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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Makkal on 15 Jun 2013, 19:21

Title: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Makkal on 15 Jun 2013, 19:21
(http://i3.17173.itc.cn/2012/eve/2012/06/03/08.jpg)


The other empires have their own faction threads, so I think it's time to start one for the Kingdom folks. Here we compile all the information we can about the Khanid Kingdom and then discuss how we have the best paint jobs!
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Makkal on 15 Jun 2013, 19:22
Let's start simple. Is the Kingdom part of the Empire or not?

The current situation is...

Quote
Just to clarify things, since I've been asked to do so:

Khanid II recognized Jamyl I as the rightful Empress of the Amarr people and dropped any claim he might have on her throne.
The Khanid Kingdom and the Amarr Empire now enjoy a mutual defense pact.
The Khanid Kingdom retains its de facto independence, but is a de jure vassal state of the Empire. Or, otherwise, Khanid II is technically a subordinate to Jamyl I, but otherwise runs his Kingdom exactly the same way he did prior to the whole agreement.
The Khanid Family has a seat on the Privy Council.

I'll leave it up to future revelations and player theory crafting to decide why exactly this whole thing was agreed to, but I believe you should be able to read between the lines to figure things out.
From CCP Eterne (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2567793#post2567793)
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Silver Night on 15 Jun 2013, 19:33
Added it to the sticky - if you don't mind adding links to one of the ops as people come up with them (or you find them) MAkkal, that would be cool.  :D
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Makkal on 15 Jun 2013, 19:38
News Stories! \o/

Mar 16, 2004 -  Ishukone and Khanid Kingdom sign multitrillion trade deal on Transcranial Microcontrollers (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/ishukone-and-khanid-kingdom-sign-multitrillion-trade-deal-on-transcranial-microcontrollers/)

Mar 19, 2004 - Khanid Kingdom strenuously denies ill treatment of slaves (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/khanid-kingdom-strenuously-denies-ill-treatment-of-slaves/)

Mar 23, 2004 - Otro Gariushi defends Dark Amarr deal - claims chips improve slaves' lives (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/otro-gariushi-defends-dark-amarr-deal-claims-chips-improve-slaves-lives/)

Apr 02, 2004 –  Minor Skirmish on the Khanid Border (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/minor-skirmish-on-the-khanid-border/)

Apr 07, 2004 - Transcranial Chip price rises as Federation demand increases (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/transcranial-chip-price-rises-as-federation-demand-increases/)

Apr 11, 2004 - Dark Amarr rifts chip deal with Ishukone (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/dark-amarr-rifts-chip-deal-with-ishukone/)

Aug 12, 2005 - Khanid refute CONCORD claims (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/khanid-refute-concord-claims/)

Aug 12, 2005 - Amarr Tensions (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/amarr-tensions/)

Aug 21, 2005 –  Amarr Navy skirmish with Khanid forces (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/amarr-navy-skirmish-with-khanid-forces/)

Oct 06, 2005 –  Blood Raiders strike at the Khanid Empire (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/blood-raiders-strike-at-the-khanid-empire/)

Nov 08, 2005 - CONCORD Memo Leaked (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/concord-memo-leaked/)

Dec 12, 2005 - Empire Moves to Deny CONCORD Claims as Internal Investigation Continues (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/empire-moves-to-deny-concord-claims-as-internal-investigation-continues/)

Sep 6, 2006 –  Loyalist Capsuleers obstruct theft of Khanid Carrier (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/loyalist-capsuleers-obstruct-theft-of-khanid-carrier/)

Nov 28, 2006 –  Khanid Transport Submits Investigation into Kingdom Economic Woes (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/khanid-transport-submits-investigation-into-kingdom-economic-woes/)

Jul 17, 2007 - Intaki Bank secures funding for Syndicate R&D program (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/intaki-bank-secures-funding-for-syndicate-r-d-program/)

May 13, 2008 –  Khanid corporations rally behind Gariushi (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/khanid-corporations-rally-behind-gariushi/)

Jun 10, 2008 –  Khanid Kingdom fortifies borders (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/khanid-kingdom-fortifies-borders/)

Jun 11, 2008 –  Khanid Kingdom stands down Navy, Mordu follows suit (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/khanid-kingdom-stands-down-navy-mordu-follows-suit/)

Sep 21, 2008 - Independent audit receives mixed reception outside the State (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/independent-audit-receives-mixed-reception-outside-the-state/)

Oct 06, 2008 –  Order of St. Tetrimon welcomes Jamyl Sarum home (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/order-of-st.-tetrimon-welcomes-jamyl-sarum-home/)

