Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Synthia on 01 Dec 2013, 06:22
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Several threads on the IGS at the moment, relating to capsuleers use of personal weapons, martial arts skills and such, when out of the capsule. As ever, some are enthusiastically for, some are enthusiastically against.
A thought occurred, relating to the use of humanoid remote drones and why these aren't in use by capsuleers.
I believe the technology exists - there are in existence comprehensive virtual reality devices, capable of simulating to the user a convincing set of sensations - the chronicle "Particle Tracks" (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Particle_Tracks_(Chronicle)) features this in the meeting between Yani and Muryia.
These virtual reality devices are capable of presenting a substantial amount of sensory data to the user, who is presumably wearing a suit with goggles, or relevant implants, to receive this data.
And that suit&goggles or implant set, could easily, in my opinion, be used to present to the user, sensory data, not from a virtual reality simulation, but from a remote-operated drone humanoid body.
And such a remote body, would be able to interact with people "personally", with next to none of the security concerns.
So, why does this not happen ?
I think a possibility is the ability of law enforcement to control the situation - a remote drone person is entirely expendable, and as such, could easily be a weapon, carrying a bomb, or bio-weapon, or other device. Capsuleers have no hesitation in attacking things in space, giving them the same freedom in station would be chaotic.
What are your thoughts ?
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A capsuleer can control the massive amounts of information pouring into their brain when linked to a ship. Using a remote drone/cyborg shell remotely via an FTL router seems rather mundane by comparison.
Just need to make sure it's anatomically correct I suppose.
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would explain why everyone is the same height, in Incarna.
maybe it is law enforcement, stop impersonation of people or something.
but maybe people don't want to be robots, or something.
also DUST. if remote humanoid drones were possible/economic, then why is there a need for DUST ?
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would explain why everyone is the same height, in Incarna.
maybe it is law enforcement, stop impersonation of people or something.
but maybe people don't want to be robots, or something.
also DUST. if remote humanoid drones were possible/economic, then why is there a need for DUST ?
Is this why our Incarna avatars are so stiff?
Also, I like to ask, can capsuleer implants be used to interface with something that isn't a ship? as in connecting with something that isn't a ship with the intention of moving it with your brain?
I had it that Elmund Egivand had modified his engineering suit to include this backpack spindly mechanical arms connected to power tools, which he controls with his nervous system, reasoning that being able to unleash ship-grade ordnance with great precision at somebody, it would be trivial to control multiple mechanical limbs simultaneously.
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Also, I like to ask, can capsuleer implants be used to interface with something that isn't a ship? as in connecting with something that isn't a ship with the intention of moving it with your brain?
I just read the chronicle for the fight of Caldari Prime, and there were two capsuleers in it on the ground who plugged into the guns shooting up at the titan from the planet. They didn't need anything like a pod, just a connector cable.
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Feels like there's a Gutter Press splash in the offing :D
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I think most baseliner security apparatus would have a pretty hard 'no' against any sort of remote controlled avatars. Avatars running amok and blowing up things/people/causing a ruckus would be entirely too easy.
You could probably get away with something of this sort out in the desert on some lowsec or null planet, but it seems very 'special snowflake' to me, although an interesting concept.
I feel like a capsuleer would much easier just have a team of their hired baseliners out doing things all hooked up to sensors and telepresense for the capsuleer to monitor or project a holo of themselves to interact with people remotely if needed.
(http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/1866/vaderhologram.jpg)
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Is that Silas on the picture ?
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Is that Silas on the picture ?
:P
Actually that wasn't my intent linking the picture but this is basically how shit gets done on her capsuleer ships.
Sabik crew #2053 distracted eating cheetos and not monitoring the megapulse laser power coupling gets a rude awakening from the nearby holo-projector :P
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Is that Silas on the picture ?
:P
Actually that wasn't my intent linking the picture but this is basically how shit gets done on her capsuleer ships.
Sabik crew #2053 distracted eating cheetos and not monitoring the megapulse laser power coupling gets a rude awakening from the nearby holo-projector :P
The advantage of letting weak AI drones handle menial monitoring and maintenance work.
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Having the skills or experience is entirely reasonable, particularly given the number of capsuleers with military backgrounds.
Subsequent use of those skills? Eh, depends on the situation and how frequent. It's arguable that if you're frequently finding yourself in the situation where those skills are needed, you (or the people who should be doing your security) are doing something seriously wrong. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with casual or even regimented use of those skills for the purposes of exercise or a hobby.
It's one thing to go to the shooting range a few times a week to keep your skills sharp. It's another to be going Rambo on every motherfucker you run into while baselining.
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Having the skills or experience is entirely reasonable, particularly given the number of capsuleers with military backgrounds.
Subsequent use of those skills? Eh, depends on the situation and how frequent. It's arguable that if you're frequently finding yourself in the situation where those skills are needed, you (or the people who should be doing your security) are doing something seriously wrong. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with casual or even regimented use of those skills for the purposes of exercise or a hobby.
It's one thing to go to the shooting range a few times a week to keep your skills sharp. It's another to be going Rambo on every motherfucker you run into while baselining.
Elmund goes baselining for spare parts, salvage and coffee. Do those count?
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I think that capsuleers being cowards that won't leave their ships or security is a sort of cultural phenomenon, but certain capsuleers can buck the trend. Plenty were soldiers before and some didn't make a name for themselves flying ships. Both of my characters are better known for things done outside of the capsule. While Constantin directly avoids conflict and thus doesn't do much hand-to-hand and Roman doesn't have any skills like that, I can see someone who enjoys bar fights, ring fighting, or even still does a lot of personal combat just because they get bored of the capsule.
I think they'd be rather unusual, but not entirely rare.
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Elmund goes baselining for spare parts, salvage and coffee. Do those count?
Unless he's one of those people who are retarded stupid fucked in the head special enough to do their Black Friday shopping in the stores instead of online, I fail to see how that's even relevant.
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It feels almost special snowflaky to play someone who is not trained in martial arts...
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Elmund goes baselining for spare parts, salvage and coffee. Do those count?
Unless he's one of those people who are retarded stupid fucked in the head special enough to do their Black Friday shopping in the stores instead of online, I fail to see how that's even relevant.
He is special enough to actually shop for stuff in the same place baseline shipyard workers, gearheads, machinists and other assorted sprocket-loving monkeys do their shopping, even on the setting equivalent of Black Friday.
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Elmund goes baselining for spare parts, salvage and coffee. Do those count?
Unless he's one of those people who are retarded stupid fucked in the head special enough to do their Black Friday shopping in the stores instead of online, I fail to see how that's even relevant.
Can't resist.
(http://a0.typepad.com/6a01761762a570970c019b01e1ccc8970d-500wi)
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For what its worth I tend to play Aellos as what I would imagine is a fairly standard capsuleer with occasional veering into the gun nut side of things: He can take care of himself whilst baselining: martial arts, firearms and basic melee weapon training (although that one is probably more of a hobby/fitness thing for him than necessarily common amongst all capsuleers but I imagine you might see it more in Amarrian capsuleers than say Caldari): he could take a baseliner who tried to mug him in a back alley to pieces owing to a capsuleer's sharpened reflexes and heightened perception but unless he got lucky would lose to a DUSTer and might well be evenly matched against even a baseliner soldier trained in CQC.
That said Aellos is definitely more of the opinion that if it's anything more serious than a bar brawl or boxing match your opponent should be dead before they know they're under attack: fights are chaotic and even the best soldier can make a mistake so better to have it finished before it's started, he's also definitely more on the Baselining side than the always in capsule type.
Part of this I should imagine is that *yes* Aellos can take on a baseliner one on one with no difficulty, maybe as many as three if they don't know how to fight together but even ten street toughs are going to wear him down by sheer force of numbers even if they're not that good at fighting.
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Maybe it's just different with guns for me. I don't know a lot of people who have never fired a gun before in their lives. I'm assuming that since most capsuleers have some kind of military background, firearms training isn't an option, it's a requirement. Even if not, given how dystopian EVE is, I can't imagine a lot of people would be totally unfamiliar with them.
Martial arts may be a bit of a specialized subject, but I imagine a lot of Amarr have some egalitarian bladed combat styles learned, most Matari have a tribal fighting style, and there are subcultures where it's an important part of culture in other empires. Even capsuleers get into brawls at bars.
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Post-Heth, don't most Caldari have some sort of mandatory military training? I'm not sure the State necessarily imposes mandatory enlistment terms (need to reread TEA, and I will never, ever do that), but I wouldn't be surprised if different megas do have some sort of 'militia' element, in addition to basic drill during education/upbringing. I'm not sure there's any equivalent for Minnie, Gallente, or Amarr-- though I'm sure that most Amarr capsuleers are noble or wealthy, which implies either only ceremonial use of arms or none at all.
That said, with skills being loleasy for the first few levels, it'd be easy to see, say, 'security connections' including engrams for basic military drill. But yeah. Meh. I think there's an automatic assumption of Capsuleer = badass = guns, lots of guns a la Keanu Reeves.
A nifty idea: what about additional paranoia about baselining? Even with softclones, capsuleers exist in a world where suicide ganking is not only possible, but a frequent happening, a profession. Translate this to real life-- where if you're walking down a busy street, someone catching a glimpse of your wallet or shirt may go, "WORTH IT," and shoot you in full sight of the police.
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Other than "baseline military training" which is rusty as fuck (which fortunately will not matter as it's hard to pull an aging hamstring in a young clone) Ari very loudly protests that she will not run unless chased, etc.
She's a capsuleer. Getting out of the capsule to baseline seems pointless and backwards after a fashion, same as it does to 100,000+ other pilots who throw their toys out of the pram at Incarna. ;)
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Post-Heth, don't most Caldari have some sort of mandatory military training? I'm not sure the State necessarily imposes mandatory enlistment terms (need to reread TEA, and I will never, ever do that), but I wouldn't be surprised if different megas do have some sort of 'militia' element, in addition to basic drill during education/upbringing.
Pre-Heth too, actually. Compulsory military service was already an existing requirement in the State. You only get out of it if you qualify for something better early on.
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How much of today's violence resolved by 'martial arts skill' and how many by someone being shot?
People don't kung fu fight, they pull out a gun and shoot you. People who have weapons use them, they don't stoop to physical hand to hand when they can blast you with 0 effort.
How much of today's military training is on 'hand to hand' and how much is on using machines?
How often do today's military EVER get into hand to hand fights with knives?
