Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Ember Vykos on 04 Mar 2014, 22:35
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CONCORD is still investigating under tight security. After days of exhaustive investigation, they have only determined that the stargate failed to double check the safety status of the jump-requesting ship, and spun the miniature wormhole around the vessel anyways. Whether by stroke of bad luck, or some as yet unknown cause of conflicting technologies.... Simca Develon never emerged from the other side of that stargate.
This makes me do this :bash:
I want to bring Simca back. I know you've heard it before, but this time tis actually gonna happen. I passed the class I need to graduate last semester so not as much pressure and in my last one. My problem with this is that I want the time to go by for Simca and for her ship, but I don't know what to call the space she ends up in. I'm thinking null space, but wanted to poke everyone's brain to see if there's any PF about it. Saede mentioned a chron, but I couldn't find it or I may be blind lol. Anyway thanks in advance for any input. See you guys soon™
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http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/the-peralles-incident/
This is the chronicle. Simca disappeared out in nullsec, so presumably she would reappear in nullsec. If you mean what sort of space she was in-between?
Well, I had always assumed that time wouldn't have passed at all for her, and she simply would have "lost" that year. It would feel like time travel for her.
If she actually went somewhere and spent that year DOING things in that somewhere, then I guess it is up to you for what to do with that. Maybe hell, maybe an alternate dimension, maybe dreamland. I dunno. There's no PF precedent set for that.
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Thanks Kat. I meant more where she ended up after she jumped. Should have been more specific on that.
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Maybe she didn't actually go anywhere. Maybe she's just still been 'in transit'.
The handful of SG-1 episodes involving solar flares come to mind.
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Yes. So basically, she comes out on the other side of the same stargate she jumped into. She starts in System A, and uses the stargate to jump to System B. ... one year later, she finally pops up in local in System B. She didn't go anywhere else. It simply took her 365 days of lag to finally load local chat for system B!
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Her ship tumbles out of a nullsec stargate lightyears from where she went in, twisted and on fire, half of her ship is vented to space. But that isn't all, because time definitely was not at a standstill for Simca Devalon in that dark space between, oh no, she remembers it. Have her and her crew become slaves to the creeping madness (http://eve.klaki.net/ec/fiction/c1_endless_history.php) that lurks in the dark between stargates? Have they seen the monsters that lurk in the between space? Do they try to raise alarm to something moving unseen (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4813.msg77321#msg77321) in the darkness? Are they sane at all? So much interesting RP to be had there.
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Jumped all the way out to the Delta quadrant and will require Borg conduits to return home.
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Her ship tumbles out of a nullsec stargate lightyears from where she went in, twisted and on fire, half of her ship is vented to space. But that isn't all, because time definitely was not at a standstill for Simca Devalon in that dark space between, oh no, she remembers it. Have her and her crew become slaves to the creeping madness (http://eve.klaki.net/ec/fiction/c1_endless_history.php) that lurks in the dark between stargates? Have they seen the monsters that lurk in the between space? Do they try to raise alarm to something moving unseen (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4813.msg77321#msg77321) in the darkness? Are they sane at all? So much interesting RP to be had there.
Saede... :cube:
Don't want to spoil anything but I've been thinking along these lines since I first thought of bringing Simca back. Thanks for the links those help a lot.
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I love the whole 'madness between the stars' thing. Its a storyline I'm playing with a bit on an alt, and Saede believes in all sorts of 'gates are bad' conspiracies, which is why she rather dislikes using stargates. I've got it tied to the whole 'something between life and death' thing, and if you want to get me involved in said RP arc, I'd love you long time.
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AND WITH A SINGLE BOUND, SHE WAS FREE
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Well this is certainly going to be interesting...
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shadowy corporate figure re-animates Simca using discarded skin cells from some years ago, and a suitable personality template, with a few extra pseudo-memories loaded on as well.
And built a suitable ship, and artificially aged it, so that it looks exactly as if Simca has emerged.
But who would do such a thing? and Why ?
The FIO? , the Caldari Navy Secret Service ? , the Jovians ? , I-RED's secret psych-warfare black ops secret division that is so secret that even they aren't sure if they exist ?
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I am keen on hearing more of this.
The suggested instance of time having not passed by for her would create massively good RP opportunities for you and Kat, with Kat having moved on and all that good jazz. As to where she'd reappear, have her emerge in a hole of worms at nearby mystery monolith/device and be like "wat".
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Well, it seems that you already made up your mind but I highly prefer Louella's version since it doesn't imply the lost Simca to come back to space. I feel that doing so greatly diminishes the chronicle that has been taken as an inspiration and removes all the mystery that makes it great.
While I like Istvaan idea on what lies in between, actually making it come alive is totally counter productive and ruins everything for me. I would tell him or anyone else the same thing. It's threading into godmodding territory and inventing stuff that directly impacts the laws of the universe itself.
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what was that film, with the guy who was a sleeper agent, but may not know it. Was it the Manchurian Candidate ?
Or one of those Outer Limits episodes or something.
same setup. As far as Simulated Simca knows, she is Simca, and that "Some Time" has passed, with confusing memories of the intervening time. Is she really Simca ?
A brain in a jar in Plato's Cave. Or something.
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Well this is certainly going to be interesting...
I hope so.
Well, it seems that you already made up your mind but I highly prefer Louella's version since it doesn't imply the lost Simca to come back to space. I feel that doing so greatly diminishes the chronicle that has been taken as an inspiration and removes all the mystery that makes it great.
While I like Istvaan idea on what lies in between, actually making it come alive is totally counter productive and ruins everything for me. I would tell him or anyone else the same thing. It's threading into godmodding territory and inventing stuff that directly impacts the laws of the universe itself.
Minds not completely made up just yet, but pretty close. I do see your point about the chron, but I'm missing it on the godmodding bit.
Edit: I will say this though Simca is not gonna be hearing voices.
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This is my reaction to Simca coming back:
(http://i.imgur.com/lH71hp5.gif)
Yes that is a cheeto. Animated.
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Well this is certainly going to be interesting...
I hope so.
Well, it seems that you already made up your mind but I highly prefer Louella's version since it doesn't imply the lost Simca to come back to space. I feel that doing so greatly diminishes the chronicle that has been taken as an inspiration and removes all the mystery that makes it great.
While I like Istvaan idea on what lies in between, actually making it come alive is totally counter productive and ruins everything for me. I would tell him or anyone else the same thing. It's threading into godmodding territory and inventing stuff that directly impacts the laws of the universe itself.
Minds not completely made up just yet, but pretty close. I do see your point about the chron, but I'm missing it on the godmodding bit.
Edit: I will say this though Simca is not gonna be hearing voices.
Well, that it tells people how the laws of the Eve universe works in that specific case, which was left as a big unknown in PF.
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Avoiding going near anything that might touch on something that could be included in EVE Source (specifically in this case, stargate SCIENCE! stuff) is the main reason I suggested just having her 'appear' on the other side of the gate a year later than she was supposed to, with no recollection of it.
It provides for plenty of (imo) interesting drama and character development - I mean, look how much Simca's missed since she's been gone, and not just in people who used to be very close to her. All of the mess around Caldari Prime. Heth's downfall. Midular's assassination and the Colelie incident. The reformation of the Tribal Assembly. There's a lot of big stuff she's missed out on - not just things that were going on in what would have been her personal life.
There's just so much to work with right there that it seems almost like a self-inflicted wound to add more onto the plate to deal with.
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Avoiding going near anything that might touch on something that could be included in EVE Source (specifically in this case, stargate SCIENCE! stuff) is the main reason I suggested just having her 'appear' on the other side of the gate a year later than she was supposed to, with no recollection of it.
It still does, it tells that it is possible to begin with.