Oct 16, 2008 –  Khanid Convoy Rescued By Tash-Murkon Patrol (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/khanid-convoy-rescued-by-tash-murkon-patrol/)

Oct 28, 2008 –  Tash-Murkon Navy Officers Honored By Khanid Kingdom (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/tash-murkon-navy-officers-honored-by-khanid-kingdom-1/)

Nov 24, 2008 –  Tash-Murkon Family Receives Khanid Innovation Delegation (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/tash-murkon-family-receives-khanid-innovation-delegation/)

Dec 11, 2008 –  Caldari Trade Mission Visits Khanid Kingdom, Meets With Tash-Murkon (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/caldari-trade-mission-visits-khanid-kingdom-meets-with-tash-murkon-1/)

Dec 21, 2008 - Khanid forces mounting large-scale attacks against Blood Raider targets (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/khanid-forces-mounting-large-scale-attacks-against-blood-raider-targets/)
Dec 21, 2008 - Royal Khanid Navy releases statement on Blood Raider attacks (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/royal-khanid-navy-releases-statement-on-blood-raider-attacks/)


Dec 23, 2008 - Amarr Empire announces capture of former Chamberlain (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/amarr-empire-announces-capture-of-former-chamberlain/)

Jan 09, 2009 –  Imperial Navy Observer Reports on Khanid Operations Against Blood Raiders (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/imperial-navy-observer-reports-on-khanid-operations-against-blood-raiders-1/)

May 26, 2009 - Khanid 1st Fleet crosses Imperial border, meets Amarr Navy (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/khanid-1st-fleet-crosses-imperial-border-meets-amarr-navy/)
May 26, 2009 - King Khanid II arrives in Tash-Murkon Prime, met by Catiz Tash-Murkon (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/king-khanid-ii-arrives-in-tash-murkon-prime-met-by-catiz-tash-murkon/)

Jun 01, 2009 - King Khanid II departs Tash-Murkon Prime, arrives in Amarr (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/king-khanid-ii-departs-tash-murkon-prime-arrives-in-amarr/)

Jun 02, 2009 - Empress Jamyl I meets with King Khanid II (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/empress-jamyl-i-meets-with-king-khanid-ii/)

Jun 07, 2009 - Khanid Kingdom granted Privy Council seat (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/khanid-kingdom-granted-privy-council-seat/)

Jun 16, 2009 –  Caldari Look at Khanid-Amarr Reconciliation as Opportunity (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/caldari-look-at-khanid-amarr-reconciliation-as-opportunity/)

Jun 17, 2009 –  Gallente scholar describes Khanid's recent trip to Dam-Torsad as a 'worrying development' (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/gallente-scholar-describes-khanids-recent-trip-to-dam-torsad-as-a-worrying-development/)

Jun 19, 2009 – 'Business as Usual' Say Minmatar Military in Response to Amarr-Khanid Unity (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/business-as-usual-say-minmatar-military-in-response-to-amarr-khanid-unity/)

Jul 25, 2009 –  Khanid Bookstore Achieves a Record Quarter (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/khanid-bookstore-achieves-a-record-quarter/)

Sep 22, 2009 –  CBD Accuses Ishukone of Unfair Competition in the Khanid Kingdom (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/cbd-accuses-ishukone-of-unfair-competition-in-the-khanid-kingdom/)

Oct 28, 2009 –  Wiyrkomi announce new Khanid contract (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/wiyrkomi-announce-new-khanid-contract/)

Nov 3, 2009 –  Poor Sales Reports for Hyasyoda, Executive Vanishes (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/poor-sales-reports-for-hyasyoda-executive-vanishes/)


Nov 11, 2009 –  Khanid Navy Announces Maintenance Contract (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/khanid-navy-announces-maintenance-contract-1/)

Mar 28, 2010 –  Khanid Innovation, Modern Finances Buy Stake in Samarkand Financial (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/khanid-innovation-modern-finances-buy-stake-in-samarkand-financial-1/)
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: hellgremlin on 15 Jun 2013, 20:29
Ah, memories. When we actually referred to them as "Dark Amarr".
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Samira Kernher on 15 Jun 2013, 20:56
They're still Dark Amarr. Damn heretics.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Vincent Pryce on 15 Jun 2013, 21:14
Hail to the King, baby!
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Makkal on 15 Jun 2013, 22:57
They're still Dark Amarr. Damn heretics.

