Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Corso.Verne on 13 Jun 2013, 16:26
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EDIT: Although the following post is super situational and relevant to me and my character specifically, feel free to use this thread to discuss the topic in general. Lavish Unit or Scher with praises, discuss whether or not you think its a good idea, whether its overdone, how you feel about robots, how you lust for robots, whatever.
This is a thread that I've actually wanted to start for a while, just because conceptually I think it would be really fascinating to get a discussion going on the topic, but haven't really felt comfortable broaching what with being something of a new kid on the block. After some lively RP and post-coital OOC discussion, however, I've realized that the very existence of my character concept may depend upon it.
I suppose my main problem can be sufficiently summed up as a question that needs to be asked of anyone who intends on pursuing a character model in any way similar to mine, which is:
I want to RP a robot but I am not a robot so how do I fake it?
I know we have some rather prominent AI-enthusiasts within the community, however I might be the only one playing (or attempting to play) a purely artificial entity? I don't know if that's the case or not, someone correct me if I'm wrong. So I guess maybe in certain ways my problems might be more prominent and in some ways less (I don't have to deal with pesky biological integration, for example).
The specific problem I dealt with today was: how do I RP a character that possesses enhanced mathematic/logic-based reasoning without actually being capable of processing gigabytes of information in a short period of time or just being super smart? Obviously I can't say "oh, my mistake" or "I was wrong" or whatever because a robot knows what they say to be true, they're objective creatures (albeit hypothetical).
The truth is, I'm probably not the most intelligent person in the channel. As much as that is personally devastating for me to admit, its (probably) the truth. I'm also probably not the best at using logic. So what happens when someone who is either better at logic than you or thinks they are better at logic than you (for the amateur observer, the two are kind of hard to tell apart), ends up putting you in a position in which you are required to either a) look like an idiot or b) refute a core part of your character's backstory/beliefs/ideas?
The other thing I've struggled with is how familiar and how unfamiliar should a robot or cyborg's character behave? When I first created Z-ARK, I tried to write him as mechanically as I possibly could. The feedback I got was: he's just generally annoying or boring or not fun to RP with. When I tried to adapt him to seem more "human" in nature so I could actually actively participate in more conversations, people seemed to immediately disbelieve his story or try to pick him apart to an extent that I didn't feel comfortable maintaining a conversational volley (except for Stitcher, Stitcher always thought he was a fraud).
Now, make no mistake. I'm not trying to whine. I'm not trying to say "These guys are being mean and won't let me be a special snowflake!" and I'm not trying to say "I don't feel like I need to back up or justify my character backstory, you should just accept him at face value!" That is dumb and wrong. I don't mind being a constant curiosity and source of skepticism. I don't mind getting into arguments with those skeptic characters or nosy people who's job it is to challenge people verbally day after day. I have a lot of fun RPing in those situations.
My fear, however, is that eventually I'm going to back myself into a corner enough times or slip up in some way that, even if the character concept is not "this is totally just a guy pretending to be a robot", everyone will think that's what he is, and that's not what I want to happen. I didn't set out to RP a village idiot. I wanted to provide some situational humor, of course, play the straight main and everyone laugh at my malfunctioning, etc. etc. But I didn't want that humor to come at the expense of the character on a core level. I don't want people to feel sorry for Z-ARK, or make fun of him for being "crazy", or whatever, unless those reactions are a product of in character subjective reactions to my intended character concept.
So I guess what I'm asking for is, do you guys have any advice for cutting corners on all the minutia while still backing up the original concept? Ways of speaking or things to avoid, etc. etc. I want a logical person who has an open mind to be at least willing to believe the possibility that my character is telling the truth. I don't mind people thinking he's a fake and I don't even mind a certain level of ambiguity as to whether or not that is actually the case. I just want to be able to write him well enough that people both a) don't automatically assume he is lying unless that's the type of thing they would normally do and b) genuinely want to interact with him.
GIVE ME UR INSITES
Also do you think Z-ARK is dumb?
Y/N
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This is kind of the story of RP in a nutshell man. In the end most of us are pretending a variety of things that we really have no experience in. The only advice I can really give is to try not to overextend yourself and end up in some conversation where you have no clue about what your discussing. You can also always just cop out on a convo that is just to heavy. Say you got podded or whatever and exit stage right.
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I played an AI in an android body in a friend's tabletop game some years ago and had a blast playing her. Essentially, she did not understand morality or humans getting caught up in what she considered to be inefficient social behavior. One encounter, a bouncer to a club that we needed to get into made it known that for a 'favor' he would let us in. While the rest of the group tried to reason an alternative way through the situation, the AI simply shrugged, took the bouncer into the side alley and provided him with said favor. The rest of the group just sat their slack jawed when she came back. Her response, "What? We need in, he made the price of entry known. We're wasting valuable time."
The hard part for me was divorcing emotion from reaction and action as well as trying to play not being able to comprehend human emotion while at the same time attempting to mimic and 'fake' those same emotions.
There's a lot more to it than that, but that's what I'm remembering right now and in some ways I would love to bring a version of that character into EVE.
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Just do it and don't be derp about it.
If people can handle Synthia, they can handle you.
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I apologize for the quote sectioning, I'm not particularly fond of it, but necessary here ...
The specific problem I dealt with today was: how do I RP a character that possesses enhanced mathematic/logic-based reasoning without actually being capable of processing gigabytes of information in a short period of time or just being super smart? Obviously I can't say "oh, my mistake" or "I was wrong" or whatever because a robot knows what they say to be true, they're objective creatures (albeit hypothetical).
The big thing is, don't engage in situations you know you cannot write enough to be convincing. If you must, master an ambiguous form to disconnect yourself until it passes. Recognizing conceptual traps or unfavorable positions is important, but so is being able to twist them to your advantage.
Running with that, have a reliable 'out' that fits in with your character. Ghost Hunter is an extreme cybernetic organism, but because he is mind-linked to the entirety of the Foundations, his cover up comes from that. He is mentally occupied to an unimaginable scale, so an error on his part can be attributed to 'preoccupation'. Similarly, if he doesn't perform to spec, once again he hasn't devoted his entire mental facilities to the situation at hand. If people press him to do so, that can be brushed off because, 'the Foundations needs his abilities more'. etc.
You can easily export that to your AI character, depending on their setup. If an error appears and others point it out, attribute it to a reasonable preoccupation that explains why the error could happen.