Otherwise yes, there is plenty of drama and good stuff to be had, but I don't see how it necessarily has to involve that kind of stuff as an excuse.
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It still does, it tells that it is possible to begin with.
Otherwise yes, there is plenty of drama and good stuff to be had, but I don't see how it necessarily has to involve that kind of stuff as an excuse.
It's not like she's gonna show up in The Summit screaming OH MAH GAAWWD THERE'S SHIT BETWEEN THE GATES AND THEY WANT US DEDZ!!!!! /o\ I would like to think I'm a better RPer than that, but there will be elements of that in her character now just because I do want to explore it a bit based on some of the stuff I've read from Istvaan. If it's gonna burst your immersion bubble well I'm sorry you feel that way, but I like it and the possibilities it presents for Simcas character.
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Honestly, idfc what happens as long as Simca and Kat don't become enemies or some shit.
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It still does, it tells that it is possible to begin with.
Otherwise yes, there is plenty of drama and good stuff to be had, but I don't see how it necessarily has to involve that kind of stuff as an excuse.
It's not like she's gonna show up in The Summit screaming OH MAH GAAWWD THERE'S SHIT BETWEEN THE GATES AND THEY WANT US DEDZ!!!!! /o\ I would like to think I'm a better RPer than that, but there will be elements of that in her character now just because I do want to explore it a bit based on some of the stuff I've read from Istvaan. If it's gonna burst your immersion bubble well I'm sorry you feel that way, but I like it and the possibilities it presents for Simcas character.
Ok then. I'm used to it on every MMO. People want to have their fun no matter what and play in community at the same time. After all we pay for it, right.
I have seen every time people saying "Thanks for your feedback but my mind was already made up" or "I was actually only expecting positive feedback", but never have I seen the contrary "That's good points, I'll try to work around that".
Don't take it wrong but when i'm being basically told "I don't care if I break your immersion bubble" it tends to be highly irritating as it is rather rude.
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Don't take it wrong but when i'm being basically told "I don't care if I break your immersion bubble" it tends to be highly irritating as it is rather rude.
Going to pop your bubble. Unicorns, cotton candy jump drives, the whole shabang.
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Ok then. I'm used to it on every MMO. People want to have their fun no matter what and play in community at the same time. After all we pay for it, right.
Not sure why you seem to want to play the victim here but whatevs. v0v
I have seen every time people saying "Thanks for your feedback but my mind was already made up" or "I was actually only expecting positive feedback", but never have I seen the contrary "That's good points, I'll try to work around that".
I did thank everyone in advance in the OP, and plan on thanking everyone again when this thread closes. I can get just as much from negative feedback as I can positive so that doesn't really matter to me. I do see your points and they are valid, but while I may not work around the big issue you have with the gate chron I do plan on being very subtle with anything that may come from it, so if you don't want to hear about it or see it you probably wont. Hope that helps.
Don't take it wrong but when i'm being basically told "I don't care if I break your immersion bubble" it tends to be highly irritating as it is rather rude.
Well I am pretty rude then I guess. I don't like doing it, but you're right I don't really give two shits either. With one exception that I had to put up with I just ignored things that broke my immersion. This is a game after all and while I like things to make sense I'm not gonna give someone hell for bending the rules a bit in the name of fun and enjoyment. Like you said everyone pays their 15 bucks.
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Don't take it wrong but when i'm being basically told "I don't care if I break your immersion bubble" it tends to be highly irritating as it is rather rude.
Your immersion is your own business, asking people to not RP something they want for the sake of your immersion is just as rude.
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Don't take it wrong but when i'm being basically told "I don't care if I break your immersion bubble" it tends to be highly irritating as it is rather rude.
Your immersion is your own business, asking people to not RP something they want for the sake of your immersion is just as rude.
This, essentially. I mean, this is why RP corps even exist - to facilitate your immersion/interests with others that share them. To expect that to go beyond to everyone in an MMO is just silly. Can it be annoying when people ignore PF or start being unreasonable? Sure, but they have every right to play how they wish. If you don't like it, don't RP with them.
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Well Lyn if you want to get upset at people, get upset at me too. I'm the one who wrote Misjump for Simca's year long break/quit from EVE, and I'm the reason he has to follow the precedent set on his return.
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Its an awesome precedent though.
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Don't take it wrong but when i'm being basically told "I don't care if I break your immersion bubble" it tends to be highly irritating as it is rather rude.
Your immersion is your own business, asking people to not RP something they want for the sake of your immersion is just as rude.
Well that's where I disagree then. My own view on the matter is that you are not playing alone but with other people, and the excuse "I do what I want because I pay for it" is just like saying "I can sit on any rule because I pay for it and want to have my fun that way". My freedom ends where someone else's begins and all that.
Don't take it wrong but when i'm being basically told "I don't care if I break your immersion bubble" it tends to be highly irritating as it is rather rude.
Your immersion is your own business, asking people to not RP something they want for the sake of your immersion is just as rude.
This, essentially. I mean, this is why RP corps even exist - to facilitate your immersion/interests with others that share them. To expect that to go beyond to everyone in an MMO is just silly. Can it be annoying when people ignore PF or start being unreasonable? Sure, but they have every right to play how they wish. If you don't like it, don't RP with them.
That would work in any other MMO, but not in Eve. Every one plays in the same scenery, with the same actions and consequences, and the same RP. You can't ignore what other people do in Eve, or it's the door open to solipsism everywhere.
Well Lyn if you want to get upset at people, get upset at me too. I'm the one who wrote Misjump for Simca's year long break/quit from EVE, and I'm the reason he has to follow the precedent set on his return.
Misjump was an awesome idea.
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You can't ignore what other people do in Eve, or it's the door open to solipsism everywhere.
Eve absolutely is solipsism everywhere.
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Well I never had that issue before and it seems these days that it has become a true problem in itself. It's like putting more and more people of a specific channel into your own block list : the end result makes less and less sense overall. It's just silly.
Anyway, have fun I guess. =)
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I have created a flow chart to help in the decision process.
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That's a Brilliant chart Lou
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Well I never had that issue before and it seems these days that it has become a true problem in itself. It's like putting more and more people of a specific channel into your own block list : the end result makes less and less sense overall. It's just silly.
Anyway, have fun I guess. =)
This notion is put under the perpetual concept of "why isn't there a lot of public RP anymore?". There are many reasons, but what we are talking about is one of them. Eve RP is about solipsism. The OOC drama we all see is caused by solipsism. The absurd factional splitting is because of solipsism. People writing off anything that happens in Summit or IGS is solipsism. Half of #bittervet is caused by solipsism.
Edit: Also, this obviously isn't unique to Eve RP. It is a common theme for roleplaying anywhere. People care about their characters, their stories. Everyone else is essentially treated as NPCs in their narrative. But when you have this happen to a nearly pandemic extent, people begin retreating with friends (or retreat altogether) into their own channels/pms, away from the public view in order to avoid it all. So now they have their own space, their own conversation, their own arcs, that can't be touched by that annoying solipsism of everyone else. Because, obviously, it is ruining their RP.
Pattern?
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Well I never had that issue before and it seems these days that it has become a true problem in itself. It's like putting more and more people of a specific channel into your own block list : the end result makes less and less sense overall. It's just silly.
Anyway, have fun I guess. =)
This notion is put under the perpetual concept of "why isn't there a lot of public RP anymore?". There are many reasons, but what we are talking about is one of them. Eve RP is about solipsism. The OOC drama we all see is caused by solipsism. The absurd factional splitting is because of solipsism. People writing off anything that happens in Summit or IGS is solipsism. Half of #bittervet is caused by solipsism.