We don't need no damn Theology Council. Our Holders interpret scripture on their own!  8)

PS: Man > God.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 15 Jun 2013, 23:50
We had an awesome AURORA event many years ago where we prevented an ultra-unionist plot to steal an Archon.  We Kingdom Loyalists got to stick it to the dirty Khanid traitors trying to reunify with the Empire :P

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/loyalist-capsuleers-obstruct-theft-of-khanid-carrier/

Khanid II is my favorite PF character in the entire PF.  Love, love, love his story and history and how it unfolded (and continues to unfold).

Also anyone Jamyl calls a 'bag of vipers' and is scared of is not to be trifled with.  :)

KHANID II FOR EMPEROR OF THE UNIVERSE.



Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Lyn Farel on 16 Jun 2013, 03:07
I still have difficulties to cope with the use of the term "mutual defense pact".

What we have ingame does not reflect this the slightest, but sure, it is somehow gameplay vs lore so it doesn't bother me too much.

However a mutual defense pact implies to me an equality between both parties, which have to be more or less independent from each other. It contrasts with the statement that the Khanid are now again a vassal of the Empire. In feudalism the vassal is the only one to pledge his services to his liege to benefit from his protection, it does not go both ways. It is how it works for the Ammatar Mandate, which is a protectorate vassal, and which also explains why the Mandate is currently not involved in the proxy war, unless the Empress call for her levies, which has yet to happen since only the Imperial Navy is now fighting in the war. The vassal families fleets are not involved, the same way that the Ammatar Fleet is not, and the Khanid Navy is also not involved.

A mutual protection pact would imply that the Khanid would have to answer military to come to the Empress help. I think it is a bad choice of words.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Makkal on 16 Jun 2013, 03:26
As I understand it:

Mutual defense: If either the Empire or Kingdom is attacked by another nation, the other party is obliged to lend military aid.

This likely has nothing to do with CONCORD's proxy war, though Kingdom citizen going to Imperial schools might be part of the agreement.

I'm going to guess that being a 'de jure vassal state' while being 'defacto independent' is much like the relationship between Canada and the Queen of England. As I understand it, the Queen of England is technically the Queen of Canada -- it's just that she has no power over Canada's laws, policies, trade, etc.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Lyn Farel on 16 Jun 2013, 03:31
Right. I missed the de jure part.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Repentence Tyrathlion on 16 Jun 2013, 03:43
I became Khanid almost by accident.  The players I started Eve with all went Amarr, so I joined them and Khanid seemed vaguely interesting.

Now the more I learn about them, the more convinced I am that we're the most devious, unscrupulous and downright mean of all the 'lawful' factions.  It's awesome.  All the more so because we sit in a corner and get forgotten about, because the Empire gets all the flak and farms out its justifications - even though most of us Khanid don't really get behind a lot of them. :P
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Makkal on 16 Jun 2013, 04:32
After I came to understand the character of the Kingdom and its nobility, I had to shift Makkal's backstory to explain how someone like her could come from that culture.

I imagine if the Kingdom ever became as powerful as the big four, it would become the evil empire of the setting.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Samira Kernher on 16 Jun 2013, 04:38
However a mutual defense pact implies to me an equality between both parties, which have to be more or less independent from each other. It contrasts with the statement that the Khanid are now again a vassal of the Empire. In feudalism the vassal is the only one to pledge his services to his liege to benefit from his protection, it does not go both ways.

Err, it does go both ways. In a state of vassalage, the vassal pledges their armies to their liege, while the lord agrees to protect their vassal from external forces. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism#Vassalage) That's one of the major aspects of feudalism. A vassal pledges their fealty to their lord, swearing that when their lord requires them, they will train, equip, and provide an army. In return, the lord offers protection for the vassal, along with a grant of land.

Therefore, as it stands with the Empire and the Kingdom, if the Empire goes to war with any other nation, such as the Republic, the Kingdom would be obligated to send troops to assist. If the Kingdom is attacked by any other nation, the Empire is obligated to protect them.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Lyn Farel on 16 Jun 2013, 08:19
That's why I said the big difference lies in the obligation. A vassal does not have to raise his armies to go wage war with his liege unless the liege requires it. A vassal does not protect the liege either, only the liege protects him.

Btw in the current state of the proxy I have yet to see the Ammatar or Khanid navies. Their "levies" have not been raised for the Ammatar, and the mutual protection pact with the Khanid has not been put into the equation (yet) for now.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Repentence Tyrathlion on 16 Jun 2013, 08:34
Btw in the current state of the proxy I have yet to see the Ammatar or Khanid navies. Their "levies" have not been raised for the Ammatar, and the mutual protection pact with the Khanid has not been put into the equation (yet) for now.

