Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Mizhara on 17 Dec 2010, 05:07
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Ushra'Khan invites you. (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1432662)
I don't personally have anything to do with this event, but it looks like it could be very amusing. I'm definitely going there and there just might be a few interesting happenings. Check out the thread and get involved, people. With the various IC debacles about Concord going on, this ought to be a good place to get some RP done.
Nicely done, Ushra'Khan.
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Yea, was thinking to visit Yulai and see what happens. :roll:
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Hrm... it's too bad Inara can't go there. I'd get GCC as soon as I jumped into system, which locks the gates and docking ranps in hisec.
However, props for protesting the corruption known as CONCORD.
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Sounds like a fun event, I hope you all have a good turnout!
Obviously Silas not going to be seen there but I gave you kudos as best I could IC :)
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Hrm... it's too bad Inara can't go there. I'd get GCC as soon as I jumped into system, which locks the gates and docking ranps in hisec.
However, props for protesting the corruption known as CONCORD.
Confirming CONCORD showed me the door out when I tried to sneak on by.
A lesson learned, as it were.
Curious to see how the event team responds to the U'K in Yulai.
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Choosing the cautious and diplomatic route, I've decided to simply address this OOCly, but am I missing where the IC "coat of paint" was applied that portrays CONCORD distributing the Pax Amarria? I'm just a bit confused at why a link to a clearly OOC dev blog can stand as IC "evidence".
My initial inclination was something like this:
The link provided as proof of the charge that CONCORD is mass-distributing the Pax Amarria seems to lead to a description of rules changes to an interactive entertainment medium. It would be appreciated if you would correct this and supply the intended proof, as the accusation has captured my curiosity.
But that's the exact kind of "poke holes in your story with inconsistencies that exist in everyone's to some degree" way of doing things that totally rubs me the wrong way, so I decided against it.
I'm just curious how others feel about this "subtle incongruity" (i.e. not "OMG it destroys my immersion you better stop it!").
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Choosing the cautious and diplomatic route, I've decided to simply address this OOCly, but am I missing where the IC "coat of paint" was applied that portrays CONCORD distributing the Pax Amarria? I'm just a bit confused at why a link to a clearly OOC dev blog can stand as IC "evidence".
My initial inclination was something like this:
The link provided as proof of the charge that CONCORD is mass-distributing the Pax Amarria seems to lead to a description of rules changes to an interactive entertainment medium. It would be appreciated if you would correct this and supply the intended proof, as the accusation has captured my curiosity.
But that's the exact kind of "poke holes in your story with inconsistencies that exist in everyone's to some degree" way of doing things that totally rubs me the wrong way, so I decided against it.
I'm just curious how others feel about this "subtle incongruity" (i.e. not "OMG it destroys my immersion you better stop it!").
If I'm reading you right (correct me if I'm wrong of course), the confusion is stemming from the use of an OOC event under control of the devs as an IC resource.
I can't offer a straight answer, but, we've seen it happen multiple times. Case in point, the complaints of "Amarrian navy ships won't shoot Sansha, they must be sympathizers." My guess is, people like to read what they want to read in given situations. So in UKs mind, it registers as an IC affront from CONCORD, while the rest of the universe identifies it as a learning book replacement by the devs with a random, inconsequential item.
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If I'm reading you right (correct me if I'm wrong of course), the confusion is stemming from the use of an OOC event under control of the devs as an IC resource.
I can't offer a straight answer, but, we've seen it happen multiple times. Case in point, the complaints of "Amarrian navy ships won't shoot Sansha, they must be sympathizers." My guess is, people like to read what they want to read in given situations. So in UKs mind, it registers as an IC affront from CONCORD, while the rest of the universe identifies it as a learning book replacement by the devs with a random, inconsequential item.
If it were something derived from an event that could fall under the "actions in space matter" heading, then I'd nod in agreement and move along, if for no better reason than that keeps the pressure on CCP to possibly make a change to address it.
Amarrian Navy vessels not firing on Sansha ships is something my characters could observe or verify if they were inclined to do so. I'm not against anyone's character interpreting things they experience and responding to them, watching and participating in collisions of perception and worldview are where the fun is much of the time.
My OOC "wuh?" basically comes down to: how did that OOC dev blog get read by somebody's character, exactly (I mean without the universe imploding in on itself :9)?
The IC "wuh?" would be something like: "I'm amazed at how that link you provided was able to implicate CONCORD in the activities you described....without once mentioning the name CONCORD."
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I guess the in-game stuff just irks me because we should be able to look at simplistic issues with game mechanics, and recognize, as fully functioning adults, what is and isn't; to me its sort of like seeing the "double ship glitch" and making an IGS post that Sansha agents have somehow fused your Hound and Cormorant together to make a supermachine for their evil machinations.