Edit: Also, this obviously isn't unique to Eve RP. It is a common theme for roleplaying anywhere. People care about their characters, their stories. Everyone else is essentially treated as NPCs in their narrative. But when you have this happen to a nearly pandemic extent, people begin retreating with friends (or retreat altogether) into their own channels/pms, away from the public view in order to avoid it all. So now they have their own space, their own conversation, their own arcs, that can't be touched by that annoying solipsism of everyone else. Because, obviously, it is ruining their RP.
Pattern?
One day you accept that public RP is the province of Kafkian absurdity, cultivate a necessary degree of apathy towards it, and seek the refuge of sanity with people you enjoy interacting with.
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One day you accept that public RP is the province of Kafkian absurdity, cultivate a necessary degree of apathy towards it, and seek the refuge of sanity with people you enjoy interacting with.
If this shit was Kafkaesque, I don't think anyone would ever leave.
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One day you accept that public RP is the province of Kafkian absurdity, cultivate a necessary degree of apathy towards it, and seek the refuge of sanity with people you enjoy interacting with.
If this shit was Kafkaesque, I don't think anyone would ever leave.
Isn't that why we're all still here?
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Isn't that why we're all still here?
I'm sticking with sheer solipsism. Solipsism binds us together.
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Or the hope that things will somehow change for the better; without realizing things are always as they have been, and always will be.
The solipsist argument does work, not only with roleplayers only caring about their own characters and narratives, but also because of the fact that the majority of the playerbase in Eve probably disregards anything said either in the summit or on the IGS. As such, having your own character do much the same changes nothing at all in the grand scheme of things.
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I don't necessarily think the solipsism is inherently bad, it just comes with its own baggage to deal with. Lack of public arcs being the primary baggage to deal with. The challenge is to interweave the solipsistic tendencies into a greater whole.
Also, "Solipsism binds us together" is a DFW line. Good stuff, that.
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Well I'm sure those interested in public arcs and RP will continue to go on and do that. I tried that last year for the first six months, and no longer bother with it now. It's not that I've never been open to people wanting to interject themselves into my non-existent character narrative, but having reached the limits of asking myself, "Dear God, what is all this derps right here," With the interactions that developed.
Once having reached that limit, I at first felt a degree of frustration, then accepted it as just the way things are. As such these days I find it far more enjoyable to live behind a metaphorical iron curtain of my own creation where I don't have to care what anyone else character is doing and they don't have to care about what mine are doing. It's an status quo I'm coming to enjoy given the alternatives, and an effective QA tool of sorts to ensure that any interactions I do participate in are with those players and characters that won't shit me immensely.
Frankly, I'm having more fun right now playing the game, exploring the lore, and writing a piece of fiction here and there than I ever did trying to roleplay and interact in public - which I use only now if I feel the need to act out a shift in character persona or opinion and agenda setting, then leave it at that.
I don't feel I'm alone in having gone this route, and as far as I can see unless you come within the area of an established RP social circle, clique, or group that's retreated into private channels and networks then I guess there's the only option of all the characters in one man corps, NPC corps, and isolated individuals that want to act out their solipsist fantasies in public.
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Obviously, if someone enjoys how they play there is no reason to change. #morepower
That being said, for those that wish they had a group of friends to regularly channel RP/arc with, it is obviously impossible to find unless they are dedicated in their random interactions until they find those people. I personally find it enjoyable once you find that, and I also think it is worthwhile to help others find it. But if someone isn't interested in channel RP in the first place, then obviously none of this will matter or be worthwhile. Derp is relative. For those that find the concept of channel RP to be kind of derpy in and of itself, they will find derp around every corner.
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I find it can be less about the channels themselves and more the characters in them. The question for me is whether I can be bothered to feel like having to wade through the septic tank of the same, rehashed arguments, attempts at contrived shock and attention grabs, and whatever inane ooc/ic drama has developed in public channels.
It's always going to be a balance between tolerance of such, and the actual objective of networking with people and characters that appear worthwhile, for myself at least.
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It just comes down to the range of "characters worthwhile" or interactions worthwhile. If that is very narrow, then the majority of channel stuff and actual character involvement isn't going to be worth it for someone. Which then makes it so their character has a difficult time meeting any new "worthwhile" characters, then doesn't have any interactions because of it, and then essentially no longer RPs except with a very narrow group of people they already know - if they have that. If they don't, then RP dies altogether for the player.
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Sounds about right. RP interactions are always going to be subjective, and how people execute their character concepts varies just as much as the preferences of the people receiving it.
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Agreed. Which is why it seems to me that those with the most narrow range of interactions deemed worthwhile are the ones that fall out of RP the fastest, the hardest, or the most bitterly.
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If all you have is tenuous public interactions, probably.
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Well I never had that issue before and it seems these days that it has become a true problem in itself. It's like putting more and more people of a specific channel into your own block list : the end result makes less and less sense overall. It's just silly.
Anyway, have fun I guess. =)
This notion is put under the perpetual concept of "why isn't there a lot of public RP anymore?". There are many reasons, but what we are talking about is one of them. Eve RP is about solipsism. The OOC drama we all see is caused by solipsism. The absurd factional splitting is because of solipsism. People writing off anything that happens in Summit or IGS is solipsism. Half of #bittervet is caused by solipsism.
Edit: Also, this obviously isn't unique to Eve RP. It is a common theme for roleplaying anywhere. People care about their characters, their stories. Everyone else is essentially treated as NPCs in their narrative. But when you have this happen to a nearly pandemic extent, people begin retreating with friends (or retreat altogether) into their own channels/pms, away from the public view in order to avoid it all. So now they have their own space, their own conversation, their own arcs, that can't be touched by that annoying solipsism of everyone else. Because, obviously, it is ruining their RP.
Pattern?
Yes, pattern. Eve RP has changed, and not for the better.
There is no glory in basking into solipsism. It just makes you more schizophrenic. It's toxic.
A community that doesn't respect its own PF/lore/canon is doomed to that disease, no matter what. If everyone respects it, there is no reason for it to happen. Like in any roleplay game community, be it MMO or tabletop, as long as people keep being selfish and do whatever they want without any consideration for the community itself, it generates issues.
It's also a more general hint to a societal fact IRL caused by overdone liberalism/libertarianism where people come more and more not to give two shits about rules and decency. "I pay so I do whatever I like", "I don't give two shits about other players, I just care for my own self", and the likes, are a direct mirror to that syndrome. Very gallente in itself, incidentally.
That's anarchy instead of synergy in a nutshell.
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Yes, pattern. Eve RP has changed, and not for the better.
There is no glory in basking into solipsism. It just makes you more schizophrenic. It's toxic.
A community that doesn't respect its own PF/lore/canon is doomed to that disease, no matter what. If everyone respects it, there is no reason for it to happen. Like in any roleplay game community, be it MMO or tabletop, as long as people keep being selfish and do whatever they want without any consideration for the community itself, it generates issues.
It's also a more general hint to a societal fact IRL caused by overdone liberalism/libertarianism where people come more and more not to give two shits about rules and decency. "I pay so I do whatever I like", "I don't give two shits about other players, I just care for my own self", and the likes, are a direct mirror to that syndrome. Very gallente in itself, incidentally.
That's anarchy instead of synergy in a nutshell.
I don't think you can build RP without a degree of consensus and rapport between its participants. In the past, the RP community was rather small and niche and while there were contentious discussions, it was small enough to at least provide a framework for some sort of honest discussion because in many ways everyone knew, or knew of each other by a few degrees of separation.
What's changed I think is that those people actually interested in participating in an RP framework based on consensus and rapport have withdrawn into their own small groups purely out of the self-interest of being in an environment where they can enjoy character interactions in an environment with people they get along with. This has created the effect that public RP tends to be just the never-ending dramas of people wanting everything their own way, have the attention upon them, that it just becomes like a stage play where everyone is just delivering their own lines at the same time and all you get is white noise, not content or meaning.