The truth is, I'm probably not the most intelligent person in the channel. As much as that is personally devastating for me to admit, its (probably) the truth. I'm also probably not the best at using logic. So what happens when someone who is either better at logic than you or thinks they are better at logic than you (for the amateur observer, the two are kind of hard to tell apart), ends up putting you in a position in which you are required to either a) look like an idiot or b) refute a core part of your character's backstory/beliefs/ideas?
The diplomatic word game is a crafty one to learn if that is what you want to do. My biggest recommendation for starting out is : engage on your home territory, and try to keep the subjects there. Speaking from an area you know about very well helps you grasp better ways of dealing with someone who is engaging you. A single point in their whole argument can unravel them if you can spot it because of your experience. Similarly, engaging someone on their homefront without being well versed in it will expose you to that very same tactic.
Arguing and debating with yourself is an effective way to plan for these encounters. I debate my character's ideology and positions all the time with myself to find where I am weak at. I've found holes others have rarely come close to approaching when they've engaged him in verbal debate. When he gets put into those corners where his position has turned against him, I have an out ready that stalls them 'winning' the debate. They think they win, of course, but the spectators have doubt in their minds still.
Thus, in this capacity, you must work with yourself to always have an option available even at your worst.
The other thing I've struggled with is how familiar and how unfamiliar should a robot or cyborg's character behave? When I first created Z-ARK, I tried to write him as mechanically as I possibly could. The feedback I got was: he's just generally annoying or boring or not fun to RP with. When I tried to adapt him to seem more "human" in nature so I could actually actively participate in more conversations, people seemed to immediately disbelieve his story or try to pick him apart to an extent that I didn't feel comfortable maintaining a conversational volley (except for Stitcher, Stitcher always thought he was a fraud).
This is a conceptual issue more than anything else, keep in mind.
A purely machine based character can be interesting to engage if there are hooks for others to latch onto. There needs to be something from the robot character that normal ones can find desirable to interact with. Perhaps its learning 'normal civilization' culture, or social interactions? So on, so forth. Any character without a hook for interaction is boring, first and foremost.
I have one character who speaks in a very mechanical way that is even difficult for me to conceptualize. Yet she is very popular internally, because she has hooks for interaction and thus is interesting. Public spheres have long rejected her because she has no external hooks for them, but that is by design - to the places like the Summit, she is boring/irritating. Find a way to make hooks that fit your character and fit how you want them to go. The people who want to tap in will come, eventually.
So I guess what I'm asking for is, do you guys have any advice for cutting corners on all the minutia while still backing up the original concept? Ways of speaking or things to avoid, etc. etc. I want a logical person who has an open mind to be at least willing to believe the possibility that my character is telling the truth. I don't mind people thinking he's a fake and I don't even mind a certain level of ambiguity as to whether or not that is actually the case. I just want to be able to write him well enough that people both a) don't automatically assume he is lying unless that's the type of thing they would normally do and b) genuinely want to interact with him.
There is no cutting corners on a core character concept. If you have to cut corners, your core concept has changed from its original incarnation.
Tactfully engaging conversation, picking your fights, having reliable mannerism and behavior - all these contribute to a consistently strong character image. If your character demonstrates they are consistent, people who are intrigued can examine them further to judge their worth to them. In seeing your character's mannerisms unfold, they can see how the character pieces together and operates in real time. Characters change, of course, but having visible reasoning and logic why they change is important. Being inconsistent in this area demonstrates an unreliable character, and people will avoid interaction to avoid the headache of guesswork.
There are other points I think I am missing, but this should cover the meat of it.
tl;dr have a strong idea of what you want to do, build it up and be consistent with the execution of that idea. You will attract people who like your idea eventually, and discover those who will not interact with you at the same time.
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If memory serves me correctly, we've had quite a few robots in Eve now. That is to say, players playing characters that are either AI, drone infested, androids/actual robots, or concepts even more esoteric. I've been one of these myself, come to admit.
Playing a robot is kinda fun. You might, for example, issue a message to IGS, except not in english, but encrypted in a basic programming/encrypt language like hex or binary - something that someone familiar with those languages will immediately recognize, and have fun decrypting.
Once people catch on to the basic encrypt language you're using, you could throw a wrench in their gears - i.e. re-encrypt the original basic message string from the previous message, in yet another relatively easy-to-decrypt encryption method, i.e. take an english message, encrypt it in hex, then throw the hex code into a vigenere cipher, then leave the cipher key somewhere obvious. That way, the guys with crypto training could act all fancy and heroic in decrypting your insidious robotic code before anyone else could, while everyone else looks accurately lost at the gibberish you're posting.
There are a ton of various crypto tools available via simple googling. Just google "translate english to hex" or "translate hex to octal" if you want to fuck around with the various languages out there.
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It helps to be able to fake it. ;)
Seriously though, having characters with "knowledge beyond the player" isn't too difficult to deal with. If things get too heated in a chat, send an OOC message to the other player involved. This works in a LOT of situations in regards to RP. Never forget that there are other players on the other side of the chat, and if you feel like something's going overboard, remind the other players. ;)
Having the knowledge and/or ability be situation-dependent also helps. For instance, "I'm an astrophysicist... a theoretical astrophysicist... specializing in minute spatial distortions caused by micro singularities and Planck-scale dynamics."
As for rogue drones/robots/AI in general:
I've been down that road more than once.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1182994
http://eve-search.com/thread/1321894-0/page/1#1
http://nikiruu.blogspot.com/2011/01/new-image-deceivers-voice.html
I annoyed a great many people. :oops: I didn't really care. :bash: I love everyone just the same! :cube:
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It helps to be able to fake it. ;)
Seriously though, having characters with "knowledge beyond the player" isn't too difficult to deal with. If things get too heated in a chat, send an OOC message to the other player involved. This works in a LOT of situations in regards to RP. Never forget that there are other players on the other side of the chat, and if you feel like something's going overboard, remind the other players. ;)
Having the knowledge and/or ability be situation-dependent also helps. For instance, "I'm an astrophysicist... a theoretical astrophysicist... specializing in minute spatial distortions caused by micro singularities and Planck-scale dynamics."
As for rogue drones/robots/AI in general:
I've been down that road more than once.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1182994
http://eve-search.com/thread/1321894-0/page/1#1
http://nikiruu.blogspot.com/2011/01/new-image-deceivers-voice.html
I annoyed a great many people. :oops: I didn't really care. :bash: I love everyone just the same! :cube:
:cube:
I loved your crazy antics.
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From my point of view, AI and robots should act more human, than human themselves.
This means, no protocols, no references about their AI-ness, but rather do some logical (apply straight logic solutions where they are not applicable) or 'human experience' errors. Have troubles with emotions, and stuff like this.
