Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: V. Gesakaarin on 13 Feb 2014, 02:59
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So according to the CFU article here (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_Funds_Unlimited):
"As Federation investigators began to get closer and closer to discovering the secret Caldari colonies, the six secessionist megacorporations colluded to launch a multi-pronged financial assault on Caldari Funds Unlimited."
There were only six original Megacorps that created the CEP, which means for there now to be Eight, two others had to get on the CEP later on in the existence of the State. The question for me then becomes, what are the criteria and process to have a seat on the CEP?
Is it direct sponsorship from current CEP members? Does the CBT dictate if a corporation is legally a, "Megacorporation" to become a CEP member? Something else altogether?
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I like the idea of a CP2020/Shadowrun-esque setup where the megacorps and smaller corporations within megacorps are in constant competition seeking to undermine the profits and business interests of their rivals all with the intention of either maintaining/increasing their status within the CEP or moving up to a position potentially at the expense of some less efficient competitor.
I don't think there's any lore that supports that view and I don't know how well it actually fits into any Caldari 'State First'-type groupthink. I don't put it into play or expect it of others, just a purely personal way I - as a player - like to think about it.
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There were six "secessionist megacorporations". The other two were already in existence, just not secessionist at the time. As far as recorded history goes, there have been eight - we thus have no idea what it would take it make a ninth. It is reasonable to consider it impossible.
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I ran a short story arc that was publicly posted on the IGS about this, actually. I checked with Falcon and he gave me a thumbs up to go ahead and do it (though assured me he and CCP will not validate any of it).
What I had imagined was that the CEP is actually much much larger than we tend to think it is. The Big Eight are the major decision makers, but there are also CEOs of smaller corporations present at the Panel. Not all of them will get a seat at the fancy round table, likely. Or maybe it's a speaking chamber more like the Senate or Parliament. At any rate, I imagined that assuming you fill certain criteria, you can get a seat as CEO of a State corporation - even if you're not directly under the Big Eight.
Kat's corporation "Oniseki Holdings" applied to become a valid State corporation and get a seat. Eventually they were approved, and were renamed "Oniseki Corporation", but the price she had to pay was that Katrina had to relinquish her chair as CEO and become a majority shareholder only. I figured CEP and CCP would not want a capsuleer sitting on the CEP. Of course... none of this is anything anybody has to recognize IC or OOC... but it was fun for me to do. It'a also one of the reasons you rarely see her talking about it these days, since she no longer controls it.
Anyways...
I think there may be varying levels of the CEP. There may be the primary "Big Panel" comprised of the eight CEOs of the megacorps, who get all the real power of the CEP and media attention. Then you have a "Small Panel", perhaps comprised of non-mega CEOs mega-subsidiary CEOs. Of course, the larger and more powerful one of the Big 8 is, the more influence and direct power they will have over these independents. It may be a very real political game where the battle is over how many Small Panel seats the Big Panel can control and/or influence. Think of it as top-down lobbying and bribes.
Lai Dai and CBD might be fighting over a legislative bill. Lai Dai has far more money than CBD, but CBD has more subsidiaries sitting on the Small Panel. You can imagine a bitter political war being fought between the two as CBD tries to keep its own Small CEOs voting in favor of its preferences, while Lai Dai is trying to pay them off to vote temporarily in their favor. The battle might extend further as CBD and Lai Dai both try to influence their allies and other parties to vote for them as well.
Big Panel - the Big 8 CEOs who get all the media coverage and have the real deciding power.
Small Panel - All the other independent CEOs who are likely all paid off, controlled, and juggled by the Big 8.
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Interesting, but in that case what would be the point to appoint CEO of subsidiaries to the CEP, since everything in the State is controlled by the eight megas no ? Independent corps exist ?
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There were six "secessionist megacorporations". The other two were already in existence, just not secessionist at the time. As far as recorded history goes, there have been eight - we thus have no idea what it would take it make a ninth. It is reasonable to consider it impossible.
Lai Dai and NOH don't have any evidence that they pre-existed the formation of the State. Then there's the Morning of Reasoning where it's implied that the Megacorp. leaders that didn't follow the secession were made to commit ritual suicide.
To be honest, I get the feeling that Lai Dai and NOH were probably something more like a Kaalakiota research subsidiary and SuVee entertainment division that were raised to CEP status in the attempts to get more votes/power on the CEP which probably fits into Kat's concept of there being continuous political wrangling behind the scenes.
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There were six "secessionist megacorporations". The other two were already in existence, just not secessionist at the time. As far as recorded history goes, there have been eight - we thus have no idea what it would take it make a ninth. It is reasonable to consider it impossible.
Lai Dai and NOH don't have any evidence that they pre-existed the formation of the State. Then there's the Morning of Reasoning where it's implied that the Megacorp. leaders that didn't follow the secession were made to commit ritual suicide.