So yes, perhaps no one really gives a shit anymore: either because they care only for their own characters and narratives; or because they don't care for the people that behave that way.
And that to me is the present status quo, that I doubt will change.
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Yes, pattern. Eve RP has changed, and not for the better.
There is no glory in basking into solipsism. It just makes you more schizophrenic. It's toxic.
A community that doesn't respect its own PF/lore/canon is doomed to that disease, no matter what. If everyone respects it, there is no reason for it to happen. Like in any roleplay game community, be it MMO or tabletop, as long as people keep being selfish and do whatever they want without any consideration for the community itself, it generates issues.
It's also a more general hint to a societal fact IRL caused by overdone liberalism/libertarianism where people come more and more not to give two shits about rules and decency. "I pay so I do whatever I like", "I don't give two shits about other players, I just care for my own self", and the likes, are a direct mirror to that syndrome. Very gallente in itself, incidentally.
That's anarchy instead of synergy in a nutshell.
I think you are missing part of my point, here. This bitterness about how others act in public that you and Veik are both mentioning, though from different perspectives, is part of what I am referring to as the solipsistic problem. The community no longer consists of people that roleplay exactly the way you want, with characters you want them to - thus everyone is either derpy or rude?
Bitterness and self-righteous cynicism is no less solipsistic than those who are being "rude" or committing nothing but "tenuous public interactions". There is a glass house here and you two folks are whipping rocks all over the damned place.
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I don't understand. :ugh:
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A community that doesn't respect its own PF/lore/canon is doomed to that disease, no matter what. If everyone respects it, there is no reason for it to happen. Like in any roleplay game community, be it MMO or tabletop, as long as people keep being selfish and do whatever they want without any consideration for the community itself, it generates issues.
How can a community respect PF/lore/canon, if it's conflicting with itself at every edge and end? There is, for example, PF giving poets and poetics in Amarr society a really big value in cultural activities, with poets being able to acquire near-saint status. Now, in the EVE sourcebook, it is stated that almost all arts that aren't visual are highly discuraged by the Amarrian establishment and that rephrasing the message of Scripture (like in religious poetry of the kind that had previously been held so high) would be considered almost scriledge in Amarr. What now is true, what is the PF one should roll with? Is the spaceship captain who began as court poet suddenly an ex-amost-heretic, when he would earlier by PF have been on a path that glorified God like no other?
To me this example sounds like someone getting the 'good idea' of taking the taboo on imagery the Islam has and turning it 'around' for the Amarr: A taboo on written word deviating from Scripture. That this doesn't make sense at all, given previous PF interested no one.
And there are several such instances and with every passing year they are generated manyfold, as the canon writers of CCP apparently have less and less an idea what already exists in terms of PF. No wonder with all the back and forth in that department, really.
Of course, that is also true in regard to slavery, the role of race and racism and many other central things within the Empire, which especially suffer from not being well defined, but being stuck in loads of PF paradoxes, because they are emotionally charged.
I've not followed the PF of other factions as much, but I think this isn't something merely found with the Amarr.
So, instead of fighting all the time a senseless war aboutwhich PF is to be taken seriously, most people in RP - especially those in there for some time - prefer to play in circles that share a consens on such things which are only more confused by referring back to PF.
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A community that doesn't respect its own PF/lore/canon is doomed to that disease, no matter what. If everyone respects it, there is no reason for it to happen. Like in any roleplay game community, be it MMO or tabletop, as long as people keep being selfish and do whatever they want without any consideration for the community itself, it generates issues.
How can a community respect PF/lore/canon, if it's conflicting with itself at every edge and end? There is, for example, PF giving poets and poetics in Amarr society a really big value in cultural activities, with poets being able to acquire near-saint status. Now, in the EVE sourcebook, it is stated that almost all arts that aren't visual are highly discuraged by the Amarrian establishment and that rephrasing the message of Scripture (like in religious poetry of the kind that had previously been held so high) would be considered almost scriledge in Amarr. What now is true, what is the PF one should roll with? Is the spaceship captain who began as court poet suddenly an ex-amost-heretic, when he would earlier by PF have been on a path that glorified God like no other?
To me this example sounds like someone getting the good idea of taking the taboo on imagery the Islam has and turning it 'around' for the Amarr: A taboo on written word deviating from Scripture. That this doesn't make sense at all, given previous PF interested no one.
And there are several such instances and with every passing year they are generated manyfold, as the canon writers of CCP apparently have less and less an idea what already exists in terms of PF. No wonder with all the back and forth in that department, really.
Of course, that is also true in regard to slavery, the role of race and racism and many other central things within the Empire, which especially suffer from not being well defined, but being stuck in loads of PF paradoxes, because they are emotionally charged.
I've not followed the PF of other factions as much, but I think this isn't something merely found with the Amarr.
So, instead of fighting all the time a senseless war aboutwhich PF is to be taken seriously, most people in RP - especially those in there for some time - prefer to play in circles that share a consens on such things which are only more confused by referring back to PF.
It was my impression that this was part of the point of Source - hence the title. Recognition of their past incongruity and releasing the definitive.
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I don't see where it is stating that it should be considered to overrule previous PF. Also, in the case of Poetry/visual arts, there was perviously no problem at all. They simply ignored what was previously established. Also, it's not even developed by the EVE (and Dust) team(s), but has been done by Dark Horse Comics.
So, if it is to be considered the definitive source, then they changed Amarr from a quite faceted, well rounded faction away in the direction that TonyG was tugging already - and with which they supposedly wanted to break: An fascist Empire merely based on Racism with some religious veneer.
And that is in contrast to the recent, in part quite good and with an overall high quality written, articles on the EVElopedia. And that's actually where the definitve words on PF should be found, imho. I pay monthly so I can expect not to have to buy another book to get the definite stance on what PF says. And else getting information that is diametrically opposed to what should be taken to be definite.
Source is a money making sceme, really, and that is fine with me, if they would do their job and look after making the PF consistent and coherent, not changing it nedlessly and sticked to the other usual quality standards.
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Agreed. Which is why it seems to me that those with the most narrow range of interactions deemed worthwhile are the ones that fall out of RP the fastest, the hardest, or the most bitterly.
Guilty as charged, with all my RP characters, though I'd like to think there's no bitterness on my part.
Part of my issue is with developing characters as persons, I think. As persons with hobbies, interests, and passions (varying levels of motivation to pursue information and experience), these characters would be living lives which in fundamental ways parallel our own mundane activities. We have limited scopes of available or desirable social interactions based on these factors and things like morals, political ideals and so forth. So to portray a believable person, there's a huge swath of potential interactions which I would avoid, which is how I try to portray these characters. If it happens that most of the time most public discourse is on topics within that swath... well, to take part is to break the integrity of the character.
The trick I guess is in learning to develop better characters, and maybe place less emphasis on persons. Somewhere between 'believable person' and 'Joe Q. Everyman' there is a character that can span the breadth of public interactions and still be believable. I'm just not good enough of a player to have found that yet.
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A community that doesn't respect its own PF/lore/canon is doomed to that disease, no matter what. If everyone respects it, there is no reason for it to happen. Like in any roleplay game community, be it MMO or tabletop, as long as people keep being selfish and do whatever they want without any consideration for the community itself, it generates issues.
It's also a more general hint to a societal fact IRL caused by overdone liberalism/libertarianism where people come more and more not to give two shits about rules and decency. "I pay so I do whatever I like", "I don't give two shits about other players, I just care for my own self", and the likes, are a direct mirror to that syndrome. Very gallente in itself, incidentally.