Look at replicants from 'Blade Runner' as example. And I like how Synthia plays it.
About speaking in 'hex' or binary, or whatever. No, please no. Well, I know, that some drones in mission speak to you in binary (i think it was a phrase like "die,noob"), but according to another mission, they are just mocking humans this way (drone infested said something like "you, humans, are no fun"). Having access to translators and ability to talk in program languages, robot should be able to talk practically any language and don't need to say encrypted stuff or so.
When encrypted/hex messages are useful, I think, is for communications between some sort of 'special services'.
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Interesting question. I've had one particular AI for a while, and I'm about to have a second. Of course, things are complicated for me in that both have literally gobbled up human brainscans and integrated them... and their creator doesn't actually understand half of their components.
Then again, the Masque is not even slightly chatty. She used to be a little more prominent when I was still in Naraka, but still, my experience of her actually interacting with others is limited. For what it's worth, though, here's my take on things.
First, what's your purpose? A human has no innate purpose, unless you count the genetic imperative to breed. We have to make ours. An AI has no such requirement unless it was created 'just because' - and even then, that's a purpose of sorts. That will have a direct effect on personality and your approach to things. Masque was a spymaster's assistant; she's cold, secretive and utterly ruthless when necessary, but prefers to avoid direct confrontation in any fashion. Conversely, the new AI, Nakija, is designed for combat; she's violent and impulsive (by computer standards), and has no particular qualms about collateral damage or taking out her targets cleanly, so long as they go down.
When dealing with a social situation or problem, ignore ethics, practicality etc. and work out what, logically, is the swiftest and most efficient solution. You may have some kind of inhibition for whatever reason on taking that solution, but it's the first that will come to mind for your character, and will have a bearing on how they react.
Don't be afraid of being incomprehensible (again, this will vary depending on design). Masque regularly does things that even I have trouble working out, but that's fine - and in a way is a good way of faking superior intellect. 'Why did you do that?' 'You wouldn't understand.' kind of thing. Just be careful about overusing that particular line unless you're prepared to be annoying (which is also a valid choice, most people find Masque annoying :P)
Last but not least: cheat. Ghost's thing about being largely occupied limiting his processing power is a good one; in my case, the AIs are at least partly human and made out of a lot of salvaged components, which accounts for some fallibility. For the rest, they just don't say much. Find some reason (or develop one, which could be an interesting arc) for your AI to be limited in some fashion.
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Remember that after a few posts full in binary on the IGS, the ISD started to wave the mod hammer at every post approaching that pattern, since we are supposed to only speak in English even in there.
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Everything Ghost said is something you should take to heart. Never push beyond your means and abilities lest you do a derp like divide by zero or something. As for AI, at least in terms of PF, I think AI research is illegal, so you gotta go about it carefully. There's ways around it and a lot of people have done it rather successfully.
I'd talk to Synthetic Cultist and Unit XS...number string here (ask around for the numbers). They can help more.
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Until CCP states unequivocally that there is such a thing as an AI-controlled biologically-human shell, I'm going to make the blanket assumption that anyone claiming to be such a thing has what I would diplomatically describe as "a colourful imagination."
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I dunno man. Synthia and Yuni do it pretty well. Even Vlad...to an extent. I don't think it's beyond the bounds to be able to transfer into a robo-shell. I mean shit we transfer into clones light years away. Also, I THINK Zainou's CEO was the first to put his brain into a body....he's a bit eccentric though.
Just don't pull an invincible terminator sort of deal...that's just >_>..
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Until CCP states unequivocally that there is such a thing as an AI-controlled biologically-human shell, I'm going to make the blanket assumption that anyone claiming to be such a thing has what I would diplomatically describe as "a colourful imagination."
Wasn't there some PF about Cybernetics, and how the more you mod someone, the less efficient — and the less Human — they become?
I'd say any AI in a human body ought to be played with a great deal of awareness of just how fragile and resource-consuming such a build would be. Avoid physical combat unless fully armored, be slower moving than most Sci-Fi cyborg/androids are, and be very suspicious of any direct-contact info-transfers which might introduce corrupt code, virus', trojans, worms, or other attacks. In short, given the anti-AI atmosphere in New Eden, any actual AI's are ultra-vulnerable because humanity has not put that much energy into upgrading them.
This could lead to an awesome characterization of a hyper-intelligent being which is utterly crippled by fear of its own fragility.
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Hello.
Synthia has a pattern of speech that people recognise. She also comments on things that seem trivial or irrelevant to other people, as if it was the most important thing in the universe.
As best as I can, I also try and not have Synthia appear to show emotion.
Also
I'd say any AI in a human body ought to be played with a great deal of awareness of just how fragile and resource-consuming such a build would be. Avoid physical combat unless fully armored, be slower moving than most Sci-Fi cyborg/androids are, and be very suspicious of any direct-contact info-transfers which might introduce corrupt code, virus', trojans, worms, or other attacks. In short, given the anti-AI atmosphere in New Eden, any actual AI's are ultra-vulnerable because humanity has not put that much energy into upgrading them.
This could lead to an awesome characterization of a hyper-intelligent being which is utterly crippled by fear of its own fragility.
This is an interesting post, although it does not apply as much to Synthia as it does to other people.
Synthia, is complicated. Each "Synthia" is essentially a remote-operated roboticised human, built using Takmahl-derived technologies. Takmahl being one of the ancient, vanished, cultures that feature in the COSMOS constellations. Takmahl technologies included cybernetics and bio-engineering, including a device called a "biodroid controller".
The entity that is operating the Synthia-robots, is... more complicated.
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I can recommend reviewing small mission arc "New Frontiers" (lvl3, random combat mission) about AI.
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Until CCP states unequivocally that there is such a thing as an AI-controlled biologically-human shell, I'm going to make the blanket assumption that anyone claiming to be such a thing has what I would diplomatically describe as "a colourful imagination."
And the robot legions rely upon your naivete so that they can move into position to take over :P
I will point out that Eve science has reached the point where an entire human consciousness can be reduced to a datastream - one that can be transferred almost instantaneously across the entire cluster (and possibly further). It's a very small leap from there to an AI controlling a human shell, assuming the AI is sufficiently advanced to interface with all the appropriate nerves. Cybernetics help in this no end. Both of my AIs largely exist only in cyberspace, but their meat shells, when they choose to use them, have a lot of reworked Sansha tech in them to make the cyberspace/meatspace interface easier.