Hand-to-hand = completely useless in EVE unless you are modified and can take shots en route to target.
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How much of today's violence resolved by 'martial arts skill' and how many by someone being shot?
People don't kung fu fight, they pull out a gun and shoot you. People who have weapons use them, they don't stoop to physical hand to hand when they can blast you with 0 effort.
How much of today's military training is on 'hand to hand' and how much is on using machines?
How often do today's military EVER get into hand to hand fights with knives?
Hand-to-hand = completely useless in EVE unless you are modified and can take shots en route to target.
In other words, this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE
:lol:
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How much of today's violence resolved by 'martial arts skill' and how many by someone being shot?
People don't kung fu fight, they pull out a gun and shoot you. People who have weapons use them, they don't stoop to physical hand to hand when they can blast you with 0 effort.
How much of today's military training is on 'hand to hand' and how much is on using machines?
How often do today's military EVER get into hand to hand fights with knives?
Hand-to-hand = completely useless in EVE unless you are modified and can take shots en route to target.
In other words, this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE
:lol:
A classic scene that wasn't originally scripted that way, if you believe everything you read on Cracked. :lol: (I remember something about it being Ford's idea because he was ill and something else about shit-streams and pant stains?)
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I'm with Silas.
People mostly practice martial arts for the hobby or spiritual well being or whatever. Or just the sport contest.
I have seen invoked the reason that "it's to stay in good shape". Then why arent we seeing more capsuleers just using more common (and a lot more effective to that effect) sport practice like jogging, or whatever high tech savyy sport people can imagine ? But instead, nope, just kung-fu variants of capsuleer pandas ?
Maybe it has a become a capsuleer fad, much like other fads they have ?
Maybe it's just different with guns for me. I don't know a lot of people who have never fired a gun before in their lives. I'm assuming that since most capsuleers have some kind of military background, firearms training isn't an option, it's a requirement. Even if not, given how dystopian EVE is, I can't imagine a lot of people would be totally unfamiliar with them.
Martial arts may be a bit of a specialized subject, but I imagine a lot of Amarr have some egalitarian bladed combat styles learned, most Matari have a tribal fighting style, and there are subcultures where it's an important part of culture in other empires. Even capsuleers get into brawls at bars.
Well, yeah, it's different depending where one lives. I don't know anyone that has even fired a gun before and the only guns I have seen in my life are the ones displayed (without any ammo) by the military patrolling in major train stations... But since Eve is dystopian by definition, it might be rather common to see weapons, but again, I would question where ?
I highly doubt that commoners are allowed to carry a lot of personal firearms in the Amarr Empire for example, or even in the Caldari State... I have a hard time to see imperial subjects allowed to be armed, and even less Caldari citizens, except maybe with a reserve weapon locked somewhere for military duty or something... In the Federation, there will of course be all kinds of situations, from far west cowboys to clinical alpha cities where people have never seen a weapon in their life...
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How much of today's violence resolved by 'martial arts skill' and how many by someone being shot?
People don't kung fu fight, they pull out a gun and shoot you. People who have weapons use them, they don't stoop to physical hand to hand when they can blast you with 0 effort.
How much of today's military training is on 'hand to hand' and how much is on using machines?
How often do today's military EVER get into hand to hand fights with knives?
Hand-to-hand = completely useless in EVE unless you are modified and can take shots en route to target.
Combatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combatives)
Knowing how to fight with a blade, grapple, kick, punch, etc is pretty useful if you are concerned about fighting in tight confines. Turning a corner and walking right into a hostile does not give you much time to aim. It may be faster and more effective to throw the butt of the weapon (with your elbow behind it) into the hostile's face.
In close-quarters combat, anything available becomes a weapon.
In Eve, on space stations or in urban cities, the size of spaces will vary as it does today. The highly trained security specialist, infantry, marine, etc will likely have combatives training.
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I have not read the entirety of the article so pardon me if I say something wrong here but I read :
To educate soldiers on how to protect themselves against threats without using their firearms
To provide a non-lethal response to situations on the battlefield
To instill the 'warrior instinct' to provide the necessary aggression to meet the enemy unflinchingly
Which to me is barely applicable to capsuleers... Except maybe the last point. Which kind of joins the only point I find really worth it : that it's more mental discipline before everything else.
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How often do today's military EVER get into hand to hand fights with knives?
I have a friend who's on his second tour in Afghanistan. He's already had to resort to using some sort of fancy tomahawk looking thing in a close quarters fight during a house raid once. The other guy grabbed his rifle as he turned into the hallway from around the corner and came at him, and he had to resolve the situation using the only tool he could reach.
EDIT: On further reading, it was pretty much what orange mentioned.
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I have not read the entirety of the article so pardon me if I say something wrong here but I read :
To educate soldiers on how to protect themselves against threats without using their firearms
To provide a non-lethal response to situations on the battlefield
To instill the 'warrior instinct' to provide the necessary aggression to meet the enemy unflinchingly
Which to me is barely applicable to capsuleers... Except maybe the last point. Which kind of joins the only point I find really worth it : that it's more mental discipline before everything else.
That assumes your capsuleer never leaves the capsule for any reason to do anything. Especially if capsuleers are incredibly competitive and violent, it's not entirely inconceivable that they'd like to punch people every now and then or that combat sports would be their favorite way to stay fit.
I'd also assume that if you've ever done ship-boarding combat, you aren't just skilled in hand-to-hand combat, but you've probably used it. At close ranges, you can't rely on firearms. That's why police officers are almost universally skilled in hand-to-hand combat of some kind or another. You've got more cause to use it.
If anything, Pieter can probably snap arms in half having been a cop for so long.
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Esna's gone trough Imperial Navy basic training (or the equivalent thereof) before he got noticed for capsuleering, and I assumed that as part of the long traditions of the Navy he'd have gone through at least basic hand-to-hand and small arms training - even if the average crewman aboard a starfaring warship is unlikely to ever even see his enemy, let alone fight him face-to-face.
Since becoming a capsuleer, he's grown increasingly fond of being crazy prepared (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrazyPrepared) and as such now carries two sidearms when outside of a secured area: A standard Amarrian laser pistol (probably a scrambler pistol, although the weapon didn't exist when I first laid this out) and a projectile pistol with no electronic components as a backup after an incident in which someone used an EMP to disable his (at that time only) laser pistol.
He still recognizes guards are his best defense, but also feels that as someone who will be likely targeted for various reasons, there is no excuse for not being ready for a situation in which he would have to fight... not to mention he has these silly ideas about certain things that must be done in person.
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Kala lives in her bedroom. All that silly socialising stuff can be done quite easily through computers.
Kat may remember a certain incident in that vein :lol:
What that actually means is that she is terrible at all forms of hand to hand or ballistic combat. People don't have to godmod beating her, because I'll be happily having her lose in dramatic fashion. She can't even hold a gun properly, never mind shoot it. On the other hand, she excels in ship-to-ship combat.
I've always considered Eve a game where your primary actions are space based, so why even bother making your character some ninja badass? It's not like anyone can see them.
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I have not read the entirety of the article so pardon me if I say something wrong here but I read :
To educate soldiers on how to protect themselves against threats without using their firearms
To provide a non-lethal response to situations on the battlefield
To instill the 'warrior instinct' to provide the necessary aggression to meet the enemy unflinchingly
Which to me is barely applicable to capsuleers... Except maybe the last point. Which kind of joins the only point I find really worth it : that it's more mental discipline before everything else.
It was more a response to the idea that close-quarters fighting is no longer taught in modern military training.
If someone claims to have been a soldier in their pre-capsuleer life, they may very well have hand-to-hand combat training.
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I should split my post up a bit:
Just because something isn't practical or realistic doesn't mean it's not good for storytelling purposes.
A crazy Khanid Cyberknight Ghost-in-the-shelling through a group of armed bodyguards with a blade and super-punches might read a lot cooler than them all just being shot with precision from 100 ft away. Depends how these things are used for our purposes.
In a world where some expensive modified people have personal shielding and crazy weapons, you can easily find thematic leeway for more up close and personal confrontations of that variety now and then.
I see this stuff as the exception and not the rule though.
Of course people in the military and security forces sometimes get into hand-to-hand situations. It's the exception and not the rule depending on the sort of work they are doing. Going in and clearing a place out without the intention of using lethal force on everyone in a mile radius means things will be much more difficult.
Going in knowing you are going to kill anything that moves makes it much more unlikely.
Plenty of Japanese soldiers had swords on them in the Pacific; they worked fine on the occasional Banzai charge against Chinese bolt-action rifles, but they were less than successful facing a wall of automatic US rifles.
My point being we can probably make room to separate the 'what -would- happen' from 'what might be a little cooler if it happened' in our own mythmaking.
But yea too many special kung-fu super capsuleers out there.
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I have not read the entirety of the article so pardon me if I say something wrong here but I read :
To educate soldiers on how to protect themselves against threats without using their firearms
To provide a non-lethal response to situations on the battlefield
To instill the 'warrior instinct' to provide the necessary aggression to meet the enemy unflinchingly
Which to me is barely applicable to capsuleers... Except maybe the last point. Which kind of joins the only point I find really worth it : that it's more mental discipline before everything else.
It was more a response to the idea that close-quarters fighting is no longer taught in modern military training.
If someone claims to have been a soldier in their pre-capsuleer life, they may very well have hand-to-hand combat training.
I agree with you that any pre-capsuleer military types would almost certainly have gone through basic hand to hand, I just severely doubt in an age of laser rifles and wtfbbq weaponry they would use it much.
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For military training of starship crews, the hand-to-hand training may have much less to do with fighting a member of an opposing force than with restraining a mutinous/tripping-the-hell-out/berserk/going-through-an-emotional-breakdown crewmate before he damages something (unintentionally or deliberately) critical to your continued survival.
Imagine: You're in the middle of combat, and all of a sudden something fails; lights fail and toxic gas slowly starts filling the compartment you are in. Your crewmate snaps under the pressure of it all, abandons his post, and starts running to the nearest bulkhead door to escape (highlighted by handy glow-in-the-dark strips). A quick glance at the door's access panel, though, tells you that it must have taken a direct hit and has been opened to the vacuum of space. In this situation, knowing how to quickly get your buddy pinned to the floor and/or incapacitated safely might mean the difference between living to don a rebreather and getting sucked out into the vacuum.
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Hand-to-hand is also pretty useful because, you know, ships hallways are pretty cramped and you could easily be staring at the boarder's nostril hair as you turn around the corner.