In both cases, as Makkal pointed, I suspect that's because the Empire and Republic are technically not at war, so the treaty doesn't come into play.  This would be reinforced by the fact that TLF pilots don't get aggro from Khanid navy forces in the Kingdom.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: kalaratiri on 16 Jun 2013, 10:23
Btw in the current state of the proxy I have yet to see the Ammatar or Khanid navies. Their "levies" have not been raised for the Ammatar, and the mutual protection pact with the Khanid has not been put into the equation (yet) for now.

In both cases, as Makkal pointed, I suspect that's because the Empire and Republic are technically not at war, so the treaty doesn't come into play.  This would be reinforced by the fact that TLF pilots don't get aggro from Khanid navy forces in the Kingdom.

Hence my wonderfully high Khanid navy standing :3
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Vincent Pryce on 16 Jun 2013, 11:30
Btw in the current state of the proxy I have yet to see the Ammatar or Khanid navies. Their "levies" have not been raised for the Ammatar, and the mutual protection pact with the Khanid has not been put into the equation (yet) for now.
In both cases, as Makkal pointed, I suspect that's because the Empire and Republic are technically not at war, so the treaty doesn't come into play.  This would be reinforced by the fact that TLF pilots don't get aggro from Khanid navy forces in the Kingdom.

Hence my wonderfully high Khanid navy standing :3

Which I've always found very lol with kala being pro-republic.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Morwen Lagann on 16 Jun 2013, 12:03
Btw in the current state of the proxy I have yet to see the Ammatar or Khanid navies. Their "levies" have not been raised for the Ammatar, and the mutual protection pact with the Khanid has not been put into the equation (yet) for now.
In both cases, as Makkal pointed, I suspect that's because the Empire and Republic are technically not at war, so the treaty doesn't come into play.  This would be reinforced by the fact that TLF pilots don't get aggro from Khanid navy forces in the Kingdom.

Hence my wonderfully high Khanid navy standing :3

Which I've always found very lol with kala being pro-republic.

Kala is pro-republic, but also pro-Reppywen.

The latter comes with Khanid standings as a side effect. :P
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: kalaratiri on 16 Jun 2013, 14:12
Btw in the current state of the proxy I have yet to see the Ammatar or Khanid navies. Their "levies" have not been raised for the Ammatar, and the mutual protection pact with the Khanid has not been put into the equation (yet) for now.
In both cases, as Makkal pointed, I suspect that's because the Empire and Republic are technically not at war, so the treaty doesn't come into play.  This would be reinforced by the fact that TLF pilots don't get aggro from Khanid navy forces in the Kingdom.

Hence my wonderfully high Khanid navy standing :3

Which I've always found very lol with kala being pro-republic.

Kala is pro-republic, but also pro-Reppywen.

The latter comes with Khanid standings as a side effect. :P

To be fair, Kala has always had a soft spot for the Khanid. She respects those who show defiance in the face of the Empire :)

Plus, Kala is far more pro-friends than pro-republic :P
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Vincent Pryce on 16 Jun 2013, 14:32
Btw in the current state of the proxy I have yet to see the Ammatar or Khanid navies. Their "levies" have not been raised for the Ammatar, and the mutual protection pact with the Khanid has not been put into the equation (yet) for now.
In both cases, as Makkal pointed, I suspect that's because the Empire and Republic are technically not at war, so the treaty doesn't come into play.  This would be reinforced by the fact that TLF pilots don't get aggro from Khanid navy forces in the Kingdom.

Hence my wonderfully high Khanid navy standing :3

Which I've always found very lol with kala being pro-republic.

Kala is pro-republic, but also pro-Reppywen.

The latter comes with Khanid standings as a side effect. :P

To be fair, Kala has always had a soft spot for the Khanid. She respects those who show defiance in the face of the Empire :)

Plus, Kala is far more pro-friends than pro-republic :P

Still, she preaches antislavery and yet has during that time flown the banner of the one of the most vicious slavers navy, makes her a hypocritical slag in Vince's eyes. Something which he finds much joy in.  8)

EDIT: le grammar
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: kalaratiri on 16 Jun 2013, 14:39
Btw in the current state of the proxy I have yet to see the Ammatar or Khanid navies. Their "levies" have not been raised for the Ammatar, and the mutual protection pact with the Khanid has not been put into the equation (yet) for now.
In both cases, as Makkal pointed, I suspect that's because the Empire and Republic are technically not at war, so the treaty doesn't come into play.  This would be reinforced by the fact that TLF pilots don't get aggro from Khanid navy forces in the Kingdom.