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Until CCP states unequivocally that there is such a thing as an AI-controlled biologically-human shell, I'm going to make the blanket assumption that anyone claiming to be such a thing has what I would diplomatically describe as "a colourful imagination."
I tend to agree with you in this case.
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Where do those AIs come from ? Rogue drones ?
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Rogue Drones exist in a grey area where they may or may not have true Artificial Intelligence ... it's played around with frequently. Most players who tap into it presume that some form exists, though.
Conventional AI research is banned in CONCORD signatory space (IIRC), so by nature AI usage is criminal/illegal. If you are not starting off as a Rogue Drone AI, this is the next best area I would think.
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(1) Rogue Drones exist in a grey area where they may or may not have true Artificial Intelligence ... it's played around with frequently. Most players who tap into it presume that some form exists, though.
(2) Conventional AI research is banned in CONCORD signatory space (IIRC), so by nature AI usage is criminal/illegal. If you are not starting off as a Rogue Drone AI, this is the next best area I would think.
(1) Confirmed. Some funky missions and stories have you doing things that bring up the AI thing. It's border for some of them I guess, them being drones. The Deltole mission that has you bringing a drone an embryo is an interesting nod.
(2) Also Confirmed. No AI research because of CONCORD. In high-sec anyway...
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Aura?
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Aura is, as I understand it, little more than a talking program - not a true AI, as its responses are fairly inflexible and standardized across all pilots. I'd rate it as something perhaps a bit above Siri or that computer that plays Jeopardy.
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Aura is like a talking GPS no ?
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Aura is, as I understand it, little more than a talking program - not a true AI, as its responses are fairly inflexible and standardized across all pilots. I'd rate it as something perhaps a bit above Siri or that computer that plays Jeopardy.
To use a Mass Effect analogy, Aura is a VI according to the wiki, so that's fair.
Having said that, there is a rather interesting tidbit on said wiki - the original prototypes of Aura didn't talk to you. They screwed with the capsuleer's brainwaves as a form of telepathy.
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Until CCP states unequivocally that there is such a thing as an AI-controlled biologically-human shell, I'm going to make the blanket assumption that anyone claiming to be such a thing has what I would diplomatically describe as "a colourful imagination."
I'll see your CCP, and raise you a Tony G. Jamyl Sarum in Templar One.
Yes, I know. No need to thank me. Just smile and nod. :yar:
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Who says an AI has to be unemotional?
I give you the Mistake Not... or more fully the Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath
Minds, who are definitely my favourite AI's around, are anything but unemotional. If nothing else just take the behaviour of the Beats Working from the same book (The Hydrogen Sonata). It deftly analyses and games the behaviour of an alien race, in order to speed them up without insulting them. When this puts them in danger it throws itself into a fight it knows it will likely not win because it feels some obligation to those it has assisted.
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Who says an AI has to be unemotional?
I give you the Mistake Not... or more fully the Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath
Minds, who are definitely my favourite AI's around, are anything but unemotional. If nothing else just take the behaviour of the Beats Working from the same book (The Hydrogen Sonata). It deftly analyses and games the behaviour of an alien race, in order to speed them up without insulting them. When this puts them in danger it throws itself into a fight it knows it will likely not win because it feels some obligation to those it has assisted.
Ahh, the Culture. I've only read Player of Games and Consider Phlebas, but both were fascinating concepts. There's a little influence from the AI there on my constructs - Masque definitely has a bit of Mawrin-Skel going on.
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Excession is recommended reading if you want an insight into how Minds plot, scheme, and generally play games with each other and the minions they control.
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I'm with Andreus on this one. It's been RP'd very well by several players and it's fun to watch, but my character is convinced they are just a particularly demented breed of body-modder. Any claims to be an AI/Drone/sleeper, can expect to receive the same treatment as claims to be a cat or rabbit.
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Perhaps rather sitting on the boat of, 'my character will consider yours crazy', it would be more constructive to offer ideas on how portrayal can be done effectively regardless.
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The OP asked how I feel about robots. Offering that opinion is about as constructive as I feel I can be on the subject. I personally don't think there is a basis for some of the AI character concepts. Perhaps I'm just being selective with which fictional elements I'm willing to accept. As a player, I think it's been portrayed very well by others though and I'm more than happy to step back and let them have fun playing as they wish.
I've noticed that the AI concepts that seem to be most acceptable to the general (ie: the summit) population are the ones that are consistent. If I had any advice to give Zark or others starting out it would be to remain consistent with your story and your character. There will still be characters like mine who think yours is crazy, but at least they'll be consistently crazy.
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The thing I like most about Synthia (and the Things She Reads About) is that the player doesn't require others to get in the same boat in order to interact with her. If my character regards her as an odd and eccentric human, I can still RP with her - my RP isn't based on 'your character is wrong' and hers isn't based on 'you must totally agree with me'. Ghost hunter's characters are the same.
In my experience, the players whose characters are AIs work hardest to negotiate the complexities of unreliable and conflicting PF - no doubt because they sort of have to - which gives the rest of us the interesting angle of 'my character thinks yours is crazy ... except she isn't quite sure ... and maybe your character is totally telling the truth ... and maybe not ... "
And in such uncertainties and unreliable narrators, great RP can be born.
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The thing I like most about Synthia (and the Things She Reads About) is that the player doesn't require others to get in the same boat in order to interact with her. If my character regards her as an odd and eccentric human, I can still RP with her - my RP isn't based on 'your character is wrong' and hers isn't based on 'you must totally agree with me'. Ghost hunter's characters are the same.
In my experience, the players whose characters are AIs work hardest to negotiate the complexities of unreliable and conflicting PF - no doubt because they sort of have to - which gives the rest of us the interesting angle of 'my character thinks yours is crazy ... except she isn't quite sure ... and maybe your character is totally telling the truth ... and maybe not ... "
And in such uncertainties and unreliable narrators, great RP can be born.
An interesting point. Certainly one I can get behind, from both sides of the equation - my little monsters do their best to hide from public view, or to obscure their true nature for the most part, so a culture of disbelief suits them just fine. It's useful to have that kind of situation for anything that's lore-questionable.
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If someone is trying something odd, but that seems fitting with a science fiction setting, then I'm inclined not to make too much fuss unless it is really blatantly denying fundamental PF.
AI certainly exists in the setting, even in high sec. It is just very tightly regulated. That's the main problem with AI characters. Why hasn't CONCORD's tech police come a knocking?
But the same problem applies with self-avowed pirate loyalists as well. Why aren't they all outlaws as a result?
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If someone is trying something odd, but that seems fitting with a science fiction setting, then I'm inclined not to make too much fuss unless it is really blatantly denying fundamental PF.
