Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Aria Jenneth on 17 May 2013, 12:30
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Okay, so ... this is a very good IGS topic, right here.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=236349&p=2 (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=236349&p=2)
It is, however, also one running on a bare minimum of PF.
This sort of gray zone is an area where CCP has been known to just adopt player-created canon wholesale, so we should be careful how we approach it.
A few initial thoughts:
* We have little to no indication that the Achura are or have historically been a repressed minority. They joined the State voluntarily, apparently on account of largely shared values.
* Though they joined the Caldari, they were part of the Federation first-- so they knew the Gallente, and chose to side with the Caldari. This bespeaks a deeply conservative culture suspicious of individualism.
* However, they are also deeply spiritual people and much less materialistic than the Caldari. I've explained this in my own (naturally subject to change) quasi-canon as being a result of Saisio's tendency to "break things." The Caldari came of age on a snowball; the Achura came of age amid tectonic instability and fierce storms, rendering property transient. What an Achur knows in more important than what an Achur owns.
* In spite of which, their homeworld appears to be in SuVee's corporate fiefdom. SuVee is Practical, meaning more materialistic than the average mega, not less. This is not a recipe for peace and harmony unless SuVee is being very careful in its dealings with the Achura.
Gwen's interpretation, that SuVee's initial involvement on the Achur homeworld was a wee bit ham-fisted, would make a certain amount of sense canonically (and would mesh well with Aria's general opposition to SuVee's continued involvement with her homeworld-- the Achura, like the Caldari, have long memories). There are hints of tension between the Achura and Caldari, largely surrounding the (retconned?) Creator's Rod and the White Song. More specific accounts are lacking, but Gwen's version of events is plausible.
An interesting possibility (since Achur White Songbirds are apparently a "politically-correct" thing to have for lunch on Jita 4-4) is that the real threat to the White Song was habitat destruction-- megacorporate interests going, "Hm. Nice forest, but, nicer minerals underneath, so...." and the Achura going, "Wait, what? Sacred animal habitat! Keep your stinking materialistic hands OFF!" Then somebody says, "Hey, wait. We want you to leave White Song habitat alone, but we don't have a problem with people eating them so long as their population doesn't plummet. Haven't you Caldari guys been looking for an answer to the hanging long-limb?"
SuVee goes, "Ooo, profit-- and better relations with the natives. Eh, probably for the best." And a new Caldari delicacy is born.
Moving on:
* Exactly how high up the corporate totem pole Achura climb is a little ambiguous. It's also a little ambiguous how many of them want to; their starting Charisma is rock-bottom and most of the PF suggests that they admire teachers and scientists more than businesspeople.
* Exactly how well Achur underlings are treated by megacorporate superiors is also a little ambiguous. This was a big problem among the ethnic Caldari before Heth's rise, but we don't get much sense that the Achura were really taking sides there. Possibly, SuVee (and any other employers) has worked out that the Achura tend not to care too much about the pay as long as they get to go home to their families at night, the company treads lightly on intellectual property issues (I wouldn't put it past them to basically own the whole intellectual ferment of Saisio, permitting Achur scientists to publish their work freely among their own-- the whole planet's scientific dialog is all in-house), and nobody goes stomping on their religious practices.
* Actually, that's one important note: I (anti-corporate so-and-so that I am) tend to regard corporate entities OOC as psychopaths at worst, smart psychopaths at best. This does not, however, mean that even a truly ruthless corporation might not notice the value of keeping a society of scholars and scientists happy.
The Achura are like a little conclave of academia tucked in the middle of a massive corporate sea-- they're a goose that lays golden eggs. Give them research grants, high-tech toys, room to breathe, enough money to live comfortably on, and just generally stay out of their lives, and they'll occasionally hand you miracles. Even for the Practicals, that's got to sound like a pretty good deal.
The question, if that's an accurate read, is how long it took them to notice. It does seem likely that SuVee, when it first turned up, barely knew who the Achura were-- hardly anybody did. They kept to themselves. Likely, SuVee was sharpening up its cutlery and tying a napkin around its neck, and it probably took a few bites before noticing that the meal before it was substantially more interesting than the average ball of resources.
* One more thing to consider before I bring my little bit of brain-spillage to a close here: religion is ubiquitous on Achura. It is pervasive. Offworld, however, it is rare-- I know of maybe four practicing Achura in game right now, and one of those is a convert (if Vikarion is still practicing). There's got to be some reason for this, and the best I can think of right now is that religion on Achura is very much a community activity. Most Achura off-world feel cut off from their faith, and (being more than a little conformist) tend to adopt the beliefs of those around them, whether those be the Way of the Winds or a flatly secular outlook.
Thoughts?
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"Influenced by Sukuuvestaa, the Achura decided to join the Caldari in their secession as a client state. Their pre-industrial Achura Empire had been discovered by SuVee during the secret colonization many decades prior, and was uprooted and replaced by minority Caldari rule. This mostly affected major population centers, which were modernized to become full cities according to the Caldari standard. The rural areas were mostly ignored, dotted with thousands of Achura monasteries. Some were displaced for mining operations, but for the most part, Achura who had not been assimilated remained reclusive and introverted[4]."
"The rise of Tibus Heth and the Caldari Providence Directorate in YC110 would put emphasis on ethnic identity regardless of cultural compliance, the two being defined as synonymous with one another by the Provists. Hundreds of thousands of Federation expatriates were quarantined and unlawfully incarcerated/expulsed[6], while full State citizens of Gallente origin found themselves at the violent end of angry mobs[7]. Even Achura who were fully established as corporate citizens were targeted by radicals due to their distinct ethnic appearance, although this has since subsided following corporate action."
-from the Demographics of the Caldari State.
Thats what I have been going off of, I suspect Gwen as well.
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Couple other choice bits of possible relevance.
"The remaining 1-5% of the registered State population is primarily made up of the Achura, with a handful of Intaki and Khanid. They are expected to either shed all previous hallmarks of their identity (both publically and privately) and adapt to the Caldari way, or keep to themselves in small client communities isolated from the wider State."
"As the capsuleer training process is ostensibly Caldari in the State, their Achura identities and culture would be removed and replaced by the Caldari way. Because the wider Caldari put more emphasis on cultural compliance over ethnic origin, these encultured Achura are considered full citizens in equal standing. However, the independence granted to capsuleers means that many Achura after graduation choose to revert back to their original culture."
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Excellent. Source on those last two?
Also, can we get a link to the Demographics article? I haven't read it, and I suspect many of us (Vikarion included) have not.
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Ah sorry, they are from the same article just further down. To be fair to any older RP dudes I think that article is pretty new, some of the big content dump that happened when the new lore/live-event guys started doing their thing. I remember being so happy when I read it since it was pretty much the direction I was already going with Souch lol.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State)
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Hm. Well, that's going to require a little RP-tinkering. Several bits of old RP effectively retconned, etc.-- that's okay.
Okay. So-- no Gallente Federation membership; first contact was with SuVee (and what a lovely group to establish contact with). Achura is considered a client nation; individual Achura are NOT automatically granted State citizenship.
By implication, much of rural Achura (I kind of wish CCP would give us an easier time distinguishing between the people and the planet) is likely still pre-industrial. Aria's knives are probably not so out of date as all that.
Hmm ... the Elder Visionaries. It's curious-- the Achur religion is described elsewhere as not actually very organized. Perhaps the Visionaries are a sort of conclave of monastic sect leaders? Regardless, they don't seem to be all that bothered about SuVee's influence, perhaps because SuVee hasn't actually gone trying to off the Achur culture and faith. Still, Aria's belief that the State is a protective "shell" around her home culture begins to seem a bit more like drinking the proverbial Kool-Aid.
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I am inclined to believe that Souch is being overly cynical and the others overly optimistic. That the historical truth lies somewhere between the two. When thinking about backstory I pictured early Achur being composed largely of city-states, each with their own monastry connected to it. An annoying difficulty is having no idea where the Achur were in their development when they met the Caldari. Little technological development so some kind of late Renaissance? 20th century early space age? No idea lol.
How the whole thing went down would be interesting as well. A joyous meeting of long lost space bros that went a little one-sided when corporate interests got involved? Did the Elder Visionaries sell their people out to preserve their religious beliefs in the face of an impossible foe from space? Was there in fact no existent world government at the time and the EVs are a Caldari creation or a reaction to meeting them? Again, no idea lol.
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Well, the article does indicate that the Caldari supplanted the existing Achur empire and reshaped the cities in their own image. (Now that's the SuVee I know and loathe.) This implies the existence of, likely, a global empire, possibly rivaling the Raata in its grandeur ...
... except that the Achura don't seem to mourn it much. Sic transit gloria mundi. Now if somebody can just translate that into Chinese..
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Good point, forgot about that.
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I was going to cite my sources for Gwen's arguement here, but Souchek seems to have mostly beaten me to it. Not that I think everything coming out of her mouth is pure PF - She's highlighting the worst aspects of the Caldari's approach to the Achur and playing them up to the extreme for the sake of the arguement, and because her own negative personal experience casts them in such a light.
Regarding the Elder Visionaries, I always assumed they were sort of a consulate of spiritual leaders of various forms in a rather disoragnized structure. Heads of prominent monastaries, philosophers, respected regional figures... Wisdom and insight seem to be the qualities the Achur value the most highly - It stands to reason their own little meritocracy (And I assume it's a meritocracy, I'd be baffled that they'd associate with the State if they elect their leaders democratically) would be based on these attributes rather then more Caldari ones like loyalty, efficiency, diligence, etc.
My own little bit of fanon that I wouldn't dare incorporate into roleplay, since it has no basis, is that they were sort of an advisory group to the ancient Imperial Family that would handle more trivial aspects of administration delegated to them, before SuVee came and knocked the proverbial head off the serpent and planted their own... And they continue to serve that role, in a sense, with the autonomy SuVee now grants them.
And about the "Achura Empire", this article provides a little (And by little, I mean literally a tiny bit) more information that I have been going off from. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Achuran_songbird
There's more I want to say, but I'm a bit preoccupied, so I'll come back to this topic later.
Sic transit gloria mundi. Now if somebody can just translate that into Chinese..
Rì luò xī shān. Roughly: "The sun falls beyond the western hills." An era has come to it's natural end, as all things must.
...What? I've done a lot of roleplay in eastern settings.
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Interesting, I seem to remember reading a discussion on achur history somewhere and there was an item description that had some interesting PF. Trying to find it but google-fu is failing me lol.
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Whoops. Meant to modify my post and quoted it instead!
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I was wondering if it was good or bad form to simply link the Demographics of the Caldari State article on the IGS thread when asked to provide sources. I am of two minds about it, mostly because of the perception of trying to "win" something In-Character that is not necessarily an In-Character source.
Also, I thought the Achurans were a Japanese derivative like the Caldari? Mandarin Chinese nomenclature seemed in the realm of the Jin-Mei (Mei-ha, Tei-Su, Hulang, Sang Do, Saan Go, Jing Ko, etc.)
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I was wondering if it was good or bad form to simply link the Demographics of the Caldari State article on the IGS thread when asked to provide sources. I am of two minds about it, mostly because of the perception of trying to "win" something In-Character that is not necessarily an In-Character source.
Also, I thought the Achurans were a Japanese derivative like the Caldari? Mandarin Chinese nomenclature seemed in the realm of the Jin-Mei (Mei-ha, Tei-Su, Hulang, Sang Do, Saan Go, Jing Ko, etc.)
Achura culture seems to have a lot more in common with that of Ancient China/Tibet then of Japan - Their defining quality has always been established to be their spiritualism and their lack of great interest in material affairs and the outside world... Wheras Japan has always been a society very much rooted in military tradition. Not very Achurly (pardon the awful coinage) at all.
And while there does seem to be a bit of Shinto flavour amongst the Buddhist and Taoist tones to the Achur faith, I wouldn't take it far enough to say it's truly utterly rooted in it.
Honestly, though, Jin-Mei and Achura both seem to effectively be hodgepodges of far eastern cultures with slightly different flavours, without much real in depth exploration. So the only real thing to tie them to one of the other is language, and with the way people roleplay a million and one dialects coming from any given origin world, well... I don't think it really makes much difference, to be honest.
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I see alot of what the Achur face as in many respects being similar to minority ethnic or religious communities in communist China. It's Caldari culture that remains dominant in the State and it is Caldari corporations that have all the power, control and authority but most importantly the access to force. Achur that disagree with Caldari corporate authority or express an opinion counter to what the big posters saying, "Caldari-Achur Friendship Forever" face the risk of persecution, discrimination, being branded as dissidents or having the corporate paramilitary deployed into their village to pacify the unrest caused by seditionists, insurrectionists and spies who have to be put down to ensure Peace & Order so that villagers can be relocated and the greater good served with the next new and exciting Sukuuvestaa development and investment opportunity.
I sometimes have a little chuckle when Caldari characters decry the Federation for cultural imperialism when the Caldari State is but a few degrees removed from the 19th century British Empire in its sense of cultural superiority, destiny and ability to use private companies to give the shaft to the natives as they are provided with the benefits of Caldari civilization.
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Interesting, I seem to remember reading a discussion on achur history somewhere and there was an item description that had some interesting PF. Trying to find it but google-fu is failing me lol.
\o/ *points down at the amazing powers of Morwen!*
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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1445151#post1445151
The "Ceremonial Brush" item still exists ingame in the database, so it can be linked. As far as I know, however, it and most other items like it still do not drop anywhere.
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I see alot of what the Achur face as in many respects being similar to minority ethnic or religious communities in communist China. It's Caldari culture that remains dominant in the State and it is Caldari corporations that have all the power, control and authority but most importantly the access to force. Achur that disagree with Caldari corporate authority or express an opinion counter to what the big posters saying, "Caldari-Achur Friendship Forever" face the risk of persecution, discrimination, being branded as dissidents or having the corporate paramilitary deployed into their village to pacify the unrest caused by seditionists, insurrectionists and spies who have to be put down to ensure Peace & Order so that villagers can be relocated and the greater good served with the next new and exciting Sukuuvestaa development and investment opportunity.
I sometimes have a little chuckle when Caldari characters decry the Federation for cultural imperialism when the Caldari State is but a few degrees removed from the 19th century British Empire in its sense of cultural superiority, destiny and ability to use private companies to give the shaft to the natives as they are provided with the benefits of Caldari civilization.
And yet, again, the Achura do not seem to share, for example, the Tibetan sense of their status as an oppressed minority (or local majority). There is no indication of significant (barely even insignificant) Achur discontent or separatism. None.
Which is fascinating, actually. Most societies subject to that kind of domination chafe under the yoke.
One thing I wonder a lot about is what being a "client" of SuVee means, as applied to a pre-industrial civilization. As a thought, it probably means an introduction to knowledge and trade, acting as an intermediary between that culture and the rest of the cluster-- and hundreds of years have passed since.
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Morwen, your awesome.
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And yet, again, the Achura do not seem to share, for example, the Tibetan sense of their status as an oppressed minority (or local majority). There is no indication of significant (barely even insignificant) Achur discontent or separatism. None.
Which is fascinating, actually. Most societies subject to that kind of domination chafe under the yoke.
One thing I wonder a lot about is what being a "client" of SuVee means, as applied to a pre-industrial civilization. As a thought, it probably means an introduction to knowledge and trade, acting as an intermediary between that culture and the rest of the cluster-- and hundreds of years have passed since.
It's a function of available of information, there's nothing to say that there cannot exist unrest in Saisio but SuVee is just great at repressing that information and ensuring it doesn't get a mention in State media. The State was meritocratic, stable and ordered society externally until worker's revolts and the Brothers of Freedom which lead to the rise of the CPD could not be contained. Just because the storyline team has not mentioned Achuran separatism does not invalidate it as a viewpoint or as a plausible perspective Achurans may form as a minority population in the State.
Perception is reality in Eve due to the inability to access any actual hard data or bodies of work. The Achur being a well-integrated and tolerated culture and society in the State is just as true as their being a repressed minority facing discrimination and persecution in addition to everything inbetween dependent on how a player or character views the issue.
It's a rather simple affair for any player or character to substitute another perspective on reality with their own and still remain consistent within the PF and lore because consensus isn't required for fictional interaction.
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Just because the storyline team has not mentioned Achuran separatism does not invalidate it as a viewpoint or as a plausible perspective Achurans may form as a minority population in the State.
Against a backdrop of extremely strong PF surrounding, say, Intaki separatists, the farthest I will go is conceding that it is perfectly valid to play an individual Achur separatist. Claiming something larger, such as widespread support for secession among the Achura, strikes me as a bridge too far.
I watched Boma Airaken try for years to inspire CCP to take the "Achur separatists" ball and run with it. They never did, and he did very well developing his character around these frustrated attempts, becoming increasingly bitter and alienated IC.
The State was meritocratic, stable and ordered society externally until worker's revolts and the Brothers of Freedom which lead to the rise of the CPD could not be contained.
The State was actually portrayed as riven with discontent for years before the Brothers of Freedom. There was a constant rumble from dissidents, and there were ongoing storylines hinting at Gallentean efforts to undermine State culture. Corporate abuses were widely publicized and much debated. That was the time during which the Guristas developed their patina of respectability as kinda-sorta rebels with a cause, thanks partly to TonyG before the melodrama became too obvious. (Believe it or not, there was a time when "Ruthless" was considered required reading for Caldari loyalists.)
It was coming for ages.
The Achura? The largest rumbling of discontent we've gotten as far as I can recall was a minor fit of controversy over the White Song. That and the apparently no longer canonical "Creator's Rod" mission cycle.
CCP's setting thrives on conflict. Where they want it, it tends to get at least hinted at. What we get for the Achura casts their relationship to the world around them less in terms of their sense of grievance and more in terms of their sense of curiosity.
Play as you see fit, Gesakaarin, but a poem does not mean whatever the reader decides it does. It's entirely possible to be simply, flatly wrong, and I say that as someone who is going to have to retroactively adjust a pile of character background and accompanying attitudes on account of this article. Separatism is too important a topic for us to take the lead on where there is no preexisting thread to follow, nothing to extrapolate from.
