Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Andreus Ixiris on 19 Nov 2010, 14:18
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It's a really good idea. No, really, it is.
But things like this (http://www.arcadianewsnetwork.net/?p=402) are not going to end well, because of things like this (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1416630&page=1#24) - and I say this as a supporter of the Intaki seccessionalist movement. It's a shame, because the penmanship for all these articles is really good and it reads like an actual, professional news agency (and to be quite honest Mercury should be looking into employing the people who run it). But as it stands, these articles are from a non-canon source, and you're never going to get anyone who disagrees with the implications of an article to accept it as canon, and, for better or for worse, they are entirely right.
Hussain's far from diplomatic or tactful vis a vis the way he puts it, but he is, fundamentally, right - while everyone writes at least some personal fiction regarding their character or the universe around them, there is a limit to what we can simply assume is canon.
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There was some debate that went on before that article was written for the very reasons that you state here.
The fact that Levi, during his initial time with an Eve account, was a member of the ILF and that he and I still maintain out-of-game contact also weighs on his decisions of what stories to write.
Initially the idea of writing about the Assembly directly was out of the question, with the pieces focusing more on the surrounding colonies and adding little insights into Intaki society. That idea evolved after this
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1412864 was posted on IGS.
We don't know the author of that piece, but the debate became if someone else is writing about it, why not have Levi do it, too.
If you've read Levi's piece, you'll note that it says a lot but doesn't actually do anything. Right now a measure is being heard by a committee in the Assembly (and since the Assembly as we envision it is bicameral the committee most likely has a counterpart that would have to take up a similar measure to actually have anything happen.)
Add to that the fact that the chairman of the committee comes from Kapda, which in our fiction is Gallente leaning, there is little hope for secessionists that the hearing is anything more than a pretense. The article also indicates that support for secession is neither overwhelming or widespread.
Ultimately, we expected the article would upset some people, no matter how it was presented. It wasn't so much a question of if, but a matter of who. That it was Hussain is not surprising, although I owe a few people some isk since my money was on Jules.
I'll pass on the compliment to Levi, he and I went through the same Journalism program, and he'll be pleased to know his pieces read like something from "an actual, professional news agency."
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I have both written for and continue to enjoy reading ANN. Levi's articles have been absolutely top-notch stuff.
The issue here is obviously the discomfort people are going to have reading fan fiction that makes assumptions about prime fiction that cannot be confirmed. IMO, the level of support from CCP for broad and dynamic prime fiction does not match the potential of the setting. When I see players, like Saxon and Levi, taking the initiative and creating deeper "real-time" fiction in such a high quality way, I want to absorb it and make it part of how I imagine New Eden.
There is a fine line, however, in terms of how much liberty a non-canonical piece takes with the setting. Once it's crossed, no matter by how little a distance, the entire thing is simply unbelievable. Everyone is going to draw that line in a different place, but the easiest way to cross it for almost everybody is to portray canonical actors or forces doing something that there is no observable evidence for in-game. Another way to do it is to RP a genuine Mary Sue.
If I wrote a news article about Jacus Roden's zany golfing trips, it might be funny but it would certainly cross the line of believability for almost everyone and be ignored. Same goes for claiming the Ishukone Watch came in last in the Haadoken Summit because of an errant banana peel left on the arena floor or any such canon-breaking assumptions taken in fan fiction. The rule also extends to elements of the prime fiction that are not currently fleshed out but are likely to be developed in the future.
Everything else--and New Eden has a lot of room for "everything else" outside of what we get in the trickle of PF news and events--is fair game (until some intrepid but blind writer with the golden halo of "CCP" before his screen name swoops in from nowhere and stomps it to bits).
The best comparison I can make of this situation is to the Star Wars films (the original three which are like Herko Kerghans and the prequels which are like TonyG) and the Star Wars Expanded Universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Expanded_Universe). While Expanded Universe is generally considered canonical, the point I'm making with it is one of scale. There was a lot of juicy material in the six Star Wars films, and alone they certainly flesh out a rather broad fictional universe, but in the Expanded setting you get orders of magnitude more. Within EVE, players are best positioned to provide the equivalent "Expanded" material by their in-game actions, roleplay, and fan fiction.
you're never going to get anyone who disagrees with the implications of an article to accept it as canon
No, you will get some people, and if you're inclined to accept an expanded view of New Eden that incorporates some or a lot of the non-canonical fan material, those are the one's you'll get to play with you. The rest will probably ignore it or complain about it for a while and then ignore it. Some will write you off, but most will still be willing to RP with you within strictly canonical terms.