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Hand-to-hand is also pretty useful because, you know, ships hallways are pretty cramped and you could easily be staring at the boarder's nostril hair as you turn around the corner.
I have a pair of brothers in the USAF, one Air Force and one Navy. The first brother was instructed in hand-to-hand and KEBAR combat, but only in basic and as prerequisite training. The latter brother was a sonar tech and was thus on an actual ship. From what he describes and has demonstrated, they didn't just teach him hand-to-hand combat, they made sure he practiced it weekly.
The problem with the tight confines of hallways, whether it's in a hotel, missile cruiser, or a starship, is that the idea of being able to sit somewhere and trade fire is a luxury, not the norm. While your common Army grunt probably will never use their combat knife for actual combat, that doesn't hold true for other services, especially ones who will need to be handling that kind of pressure in two scenarios:
-CQB applications where there is a chance you will walk through a door and have a second or two to react to someone who might be quite close and that you might not be able to shoot at that moment...
-MPs and other "law-enforcement" whose job it is to disarm and disable, not shoot, their targets.
Given that both of those are very possible for both Naval personnel and law-enforcement, it stands to reason that not only is it still taught, but it's probably still checked for competency. If you duck under a duct and come face to face with your enemy, you're taught to attack instead of retreating to fire your weapon. Generally that means that modern military combat styles (Sambo, Krav Maga, etc.) tend to emphasize quick neutralization.
In essence, they're not kung-fu. They aren't meant to be flashy, acrobatic, or even meant for fitness. Most of those styles are practical hybrid styles that serve a series of functions that may never cease to be pertinent. It isn't as much butt-stroking someone in a pinch; as disarming and punching someone in the throat can be done almost instantaneously. More important is that you may not want to kill every single person you get into a fight with. It might never cease to be useful to be able to hammerlock and pin someone that you need to neutralize but not kill.
Of course, a lot of capsuleers who never leave the capsule might think it's all kind of visceral and personal, and that you've done something wrong if you're in a situation where you use it. But not every capsuleer is like that. While many capsuleers may have had the training and may keep up on it to some degree, you'll probably see more of it used practically by capsuleers who aren't afraid to mix it up outside of the capsule.
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I don't see most RP martial arts as being described as modern military CQB/CQC techniques, or even things like point shooting with a sidearm/smg. A lot of it just seems to forget the "martial" aspect of martial arts, as in, you know fucking up another guy in the most practical and efficient means given the weapons and battlefields you have and the enemy has. It just comes off like some really over-romanticized stuff or something out of a John Woo flick.
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I don't see most RP martial arts as being described as modern military CQB/CQC techniques, or even things like point shooting with a sidearm/smg. A lot of it just seems to forget the "martial" aspect of martial arts, as in, you know fucking up another guy in the most practical and efficient means given the weapons and battlefields you have and the enemy has. It just comes off like some really over-romanticized stuff or something out of a John Woo flick.
You mean like this? (http://youtu.be/UoDKXozA0M4)
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I don't see most RP martial arts as being described as modern military CQB/CQC techniques, or even things like point shooting with a sidearm/smg. A lot of it just seems to forget the "martial" aspect of martial arts, as in, you know fucking up another guy in the most practical and efficient means given the weapons and battlefields you have and the enemy has. It just comes off like some really over-romanticized stuff or something out of a John Woo flick.
You mean like this? (http://youtu.be/UoDKXozA0M4)
Mastering the Fascist Gun Katas is required training for all Caldari, obviously.
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Hand-to-hand is also pretty useful because, you know, ships hallways are pretty cramped and you could easily be staring at the boarder's nostril hair as you turn around the corner.
I have a pair of brothers in the USAF, one Air Force and one Navy. The first brother was instructed in hand-to-hand and KEBAR combat, but only in basic and as prerequisite training. The latter brother was a sonar tech and was thus on an actual ship. From what he describes and has demonstrated, they didn't just teach him hand-to-hand combat, they made sure he practiced it weekly.
The problem with the tight confines of hallways, whether it's in a hotel, missile cruiser, or a starship, is that the idea of being able to sit somewhere and trade fire is a luxury, not the norm. While your common Army grunt probably will never use their combat knife for actual combat, that doesn't hold true for other services, especially ones who will need to be handling that kind of pressure in two scenarios:
-CQB applications where there is a chance you will walk through a door and have a second or two to react to someone who might be quite close and that you might not be able to shoot at that moment...
-MPs and other "law-enforcement" whose job it is to disarm and disable, not shoot, their targets.
Given that both of those are very possible for both Naval personnel and law-enforcement, it stands to reason that not only is it still taught, but it's probably still checked for competency. If you duck under a duct and come face to face with your enemy, you're taught to attack instead of retreating to fire your weapon. Generally that means that modern military combat styles (Sambo, Krav Maga, etc.) tend to emphasize quick neutralization.
In essence, they're not kung-fu. They aren't meant to be flashy, acrobatic, or even meant for fitness. Most of those styles are practical hybrid styles that serve a series of functions that may never cease to be pertinent. It isn't as much butt-stroking someone in a pinch; as disarming and punching someone in the throat can be done almost instantaneously. More important is that you may not want to kill every single person you get into a fight with. It might never cease to be useful to be able to hammerlock and pin someone that you need to neutralize but not kill.
Of course, a lot of capsuleers who never leave the capsule might think it's all kind of visceral and personal, and that you've done something wrong if you're in a situation where you use it. But not every capsuleer is like that. While many capsuleers may have had the training and may keep up on it to some degree, you'll probably see more of it used practically by capsuleers who aren't afraid to mix it up outside of the capsule.
That was exactly what I had in mind when I crafted Elmund's military career. He was trained as a Marine (Engineer) prior to his screening (and subsequent drafting into the Capsuleer Programme), therefore it's a given that he is competent in CQC. He also favors the SMG because, really, that's exactly what you would be using in tight corridors anyway.
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I have a pair of brothers in the USAF, one Air Force and one Navy.
Small nit - I stumble over reading this sentence because rarely do I see some refer to the US Armed Services as the US Armed Forces and then turn it into an acronym more commonly used for the US Air Force (USAF) (as in it is written on the sides of the Air Force aircraft, while NAVY and MARINE are on the sides of theirs).
Edit: for spelling
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I have a pair of brothers in the USAF, one Air Force and one Navy.
Small nit - I stumble over reading this sentence because rarely do I see some referr to the US Armed Services as the US Armed Forces and then turn it into an acronym more commonly used for the US Air Force (USAF) (as in it is written on the sides of the Air Force aircraft, while NAVY and MARINE are on the sides of theirs).
It's a bit more common if you're in the armed forces, I suspect. They're colloquially known through the rest of the service as the "chair force" because so few of their people are actually engaged in combat operations. My brother certainly isn't; he's about an hour away in Dayton.
Come to think of it, I almost never see the Air Force's name acronymized at all. I texted my brother to see why that was. He says that if you're in the Air Force, they took the time to teach you to spell the words.
Inter-service ribbing is fun! :D
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It feels almost special snowflaky to play someone who is not trained in martial arts...
I've always imagined that after receive the SOCT learning skills* and attribute implants is an experience very similar to the main character's in limitless. In the scene bellow, the character finds out that dormant in his brain was all the info he needed to kick some serious ass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swOuQBjbiLU
*I know they aren't in game any longer, but maybe we get them before graduation or something.
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It feels almost special snowflaky to play someone who is not trained in martial arts...
I've always imagined that after receive the SOCT learning skills* and attribute implants is an experience very similar to the main character's in limitless. In the scene bellow, the character finds out that dormant in his brain was all the info he needed to kick some serious ass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swOuQBjbiLU
*I know they aren't in game any longer, but maybe we get them before graduation or something.
Personally I'm not so sure, you could well be right but I'm not certain we've really seen anything to confirm this... but then I'm very out of date on my PF.
The reason I think this follows:
Now neurobiology is definitely not my field but dredging back some old memories: there are actually two types of memory: Declarative (facts, figures, basically what we tend to think of as memory) and Procedural memory which covers things like riding a bike, playing a musical instrument, "muscle memory" for sports: things like that: if you've ever stopped trying to remember what your signature is, fallen apart at doing some complex task like playing the piano once you actually started thinking about it, or got stuck trying to remember a password, sat down at a computer and typed it in on automatic: that's procedural memory vs. declarative memory. The thing is these seem to be stored seperately in the brain: one can be lost without the other which can lead to some slightly weird cases with incidences of brain injury where someone experiences retrograde amnesia but retains procedural memory: you can get the situtation where someone loses the memory of learning to play the piano and can't even begin to explain how to go about doing so but if you get them to sit down at a piano and try to play, they'll do so perfectly. All the skills we have in EVE to me seem to fall under declarative memory, not to say this stuff won't help you in a fight: knowing weak points in a body, limitations of a weapons system etc.
I don't think we have any evidence that you can slot procedural memory though which might throw a bit of a wrench in just downloading a martial art Matrix style: for example I did Judo as a kid but I never reached a very advanced level, now if you pushed me I could probably remember the theory of how you do some of the more advanced throws that I never "learnt" so to speak but if I actually tried to perform them I'd probably do so quite badly: I'd be just "off" enough to end up either flubbing it entirely or using a lot more energy than it should take and I'd have to concentrate all the way instead of it being a smooth action like you'd see in say a fight between two 10th-Dan judokas at a competition, and not just because I'm horrendously out of shape and very rusty on my judo after too many years but I don't "know" how to do that sort of stuff in my muscles instead of my mind as it were.
Of course I could be completely wrong, I wouldn't be surprised but that's my current thinking.
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Practical:
I think you can look at any of the last major Earth wars and come up with fairly abysmal totals for the amount of times someone serving aboard say, an aircraft carrier or a battleship had to repel or even encounter a boarding party.
Those ships shoot and get shot by other ships miles away, and get blown up by people they never, ever come in contact with.
Drama:
Sci fi ship boarding and shooting down the hallways sounds dramatic and might be fun to read about, however impractical.
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I'm not sure if this is Devil's Advocating or not, but let's think about this.
We say nearly everyone has martial arts training and / or is a gun freak or whatever.
Again I point to the 2 circles. I'd draw them if my mouse skills weren't so abysmal, but there 'the people who RP' and 'the people who do not'. This cross section of RPers is a small section of the first much smaller circle. We still fly through space drowning in the people in the second circle (they're not all bots or something. I know, I've been in non-RP corps. 'What is RP?' they ask. 'Is that that sex thing?')