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I hope no ones getting the impression that my character is pushing any sort of seperatist agenda with her contributions to the thread - Disrespect from Caldari characters has just finally pushed her to the point where she's no longer willing to completely avoid speaking her mind about how her people seem to be generally regarded. It's sort of an interesting dynamic having her be one of the only Achura not having been exposed to enough State culture to avoid feeling alienated.
In fact, in my opinion, seperatism seems a political platform that would sort of conflict with the Achur's "keep to your own affairs and don't leave big ripples in the pond" worldview. If there's a group of Achura that feel discontent with the State, it seems more probable that they would simply up and depart then attempt to make some sort of awkwardly forceful and painful fuss in an attempt to completely change their races place in the cluster.
And if the Demographics article for the Federation is any suggestion (with some Achura having been established as holding onto their original culture in small pockets quite adamantly) then this can already be assumed to have taken place on several occasions.
Edit: Also - I should say, I really don't envy anyone having to revise their characters in response to all this. My apologies is dragging this into the limelight has caused any stress.
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I've always played Pieter as being ignorant of the Achur rather than dismissive. And HE was decanted in the Abagawa system and later stationed in the Saisio system - where he would have had more exposure to Achur than most Caldari.
But the Achur are notoriously insular. I doubt many of them (until lately) even bothered to take the shuttles to the up port. Heck, I bet they're even outnumbered around the down ports!
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Play as you see fit, Gesakaarin, but a poem does not mean whatever the reader decides it does. It's entirely possible to be simply, flatly wrong, and I say that as someone who is going to have to retroactively adjust a pile of character background and accompanying attitudes on account of this article. Separatism is too important a topic for us to take the lead on where there is no preexisting thread to follow, nothing to extrapolate from.
Of course I play as I want, which I would say that given the vast scale and size of New Eden and its factions I feel absolutely no need to enter into PF canon legalism which I find leads only to arbitrariness, pedantry and doctrinaire discussion which stifles creative ability in attempting to dictate to others based on a fictional body of work that is both contradictory and insufficient. The background fiction to me exists solely to provide the basis for constructing in-character perspective, opinion and worldview that should entirely be up to a player to decide and define for themselves.
For me to say otherwise would be like saying I objectively know everything there is to know about a society and culture because I happened to read a travel guide about it -- and that to me is an apt analogy given the gulf between the Eve fiction and lore as provided by CCP and the realization that it will always be insufficient given the fact the very societies they describe are vast interstellar factions encompassing billions to trillions of people.
That is besides the point that trying to base interactions solely upon what little information does grant leads to nothing more than trying to build castles upon foundations of sand because CCP has the prerogative to do as they please with their fiction and it's all always going to be a very real possibility that just because a viewpoint has not been elaborated at present that it won't be in the future - to use the current topic as an example, just because CCP has not released any information regarding potential Achuran separatism is no guarantee that they won't in the future.
Now, whilst I can give thanks to the content and storyline team for their continued work and efforts in bringing to life the rich tapestry of New Eden I don't need CCP approval for the creation of conflict in RP, because that conflict should arise out of competing and adversarial perspectives, opinions and worldviews defined by players for their characters that is plausible and believable within the fictional framework. To deprive players of that ability leads to nothing more than potentially waiting an eternity spinning ships for CCP Godot to hold people's hands and to provide special validation instead of trusting one's own creativity to provide the interaction, developments, and complexities required.
Because in a game which offers so much freedom and scope such as Eve has to offer, it's amazing at times for me to see roleplayers pre-occupied more with PF dogmatism instead of seeking to create their own content and define their own destinies. Sometimes I think Eve RP has lost that ability to openly discuss differing interpretations on the fiction instead preferring to wait for CCP to spoonfeed content in order to browbeat each other over points of canon doctrine worse than a bunch of cardinals in Rome.
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Okay, so having read the Demographics article with more detail and care, a few patterns emerge-- including why there is no substantial Achur separatist movement.
Most Achura do indeed remain on their homeworld as corporate subjects of SuVee. These subjects have been assimilated into Caldari society-- they are not Achura living in Caldari cities; they are Caldari. Presumably, they persist as a separate ethnic group mostly because of the Caldari practice of arranged marriages between individuals of similar appearance (the way the Deteis and Civire have remained ethnically and culturally distinct). "Half-breeds" (like almost every Achur PC I know of, for some reason) (no, I'm not an exception) are looked down on.
The Achura living in rural, monastic communities are a relatively small minority of their own bloodline, and largely isolated from the State. These are the Achura ruled over by what seems (by cross-referencing sources) to be an exceptionally disorganized theocracy made up of dozens of sects led by the Elder Visionaries. As a client state, they are considered "protected," but must effectively convert to the Caldari way of life, religion, etc., if they wish to live in the cities, enter corporate employment, etc.
Extremely interestingly, this seems to be the community that produces most Achur capsuleers.
This answers several questions.
First of all, the Achura do not rebel because they haven't got the fading ghost of a prayer of succeeding. SuVee has been on Achura for at least two hundred years, and the "indigenous" Achur people are a minority on their own world. Most of the planet's population are Achura by blood only. They're good little SuVee citizens, functionally Caldari. If the remaining Achura rebel, they stand to lose their protected status and become nonentities-- legal "nonpersons" within the State. This would be tantamount to cultural suicide, entitling SuVee to brush them aside at will or to wipe them out if it saw fit.
Also, ironically, they're also more fully independent of State control than any of us anticipated or appreciated. As a client community of the Caldari, they are expected to mostly keep to themselves, and apparently have been content to do so.
Secondly, references to Achur leaders in various places do, in fact, refer to leaders outside of the megacorporate structure: the Elder Visionaries. Presumably the monasteries are not their only domain, if only because not all rural Achura need live in one. A lot of details about the lives of rural Achura remain unexplored, such as how high the local technological level is, but we can maybe get a few ideas from the "background" notes, because ...
Thirdly, we're all rural Achura now. All of the possible backgrounds for the Achura bloodline find their foundation in some aspect of the highly-inquisitive, intellectual Achur culture-- which is extinct in the cities. The Stargazers look for answers (or at least metaphors) externally, in the heavens; the Monks look within themselves through martial practice, seeking the perfection of their souls; and the Inventors pluck ideas from the mind of the universal consciousness. Individual characters can, of course, claim to be from other backgrounds, and fair play to them. However, it appears that virtually all Achur capsuleers were drawn to the capsule by Achur cultural traits-- and, ironically, adopted the Caldari culture to obtain capsuleer access.
EEEEEEEEE!
It's freaking fascinating! CCP hasn't given us an info dump this good since they wrote the bloodline up for character creation! This, right here, THIS is worth rewriting a character background for.
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The Achura strike me as people that might choose the path of least resistance. That there is no visible discontent may be because if one desires to not be assimilated, there are ways to avoid that. The quotes from the demographics article indicate to me that the Achura culture as a whole is not threatened, and while you might not call the rural areas of Achur seperatist, they can practically be considered seperate from the state, in my opinion. Perhaps while the entire rural area of Achur may cover a lot of the planet, it could still be considered a "small client community" within the state, where plenty of Achura can live the way they desire. I think the State-Rural Achur situation is a bit like the Amish communities within the USA, both in relative size and interaction between the cultures, and possibly even with the relatively low-tech way of life.
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I think the State-Rural Achur situation is a bit like the Amish communities within the USA, both in relative size and interaction between the cultures, and possibly even with the relatively low-tech way of life.
Well-- I'm not sure the Amish get to make their own laws, for example. Perhaps a better example would be the Native American tribes in the US-- only with most of the planet as their reservation? And probably without the active attempts (forty or so years ago, yes yes) to destroy their culture?
I'm not sure about the low tech. Perhaps relative to the highly tech-focused Caldari, but remember that Inventors are one of the respected Achur backgrounds, and they're certainly not wholly ignorant of interstellar culture. Also, apparently they're routinely capable of producing individuals fit for capsuleer training in the State. I'm guessing the candidates for such positions need a higher than "pre-industrial" level of technical sophistication.
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A quick word on your assessment, Aria - Where does it say that Achura living in the cities have been forced to completely abandon their own culture? I took the "corporate subjects" statement to refer to all the Achur on the planet, with the Elder Visionaries being an entity that is recognized throughout the planet, but only practically control the rural areas where SuVee's influence is extremely weak. I didn't read the distinction as a hard line between two that you seemed to, where the Achura in the cities are all universally "Caldari", and those in the countryside are not.
...That also wouldn't make a great deal of sense in regard to cultural development and osmosis.
I'm also not sure about them being the "majority" of the people on the planet, but I suppose that's entirely subjective/not actually very important.
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Tch. Note to self: show your work.
Where are those quotes....
Most ethnic Achura are subjects of SuVee.
The vast majority of Achura can be found on their homeworld as corporate subjects of the Sukuuvestaa corporation.
Corporate citizens must be culturally Caldari.
Caldari are often mistaken to be racist, as they are extremely intolerant of individuals practicing non-Caldari customs in the State, commonly foreigners and expatriates. Caldari society is not pluralistic, meaning any individual who wishes to become a full citizen (even ethnic Caldari born in the Federation) must abandon all previous marks of identity and adapt to the State’s meticulous standard.
Originally I had doubts about the implications of "citizen" versus "subject," but further reading shows the Caldari practicing a strict policy of cultural (not racial) apartheid. The Achura are not an exception. Those in the cities were assimilated. Those in the rural areas remained reclusive introverts.
Their pre-industrial Achura Empire ... was uprooted and replaced by minority Caldari rule. This mostly affected major population centers, which were modernized to become full cities according to the Caldari standard. The rural areas were mostly ignored, dotted with thousands of Achura monasteries. Some were displaced for mining operations, but for the most part, Achura who had not been assimilated remained reclusive and introverted.
The phrasing surrounding which category of Achura were not assimilated implies that they were in the rural areas. The "Caldari standard" practiced in the cities appears, then, to mean culturally Caldari, as well as architecturally. In order to be properly part of the State, one has to accept its culture. For the Achura living in Caldari cities to differ culturally, they would have to move out.
The remaining 1-5% of the registered State population is primarily made up of the Achura, with a handful of Intaki and Khanid. They are expected to either shed all previous hallmarks of their identity (both publically and privately) and adapt to the Caldari way, or keep to themselves in small client communities isolated from the wider State.
Emphasis mine. This is exactly what the rural Achura do. The Caldari would not tolerate a culturally-distinct group living in their cities.
Note that Achura must adopt Caldari culture to be considered for capsuleer training.
As the capsuleer training process is ostensibly Caldari in the State, their Achura identities and culture would be removed and replaced by the Caldari way. Because the wider Caldari put more emphasis on cultural compliance over ethnic origin, these encultured Achura are considered full citizens in equal standing.
That's us. Happily, we can revert.
However, the independence granted to capsuleers means that many Achura after graduation choose to revert back to their original culture.
The "introverted" Achura mentioned in our bloodline description are the ones who maintain the old culture in the rural areas of the homeworld. This is the domain of the Achura as a "client people," as opposed to "Caldari of Achur ethnicity."
The rural areas were mostly ignored, dotted with thousands of Achura monasteries. Some were displaced for mining operations, but for the most part, Achura who had not been assimilated remained reclusive and introverted....
While there is an autonomous Achura government known as the Elder Visionaries, they mostly control the monasteries in the rural areas of the homeworld. The Elder Visionaries are as reclusive and introverted as an entity can be whilst still participating in cluster affairs, primarily in the areas of interstellar religion.
The alternative to formalized, protected isolation, however, is infinitely worse.
Like with every interstellar empire in New Eden, there are numerous minor races and civilizations that exist in Caldari borders. Unless they choose to enter a client agreement with a State megacorporation, which very few do, these groups are treated as non-entities and are not accounted for in the system. They have no rights or protections, meaning they are frequently displaced or otherwise removed should a megacorporation require it. As the Caldari code of honor typically only applies to fellow Caldari, these incidents are not regarded as an ethical consideration in the State. The utilitarian outlook of the Caldari megacorporations means that they will not sacrifice majority gain for the rights of an obscure non-Caldari minority.
Cheery stuff, no?
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Erk. Well, that about does it, then. I'd been taking "corporate subjects" to not necessarily mean actual members of the corporation, merely people living largely at their mercy, but if you link those statements together I must admit it doesn't appear paticularly likely.
C'est la vie. I was kind of hoping it wasn't the case, but I suppose I'll have to adjust my roleplay as well around the fact that the Achur culture is probably indominant and not very much respected even on their own homeworld.
...
Bahh - I shouldn't go off topic, yet... Call it blending, but I confess it bothers me a bit OOCly that all eastern or far eastern inspired cultures in EVE are essentially submissive and in decline towards ones that are, predominantly, European. The Caldari are a mild exception, but their Japanese influence seems to be increasingly downplayed, and they're... Well, white, on top of that, to be frank.
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White racially, maybe, but not culturally, at least in my opinion.
The Caldari sacrifice individual fulfilment for the greater good. That is so far and away from Western Culture that it would render the Caldari culture baffling to most of the West. Read the Demographics again - this isn't the lip service to cooperative goals and ideals that we practice at home, it's a very real commitment, to the point where openly displaying excessive wealth is seen as ostentatious and a large amount of policing in the State is done by peer norming.
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I was kind of hoping it wasn't the case, but I suppose I'll have to adjust my roleplay as well around the fact that the Achur culture is probably indominant and not very much respected even on their own homeworld.
Don't take it too hard. Stitcher's open-mindedness now makes him flat-out jaalan.
This throws another couple of piquant twists into Aria's background-- probably Gwen's, too. Also, check it out: we get to represent a minor cultural group distinguished largely by being, proportionally, overwhelmingly overrepresented as a percentage of Caldari capsuleers. And we took shameless advantage of the State to get here.
Bahh - I shouldn't go off topic, yet... Call it blending, but I confess it bothers me a bit OOCly that all eastern or far eastern inspired cultures in EVE are essentially submissive and in decline towards ones that are, predominantly, European. The Caldari are a mild exception, but their Japanese influence seems to be increasingly downplayed, and they're... Well, white, on top of that, to be frank.
Eh-- CCP named its only ethnicity of obvious African descent the "Brutor," a bit of flagrant race fail that I wish they would find some way to correct. I can think of ways to defend them on this, but I'm not sure I want to bother; it's pretty clear that they were thinking in a typically Eurocentric manner when they designed the core bloodlines.
Of course, in their defense (I guess I'll bother a little), they don't give any whiff of suggesting that this is the way it should be. They even made the game's most frequent and obvious racists a bunch of (frequently bald) white guys. Then again, the darker skinned folks only managed their revolt with the help of another group of white folks ... or maybe veinous folks, if you count the Jove.
Also, you may wish to consider the implications of large numbers of Achur infomorphs for the Caldari State before you write our culture off as in decline (at least irreversibly). This seems to have the makings of a resurgence, donchathink?
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I used to see the Achurans as sort of the Caldari's Pet the Dog moment, a "well, they can't be all bad, after all, the Achurans preferred them to the Federation and they've respected Achuran culture", but that's been quite obviously ret-conned.
Don't worry about causing my character any problems, Gwen - at this point, I can't say that I really give a damn about Eve's story or RP.
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White racially, maybe, but not culturally, at least in my opinion.
The Caldari sacrifice individual fulfilment for the greater good. That is so far and away from Western Culture that it would render the Caldari culture baffling to most of the West. Read the Demographics again - this isn't the lip service to cooperative goals and ideals that we practice at home, it's a very real commitment, to the point where openly displaying excessive wealth is seen as ostentatious and a large amount of policing in the State is done by peer norming.
There are "western" examples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communal_work#Talkoot), with the specific one I linked to picked for rather obvious reasons. Also, talking about the Finnish voluntary community work, "the voluntary nature might be imaginary due to social pressure".
On non-European bloodlines, CCP just probably didn't even think about it, Iceland is pretty isolated. Example of cultural differences: Russians use "neger" (negro) to refer to black Africans. Exchange students who come to Finland (for example the university I work at) quickly notice that across the border, that's a no-no word used only by racists. Go forty years - or perhaps less - back, and it didn't have any negative meanings here, either. This makes some old TV commercials look hilariously racist by modern terms.
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Don't take it too hard. Stitcher's open-mindedness now makes him flat-out jaalan.
This throws another couple of piquant twists into Aria's background-- probably Gwen's, too. Also, check it out: we get to represent a minor cultural group distinguished largely by being, proportionally, overwhelmingly overrepresented as a percentage of Caldari capsuleers. And we took shameless advantage of the State to get here.
That'd be a little closer to the truth if there were more people roleplaying as "Rural" Achur instead of mostly Caldari ones. Honestly, if you hadn't been pretty much for the first person to engage me in serious roleplay after I started, I might well have ended up pushing the same angle. (Due to lack of knowing better, I should clarify.)
Still, there's a certain something to be said for being one of the few with the desire and fortitude to hold onto the original culture, and the interesting conflicts that might grow out of that. After all, being part of a fairly weak and marginalized group can make for quite interesting roleplay, despite what grievances I might have OOCly for the fact it was written that way.
Eh-- CCP named its only ethnicity of obvious African descent the "Brutor," a bit of flagrant race fail that I wish they would find some way to correct. I can think of ways to defend them on this, but I'm not sure I want to bother; it's pretty clear that they were thinking in a typically Eurocentric manner when they designed the core bloodlines.
Amusing story, here. I tried to get a friend to play EVE online a bit after I started myself back in the summer, and after a few minutes of toying around with the character creator, she turned to me and said, "So... The only black people in the universe are tribal warriors called BRUTE-ors? ...Really? Why are all the leading races white? Was this game made by Nazis?"
Yeeeeaaah. She didn't end up playing. If they're going to retcon anything severe in the future, it should be that name.