But like I said to Simon Coal a few weeks back in our conversation about the Intaki calendar and holiday cycle Saxon wrote up, if the fan material is so well done, why wouldn't you want to play along?
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Am both flattered and surprised that people read ANN.
In terms of publishing, I just proof-read the articles, and make sure they end up in the right place. I sometimes promote them too, but don't often find the time.
I had no Idea that this kind of thing might be an issue. I have to admit, that upon re-reading the article in context, I can see why it'd be an issue. However, unless it actually *goes somewhere* I don't feel that there's a problem. If Levi submitted an article to me on how the Intaki had officially seceded from the federation, and there was nothing IG/Etc. to back it up, I'd have to reject it (with sadness, I might add, his articles are always excellent)
I also had an amusing shameless plug image around, but I seem to have lost it, so we'll have to do without: I would really love to see more people submitting articles/offering to help with publishing/editing. As it stands, I only have 2 regular writers, and I admin the site on my own. Would be brilliant if I could scale things up.
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Am both flattered and surprised that people read ANN.
That.
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Am both flattered and surprised that people read ANN.
In terms of publishing, I just proof-read the articles, and make sure they end up in the right place. I sometimes promote them too, but don't often find the time.
I had no Idea that this kind of thing might be an issue. I have to admit, that upon re-reading the article in context, I can see why it'd be an issue. However, unless it actually *goes somewhere* I don't feel that there's a problem. If Levi submitted an article to me on how the Intaki had officially seceded from the federation, and there was nothing IG/Etc. to back it up, I'd have to reject it (with sadness, I might add, his articles are always excellent)
I also had an amusing shameless plug image around, but I seem to have lost it, so we'll have to do without: I would really love to see more people submitting articles/offering to help with publishing/editing. As it stands, I only have 2 regular writers, and I admin the site on my own. Would be brilliant if I could scale things up.
Outsiders can submit news articles?
I am so totally bookmarking this place now.
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I subscribe but tend to skip over the sports articles. Hmm, sounds like my local paper... ^_^
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I still don't know who the player behind Alain Octirant is, but I'd just like to note here that in one line he masterfully deflected the article that spawned this thread.
To quote his response to the link to Levi's article: "How many assembly members can the ILF buy? Not enough, I'll wager."
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you role play.
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I agree.
I understand Andreus' concerns, but Octirant's reply was gold. There is a sense of actually having some fun with the material. Both sides of the debate seem to be aware of the lines and are keen just to create some good story. It's a massive grey area, though and pretty much relies on a 'gentlemen's agreement' not to try and 'win'.
Hussain doesn't really understand that, more's the pity.
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But like I said to Simon Coal a few weeks back in our conversation about the Intaki calendar and holiday cycle Saxon wrote up, if the fan material is so well done, why wouldn't you want to play along?
My response to that stands, by the way :yar:
In any case, I think everyone is handling the current issue fairly well. I've got a 'lies, damned lies and statistics' response in reserve in case anything too crazy gets put out there and I'm otherwise comfortable with how things are going. At some point, I need to formalize my version of how the Assembly and such works, that way Saxon and I can fight about it!
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It seems that this has spilled over into GD (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1417888), and Hussein has resorted to attacks against me *and* my site.
How Novel.
Edit: His post (http://eve-search.com/thread/1417888#8)appears to have gotten the modstick.
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I always feel a little dumb when I read these argumentative posts and I can't honestly tell what's being argued... -_-;;;
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I've seen a draft Levi's follow up article:
spoiler alert: Nothing happens. The bill gets tabled again.
It should be on the ANN site soon. Apparently, the ILF's pockets are not deep enough to buy politicians. We must just rent them.
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Well, I guess Hussein did more good than harm :D
I just got a mail from CCP. Apparently they spotted the ANN link in GD, and want to get ANN listed as an official fansite.