AI certainly exists in the setting, even in high sec. It is just very tightly regulated. That's the main problem with AI characters. Why hasn't CONCORD's tech police come a knocking?
CONCORD doesn't come knocking when my pirate docks up in Highsec and last I remember, he's -9, mostly from Podkilling. CONCORD seems to drop the ball a lot, ingame - from Collelie to Sansha incursions to flashy red capsuleers (who they have jurisdiction over, rather than empire forces) to illegal goods.
When someone says they are an alien, or a catperson, or a sentient pony, or a wizard, I find it hard to acknowledge them in character. But when, in a room built from rogue drone scrapmetal, amidst a crowd of Cyberknights and True Slaves, I encounter an illegal AI in a semi-organic shell which was constructed out in Syndicate, I am content to acknowledge them as legit.
I should note, however, that the key to AI players is: Less is More (both in terms of numbers — there shouldn't be very many of them — and in how they play it. Low key, vulnerable, and with a minimum of calling attention to any hyper-intelligence or special abilities granted to them by their computeriness).
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So, at first I had planned on responding to this post with how I've received all your input and my plans to tweak my character in ways that might be more compromising with the more hard liners in this thread that claim my character is inherently an impossibility, but the more this goes on the more I realize I have successfully generated a discourse that is becoming less and less about me and more and more about the topic in general and a flux of opinion.
Since that is exactly what I was hoping would happen, I feel as if diverting the topic back to me would be counterproductive and self-centered, so I'm going to link to my character thread in this post once I've compiled my thoughts on that particular subject, for any curious.
As for the current discourse, here's what I have to say. First and foremost, I must beg your forgiveness for being somewhat ignorant of the parameters the Eve Online lore provides for those such as me who are always looking to push boundaries. I had not realized the concept of AI was as wishy-washy a proposition in New Eden as I have come to understand it to be. I hope that will help to shed some light on my initial surprise and, admittedly, slight indignation at the criticism levied against me.
In a universe with drones and Aura, with warp drives and Cyberknights, with pseudo and trans-humans, I forgot that New Eden is a fundamentally human place, and this defiance of common sci-fi fair is pretty core to its concept. So, mea culpa there. I didn't mean to step on any toes or behave in a manner that some might consider willfully ignorant or vain.
I do, however, think that my inexperience and naivete has accidentally touched on something it seems many of you find to be fascinating, or at the very least worthy of impassioned feelings on the subject. So I thought I'd pose the question, to each of you individually, as to your opinions on how close New Eden is technologically to AI, or if its there already, why is it not more prevalent?
My first problem with the subject was actually particularly relevant to my decision to reevaluate Z-ARK. And that is, a techno-cultural dependence upon cloning technology as a means to effective immortality. Obviously, AI likely don't have to worry about aging in the way that humans do (although rampancy can be a problem, perhaps?), but beyond the long-term ramifications of this tech for the human race, at present it is used much more practically to transform warfare from an emphasis on human resources to mechanical resources.
Basically, how would an AI simulate the capsuleer cloning process in a way that is at least analogous? This kind of stumped me, to be honest. One of the fundamental tenants of Z-ARK as a character is the lack of any biological components. And apart from the aforementioned problems with precedents or lack thereof in the lore, it presents the very real problem of how do I explain waking up in a station after being podded? The transfer of consciousness seems universal as a concept, but is the technology really there yet to recreate a fully mechanical entity at the rapid and precise speed organic capsuleers are accustomed to?
The other question I'd like to ask you guys is, not just in the Eve universe but in reality as well, do you believe artificial intelligence is possible? I guess you shouldn't really feel obliged to answer that if it makes you uncomfortable for whatever reason, it is a personal question and not a character one, but I think it'd be fascinating to see the spread of people's opinions and how that matches up (or doesn't) to the opinions of their characters.
Personally, I don't believe that we will ever see a Turing-based AI. I just don't think its possible to program in semantics that way. I am, however, significantly more optimistic about the recent advances in neural networks, and believe that the unconventional means used to "program" such a device could very well lead to future breakthroughs and perhaps even a unique intelligence, although I have no conception of how long from now that could be.
What do you think?
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I do, however, think that my inexperience and naivete has accidentally touched on something it seems many of you find to be fascinating, or at the very least worthy of impassioned feelings on the subject. So I thought I'd pose the question, to each of you individually, as to your opinions on how close New Eden is technologically to AI, or if its there already, why is it not more prevalent?
My first problem with the subject was actually particularly relevant to my decision to reevaluate Z-ARK. And that is, a techno-cultural dependence upon cloning technology as a means to effective immortality. Obviously, AI likely don't have to worry about aging in the way that humans do (although rampancy can be a problem, perhaps?), but beyond the long-term ramifications of this tech for the human race, at present it is used much more practically to transform warfare from an emphasis on human resources to mechanical resources.
Basically, how would an AI simulate the capsuleer cloning process in a way that is at least analogous? This kind of stumped me, to be honest. One of the fundamental tenants of Z-ARK as a character is the lack of any biological components. And apart from the aforementioned problems with precedents or lack thereof in the lore, it presents the very real problem of how do I explain waking up in a station after being podded? The transfer of consciousness seems universal as a concept, but is the technology really there yet to recreate a fully mechanical entity at the rapid and precise speed organic capsuleers are accustomed to?
The other question I'd like to ask you guys is, not just in the Eve universe but in reality as well, do you believe artificial intelligence is possible? I guess you shouldn't really feel obliged to answer that if it makes you uncomfortable for whatever reason, it is a personal question and not a character one, but I think it'd be fascinating to see the spread of people's opinions and how that matches up (or doesn't) to the opinions of their characters.
Personally, I don't believe that we will ever see a Turing-based AI. I just don't think its possible to program in semantics that way. I am, however, significantly more optimistic about the recent advances in neural networks, and believe that the unconventional means used to "program" such a device could very well lead to future breakthroughs and perhaps even a unique intelligence, although I have no conception of how long from now that could be.
What do you think?
Although it's a debateable question (both IC and OOC) whether Rogue Drones are actually sentient, considering they are an adaptive, evolving 'species' of cybernetic beings, I'd say that the technology does exist for AI already. It's mentioned in the wiki that AI research is illegal because all serious attempts at creating a sentient, unbound cybernetic organism have resulted in it rebelling.
It's canonically established that Sleeper drones are AI as well. It's also implied (through the 'Awakened Informorph' thing) that they are sufficiently sophisticated to have had dealings and negotiations with the RDs. Now, Sleeper tech is quite a long way ahead of the rest of us, but there's also a lot of examples of it being reverse engineered and used (T3 and Dusters, for a start).