Of course, in their defense (I guess I'll bother a little), they don't give any whiff of suggesting that this is the way it should be. They even made the game's most frequent and obvious racists a bunch of (frequently bald) white guys. Then again, the darker skinned folks only managed their revolt with the help of another group of white folks.
That's really what I meant. Good or bad, most of the notable stuff in the universe is both done and about Caucasians. I wouldn't, I should clarify, at all suggest that CCP is actively racist in any sense of the word. They just, probably without even thinking about it much, constructed a very "eurocentric" world, as you put it. Hopefully this'll shift with time. I know it already has, somewhat.
... or maybe veinous folks, if you count the Jove.
Funny you should mention that - Gwen, ICly, actually has a pet theory that Achura and the Jove are schisms from the same race. Which would provide a very interesting counterexample to my peeve, in a way. Though she rarely says it outloud, due to the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist.
I'll admit OOCly that it's unlikely, but there is some evidence to support it - Both highly introspective cultures in which the line between science and faith is thin (The SoCT idea of "Universal Truth" sounds like something an Achur would come up with), both incredibly prone to reclusiveness, both incredibly obsessed with gaining understanding in all it's forms... And both apparantly, judging by the Jovian ship names, with the penchant for stories about vengeful ghosts. (See the Achura section of the "Death" article.)
Not to mention that Saisio isn't too far off Jovian space.
Also, you may wish to consider the implications of large numbers of Achur infomorphs for the Caldari State before you write our culture off as in decline (at least irreversibly). This seems to have the makings of a resurgence, donchathink?
...Hmm. That's an interesting idea. Especially considering the implications of CCPs general intent with the storyline to make Capsuleers carry much more weight in the state of the Empires (or what's left of them) in the future. Could be something worth approaching in roleplay at some point or another - Maybe some sort of venture or corp based around preserving the culture offworld.
Something to think about.
I used to see the Achurans as sort of the Caldari's Pet the Dog moment, a "well, they can't be all bad, after all, the Achurans preferred them to the Federation and they've respected Achuran culture", but that's been quite obviously ret-conned.
Don't worry about causing my character any problems, Gwen - at this point, I can't say that I really give a damn about Eve's story or RP.
:(
I'm sorry you feel that way.
One thing that I learned from roleplaying my Alliance character on WoW for several years was that, in MMO roleplay, you have to get used to rolling with the punches, even when it seems like a quite literal beatdown. Otherwise it's just not worth the bother, since you'll always be completely at the mercy of an often inexperienced, likely underpaid, and constantly shifting writing team.
It's the price you pay for playing in a really long-term setting with a huge pool of people. Build your sandcastles away from the established lore, accept the fact that they'll sometimes get knocked down, or just... Don't, at all, I think.
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Hey lol, I am a Rural Achur.
I'm with Aria's (later) interpretation of how the culture is broken down. Pretty much explains my argument in IGS. Now that being said I also would say that whatever went down in the past it is likely that by this point there is little constant strife. Souchek's anger towards the Caldari is based less on their mutual history and more on recent events in his life that directly effected him. Also it is less that he advocates succesion and more a sort of equal rights to power.
As for the whole Caldari are evil thing, I think that once all the :TonyG: is pared away your still going to need some darkness. This seems an actual logical place for it.
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I was very pleased to discover the mentioned EVElopedia article while fleshing out Shiori a bit. It's quite good worldbuilding. I assumed it was older and more common knowledge, or I would've kicked up more of a fuss about it.
I very much like the notion of "rural" Achura becoming capsuleers en masse. It makes sense; even without the transhumanism and unity-with-everyghing angles, if your culture is very much oriented towards the stars, are you going to let little things like brain lock, clone death and invasive surgical procedures get in your way if you're told you can actually reach them?
Who's up for starting a native-Achura channel for us to be snooty about other, lesser capsuleers in?
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I am in so many channels lol, but yeah start one up and I will jump in it for sure.
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Just remembered this tidbit also.
"Wayism is not an evangelical religion, and most Caldari take it as simply a fact of the universe, not a truth to be spread. The general attitude of most Caldari to nonbelievers is that it is their right to believe in whatever god or gods they like, as Wayism is very much centered on the Caldari people themselves anyway. The Achura, and to a lesser extent the Intaki, are considered to have a different understanding of the same realities, which is one of the reasons that the Caldari were eager to incorporate both into the State."
From http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_spirituality (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_spirituality)
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I used to see the Achurans as sort of the Caldari's Pet the Dog moment, a "well, they can't be all bad, after all, the Achurans preferred them to the Federation and they've respected Achuran culture", but that's been quite obviously ret-conned.
Don't worry about causing my character any problems, Gwen - at this point, I can't say that I really give a damn about Eve's story or RP.
Pity. I rather liked roleplaying with you, and this article actually makes Achur RP abundantly more interesting. It screws with our quasi-canon, but that was always kind of a ramshackle structure of speculation. Further, this article does a fine job of threading the needle of what we DID have; there was always kind of a, "Wait, what? The Achura have leaders who aren't corporate?" whenever relations with the Achura as a group were mentioned.
The question of any given culture being "bad" or not doesn't really interest me-- after all, our own cultural outlook is very Gallente-ish, so we're bound to look at things largely from their (our own) perspective. Looking at Eve's worldbuilding as an experiment in "what if" rather than a grand melodrama strikes me as being what separates the core vision from Tony G. Passing judgment detracts from the exercise of putting ourselves in others' shoes.
Just remembered this tidbit also.
"Wayism is not an evangelical religion, and most Caldari take it as simply a fact of the universe, not a truth to be spread. The general attitude of most Caldari to nonbelievers is that it is their right to believe in whatever god or gods they like, as Wayism is very much centered on the Caldari people themselves anyway. The Achura, and to a lesser extent the Intaki, are considered to have a different understanding of the same realities, which is one of the reasons that the Caldari were eager to incorporate both into the State."
From http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_spirituality (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_spirituality)
Hm. On the face of it, there's some PF dissonance there. But ...
Okay. The Caldari don't seem to take the Way as something to evangelize-- but their culture (of which the Way is an aspect) is very strict about maintaining its own integrity. It may be that Intaki and Achura who conform in all other respects to the Caldari way of life are permitted to practice their faiths in private (a privilege, or oversight, otherwise reserved to the Khanid). There was also that weird bit with CCP hanging a lampshade on "the star" (the really bright one that appeared on every star field in New Eden at once and then went "poof" a year or so later), where there were obvious practicing Achura literally peddling lessons in communing with the star as a method of improving your career prospects.
So, here's an option. (1) Achura wishing to join State society must set aside their native culture and adopt the Caldari way of life both publicly and privately. This precludes maintaining old Achur roles, so the Achur culture is still relegated to the sticks. (2) However, the Achur and Intaki faiths are taken as "alternate versions" of the Way of the Winds; difference in this area is not seen as significant (or maybe even as actual difference), except by extremists. (3) The "mostly" in the note that the Elder Visionaries "mostly control the monasteries" may indicate that urban Achura still pay them some small amount of attention for the sake of refining their own understanding of their faith.
Conformity: maintained, within allowable limits.
Diversity of belief: allowed for, within allowable limits (other perspectives are okay so long as everybody's looking at the same object).
Cultural Achura: still marginalized outsiders, but that's maybe slightly less painful in this scenario since the Caldari recognize them as close relations in terms of faith.
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It's the price you pay for playing in a really long-term setting with a huge pool of people. Build your sandcastles away from the established lore, accept the fact that they'll sometimes get knocked down, or just... Don't, at all, I think.
I think that the writing for WoW might be considered primae facie evidence that one shouldn't bother. :P
Anyway, it's unwise to build sandcastles on a beach frequented by an ugly fat kid whose goal in life is the demolition of all sandcastles built in the style you like.
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* However, they are also deeply spiritual people and much less materialistic than the Caldari.
The new demographics info suggests that most Caldari spend their extra cash on gambling not bobbles. Civre and Deties live a very spartan life, and are very un-materialistic. One should also not forget Wayism, the Maker, the Starsmith* etc. which suggest a deep vein of spirituality within them.
*The Starsmith may be another name for The Maker, and explain the heavy use of steel, stars and steel stars in Caldari iconography.
Also something to consider; Given the domination of key executive positions by Achur within SuVee does SuVee's Practical lean influence the Achur culture or has the Achur culture influenced SuVee's Practial lean :twisted:
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Hamish: true. I made that statement based on the old "thriving consumer culture" language in the Caldari racial desc, and before I read the demographics article.
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On further consideration, the article on Wayism seems to cast the faith as (1) not evangelical but (2) core to Caldari culture. Atheists are tolerated, but usually go through the motions anyway. Considering that the Achura and Intaki both form client communities within the State, it seems likely that they are considered more than welcome to continue practicing their faiths within those communities, but not outside.
Eeeeeh. This bit be ambiguous, folks.
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I think that the writing for WoW might be considered primae facie evidence that one shouldn't bother. :P
Anyway, it's unwise to build sandcastles on a beach frequented by an ugly fat kid whose goal in life is the demolition of all sandcastles built in the style you like.
Hey now - I'm not ashamed of getting into WoW's story when that game came out and I was still a dumb teen. And as bad as it might've been, they made it a hell of a lot worse as time went on. Especially for the half of the population that the developers outwardly called (and I believe I quote the lead writer here) "losers" by virtue of their faction.
My point is, if one wants to roleplay a member of an established group in-setting that maintains those connections, regardless of the size or nature of said group, it pays to adopt a somewhat less invested attitude. As developers are rather prone to force heavy, sometimes-unpleasant changes upon you at a whim.
Also something to consider; Given the domination of key executive positions by Achur within SuVee does SuVee's Practical lean influence the Achur culture or has the Achur culture influenced SuVee's Practial lean :twisted:
Ahh - This I can clarify. It's actually established in the SuVee article. (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sukuuvestaa_Corporation)
Since resettling in the Achura home system of Saisio after the evacuation of Caldari Prime, the corporation has become the sentimental favorite of the Achura population for both employment and purchasing decisions. Many of the corporation's high level positions are filled by Achura, and images from Achura culture are often used for corporate products. However, corporate philosophy is still dominated by SuVee traditions that date back to its origins on Caldari Prime, not Achura culture.
Not our fault!
About Caldari "Materialism", does the stuff about gambling really suggest that as a universal truth? I find it a bit odd that a society so based around, when you get past all the honor/loyalty/unity stuff, making lots of money would have no decadance on the fringes whatsoever.
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My feelings are that when the Achur were introduced the intent was that they weren't especially oppressed and anyone claiming they were had zero support from PF. However, the new crowd at the reigns in Iceland has other ideas.
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Since resettling in the Achura home system of Saisio after the evacuation of Caldari Prime, the corporation has become the sentimental favorite of the Achura population for both employment and purchasing decisions. Many of the corporation's high level positions are filled by Achura, and images from Achura culture are often used for corporate products. However, corporate philosophy is still dominated by SuVee traditions that date back to its origins on Caldari Prime, not Achura culture.
Ha! I've raised this point many times in Achur threads over the last several years and I wonder if that bit was added to kill that line of deduction by Verone.
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Judging by the edit history indicating it was put up in late 2011, I would personally guess no.
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SuVee's control over the media is a logical explanation for a lack of information on Achur dissent. However, it's possible there are other reason or even other reason in combination with media control.
Is it possible that since the Caldari don't actually do much on planets that they've left Saiso untouched outside of concentrated zones? Or alternatively, why would SuVee pick Saiso as their HQ? Perhaps the reason is because the newly formed mega had some homeless Civire and Deties freshly evicted from Caldari Prime and the Achur had a nice lush, fertile planet with warm breezes and tasty songbirds to live on. Could it be that they didn't want to turn their new secret paradise into a strip mine or industrial waste zone when they could strip mine the barren world next door for all the minerals they need and easily do all the industry in orbit? Why muck up your new home if you don't have to?
Zero-G Research Firm is a small research firm that specializes in space habitats and other life support modules for humans. In its heyday Zero-G was hailed as the great hope of the Caldari people
That suggest that places with breathable air were of immense value to the Caldari at one point and I can see SuVee hording a paradise world like a precious gem. This could explain why:
The Achura only become recognized and known to the rest of the cluster during the capsuleer era
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Considering that the total combined population of Civire and Deties cluster wide right after the exodus was probably only in the tens of millions and SuVee's relatively tiny size when compared to the other mega's could mean that SuVee only had a couple of million (if even that many) non-achurians to house. They would have had to spread that already thin population among other worlds as well as several space stations, meaning that the new arrivals, who were likely housed in newly built cities or even a single city, probably had little impact on the planet as a whole.
For comparison the island of Manhattan is only 23 square miles and has a population of 1.6 Million people.
TLDR: During the founding of the State, minerals were abundant while tropical beaches were priceless. The Caldari probably chose to preserve them.
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Unsure if it's retconned or not but it used ot be that Saisio was ravaged by SuVee in tried and true neotokyo dystopia manner. This could have been changed ofc.
I imagine the the need for hedonistic enjoyment would have been viewed as a gallente trait and eschewed while running for your lives to rebuild your society, however amassing massive fortune to build a nation and ascertaining SuVee as one of the cornerstones of this fledgling nation as both political and military power. In that race to build societal infrastructure, well oiled warmachine and civilian industry the need or attention for recreational endeavours would fall short in the stereotypical "duty, loyalty, honor" trinity.
That's jsut my 0.02isk.
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I think it might be putting a particularly Gallentean-flavored gloss on things if we interpret this data to show that the Achura are oppressed.
* The SuVee takeover was a pretty straight-up uplift with a side-order of cultural assimilation arguably necessary for going straight from pre-industrial to post-warp drive. There's no indication that the process was violent or even particularly unwelcome; the Caldari threw their weight around a bit, but that was pretty much inevitable.
* The Caldari appear to recognize the Achur faith as close kin to Wayism. They've had three centuries of apparently unchallenged control to annihilate the indigenous Achur culture if they so desired. Implication: they do not so desire. Indeed, SuVee seems to enjoy living with such interesting neighbors and uses Achur cultural symbols in its marketing even if it, itself, is culturally Caldari. Achur sentiment re: SuVee, at least among the acculturated, bespeaks gratitude (of course, they're also heavily indoctrinated).
* The Caldari really hate the idea of being culturally influenced from outside (and traditional Achur culture is not wholly compatible with cutthroat megacorporate culture-- it's less about competition and more about understanding). The Achura are welcome to practice their own traditional culture and even exercise what seems to be a high degree of autonomy so long as they do it at home; entering the State proper comes at the cost of integration. The Achura are not cut off from interstellar contact; they're just not an interstellar power (and show minimal interest in becoming one).
It's not exactly apartheid South Africa, here, folks, even if there does seem to be more than a whiff of that about the relationship. The cultural groups are separate (and inherently unequal), but it doesn't seem like the Caldari are either trying to "civilize" the Achura or even holding themselves to be inherently superior. However, elements of both probably creep in.
Results probably vary, depending (for obvious example) on whether a traditional Achur is dealing with an integrated Achur who has relatives living in a monastic communities, a Civire who has several ethnic Achur dormatory-mates and is researching Achur symbolism to incorporate into a new SuVee advertising campaign, or a Templis Dragonaur who thinks that the whole "client people" thing was a big mistake and Achura as both ethnicity and culture should be treated as non-entities.
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I'll try to give a care here.
I'd point out that the Caldari are very inconsistent on what they don't like. To me, this points to the Caldari as a culture that isn't xenophobic in the sense that we might call it, but rather has adopted a sort of willful xenophobia. What the Caldari appear to hate is being forced to adopt anything that they, collectively, dislike. So, for example, the Caldari loved the corporate idea, loved the idea of space flight, etc etc, but when the Gallente tried to pressure the Caldari into adopting other (possibly beneficial) ideas, the Caldari went nuts. Think of Caldari culture as a sort of water that may dissolve things into it, but turns to ice if something is imposed from without.
This would explain how the Caldari could enjoy Achuran traditions or allow Achuran and Intaki religions within the State: they aren't perceived as outside "impositions". In this sense, then, Caldari xenophobia would be largely a function of perceived coercion - i.e., the more you try to make me do something, the less I'm going to do it. So, when Suvee sets down on Saisio, the reaction might well have been not "obviously these people are inferior to our great Caldari culture", but simply "what can we get out of this?".
As such, to a certain extent, it might be quite possible for you to practice any religion you want in the State, so long as you do not actually try to proselytize.
I only use this idea as a different point of view, and probably not in line with PF, and certainly won't be in line with future PF, where I expect to see the Caldari herding Achurans into death camps.
And, derp, just read Jenneth's post. I suppose this was basically a pointless post. :-P
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I would say I generally agree with you but would point out it does not even have to be about Caldari/Achur culture clash specifically. There was bound to be upheaval of all sorts just from the sudden advance in technology as an example. There is always going to be someone who loses out, and it is plausible that their descendants would hold a grudge. Whether truly justified or not.
I guess I just think there is room in the PF for it.
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Souchek:
I'm not saying otherwise, though a person with such motives would probably be well-advised to keep them hidden, even from rural traditionalists. Destabilization of the status quo can only end badly for the remaining traditional Achura.
Vikarion:
Heh. Sorry about that.
I actually think that the current PF is headed away from Provist control rather than into increasingly crazy depths. This bit we just looked over actually does an excellent job of "threading the needle" of existing PF. It caught us off guard in a couple specific ways: the traditional Achura are simultaneously weaker, fewer, and more autonomous than we understood. They're also more closely associated with the Achur capsuleer-- a primary source, not a rare "exotic" background.
Interesting stuff.
I don't think CCP is likely to do anything that would take Achura off the menu as capsuleers, such as rendering them a truly repressed minority, any more than it's going to mess up Gallente character creation by having Intaki actually secede from the Federation. They might surprise me, and I kind of hope they do, but they're not going to do it like this.
The pattern of current PF is to make the Caldari more distinct to strengthen and flesh out the existing cultural traits, not to vilify the whole culture. It makes them less "good," if "good" means Gallente, but it also makes them more vivid and interesting-- without making them any less human.
