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Author Topic: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)  (Read 43471 times)

Artabanus

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #90 on: 28 Jul 2010, 06:09 »

If AA, EE, UU, YY and OO are single letters, so should AI, EI, UI, OI, AE, OE, UE, AU, EU, OU, etc. They're pretty much the same concept and having one designated by double letters and not the other does not seem logical at all. It would also be a very distinctive element in the language, separating it from the more typical (to most of us) Latin based letter sets.

Could it be that the English/Latin-based letters "AA" "II" and "UU" that are included in the list are just transliterations of the Napanii characters?

After further thought on this matter, I thought of a couple of more questions regarding the fictional Caldari language, Napanii. Of course, any human-based language in New Eden would have descended from a language/languages spoken on Earth. However, that does not mean (in my humble opinion) that they would be identical to any language that was spoken on Earth 16,000 years ago. It may share striking similarities to certain languages, especially the ones that most greatly influenced it...but it would not be those languages, just like Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, French or Romanian are not Latin, just like English is not German...they may descend and have been influenced by certain tongues, but they are something new, and thus to explain how the language functions say in to an English-speaker (for example), it may be required to show certain things in a way that the English-speaker will understand. Thus the concept of double-vowelled letters.

Just my thoughts.

Art

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« Last Edit: 28 Jul 2010, 07:03 by Artabanus »
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GoGo Yubari

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #91 on: 28 Jul 2010, 07:08 »

Could it be that the English/Latin-based letters "AA" "II" and "UU" that are included in the list are just transliterations of the Napanii characters?

I do think that absolutely makes sense. In fact, while I thought about it I totally came around to thinking that's better. However, following that logic, I think the other vowel pairings (including things like IE, OU, etc) should also be single letters in Napanii.

Actually, looking at it I now realize you have only made the double AA, UU and II into single letters. The same should follow for EE, OO and YY. It might be that those don't feature on system names, but I don't see why they wouldn't in the general language.

One more bit of critique/thinking, too. I think it might be better to have the vowel letters have some internal logic to the way they are marked. Or it totally could be that I'm just not seeing why you chose those particular variations on the basic I-shape to depict each vowel. I think the additional symbol added to the basic I-shape should somehow reflect the nature of the sound in question. For example, your letter for A feels like it should be O instead because it is a round, all-encompassing sound. A single vowel letter might use a shorter, more curt designator while a long double vowel sound would use longer, more flowing symbols. That kind of linguistic logic seems to appeal to me, in any case.

Edit - Added:

After further thought on this matter, I thought of a couple of more questions regarding the fictional Caldari language, Napanii. Of course, any human-based language in New Eden would have descended from a language/languages spoken on Earth. However, that does not mean (in my humble opinion) that they would be identical to any language that was spoken on Earth 16,000 years ago. It may share striking similarities to certain languages, especially the ones that most greatly influenced it...but it would not be those languages, just like Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, French or Romanian are not Latin, just like English is not German...they may descend and have been influenced by certain tongues, but they are something new, and thus to explain how the language functions say in to an English-speaker (for example), it may be required to show certain things in a way that the English-speaker will understand. Thus the concept of double-vowelled letters.

I agree totally.

It's just pretty amazing how exactly like Finnish the Caldari in the game is (I don't mean "kind of exactly", but rather "totally exactly") and since it is also a cited source for the Caldari, I'm offering my advice here with a fair bit of emphasis on that similarity. While most players struggle to pronounce Caldari system names, Finns generally have no problems at all communicating those (on Vent, or whatever). Taking things further than those origins and in different directions is cool though and indeed should be emphasized, I feel (indeed, I'm usually the one on the boards preaching about why we shouldn't just look at Eve cultures as simple extensions of singular earth cultures, like Intaki->India or so on).

btw, "Saisieni" is "Gotmushroom" in Finnish. Ahem.  :yar:
« Last Edit: 28 Jul 2010, 07:18 by GoGo Yubari »
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Ken

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #92 on: 28 Jul 2010, 07:20 »

Wi-fi is a beautiful thing.  Not quite off the grid yet!   :D  Short on time though... and it looks like you've been typing at the same time as me.  So, this applies to your first post, GoGo, not the one immediately preceding.

I am a bit iffy on the use of a single letter to designate a double vowel.

Only five such letters in the current version.  Three double vowels and two double consonants.

Biggest thing to keep in mind is that this isn't meant to conform to a Finnish standard, a Japanese standard, or an English standard.  Napanii is its own thing with its own quirks. 

Consider in English where we use the letter 'x' to express a sound that can also be expressed with 'cks' and sometimes 'z'.  Even though 'x' and its associated sounds appear relatively infrequently in English, there's an entire letter dedicated to it.  At the same time, the sound produced by 'tion', 'sion', and 'cion', which is heard all over the place in English, does not have a unique letter.  We spell it out every time.  The same goes for diphthongs 'ch' and 'th'.  We're still writing them with a two letter combo.