To be honest, I get the feeling that Lai Dai and NOH were probably something more like a Kaalakiota research subsidiary and SuVee entertainment division that were raised to CEP status in the attempts to get more votes/power on the CEP which probably fits into Kat's concept of there being continuous political wrangling behind the scenes.
Yes, it is implied the megacorp leaders that didn't follow. Meaning, they were already megacorps and had CEOs. With something as big as the big eight, there needs to be evidence they didn't exist in order to assume two of them weren't alongside the rest. Instead, we have implications they did and no evidence they didn't.
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So which one of them is Wuxing?
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There were six "secessionist megacorporations". The other two were already in existence, just not secessionist at the time. As far as recorded history goes, there have been eight - we thus have no idea what it would take it make a ninth. It is reasonable to consider it impossible.
Lai Dai and NOH don't have any evidence that they pre-existed the formation of the State. Then there's the Morning of Reasoning where it's implied that the Megacorp. leaders that didn't follow the secession were made to commit ritual suicide.
To be honest, I get the feeling that Lai Dai and NOH were probably something more like a Kaalakiota research subsidiary and SuVee entertainment division that were raised to CEP status in the attempts to get more votes/power on the CEP which probably fits into Kat's concept of there being continuous political wrangling behind the scenes.
Yes, it is implied the megacorp leaders that didn't follow. Meaning, they were already megacorps and had CEOs. With something as big as the big eight, there needs to be evidence they didn't exist in order to assume two of them weren't alongside the rest. Instead, we have implications they did and no evidence they didn't.
Yes, and only KK, Wiyrkomi, SuVee, Hyasyoda, and Ishukone have evidence they existed prior to the formation of the State.
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You misread me. For something as fundamental as the megas, we need evidence they didn't exist prior. Absence of their mention is certainly not enough to run with the assumption that they didn't, especially with how much PF ignores several of them. A bit of PF merely mentioning that only six were secessionist at the time does not imply the other two didn't exist.
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You misread me. For something as fundamental as the megas, we need evidence they didn't exist prior. Absence of their mention is certainly not enough to run with the assumption that they didn't, especially with how much PF ignores several of them. A bit of PF merely mentioning that only six were secessionist at the time does not imply the other two didn't exist.
Think of it is this way, there were six then there eight. This means there has to be a process or criteria at least to get on the CEP. For example, what's the difference between say Perkone or Hyasyoda that one is on the CEP and one is not?
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No, there wasn't six then eight. There is no reason to assume it started with six. All the PF says is that there were six secessionist ones, not that there was six total. It was specifically talking about the secessionist ones, not all of them. If it was talking about all of them, it wouldn't have specified "secessionist". The implication is that six of the eight were secessionist, and forced the other two to follow suit. Not that it originated with six.
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Veik is arguing on the assumption (which I share) that the secessionists either left-behind or subsumed the loyalists.
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Perhaps I am forgetting some PF, but I fail to see where that assumption comes from. If I am missing something, I am all for being pointed to it. The original quote certainly does not imply that.
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No, there wasn't six then eight. There is no reason to assume it started with six. All the PF says is that there were six secessionist ones, not that there was six total. It was specifically talking about the secessionist ones, not all of them. If it was talking about all of them, it wouldn't have specified "secessionist". The implication is that six of the eight were secessionist, and forced the other two to follow suit. Not that it originated with six.
Then how could they have "forced" another two Megas by giving them a position on the CEP instead of doing what they did to the others that didn't by making their executives commit suicide and then taking over their companies? The only way that would work would be if positions on the CEP were intended to be incentive during the Morning of Reasoning.
That's still as much supposition as any other regarding how the CEP came to have Eight members, nor does it explain the process to becoming a member, nor more importantly how it maintains legitimacy, power and authority over the State.
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I absolutely agree that the PF is unclear as to how come there are eight, how they came to be the only eight, etc. But absence of explanation does not mean we must suppose extra material that does not exist, especially when it is such a huge topic as the megas. Just because they don't explicitly state there was eight does not mean there was not eight. In order for the current setup of megas to not have existed, they would need to state that was the case.
Status quo has to be the default assumption, otherwise you introduce far too much supposition than is justified. It is easy to imagine that 6 vs 2 could easily provide enough pressure to put them in line, but more importantly, we don't know how it worked. We shouldn't assume we do.
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I absolutely agree that the PF is unclear as to how come there are eight, how they came to be the only eight, etc. But absence of explanation does not mean we must suppose extra material that does not exist, especially when it is such a huge topic as the megas. Just because they don't explicitly state there was eight does not mean there was not eight. In order for the current setup of megas to not have existed, they would need to state that was the case.
Status quo has to be the default assumption, otherwise you introduce far too much supposition than is justified. It is easy to imagine that 6 vs 2 could easily provide enough pressure to put them in line, but more importantly, we don't know how it worked. We shouldn't assume we do.