Their characters aren't martial art experts. They never get out of their capsules from an RP standpoint. They're the factions and CONCORD's favorite kids specifically because of that. In there they can stay under control.
Anyone willing to get out of their Capsule and baseline against the rules or social mores that are present in most every faction (even if a Capsuleer is able to mingle with people in the Republic, social mores would keep them in their ships, fighting, Gallente wandering around likely have more than just their personal bodyguards mixed in among the cameras and glamour, Caldari are strictly segregated by way of highly accurate ammunition and seperate station areas, Amarrians are looked at with this odd twisted mix of awe, fear, sadness, and possibly disgust). This would leave any Capsuleer who wants to be out and about dealing with quite a bit of space paranoia on the ground. EVE paranoia is far reaching.
Could implants or SOCT training enhance this? Muscle memory? Tee-hee. Cloning makes REAL memory. Muscle memory is probably a joke to do. As it is we're born as cloned adults. Do we need to learn to walk again To run? To talk? To laugh, cry? Nah. Those are also muscle memories. Grimdark dictates we are dumped on a grate in a spash of golden hydrostatic fluid, and we also walk up right behind each other and put a bullet into each other.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yCcRMNT-WI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRyXDlZKwgA
Will everyone be an 'expert'? No.
Will experts tend to run into each other in a way that feels 'tropey' and 'more often'? Yes.
Why?
Because Fiction.
Also, because we've in a sense been actively seeking eachother out. Want to mix fantasy and reality? Go the entire nine yards. What made your character look for "other people who don't babble and call me weird slang names all the time"? Wouldn't that be, erm, dangerous? Wouldn't you be concerned about defending yourself? Capsuleer Paranoia and all that?
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Practical:
I think you can look at any of the last major Earth wars and come up with fairly abysmal totals for the amount of times someone serving aboard say, an aircraft carrier or a battleship had to repel or even encounter a boarding party.
Those ships shoot and get shot by other ships miles away, and get blown up by people they never, ever come in contact with.
Drama:
Sci fi ship boarding and shooting down the hallways sounds dramatic and might be fun to read about, however impractical.
To be fair, it's not like there's much parity in naval combat anymore. Nobody's going to try and board a carrier in a carrier group because it's the size of a small city and most of the people who'd want to do it would be trying to board it in a 30 year old destroyer.
On the other hand, there are plenty of boarding parties around the world, particularly the African and southeast Asian pirate groups. Those people do board ships and engage in cramped CQB combat and small-arms combat, preferably keeping as many hostages alive as possible.
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Practical:
I think you can look at any of the last major Earth wars and come up with fairly abysmal totals for the amount of times someone serving aboard say, an aircraft carrier or a battleship had to repel or even encounter a boarding party.
Those ships shoot and get shot by other ships miles away, and get blown up by people they never, ever come in contact with.
Drama:
Sci fi ship boarding and shooting down the hallways sounds dramatic and might be fun to read about, however impractical.
To be fair, it's not like there's much parity in naval combat anymore. Nobody's going to try and board a carrier in a carrier group because it's the size of a small city and most of the people who'd want to do it would be trying to board it in a 30 year old destroyer.
On the other hand, there are plenty of boarding parties around the world, particularly the African and southeast Asian pirate groups. Those people do board ships and engage in cramped CQB combat and small-arms combat, preferably keeping as many hostages alive as possible.
Yea but those pirates are all boarding unarmed and untrained ships. Piracy not equal to combat ship vs combat ship.
When the Somali pirates try to board a ship full of people with guns, it tends to not go well.
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Practical:
I think you can look at any of the last major Earth wars and come up with fairly abysmal totals for the amount of times someone serving aboard say, an aircraft carrier or a battleship had to repel or even encounter a boarding party.
Those ships shoot and get shot by other ships miles away, and get blown up by people they never, ever come in contact with.
Drama:
Sci fi ship boarding and shooting down the hallways sounds dramatic and might be fun to read about, however impractical.
To be fair, it's not like there's much parity in naval combat anymore. Nobody's going to try and board a carrier in a carrier group because it's the size of a small city and most of the people who'd want to do it would be trying to board it in a 30 year old destroyer.
On the other hand, there are plenty of boarding parties around the world, particularly the African and southeast Asian pirate groups. Those people do board ships and engage in cramped CQB combat and small-arms combat, preferably keeping as many hostages alive as possible.
Yea but those pirates are all boarding unarmed and untrained ships. Piracy not equal to combat ship vs combat ship.
When the Somali pirates try to board a ship full of people with guns, it tends to not go well.
That's why you need guns and CQB skills. So the Somali pirates don't take over our starships.
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Of course I don't have military connections and all, but I really don't think navy personnel learn CQC to prevent somali pirates to steal their warships...
That assumes your capsuleer never leaves the capsule for any reason to do anything. Especially if capsuleers are incredibly competitive and violent, it's not entirely inconceivable that they'd like to punch people every now and then or that combat sports would be their favorite way to stay fit.
I'd also assume that if you've ever done ship-boarding combat, you aren't just skilled in hand-to-hand combat, but you've probably used it. At close ranges, you can't rely on firearms. That's why police officers are almost universally skilled in hand-to-hand combat of some kind or another. You've got more cause to use it.
If anything, Pieter can probably snap arms in half having been a cop for so long.
Bleh, i'm not an expert but I really can't agree that firearms are useless at close range... Unless you use some kind of cumbersome assault rifle. A pistol thing probably works perfectly fine, you just have to point and shoot. How is that more complicated than using a fancy sword, a knife, or just one's hands ? You don't even need much skill, just reflexes...
I'm pretty sure police officers are skilled in hand-to-hand combat because they are not supposed to use their firearms... Also, are standard police officers trained to hand-to-hand combat ? Really ? I bet your average policeman maybe had a week of formation once...
Anyway ok, let's say that capsuleers need to defend themselves without resorting to lethal means, why not... But why ? Not to breach laws that they are not even bound by ? Because they are philanthropists ?
It feels almost special snowflaky to play someone who is not trained in martial arts...
I've always imagined that after receive the SOCT learning skills* and attribute implants is an experience very similar to the main character's in limitless. In the scene bellow, the character finds out that dormant in his brain was all the info he needed to kick some serious ass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swOuQBjbiLU
*I know they aren't in game any longer, but maybe we get them before graduation or something.
They were described as boosting like hell a lot of attributes (perception, willpower, etc), not teaching how to be a hand-to-hand combat god. Oh, well, I guess capsuleers can definitely beat the average joe with their eyes closed, yeah. Otherwise, i'm not sure a standard capsuleer with no combat knowledge would stand long against a hardened street punk or anything that spent his life brawling.
Now though... Maybe the tech can be hijacked by capsuleers to learn whatever they want...
I don't like that though. I read recently that people (not even capsuleers, but commoners !) use SoCT skillbooks to implant or download memories, ala Remember Me. As much as I like the idea, it sounds completely godmoddy or far stretched to me. Those damn skillbooks are supposed to represent the pinnacle of learning tech and cost fortunes in terms of baseliner money... We don't even know if they have been adapted for other uses than capsuleer skills...
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It feels almost special snowflaky to play someone who is not trained in martial arts...
I've always imagined that after receive the SOCT learning skills* and attribute implants is an experience very similar to the main character's in limitless. In the scene bellow, the character finds out that dormant in his brain was all the info he needed to kick some serious ass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swOuQBjbiLU
*I know they aren't in game any longer, but maybe we get them before graduation or something.
Personally I'm not so sure, you could well be right but I'm not certain we've really seen anything to confirm this... but then I'm very out of date on my PF.
Knowing CCP, they've given little thought to what retconning the skillbooks out of eve's lore along side it's mechanics means to RP. IMHO it was the learning skills that made capsuleers trans-human and without them they are just...human. Considering tran-humanity is the major theme of Eve RP that's a big :psyccp:.
Clarity -SOCT Advanced awareness training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential. These students develop almost superhuman sensory abilities and can react to stimuli so fast that, to the untrained eye, it almost seems as if they can predict the future.
Eidetic Memory - SOCT Advanced mnemonic training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential, allowing them to recall nearly anything they have ever experienced with total lucidity.
Focus - SOCT Advanced self-discipline training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential. These students are able to remain focused and alert under extreme pressure, and can ignore pain and fatigue for extended periods of time.
Logic - SOCT Advanced intelligence training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential. These students develop an intuitive understanding of complex patterns and are able to grasp esoteric concepts with incredible ease.
Presence - SOCT Advanced social consciousness training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential. Training in this skill allows a student to develop heightened mental sensitivity, to the point of being able to sense the surface mood and emotions of a person.
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Considering that the attribute points we got from training the all of the learning skills to 5 have been rolled into our heads by default, I think it's probably safe to imply or suggest that they are included as part of your capsule training program.
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Of course I don't have military connections and all, but I really don't think navy personnel learn CQC to prevent somali pirates to steal their warships...
The U.S Navy does, and frequently. Even the cooks. However, in the training scenarios the OpFor is usually a suicide bomber or fellow sailor that's snapped and not a pirate boarding party. Personally I don't feel the quality of the training is very good but we do it at least. We learn something call mechanical advantage holds (which is useless), tactical movements as a team (leap-frogging) and train to use the Mosberg 500 shotgun, M9 Beretta, M4 Carbine and OC spray
Part of the training requires you to be hit with the OC spray then go fight the "Red Man"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYNKV3GCODY.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDaKmbJp6LA
As you can see it often ends up looking more like a nerd on nerd slap-fest. I personally like to call OC Spray "Little bitch in a can," because that's what it turns you into. The guys in the first video must have had a remarkably un-potent batch (which happens) as they aren't all sobering and begging for it to be over.
Edit: This is a much more common reaction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmJuMStuhC4
Also, here is a Clip of US Navy boarding training. Anybody can sign up for a VBSS team, but not everyone goes through it like in the above Force Protection training.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qRIvblNnjM
Vid of MACH, the hand to hand training we get and is essentially useless the subject is compliant, drunk or OC'd :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfIHUV5biGk
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Of course I don't have military connections and all, but I really don't think navy personnel learn CQC to prevent somali pirates to steal their warships...
That assumes your capsuleer never leaves the capsule for any reason to do anything. Especially if capsuleers are incredibly competitive and violent, it's not entirely inconceivable that they'd like to punch people every now and then or that combat sports would be their favorite way to stay fit.