Hence my wonderfully high Khanid navy standing :3

Which I've always found very lol with kala being pro-republic.

Kala is pro-republic, but also pro-Reppywen.

The latter comes with Khanid standings as a side effect. :P

To be fair, Kala has always had a soft spot for the Khanid. She respects those who show defiance in the face of the Empire :)

Plus, Kala is far more pro-friends than pro-republic :P

Still, she preaches antislavery and yet has during that time flown the banner of the one of the most vicious slavers navy, makes him a hypocritical slag in Vince's eyes. Something which he finds much joy in.  8)

^_-

She only took missions against Blood Raiders and Sansha, still, I see your point. Isn't it fun :3
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Vincent Pryce on 16 Jun 2013, 14:49
Btw in the current state of the proxy I have yet to see the Ammatar or Khanid navies. Their "levies" have not been raised for the Ammatar, and the mutual protection pact with the Khanid has not been put into the equation (yet) for now.
In both cases, as Makkal pointed, I suspect that's because the Empire and Republic are technically not at war, so the treaty doesn't come into play.  This would be reinforced by the fact that TLF pilots don't get aggro from Khanid navy forces in the Kingdom.

Hence my wonderfully high Khanid navy standing :3

Which I've always found very lol with kala being pro-republic.

Kala is pro-republic, but also pro-Reppywen.

The latter comes with Khanid standings as a side effect. :P

To be fair, Kala has always had a soft spot for the Khanid. She respects those who show defiance in the face of the Empire :)

Plus, Kala is far more pro-friends than pro-republic :P

Still, she preaches antislavery and yet has during that time flown the banner of the one of the most vicious slavers navy, makes him a hypocritical slag in Vince's eyes. Something which he finds much joy in.  8)

^_-

She only took missions against Blood Raiders and Sansha, still, I see your point. Isn't it fun :3

Pyramid for the pyramid god.

'Tis indeed. Looking forward to Kala's eventual return.

PS. Also corrected the grammar in my previous post.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Makkal on 16 Jun 2013, 19:59
I *think* I got all the news links.

I find it odd that the Kingdom essentially disappears from the news after 2010.

If anyone can find Kingdom related Chronicles, missions, or other neat stuff, please post it.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Makkal on 16 Jun 2013, 20:07
We had an awesome AURORA event many years ago where we prevented an ultra-unionist plot to steal an Archon.  We Kingdom Loyalists got to stick it to the dirty Khanid traitors trying to reunify with the Empire :P
Makkal would have just turned 17.

Yeah, she probably has that comic too.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Repentence Tyrathlion on 23 Jun 2013, 02:34
So I was reading the official Khanid Kingdom chronicle, and something interesting occurred to me.

Quote
Other features, such as the importance of religion and slavery, are also very much alike in the two states. In fact, the kingdom takes slavery even further than the empire. The Amarr Empire uses almost exclusively Minmatar and Ealur slaves, but the kingdom, denied many of their traditional slave sources, take slaves wherever they can find them. Khanid himself has a Gallentean - a former pop-star - as his personal slave, something he finds highly amusing but makes the Gallenteans frothing at their mouths.

Here's the thing.  The Kingdom quite willingly takes slaves from just about any source - which would quite often mean criminals, either independent or the Cartel, I would imagine - and have no qualms about different bloodlines.  Truth be told, I find the line about most Empire slaves being Ealur or Matari a little odd, but that's another story.

It's also established that the Kingdom is an insidious bastard when it comes to slave control.  Vitoxin, of course, but they also use TCMCs (on the quiet).  Vitoxin is one thing - it's a chemical slave chain, but it doesn't affect the victim's mind (directly, anyway).  TCMCs, however, a literal brainwashing tool.

So how does one take this ruthless, mercenary approach... and at same time have the kind of religious foundations that the Empire has?  Don't forget, in the Empire, slavery is meant to be a religious activity, to educate the barbarian in the ways of enlightenment.  Only the most secular Amarrian would ever consider the use of TCMCs on their slaves.

The rationalisation that I've used is that the Kingdom's religious nature is a sham.  Certainly there are plenty of believers there, but fundamentally, it's used as a shield, both to keep in the Empire's good books and to allow them to point fingers at their neighbour if shit goes wrong.  The Kingdom (probably through a hefty dose of Caldari influence) has become an increasingly secular place.