I think you misunderstood me when I said I didn't give two shits. I do actually care about other players. What I don't care about is what people think of my character. By that I mean that if my character is believable then what's the problem? I take great pains to make my characters fit into the lore of EVE and yet still be somewhat unique in their own right. If you don't like that or think I'm being selfish for it then you might have more important issues besides what I do with my characters.
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I have created a flow chart to help in the decision process.
:cube: all my :cube:
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I don't see where it is stating that it should be considered to overrule previous PF. Also, in the case of Poetry/visual arts, there was perviously no problem at all. They simply ignored what was previously established. Also, it's not even developed by the EVE (and Dust) team(s), but has been done by Dark Horse Comics.
So, if it is to be considered the definitive source, then they changed Amarr from a quite faceted, well rounded faction away in the direction that TonyG was tugging already - and with which they supposedly wanted to break: An fascist Empire merely based on Racism with some religious veneer.
And that is in contrast to the recent, in part quite good and with an overall high quality written, articles on the EVElopedia. And that's actually where the definitve words on PF should be found, imho. I pay monthly so I can expect not to have to buy another book to get the definite stance on what PF says. And else getting information that is diametrically opposed to what should be taken to be definite.
Source is a money making sceme, really, and that is fine with me, if they would do their job and look after making the PF consistent and coherent, not changing it nedlessly and sticked to the other usual quality standards.
First of all: Sorry... Is early, and Im mobil. So this will have alot of misspellings and errors. I will later put my thoughts better out.
Totally agree Mithra. In all points. Sadly I got stuck on the chart before and had not read any further (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5787.msg95788#new).... but really It was like you said. I would even add more. EDUCATION. One of the prime things for Amarrians. See here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Races_and_bloodlines#Amarr
The Amarrians rule a vast Empire, the largest and oldest of the four empires. Ruled by a mighty Empress, this vast theocratic society is supported by a broad foundation of Minmatar slave labor. Amarrian citizens tend to be highly educated and fervent individuals, and as a culture adheres to the basic tenet that what others call slavery is in fact one step on a spiritual path towards fully embracing their faith. As a result, the Empire remains the most stable and militarily powerful nation-state in New Eden, despite several setbacks in recent history.
I think, the guys of Dark Horse just looked brush over the wiki and copy past some stuff (see early pages). As for "new" content, I think they took a big step in the direction of "the name which shalt not be be said." They mention a deep split in education, which isnt mention before. Which is a little bit off. Let me explain why.
It would also make not much sense in the way that education is a tool for assimilation of larger groups (free and enslave. Not just slaves, also commeners, and holders, etc... every imperial). Or some would argue is a tool for "gleichmacherei". And I mean "gleichmacherei" in a best sence: homogenisation of culture, which can be best describe as an "egalitariansation of thinking". What I mean with that? :P Seriphyn Inhonores made ones a nice chart and thread about New Edens culture, in this chart and thread he came to the conclusion that the Empire is the most "one diminsional in culture wise", the most HOMOGENOUS and the Fed the most pluralistic ones. And I have to agree: (See here (http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1250226#post1250226)). Which means there is a force which not just binds this unity reactivity (Religion).... No, not just that, not just reactive.*** There is also a force which reacts active. Which is education. Which ALSO not just enforces unity towards slaves (the un-assimilated group), it enforces unity towards EVERYONE (even pod pilots).
Also here I will say... that I thought it was one of the points of signs of faith (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Signs_of_Faith_(Chronicle)), next to the Khanid symbol and meaning; that the kids in the SCHOOL are minmatar/ammatar. Which shows this education towards a understand of the "amarrian way". Therefore giving the empire a tool to "standardise" Ideas and Ideals (otherwise we would see a larger fragmentation/fractionization of CULTURE and/or RELIGION). By taking it away, they take away a Idea which I had in mind how amarrian society can achieve such a unity. :( Still Im happy to roll with everything they (CCP) come up with (I still have to go more in the mood that EVE is a space opera. :cry:).
Edit:*** About: Reactive and active. Reactive in like.... that religion (Theology Council, moral police and hunter of heretics, etc... (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Theology_Council_%28NPC_corporation%29)) enforces unity after a subculture (minor cult, heretic cult, etc..) is form. Active means that unity is enforce even BEFORE such an subculture/derailment takes place. For me was education this force which tackles the root of dis-unity, which takes place before the forming. As for reactive, it takes place after dis-unity already happened. But as I said, Im happy to roll with anything. :D
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I don't see where it is stating that it should be considered to overrule previous PF. Also, in the case of Poetry/visual arts, there was perviously no problem at all. They simply ignored what was previously established. Also, it's not even developed by the EVE (and Dust) team(s), but has been done by Dark Horse Comics.
Dark Horse is the publisher, Source was worked on by the EVE and DUST teams. It's what Falcon, Eterne and co have been working on for the last year.
Also, it does overrule previous PF where there are contradictions. This has been said a few times by Falcon.
EVE: Source is intended to be the basic "bible" for prime fiction going forward.
There's a lot of new stuff in there, a few minor changes and some clarification. However in most cases things are left a little open ended so that our writers can expand further if they want to. As far as I'm aware EVE: Source is considered the be all and end all in terms of being canon, moving forward.
Falcon also told me in PMs while I was asking him about contradictions between previous EVElopedia articles and Source (namely in Demographics) that Source takes precedence. He said one of the purposes of Source is to clean up the inconsistencies by being the canon bible from here on forward.
So, if it is to be considered the definitive source, then they changed Amarr from a quite faceted, well rounded faction away in the direction that TonyG was tugging already - and with which they supposedly wanted to break: An fascist Empire merely based on Racism with some religious veneer.
With the exception of the demographics (especially in regards to freed slaves) I'm quite happy with what they've written for Amarr. For the most part it just repeats and summarizes what's said on EVElopedia aside from a few changes and additions.
I also see nothing in Source that precludes the existence of poets and writers, or that they can't attain impact. Just that visual art is considered more important. You already see the disinclination towards rephrasing in the pre-existing canon that describes it--there was massive outcry against Excena Foer because she rewrote and rephrased Itzak Barah's work in Gallentean, and Itzak had to go out of his way to argue that Excena's derivative was valuable on its own merit despite the changes she made for its introduction to Federal audiences.
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On the OP:
If you haven't already, I recommend reading the scientific article on jumpgates (http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/scientific-articles/interstellar-traveling/) for ideas.
Personally I prefer the idea of simply appearing at the intended destination, just years after the intended arrival time. That seems scientificially plausible to me and offers an interesting 'in' for RP (the ship's clocks read X time and the crew believes they arrived on schedule, but for everyone else years have passed since the ship disappeared).
Alternatively, the original clone being written off as dead and a new one activating. That's the simplest way of bringing the character back without touching on anything controversial.
If you do go with crazy stuff ideas, then I suggest keeping it vague and let there be no actual concrete evidence. The character can claim that this and that happened but can't prove it. This leaves it open-ended as to whether it actually happened or simply insanity, thus stepping on no one's immersion toes or CCP's lore. Nothing wrong with a little bit of eldritch horror, just needs to be handled carefully.
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I think you are missing part of my point, here. This bitterness about how others act in public that you and Veik are both mentioning, though from different perspectives, is part of what I am referring to as the solipsistic problem. The community no longer consists of people that roleplay exactly the way you want, with characters you want them to - thus everyone is either derpy or rude?
Bitterness and self-righteous cynicism is no less solipsistic than those who are being "rude" or committing nothing but "tenuous public interactions". There is a glass house here and you two folks are whipping rocks all over the damned place.