I'd also assume that if you've ever done ship-boarding combat, you aren't just skilled in hand-to-hand combat, but you've probably used it. At close ranges, you can't rely on firearms. That's why police officers are almost universally skilled in hand-to-hand combat of some kind or another. You've got more cause to use it.
If anything, Pieter can probably snap arms in half having been a cop for so long.
Bleh, i'm not an expert but I really can't agree that firearms are useless at close range... Unless you use some kind of cumbersome assault rifle. A pistol thing probably works perfectly fine, you just have to point and shoot. How is that more complicated than using a fancy sword, a knife, or just one's hands ? You don't even need much skill, just reflexes...
I'm pretty sure police officers are skilled in hand-to-hand combat because they are not supposed to use their firearms... Also, are standard police officers trained to hand-to-hand combat ? Really ? I bet your average policeman maybe had a week of formation once...
Anyway ok, let's say that capsuleers need to defend themselves without resorting to lethal means, why not... But why ? Not to breach laws that they are not even bound by ? Because they are philanthropists ?
It feels almost special snowflaky to play someone who is not trained in martial arts...
I've always imagined that after receive the SOCT learning skills* and attribute implants is an experience very similar to the main character's in limitless. In the scene bellow, the character finds out that dormant in his brain was all the info he needed to kick some serious ass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swOuQBjbiLU
*I know they aren't in game any longer, but maybe we get them before graduation or something.
They were described as boosting like hell a lot of attributes (perception, willpower, etc), not teaching how to be a hand-to-hand combat god. Oh, well, I guess capsuleers can definitely beat the average joe with their eyes closed, yeah. Otherwise, i'm not sure a standard capsuleer with no combat knowledge would stand long against a hardened street punk or anything that spent his life brawling.
Now though... Maybe the tech can be hijacked by capsuleers to learn whatever they want...
I don't like that though. I read recently that people (not even capsuleers, but commoners !) use SoCT skillbooks to implant or download memories, ala Remember Me. As much as I like the idea, it sounds completely godmoddy or far stretched to me. Those damn skillbooks are supposed to represent the pinnacle of learning tech and cost fortunes in terms of baseliner money... We don't even know if they have been adapted for other uses than capsuleer skills...
I think you'd be surprised what your average police officer knows how to do. I know they don't get the best press as far as skills go, but yes, police officers (at least in the U.S.) are almost universally skilled in both soft locks and hard strikes. Essentially, they have to be. It isn't just a matter of not wanting to use lethal force, it's that if people know you're armed, they wait for you to start patting them down or getting close before they assault you. Police holsters are actually impossible to draw the gun out of unless you know how to rock it back and forth.
As for keeping people alive, actually there are plenty of reasons, mostly because once someone is dead, they're of no value. If you need someone alive, whether for information or as a hostage, it'd be important. I'd see that as being much more important for Amarrians keeping slaves in line (killing them makes them completely valueless). I think it's a bit of a misnomer that guns are absolutely easy to use at close range, or at all. Having fired quite a few pistols in my life, if you're not in the Weaver stance, a pistol can be incredibly cumbersome to use. If you can get it pointed at the torso where it won't go anywhere, you'd be fine, but if someone gets hold of your gun arm, it can be just as dangerous to you as it is to your opponent. Police Glocks usually have a magazine safety, so that if someone does manage to get into grappling reach of an officer, they can just thumb the release and make the gun unable to fire the round in the chamber. They also tend to have grip safeties, so that if the gun is being held awkwardly and without sufficient pressure, it won't fire. The problem is that if you fire a bullet into concrete at your feet, you can have fragments spraying back at you.
EVE firearms may be different, but there's a reason people are still rigorously taught some manner of practical hand-to-hand combat in those kinds of jobs. Firing guns effectively is a lot harder to do than it looks. If you've got an imminent threat within arm's reach, you're usually taught not to even reach for it. You have to get control of the situation first.
I know maybe the idea of hand-to-hand combat seems really old fashioned, but it's definitely still important even today. Guns are a lot more dangerous and difficult to use in real life than in movies.
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Police officers ? Pardon my skepticism, but either city policemen or whatever are certainly not trained in hand-to-hand combat, at least where I live (they don't even have guns), and national police may have had a few training sessions occasionally, but that's not their role. The only thing I can imagine them to be efficient in is neutralizing people with a few standard moves or just using their damn stun batons... Hardly experts of krav maga. Except SWAT teams and very special police corps.
Now then, we are playing capsuleers... Not hostage takers ? I am not even sure how such a situation could occur, but why not I guess...?
I am also very skeptical that even a pistol can not be used properly at point blank. Ofc it's probably harder than one thinks, but between one guy armed with a gun and one guy without one at close range, I would bet 95% of the time on the armed guy. You can miss of course, but the case when you stumble across someone at the corner of a small corridor sounds rather... very specific to me.
And yes, eve firearms... I'm pretty sure they have autotargeting and all and can actually fire even without your help...
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I remember reading somewhere that 90% of the pistol shoot outs police are involved end with both sides running out of ammo and nobody wounded. I have no links to back that up though.
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Police officers ? Pardon my skepticism, but either city policemen or whatever are certainly not trained in hand-to-hand combat, at least where I live (they don't even have guns), and national police may have had a few training sessions occasionally, but that's not their role. The only thing I can imagine them to be efficient in is neutralizing people with a few standard moves or just using their damn stun batons... Hardly experts of krav maga. Except SWAT teams and very special police corps.
Now then, we are playing capsuleers... Not hostage takers ? I am not even sure how such a situation could occur, but why not I guess...?
I am also very skeptical that even a pistol can not be used properly at point blank. Ofc it's probably harder than one thinks, but between one guy armed with a gun and one guy without one at close range, I would bet 95% of the time on the armed guy. You can miss of course, but the case when you stumble across someone at the corner of a small corridor sounds rather... very specific to me.
And yes, eve firearms... I'm pretty sure they have autotargeting and all and can actually fire even without your help...
Do you live in the United States? Police officers here in Columbus, Ohio are definitely trained in hand-to-hand combat including barehanded striking, control locks, neutralizing armed suspects, use of batons, and more. I know a few police officers personally who've demonstrated a few maneuvers. I can't imagine a place on Earth where it would be okay to not know how to handle yourself as a police officer considering you have to follow a use-of-force guideline. Like I said, you'd be surprised what police officers have to know how to do. If someone isn't armed and decides to punch the crap out of you, you need to know how to get advantage again. Patrol officers especially have to take and retake fitness tests in some fairly nasty techniques every year or few years.
Purple is right that shootouts at point-blank range generally involve a LOT of ammo being sprayed and no one being hit. If you've never fired one before, a firearm is harder to control than you'd think. First and most important, you need to provide resistance to an autoloading pistol, since it's actually force from recoil that cycles the action. If you aren't gripping the gun correctly and provide no resistance when you fire, the gun can jam, pistols especially. Second, keeping control when you fire is exceptionally difficult when you're pulling the trigger quickly. You also need to be providing some backwards resistance to steady it. Third, if you fire into something nearby that is not elastic and you're using a regular old FMJ round, the bullet will simply explode and you could be injured by your own shrapnel.
Police officers are trained to not reach for their weapons if they won't have it out and ready to fire before someone arrives to take it from them. Guns are exceedingly dangerous. Until they began building in magazine and grip safeties, it was actually very common that, if an officer was shot in the line of duty, it was with his own weapon. It was in my gun-safety booklet they gave me when my father-in-law took me to a local club, so I might be able to get the precise statistic when I get home. Even that booklet told me that if I was ever within arm's reach of someone, not to draw while they are looking at me. As soon as your gun arm isn't entirely in your control anymore, the gun is as dangerous to you as anyone else.
I understand the skepticism, though. Movies and even real-life professionals make it look very easy after years and years of practice. Guns aren't as easy to handle as they look, though. Pistols especially are very hard to control because there is less mass to absorb recoil. That's more of what I'm talking about with EVE weapons, though. A laser weapon would essentially have no recoil and no kinetic force. That would make firing a laser weapon much easier, especially at close ranges.
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My father in law in the met (London) showed me 4 ways to incapacitate a man in three seconds on my husband, who is over a foot taller than him and father in law is prob half his size. (the first one he just reached for my husbands hand and asked "Wanna see something?")
He also grinned like a predator when the riots kicked off though and WANTED to be in the riot lines with the hopes he got to bash some chav's skull in, but hey.
And sis in law who is in a smalltown police force in England can also beat the shit out of someone in about 3 seconds flat - specifically because they AREN'T armed with anythign but that collapsible baton, and if they're lucky, a family member, or they, added a Maglite to their arsenal of innocent looking objects on their belts.
There is an *impression* that police officers are these lazy slow stumbling things.
Do not believe it. That's how they land you on your face on the street with your arm bent in interesting ways. On some level they WANT to look harmless. They are not to give off the impression of uniformed thugs. They are to be friendly and approachable. Which may look like the slightly pudgy smiling absent minded looking fellow (which is my father in law) and though he is slightly pudgy, and he may be smiling, he is not absent minded and will fucking own you, even at 54.
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Police officers ? Pardon my skepticism, but either city policemen or whatever are certainly not trained in hand-to-hand combat, at least where I live (they don't even have guns), and national police may have had a few training sessions occasionally, but that's not their role. The only thing I can imagine them to be efficient in is neutralizing people with a few standard moves or just using their damn stun batons... Hardly experts of krav maga. Except SWAT teams and very special police corps.
Now then, we are playing capsuleers... Not hostage takers ? I am not even sure how such a situation could occur, but why not I guess...?
I am also very skeptical that even a pistol can not be used properly at point blank. Ofc it's probably harder than one thinks, but between one guy armed with a gun and one guy without one at close range, I would bet 95% of the time on the armed guy. You can miss of course, but the case when you stumble across someone at the corner of a small corridor sounds rather... very specific to me.
And yes, eve firearms... I'm pretty sure they have autotargeting and all and can actually fire even without your help...
Do you live in the United States? Police officers here in Columbus, Ohio are definitely trained in hand-to-hand combat including barehanded striking, control locks, neutralizing armed suspects, use of batons, and more. I know a few police officers personally who've demonstrated a few maneuvers. I can't imagine a place on Earth where it would be okay to not know how to handle yourself as a police officer considering you have to follow a use-of-force guideline. Like I said, you'd be surprised what police officers have to know how to do. If someone isn't armed and decides to punch the crap out of you, you need to know how to get advantage again. Patrol officers especially have to take and retake fitness tests in some fairly nasty techniques every year or few years.