You can also make some interesting arguments based on Nation. Although Nation is more akin to the Borg than the Geth in that it's a hive mind network of organics, linked by implants, rather than a true cybernetic entity, the Geth analogy is actually quite a fitting one. After all, the Geth are not individuals, but a staggering number of programs which link together to form consensus and improve their processing power. A hive-based AI using Sansha technology (in terms of information relay and the like, not the implants per se) could also be quite possible.
I'm a little puzzled at your quandary re: podding. You're implying that the hardclone 'burn scan' retrieves some mystical and magical thing called 'consciousness', separate from science and utterly unfathomable, and wings it across the stars by unknown means. Exaggerated, but that's the logical premise of your question. Since Eve is a (relatively) hard science universe, though, this clearly isn't the case. A brain scanner simply reduces the memories and mind of an individual into data that can be fed through the relays to the appropriate destination. I'd honestly argue that an AI would find it easier to use a pod-style hardclone system, with some suitable adaptation to connect with the scanner - or even just use custom-built pod interfaces. We've got instant communication across the known universe, and the ability to send an entire mind's worth of data (can't be small) instantly as well (how else could some poor schmuck who got old fashioned doomsdayed in his pod still be around?)
Real AI... until we actually understand what consciousness is and how it works, that's an awkward question.
Edit: just reread that and realised it sounded a little aggressive. Not intended, I can just get intense when debating things that interest me, sorry :oops:
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Repentence: While the brain scan delivers Information from a dying clone to a new clone, it does require...a Brain. If he's a computer inside a fleshy body(or a full robot), he's going to need to replace not just the organic shell(or robotic shell), but the computer as well. Though, to be fair, with Capsuleer level resources, having even the most sophisticated and/or illegal of computer parts replicated and replaced should not be a huge deal.
As for finding true AI possible: I believe that there are scientists working very hard right now to replicate the human brain in silicon. I defer to their expertise and say Yes, eventually.
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I'm a little puzzled at your quandary re: podding. You're implying that the hardclone 'burn scan' retrieves some mystical and magical thing called 'consciousness', separate from science and utterly unfathomable, and wings it across the stars by unknown means. Exaggerated, but that's the logical premise of your question. Since Eve is a (relatively) hard science universe, though, this clearly isn't the case. A brain scanner simply reduces the memories and mind of an individual into data that can be fed through the relays to the appropriate destination. I'd honestly argue that an AI would find it easier to use a pod-style hardclone system, with some suitable adaptation to connect with the scanner - or even just use custom-built pod interfaces. We've got instant communication across the known universe, and the ability to send an entire mind's worth of data (can't be small) instantly as well (how else could some poor schmuck who got old fashioned doomsdayed in his pod still be around?)
Forgive the lack of clarity, see Creep's response for my intent. I totally agree that the inherent almost "data packet" nature of the transfer process would probably be easier to adapt to an AI than to a human brain, so the problem becomes reassembly. I merely used the term "consciousness" for expediency. Obviously, if AI is so strictly prohibited and regulated, rebuilding an entire neural network or equivalent robot brain thingy seems like it would require a lot of resources, which doesn't necessarily jive with the whole independent capsuleer life. So how do you recreate a highly sophisticated, prototype, allegedly one-of-a-kind robotic exoskeleton and a brain which would probably be a miracle of the universe, on a moment's notice?
This entire thread has made me want to read everything there possibly is to read on drones, both out of a desire to know all things ever and in the hopes that I might find some answers to my questions there. Does anyone know if there are any compendiums handy to make my quest a little easier?
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So how do you recreate a highly sophisticated, prototype, allegedly one-of-a-kind robotic exoskeleton and a brain which would probably be a miracle of the universe, on a moment's notice?
While there are some debates as to the exchange rate between the ISK and the average baseliner moneyz, it's pretty much a given that capsuleers are seriously rich and have ludicrous amounts of resources compared to most people, so adjustment of the pod interface doesn't seem like a major challenge. The robot chassis and brain, however... yeah, that's a different question. Not one I've personally had to deal with.
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The thing I like most about Synthia (and the Things She Reads About) is that the player doesn't require others to get in the same boat in order to interact with her. If my character regards her as an odd and eccentric human, I can still RP with her - my RP isn't based on 'your character is wrong' and hers isn't based on 'you must totally agree with me'. Ghost hunter's characters are the same.
\o/
I should note, however, that the key to AI players is: Less is More (both in terms of numbers — there shouldn't be very many of them — and in how they play it. Low key, vulnerable, and with a minimum of calling attention to any hyper-intelligence or special abilities granted to them by their computeriness).
Synthia definitely isn't hyper-intelligent, sometimes barely understands what people are saying. I think her one special ability is to Misinterpret things that she encounters. Whether that is interpreting Adult Holo-Reels as Instructional Films, or just taking everything she reads at face value.
Example:
Person in the summit > /emote lights a cigar and frowns
Synthia > The Surgeon General of the Gallente Federation has Advised that Smoking is Hazardous to your Health.
So how do you recreate a highly sophisticated, prototype, allegedly one-of-a-kind robotic exoskeleton and a brain which would probably be a miracle of the universe, on a moment's notice?
This problem, is one of the reasons why Synthia is constructed the way she is. Each Synthia robot, that is remote-controlled, can be constructed using fairly normal cybernetic-surgery and cloning processes. Simply install the custom cybernetic devices into the freshly made cloned body. Not overly different to Khanid Cyberknights and all their custom implants too. Or so I am led to believe.
Synthia's brain, where the high-tech, unique hardware would be, is in a remote location, and not exposed to danger in the capsule, unlike the individual robots.
That was my solution (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3895.0), though I am sure there are other ways to achieve a similar result.
This entire thread has made me want to read everything there possibly is to read on drones, both out of a desire to know all things ever and in the hopes that I might find some answers to my questions there. Does anyone know if there are any compendiums handy to make my quest a little easier?
I'm not sure, a lot of things seem rather fragmented. There are bits about rogue drones in exploration sites, missions, asteroid npcs, and in background stories. Not all of this is linked together, and much is contradictory at times.
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What do you think?
From EVE Wiki:
"Proper artificial intelligence, or AI, doesn't yet exist in EVE as such - at least not in sane and nonmurderous form - though many simulations come close."
You can still play an AI character if you want, but just be aware your character will be against current PF as it stands now, and a lot of characters (and players) will disregard you as a crack pot or insane.