For my part, I quite like it: new information, new twists, and tired old arguments are all of a sudden fresh and crisp again.
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I referenced this briefly earlier, but I was looking over the article again this morning, and I feel it's worth a direct mention since this thread has essentially become a discussion of all things Achur related.
They, as it turns out, are also a notable minority in the Federation - Despite never having been a member. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Gallente_Federation#Achura
Funnily enough, it sounds like there are a lot more traditionalist/"Rural" Achur spread out over the Federation outside of their homeworld then the State, which I suppose makes sense, considering the lack of a demand for cultural conformity. (Although I wouldn't be too hasty to shower them with praise, considering the mention of mingling with Intaki culture. The "Old Ways" are probably getting a slow but stiff boiling in a melting pot.) It's kind of funny that their relationship with the wider Federation is basically exactly the same as the one they hold with the wider State, working quietly and apolitically as teachers and scientists and so fourth.
Also, as I said earlier, this sort of implies that there were at least some Achura who retained their original culture and faith - And therefore probably came directly from Saisio and weren't Caldari citizens - Who basically ditched the State wholesale at some point or another. I wonder what reasons they might've had...? Considering the established seclusionism and profound attachment to their homeworld, it must have taken some pretty major disillusionment for them to up and hop the border to their overseers worst enemy.
Or perhaps they simply recognize it's the only way to get offworld without submitting to Caldarification?
"Smallest major bloodline" is a neat tidbit, too.
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There is certainly plenty of room for that, but just because they've moved to the Federation doesn't necessitate them having negative feelings with the State either. Being scientist, thinker, teacher philosopher types might motivate some to simply go walk among the Stars and see whats to be seen with no political motivations at all. If they are generally apolitical then why let a little something like a war stop them from going out to observe a new culture?
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They, as it turns out, are also a notable minority in the Federation - Despite never having been a member. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Gallente_Federation#Achura
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4451.msg70232#msg70232
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It does not surprise me to see a lot of Achura in the Federation too. "Petty political conflicts" and borders are less significant for their relaxed and spiritual way of life. They do not seem to care a lot for materialism and I think that most Achura actually being Caldari and part of the State are the leaders or the more involved kind of Achura. That's also probably why the Achura are usually considered part of the Caldari.
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The blurb about the Achur in the Federation demographics is quite brilliant actually. It says nothing more than there are Achur living happy and well within the Federation and gives no reason for the why. I think the intent was to give a sandbox tool that sets a preccident for players behind an Achurian character who want to either work out of Federation space or have a cback story tied to the Federation. The tool is equally usable by a player who's character is Anti-Caldari, Pro-Caldari or neutral. Elegant.
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Agreed.
Now about this whole "ruined biosphere" etc., etc. that I keep hearing about. Is that just people extrapolating based on SuVee's arrival on Achura, then repeating it because they've seen it used before? Or is that actually canon or quasi-canon from someplace?
It doesn't seem like it matches up with the story the Demographics article tells very well-- that rural Achura was mostly left alone except for a couple of mining sites, and plays into Gallentean presumptions WAY too well for me to trust it.
(As an aside: the Way of the Winds is very nature spirit-oriented, in fairly Shinto style. I have a little difficulty seeing the Caldari, corporate or not, as New Eden's swarm of locusts.)
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Take it with a grain of salt, but if I recall a conversation in OOC properly, the thing about Saisio's (I'm just going to call it Saisio, even if it's wrong, since calling the planet "Achura" is getting hella confusing) ecology getting messed up by the Caldari is from the old Rod of the Creator mission. ...Which has since been removed, or atleast reworked, like For The Birds was, to no longer feature that bit of lore. (The Rod and theft is absolutely still canon regardless, though, since it's mentioned on the page for the Bloodline on the wiki.)
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Well, at least CCP seems to be in the process of making a sort of "canon bible" out of the Evelopedia. Still, that source makes me a bit more sympathetic to the argument, even if it's now discussing some parallel universe.
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[..]there were at least some Achura who retained their original culture and faith - And therefore probably came directly from Saisio and weren't Caldari citizens
Another possibility: sometimes the second and succeeding generation of immigrant progeny returns to the fundaments of their parents' culture, sometimes to the extreme.
This is in part caused by how they are viewed/treated by the dominant culture, and they decide "If I'm viewed/treated as a *, I might as well act like one."
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All right: new issue.
The traditional Achura are a "client people" of the Caldari. We need a Napanni form of address for this, whether specific to the Achura or not; neither "-jaijji" nor "-haan" applies, since they're neither full citizens nor complete outsiders.
If it's specific to the client, I'd think that the client people's name or a derivative thereof is appropriate; "-achur" or "-intak" come to mind (bearing in mind that State-resident Intaki are also considered a client people if they do not wish to integrate), though we could vary these (-achura / -achuri / -achuro / achurwhatever; -inaki / -intaka / intaku, etc.).
Who's responsible for keeping the Napanni database, anyway?
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All right: new issue.
The traditional Achura are a "client people" of the Caldari. We need a Napanni form of address for this, whether specific to the Achura or not; neither "-jaijji" nor "-haan" applies, since they're neither full citizens nor complete outsiders.
If it's specific to the client, I'd think that the client people's name or a derivative thereof is appropriate; "-achur" or "-intak" come to mind (bearing in mind that State-resident Intaki are also considered a client people if they do not wish to integrate), though we could vary these (-achura / -achuri / -achuro / achurwhatever; -inaki / -intaka / intaku, etc.).
Who's responsible for keeping the Napanni database, anyway?
I don't support this.
I feel this may complicate things a bit too much and introduce too much ethnic conflict where there is not supposed to be much. Assuming you mean differentiating between "integrated" Achur and "traditional" Achura... how are we to know the difference? Many Achuran characters would take direct offense to being excluded from the -haan term simply on a racial basis.
While racial issues are often a thing in the State, does PF support actual conflict between the Achur and Civire/Deteis? I thought it was assumed that because the Achur quietly and easily 'fit in', they are often simply regarded as a 'third race' of Caldari, instead of outsiders.
I suppose if this is to be a thing, it remain so based on megacorporate culture, not a widespread culture. Ishukone, for example, may be more than willing to name all Achuran State loyalists -haan, while Kaalakiota (under Heth) might not at all and simply regard them as little better than expats.
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I have a hard time believing the Caldari would enforce such a delineation. The Caldari have been in the position of being second-class citizens themselves (or at least, feeling like they were) and it seems hard to believe they'd codify that state, even if it existed (which frankly, I think is bullshit). I will point out that you guys are trying to glean an awful lot from a couple sentences in an article on demographics which has its own issues.
I have always seen the Achura as fully accepted in Caldari society, especially since Sukuuvestaa adopts their culture as a marketing tool at the very least. They may be a smaller percentage of the population, but anyone denying that they are Caldari would look ridiculous, especially considering a) their homeworld is right in the middle of Caldari space and b) they have been part of the State for almost as long as the State (or whatever it was before the State) has existed.
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I don't support this.
I feel this may complicate things a bit too much and introduce too much ethnic conflict where there is not supposed to be much. Assuming you mean differentiating between "integrated" Achur and "traditional" Achura... how are we to know the difference? Many Achuran characters would take direct offense to being excluded from the -haan term simply on a racial basis.
Ms. Oniseki and Ms. Scarlet, this isn't my idea.
While racial issues are often a thing in the State, does PF support actual conflict between the Achur and Civire/Deteis? I thought it was assumed that because the Achur quietly and easily 'fit in', they are often simply regarded as a 'third race' of Caldari, instead of outsiders.
That's now been clarified. The Achura are considered full Caldari if they adopt the Caldari culture wholesale-- which most do. However, Achur capsuleers, it turns out, tend to be rural Achura, a client people of the Caldari who live mostly in a collection of rural monasteries on their homeworld ruled by the Elder Visionaries.
I suppose if this is to be a thing, it remain so based on megacorporate culture, not a widespread culture. Ishukone, for example, may be more than willing to name all Achuran State loyalists -haan, while Kaalakiota (under Heth) might not at all and simply regard them as little better than expats.
The issue here is more in the fact that Achur capsuleers tend to be traditional Achura. They integrate with the Caldari long enough to become capsuleers, or, perhaps, clone soldiers; some remain culturally Caldari, but some revert. The title distinction is important partly for background, but also because there are some (Gwen Ikiryo and Yun Hee Ryeon, to name two) who self-identify as culturally Achura and openly practice their own distinct faith and culture.
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<removed after reading Aria's post>
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I've read the rest of the topic...I think it's bullshit. :P It certainly isn't unprecedented for me to think PF is bullshit. :P
I do think you may be reading an awful lot into a few lines like that though.
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~neat stuff~
So, how should I as a Caldari player go about determining who to address by this new format? Just ask OOC or IC?
"Should I call you -haani or -achuri?"
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It sounds reasonable to me.
Rural achuras vs Urban achuras.
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Seems a bit naive to think that the Caldari, as a highly xenophobic and conformist culture, would be incapable of racism within their own borders, especially when one considers the visual distinctiveness of the Achur. Individual Gallente are perpetrators of ethnic discrimination and racism despite being in the supposed land of liberty and equality of New Eden. Minmatar do it against members of their own race who follow the Amarr faith despite having a strong sense of kinship. And then there are the Amarr. Racism is prevalent across all human cultures. To assume the Caldari are different seems a bit special snowflake to me.
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Svetlana:
You do have something of a history of disapproving of developing PF that disagrees with your existing assumptions.
I prefer the reed's approach to that of the oak. It prevents my character histories from snapping outright. I also have a long history of extrapolating wildly from limited information-- as I must, considering that limited information is all we have.
Sometimes I'm right. This time, I wasn't-- but upon reflection I like CCP's approach better. It's never been quite clear how the Achura could, for example, be part of the (corporate) State and yet have their own national leaders.
Katrina:
Well, considering that Achur capsuleers must at some point have fully integrated to achieve that status (and I assume the same is true of clone soldiers), "-haan" seems like an assumption that all but the most cautious Caldari would likely make. While the PF strongly suggests that many revert, the number who have verifiably done so IC can be counted on two hands.
Once we have a good title, we're likely to just politely correct you; after all, calling us "-haan" isn't insulting (unless you're talking to an Achur malcontent, of which I think we presently have just one), just inaccurate.
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Seems a bit naive to think that the Caldari, as a highly xenophobic and conformist culture, would be incapable of racism within their own borders, especially when one considers the visual distinctiveness of the Achur. Individual Gallente are perpetrators of ethnic discrimination and racism despite being in the supposed land of liberty and equality of New Eden. Minmatar do it against members of their own race who follow the Amarr faith despite having a strong sense of kinship. And then there are the Amarr. Racism is prevalent across all human cultures. To assume the Caldari are different seems a bit special snowflake to me.
Nobody is suggesting they are incapable of it. We're suggesting they may not be practicing it on an institutionalized scale. There's a pretty massive difference there.
I'd also like to warn against labeling different interpretations of PF "special snowflake" or "naive", especially prematurely.
EDIT: Oh, and... the Caldari are explicitly stated to be not xenophobic. Please don't say they are.
"Although not xenophobic as such, the Caldari are very protective of their way of life and tolerate only those foreigners that stick to the rules."
I encourage you to read the Caldari description again.
Katrina:
Well, considering that Achur capsuleers must at some point have fully integrated to achieve that status (and I assume the same is true of clone soldiers), "-haan" seems like an assumption that all but the most cautious Caldari would likely make. While the PF strongly suggests that many revert, the number who have verifiably done so IC can be counted on two hands.
Once we have a good title, we're likely to just politely correct you; after all, calling us "-haan" isn't insulting (unless you're talking to an Achur malcontent, of which I think we presently have just one), just inaccurate.
So just wait to be corrected? Sounds good to me. As for your original assertion, I could say I agree with parts of it now. Sounds good to me, as long as it is more of an outlier thing mostly unique to capsuleers. Capsuleers are a bit crazy anyways.
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We're suggesting they may not be practicing [racism] on an institutionalized scale.
There's actually one, I think, specifically racist organization in Caldari society: the Templis Dragonaurs, who bombed Nouvelle Rouvenor, who started a revolt to try and expel the Intaki from the State (resulting in the creation of Mordu's Legion) ... and who apparently can claim State Executor Tibus Heth as a (secret) member in good standing.
There are indications that some Caldari who are ethnic Achura have suffered attacks from them since the State started getting prickly about foreigners (about the time Tibus Heth started expelling Gallente, by some odd coincidence). The PF doesn't indicate that the phenomenon was widespread, though, IIRC, and I'm inclined to blame the Dragonaurs and their sympathizers.
There are undertones of racism in the State, but usually those seem to remain exactly that.
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I will point out that the Caldari became racist nutballs about the same time they also became horrible slave masters who forced their entire population to work in misery factories. I treat both ideas with equal contempt, quite frankly. The Dragonaurs were wanted by both the Federation and the State prior to Heth's magical mystery tour.
I am not saying there is no bias against Achura in the State now (the Suvee article makes it clear that they are not really very common among the higher ranks of their organization), but I do not think it is institutionalized -- I think the problem is more than it has been harder for the Achura to work their way into the old boys' network rather than that they are enshrined as second-class citizens according to any sort of law. Especially since the concept of a "client state" makes no sense from everything else we've been told about the Caldari government.
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I will point out that the Caldari became racist nutballs about the same time they also became horrible slave masters who forced their entire population to work in misery factories. I treat both ideas with equal contempt, quite frankly. The Dragonaurs were wanted by both the Federation and the State prior to Heth's magical mystery tour.
I am not saying there is no bias against Achura in the State now (the Suvee article makes it clear that they are not really very common among the higher ranks of their organization), but I do not think it is institutionalized -- I think the problem is more than it has been harder for the Achura to work their way into the old boys' network rather than that they are enshrined as second-class citizens according to any sort of law. Especially since the concept of a "client state" makes no sense from everything else we've been told about the Caldari government.
On the contrary, client states make ample sense.
The Caldari are cultural conformists who strongly disapprove of foreigners who do not conform to their society. We knew this.
They are also friendly to the Achura. We knew this as well.
The Achura had/have their own society and culture. We knew this too.
Furthermore, the Achura have their own governing structure that is friendly with, but distinct from, the Caldari governing structure. This bit is about as old as the bloodline.
Upon reflection, that either screams "exception to the rule," which means the Achura are so close to the Caldari culture that the Caldari don't recognize them as being meaningfully distinct despite the several glaring differences (Achur spirituality, intellectualism, anti-materialism, separate government) ...
... or it screams "special relationship," with the Achura as sovereign clients of a larger power, a bit like Native American tribes are clients of the United States government.
It seems apparent to me which is more probable-- AND backed in the PF, Svetlana. This isn't Tony G stuff, here.
Your contempt for that which does not conform to your preexisting notions of what the Caldari are or should be does not change the PF, nor is it useful for interpreting it. Please excuse me if I do not take it very much into account.
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All right: new issue.
The traditional Achura are a "client people" of the Caldari. We need a Napanni form of address for this, whether specific to the Achura or not; neither "-jaijji" nor "-haan" applies, since they're neither full citizens nor complete outsiders.
If it's specific to the client, I'd think that the client people's name or a derivative thereof is appropriate; "-achur" or "-intak" come to mind (bearing in mind that State-resident Intaki are also considered a client people if they do not wish to integrate), though we could vary these (-achura / -achuri / -achuro / achurwhatever; -inaki / -intaka / intaku, etc.).
Who's responsible for keeping the Napanni database, anyway?
Well, it shouldn't be Napanii in first place, but rather Achura language, that contains this "-achur" suffix. Because in Napanii this "-haan", that designates citizenship, means "comrade", like in USSR they would call you "Comrade Jenneth", Caldari would call you "Jenneth-haani". And I tend to use "-haan(i)" suffix for those, whom I believe know Napanii, where they are actual citizens or not, where for Amarr, for example, I prefer to use "Lord/Lady", and for minmatar/gallentean (and rarely for caldari/amarr) Mr./Ms.
(One time I thought about adressing peoples with "Comrade" prefix, but decided to better not, because it will creep peoples away :lol: and mark me with something like "communist" rather than Caldari)
Usage, for example "Ryeon-achur" instead of "Ryeon-haani" I would find as discriminative from Caldari point of view, if you speak it in Napanii. On the other hand, if it is not Napanii, but Achuran language, you will show respect, by adressing character with her native language. (What does it mean in Achuran language, btw? "people?")
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Well, it shouldn't be Napanii in first place, but rather Achura language, that contains this "-achur" suffix. Because in Napanii this "-haan", that designates citizenship, means "comrade", like in USSR they would call you "Comrade Jenneth", Caldari would call you "Jenneth-haani". And I tend to use "-haan(i)" suffix for those, whom I believe know Napanii, where they are actual citizens or not, where for Amarr, for example, I prefer to use "Lord/Lady", and for minmatar/gallentean (and rarely for caldari/amarr) Mr./Ms.
(One time I thought about adressing peoples with "Comrade" prefix, but decided to better not, because it will creep peoples away :lol: and mark me with something like "communist" rather than Caldari)
Usage, for example "Ryeon-achur" instead of "Ryeon-haani" I would find as discriminative from Caldari point of view, if you speak it in Napanii. On the other hand, if it is not Napanii, but Achuran language, you will show respect, by adressing character with her native language. (What does it mean in Achuran language, btw? "people?")
Hm. I did actually consider this, but it seems as though the word, "Achura," is itself Achur in origin, which might partly explain the blasted difficulty in working out proper usage (grrr). If you read the character creation background text, the only place the word "Achura" comes up is the bloodline name-- it's "Achur" as plural noun, singular noun, and adjective. When it's actually proper to use the word "Achura" boggles the hell out of me; I wing it.
Note that the Achura call their homeworld "Achura." The Caldari know it as Saisio III. So the "-achur" suffix would be Achur in origin; a non-adoptive Napanii equivalent might be "-saisi," after the system name.