No, the PF states that only six Caldari Megacorporations were part of the conspiracy to secede from the Federation. Which means that two out of the eight currently on the CEP were not involved until after the fact. That much seems rather clear to me.
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But my point is that does not imply that two did not exist, or were not megas. Merely that they were not part of the secessionist actions.
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But my point is that does not imply that two did not exist, or were not megas. Merely that they were not part of the secessionist actions.
No it doesn't, but it does open the door to discussion as to how they got on the CEP which is the point of this thread?
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Which is groovy with me. My whole issue here has been the statement that it started as six. How the eight got in there is all groovy for discussing. I was just getting bent over the "there was six, but now is eight" thing.
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Well at present the only Megacorp. that seems to have been confirmed as being involved in the secession beyond any doubt is Kaalakiota, because it appears Mathias Sobaseki was the principle architect of the secession (probably why there's a system named Sobaseki and a planet in New Caldari named Mathias).
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It could just be the Caldari evolutionary/Darwinian thing. Your corp gets to join the CEP when the other members feel they have more to gain by giving you the position than by leaving you to scheme out in the cold. You get kicked out of the CEP when kicking you out benefits the CEP corps more than keeping you in. So a corp might be relatively small or large, but what keeps them in the CEP is political clout. When the lines between citizen and employee are nonexistent, corporate political power can be much more tangible than in societies where the governments and private companies are (technically) separate.
Just saying that the whole reason the CEP corps are what they are might be simply because they bullied their way into their positions and no one's been able to knock them down yet. For all we know, corporations may have joined the CEP and fallen from favor in the interim and just haven't been mentioned. The Caldari aren't exactly ones to continue honoring ye olde auguste institutions after they've ceased to be effective.
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It could just be the Caldari evolutionary/Darwinian thing. Your corp gets to join the CEP when the other members feel they have more to gain by giving you the position than by leaving you to scheme out in the cold. You get kicked out of the CEP when kicking you out benefits the CEP corps more than keeping you in. So a corp might be relatively small or large, but what keeps them in the CEP is political clout. When the lines between citizen and employee are nonexistent, corporate political power can be much more tangible than in societies where the governments and private companies are (technically) separate.
Just saying that the whole reason the CEP corps are what they are might be simply because they bullied their way into their positions and no one's been able to knock them down yet. For all we know, corporations may have joined the CEP and fallen from favor in the interim and just haven't been mentioned. The Caldari aren't exactly ones to continue honoring ye olde auguste institutions after they've ceased to be effective.
I think the problem with the Caldari State is that it's the only faction that doesn't have any real parallels in the real world to draw any comparison to as is the case with the democracy in the Federation; feudalism/theocracy in the Empire; or tribalism in the Republic.
A total corporate society is something that only has really existed in cyberpunk/sci-fi fiction so how the State functions can be rather opaque at times. Such as the concept of political clout being part of membership on the CEP - that would imply that citizens or shareholders dictate having a seat on the CEP, then again there's the contrary view that CEP members have such an iron-grip on the domestic markets and capital in the State that it's impossible to ever get on the CEP unless you were on it from the beginning.
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Nobody answered my question though : is the State composed only of eight megas that control everything territory wise, with their subsidiaries, or are there independent corps as well ? Which would mean that some parts of the Caldari space would thus not be controlled by one of the megas, but another corp ?
If that's the case, then yeah, what prevents them to get seats in the CEP ? Possibly a lot of things, possibly none.
But if everything is always controlled by the megas, then every other corp has to be one of their subsidiaries. Which means, why would they have seats in the CEP is they are already owned by bigger megas ?
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Hi there,
I would tend to think of this as a Corporate Board with major and minor players. The majors would usually dominate (one ISK, one vote kind of board), but would not always see eye-to-eye. In some cases, smaller independent corps start throwing some small but tie-breaking weight around, perhaps gaining a lot of favour in the political horse-trading.
I know I am thinking parliament right now, about the way some small parties influence things just by existing and having a handful of seats. To do this in a democracy, you have but to register, have your loyal, extremist following and wait for the right time. (I am also thinking Meet Joe Black and secret board deals)
I believe the English word would be a King-maker?
In a corporate world, maybe a Corp would have but to register to CEP and play the Big Eight's game. Whether the right moment (and windfall) arrives sometime, it would depend on the political manoeuvring - it may last all of fifteen minutes, but played right, that one corp's vote could shape the future.
Does it make any sense?
Q
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Nobody answered my question though : is the State composed only of eight megas that control everything territory wise, with their subsidiaries, or are there independent corps as well ? Which would mean that some parts of the Caldari space would thus not be controlled by one of the megas, but another corp ?
If that's the case, then yeah, what prevents them to get seats in the CEP ? Possibly a lot of things, possibly none.