What's your take on this?
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Lyn Farel on 23 Jun 2013, 02:47
Of course it is a sham. Not totally since we still see Khanid Zealots and other illuminated Khanids.

But it is no wonder that Khanid's law takes precedence over God's law.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Samira Kernher on 23 Jun 2013, 02:49
So I was reading the official Khanid Kingdom chronicle, and something interesting occurred to me.

Quote
Other features, such as the importance of religion and slavery, are also very much alike in the two states. In fact, the kingdom takes slavery even further than the empire. The Amarr Empire uses almost exclusively Minmatar and Ealur slaves, but the kingdom, denied many of their traditional slave sources, take slaves wherever they can find them. Khanid himself has a Gallentean - a former pop-star - as his personal slave, something he finds highly amusing but makes the Gallenteans frothing at their mouths.

Here's the thing.  The Kingdom quite willingly takes slaves from just about any source - which would quite often mean criminals, either independent or the Cartel, I would imagine - and have no qualms about different bloodlines.  Truth be told, I find the line about most Empire slaves being Ealur or Matari a little odd, but that's another story.

It's also established that the Kingdom is an insidious bastard when it comes to slave control.  Vitoxin, of course, but they also use TCMCs (on the quiet).  Vitoxin is one thing - it's a chemical slave chain, but it doesn't affect the victim's mind (directly, anyway).  TCMCs, however, a literal brainwashing tool.

So how does one take this ruthless, mercenary approach... and at same time have the kind of religious foundations that the Empire has?  Don't forget, in the Empire, slavery is meant to be a religious activity, to educate the barbarian in the ways of enlightenment.  Only the most secular Amarrian would ever consider the use of TCMCs on their slaves.

The rationalisation that I've used is that the Kingdom's religious nature is a sham.  Certainly there are plenty of believers there, but fundamentally, it's used as a shield, both to keep in the Empire's good books and to allow them to point fingers at their neighbour if shit goes wrong.  The Kingdom (probably through a hefty dose of Caldari influence) has become an increasingly secular place.

What's your take on this?

Remember that there are multiple interpretations of the faith. The earliest and most original conservative belief is that the Amarr are God's Chosen and, as Chosen, have a God-given right to control everyone else.

This is the viewpoint the Khanid hold. It is less about providing the slaves spiritual education, and more about the fact that they are Amarr and therefore have a God-given right to own slaves.

"Instead, the Kingdom tends to take a relatively simplistic view that, as Amarr, they are superior to other races and thus have the God-given right to enslave them as they see fit. Outsiders see little difference between the Kingdom and the Empire in this regard, believing that the Kingdom is merely more honest about things. This has led to lingering tensions between the two Amarr nations, however, even as the two have grown closer in recent years."

- Khanid Justifications, Slavery article, EVElopedia (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery#Justifications)

So yeah. They're very secular despite the religious demeanor (the article outright calls it lip service). All a bunch of heretics and apostates, really. We need to give the Kingdom to House Ardishapur, just like the Mandate. We'll teach you the proper way of things!
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Makkal on 23 Jun 2013, 12:13
As I understand it, there's no theology council and each Holder, being spiritually superior to those around them, gets to interpret the Scriptures as they desire. Given the Scriptures are a living document, they can probably pick and choose which scriptures are important and which can be ignored.

As long as you don't piss off other people in power, you can probably have your own personalized version of Faith... that said:

The rationalisation that I've used is that the Kingdom's religious nature is a sham.
Of course it is a sham. Not totally since we still see Khanid Zealots and other illuminated Khanids.

I think sham is a rather poor word here.

The People's Temple Agricultural Project was a 'sham' but when Jim Jones ordered his followers to commit suicide, 907 people ended up dying from drinking poisoned kool-aid.

Do the people at the top manipulate beliefs for their own goals and profits? Sure, a number of them do. But that's going to be just as true in the Kingdom as it is in the Empire or State or Federation. And for every belief, there are going to be ardent followers, people who are just doing what everyone else does, and people who are questioning what's going on.

I think what you're seeing is simply cultural: The Khanid value religion but they prioritize it differently.

It's like being in a small, Southern town vs being in a small, West Coast town. The West Coast town will have fewer believers and their attitude toward the church is going to be different. That doesn't mean West Coast churches are corrupt or their version of Christianity is a sham.

If anything, an area where the religion is paramount is more prone to abuses. Those in religious positions have more social power and can get away with a great deal more. 
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 23 Jun 2013, 12:49
We need to give the Kingdom to House Ardishapur, just like the Mandate. We'll teach you the proper way of things!