Anywho.
As for issue at hand, if anything its worse than the aforementioned irritation for someone to use a dev blog - can't get more OOC than that - and use it for IC stuff. Maybe I'm not seeing an obvious justification, but, at the moment, I'm just as stumped as you. >>
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I thought the Pax-Amarr reference was actually quite clever, not to mention funny.
There are actually a ton of people with pax amarr in their cargoholds, so I suppose if people wanted to be picky about it there's in game evidence.
Or we could just go with it as a clever reference *shrug*
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I'm not going to argue the use of Pax Amarria during the event as I found it clever and nicely used for RP. As long as it creates RP and no player factions are fucked by it, I'm cool with it.
Log of the whole proceedings. (http://www.ushrakhan.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1459)
Killboard Link to the bookburning. ... and some unfortunates who... err... forgot to leave the ship prior to the event. *coughs* (http://www.ushrakhan.org/edk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=136103)
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There are actually a ton of people with pax amarr in their cargoholds, so I suppose if people wanted to be picky about it there's in game evidence.
In game evidence of the Pax Amarria's existence? I'm not disputing that.
In game evidence of CONCORD being the reason for a lot of copies being around suddenly? That doesn't seem to follow, no.
Although I will offer that if some well-crafted (or hell, even zany and full of rhetoric, totally in line with expected U'K behavior :9) theory were put forward to explain the connection between the two that didn't involve a link to a web page originating here on planet Earth in the 21st century, I'd have never thought twice about it.
I'm not going to argue the use of Pax Amarria during the event as I found it clever and nicely used for RP. As long as it creates RP and no player factions are fucked by it, I'm cool with it.
I'm not arguing against "the use of the Pax Amarria during the event."
What does or does not constitute a "player faction"?
Besides, player factions are maligned, undermined, weakened, assaulted, and in some cases obliterated as part of RP quite frequently.
Again, though, all of this is non sequitur to the issue I am (trying) to address.
Attacking each other with damning accusations and providing or manufacturing evidence absolutely makes perfect sense for the setting. A Dev blog explaining the mechanics of some game systems changes technically does not even exist in the same reality as our characters.
What would the response be to me linking to the dev blog where they said player fiction is going away for a while as "evidence the major powers are colluding to cause the media channel blackouts that have being going on for months"?
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The same explanation as always.
"Your source is a poor forgery and you're obviously delusional or intentionally ignorant."
... what? SF does it.
It's with this as it is with pretty much every RP venture that requires a little interpretation of either poorly fleshed out PF or events in-game that are poorly explained. You make up something that makes sense to you and your characters and if someone else disagrees with said interpretation of events, they get to lay forth their own theory on the matter.
Discrediting sources and so on is done all the time.
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The same explanation as always.
"Your source is a poor forgery and you're obviously delusional or intentionally ignorant."
Once again, my actual issue is entirely dismissed.
How are my characters able to read a dev blog entry from CCP about EVE Online from 21st century Earth to begin with?
... what? SF does it.
Isn't this the kind of rationale that pre-adolescents quickly learn doesn't work very well?
It's with this as it is with pretty much every RP venture that requires a little interpretation of either poorly fleshed out PF or events in-game that are poorly explained.
Poorly fleshed out PF and events in-game have IC authority.
A dev blog does not.
You make up something that makes sense to you and your characters and if someone else disagrees with said interpretation of events, they get to lay forth their own theory on the matter.
If someone wants to interpret events as they see fit, that's fine and I've not said otherwise.
This is literally a case of using OOC knowledge ICly, however.
Discrediting sources and so on is done all the time.
In this case, I would have to discredit CCP...
...ICly
/boggle
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Syylara, how would you propose interpreting the sudden appearance of Pax Amarria in hangars, then?
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Syylara: If you find the use of OoC information unacceptable, ignore it as obvious forgeries or whatever. This isn't rocket surgery.
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Syylara, how would you propose interpreting the sudden appearance of Pax Amarria in hangars, then?
That one could take a while to wrap my brain around. Whatever I eventually came up with, it wouldn't involve linking an OOC dev blog on GalNet. Perhaps an EVE version of The Gideons International?
Syylara: If you find the use of OoC information unacceptable, ignore it as obvious forgeries or whatever. This isn't rocket surgery.
I've chosen to do exactly that from an IC standpoint.
OOC, I just find the image quite hilarious...some capsuleer discovers these long-archived documents from the planet Earth including this dev blog, reads it and concludes to themselves "I knew CONCORD was behind this, to the GalNet postings!". I just don't see the IC sequence of events that leads to the IGS post we're discussing.
That is literally the only thing burning up my brain on this issue: how did someone's character read that blog? How did they access it, where did they find it, etc.