A glass house would exist if I honestly gave a shit anymore about what people think of my character. I don't. Neither do I care too much about other characters by and large. There's no rule that I have to engage in public interactions, especially when I find those public interactions by and large particularly onerous, and uninteresting if not just contrived bullshit. As far as I can see, the people that enjoy public RP can feel free to go right ahead and enjoy it.
I've recused myself from it, and established my own walls of non-participation because I personally don't enjoy it, and frankly when I've already given it an honest shot and all that I got was drama and bullshit, then I certainly don't feel like I'm sitting in a glass house.
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If you do go with crazy stuff ideas, then I suggest keeping it vague and let there be no actual concrete evidence. The character can claim that this and that happened but can't prove it. This leaves it open-ended as to whether it actually happened or simply insanity, thus stepping on no one's immersion toes or CCP's lore. Nothing wrong with a little bit of eldritch horror, just needs to be handled carefully.
Oh yeah, you have to play it really subtly.
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It was my impression that this was part of the point of Source - hence the title. Recognition of their past incongruity and releasing the definitive.
Ehm... I guess that will be the case. Source (1), Books (2), Chronicles (3), Wiki (4). As for me the wiki was the best source to toy around with ideas, so it had come first for me (and the tonyg books last***). As things can be added and adjust, but nevermind. As I said I roll with everything.
On that topic. For me bloodlines hadnt play that of a role, way more the caste; and/or class in other societies (like Upper-management in the State, have I saw as equal-ish.). As I mention here (http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=317170&find=unread) and here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5697.msg93883#new). Or in other words... if someone is holder (1) was more important for me as if someone is True Amarr (2) (I dont think this is a Kingdom thingy, as I can thing some few Empire RPers have roll that way too).
Source Book:
True Amarr are held aloft by the rest of the Amarr society, viewed as secret paragons of piety. Other bloodlines are forever tainted by the sin of their ancestors (is not mention was the sin is... I guess being not True Amarr?), no matter how pious, no matter how fervent and faithful, they will never match the unstained purity of the True Amarr.
[...]
Regardless, everyone born in the empire has one thing in common; a constant reinforcement of religion, the natural order of True Amarr (1) and holders (2) on top.
Sorry to go off topic. :( I had roll actually that my/our House has True Amarr slaves. For diverent reasons, some are just criminals other fall into slavery (stupidity!?), but the many junk was POWs from the Khanid-Amarr war. The so call "time of open warfare". Ehm... Now Im thinking to let them go, if I come back. "As True Amarr and Holders are on top." It would great to have an arc with some of the Amarr RP-guys.
I mean, I cant just let those old prisoners of war free. They will try to kill me/us for what I/we had done. Or lets say, If even just one would try to kill me after I had free him, It would be one to much. ;) So I think about killing them and send the corps to a Amarr RP Corp. I could think that I send in a ceremony the corpse to PIE (for example). And they could bring them to rest in a traditional way. Would be great to hear what some of PIE would think of this... or how they would like things to go... Like what ships should be use... etc...
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**** or a State megacorp CEO, or a very rich gallente in the Federation, etc....
*** I see Abraxes work more as a summery of New Eden, and not as something which should move the storyline forward. So I dont mind him dragging us (the reader) through all the factions. As I mention ones here before (to lazy to search). I dont mind him having not a good three act structure, but rather a split along the faction; as his goal is to describe and not to move the plot forward. As for TonyG is it the other way around... He should had work more with a three act structure (no flashbacks, etc...), and rather eject minor plot points, and characters, even factions, as it more about the plot then describing. But off topic.
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It is funny that youn mention the Aura chronicles, Samira, which state the special veneration poets receive in Amarr society. Yes, Excena Foer got into trouble.
But that's not the point: Itzak Barah was supposedly a religious poet. That entire profession of religious poetry is based on restating religious truths with differing, artistic words. They were by PF previous to EVE: Source highly valued members of Amarr culture exactly for this particular ability. This went so far that he had the authority to authorize Excena Foer's version even against the majorities whishes that were a-sympathetic to a non-believer doing what Itzak's profession does.
So, the problem can't have been, previous to EVE: Source, that she was restating religious truth. The problem must have been a non-believer doing it. Else Itzak Barah would have been guilty of the same thing. Now E:S is stating that Amarr have a strong preference for strictly visual arts, to the point that:
art and beauty lie in the visual depictions of the truths that have already been recorded in words, rather than trying to rephrase those truths in different words. Indeed, it appears that the general feeling is that any attempt to do so would not only be useless but also rather unseemly - if not outright sacrilegous.
(emphasis added by me)
Now, this really disqualifies the previously celebrated profession of the religious poet. It is also producing an unnecessary, previously not existing clash between PF. And even if E:S is to be considered authoritative, then this newly established fact has been set in stone by malpractice of writing, tbh, as it'd be a retcon for no appearent reason at all.
It does, by the way, also disqualify all Scriptural theology, as this is, by necessity, rephrasing of religious truth, just not (necessarily) artistically, but rather scholarly. The same goes for religious education. Both instances are explaining religious text and explaining means (amongst other things) rephrasing the meaning of the text (the 'truths') in different words than the text uses by itself.
Now, the Dark Horse site says: "Developed in close collaboration with the EVE and DUST 514 creative teams,..." If that is true, it can't be entirely true that Dark Horse is merely the publisher. Anyway, that Falcon said to you in a personal convo that E:S takes precedence is really of no concern in regard to whether it is a good idea to take E:S as authoritative. I think there are many good reasons to take it - just like TonyG's literature - cum grano salis.
As to the book mainly summarizing and repeating what was established for the Amarr and that being no problem, I agree wholeheartedly. I didn't count, but I'd guess I find nothing wrong with 90% of the sentences in the book and the artwork is stunning. And it's good for you that you are happy with what they wrote- that doesn't mean that it's not partly malpractice in writing for a world that should be qualified by consistence, coherence and continuity. But a book that is 90% summary and repeat, 10% changes and new things and of these 5% are unnecessary changes to the PF that come totally out of the blue or stuff that unnecessarily breaks down the dimensionality of the setting, isn't a book I can be happy with.
And I'm not alone with that assessment. We didn't accept what we got from TonyG and I don't see any reason to do so any more with the stuff in E:S if it's TonyG-esque.
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We reject this dumb reality and substitute our own.
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I'm asking myself what's the actual point of putting PF up on Evelopedia anymore. The 100% accessible to all resource is essentially considered to be retconnable at any time not only by Eve: Source, but by any purchased sourcebook that may be released in future. So I guess more monies is preferrable to having a consistent resource that anyone can look up and access.
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I'm asking myself what's the actual point of putting PF up on Evelopedia anymore. The 100% accessible to all resource is essentially considered to be retconnable at any time not only by Eve: Source, but by any purchased sourcebook that may be released in future. So I guess more monies is preferrable to having a consistent resource that anyone can look up and access.
I think this is also CCP stand. As it has been a long time since a page got updated or one from CCP had left a comment on a page (I think is almost a year now). So I think, as you mention, that they will go in the future with the Book way.
Another example would be the latest chron from Abraxes which even hadnt made its way to the EVElopdia (I had to bring it over (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Only_Way_Out_is_Through_%28Chronicle%29) :( ), as well as not on the EVE Chronicles Portal.
As you said. It is bad for monetization, as the wiki is 100% free. As well as you can put on a book a "PG-13" or "FSK-12" logo, and get all the legal stuff out of the way (as for the wiki you needed a page before "the page" which ask you like the dust page: How old you are?).
As for the ranking: Source, Books, Chrons, Wiki.... What come before what.. I actually dont care... As you mention "having a consistent resource" is more importent. As for me where this consistency comes from I dont care. I actually even think... they should put that stuff ingame (like swtor did with the codex), but this is like the immersion project out of order. So I dont care. As I said I roll with everything. As well as I have come more into the space opera mood (http://blip.tv/redlettermedia/star-trek-2009-review-part-2-of-2-4088343). :P I dont mean it negative...