Khanid II would snap Ardishapur in half like a twig.   


:P
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Lyn Farel on 23 Jun 2013, 16:49
As I understand it, there's no theology council and each Holder, being spiritually superior to those around them, gets to interpret the Scriptures as they desire. Given the Scriptures are a living document, they can probably pick and choose which scriptures are important and which can be ignored.

As long as you don't piss off other people in power, you can probably have your own personalized version of Faith... that said:

The rationalisation that I've used is that the Kingdom's religious nature is a sham.
Of course it is a sham. Not totally since we still see Khanid Zealots and other illuminated Khanids.

I think sham is a rather poor word here.

The People's Temple Agricultural Project was a 'sham' but when Jim Jones ordered his followers to commit suicide, 907 people ended up dying from drinking poisoned kool-aid.

Do the people at the top manipulate beliefs for their own goals and profits? Sure, a number of them do. But that's going to be just as true in the Kingdom as it is in the Empire or State or Federation. And for every belief, there are going to be ardent followers, people who are just doing what everyone else does, and people who are questioning what's going on.

I think what you're seeing is simply cultural: The Khanid value religion but they prioritize it differently.

It's like being in a small, Southern town vs being in a small, West Coast town. The West Coast town will have fewer believers and their attitude toward the church is going to be different. That doesn't mean West Coast churches are corrupt or their version of Christianity is a sham.

If anything, an area where the religion is paramount is more prone to abuses. Those in religious positions have more social power and can get away with a great deal more.

Oh I agree. It was more that I did not find any better word for it. It can be considered a sham by outsiders, especially imperials, nothing more.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Makkal on 23 Jun 2013, 19:14
Oh yes, I agree then. :)
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Kazuma Ry on 28 Jul 2013, 11:47
As for the Kingdom following it's own guidelines for the Scriptures, they are also the only place that (The Cult of Tetrimon (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Cult_of_Tetrimon_(Chronicle)) found safety when they were outlawed in the Empire.

This could also have helped for the Khanid into the ruthless Slavers due to having this influence to the orginal scriptures before the corruption from previous Emperours.

But this topic has made me want to move out of Empire space and into Khanid space.....
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Kazuma Ry on 28 Jul 2013, 11:49
Also, just wondering if there was a Khanid RP channel that gets some regular use?
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Repentence Tyrathlion on 29 Jul 2013, 04:50
Not that I've heard of.  We're a somewhat rare breed.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 29 Jul 2013, 08:37
*sings a silent song of dispair for "Khanidpublic" , long since dead and empty :(
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Kazuma Ry on 29 Jul 2013, 14:10
*sings a silent song of dispair for "Khanidpublic" , long since dead and empty :(

Doh, I forgot about that channel...... I will be having it open on my comm channels as of tonight when I can log on. It shall not be empty, possible dead, but not empty  :cry:
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Arista Shahni on 30 Jul 2013, 00:05
There are very few kingdom Khanids I know of.  OOCly (and ICly) im the only Zealot who occasionally zealotizes (functions openly as a spiritual counselor) for "my sect" that I know of.  I hve no IC way to progress past that point atm.

As it is there is very little "open" Amarr religion as it is as we get shouted down at public mention of the G word, even privately among non-Amarr we get asked odd ass questions (at least I so) that feel awkward to answer at best.

"So what's your opinion on slaves?"
"Is God involved in everything you do?"
"How many "x" have you killed?"
"Have you had sex before?"

It's like a theology council shadow agent every time the questions get asked... ;)
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Repentence Tyrathlion on 30 Jul 2013, 01:02
There are very few kingdom Khanids I know of.  OOCly (and ICly) im the only Zealot who occasionally zealotizes (functions openly as a spiritual counselor) for "my sect" that I know of.  I hve no IC way to progress past that point atm.

As it is there is very little "open" Amarr religion as it is as we get shouted down at public mention of the G word, even privately among non-Amarr we get asked odd ass questions (at least I so) that feel awkward to answer at best.

"So what's your opinion on slaves?"
"Is God involved in everything you do?"
"How many "x" have you killed?"
"Have you had sex before?"

It's like a theology council shadow agent every time the questions get asked... ;)

Never faced those questions myself - but then, Reppy's not exactly quiet about her opinions at times.

Except for a few, cos heresy.

At this point, I think TYRIN is the only 'Khanid' corporation, and seeing as only the CEO has any real loyalties to the place, that's not saying much.  Kind of sad.