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What do you think?
From EVE Wiki:
"Proper artificial intelligence, or AI, doesn't yet exist in EVE as such - at least not in sane and nonmurderous form - though many simulations come close."
You can still play an AI character if you want, but just be aware your character will be against current PF as it stands now, and a lot of characters (and players) will disregard you as a crack pot or insane.
...Or he could be insane and murderous and be entirely within PF.
And keep in mind that "insane" for a robot means something wildly different than it does for a human. Humans have a slew of disorders and emotional issues that come to bear when they cease responding to the rational world. AI might very well behave in an entirely different manner. The Rogue Drones, for example, are not gibbering murderbeasts for the most part. For most of their existences, they are content to labor together, rather than shredding every bit of metal they see, including each other.
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Repentence: While the brain scan delivers Information from a dying clone to a new clone, it does require...a Brain. If he's a computer inside a fleshy body(or a full robot), he's going to need to replace not just the organic shell(or robotic shell), but the computer as well. Though, to be fair, with Capsuleer level resources, having even the most sophisticated and/or illegal of computer parts replicated and replaced should not be a huge deal.
As for finding true AI possible: I believe that there are scientists working very hard right now to replicate the human brain in silicon. I defer to their expertise and say Yes, eventually.
I recall somewhere in PF there was a CEO who had themselves put into a computer. Zainou, maybe?
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Well, yes, thats why i said most characters will view him as crackpot or insane?
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Repentence: While the brain scan delivers Information from a dying clone to a new clone, it does require...a Brain. If he's a computer inside a fleshy body(or a full robot), he's going to need to replace not just the organic shell(or robotic shell), but the computer as well. Though, to be fair, with Capsuleer level resources, having even the most sophisticated and/or illegal of computer parts replicated and replaced should not be a huge deal.
As for finding true AI possible: I believe that there are scientists working very hard right now to replicate the human brain in silicon. I defer to their expertise and say Yes, eventually.
I recall somewhere in PF there was a CEO who had themselves put into a computer. Zainou, maybe?
Yeah, it was the founder of Zainou, Todo Kirkinen. He was, it says, the first to transfer his mind into a machine.
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Real AI... until we actually understand what consciousness is and how it works, that's an awkward question.
So very true.
The "real AI" suffers from the condition of trying to create something we do not fully understand. Most exemplified by the fact that while we know exactly how digital systems work, because we created them from the bottom up, we have to explore, and have so far not gotten long into, how biological systems work. Frankly I very much doubt that it will ever be possible recreate "real AI" (and by that I mean intelligence as found in the biological system) using the digital system; the physical properties of the two systems are too far apart.
That does not stop me from accepting people who want to roleplay robots in a sdi-fi setting, though. There are a lot of things that sci-fi authors write about that are not physical possible, but that does not mean they are not interesting thought experiments. I would advice though, not to believe that your robot with human emotions is anymore realistic than a unicorn.
Hm, so what I am essentially saying, is that it would be ok for me for you to roleplay an unicorn in a fantasy setting. The question remains to whether or not unicorns actually exist in this setting, or translated, if robots with humane like AI exist in Eve. There is the CONCORD ban to take into notion, so in someway it is supposedly possible (otherwise no need for a ban) and then it can likely also have been succeeded. Though, for such a robot to stand out in public, especially in an environment heavily controlled by CONCORD, appears very unlikely, or at least destined to a quick termination. Anyhow, I generally accept peoples background story whatever it is, though, depending on which character I play, I might complain why such abominations are allowed to post on the IGS. ;)
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Firstly, it would seem that both myself and Synthia came up with the same basic premise for conciousness transfer.
clone gets made : tranciever gets installed. Remote access is re-activated.
Z-ARK, for you i'd say it's a lot more simple. Creating a copy of a proven technology is a lot cheaper than researching and prototyping it, so, while your first cyber-body was likely expensive and one-of-a-kind, after it's creation, you could easily have built a whole array of replacement bodies just in case you needed to reclone.
As for the transfer of conciousness and memories, as you are playing a full AI, and instant-communications exist, you could easily have a backup server somewhere that keeps a real-time copy of Z-ARK's memories and experiences, then, when a body goes pop, you simply send the activation code to the next one, and upload the most recent 'save'
As others have mentioned, I have found that the best way to play any AI slanted character, whether it be a full AI like yourself, or an AI augmented human mind like Yuni, is to keep it simple, keep it consistent and to keep specifics regarding your history somewhat vague.
I would also suggest reading up on Asimov's laws of robotics and how they have been used in popular media. I found them useful when building Yuni's character in my head. :)
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I thought it had already been figured out that the sleepers were the Jovians sans bodies or something? "Sleeping" Jovians from the Second Jove Empire living in a Matrix style VR world or something? Or am I just crazy?
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"When the Sleepers were initially discovered beyond the wormholes, their exact nature of their ships were a mystery. Further study eventually revealed that they were artificial drones. They appeared to be more advanced than rogue drones technologically, but also seemed less capable of independent growth and action.
Theories say that the Sleeper drones are fully developed strong AIs which remain in thrall to the lost Sleeper race. Because of the danger of the drones, direct study has been incredibly limited. Most scientists only have access to their wrecks, delivered by fortune-seeking capsuleers. However, it is hoped that the Arek’Jaalan will coordinate efforts and allow further research into the mysterious drones.
Recently, mysterious wormholes have been seen appearing around rogue drone infestations[11], drawing concern from Sansha's Nation forces which had been using wormholes as staging grounds for their invasions[12]. Soon after, a creature called an “Awakened Informorph” was spotted across New Eden near rogue drone structures and wormholes.[13] These sightings have left researchers baffled, with some worrying that the Sleeper Drones and Rogue Drones have formed some sort of alliance."
Courtesy of the wiki.
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I thought it had already been figured out that the sleepers were the Jovians sans bodies or something? "Sleeping" Jovians from the Second Jove Empire living in a Matrix style VR world or something? Or am I just crazy?
"Figured out" where "figured out" means "entirely revealed within Templar One to parties who will not talk about it to anyone for various reasons that may include being dead."