Purple is right that shootouts at point-blank range generally involve a LOT of ammo being sprayed and no one being hit. If you've never fired one before, a firearm is harder to control than you'd think. First and most important, you need to provide resistance to an autoloading pistol, since it's actually force from recoil that cycles the action. If you aren't gripping the gun correctly and provide no resistance when you fire, the gun can jam, pistols especially. Second, keeping control when you fire is exceptionally difficult when you're pulling the trigger quickly. You also need to be providing some backwards resistance to steady it. Third, if you fire into something nearby that is not elastic and you're using a regular old FMJ round, the bullet will simply explode and you could be injured by your own shrapnel.
Police officers are trained to not reach for their weapons if they won't have it out and ready to fire before someone arrives to take it from them. Guns are exceedingly dangerous. Until they began building in magazine and grip safeties, it was actually very common that, if an officer was shot in the line of duty, it was with his own weapon. It was in my gun-safety booklet they gave me when my father-in-law took me to a local club, so I might be able to get the precise statistic when I get home. Even that booklet told me that if I was ever within arm's reach of someone, not to draw while they are looking at me. As soon as your gun arm isn't entirely in your control anymore, the gun is as dangerous to you as anyone else.
I understand the skepticism, though. Movies and even real-life professionals make it look very easy after years and years of practice. Guns aren't as easy to handle as they look, though. Pistols especially are very hard to control because there is less mass to absorb recoil. That's more of what I'm talking about with EVE weapons, though. A laser weapon would essentially have no recoil and no kinetic force. That would make firing a laser weapon much easier, especially at close ranges.
Your version of police officers and the often out of shape trigger happy variety I'm familiar with are vastly different. :lol:
It's a separate issue anyway, police are supposedly trained to not always use lethal force; armed forces training primarily to kill people are. They get big guns that hurt people from far away; the sorts of western military we are familiar with on Earth are awfully concerned with civilian casualties and often have to contemplate controlled application of force with the minimum number of outside casualties.
In grimdark EVE they have giant hand cannons and ships from orbit bombarding entire sectors disintegrating everything; they will shoot you to ruin as fast as possible from as far away as possible.
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My father in law in the met (London) showed me 4 ways to incapacitate a man in three seconds on my husband, who is over a foot taller than him and father in law is prob half his size. (the first one he just reached for my husbands hand and asked "Wanna see something?")
He also grinned like a predator when the riots kicked off though and WANTED to be in the riot lines with the hopes he got to bash some chav's skull in, but hey.
And sis in law who is in a smalltown police force in England can also beat the shit out of someone in about 3 seconds flat - specifically because they AREN'T armed with anythign but that collapsible baton, and if they're lucky, a family member, or they, added a Maglite to their arsenal of innocent looking objects on their belts.
There is an *impression* that police officers are these lazy slow stumbling things.
Do not believe it. That's how they land you on your face on the street with your arm bent in interesting ways. On some level they WANT to look harmless. They are not to give off the impression of uniformed thugs. They are to be friendly and approachable. Which may look like the slightly pudgy smiling absent minded looking fellow (which is my father in law) and though he is slightly pudgy, and he may be smiling, he is not absent minded and will fucking own you, even at 54.
That reminds me of stories of old (ancient) war veterans beating the snot out of some robber with their shoe or walking stick without batting an eyelid.
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In grimdark EVE they have giant hand cannons and ships from orbit bombarding entire sectors disintegrating everything; they will shoot you to ruin as fast as possible from as far away as possible.
Oddly enough, I have had this thought put-forward for Warhammer 40k, but there is an actual answer in that case. In the case of the 40k Universe, ground war is important because there is value in physical hardware, even if damaged. Bombarding a location from orbit is just as likely to destroy an objective you would rather secure & repair than attempt to replace. It is the difference between wanting to level a castle and take the castle.
In Eve, one has to force the ground war by having incredibly hardened targets. We are talking about the kind of facilities that put Cheyenne Mountain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne_Mountain_nuclear_bunker) to shame (Cheyenne Mountain was designed for a 30 megaton nuclear explosion[12] within 1.0 nmi (1.2 mi; 1.9 km)). In Eve, a mind, an isolated AI or data-network, a particular incredibly unique object, hold actual value. Non-unique things, groups of people, etc do not hold value in New Eden. So, unless something is incredibly valuable as a physical thing, then it is 1) unlikely to be defended such that ground forces are needed and 2) is going to be defended in such a way as to make it horribly difficult and nasty and require specialized troops (who are not capsuleers).
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Police officers ? Pardon my skepticism, but either city policemen or whatever are certainly not trained in hand-to-hand combat, at least where I live (they don't even have guns), and national police may have had a few training sessions occasionally, but that's not their role. The only thing I can imagine them to be efficient in is neutralizing people with a few standard moves or just using their damn stun batons... Hardly experts of krav maga. Except SWAT teams and very special police corps.
Now then, we are playing capsuleers... Not hostage takers ? I am not even sure how such a situation could occur, but why not I guess...?
I am also very skeptical that even a pistol can not be used properly at point blank. Ofc it's probably harder than one thinks, but between one guy armed with a gun and one guy without one at close range, I would bet 95% of the time on the armed guy. You can miss of course, but the case when you stumble across someone at the corner of a small corridor sounds rather... very specific to me.
And yes, eve firearms... I'm pretty sure they have autotargeting and all and can actually fire even without your help...
Do you live in the United States? Police officers here in Columbus, Ohio are definitely trained in hand-to-hand combat including barehanded striking, control locks, neutralizing armed suspects, use of batons, and more. I know a few police officers personally who've demonstrated a few maneuvers. I can't imagine a place on Earth where it would be okay to not know how to handle yourself as a police officer considering you have to follow a use-of-force guideline. Like I said, you'd be surprised what police officers have to know how to do. If someone isn't armed and decides to punch the crap out of you, you need to know how to get advantage again. Patrol officers especially have to take and retake fitness tests in some fairly nasty techniques every year or few years.
Purple is right that shootouts at point-blank range generally involve a LOT of ammo being sprayed and no one being hit. If you've never fired one before, a firearm is harder to control than you'd think. First and most important, you need to provide resistance to an autoloading pistol, since it's actually force from recoil that cycles the action. If you aren't gripping the gun correctly and provide no resistance when you fire, the gun can jam, pistols especially. Second, keeping control when you fire is exceptionally difficult when you're pulling the trigger quickly. You also need to be providing some backwards resistance to steady it. Third, if you fire into something nearby that is not elastic and you're using a regular old FMJ round, the bullet will simply explode and you could be injured by your own shrapnel.
Police officers are trained to not reach for their weapons if they won't have it out and ready to fire before someone arrives to take it from them. Guns are exceedingly dangerous. Until they began building in magazine and grip safeties, it was actually very common that, if an officer was shot in the line of duty, it was with his own weapon. It was in my gun-safety booklet they gave me when my father-in-law took me to a local club, so I might be able to get the precise statistic when I get home. Even that booklet told me that if I was ever within arm's reach of someone, not to draw while they are looking at me. As soon as your gun arm isn't entirely in your control anymore, the gun is as dangerous to you as anyone else.
I understand the skepticism, though. Movies and even real-life professionals make it look very easy after years and years of practice. Guns aren't as easy to handle as they look, though. Pistols especially are very hard to control because there is less mass to absorb recoil. That's more of what I'm talking about with EVE weapons, though. A laser weapon would essentially have no recoil and no kinetic force. That would make firing a laser weapon much easier, especially at close ranges.
Your version of police officers and the often out of shape trigger happy variety I'm familiar with are vastly different. :lol:
It's a separate issue anyway, police are supposedly trained to not always use lethal force; armed forces training primarily to kill people are. They get big guns that hurt people from far away; the sorts of western military we are familiar with on Earth are awfully concerned with civilian casualties and often have to contemplate controlled application of force with the minimum number of outside casualties.
In grimdark EVE they have giant hand cannons and ships from orbit bombarding entire sectors disintegrating everything; they will shoot you to ruin as fast as possible from as far away as possible.
I do have a question about that. That's been brought up a lot, but if capsuleers have nothing stopping them from melting whole cities to kill their personal targets, you'd think it would happen a lot more often.
I don't think anyone's suggesting military personnel are trained to kung-fu their way through an invasion action, but I didn't even think about if you needed somebody dead and had to break into a hotel room in a hisec station. If you can't Anton Chigurh your way through one, it's your only option. But capsuleers don't seem to be glassing planet surfaces or it would probably make the news.
Is it just harder than it looks or is it just a matter of not being able to do so with CONCORD around?
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Well its happened in the past, Mabnen as I recall involving Blood Inquisition and their subsequent withdrawal from the Bleaklands into Delve. But that was before my time around early 2005. They viral-bombed the planet.
I'm sure it happens that some idiot capsuleer will fire shells at a populated planet for giggles, but most likely CONCORD appears, and royally fucks up the capsuleer and his pod-liscence or what not for using disproportionate force in empire space. But as I recall, capsuleers do bomb planets for faction warfare yea?
More importantly, the question is - to what end?
Its a bit like terrorism really. Buying an AK on the market in europe isn't all that difficult. Hell its easy enough to buy a shotgun for hunting. You could easily go into a primary school and start shooting. But what for? To what end? What does it achieve? What is the intended end state?
We could apply this to capsuleers. First of all, more importantly - if they're complete homicidal psychopaths before capsuleer training, how the hell did they get past the screening processes and psych evaluation? I'm sure a percentage got through, but it should be in theory minimal. I highly doubt people were 'born' capsuleers, but became capsuleers. Yes, they could turn into eventual beings with little morals, but the initial psyche they had when they were still human should still in theory still provide a form of "natural" safeguard against complete psychopathic behavior.
What would a capsuleer bombing a planet to kill someone achieve? Disproportionate use of firepower for a personal objective, using a ship that would easily be spotted and traced. Its even quite possible that CONCORD/Yulai demands a form of ship registration for every ship built and flown. There could also be passive tracking of ships that pass through what systems. So getting away without being spotted by CONCORD (unless in 0.0) would be rather.... difficult.