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That's awesome, Milo! Now they just need to syndicate ANN columns on the EVE news wire. I'm tired of only getting the mainstream perspective from my PF sources! :yar:
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Well, I guess Hussein did more good than harm :D
I just got a mail from CCP. Apparently they spotted the ANN link in GD, and want to get ANN listed as an official fansite.
Whaaaat, that's awesome! :D
Way to go, bossman.
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Have to say, after this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1418776 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1418776)
If this is going to be the way the game is played, I don't think anyone can complain if we respond in kind.
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/me loves it.
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I prefer news articles that give multiple sides things to chew on/clamp onto/hit the other side for.
However, as seen, one-sided articles can be used against the author/entity it supports, as well >:9.
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Hmmmm....
Getting ANN to become an official fansite is good...this would imply that fan-made news items would be 'accepted' by CCP.
Prior to that, however, I would [have] concurred that the Intaki Assembly putting in a secession bill is definitely a very dangerous thing to do. The precedent of it, even if it wasn't to pass through, involve a major in-universe AND major in-game change. Compare that to Aicar's article, which just drags up a bunch of random, invented NPCs and slaps their opinions as headline.
Withholding anything regarding fictional quality, I would have to agree that the article is going too far in terms of taking PF liberties; considering the storyline of secession was brought up by CCP, it is definitely something THEY would be storywriting about. Not to mention the PF element of blahblahblah, Intaki secession is minority view blahblah etc. all the same before.
HOWEVER, my personal response is to "ignore" that news article. Not even disprove it IC, hell no, just not even address it IC, or acknowledge it. This prevents getting into the whole godmodding the godmod or whatever sticky business that happens. Basically, that's my opinion, but I won't be enforcing that OOC opinion in an IC fashion, because that hurts RP.
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Seri, first of all, the article never said the Assembly took up the bill. One politician tried to propose it and it died in subcommitee -- no precedent whatsoever.
Also, "official" fansite status doesn't mean that the writing there is canonical in any way. Just means that CCP thinks it doesn't suck. :)
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I seem to recall a gigantic fuss followed by an equally gigantic thread about whether or not it was alright for players to take control of IG forces or otherwise slightly manipulate canon characters/groups for the sake of interesting PF, so long as one didn't overstretch their reach...
I can't remember how it ended. >>
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I seem to recall a gigantic fuss followed by an equally gigantic thread about whether or not it was alright for players to take control of IG forces or otherwise slightly manipulate canon characters/groups for the sake of interesting PF, so long as one didn't overstretch their reach...
I can't remember how it ended. >>
It ends the way things usually end when someone jumps up and down making a fuss about how things could potentially go badly and nobody listens. someone ultimately decides to become the very disruption they warned about, to "demonstrate the dangers of letting it go too far".
I mean I certainly hope it isn't that anyone takes their internet spaceships so seriously they engage in hypocrisy to win pretend internet spaceship forum arguments.
I find delicious irony in the fact this has done more to damage the Scope's credibility than anything else (a canon entity which makes it even more potentially dangerous to wield as a prop than a made up one).
Ultimately this is a self-correcting issue, as I tried to express in other discussions the community at large ultimately has control, not one person wielding props. If something goes too far out of bounds for believability, it gets widely rejected IC as "typical GalNet posturing with no substance." If public belief about the state of things at some point is found to be contradictory to reality because of some official plot development, well that happens in real life, too.
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I think the general rule should be...
Something that will be developed on by CCP - Do not touch
Something that will NEVER be touched by CCP - RP/fictionalize away.
I think it's a fair rule.
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Something that will NEVER be touched by CCP - RP/fictionalize away.
Sooooo- most of the storyline?
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I think the general rule should be...
Something that will be developed on by CCP - Do not touch
Something that will NEVER be touched by CCP - RP/fictionalize away.
I think it's a fair rule.
I have my own general rules
Something that you enjoy doing, participate in
Something you won't enjoy doing, avoid
What someone else is doing, don't worry about
I think there's also a world of difference between in-depth articles adding to the EVE tapestry with care and showing multiple viewpoints and the current display of using a canonical entity to make it look like a single character has created a nation-wide fuss like Aicar is using The Scope to attack Jules.