I've suddenly realized what the Amarrian response should be: "This archive referring to the Pax Amarria from eons ago is clearly a prophecy of our coming rise! We are petitioning the Theology Council to review its authenticity. Once verified, it will become among our most holy relics displaying our devotion and faith. Furthermore, we see a clear demonstration of the philosophy of abandoning the classical ideas of "knowledge" and replacing them with understanding of God's word!"
Edit: I appreciated Cosmopolite's take at it very much, that actually pulled in quite a few sources that do exist in the same reality-continuity as our characters (imo).
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Syylara, how would you propose interpreting the sudden appearance of Pax Amarria in hangars, then?
Did it appear in any hangars? I know it was supposed to replace all contracted skillbooks, but that part at least was clearly an organized conspiracy by every single broker responsible for those contracts, not CONCORD.
That, or Jovians (https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Greyscale) did it.
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Baring in mind that the Pax Amarria is not scripture and in fact in some Amarr loyalist circles is burned on sight. I would go as far as to conspire that if this was placed there in our hangers by some unknown force, it was done so by those hoping to make the Empire more liberal in its dealings.
Also, the SCC is responsible for collecting fee's from contracts isn't it? Obviously if so, they could have their hand in the this.
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Yes, it replaced all existing learning skillbooks in hangars and cargoholds.
"A wizard did it" works in WoW but not here. ;)
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Yes, it replaced all existing learning skillbooks in hangars and cargoholds.
Are you quite sure?
The dev blog ( http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=824 ) says skill books in hangars etc vanish, and only skillbooks on contract are replaced with Pax Amarria.
And I have not noticed a sudden pile of Pax Amarria in our corp hangars, despite us having had some learning skills there (we got a refund).
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SOCT handed out shuttles left right and centre.
Jovian body parts also exploded into people's hangars.
Snowballs too.
:jovians:
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I freely admit the possibility that I'm wrong at just about any given time. :) But even so, isn't the SCC part of CONCORD? Or do I have that wrong too?
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Baring in mind that the Pax Amarria is not scripture and in fact in some Amarr loyalist circles is burned on sight. I would go as far as to conspire that if this was placed there in our hangers by some unknown force, it was done so by those hoping to make the Empire more liberal in its dealings.
Also, the SCC is responsible for collecting fee's from contracts isn't it? Obviously if so, they could have their hand in the this.
This is why I'm not the right person to try and explain its sudden appearance, I don't even know what its significance is as a player :9.
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This is literally a case of using OOC knowledge ICly, however.
It isn't really OOC knowledge though. Those book replacements happened in space. We all saw them. The thread was posted after the swap happened (although OOC we planned it beforehand).
The embedded link was OOC I'll grant you but it was meant for OOC purposes - to show players who may have missed wtf was happening what we were talking about - rather than as IC evidence.
No IC evidence of the event occurring was deemed to be needed for such a widespread phenomenon. The fact that open contracts had the item replaced meant that one way or another the SCC was involved.
Even if someone tried to spout 'jovians did it' as a handwave on Galnet we would claim that it must be jovians involved in CONCORD and the SCC and therefore our protest stands ;)
Bottom line the link was OOC but it wasn't intended to be IC or contain any information required IC.
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It isn't really OOC knowledge though. Those book replacements happened in space. We all saw them. The thread was posted after the swap happened (although OOC we planned it beforehand).
Yes, the book replacements actually happened, I get that. I've said I get that several times and indicated that particular take on it (provided by Cosmopolite) worked just fine.
The embedded link was OOC I'll grant you but it was meant for OOC purposes - to show players who may have missed wtf was happening what we were talking about - rather than as IC evidence.
When someone embeds a link in the middle of an accusatory statement on IGS, it generally serves just one purpose: that of lending credibility to the claim being made.
Really, I think the big failure here is that Zym didn't apply the OOC censor...which would have actually played really nicely into a "see, they are censoring us because they don't want you to know" response.
No IC evidence of the event occurring was deemed to be needed for such a widespread phenomenon. The fact that open contracts had the item replaced meant that one way or another the SCC was involved.
I can agree, with such a widespread occurrence you probably don't need to prove that it happened. But that's an entirely separate issue than proving your explanation for why it happened.
Bottom line the link was OOC but it wasn't intended to be IC or contain any information required IC.
Then it has no business being put in an IC forum without brackets around it.
A simple
"((for those unaware, this dev blog (http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=824) may be relevant))"
would have made for much less confusion :9.
Just to clarify, as well, this is all IMO, not emo. People had fun with the event and RP generated and that's super :9.