It's not really 'available' information IC, and Myyona's research paper that was released shortly before the book was never verified or validated by Hilen Tukoss, iirc, so IC it should be taken with a grain of salt. Unfortunately. :(
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I'm a little puzzled at your quandary re: podding. You're implying that the hardclone 'burn scan' retrieves some mystical and magical thing called 'consciousness', separate from science and utterly unfathomable, and wings it across the stars by unknown means. Exaggerated, but that's the logical premise of your question. Since Eve is a (relatively) hard science universe, though, this clearly isn't the case. A brain scanner simply reduces the memories and mind of an individual into data that can be fed through the relays to the appropriate destination. I'd honestly argue that an AI would find it easier to use a pod-style hardclone system, with some suitable adaptation to connect with the scanner - or even just use custom-built pod interfaces. We've got instant communication across the known universe, and the ability to send an entire mind's worth of data (can't be small) instantly as well (how else could some poor schmuck who got old fashioned doomsdayed in his pod still be around?)
I agree with this, the podding mechanism would be fairly easy for an AI. The hard part would be explaining away how CONCORD doesn’t come screaming in with pitchforks and torches. This isn’t some random capsuleer who doesn’t do any more evil than any other capsuleer but just happens to claim ties to the Angel Cartel…high level rogue AI is one of the things that seems to really freak them out.
I’m all about the Stargods being out reach of the mere baseliners but everything from PF and ingame mechanics suggest to me that while CONCORD can’t completely enforce their law over a bunch of demigods they still observe everything we do in highsec and quite a bit of what we do in low and null and pick their battles. They also have control the FTL network we use to interface with the market, chat with each other and transmit our minds over when we are podded. So, they'd know about him and be able to box him in pretty easy.
For an emergent AI, why not hide out among the rogue drones instead of exposing ones self to CONCORD by mimicking a capsuleer?
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I thought it had already been figured out that the sleepers were the Jovians sans bodies or something? "Sleeping" Jovians from the Second Jove Empire living in a Matrix style VR world or something? Or am I just crazy?
"Figured out" where "figured out" means "entirely revealed within Templar One to parties who will not talk about it to anyone for various reasons that may include being dead."
It's not really 'available' information IC, and Myyona's research paper that was released shortly before the book was never verified or validated by Hilen Tukoss, iirc, so IC it should be taken with a grain of salt. Unfortunately. :(
For the record, I never cared much about the sleeper lore but it seemed pretty obvious even to me thats what was up as soon as I explored my first WH. :yar: Well, I didn't know it was the Second Jovian Empire or what not but that somebody was napping in the Matrix because of a plauge was pretty clear. I think I said so on these forums too.
/smug
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Ok I lied, more smugness
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=967.0
I was under the impression that the sleepers drones worked like the androids in the movie surrogates and that is why they are called sleepers. Their bodies are in stasis while their minds interact in some virtual world and some of them are supposed to upload into the sleeper drones to protect the rest of them.
It could be that they don't even use their bodies anymore and their minds have been transferred into hardware, this mirror could be a back up for their minds in case they die or the main server for their virtual world 'shard' goes down.
No corroborating information to support that theory Grayson, sorry. It would appear that the Sleepers are just artificial intelligences that are emerged as needed.
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I think Synthia's construction - with the human flesh&blood robot controlled remotely, might be enough that DED can't get a warrant to take action. I.e. you could tell the robots were robots if you dissected them, but you'd need a warrant to do that. And so long as Synthia isn't breaking any laws, then that warrant will not be issued.
one of the DED actors said something along those lines anyway.
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I.e. you could tell the robots were robots if you dissected them, but you'd need a warrant to do that.
I think the Amarr epic arc kind of has stuff related to this, with the Sansha artificial impostor person. If you dissected them, you'd find the implants, and be able to go "hmm". But being able to arrest and do that to the impostor is almost impossible, given the status of the person they're impersonating.
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Or you could tell that they were really dedicated to their delusion.
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"Figured out" where "figured out" means "entirely revealed within Templar One to parties who will not talk about it to anyone for various reasons that may include being dead."
It's not really 'available' information IC, and Myyona's research paper that was released shortly before the book was never verified or validated by Hilen Tukoss, iirc, so IC it should be taken with a grain of salt. Unfortunately. :(
Ah yes, my master piece and culmination of my efforts into the A'J project. Let me be so bold to link the article here (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Sleeper_-_Jovian_Connection). One might notice, how I pull many different pieces together, like old COSMOS portals in Traun and bits of mission background info, and attempt to come up with a plausible explanation that can include them all. Quite contrary to Tony G, I say, who never hesitated to contradict previous pieces of lore if they did not fit into the story he wanted to tell.
And while yes, Dr. Tukoss never made an opinion on the article, it is really not necessary. The theory presented in the article was shown not to be directly wrong, given the OOC info provided by T1 (note: the article was written before I read T1). And as a theory, it is up to people to decide if they believe the evidence support it. If they think not, they would have to either present a different theory based on the same pieces of evidence or find new pieces to support a contradiction. Both things would have my interest.
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ah... A'J ... those were interesting times..
wrote a piece on the Rogue Drones myself, one that OOC, i can be almost certain is not correct, but that IC eerily fits the available information... it's on the wiki somewhere.
of course there are flaws in the reasoning, as it is written by Yuni, who is, for all intents and purposes a flawed construct... Got a little feedback from Tukoss regarding it... basically boiled down to "That sounds feasible, but i REALLY hope you're wrong" (to be honest, i really hope Yuni was wrong too, or the peeps at CCP might have some really nasty long term plans for the Rogues.)
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Just a quick update. I wanted to step back a little to try to de-emphasize myself, but I've noticed a few of you are still playing around with my concerns and trying to give me feedback and advice for the Z-ARK concept, which I really appreciate but isn't strictly necessary anymore.
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4912.0
There's a quick and dirty updated character biography, which I'll try to expand upon in the future and have already written the intro to a short companion piece I'll post sometime in the future.
I felt that, even if AI fascinates me and that I truly believe I could make the Z-ARK not only work within the RP community here, but thrive, it might be disingenuous and off-putting to some members here even in an OOC context. I know I used to hate people who would either ignore or manipulate established lore for a setting to their own ends. This is not to say I'm now anti-AI in Eve, I still think Yuni and Synthia are filling rather fascinating niches in Summit and beyond, but my idea is a bit too derivative of sci-fi classics and a bit pretentious (inasmuch as I find Z-ARK fascinating because I'm super weird, and I get that not everyone is this way).
That being said, I fucking hate retcons, and try to avoid them whenever I possibly can. So I hope my deus ex machina won't seem too contrived and that the new Zark will be, if not well received, than at least less confrontational. Honestly, forcing myself to think my way out of the box I'd forced myself into ended up making for a backstory that I am, in many ways, much more interested in exploring than Z-ARK's origins.
I still am not particularly looking forward to explaining this all to Stitcher IC, though. I can almost visualize his character's smug grin.