Also it could be that some weapons are simply NOT on the market and not sold. In the IRL weapons market, officially at the government level, you can buy all sorts of shit. Small arms, armored vehicles, jet fighters, tanks, ballistic missiles. You only have to go to Eurosatory for a day to see what sort of weapons are being sold officially on the world arms market. Its impressive at first, but you soon become a little disturbed as you realize that the small rooms in the corner of the hall is not the restrooms nor rooms to get a little action with the hot stand girls, but rooms to negotiate purchases from big armament corporations like Rhinemetal and MBDA to buy the latest missile technology and launch platform. That said.... some weapons are just not for sale. You will not be able to buy nuclear launch vectors. Chemical weapns are not sold. WMDs are not sold. Cluster bombs are not sold. Mines are not sold. And etc etc. I think likewise in EVE, planet bombardment weapons are kept precisely in the total control of State-powers to avoid the retardery involved with capsuleers getting their hands on them. I'm sure those that do will attempt to use them should they be psychotic enough, but the response would be similar to capsuleers shooting at another capsuleer in high-sec without the proper documents. In null-sec perhaps... but noone (CONCORD) cares, since thats no-man's land.
Third potential reason is that its disproportionate. What is the end-state of bombing a planet? What the hell for? To "pursuade" someone into paying protection money? I'm sure the local planetary government could call up the local navy or CONCORD to blow that capsuleer away and revoke his licence. But still, bombing a planet and killing 5 million people. How does that help your cause in having people actually want to deal with you? Probably very counter-productive. Even in terrorism, going after children is a no-no. PR wise its counter-productive, and does nothing to further your cause. You want people to support your struggles, not turn unilaterally against you for being an uncontrolled psychopath.
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Well its happened in the past, Mabnen as I recall involving Blood Inquisition and their subsequent withdrawal from the Bleaklands into Delve. But that was before my time around early 2005. They viral-bombed the planet.
I'm sure it happens that some idiot capsuleer will fire shells at a populated planet for giggles, but most likely CONCORD appears, and royally fucks up the capsuleer and his pod-liscence or what not for using disproportionate force in empire space. But as I recall, capsuleers do bomb planets for faction warfare yea?
Yes, but only once they receive the coordinates from the Dusters on ground.
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I do have a question about that. That's been brought up a lot, but if capsuleers have nothing stopping them from melting whole cities to kill their personal targets, you'd think it would happen a lot more often.
I don't think anyone's suggesting military personnel are trained to kung-fu their way through an invasion action, but I didn't even think about if you needed somebody dead and had to break into a hotel room in a hisec station. If you can't Anton Chigurh your way through one, it's your only option. But capsuleers don't seem to be glassing planet surfaces or it would probably make the news.
Is it just harder than it looks or is it just a matter of not being able to do so with CONCORD around?
It hasn't been properly explained, but there are nebulous reasons for why we cannot, all leading back to CONCORD. After some thinkering on it, I managed to figure out an explanation that works for my small bubble world of RP.
The capsule is a poorly understood device. A scarce few number of people who aren't Jove actually understand how it works. The rest just know how to assemble it and how to use it. The lack of widespread understanding of the capsule is probably why CONCORD can enforce such a monopoly on the command software that it runs on. They can determine what the capsule shows us and what it doesn't.
It's why we can't disable our collision safeties. It's why we can't see escape pods or 99% of civilian traffic. It's why CONCORD can literally disable our entire ship with the flip of a switch if the want to. It's why every locator agent in New Eden has access to our exact whereabouts at any time. It's why we can't target planets unless we're in a CONCORD defined militia.
The capsule is less a symbol of freedom, and more a collar to keep capsuleers restrained. The equipment we use is tightly controlled remotely at all times, and doesn't respond well to tampering (client modification).
Can one still target a planet and shoot it? Yes. People have done it in RP, because I'm sure there are more traditional ways to point a damn gun and shoot it in a specific direction. Doesn't mean the capsule allowed it.
So why don't we see more capsuleers glassing planets in highsec? Because most capsuleers haven't bothered to circumvent the controls by doing comparatively exhaustive targeting calculations that take into account the myriad physics and such that would be required. Also, tunnel vision. They forget it's still possible.
A few inventive baddies (read: roleplayers) have figured out that they don't need the capsule to shoot a city though. For those people? There are OOC power-gaming guidelines to govern fair use of the unverifiable-with-gameplay claims.
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Well its happened in the past, Mabnen as I recall involving Blood Inquisition and their subsequent withdrawal from the Bleaklands into Delve. But that was before my time around early 2005. They viral-bombed the planet.
I'm sure it happens that some idiot capsuleer will fire shells at a populated planet for giggles, but most likely CONCORD appears, and royally fucks up the capsuleer and his pod-liscence or what not for using disproportionate force in empire space. But as I recall, capsuleers do bomb planets for faction warfare yea?
Yes, but only once they receive the coordinates from the Dusters on ground.
Which makes sense, in a way. It's all very well to talk about orbital bombardment casually, but unless you have a very specific target to work with, the average ship-based weaponry we have will do little except make pretty lights. Shells and missiles will burn up, lasers and plasma will dissipate. With exact coordinates, and some fancy calculations, you can get the right angles and such to get an effective strike, otherwise you'll mostly be wasting ammunition.
Never mind the fact that the range from ground to orbit is a mite larger than the maximum range of any of our weapons...
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CCP has always been a tad inconsistent with what capsuleers and CONCORD can and can't do. One day capsuleers are super-powerful space demi-gods that are running amok and CONCORD is powerless to stop them when CCP marketing has the helm. Then other times CONCORD and the DED are omgwtfpwnmachines whenever it's required that they have to be so.
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Police officers ? Pardon my skepticism, but either city policemen or whatever are certainly not trained in hand-to-hand combat, at least where I live (they don't even have guns), and national police may have had a few training sessions occasionally, but that's not their role. The only thing I can imagine them to be efficient in is neutralizing people with a few standard moves or just using their damn stun batons... Hardly experts of krav maga. Except SWAT teams and very special police corps.
Now then, we are playing capsuleers... Not hostage takers ? I am not even sure how such a situation could occur, but why not I guess...?
I am also very skeptical that even a pistol can not be used properly at point blank. Ofc it's probably harder than one thinks, but between one guy armed with a gun and one guy without one at close range, I would bet 95% of the time on the armed guy. You can miss of course, but the case when you stumble across someone at the corner of a small corridor sounds rather... very specific to me.
And yes, eve firearms... I'm pretty sure they have autotargeting and all and can actually fire even without your help...
Do you live in the United States? Police officers here in Columbus, Ohio are definitely trained in hand-to-hand combat including barehanded striking, control locks, neutralizing armed suspects, use of batons, and more. I know a few police officers personally who've demonstrated a few maneuvers. I can't imagine a place on Earth where it would be okay to not know how to handle yourself as a police officer considering you have to follow a use-of-force guideline. Like I said, you'd be surprised what police officers have to know how to do. If someone isn't armed and decides to punch the crap out of you, you need to know how to get advantage again. Patrol officers especially have to take and retake fitness tests in some fairly nasty techniques every year or few years.
Purple is right that shootouts at point-blank range generally involve a LOT of ammo being sprayed and no one being hit. If you've never fired one before, a firearm is harder to control than you'd think. First and most important, you need to provide resistance to an autoloading pistol, since it's actually force from recoil that cycles the action. If you aren't gripping the gun correctly and provide no resistance when you fire, the gun can jam, pistols especially. Second, keeping control when you fire is exceptionally difficult when you're pulling the trigger quickly. You also need to be providing some backwards resistance to steady it. Third, if you fire into something nearby that is not elastic and you're using a regular old FMJ round, the bullet will simply explode and you could be injured by your own shrapnel.
Police officers are trained to not reach for their weapons if they won't have it out and ready to fire before someone arrives to take it from them. Guns are exceedingly dangerous. Until they began building in magazine and grip safeties, it was actually very common that, if an officer was shot in the line of duty, it was with his own weapon. It was in my gun-safety booklet they gave me when my father-in-law took me to a local club, so I might be able to get the precise statistic when I get home. Even that booklet told me that if I was ever within arm's reach of someone, not to draw while they are looking at me. As soon as your gun arm isn't entirely in your control anymore, the gun is as dangerous to you as anyone else.
I understand the skepticism, though. Movies and even real-life professionals make it look very easy after years and years of practice. Guns aren't as easy to handle as they look, though. Pistols especially are very hard to control because there is less mass to absorb recoil. That's more of what I'm talking about with EVE weapons, though. A laser weapon would essentially have no recoil and no kinetic force. That would make firing a laser weapon much easier, especially at close ranges.
I just feel like cops are not like shown in movies indeed, they are not chuck norris and probably only have a few training sessions to keep their professionalism up, but that doesnt make them martial art experts. :/
On the small guns not easy to handle, well, if you say so... I never tried anyway.
My father in law in the met (London) showed me 4 ways to incapacitate a man in three seconds on my husband, who is over a foot taller than him and father in law is prob half his size. (the first one he just reached for my husbands hand and asked "Wanna see something?")
He also grinned like a predator when the riots kicked off though and WANTED to be in the riot lines with the hopes he got to bash some chav's skull in, but hey.
And sis in law who is in a smalltown police force in England can also beat the shit out of someone in about 3 seconds flat - specifically because they AREN'T armed with anythign but that collapsible baton, and if they're lucky, a family member, or they, added a Maglite to their arsenal of innocent looking objects on their belts.
There is an *impression* that police officers are these lazy slow stumbling things.
Do not believe it. That's how they land you on your face on the street with your arm bent in interesting ways. On some level they WANT to look harmless. They are not to give off the impression of uniformed thugs. They are to be friendly and approachable. Which may look like the slightly pudgy smiling absent minded looking fellow (which is my father in law) and though he is slightly pudgy, and he may be smiling, he is not absent minded and will fucking own you, even at 54.
If you think that's what I implied, then I must have written something wrong somewhere...
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Well no, they're not Chuck Norris. They don't learn karate. Hybrid styles aren't pretty, flashy, or fun to watch, really. Like the most boring and effective parts of MMA fighting. They probably don't look like martial arts experts because they aren't breaking boards with tae kwon do kicks. But that really depends on what you'd define as a martial arts expert. Most cops don't look or seem threatening, as Arista said, they're trained to not do their best Clint Eastwood impression. However, it's logical that if your life would someday depend on being able to defend yourself from some drug dealer who had concealed a knife, you'd take it very seriously.
Most of a police officer's success in that arena comes from tactical control of a situation. You don't know it, but every routine question and traffic stop is carefully scripted and calculated to provide them with the most control of any situation they walk into so that, if someone they're dealing with decides to start a fight, they're always in a position to immediately fight back. So you may not see pretty judo hip throws all the time, but you'll hear about bones being cracked, tendons snapped, that sort of thing.