Edit:
Also, I have no idea what "Achura" means to the Achura. "The people" would be typical, but the fact that the planet shares the name suggests that it's closer to "Earthling" or "Terran."
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I will point out that the Caldari became racist nutballs about the same time they also became horrible slave masters who forced their entire population to work in misery factories. I treat both ideas with equal contempt, quite frankly. The Dragonaurs were wanted by both the Federation and the State prior to Heth's magical mystery tour.
I am not saying there is no bias against Achura in the State now (the Suvee article makes it clear that they are not really very common among the higher ranks of their organization), but I do not think it is institutionalized -- I think the problem is more than it has been harder for the Achura to work their way into the old boys' network rather than that they are enshrined as second-class citizens according to any sort of law. Especially since the concept of a "client state" makes no sense from everything else we've been told about the Caldari government.
I usually reason among the lines of "one cannot have one's cake and eat it". Every faction has its grimdark sides, and systematically denying them because they do not fit to the ideal they strive for...
Not saying that Heth was a good thing though. I am merely referring to their society, even pre Heth.
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I have never said the Caldari don't have their dark side. I just don't think that happens to be it.
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Well, it shouldn't be Napanii in first place, but rather Achura language, that contains this "-achur" suffix. Because in Napanii this "-haan", that designates citizenship, means "comrade", like in USSR they would call you "Comrade Jenneth", Caldari would call you "Jenneth-haani". And I tend to use "-haan(i)" suffix for those, whom I believe know Napanii, where they are actual citizens or not, where for Amarr, for example, I prefer to use "Lord/Lady", and for minmatar/gallentean (and rarely for caldari/amarr) Mr./Ms.
(One time I thought about adressing peoples with "Comrade" prefix, but decided to better not, because it will creep peoples away :lol: and mark me with something like "communist" rather than Caldari)
Usage, for example "Ryeon-achur" instead of "Ryeon-haani" I would find as discriminative from Caldari point of view, if you speak it in Napanii. On the other hand, if it is not Napanii, but Achuran language, you will show respect, by adressing character with her native language. (What does it mean in Achuran language, btw? "people?")
Hm. I did actually consider this, but it seems as though the word, "Achura," is itself Achur in origin, which might partly explain the blasted difficulty in working out proper usage (grrr). If you read the character creation background text, the only place the word "Achura" comes up is the bloodline name-- it's "Achur" as plural noun, singular noun, and adjective. When it's actually proper to use the word "Achura" boggles the hell out of me; I wing it.
Note that the Achura call their homeworld "Achura." The Caldari know it as Saisio III. So the "-achur" suffix would be Achur in origin; a non-adoptive Napanii equivalent might be "-saisi," after the system name.
Edit:
Also, I have no idea what "Achura" means to the Achura. "The people" would be typical, but the fact that the planet shares the name suggests that it's closer to "Earthling" or "Terran."
Well, I would find "Earthling Jenneth" creepy as hell :P
Usual honorifics most of the time are versions of the word "master" and show your submission to authority or rank of the person you addressing. The variation of "comrade" is a way to show respect, while stating that all peoples are equal.
I think there should be another word for showing respect between Achura, than stating what planet they came from :roll:
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Aria, do you know the exact wording from the bloodline about the separate Achura government? I certainly don't remember reading anything like that.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicizat
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It's in the "Celestial Imperative" stuff in the Evelopedia, Svetlana. The Achur government is investigating raids on several monasteries, and doesn't trust the State to handle the investigation properly. CCP seems to have ripped out the storyline's intestines but left the skeleton. This is also the earliest canonical reference to the Elder Visionaries.
Edit:
There are also occasional references to Achur / Caldari relations being "a thing" as opposed to a non-issue, mostly surrounding the "white song." I believe there was at least one news article, a mission, and a reference in "Jita 4-4" that really threw me because it referred to munching (lunching, to be more exact) on a bird sacred to the Achura as the politically correct thing to do.
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Well, I would find "Earthling Jenneth" creepy as hell :P
Usual honorifics most of the time are versions of the word "master" and show your submission to authority or rank of the person you addressing. The variation of "comrade" is a way to show respect, while stating that all peoples are equal.
I think there should be another word for showing respect between Achura, than stating what planet they came from :roll:
Actually, this is a minor issue I have with Napanii as it currently exists. The Caldari aren't about egalitarianism in any form; they're about hierarchy, ideally meritocratic. Their "castes" may be somewhat loose, but they are definitely hierarchical.
But, let's say for the moment that the Caldari all refer to each other by the titles "-haan" or, in places, "-haani" for women, unless a person has gone and done something to earn a different title (-suuolo, -guri, -hnolku, etc.). That seems to be accepted practice, so let's accept it and go from there.
Is an ethnic Achur who is culturally Caldari a full Caldari citizen? Absolutely, so "-haan" it is.
Is an ethnic Achur who is culturally Achura a full Caldari citizen? Absolutely not. Such a person may be "equal" by some standard and has some legal status, but does not have the same privileges (cannot, for example, live in a Caldari community), cannot claim corporate citizenship under any corporation, and is certainly not "one of us."
That's not necessarily a very negative or, if it is, a very permanent judgment-- a cultural Achur is Achur by choice, and can choose to adopt Caldari ways and culture and become fully Caldari. Every single Achur capsuleer either started out culturally Caldari (rare) or has, at some point, done so. However, it's not a quality that grants equal status within the society; I'd compare it more to being a member of a protected species that can render itself fully human ("one of us") with appropriate effort.
That being the case, I'd say the use of a title denoting nation/planet of origin is practical and reasonable, considering that the Achura occupy a domain that is neither Caldari nor outsider nor non-entity. It's like calling the residents of the Intaki system Intaki or the people of Gallente Prime, Gallente.
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Well, I would find "Earthling Jenneth" creepy as hell :P
Usual honorifics most of the time are versions of the word "master" and show your submission to authority or rank of the person you addressing. The variation of "comrade" is a way to show respect, while stating that all peoples are equal.
I think there should be another word for showing respect between Achura, than stating what planet they came from :roll:
Actually, this is a minor issue I have with Napanii as it currently exists. The Caldari aren't about egalitarianism in any form; they're about hierarchy, ideally meritocratic. Their "castes" may be somewhat loose, but they are definitely hierarchical.
But, let's say for the moment that the Caldari all refer to each other by the titles "-haan" or, in places, "-haani" for women, unless a person has gone and done something to earn a different title (-suuolo, -guri, -hnolku, etc.). That seems to be accepted practice, so let's accept it and go from there.
Is an ethnic Achur who is culturally Caldari a full Caldari citizen? Absolutely, so "-haan" it is.
Well, how I imagine this "egalitarianistic" behavior of Caldari - as a result of mixing of Deteis and Civire cultures into one. And when you say "haan(i)", you mean, that you treat the person as your friend, as one of your own people, even if said person is not. A Civire is a haan(i) to Deteis, just like a Deteis is a haan(i) to Deteis. And Deteis is a haan(i) to Civire, just like Civire is a haan(i) to Civire.
So, when a Deteis says "haan(i)" to Achura or any other ethnicity, Deteis means, that this Achura is a comrade, and should be treated as other Deteis, "you are like me, you are one of us, and we will show you respect as one of us".
Same way, "-jaijii" would mean "you are not one of us, and don't expect respect here".
Is an ethnic Achur who is culturally Achura a full Caldari citizen? Absolutely not. Such a person may be "equal" by some standard and has some legal status, but does not have the same privileges (cannot, for example, live in a Caldari community), cannot claim corporate citizenship under any corporation, and is certainly not "one of us."
From my point of view, polite Caldari should still call this Achura "haan(i)", if this Achura is welcomed, even if this person is not "one of us" culturally, but hasn't done anything disrespectful.
That's not necessarily a very negative or, if it is, a very permanent judgment-- a cultural Achur is Achur by choice, and can choose to adopt Caldari ways and culture and become fully Caldari. Every single Achur capsuleer either started out culturally Caldari (rare) or has, at some point, done so. However, it's not a quality that grants equal status within the society; I'd compare it more to being a member of a protected species that can render itself fully human ("one of us") with appropriate effort.
Well, Achur who is Achur by choice might prefer to be called with honorific, that other Achur use for each other. For example, if Ryeon-achur would prefer to be called this way, you will show respect by satisfying this request. But otherwise, I still think, that Caldari should call them still "haan(i)".
As for how one Achura should call another - I have no idea. "-achur" sounds for me a bit weird :P
That being the case, I'd say the use of a title denoting nation/planet of origin is practical and reasonable, considering that the Achura occupy a domain that is neither Caldari nor outsider nor non-entity. It's like calling the residents of the Intaki system Intaki or the people of Gallente Prime, Gallente.
Ugh. It sounds more like weird, creepy and disrespectful for me. Of course, we call Intaki those, who are from Intaki, Gallente, those who are from Gallente, say, like Americans who are from America, etc. As for me, it would be verrrryyy verrryyy creepy for me, if someone would use constantly "Earthling" as honorific while addressing to me. And for other countries, say, if american John Smith will visit United Kingdom and will be called "American Smith" instead of "Mr. Smith", I think it will be rather discriminative than respectful, because you will accent on Smith's difference from other peoples, telling him that he is not one of them.
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It's also worth noting that the Caldari do not consider cultural diversity a value -- conformity is the norm. At least some reason for the acceptance of the Achura as members of the State was because they were considered to be culturally very similar to the Caldari.
Personally, I suspect any such agreement as to the unique state of the Achura is due to an agreement with Sukuuvestaa only, and that the Caldari as a whole recognize Achura on Saisio III as Sukuuvestaa citizens (therefore addressing them in the same way as they would any Caldari), but that Sukuuvestaa may have some agreement with Achura leaders that grants them special privileges in return for allowing Sukuuvestaa significant control over much of the planet for their own purposes. In other words, Sukuuvestaa is considered to "own" Achura, but in order to not piss off the Achura population, it grants them significant latitude to conduct their own affairs. this could explain both the "client state" idea as well as fit it into the corporate sovereignty that defines Caldari government.
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So, when a Deteis says "haan(i)" to Achura or any other ethnicity, Deteis means, that this Achura is a comrade, and should be treated as other Deteis, "you are like me, you are one of us, and we will show you respect as one of us".
Same way, "-jaijii" would mean "you are not one of us, and don't expect respect here".
Agreed thus far.
From my point of view, polite Caldari should still call this Achura "haan(i)", if this Achura is welcomed, even if this person is not "one of us" culturally, but hasn't done anything disrespectful.
That might be a polite thing to do, but I'm not sure it would be the norm. The Achura, being culturally Achura rather than an ethnic Achur who is culturally Caldari, is definitionally not "one of us" and is either at home (in which case, the Caldari is the outsider) or is visiting-- and, because the Achura is not culturally Caldari, is therefore out of place. Remember that the Caldari do not welcome even client peoples to come and live among them; clients are expected to keep to themselves.
An Achur who is not presently doing so may be tolerated, but is not quite welcome.
"Ah, you are here for supplies, Cho-achurai? Excellent. Come have a look; I think you will be pleased-- and please stay for some refreshment before your journey home."
In this example, a Caldari (possibly even ethnic Achur) trader welcomes an Achur's business, but also recognizes (1) their difference in culture (through use of title) and (2) the expectation that the visitor will be returning a fair distance home once their business is concluded. This strikes me as a probably common exchange.
Well, Achur who is Achur by choice might prefer to be called with honorific, that other Achur use for each other. For example, if Ryeon-achur would prefer to be called this way, you will show respect by satisfying this request. But otherwise, I still think, that Caldari should call them still "haan(i)".
As for how one Achura should call another - I have no idea. "-achur" sounds for me a bit weird :P
I think you might be giving the Caldari a little too much credit for caring about other people's feelings. Remember, the non-integrated Achura have legal rights within the State only because they have client status; otherwise, they'd be nonentities, people who don't exist under Caldari law. It seems likely to me that most Caldari, including many integrated Achura, feel that the protections the rural Achura receive are pretty much all they're entitled to-- they're a protected people, and possibly sort of like poor cousins (the Achur faith is apparently recognized by followers of the Way as a different way of looking at the same truths), but outsiders just the same. Embracing Achur titles would be incorporating an aspect of their culture into the Caldari's own, which, aside from SuVee advertising campaigns, the Caldari seem in no hurry to do.
As an aside, the Achura seem to call themselves the Achura (as opposed to the Saisiovians or the Saisians or something). Probably, even calling them "Achura," thus using the Achur name for their own world, is a gesture of respect.
Ugh. It sounds more like weird, creepy and disrespectful for me. Of course, we call Intaki those, who are from Intaki, Gallente, those who are from Gallente, say, like Americans who are from America, etc. As for me, it would be verrrryyy verrryyy creepy for me, if someone would use constantly "Earthling" as honorific while addressing to me. And for other countries, say, if american John Smith will visit United Kingdom and will be called "American Smith" instead of "Mr. Smith", I think it will be rather discriminative than respectful, because you will accent on Smith's difference from other peoples, telling him that he is not one of them.
Agreed-- but these days those are liberal democracies you're describing. Their cultures tend individualist. To the Caldari, one's national origin is likely similar to a family name. One uses "-haan" to designate a family member and "-jaijji" to designate a stranger, but there must be a word for a sort of distant second cousin like the Achura or allied Intaki.
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As a little note, I use Napanii only on my Deteis. In some player fiction, it is an originally Deteis language. Therefore, my Civire will tend to avoid using them, replying with the -haan(i) honorific if addressed with the same.
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It's also worth noting that the Caldari do not consider cultural diversity a value -- conformity is the norm. At least some reason for the acceptance of the Achura as members of the State was because they were considered to be culturally very similar to the Caldari.
Personally, I suspect any such agreement as to the unique state of the Achura is due to an agreement with Sukuuvestaa only, and that the Caldari as a whole recognize Achura on Saisio III as Sukuuvestaa citizens (therefore addressing them in the same way as they would any Caldari), but that Sukuuvestaa may have some agreement with Achura leaders that grants them special privileges in return for allowing Sukuuvestaa significant control over much of the planet for their own purposes. In other words, Sukuuvestaa is considered to "own" Achura, but in order to not piss off the Achura population, it grants them significant latitude to conduct their own affairs. this could explain both the "client state" idea as well as fit it into the corporate sovereignty that defines Caldari government.
I can't check right now (Since the servers are dead) but I think it explictly says that "rural" Achura are not considered citizens/employees in any capacity. It makes it more sort of out to be a little political bubble with it's own laws, leaders, customs...
I'll be honest in that I don't really get the whole "Very similar culture" thing between the Achur and the State. The two seem like night and day. Where one values strength, pragmatism and loyalty to the whole, the other puts more stock in abstract qualities; Introspection, wisdom, etc.
As for the actual legal ownership of the planet outside of SuVee controlled zones, I have a feeling that would depend on whom one asks. I anticipate being effectively isolated from wider State society for centuries with very little apparant social change would make the populace more then then a little xenophobic.
On the word "Achura" itself - I can think of two possible ideas.
1: It's the name of the Empire that dominated the planet before the Caldari arrived that's already been discussed, and thus come to be associated with the entire ethnic group as a whole.
2: Since the Achura never had any reason to suspect people existed outside of their planet before the Caldari arrived (being pre-industrial and all) I wouldn't be surprised if it simply means "human". I mean, it doesn't seem paticularly likely that all the residents of a planet would refer to themselves by an all encompassing label other then that, even if they were united politically. More likely, they would refer to themselves by a regional or cultural identity.
The meaning, of course, would quickly become corrupted once SuVee arrived.
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From my point of view, polite Caldari should still call this Achura "haan(i)", if this Achura is welcomed, even if this person is not "one of us" culturally, but hasn't done anything disrespectful.
That might be a polite thing to do, but I'm not sure it would be the norm. The Achura, being culturally Achura rather than an ethnic Achur who is culturally Caldari, is definitionally not "one of us" and is either at home (in which case, the Caldari is the outsider) or is visiting-- and, because the Achura is not culturally Caldari, is therefore out of place. Remember that the Caldari do not welcome even client peoples to come and live among them; clients are expected to keep to themselves.
An Achur who is not presently doing so may be tolerated, but is not quite welcome.
"Ah, you are here for supplies, Cho-achurai? Excellent. Come have a look; I think you will be pleased-- and please stay for some refreshment before your journey home."
In this example, a Caldari (possibly even ethnic Achur) trader welcomes an Achur's business, but also recognizes (1) their difference in culture (through use of title) and (2) the expectation that the visitor will be returning a fair distance home once their business is concluded. This strikes me as a probably common exchange.
There is a complication: how one will distinguish "caldarianezed" from rural Achura? Accidentally calling State citizen "-achurai" might be considered as an obvious insult.
Well, Achur who is Achur by choice might prefer to be called with honorific, that other Achur use for each other. For example, if Ryeon-achur would prefer to be called this way, you will show respect by satisfying this request. But otherwise, I still think, that Caldari should call them still "haan(i)".
As for how one Achura should call another - I have no idea. "-achur" sounds for me a bit weird :P
I think you might be giving the Caldari a little too much credit for caring about other people's feelings. Remember, the non-integrated Achura have legal rights within the State only because they have client status; otherwise, they'd be nonentities, people who don't exist under Caldari law. It seems likely to me that most Caldari, including many integrated Achura, feel that the protections the rural Achura receive are pretty much all they're entitled to-- they're a protected people, and possibly sort of like poor cousins (the Achur faith is apparently recognized by followers of the Way as a different way of looking at the same truths), but outsiders just the same. Embracing Achur titles would be incorporating an aspect of their culture into the Caldari's own, which, aside from SuVee advertising campaigns, the Caldari seem in no hurry to do.
As an aside, the Achura seem to call themselves the Achura (as opposed to the Saisiovians or the Saisians or something). Probably, even calling them "Achura," thus using the Achur name for their own world, is a gesture of respect.