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Choosing the cautious and diplomatic route, I've decided to simply address this OOCly, but am I missing where the IC "coat of paint" was applied that portrays CONCORD distributing the Pax Amarria? I'm just a bit confused at why a link to a clearly OOC dev blog can stand as IC "evidence".
The SCC is a member corp of CONCORD.
SCC corp description: The SCC is responsible for regulating and monitoring all trade transactions that take place on space stations. It has agents on all stations that record the transactions and they also offer courier and escrow services to make trade smooth.
The dev blog is irrelevant. What matters is that the SCC is the only organization that could replace items in active contracts. Any link to the dev blog could be considered OOC background information for those unaware. The link could be reported to the IGS forum moderators for being OOC if you wish.
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Choosing the cautious and diplomatic route, I've decided to simply address this OOCly, but am I missing where the IC "coat of paint" was applied that portrays CONCORD distributing the Pax Amarria? I'm just a bit confused at why a link to a clearly OOC dev blog can stand as IC "evidence".
The SCC is a member corp of CONCORD.
SCC corp description: The SCC is responsible for regulating and monitoring all trade transactions that take place on space stations. It has agents on all stations that record the transactions and they also offer courier and escrow services to make trade smooth.
The dev blog is irrelevant. What matters is that the SCC is the only organization that could replace items in active contracts. Any link to the dev blog could be considered OOC background information for those unaware. The link could be reported to the IGS forum moderators for being OOC if you wish.
I'm not repeating myself again, please read the whole thread.
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There may be a news item about this. It will probably be inaccurate. Please don't hate us.
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Pro-tip: Muck Raker doesn't work for the... okay, I can't even finish that joke.
Anyway, there's no such thing as bad PR.
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I went ahead and requested that the link be removed.
I'm trying to clarify some things with the reporter, but I'm not sure if it will help. I didn't notice any Electus Matari at the event, but the reporter believes you were there in force.
The whole thing was Ugleb's brainchild. It was a fun event, went pretty smoothly, most of the speakers managed to finish before the more vocal trolls showed up. Stitcher was there to counter protest, was cool to have opposing arguments.
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Yeah between the reporter generally being somewhat unclear about, well, everything ('Why protest in Amarrian Yulai and not systems with CONCORD stations in Gallente, Minmatar of Caldari space?' to paraphrase one) and them interviewing two of our leadership who had been unable to attend the news will probably end up a bit facepalm-worthy.
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http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4314&tid=7
Yulai, Genesis - On the 18.12.112 Ushra'Khan [UNITY] lead a protest against CONCORD. According to Forlorn Wongraven, a UNITY official, The Star Fraction and Electus Matari alliances also attended the protest to express their disapproval for CONCORD's perceived "pro-Amarrian bias."
The protest began at 21:00 and was held, according to Rye Contini "against CONCORD's pro-Amarrian bias" and "favoritism." Ushra'Khan claim this manifests in many forms, including the recent replacement of all learning skill books with copies of the Pax Amarria. Forlorn Wongraven said CONCORD favoritism towards the Amarr Empire was "more than obvious." UNITY sources have said that they will assault and kill anyone who aids the Amarr nation or supports slavery, and that anyone who acts in favor of the Amarr Empire's rules and regulations "deserves to die."
During the protest, which has been summed up as "peaceful" by the organizers, Ushra'Khan representatives claim to have destroyed around five thousand copies of the Pax Amarria, many inside a Harbinger battlecruiser, which was, according to its pilot Kazzzi, (a former PIE pilot who defected to Ushra'Khan) "issued several years ago by an Amarrian paramilitary capsuleer corporation." Kazzzi, who was the pilot of the destroyed Harbinger class ship, stated that He went on to say that Ushra'Khan will accept a reform of CONCORD instead of its removal and that is why they are engaging in peaceful protests rather than an open war.
Aralis of Curatores Veritatis Alliance [CVA] - a long-standing Amarr loyalist alliance - said he found the allegations against CONCORD strange as he considered the organization to have severely hampered CVA's efforts to expand the Empire's territory into Providence. According to Aralis, CVA will not take any hostile actions against the protests.
Neither [-SF-] nor [-EM-] representatives could be reached to confirm or comment on their alleged participation in the event.
Since the anti-CONCORD protest of 18.12.112, Ushra'Khan have not organized any further protest against CONCORD and no statement from CONCORD has been received so far.
Not as bad a story as I'd thought, accuracy-wise. Though I don't remember seeing a single -EM- pilot in attendance.
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Re: EM in the demo, see IGS. We were definitely there not as an alliance, I have yet to speak to any individual that was there, and me, the head diplomat, or the alliance leader were none of us actually contacted by ISD for comment. ;)
I can confirm that a learning skill book in my hangar simply went poof, no replacement by Pax Amarria. Did not have any on contract, so no idea on that.