But if everything is always controlled by the megas, then every other corp has to be one of their subsidiaries. Which means, why would they have seats in the CEP is they are already owned by bigger megas ?
From my understanding the vast majority of Corporation are subsidiaries of the other Megas, but there does appear to be other independent corporations. Perkone for instance isn't a Mega but I've seen nothing to suggest it has any handling from the other Megas and the description says it predates even Gallentee contact.
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Also, prior to Heth, Quafe had a "seat" within the CEP and was a "Caldari State" Corporation.
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There are independent corporations, but their power is limited. The easy example is Constructions in TEA. It is stated that it is not a megacorp, yet KK is able to push it around very easily. My take has always been, independent but largely neutered politically.
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There are independent corporations, but their power is limited. The easy example is Constructions in TEA. It is stated that it is not a megacorp, yet KK is able to push it around very easily. My take has always been, independent but largely neutered politically.
Once upon a time, KK owned 65% of Caldari Constructions.
Had to go find a non-CCP source (http://www.eveiverse.com/npc_corporations/caldari_constructions#npc_corporations%2Fcaldari_constructions%2Finvestors) for the information since CCP has been steadily removing such reference material. :psyccp:
purple had an image showing the extent of the megas. I can't find my copy.
KK significantly owned Ytiri, Echelon Entertainment, Zero-G Research Firm, Caldari Constructions, Caldari Funds Unlimited, and Home Guard. These would have all fallen under KK's effectively direct control prior to Heth taking over Caldari Constructions, Ytiri, and KK. He may have sold off significant portions of EE, Zero-G, and the CFU to fund the war.
From my understanding the vast majority of Corporation are subsidiaries of the other Megas, but there does appear to be other independent corporations. Perkone for instance isn't a Mega but I've seen nothing to suggest it has any handling from the other Megas and the description says it predates even Gallentee contact.
Perkone (http://www.eveiverse.com/npc_corporations/perkone#npc_corporations%2Fperkone%2Finvestors) falls firmly within the Hyasyoda (65%) sphere of influence and Wiyrkomi (20%) to a lesser degree. Both Hyasyoda and Wiyrkomi have strong ties to original founding families (iirc)
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I just recall TEA stating that Constructions was not a megacorp and essentially meaningless, a couple of times. Hopefully a lot of these fuzzy areas will be cleared up a little with Source, regarding CEP and such. The PF already strongly implies that as far as control and politics goes, nothing is remotely relevant compared to the megas.
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Ah, so that's another case where I get all confused because PF has been completely ninja-ed by CCP. I may be too old.
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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g86ChfHHxbqZyreG_GES8MR5sCyLLKqU5o6TJdjLVCo/edit?usp=sharing
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Where did all of that info original come from?
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Probably from the old corp descriptions and early pages for each on the main site where all their shareholders and CEOs were listed.
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Ah, that makes sense. This the kind of randomness and CCP PF morphing that I hope will be somewhat fixed with Source. There are so many areas that need definitive stances.
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It is not so much that they will fix it, as they have already said that they are fixing it for the past years already while it is actually not fixing, but plain deletion of old stuff to replace it with new contradictory stuff.
I don't except it to change anytime soon, which is somehow like hiding embarrassing bits under the carpet/doormat.
:skepticism:
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It is not so much that they will fix it, as they have already said that they are fixing it for the past years already while it is actually not fixing, but plain deletion of old stuff to replace it with new contradictory stuff.
There is also the problem of having in-game elements which are not updated when contradictory stuff is published via the web. The lag between these things can be horrendous unless it is an expansion feature being updated.
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I know this is sort of jumping in when the thread is already done, but Wiyrkomi is specifically said to have joined the CEP post-secession, at least:
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Tyunaul_Seituoda
In 23192 AD, Wiyrkomi's importance to the financial and military backbone of the Caldari State made it impossible for the Chief Executive Panel to continue to shut the company out of a direct role in leadership. While Seituoda had been pushing for his company's admission to the CEP since the mid 23170s and had generally found a welcome reception from Kaalakiota and Lai Dai, the other megacorporations had remained skeptical. After a particularly devastating campaign by the Federation in the Citadel, however, Sukuuvestaa was forced to come to the State and Region Bank for help; Seituoda's price was a seat on the CEP.
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Nice find, Svetlana. :D
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To add a bit more info on the timelmine for the 2 additional megas joining; this chronicle mentions the CEP consists of 8 megacorps after the first Gallente-Caldari war was over (Masks of Authority (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Masks_of_Authority_(Chronicle))) This means the two additional ones probably joined between the seccession & the end of the war, so it's highly likely the 2 that joined later already existed in some form, but weren't part of the seccession for some reason.
It also gives a glimpse on the rise of the 8 megacorp security firms & some of the friction between megas (espeically between SuVee & KK)