I think it is not like about feeling, but about honor and showing respects. Since, well, I say again, that "-haan(i)" is used by citizens to adress citizens, but has meaning of "comrade", and doesn't imply that you are an official citizens, or just a visiting friend. From my point of view, it is honorific title, not legal. And the meaning would be a Caldari adressing others as "Mr./Ms."
And, I think, since we don't have Achuran language (yet), we could just let one Achura to address another with these "Mr./Ms." prefixes, saying that our handwavium translators are doing all the job.
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Your contempt for that which does not conform to your preexisting notions of what the Caldari are or should be does not change the PF, nor is it useful for interpreting it. Please excuse me if I do not take it very much into account.
This is first time something on these boards has made me genuinely angry. Of all the participants of backstage Svetlana is probably one of the least likely to let 'pre-existing notions' color her perception of PF. She is known looking at things from all angles and make careful and articulated points. I feel that if someone as gifted as yourself were to re-read and reflect on the things Svetlana has contributed over the years that you'd see that.
Now, It seems to me that a few of you want a schism between the Achurians and the Civire and Deties and that's fine. There is room for it. Also I think there has been a small, but steadfast group of people who are interested in such things for many years now and that merits a bone or two from CCP to support them. In addition, Napanii is only quasi-cannon and thus in my opinion open to the whims of the greater RP community.
However, just because a few Achurian farm boys don't feel they fit in with the State doesn't mean the Civire and Deties are going to change their language to accomodate them. Why make the concession for someone determined to be an outsider especially when the purity of the language is of such dire importance to them? It's a ceremonial language not the common every day language and by adressing someone as with the -haan suffix you are ceremoniously acknowledging them as upstanding members of the State and an adherent to the Caldari culture.
I think what most haan would do in a situation were they are speaking to an Achurian who is in good standing with the State, obey's it laws, does not go out of their way to make a disruption but does not wish to be included as part of the Caldari would be to adress them by their official title. I believe they would be exceptionally formal, polite and subtle in their exclusion. I.E. 'Good evening CEO Jenneth,' 'Have a pleasant trip Captian Jenneth.'
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What Hamish said.
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Your contempt for that which does not conform to your preexisting notions of what the Caldari are or should be does not change the PF, nor is it useful for interpreting it. Please excuse me if I do not take it very much into account.
This is first time something on these boards has made me genuinely angry. Of all the participants of backstage Svetlana is probably one of the least likely to let 'pre-existing notions' color her perception of PF. She is known looking at things from all angles and make careful and articulated points. I feel that you if someone as gifted as yourself were to re-read and reflect on the things Svetlana has contributed over the years that you'd see that.
Hamish, let me be plain: I sympathize with Svetlana's frustration with a PF that's frankly near kaleidoscopic, and have for many years. I never liked Tibus Heth. I never liked the centralized, nigh-unchallengeable power, the dubious credentials, the multiple glaring exceptions to the normal Caldari approach to doing things. Perhaps something like him was necessary. Perhaps Hellgremlin is correct, and he was always going to be there, an unambiguous monster, a slightly toned-down Space Hitler that poor Tony G had to try and breathe life into.
Perhaps, as I tend to think, Tony G brought more of his own moral outlook into his writing than was appropriate, painting New Eden in broad strokes of melodrama, strokes that are only now beginning to fade.
Svetlana, from what I have seen, has continued to rail against these changes, becoming a quintessential bittervet on matters Caldari. In her own words:
I've read the rest of the topic...I think it's bullshit. It certainly isn't unprecedented for me to think PF is bullshit.
This is an approach that you ask me to treat respectfully.
It is in the nature of bittervets to be long-time players with, often, strong backgrounds. It is also often in their nature to be at least partly right.
That does not make their insights useful, sadly, as long as they function in that capacity.
As a worldbuilder, I deal in what is and try to make the best of it. If something changes, I adjust and adapt. Presently, I am trying to adjust and adapt to a set of data that Svetlana, rightly or wrongly, regards as "bullshit."
Discussions of what the PF should be, as opposed to what it is, are neither interesting nor useful to me. I therefore stand by my remarks-- though I note that her subsequent contributions have been excellent.
Now, It seems to me that a few of you want a schism between the Achurians and the Civire and Deties and that's fine. There is room for it. Also I think there has been a small, but steadfast group of people who are interested in such things for many years now and that merits a bone or two from CCP to support them. In addition, Napanii is only quasi-cannon and thus in my opinion open to the whims of the greater RP community.
Of the former group, I count two. I am not one.
As far as the latter, I agree, but we can proactively make modifications.
However, just because a few Achurian farm boys don't feel they fit in with the State doesn't mean the Civire and Deties are going to change their language to accomodate them. Why make the concession for someone determined to be an outsider especially when the purity of the language is of such dire importance to them? It's a ceremonial language not the common every day language and by adressing someone as with the -haan suffix you are ceremoniously acknowledging them as upstanding members of the State and an adherent to the Caldari culture.
That's actually my opinion precisely.
I'm not arguing for a change-- I'm arguing that this is how things always were, but that we need to introduce a modification to reflect the new PF-- a word for a middle ground between -haan and -jaijji. The State has client communities within it; how does it recognize them?
I think what most haan would do in a situation were they are speaking to an Achurian who is in good standing with the State, obey's it laws, does not go out of their way to make a disruption but does not wish to be included as part of the Caldari would be to adress them by their official title. I believe they would be exceptionally formal, polite and subtle in their exclusion. I.E. 'Good evening CEO Jenneth,' 'Have a pleasant trip Captian Jenneth.'
Could be.
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I will note that at least according to the bloodline description on Evelopedia (which I can now read) there is no hint whatsoever that the Achura are not considered equal to the Civire or Deteis, nor that they have any sort of Mennonite-like separation from the State.
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I will note that at least according to the bloodline description on Evelopedia (which I can now read) there is no hint whatsoever that the Achura are not considered equal to the Civire or Deteis, nor that they have any sort of Mennonite-like separation from the State.
I don't think anyone is citing stuff from the bloodline descriptions, here - Just the demographics article.
I think I might as well just quote the whole part in question.
The Achura are a client state of the Caldari. The vast majority of Achura can be found on their homeworld as corporate subjects of the Sukuuvestaa corporation. While there is an autonomous Achura government known as the Elder Visionaries, they mostly control the monasteries in the rural areas of the homeworld. The Elder Visionaries are as reclusive and introverted as an entity can be whilst still participating in cluster affairs, primarily in the areas of interstellar religion.
The Achura only become recognized and known to the rest of the cluster during the capsuleer era. Drawn to the philosophical implications of the hydrostatic capsule, many would seek to become pod pilots in large numbers. As the capsuleer training process is ostensibly Caldari in the State, their Achura identities and culture would be removed and replaced by the Caldari way. Because the wider Caldari put more emphasis on cultural compliance over ethnic origin, these encultured Achura are considered full citizens in equal standing. However, the independence granted to capsuleers means that many Achura after graduation choose to revert back to their original culture.
Emphasis mine.
- Client state implies a very clear submissive but seperate relationship to the Caldari.
- "Autonomous Achura government" further reinforces this idea, as well as establishing the fact that they are not - at least directly - Subject to Caldari corporate governance.
- The part about culture implies that until they take on the "Caldari Way", they are not considered full citizens.
It seems pretty unambiguous.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization
the achur are Chinese in culture so this applies to them
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I will note that at least according to the bloodline description on Evelopedia (which I can now read) there is no hint whatsoever that the Achura are not considered equal to the Civire or Deteis, nor that they have any sort of Mennonite-like separation from the State.
Yeah, I noticed that, too. Please, if you have any actual information suggesting that the State Demographics page should be considered quasi-canon, please let us know. Our PF isn't the only one that got a bombshell in that article. Did you notice the bit on Caldari marital customs-- to wit, how the Deteis are still the Deteis and Civire are still the Civire despite lots and lots of time spent living on the same homeworld?
I won't say it doesn't make sense, but exactly how is matching people of similar appearance not racist when the concept of race is based almost exclusively on appearance?! Particularly when "halfbloods" face systemic discrimination, apparently on account of a social taboo against miscegenation-by-another-name?
If this is true, I'm not frankly sure that the canonically "mistaken" belief that the Caldari are racists is wrong. It's just ... sort of worked around and mostly evaded by the fact that their version of apartheid is based on culture.
See? Plenty for everybody. I can see how it derives from the PF, and reenforces it, and gives us all kinds of juicy data to play with, but it does make me raise an eyebrow a little in that "couldn't you have made the Caldari a bit harder to demonize?" sort of way.
The reason this is such an especially big deal for Achur PF (and one reason why my extrapolations have to be based on a "few lines") is that hardly any Achur PF exists. Most of what we "knew," we made up based on educated guesses much like the ones I'm making here.
Some of what we had (SuVee essentially raping the planet) has apparently been long-since retconned (thank God).
Some has merely been skeletonized (the Celestial Imperative).
Some has all of a sudden, courtesy of the Demographics article, sprung into three dimensions in ways we didn't expect (the independent, isolated nature of the monasteries).
... And, some was REALLY out of a clear blue sky (the implication that all, or almost all, Achur capsuleers are of the rural variety-- none of their available backgrounds-- monk, stargazer, even inventor-- correspond to any aspect of mainstream Caldari society, if only because the inventor's approach to invention is highly spiritual and not in a Way of the Winds sort of way. All, however, would be welcome in the surviving, isolated, introverted, deeply-spiritual Achur culture).
This information dump patches a number of holes (why the hell did we scarcely merit a mention before now, and why did it keep sounding like we were a somehow separate entity like the Ammatar Mandate? Answer: we're very few, very isolated, very introverted, and very surprisingly independent), but opens several cans of worms that are now squirming all over creation. I've been trying to stuff a few back in, and please note that I've come to the conclusion that the Achura see themselves as beneficiaries at least as much as victims.
After all, they were pre-industrial when SuVee moved in, the Caldari mostly respect their rights and leave them alone, and, from the sounds of some of their antiques, they might not feel very much nostalgia for the war-torn past.
So, detante?
I'm not trying to pry anything apart; I'm just trying to get an accurate read on what we've been handed, and while I think some of it is troublesome (see above), I also think it's the best trove of cultural PF we've gotten on this bloodline, or the Caldari generally, in ages.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization
the achur are Chinese in culture so this applies to them
Interestingly, kul Shaishi, I think this is a pretty good example of what is mostly NOT happening ...
... outside of SuVee's marketing department.
Adoption of other people's cultural practices seems to be pretty much anathema to the Caldari. They are themselves. Themselves they shall remain, damn it, and damned also be he who attempts to bend the Deteis and Civire to ways that are not their own!
... So, not so much with the absorbing Achur culture, compatible or not.
Likewise, it doesn't look very much like the rural Achura have been swallowing very much of the Caldari culture, being as they're scarcely immersed in it. They've lived under Caldari kinda-sorta rule for around three hundred years and show no particular sign of becoming Caldari, themselves (beyond the huge numbers of ethnic Achura who culturally integrated into Caldari society centuries ago and almost certainly remain ethnically distinct on account of Caldari marriage practices). Nor do the Caldari show any particular interest in making them.
The Achura keep mostly to the countryside, the Caldari (regardless of ethnicity) keep mostly to the cities, and everybody mostly lives in their own way and minds their own business. "What's good for you is good for you; what's good for me is good for me" seems to be the rule of the day-- unless SuVee is looking for a new way to make its products seem a little exotic (while still wholly compatible with Caldari culture).
Possibly SuVee's received a little pushback over the years from Templis-minded persons who would prefer to keep even superficial influences from other cultures out, out, out. Meantime, though, they seem to kind of like having a rich source of exotic (and Way-compatible!) cultural imagery to draw on.
Other than the apparently intense interest by the Achura (on a per-capita basis) in capsule training, resulting in many an Achur would-be capsuleer "turning Caldari," at least for a while, that marketing stratagem seems to be most of the cultural influencing that's going on.
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If only the Ammatar Mandate was somehow a separate entity...
It's also worth noting that the Caldari do not consider cultural diversity a value -- conformity is the norm. At least some reason for the acceptance of the Achura as members of the State was because they were considered to be culturally very similar to the Caldari.
Personally, I suspect any such agreement as to the unique state of the Achura is due to an agreement with Sukuuvestaa only, and that the Caldari as a whole recognize Achura on Saisio III as Sukuuvestaa citizens (therefore addressing them in the same way as they would any Caldari), but that Sukuuvestaa may have some agreement with Achura leaders that grants them special privileges in return for allowing Sukuuvestaa significant control over much of the planet for their own purposes. In other words, Sukuuvestaa is considered to "own" Achura, but in order to not piss off the Achura population, it grants them significant latitude to conduct their own affairs. this could explain both the "client state" idea as well as fit it into the corporate sovereignty that defines Caldari government.
I can't check right now (Since the servers are dead) but I think it explictly says that "rural" Achura are not considered citizens/employees in any capacity. It makes it more sort of out to be a little political bubble with it's own laws, leaders, customs...
I'll be honest in that I don't really get the whole "Very similar culture" thing between the Achur and the State. The two seem like night and day. Where one values strength, pragmatism and loyalty to the whole, the other puts more stock in abstract qualities; Introspection, wisdom, etc.
As for the actual legal ownership of the planet outside of SuVee controlled zones, I have a feeling that would depend on whom one asks. I anticipate being effectively isolated from wider State society for centuries with very little apparant social change would make the populace more then then a little xenophobic.
Agreed.
Most of the "third" bloodlines that have been inserted by CCP in the game at some point - Achura, Khanid, Jin-Mei and Vherokior - have always been inserted more or less at different scales as the bad apples of their faction, the Vherokior excepted maybe (they are just... marginal at best). I mean, the Achura here, or the Jin-Mei values clashing with the ideals of the Federation, or even the Khanid with Khanid II vs the Empire...
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I anticipate being effectively isolated from wider State society for centuries with very little apparant social change would make the populace more then then a little xenophobic.
Hrm.
(Thanks, Lyn. I missed this.)
To a point, I agree-- many rural Achura are probably a bit twitchy about the very idea of outsiders dropping in for a visit. That said, it also seems like there's a good number of Achura travelling and living in the Federation, up to and including entire monasteries, so they can't be that nervous about outside contact.
It seems like Achur nervousness about outsiders would be balanced with Achur curiosity, which is a great tonic for xenophobia. It's harder to be ruled by fear when you badly want to learn.
I envision a random, say, Gallentean traveler (especially a teacher) in an Achur village as seeing hardly anyone on the way in, except for maybe knots of little gray, brown or black eyes peering from windows and doorways. After the traveler checks in at the local inn or whatever, and maybe has a pleasant (if somewhat probing) chat with the owner and a couple of the staff, this traveler notices a couple of the local residents talking to the innkeeper.
Within an hour and a half of this event, the traveler is absolutely surrounded by a throng of the local children, along with a fair few adults who were able to get away from their work, and is receiving an endless barrage of sometimes surprisingly well-thought-out questions.
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Well, been some more interesting discussion here. As one of the "two people who want a schism" I guess I should chime in here a little. My fiction for Souch and his larger ethnic slice of Achur was created without any of the demographics articles. They had not even been published in fact. All I had to go on were the bloodlines and Suuvee descriptions. When I first read the lore it just seemed like the most likely scenario.
It is hard for me to imagine a situation wherein there would not be at least some Achur feeling resentment towards the Caldari, not all of them, not even some fledgling independence movement, just people who think they are dicks and want more control over their lives. I also choose to believe that while the Achur may well have many societal characteristics, they are not somehow massively different from other human beings. For instance despite the whole Monk/Shinto whatever going on they quite obviously fought wars at some point and were very brutal about it. The point being people hold grudges, they pass these grudges down to their children and in fact if the consensus I think we have reached here is accurate and the Caldari were benevolent overlords than it would be even easier for malcontents to inherit their father's arguments.
Ultimately the whole "Achur Independence" thing has nothing to do with Souch and while I don't want to speak for her, probably Gwen as well. His beliefs on the topic could best be described as complex lol. The IGS post that started this attracted my attention solely because I thought it would be nice to point out not every Achur is just some carbon-copy stoic, quiet, well-mannered good citizen or whatever. Amusingly I actually play Souchek to many of those stereotypes. He is polite, rarely engages in any discussion he thinks is improper and largely eschews social interaction with people not connected to his corporation. That specific day I decided he opened the post because it was obviously talking about his people and became disgusted with what he would percieve as "arrogant typical Civre/Deitei assumptions". So he said some bitter, hurtfull shit because he was angry basically. As a side note I have pretty specific reasons for why he thinks the way he does about the Achur/State relationship and they have little to do with the history of the State and much to do with events in his life. I just do not feel like explaining everything about him when instead I can save it for meaningfull IC interaction at a later date.
As for the whole linguistics thing. Not terribly much I can add either way. I get around all of that and my terrible memory by just saying Souch hates Napanii and every thing he has ever said in-game is in Amarr/Amarrian/Amarrad/whatever the hell they speak. I just use occasionally modified Japanese for Chukukaigan dialect Achur and go with the WH40k explanation that no one is talking in any of the languages we use anyway so all this is just substitution.
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Souchek:
For the record, the other was Boma Airaken (who I don't think is still around, but he might be).
Also for the record, I'm not sure the Caldari have been exactly benevolent so much as they've refrained from being malevolent, which really is about as much as you can ask when a foreign power that's literally from another planet is uplifting your major urban areas. My suspicion is that, while the Caldari wanted a solid local work force without a pile of cultural crossover and wanted to nip any ideas of revolt in the bud, they also saw something of themselves in the Achura (their faiths, according to the Caldari, are compatible, after all-- different ways of believing much the same thing), and they remembered what it was like when the Gallentean Cultural Deliverance Society arrived on Caldari Prime.
To wit, massive uplift with massive cultural interference and massive humiliation on the side-- at least as the Caldari remember it.
At a guess, they probably weren't, and aren't, that keen to repeat history by becoming what they so despised.
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Ahh rgr, yeah back when I first started I had a little talk with Boma about all that. He was pretty bitter OOC about the whole thing it seemed. Kinda seemed to me like he pushed it a little to hard and maybe that informed where I was headed.