Edit: I see it more the old treky way: A science fiction writer has to respect science... or you will end up like Star Trek Voyager. :lol: I think that was a major problem for many people... Like: SF Debris, which I agree, I really like his reviews. But I also have to say... Voyager was sci-fi fantasy. This is a transition which I have to do with EVE. Currently Im still to deep in the sci-fi mood.
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I think this is also CCP stand. As it has been a long time since a page got updated or one from CCP had left a comment on a page (I think is almost a year now). So I think, as you mention, that they will go in the future with the Book way.
Another example would be the latest chron from Abraxes which even hadnt made its way to the EVElopdia (I had to bring it over (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Only_Way_Out_is_Through_%28Chronicle%29) :( ), as well as not on the EVE Chronicles Portal.
As you said. It is bad for monetization, as the wiki is 100% free. As well as you can put on a book a "PG-13" or "FSK-12" logo, and get all the legal stuff out of the way (as for the wiki you needed a page before "the page" which ask you like the dust page: How old you are?).
As for the ranking: Source, Books, Chrons, Wiki.... What come before what.. I actually dont care... As you mention "having a consistent resource" is more importent. As for me where this consistency comes from I dont care. I actually even think... they should put that stuff ingame (like swtor did with the codex), but this is like the immersion project out of order. So I dont care.
I think for me it's a situation that might develop such as:
Player A uses Evelopedia resources for their character and fiction.
Player B points out contradictions to Player A between their Evelopedia material and the E:S material.
Player A asks, "So now I've got to pay just to have access to the actual lore in Eve?"
I don't feel that's a good direction to go because this isn't a tabletop setting where you can show people nearby quickly in your sourcebook something specific lore-wise. If the lore is shifted OOG, how are people supposed to access that quickly in an MMO setting for reference and the like to each other?
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I think this is also CCP stand. As it has been a long time since a page got updated or one from CCP had left a comment on a page (I think is almost a year now). So I think, as you mention, that they will go in the future with the Book way.
Another example would be the latest chron from Abraxes which even hadnt made its way to the EVElopdia (I had to bring it over :( ), as well as not on the EVE Chronicles Portal.
As you said. It is bad for monetization, as the wiki is 100% free. As well as you can put on a book a "PG-13" or "FSK-12" logo, and get all the legal stuff out of the way (as for the wiki you needed a page before "the page" which ask you like the dust page: How old you are?).
As for the ranking: Source, Books, Chrons, Wiki.... What come before what.. I actually dont care... As you mention "having a consistent resource" is more importent. As for me where this consistency comes from I dont care. I actually even think... they should put that stuff ingame (like swtor did with the codex), but this is like the immersion project out of order. So I dont care. As I said I roll with everything. As well as I have come more into the space opera mood. :P I dont mean it negative...
Edit: I see it more the old treky way: A science fiction writer has to respect science... or you will end up like Star Trek Voyager. :lol: I think that was a major problem for many people... Like: SF Debris, which I agree, I really like his reviews. But I also have to say... Voyager was sci-fi fantasy. This is a transition which I have to do with EVE. Currently Im still to deep in the sci-fi mood.
I think for me it's a situation that might develop such as:
Player A uses Evelopedia resources for their character and fiction.
Player B points out contradictions to Player A between their Evelopedia material and the E:S material.
Player A asks, "So now I've got to pay just to have access to the actual lore in Eve?"
I don't feel that's a good direction to go because this isn't a tabletop setting where you can show people nearby quickly in your sourcebook something specific lore-wise. If the lore is shifted OOG, how are people supposed to access that quickly in an MMO setting for reference and the like to each other?
Ehm. I agree... there should be a consistency. But as I mention above: "As for me: Where this consistency comes from I dont care." Example: If CCP says tomorrow... Tony G books first--as they had come first--after that the source, or the other way around. I dont care. I just care that there is a ordnial order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_measurement#Ordinal_scale), how this will look like I dont care.***
As for the second part....
"If the lore is shifted OOG, how are people supposed to access that quickly in an MMO setting for reference and the like to each other?"
As I mention above: They should put that stuff ingame (like swtor did with the codex), but this is like the immersion project out of order. So this thing is long gone... and dead by now. And we have to face the reality.
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Edit: ***As I have truthfully no saying about it. And I would think any argument, which I would bring forward would be ignore (as Im not be seen as a customer by CCP. Long Story.) ;) As well as that sci-fi fantasy is the way I have to watch and enjoy EVE. As mention here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5774.msg95826#msg95826) and before, the problem is ME. I have to rethink stuff: How I see it, and what MY errors were in the past.
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And I'm not alone with that assessment. We didn't accept what we got from TonyG and I don't see any reason to do so any more with the stuff in E:S if it's TonyG-esque.
Sami's quote of Falcon can't be any clearer, Mithra. And he has said this elsewhere, not just in private convos to her. "EVE: Source is intended to be the basic "bible" for prime fiction going forward."
And as far as not "accepting" what we got from TonyG? People ignored the contradictions they had to deal with when he directly contradicted previous Chronicles. But the rest was still, and still is, PF - as long as it doesn't contradict Source.
This is one of those situations were CCP has made it clear what direction they are going. For better or worse.
Edit: And if you want something alongside what Falcon said for some reason, from the introduction of Source: this book aims to capture a moment in time, the world as it is in the year AD 23351
(emphasis mine)
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A glass house would exist if I honestly gave a shit anymore about what people think of my character. I don't. Neither do I care too much about other characters by and large. There's no rule that I have to engage in public interactions, especially when I find those public interactions by and large particularly onerous, and uninteresting if not just contrived bullshit. As far as I can see, the people that enjoy public RP can feel free to go right ahead and enjoy it.
I've recused myself from it, and established my own walls of non-participation because I personally don't enjoy it, and frankly when I've already given it an honest shot and all that I got was drama and bullshit, then I certainly don't feel like I'm sitting in a glass house.
Obviously, you can play how you wish and enjoy what you wish. My point was simply that most of the excuses people have for bitterly separating themselves from RP can easily be, and often should be, attributed to them.
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It´s currently fashionable to be unfashionable, and so serpents have been developing a deep appreciation of the tastes of their own tails.
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Sami's quote of Falcon can't be any clearer, Mithra. And he has said this elsewhere, not just in private convos to her. "[...]
Edit: And if you want something alongside what Falcon said for some reason, from the introduction of Source: this book aims to capture a moment in time, the world as it is in the year AD 23351
(emphasis mine)
(added emphasis)
Now, If I wasn't clear previously, I don't care what Falcon said or didn't say, whether publicly, privately or wherever else. It's really of no concern in regard to whether E:S is done well or not. Gesakaarin pinted out quite well why it is a really bad idea - next to malpractice in writing. They aimed and missed. And is this to say that the chronicles didn't aim to portray the world of EVE as it is? <,<
So, yah, I prefer to suffer my own dumbness and not the one of other: The former one I have to suffer any way, but at least it is free. All I get from suffering the dumbness of E:S is that I suffer more and pay for it. No thanks.
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People are assuming that EVElopedia is static, when the reality is that it will likely be updated to take into account the information provided in EVE Source. Buying the book is not buying exclusive access to lore, it is buying early access to it.
And I'm fully in favor of paying for it if it means that money is funding lore development. It's a better use of my money than paying two months of subscription, which is the price of the book.
By the way, there's a lot of derailing going on here. Most of these discussions should be split off.
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Sami's quote of Falcon can't be any clearer, Mithra. And he has said this elsewhere, not just in private convos to her. "[...]