I think that while providing a unique letter for certain sounds (like the very prevalent 'aa', 'ii', 'uu' in PF Caldari words and proper nouns) while leaving others out gives the project a realistic flavor.  After all, it's fewer letters the aspiring industrial cog-in-the-wheel needs to learn in his corp-mandated Napanii classes.

One particular letter or pair of letters needs to be separately addressed as well, in regards to pronunciation.

Art has worked out a rather thorough phonology for Napanii that will appear in the edition of the primer he's about to publish over on his site, evechronicles.com.

I'll try to take a look at your follow up post in more detail when I can.  Thanks for taking an interest and jumping in to the discussion!  Be sure and take a look at the new edition of the primer once it's up on Art's site.
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Artabanus

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #93 on: 28 Jul 2010, 07:21 »

GoGo:

Lol. I appreciate your input; at least from my standpoint their well-taken. As far as the alphabet system for Napanii...I based it upon a variation of the Hangul alphabet.

This has been a group project with Ken taking the lead in trying to keep some consistency in the language for the PF base. I know that right now, he's away, but maybe when he gets back, he can take a look at your posts and chat with you regarding it. Since consistency and stability is one of the aims of this project, I'd prefer to take no action on this for the moment.

Its interesting what you mention about the Caldari words being similar or exactly like the Finnish, which is great for you!

Thanks.

Art
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Artabanus

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #94 on: 28 Jul 2010, 07:23 »

Ha! You are online! Great!
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GoGo Yubari

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #95 on: 28 Jul 2010, 07:40 »

Just offering my views is all and appreciation while at it, too.

So yeah, I'm totally in support of Napanii not being a carbon copy of Japanese or Finnish. However, like I said in my previous post, I feel I have something to contribute in regards to the Finnish influence on it, however strong that is chosen to be, and that's why my comments. If either of you wants consulting on that angle, just let me know.

Curiously, I sometimes wonder what might be the reason for the designers to have Japanese and Finnish as the influence on the Caldari State.  Looking at the main points of the culture, it isn't exactly clear where the Finnish influence is, but looking at the language it is apparent. I do somewhat humorously suspect that the company Nokia has something to do with it, being a Finnish company which many mistake for a Japanese company due to its also-Japanese sounding name and it was enjoying its heyday around the time Eve was designed. They had a joke about that in Transformers the Movie as well, heh.

Anyway, I'm installing Starcraft 2 now so see you guys in 10 years.  :yar:
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Artabanus

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #96 on: 28 Jul 2010, 07:51 »

Thanks a lot GoGo. Much appreciated.
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Artabanus

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #97 on: 29 Jul 2010, 20:25 »

Hey folks:

Check it out and hope you enjoy.

http://www.evechronicles.com/apocryphal/shorts/naprintro.html

Thanks.

Art
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Artabanus

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #98 on: 05 Aug 2010, 11:18 »

Hello Ken:

What do you think about producing a Napanii Glossary from what we've put out with the Primer? Over at Eve Fiction Search, there was a request for such; perhaps a glossary that were separate from the Primer would facilitate the acceptance and use of the Napanii language by the player base.

What do you think?

Art
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Ken

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #99 on: 05 Aug 2010, 18:21 »

Definitely a great idea.  Go for it.  I've been wanting to provide a reverse lexicon (English to Napanii) for some time now.  Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to help much for the time being.   :s
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Artabanus

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #100 on: 05 Aug 2010, 18:57 »

No problem. I'm on it.

Art
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Artabanus

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #101 on: 11 Aug 2010, 15:29 »

Saisieni!

Glossary available for download here:

http://evechronicles.com/apocryphal/shorts/napr/napr5.html

Thanks.

Art
« Last Edit: 11 Aug 2010, 15:33 by Artabanus »
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Artabanus

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #102 on: 15 Aug 2010, 14:32 »

Saisa!

New font uploaded. "Napanii Flow.

Download here:

http://www.evechronicles.com/apocryphal/shorts/napr/napr6.html

Thanks.

Art
« Last Edit: 15 Aug 2010, 14:35 by Artabanus »
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April Knox

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #103 on: 30 Aug 2010, 15:28 »

I've browsed the last version of the Primer looking for the -guri suffix to no avail... Anyone that can enlighten me about the meaning of the -guri suffix? Thanks in Advance!
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Silver Night

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Re: [Language] Napanii (Caldari bloc)
« Reply #104 on: 30 Aug 2010, 15:33 »

I think it's something like criminal or naughty person? Comes from the description of 'Guristas' which says the word is an amalgamation of a word meaning 'naughty person' and a word meaning 'gang' IIRC.
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