I totally tried to buy his last corpse of whoever had it, was going to make a little ancestor shrine for him and say Souch read his opinions in college. Sadly whoever it was that had it would not sell. They might not have realized just how much I would pay but such is life lol.
What I meant with the "benevolent overlord" comment was just that the more liberal and open their policy towards the Achur, the more likely discontents would have an opportunity to propagate their beliefs without getting hell stomped.
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Well, considering SuVee stance on most things, I suspect their goal would simply be to extract the most value for the least amount of work (and possible trouble). An armed occupation would be expensive and counterproductive, the same with trying to run some sort of Cultural Revolution reeducation craziness.
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Ahh rgr, yeah back when I first started I had a little talk with Boma about all that. He was pretty bitter OOC about the whole thing it seemed. Kinda seemed to me like he pushed it a little to hard and maybe that informed where I was headed.
I totally tried to buy his last corpse of whoever had it, was going to make a little ancestor shrine for him and say Souch read his opinions in college. Sadly whoever it was that had it would not sell. They might not have realized just how much I would pay but such is life lol.
Le sigh. Yeah, that sounds about right; he and I went round and round about it OOC a couple of times, and he did get a little bitter that nobody much took up his cause. We developed a bit of quasi-canon around it where he was a descendant of a mostly-vanished family/sect of nationalist Achura who left rather than bear the shame of living under, as he perceived it, a conquering power. Sadly, that seems really difficult with this new bit of PF-- they probably couldn't have hopped a ship if they'd wanted to, not least because the uplift apparently occurred while the Achura were a pre-industrial society and the Caldari were still nominally part of the Federation and building their colonies in secrecy.
"Let's see ... do we let the embittered family of pre-industrial Achur Empire loyalists get offworld to go tell the Federation about our little civics project, here? Noooooooo, don't think so."
Ironically, the very thing that would have most justified his personal timeline also snipped it.
What I meant with the "benevolent overlord" comment was just that the more liberal and open their policy towards the Achur, the more likely discontents would have an opportunity to propagate their beliefs without getting hell stomped.
Agreed-- though the Elder Visionaries may have been a bit sharply pointed about this themselves.
"Are you kidding? Have you even seen the cities? Do you, at all, understand what these people could do to us? To our families? To our community? You're confined to the grounds until you learn some sense, you young hothead, and don't push me unless you want a lesson in some of the harsher parts of our history. This monastery has no need for firebrands."
This, however, would pose no problem at all for your character, and I'm sure there are some simmering resentments bubbling along in this heart or that one. I just don't expect that the Achura have their own organized version of the Templis Dragonaurs waiting in the wings.
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That is a pretty interesting point about the possibility of Achur on Achur repression (get your minds out of the gutter). It is very possible the earliest decision makers made it clear that walking the middle path would benefit them much more than any doomed rebellions.
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Well, considering SuVee stance on most things, I suspect their goal would simply be to extract the most value for the least amount of work (and possible trouble). An armed occupation would be expensive and counterproductive, the same with trying to run some sort of Cultural Revolution reeducation craziness.
Hee. Funnily enough, Svetlana, I actually think SuVee was kind of easy-going on the ruthless pragmatism here-- almost even *gasp* principled.
Thing is, they apparently DID do some sort of Cultural Revolution reeducation craziness-- in the urban areas, to the (if I'm reading it right) "vast majority" of the ethnic Achura. (Or maybe the city population has just grown way-fast since, what with abruptly super-modernized medical tech or whatever-- at any rate, it seems most modern Achura live in the cities as full-fledged Caldari.) It was a full-scale uplift.
They just didn't touch the rural bits, much, unless a monastery happened to be sitting on a particularly nifty ore deposit. They probably could have just swallowed Achur civilization whole with not too much more effort, and gotten easier access to the rest of those tasty planetary resources into the bargain ... but they left the vast majority of the planet as a sort of reservation, as far as I can tell. Those who were uplifted apparently have a sentimental attachment to SuVee-- they tend to look there first for both work and purchasing opportunities. This doesn't bespeak a particularly vicious taskmaster, though admittedly there might be some indoctrination at play.
Vikarion said that he saw the Achura as the Caldari "pet the dog" moment, a humanizing touch. Well, maybe they still are-- for SuVee, of all entities, even. SuVee even seems to enjoy having such interesting neighbors, and employs their art in its advertising campaigns and corporate literature.
When you meet an impoverished but clever cousin with rich land, you might take a certain amount of advantage, possibly quite extensive ... but it takes a pretty cold heart to just destroy the poor guy.
After all, he's still family.
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(Or maybe the city population has just grown way-fast since, what with abruptly super-modernized medical tech or whatever-- at any rate, it seems most modern Achura live in the cities as full-fledged Caldari.)
This seems likely, to me, considering we're talking about a society that was completely pre-industrial - Only a tiny percentage likely lived in the cities. Actually, since they probably take up a comparatively very small amount of the planets actual geography, it wouldn't surprise me if culturally Achur Achur still sort of think of the urban areas as fairly isolated pockets of harmless foreign influence in a world that is still, largely, theirs - Despite the fact that they've grown to the point that they outnumber them.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
... Okay, admittedly, the actual, RL Cultural Revolution didn't work out so well. It seems like a total-cultural-conversion uplift would have a fair few of the same aims without ... y'know ... famine. Regardless, the Caldari uplift apparently worked.
(Or maybe the city population has just grown way-fast since, what with abruptly super-modernized medical tech or whatever-- at any rate, it seems most modern Achura live in the cities as full-fledged Caldari.)
This seems likely, to me, considering we're talking about a society that was completely pre-industrial - Only a tiny percentage likely lived in the cities. Actually, since they probably take up a comparatively very small amount of the planets actual geography, it wouldn't surprise me if culturally Achur Achur still sort of think of the urban areas as fairly isolated pockets of harmless foreign influence in a world that is still, largely, theirs - Despite the fact that they've grown to the point that they outnumber them.
Hrrrrrm.
Perhaps for some, for a while?
The center of Achur civilization pre-Caldari apparently was not the monasteries, so I'm pretty sure they noticed that all of a sudden the government was full of weird space ghost people running everything. Once everyone concerned worked out who was running things on behalf of the rural Achura, some of the more isolated ones might have kinda gone "meh" about the whole phenomenon ...
... but I'm not sure I see that outliving, say, half a century. The Achura are pretty curious, observant, and pragmatic, so I suspect somebody somewhere got a hold of, say, some urban census report and went "ZOMG." Even if not, take it from a DUST player: Caldari planetary structures are not subtle and they're not small.
There's a certain five-objective map that has a Caldari version and a Gallente version. The Gallente version is pretty low-key, and consequently tends to involve a lot of plinking from long range: the facility's in a low-lying area and you can snipe right over it. The Caldari version of the apparently self-same facility? Um. It's taller by five to twenty times, depending on which bit. You can forget sniping over it unless you can get up on top. Most of its lowest buildings are about as tall as the tallest buildings of the Gallente facility, and its tallest are towers with peaks roughly level with a dropship's flight ceiling.
That's a pretty consistent pattern for Caldari architecture throughout DUST.
If the Caldari set up a city on your doorstep, you'd notice. If your own dwelling was a wood or earthen hut, you'd notice a whole lot.
(Also, come to think of it, Achura who wash out of Caldari society on the Achur homeworld are probably some of the luckiest nonentities anywhere in the State. When told to get out, they likely have someplace to get out -to-. Such travelers are likely to carry all kinds of news.)
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Ahh, I think you took my meaning slightly wrong, there. I didn't mean to imply that they would be oblivious of the cities presence or size. That would be a little absurd. Merely that their mentality might be that they consider them the exception, rather then the rule, on the planet. They think they - meaning the cities - are the isolated and small communities cut off from greater Achura society with the bizzare and unconventional foreign culture, rather then the other way around.
For example, one somewhat more xenophobic then normal Achur might say, "We have to stop these awful Caldari from taking over our planet and destroying our way of life!", to which others would probably give him a funny look and reply that barely even rule over a single percent of the actual planets surface, and that it is still very much theirs.
They wouldn't really think about the massively growing population figures. And why would they? Their actual relationship with the urban SuVee ruled areas has probably changed very little in the past 200 years.
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Ahh, I think you took my meaning slightly wrong, there. I didn't mean to imply that they would be oblivious of the cities presence or size. That would be a little absurd. Merely that their mentality might be that they consider them the exception, rather then the rule, on the planet. They think they - meaning the cities - are the isolated and small communities cut off from greater Achura society with the bizzare and unconventional foreign culture, rather then the other way around.
For example, one somewhat more xenophobic then normal Achur might say, "We have to stop these awful Caldari from taking over our planet and destroying our way of life!", to which others would probably give him a funny look and reply that barely even rule over a single percent of the actual planets surface, and that it is still very much theirs.
They wouldn't really think about the massively growing population figures. And why would they? Their actual relationship with the urban SuVee ruled areas has probably changed very little in the past 200 years.
Point.
I'm sort of imagining if the Combine (Half Life 2), minus head crabs and other fun extradimensional beasties (interplanetary invasive species bad, m'kay?) had set up its citadels and sort of eaten City 17 and pretty much every other major metropolitan area, but then kept to itself and opened a bunch of trading posts.
Only Earth at the time is China in about 1600 CE.
Fun times?
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I would just point out that all the PF says is pre-industrial. That leaves a lot of room for interpretation as to what exactly that means. Not sure that it is as easy as pre-industrial = barely any cities. Say the bulk of Achur lived in city-states with some sort of communal fields being worked outside of the walls. In that scenario replacing the cities specifically could have quite an effect.
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I would just point out that all the PF says is pre-industrial. That leaves a lot of room for interpretation as to what exactly that means. Not sure that it is as easy as pre-industrial = barely any cities. Say the bulk of Achur lived in city-states with some sort of communal fields being worked outside of the walls. In that scenario replacing the cities specifically could have quite an effect.
It's worth noting that Elizabethan London was pre-industrial, as was Imperial Rome. Both of those had hundreds of thousands, possibly even a million people in the case of Rome. On the other hand, they had a much smaller urban/rural population ratio simply because of the higher number of people needed to handle agricultural tasks to feed those cities.
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Yeah, I was going to say.
Pre-industrial socities always require a far greater rural population, no matter how big the urban areas become - This is pretty much a universal constant in history. Without factories and industry, towns and cities are inherently places where goods are only traded and consumed, never actually produced. There's simply neither enough food nor actual work to sustain a majority population.
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Svetlana:
Assuming that we've got the right of all this stuff, I would like your opinion on whether the Caldari would have any, dare I say, pet name for traditional Achura-- any specific title. It seems like, if it exists, it's probably little-known outside of Saisio III itself (the Achura being, capsuleer and related activities aside, notoriously isolationist), so it would be entirely probable that any Achur capsuleers reverting to their origins would need to propagate this bit o' local lingo themselves-- IF, as I say, it exists.
I'd like your own current thoughts on whether there would be one and, if so, what it might be.
This is, I'm coming to realize, a kinda controversial thing I'm asking about/for-- a direct modification to an existing and relatively well-established bit of Caldari (not Achura) quasi-canon. I've always studied the Caldari State with very much an eye to the Achur perspective, and this isn't that; there may be a touch of wish-fulfillment in my approach. The same may arguably be said of Gwen, or any other Achur player-- after all, this is something the Caldari would have come up with for the Achura, and not, probably, with their permission.
Care to share your thoughts?
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I do not think the Caldari would have any title for the Achura; as far as they are considered the Achura are State citizens, under Sukuuvestaa's sovereign umbrella. The nature of citizenship in the State is somewhat undefined at the moment as well; obviously corporate citizens are covered under the Caldari, but that does not answer the question of the ranks of the dispossessed. Presumably they still have some inherent rights (they cannot be enslaved, for instance, or murdered -- though presumably law enforcement in the shantytowns is scant or simply the work of gangs), but they don't have the same rights as a corporate citizen.
If the Achura are a "client state" (even though I think this is highly unlikely, at least in any sort of formal arrangement -- SuVee owns Saisio lock, stock, and barrel if you ask me), they likely fall in this grey area, though obviously an Achura monastery or village is considerably better off than a shantytown made from the refuse of the cities. I also think it's highly unlikely the Achura live like the Pennsylvania Dutch; they may prefer small agricultural villages, but if they prize invention and engineering as a spiritual pursuit, I can't imagine them eschewing technology. Their homeworld is probably just as advanced as any Caldari world, though likely pushed mostly to agriculture and low population density (outside the main cities).
While the SuVee personnel on Achura may have a colloquialism for the rural Achura (like we might call someone a hick or a country bumpkin), I find it highly unlikely this would be formalized. An Achura would get the same honorific as any other Caldari. I don't see anything in the Achura background that makes it sound like they resisted the arrival of SuVee and their amalgamation into the State; as long as the Achura worked with the corporate system, even if they kept their own traditions, I can't see them trying to stomp that out, especially since they consider the Achura traditions (and values) to be so close to their own. There would be no reason to stigmatize the Achura as outsiders; what does it gain the other Caldari?
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Presumably they still have some inherent rights (they cannot be enslaved, for instance, or murdered -- though presumably law enforcement in the shantytowns is scant or simply the work of gangs), but they don't have the same rights as a corporate citizen.
EVElopedia states quite the opposite. (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State#Non-entity)
Non-entity
The meritocratic and ultracompetitive nature of the State means there are just as many winners as there are losers. The non-entity caste are the disenfranchised individuals of the State, having lost absolutely everything (including their citizenship) due to their failure to keep up with what many call a social form of natural selection[9]. The State has the largest ratio of its population considered impoverished, although authorities do not account for these groups in census reports. As social inequality and poverty is morally justified according to Caldari meritocracy, the wider State is not held back by having to concern itself with taking care of what society dub as failures and effectively non-Caldari. Many are expected to undertake a form of ritual suicide rather than live in the shame and dishonor of being non-entity.
Non-entities inhabit fringe communities outside of corporate-controlled territory within Caldari space. As rural areas on planets tend to be void of any corporate presence outside of automated facilities, non-entity communities can be found here. The Guristas frequently use these locations as a staging area for organized crime or military operations against the State. In other cases, entire worlds are inhabited by these non-entities. Because Caldari authorities do not consider non-entities to have any rights or protections, they will displace or otherwise eradicate communities deemed to be a threat to the order. Some of the Practical-leaning corporations may employ non-entities on a very minute wage in industries that are illegal or otherwise questionable.
Many critics of the State feel that the treatment of the non-entity caste is not justified at all. It is very common in the State for citizens to give it their all and fail nonetheless, or are punished by a scaled grading system as a result of the outstanding performance of just a few exceptional individuals. In addition, trends show that firstborn children are far less likely to fail than their siblings, while individuals born with physical or mental debilitations are traditionally abandoned in non-entity communities. Various structural inequalities may also prevent advancement and off-handedly result in forcing citizens off of the bottom rung. Though there are always active efforts to eradicate institutional corruption, the Caldari State has the issues of any interstellar empire in trying to ensure all of its territories abide by its core principles, meaning this battle is a continuous one.
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I've already discussed my issues with that article. I don't think displacing them is one thing, wholesale slaughter is another entirely. The Caldari have never been portrayed like that anywhere else, even in the worst of TonyG's stuff. And it contradicts itself as well (they are expected to commit suicide and can be killed at will, but there's still millions or billions of them lying around?). The Caldari are cold and pragmatic, but they are not Sanshas.
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I've already discussed my issues with that article. I don't think displacing them is one thing, wholesale slaughter is another entirely. The Caldari have never been portrayed like that anywhere else, even in the worst of TonyG's stuff. And it contradicts itself as well (they are expected to commit suicide and can be killed at will, but there's still millions or billions of them lying around?). The Caldari are cold and pragmatic, but they are not Sanshas.
Well you said "presumably", so I took that to mean you weren't aware of what PF actually said. If you simply don't agree with PF, that's another thing entirely.
I have to ask though... are you ignoring the PF in favor of the way you think it should be? I don't have a problem with that mind you, I'm just trying to understand you clearly. I like your version better than PF... but I was under the assumption that PF is canon, and I always thought you'ree not supposed to argue with canon.
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I don't think anyones suggesting that Achura is technologically backwards (Well, atleast I'm not), just infrastruturally. As somebody who has a bit of family in rural Japan, that's how I tend to picture the planet. Fairly modern but small towns with some really clear archaic elements just beneath the surface if one looks.
In regard to the other stuff... Well, I can respect your distaste for ways that the setting has changed, Svetlana. I might not have played long, but it's obvious to me it's been pretty much run through the mud, with enough revisions and contradictions of past sources to make ones head hurt.
But at the end of the day, if you choose to ignore PF - Even if it is "unlikely", or just plain stupid - You're playing in a different world then I am. And that kinda makes discussing the setting like this a bit pointless.
I mean... It literally says "client state", and "autonomous government", and the other article says there are explicit nonpersons outside of corporate hierarchy who don't have this special status. So, well...
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I haven't got much to contribute here, but as someone who picked Achura long before seriously deciding to RP, this has been a very thought-provoking discussion. Thanks.
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I don't think anyones suggesting that Achura is technologically backwards (Well, atleast I'm not), just infrastruturally.
I imagine it as something out of Samsara. Just a day's walk off the main roads, there are monasteries where the trappings of daily life is basically indistinguishable from life three hundred years ago. About once a month, a severely out-of-place looking census taker or social worker passes through, counting heads or handing out vaccinations, antibiotics and the like.
With genuine concern, they ask whether the monks still don't want to get a permanent connection to the infosphere. "It's great, you can watch funny pictures of cats and everything."
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The Achur seem to be a minority culture and society within a wider Caldari State that is racially and culturally homogenous, high militarized, nationalist, corporatist and capitalist. The entire relationship and "accord" between Caldari State corporations and its citizens is that they don't get in the way and make too much of a fuss or draw attention to themselves. However, in a hypothetical scenario, if SuVee one day decides to go ahead and build the equivalent of the Three Gorges Damn somewhere in rural Saisio III and forcibly remove Achurans from their villages and deport them elsewhere, who are they going to complain to?