Edit: And if you want something alongside what Falcon said for some reason, from the introduction of Source: this book aims to capture a moment in time, the world as it is in the year AD 23351
(emphasis mine)
(added emphasis)
Now, If I wasn't clear previously, I don't care what Falcon said or didn't say, whether publicly, privately or wherever else. It's really of no concern in regard to whether E:S is done well or not. Gesakaarin pinted out quite well why it is a really bad idea - next to malpractice in writing. They aimed and missed. And is this to say that the chronicles didn't aim to portray the world of EVE as it is? <,<
So, yah, I prefer to suffer my own dumbness and not the one of other: The former one I have to suffer any way, but at least it is free. All I get from suffering the dumbness of E:S is that I suffer more and pay for it. No thanks.
But again, when it comes from CCP - who defines what PF is and isn't - Source can't miss by definition. The people who decide PF decided it. Well done, poorly done, it doesn't matter. RPers are not the arbitrators of PF, we use what we are given and expand on it.
Edit: Just to make this crystal clear: it absolutely does not matter if Source was done well or done poorly. PF is PF, CCP obviously has designed this to be the definitive source. It could have been written by a five year old, and it would still be the new PF.
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A community that doesn't respect its own PF/lore/canon is doomed to that disease, no matter what. If everyone respects it, there is no reason for it to happen. Like in any roleplay game community, be it MMO or tabletop, as long as people keep being selfish and do whatever they want without any consideration for the community itself, it generates issues.
How can a community respect PF/lore/canon, if it's conflicting with itself at every edge and end? There is, for example, PF giving poets and poetics in Amarr society a really big value in cultural activities, with poets being able to acquire near-saint status. Now, in the EVE sourcebook, it is stated that almost all arts that aren't visual are highly discuraged by the Amarrian establishment and that rephrasing the message of Scripture (like in religious poetry of the kind that had previously been held so high) would be considered almost scriledge in Amarr. What now is true, what is the PF one should roll with? Is the spaceship captain who began as court poet suddenly an ex-amost-heretic, when he would earlier by PF have been on a path that glorified God like no other?
To me this example sounds like someone getting the 'good idea' of taking the taboo on imagery the Islam has and turning it 'around' for the Amarr: A taboo on written word deviating from Scripture. That this doesn't make sense at all, given previous PF interested no one.
And there are several such instances and with every passing year they are generated manyfold, as the canon writers of CCP apparently have less and less an idea what already exists in terms of PF. No wonder with all the back and forth in that department, really.
Of course, that is also true in regard to slavery, the role of race and racism and many other central things within the Empire, which especially suffer from not being well defined, but being stuck in loads of PF paradoxes, because they are emotionally charged.
I've not followed the PF of other factions as much, but I think this isn't something merely found with the Amarr.
So, instead of fighting all the time a senseless war about which PF is to be taken seriously, most people in RP - especially those in there for some time - prefer to play in circles that share a consens on such things which are only more confused by referring back to PF.
Actually, I can definitely agree with that assessment. But we were not speaking about PF inconsistencies in this topic.
People play in their own consensus circles for the exact reasons you stated, or at least for a good part. Why the hell are we bothering with communities like backstage, and why people are coming here to ask for feedback ?
Why not just getting it from their own little circles ?
I'm asking myself what's the actual point of putting PF up on Evelopedia anymore. The 100% accessible to all resource is essentially considered to be retconnable at any time not only by Eve: Source, but by any purchased sourcebook that may be released in future. So I guess more monies is preferrable to having a consistent resource that anyone can look up and access.
Same.
I think this is also CCP stand. As it has been a long time since a page got updated or one from CCP had left a comment on a page (I think is almost a year now). So I think, as you mention, that they will go in the future with the Book way.
Another example would be the latest chron from Abraxes which even hadnt made its way to the EVElopdia (I had to bring it over (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Only_Way_Out_is_Through_%28Chronicle%29) :( ), as well as not on the EVE Chronicles Portal.
As you said. It is bad for monetization, as the wiki is 100% free. As well as you can put on a book a "PG-13" or "FSK-12" logo, and get all the legal stuff out of the way (as for the wiki you needed a page before "the page" which ask you like the dust page: How old you are?).
As for the ranking: Source, Books, Chrons, Wiki.... What come before what.. I actually dont care... As you mention "having a consistent resource" is more importent. As for me where this consistency comes from I dont care. I actually even think... they should put that stuff ingame (like swtor did with the codex), but this is like the immersion project out of order. So I dont care.
I think for me it's a situation that might develop such as:
Player A uses Evelopedia resources for their character and fiction.
Player B points out contradictions to Player A between their Evelopedia material and the E:S material.
Player A asks, "So now I've got to pay just to have access to the actual lore in Eve?"
I don't feel that's a good direction to go because this isn't a tabletop setting where you can show people nearby quickly in your sourcebook something specific lore-wise. If the lore is shifted OOG, how are people supposed to access that quickly in an MMO setting for reference and the like to each other?
Called it months ago. :/
And as far as not "accepting" what we got from TonyG? People ignored the contradictions they had to deal with when he directly contradicted previous Chronicles. But the rest was still, and still is, PF - as long as it doesn't contradict Source.
I wonder.
I always accepted every damn Canon we got thrown at, insanely good or insanely bad, and that includes every inch of TonyG-isms. I took upon myself, gritted my teeth, clenched my fists, and went with it. Why do you think I fucking hate Jamyl ? I may be a roleplayer, but i'm not my character. I'm a player, and a reader. And that includes every damn OOC knowledge.
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But again, when it comes from CCP - who defines what PF is and isn't - Source can't miss by definition. The people who decide PF decided it. Well done, poorly done, it doesn't matter. RPers are not the arbitrators of PF, we use what we are given and expand on it.
Edit: Just to make this crystal clear: it absolutely does not matter if Source was done well or done poorly. PF is PF, CCP obviously has designed this to be the definitive source. It could have been written by a five year old, and it would still be the new PF.
Well, I will make it matter for me, one way or another.
I may be a consumer, but I'm not a brainless consumer taking everything someone puts in front of me. It's not like I'm some kind of labrat that has no other choice than to consume whatever food it is getting.
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Well, I will make it matter for me, one way or another.
I may be a consumer, but I'm not a brainless consumer taking everything someone puts in front of me. It's not like I'm some kind of labrat that has no other choice than to consume whatever food it is getting.
As always, you can do what you wish. If someone wants to build their character from a setting that isn't current canon, there's nothing the rest of us can do about it.
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I don't need to build a character, I have a 7 year old, well established character, that didn't get into conflict with PF for most of the 7 year, unless you count the self-contradictory parts of PF.
Also, next to dropping into conflict with PF due to weird out-of-the-blue changes to PF, there'salwaysthe option to leave. It's not that I'm as married to EVEas a labrat to it's cage. And even they managed to escape.
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I don't need to build a character, I have a 7 year old, well established character, that didn't get into conflict with PF for most of the 7 year, unless you count the self-contradictory parts of PF.
Also, next to dropping into conflict with PF due to weird out-of-the-blue changes to PF, there'salwaysthe option to leave. It's not that I'm as married to EVEas a labrat to it's cage. And even they managed to escape.
Every time you RP you are continuing to build a character. The rest of what you said is true - I don't think you are a lab rat or in a cage.
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(http://l.wigflip.com/JHb6L333/roflbot.jpg)
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By the way, there's a lot of derailing going on here. Most of these discussions should be split off.
Yeah, but I've never been one to mind when people split off into tangents since I do it a lot in regular conversation. I've got my use out of the thread anyway so if the mods decide to split or no I'm cool with it either way. Thanks go to everyone for the help/criticisms.