Of course, IC Reppy's not complaining about this fact, because it makes it easier for everyone to ignore the Kingdom.  Carry on folks, nothing highly unethical going on here...
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Steffanie Saissore on 30 Jul 2013, 09:10
Now I'm kind of intrigued about the whole Kingdom...

Just kidding. But I understand some of the frustration that being a religious character can be just based on my on real-life experience. This is why I am very quiet about my faith in real-life as well as Steff's faith in game. That said, I think the majority of the Empire and the Kingdom would frown upon her approach to faith.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Nicoletta Mithra on 30 Jul 2013, 10:11
I don't know, but Nico is quite open about her religion and faith. I also don't see how those quest questions, which seemingly inevitably arise, I agree, are odd ass and feel awkward to answer. The Khanid should feel even less awkward, as they really don't have to fear TC scrutiny. All in all, the Kingdom is less about religion than the Empire, anyways.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Kazuma Ry on 30 Jul 2013, 10:55
I have been RPing Kazuma as a Chaplain of sorts since my days in the the Knighthood, and when I would try to preach, I never had people be negative towards it (granted I was preachy in Amarr loyalist channels usually).

I haven't shied away from the fact that Kazuma is a Khanid Holder, slave owner, enlightener, and from corp history a Sarumite (also just from my corp history, they might think he is a closet Blooder due to some of the ties that Ebon Seraph and Dark Seraph once had (I am not, but can't say that if I went Pirate, I wouldn't go that route)).

I have always enjoyed the fact being a Khanid that my enslavement options are wider then if I was a traditional Amarrian, and the means that I can use are wider also. Although in all RP sessions, I have tried to RP the use of enlightenment as a way to control my slave (and possible vitoc), I haven't gone much down the road of implants to change the brain.

The Khanid should feel even less awkward, as they really don't have to fear TC scrutiny. All in all, the Kingdom is less about religion than the Empire, anyways.

Nico,

I always saw the Kingdom as being able to be more religious then the Empire, since we had the Zealots and Cyber Knights as a background choice. I just got the impression that since King Khanid allowed the Cult of Tetrimon stay in the kingdom without being oppressed, it meant we had a purier orginal view of the religion (with the whole enslave the lesser races, bring them closer to god, work them to death if they don't want to embrace God).

Guess that is my take on it.

~ Kazuma
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Nicoletta Mithra on 30 Jul 2013, 15:06
Don't get me wrong, people in the Kingdom can be religious. Also, Kahnids, as in ethnic Khanids, tend - as PF indicates - to be more fanatic if they put a stake in religious practice than Amarr. Fanatism doesn't translate to being 'more religious', though, in my opinion. Also, the Zealot and Cyber Knight ancestries are open to ethnic Khanids of imperial origin as much as to those hailing from the Kingdom.

I think King Khanid just allowed the Tetrimon to stay because they were a thorn in the Empire's side, not because he was particularly interested in their religious view. Most people in the Kingdom probably pay as much heed to the Tetrimonic cult as to the Theology council. ("It [the Order of St. Tetrimon] managed to remain active in the Khanid Kingdom, where Khanid II allowed it to remain legal for political reasons." - EVElopedia, Order of St. Tetrimon (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Order_of_St._Tetrimon), emphasis added by me.)

As to the 'purer' view of religion, PF states explicity that Khanid don't see an need for particularly religious justifications of slavery: "Instead, the Kingdom tends to take a relatively simplistic view that, as Amarr, they are superior to other races and thus have the God-given right to enslave them as they see fit." That smells like simple racism to me. This is supported by the fact, that few slaves are ever released in the Kingdom and even most clerics pay only lip service to the idea of enlightening slaves. (see: EVElopedia, Slavery: Khanid Kingdom - Justifications (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery#Justifications))

It is also school knowledge in the Empire that King Khanid founded his kingdom on the premise that his law is more important than God's law. This is supported by PF about the Kingdom: "Additionally, as there is no Theology Council or centralized religious authority in the Kingdom aside from the King, the Kingdom Holders assume many of the duties undertaken by the priesthood in the Empire." (see: EVElopedia, Khanid II (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_II))

I feel quite secure in stating that religion is in the Kingdom less of a public and more of a personal matter than in the Empire, for sure.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom
Post by: Kazuma Ry on 30 Jul 2013, 15:34
I see your point, and while I can see the religion in the Kingdom is more personal, the personal side might be just the Holder, and how he / she enforces their religious views upon their subjects and slaves.