Sukuuvestaa has legal jurisdiction at a corporate level if its their real-estate, they can just say those villagers are squatters in the CBT because there's no independent courts for those villagers to launch any form of legal process. Appeal to the public? Sukuuvestaa can just spin or frame those villagers as agitators, seditionists, dissidents or what have you and send in the boots of the Peace and Order Unit to clear them out and if it's done in a way that appeals to Caldari nationalist sentiment or which makes them an, "Enemy of the State" what public support would those evicted villagers receive?
Sure, the fact the State is currently presented as a deeply authoritarian, perhaps even fascist, society where corporations control all aspects of civic and political life, might be unpalatable to some by modern standards but there it is.
And why wouldn't Caldari have a polite diminutive for Achur -- especially among Patriot born citizens -- that shows their subtle contempt for Achurans that don't integrate into State society, thus showing that they prefer to be a regressive and backwards people who don't contribute anything to the Greater Good?
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Well, keep in mind that there are Achur in high positions in Sukuuvestaa, even if they're not dominant - They probably have quite a few shareholders, now. Even though they might be converted to Caldari culture, they're probably irrationally sentimental for their homeworld in the same way Caldari are for their own. Thus, there's probably enough internal pressure to leave Saisio III alone that it's generally easier and more economical to find other places to build their latest industrial colony/uranium mine/organ harvesting farm.
Also, I don't believe it's ever said that SuVee actually owns the land in the rural areas, or if the Elder Visionaries just directly submissive to the State as a collective whole. (Although obviously they could seize it without much effort if they could somehow overcome the aforementioned internal challenges.)
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If their status, rights, and privileges as a client nation is enshrined in a contract of some sort - and where else would it be? - they could maybe appeal to the CBT?
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If their status, rights, and privileges as a client nation is enshrined in a contract of some sort - and where else would it be? - they could maybe appeal to the CBT?
Well that's the thing isn't it? If there's no indication of some kind independent "Achuran Authority" then where do Achurans outside of a Megacorporation have any sort of legal rights in the State, where without a constitution, it's only a Megacorporation that provides legal rights to their employees/citizens?
I don't see Sukuvestaa bulldozing around Saisio III not because they can't - they can - it's only because they have no practical reason to do so at this point in time. Sure, SuVee might have an Achuran presence internally, a greater one in fact than any other Megacorp, but there's a difference to playing to the Achur culture out of Public Relations and putting a positive spin on how much it cares for the Achur people to cover its perhaps less than savory business practices but that doesn't change the fact that it's a Caldari Megacorp with a reputation for ruthlessness in an already ruthless corporate environment -- if Saisio III had something SuVee wanted I don't think all the rose-tinted Caldari-Achur Friendship posters are going to stop them from going to get it, and there's very little I think native Achurans could do to prevent it.
The current arrangement the State has with the Achur to me is precisely because they are minority, aren't a point of cultural friction, and display a general willingness to integrate into Caldari Megacorporate society without too much hassle. If the Achur ever started causing issues due to their position in the State for SuVee or indeed any Mega, then the current dynamics of the Caldari-Achuran relationship would be liable to change I think.
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I'm not sure I agree with your assumption that the Achura have "no rights" other then those provided to them by SuVee, considering it's been established that they have a quite special and unique relationship with the Caldari as a whole (Specifically, the article says "with The State" rather then "With Sukuuvestaa", I should note) that might well result in them existing somewhat outside of the regular corporate governance structure. For all we know, the Elder Visionaries might even be considered their own quasi-independent "corporation" like entity, which while pure theory, might make a decent bit of sense considering considering the article describes them as a "government".
And again, it's not really made clear just how much sway Achur have within the corporation proper. While the Demographics article quite cleanly lays out the facts of the the relationship with the State, it doesn't really go into the metapolitics of the whole affair. It's impossible to know just how it's set up, in both practical and legal respects.
I mean, I know you're a fan of the grimdarkfacistdeathfuture interpretation of the PF in general, Gesakaarin, and that's all well and good. But in this case there's not really anything at present to suggest it's anything but: An interpretation.
Still, it's not really likely it'll ever be tested - Since doing so would sort of entail radically changing the Achura backgrounds, something I doubt CCP would ever do - So I don't suppose it really matters which is correct, since "We could squish you Achura on a whim if we wanted" and "Silly Caldari, we have enough influence that that would never happen" are both quite valid IC standpoints to hold, regardless of the actual situation in pure legal/logistical terms.
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Well that's the thing isn't it? If there's no indication of some kind independent "Achuran Authority" then where do Achurans outside of a Megacorporation have any sort of legal rights in the State, where without a constitution, it's only a Megacorporation that provides legal rights to their employees/citizens?
They're described as a "client state". That 'state' is relevant; it indicates that while they're (obviously) in a subservient position, they are recognized as an independent entity that has some rights and privileges. I've no doubt that SuVee can plonk dams wherever it wants on Saisio V nevertheless, but will have to use traditional political methods (ie. vote-trading, graft and strong-arming) to make it nice and legal-like.
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And it contradicts itself as well (they are expected to commit suicide and can be killed at will, but there's still millions or billions of them lying around?). The Caldari are cold and pragmatic, but they are not Sanshas.
Bear in mind that all "nonentity" means is expulsion from Caldari society. The subjects should, in the society's eyes, kill themselves out of shame and can be done in if someone's of a mind to do so, but that's not to say that all can or do.
And this happens pretty much any time someone falls right off the bottom rung of Caldari society-- that is, pretty often.
Not seeing a contradiction there-- not least because the Caldari aren't Sansha. They're human beings, fully capable of mercy (or of just not wanting to dirty their hands).
I was under the assumption that PF is canon, and I always thought you'ree not supposed to argue with canon.
This.
I'll argue with Tony G, but, with due respect to any poor sod who's struggling to assemble a good story, Tony G makes a systematic hash of canon.
The rest is just a pile of bricks I prefer to work with rather than debate the existence of.
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I mean, I know you're a fan of the grimdarkfacistdeathfuture interpretation of the PF in general, Gesakaarin, and that's all well and good. But there's not really anything at present to suggest it's anything but: An interpretation.
Still, it's not really likely it'll ever be tested - Since doing so would sort of entail radically changing the Achura backgrounds, something I doubt CCP would ever do - So I don't suppose it really matters which is correct, since "We could squish you Achura on a whim if we wanted" and "Silly Caldari, we have enough influence that that would never happen" are both quite valid IC standpoints to hold, regardless of the actual situation in pure legal/logistical terms.
Yes, just as it should be, just as most of this thread is in fact personal opinion, theory-crafting and interpretation. It still doesn't change my view the Achur are, and will continue to be in essence a minority in a State with deep roots of Caldari identity and nationalism. And I'm not sure but if, when the very first seconds of the Caldari State introduction video when making a new character describe it by terms such as, "ruthless corporate dictatorship" why you would think that whole grimdarkfascistdeathfuture is just an interpretation when I've only accepted and internalized what CCP has practically thrown at me.
If you don't want to engage with that aspect of the State, that's your own affair, but not recognizing things in the Demographics article on the Caldari such as say, its militarism and national service, its treatment of minorities and those who aren't part of the corporate system, its focus on the Caldari race as a component of Caldari culture and the degree of nationalism that inculcates, its talk of indoctrination into the corporate system of its citizen then what other political system is there that exists that espouses cultural conservatism, authoritarianism, racial nationalism, corporatism, the importance of the State collectively over the individual, except for Fascism?
So yes, I've had to accept that the character I play was born, raised and educated in what is essentially a Fascist society and my explorations into the State and its society is into the nature of Caldari Fascism as distinct and separate from its modern interpretations as a political ideology focusing instead on its fictional development as it applies to the Caldari State given its history and culture. Now, sure, if someone can construct for me an interpretation as to how the Caldari State is not essentially Fascist in character politically, culturally, and socially as it applies to the Caldari then I'm more than willing to read them.
Now, if you want to disagree in favour of your own interpretation of the State and the Achur's role in it that's your own affair but the hypothetical I provided earlier was intended to point out that the Achur are in fact dependent on Sukuuvestaa given what has been provided on the nature of the State. SuVee could do what they want with Saisio III because they are Megacorporate entity in the State but they don't. because of the strong presence of Achur working for it at high-levels and because even if SuVee are ruthless bastards they can't renege on the recognition they have granted the Achur historically and with all the media/PR they have involving Achur or they would probably lose face and business in the State.
And the extant point to me with that is that it applies to the rest of the State, there's little individuals or groups of people can do to resist what Megacorporate management decides to do because all legal authority and power flows from the corporation itself -- the only means to protect yourself aren't through things like independent courts or constitutional rights but rather either by having enough power or influence for yourself within the corporation or by ensuring that any actions taken against you would be detrimental.
In this, the checks on SuVee being harsh on Achurans is due to the influence they have within the Mega and that it might be seen as a grossly detrimental action affecting its bottom line that its Megacorporate competitors might use against them: "Sukuuvestaa oppresses innocent Achuran villagers on Saisio. Is there no low they would not stoop to? Next, on Hyasyoda News Services".
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I should clarify I wasn't trying to be rude with my last post - Pardon if it came off that way. My "grimdarkfascistdeathfuture" comment was just me being silly. I totally understand where such a conception of the society comes from, and I think you play it well.
Of course, you're quite right that this is all just interpretation. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. My only intent was to refute the idea that SuVee definitely has absolute control and free reign over the land and populace of Saisio III, and little to no respect for them, when in fact the lore behind it is pretty darn vague. I wouldn't want to see that accepted as universal fact amongst the RP community when the PF has hardly put it's foot down on the matter, since, like I said to you earlier, Achura roleplayers have a very small sandbox to play in. It's something that would be felt across the whole planet - And have to be, logically, felt in the backgrounds of all the characters from it.
I can see that we're not going to agree, though, since we've obviously got very different pictures of the setting in our heads. So I'll leave it at that.
Again, apologies if I was a bit more abrasive then I intended.
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I do disagree with that article; I don't think it is particularly correct on many things and while I initially didn't have much of a problem with it, the more I read closely, the more it makes my teeth grind. Considering how it seems to clash with almost everything else we've read about the Caldari, I consider it an outlier and I generally keep my hands off dealing with such things. You can take it for what you will but for now I am suspicious of it.
As far as why wouldn't the Caldari have a word for the Achura that don't fit into Caldari society -- why would the Achura be any different from ANY Caldari that doesn't fit into society? Living in a rural town is hardly a rejection of Caldari culture; obviously there must be thousands or millions of small Caldari towns in the middle of vast agricultural fields or established on remote outposts or what have you. That doesn't mean they have rejected Caldari culture. If they outright reject it, why are they any different from any other Caldari?
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... what other political system is there that exists that espouses cultural conservatism, authoritarianism, racial nationalism, corporatism, the importance of the State collectively over the individual, except for Fascism?
None existing ... which is part of what makes the Caldari interesting.
Please note that (while it seems to me that the veil is cheesecloth thin) the article repeatedly asserts that Caldari nationalism is not racial, but cultural. We can also infer from certain of its views (esp. of the Achura and Intaki, as noted in the article on the Way of the Winds) that it's not supremacist, but isolationist.
They intensely want to be themselves, but do not necessarily feel the need to dominate others-- even if that's sometimes the net effect.
The Templis Dragonaurs (of whom Heth is one, I believe) are flat-out fascist. They are also, however, historically marginalized and are quickly becoming marginal once more; the Caldari merely teeter continuously on the edge of fascism, constantly maintaining a small handful of distinguishing factors, (culture, not race; apart, not above) which is a large part of why I give a damn.
Frankly, Nazis are tedious. There's nothing more boring than fascist art-- but fascist societies do tend to have abundant use for it, so long as it glorifies them. The Caldari approach to art is mostly that it's not useful and you'd damn well better have a day job-- they conspicuously, consciously care about function over form and they care more about distinguishing their culture from others than they do about glorying in its supposed superiority.
That's not really a fascist attitude; it's a functionalist and isolationist one.
The distinction is important partly because that the Caldari are not quite (but almost, and constantly in danger of being) the Helghast is a large slice of what makes them fun.
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I do disagree with that article; I don't think it is particularly correct on many things and while I initially didn't have much of a problem with it, the more I read closely, the more it makes my teeth grind. Considering how it seems to clash with almost everything else we've read about the Caldari, I consider it an outlier and I generally keep my hands off dealing with such things. You can take it for what you will but for now I am suspicious of it.
If you can find us evidence that it's quasi-canon, by all means do so. Until then, it's new material and does a better job of threading several canonical needles than most versions of PF I've seen (including my own original ideas for how the Achura fit in)-- which is as close as CCP gets to "CURRENT GOSPEL TRUTH."
As far as why wouldn't the Caldari have a word for the Achura that don't fit into Caldari society -- why would the Achura be any different from ANY Caldari that doesn't fit into society? Living in a rural town is hardly a rejection of Caldari culture; obviously there must be thousands or millions of small Caldari towns in the middle of vast agricultural fields or established on remote outposts or what have you. That doesn't mean they have rejected Caldari culture. If they outright reject it, why are they any different from any other Caldari?
Because the article repeatedly makes plain that they are distinct from the Caldari.
* They are a "client state." That's already a major mark of distinction right there-- the Civire, for example, are not a client state; they're just plain Caldari.
* Citizens of a "client state" are distinguished from nonentities in that they have legal rights within Caldari society.
* The rural Achura are the ones who did NOT integrate into SuVee back in the day.
* SuVee has mostly left them alone.
* They have their own government.
* They have to shed their prior identities and become full Caldari citizens to become capsuleers.
* They often revert.
I'm sure I can dig up more, but what exactly in there says "the same" to you?
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I suppose I disagree with how that is portrayed, considering it differs from everything else we've seen before. I think I'm going to step away from this as I think the article you're discussing was not particularly well done in this case, but as you say it is the closest thing to a thorough discussion of the Achura you've seen.
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I suppose I disagree with how that is portrayed, considering it differs from everything else we've seen before. I think I'm going to step away from this as I think the article you're discussing was not particularly well done in this case, but as you say it is the closest thing to a thorough discussion of the Achura you've seen.
Fair enough (and that last bit is ... yeah, definitely true). We've got something of a stake in this, I guess-- if the article's in some way bogus, we'll lose fully half our canon. :P
We can discuss the rest of it elsewhere, perhaps. I don't think it's actually inconsistent, but that's a conversation we can have in its own topic. Perhaps I'll start one later on-- you game?
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I'm not sure I want to go down that road, I have a head full of steam about it now and I need to back off and take a bit of a breather. Sorry.
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Fair enough. I'll get the topic started, though (it seems kind of important)-- just jump in when you're feeling ready.
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To my understanding, the Eve Encyclopedia stuff was undertaken as a means to take a setting that is kind of often vague and contradictory and codify/solidify it. (At least, based on some article by Abraxas someone linked to me like half a year ago.) To turn a bunch of loose ideas and stories into a concrete world that makes actual sense.
So... It seems obvious that a lot of old stuff was probably going to get somewhat brutally retconned in the process of justifying everything thus far and readjusting the existing background into a state of long term coherency.
Can one really just declare it an "outlier" and ignore it, when it was created for this intent?
I mean... It worries me that it could be ignored by large elements of the community, considering the kind of conflicts that might lead to OOCly. It's a first party source, and an extremely rich and detailed one. I built a lot of aspects of my character around that article. Many others have. And many more probably will, in the future.
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It is not new in itself. And yes, it can lead to countless OOC dramas.
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I have had plenty of instances with that article I did not like at all. Notably among them was the mention of interracial and homosexual relationships in the That is a very very restrictive thing to have as part of PF, for me.
Even with how much I hated it I have still accepted it into my RP. Katrina is Federation-married to a Gallente female. Three major things that she's done that are extremely un-Caldari according to PF. I still dread somebody noticing it and using it as a gateway to calling her out as "Not Caldari".
PF is canon, and canon is the lore rulebook you sign up to using when you start roleplaying. It's like the rulebook for D&D. You can't just ignore the parts you don't like, imo. Suggesting we can can introduce a slippery slope.
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Even with how much I hated it I have still accepted it into my RP. Katrina is Federation-married to a Gallente female. Three major things that she's done that are extremely un-Caldari according to PF. I still dread somebody noticing it and using it as a gateway to calling her out as "Not Caldari".
But the more important Caldari characteristic (at least from my view) is that Katrina does not flaunt it.
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But at the end of the day, if you choose to ignore PF - Even if it is "unlikely", or just plain stupid - You're playing in a different world then I am. And that kinda makes discussing the setting like this a bit pointless.
I think what Svetlana was getting at was that in that article where it says one thing and then the exact opposite within the same paragraph which do bit do you stand by? Presumably the bit that makes either the most sense or least amount of nonsense.
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I think what Svetlana was getting at was that in that article where it says one thing and then the exact opposite within the same paragraph which do bit do you stand by? Presumably the bit that makes either the most sense or least amount of nonsense.
What part are you referring to, exactly?
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I think what Svetlana was getting at was that in that article where it says one thing and then the exact opposite within the same paragraph which do bit do you stand by? Presumably the bit that makes either the most sense or least amount of nonsense.
My preferred approach is to figure out how it's not a contradiction. Life's full of compromises and nuance. Actual, factual contradictions are thin on the ground, but things that look like contradictions are much more common.
Look at PF with that in mind, and many things that appear impossible become merely nuanced.
If you are speaking of Svetlana's concerns regarding the population of nonentities despite the expectation that they will suicide and the fact that they can be legally killed, my response is simply that expectation does not imply occurrence, can be does not imply will be, and Caldari of various castes become nonentities on a regular basis.
Out of a population of quite possibly trillions, that probably results in a good many survivors grouping up in shanty towns and wilderness villages.
There's no contradiction here that I can see.