I've known better than to give a cop any reason to think I might not be on the level, and I live in a pretty good part of Ohio. They may not be Georges St Pierre, but cops are a lot more skilled than most people know. There was a guy I lived next to in Houston who reached for his cell phone when he was supposed to have his hands on the wall while a cop frisked him. He ended up having his wrist snapped and shoulder separated. He was still in a cast and sling when he got out of jail.
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Well no, they're not Chuck Norris. They don't learn karate. Hybrid styles aren't pretty, flashy, or fun to watch, really. Like the most boring and effective parts of MMA fighting. They probably don't look like martial arts experts because they aren't breaking boards with tae kwon do kicks. But that really depends on what you'd define as a martial arts expert. Most cops don't look or seem threatening, as Arista said, they're trained to not do their best Clint Eastwood impression. However, it's logical that if your life would someday depend on being able to defend yourself from some drug dealer who had concealed a knife, you'd take it very seriously.
Most of a police officer's success in that arena comes from tactical control of a situation. You don't know it, but every routine question and traffic stop is carefully scripted and calculated to provide them with the most control of any situation they walk into so that, if someone they're dealing with decides to start a fight, they're always in a position to immediately fight back. So you may not see pretty judo hip throws all the time, but you'll hear about bones being cracked, tendons snapped, that sort of thing.
I've known better than to give a cop any reason to think I might not be on the level, and I live in a pretty good part of Ohio. They may not be Georges St Pierre, but cops are a lot more skilled than most people know. There was a guy I lived next to in Houston who reached for his cell phone when he was supposed to have his hands on the wall while a cop frisked him. He ended up having his wrist snapped and shoulder separated. He was still in a cast and sling when he got out of jail.
Dude you are watching too many movies :lol: just watch a few episodes of COPS or one of those police chase reality shows and you'll see just about all of them on film are more of the bungling variety than the tactical expert SWAT variety :P
Plenty of ass kickers but plenty, plenty, of normal people quick to use weapons and out of shape.
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reality shows
I seriously hope you're joking.
I might hesitate to call my mother a variety of synonyms for "fucking idiot" to her face for thinking "reality TV" is anything but scripted to the point that CCP's live events look like an improv troupe in comparison, but I've no such hesitation with anyone else. :bash:
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reality shows
I seriously hope you're joking.
I might hesitate to call my mother a variety of synonyms for "fucking idiot" to her face for thinking "reality TV" is anything but scripted to the point that CCP's live events look like an improv troupe in comparison, but I've no such hesitation with anyone else. :bash:
No no no I'm talking late 80s and early 90s COPS on FOX. Those were certainly not scripted.
Not today's variety for sure :P
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reality shows
I seriously hope you're joking.
I might hesitate to call my mother a variety of synonyms for "fucking idiot" to her face for thinking "reality TV" is anything but scripted to the point that CCP's live events look like an improv troupe in comparison, but I've no such hesitation with anyone else. :bash:
No no no I'm talking late 80s and early 90s COPS on FOX. Those were certainly not scripted.
Not today's variety for sure :P
I loved watching COPS, but I don't know what you were watching. Back in the 90s, when they'd run people down, you'd see the cops chasing down and hammer-locking crack dealers so quickly you'd think they were just tackling them. When the camera finally catches up, they've got suspects in one-handed stress positions while they search them.
Maybe you'd have to have tackled people in a retail store while they're tweaking to appreciate how hard that is. Once, it took me and two 200 lbs security guards to hold down one methhead until he finally wore himself out. We couldn't move him until then.
Like I said, it's not flashy or impressive looking, but one of the reasons I liked watching COPS was that, every now and then, you'd get to see a cop actually catch one of them. Most of the time, by the time the camera caught up, the guy was on the ground.
And I like seeing people tasered.
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reality shows
I seriously hope you're joking.
I might hesitate to call my mother a variety of synonyms for "fucking idiot" to her face for thinking "reality TV" is anything but scripted to the point that CCP's live events look like an improv troupe in comparison, but I've no such hesitation with anyone else. :bash:
No no no I'm talking late 80s and early 90s COPS on FOX. Those were certainly not scripted.
Not today's variety for sure :P
I loved watching COPS, but I don't know what you were watching. Back in the 90s, when they'd run people down, you'd see the cops chasing down and hammer-locking crack dealers so quickly you'd think they were just tackling them. When the camera finally catches up, they've got suspects in one-handed stress positions while they search them.
Maybe you'd have to have tackled people in a retail store while they're tweaking to appreciate how hard that is. Once, it took me and two 200 lbs security guards to hold down one methhead until he finally wore himself out. We couldn't move him until then.
Like I said, it's not flashy or impressive looking, but one of the reasons I liked watching COPS was that, every now and then, you'd get to see a cop actually catch one of them. Most of the time, by the time the camera caught up, the guy was on the ground.
And I like seeing people tasered.
I think that is my point, it's them chasing people down and tackling and then holding on to them with a few of their friends on top, not close-quarters martial arts. but we way off topic :)
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reality shows
I seriously hope you're joking.
I might hesitate to call my mother a variety of synonyms for "fucking idiot" to her face for thinking "reality TV" is anything but scripted to the point that CCP's live events look like an improv troupe in comparison, but I've no such hesitation with anyone else. :bash:
No no no I'm talking late 80s and early 90s COPS on FOX. Those were certainly not scripted.
Not today's variety for sure :P
I loved watching COPS, but I don't know what you were watching. Back in the 90s, when they'd run people down, you'd see the cops chasing down and hammer-locking crack dealers so quickly you'd think they were just tackling them. When the camera finally catches up, they've got suspects in one-handed stress positions while they search them.
Maybe you'd have to have tackled people in a retail store while they're tweaking to appreciate how hard that is. Once, it took me and two 200 lbs security guards to hold down one methhead until he finally wore himself out. We couldn't move him until then.
Like I said, it's not flashy or impressive looking, but one of the reasons I liked watching COPS was that, every now and then, you'd get to see a cop actually catch one of them. Most of the time, by the time the camera caught up, the guy was on the ground.
And I like seeing people tasered.
I think that is my point, it's them chasing people down and tackling and then holding on to them with a few of their friends on top, not close-quarters martial arts. but we way off topic :)
Well, I don't think we're so off topic. It's really about what kind of martial arts capsuleers would probably know. It doesn't look flashy or pretty and it's usually over in a few seconds, but I'd be more afraid of that than a tae kwon do expert. That's probably the most common method of hand-to-hand combat capsuleers know. To say they know martial arts isn't really that crazy, as long as everyone doesn't know ten forms of kung-fu.
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I think a wide variety of martial arts being known makes a lot of sense, especially for the combat pilot types. Whether the martial art is functional or art/meditation is likely to depend heavily on the character.
For example: I have Gaven know swordplay and wear a saber on his dress uniform as a way of signalling the military aristocratic background. He would never actually use that in a personal confrontation, because in any situation where a personal confrontation might happen he is going to be surrounded by body guards. The family tradition of learning swordplay is more of a reference to the fact that the family traces its origins back to when the Amarr were using swords and then a form of meditation/exercise.
I would expect characters with more down to earth backgrounds to have more down to earth and functional martial arts. Similarly, I would expect people of some backgrounds to have no martial arts at all. From the sounds of things, this last group is a bit underrepresented.
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Well no, they're not Chuck Norris. They don't learn karate. Hybrid styles aren't pretty, flashy, or fun to watch, really. Like the most boring and effective parts of MMA fighting. They probably don't look like martial arts experts because they aren't breaking boards with tae kwon do kicks. But that really depends on what you'd define as a martial arts expert. Most cops don't look or seem threatening, as Arista said, they're trained to not do their best Clint Eastwood impression. However, it's logical that if your life would someday depend on being able to defend yourself from some drug dealer who had concealed a knife, you'd take it very seriously.
Most of a police officer's success in that arena comes from tactical control of a situation. You don't know it, but every routine question and traffic stop is carefully scripted and calculated to provide them with the most control of any situation they walk into so that, if someone they're dealing with decides to start a fight, they're always in a position to immediately fight back. So you may not see pretty judo hip throws all the time, but you'll hear about bones being cracked, tendons snapped, that sort of thing.
I've known better than to give a cop any reason to think I might not be on the level, and I live in a pretty good part of Ohio. They may not be Georges St Pierre, but cops are a lot more skilled than most people know. There was a guy I lived next to in Houston who reached for his cell phone when he was supposed to have his hands on the wall while a cop frisked him. He ended up having his wrist snapped and shoulder separated. He was still in a cast and sling when he got out of jail.
Cops are like anyone else, they may know some tricks, it certainly does not protect them, even from the local dealer. I have watched many videos of my local equivalent of the criminal enforcement police / public safety. Those are selected over contests, are trained in self defense (hand to hand or firearms), carry semi automatic pistols, batons, some can carry shotguns or SMGs when needed, tasers, flashballs, etc. They often are seen in rough situations, but they will NEVER intervene when they are less than 5 or 6 of them (or more). To begin, they never are alone. Then, when they are just two of them, they NEVER intervene, it's forbidden for their safety. Even those guys can not, so why other cops would ? That sounds like stupid heroism to me. And those are part of the best (not counting specially trained police like SWAT teams, who are playing on another level). And they still don't do stupid things like counting on their skills alone, because no matter how good they are, it only works when conditions are in their favour.
Apply that to capsuleers now... Unless maybe if they are some kind of super augmented soldier...
It's not because you can neutralize the average joe/dealer that you are safe. In those situations, I am a staunch believer that the more resistance you show, the more quickly you will end up quite dead. Well, take that as a subjective and very biased opinion since I have never been able to understand the american mindset on firearms, it just sounds completely silly to me, like shooting oneself in the foot. So, maybe my inability to understand comes from there.
reality shows
I seriously hope you're joking.
I might hesitate to call my mother a variety of synonyms for "fucking idiot" to her face for thinking "reality TV" is anything but scripted to the point that CCP's live events look like an improv troupe in comparison, but I've no such hesitation with anyone else. :bash:
No no no I'm talking late 80s and early 90s COPS on FOX. Those were certainly not scripted.
Not today's variety for sure :P
I loved watching COPS, but I don't know what you were watching. Back in the 90s, when they'd run people down, you'd see the cops chasing down and hammer-locking crack dealers so quickly you'd think they were just tackling them. When the camera finally catches up, they've got suspects in one-handed stress positions while they search them.
Maybe you'd have to have tackled people in a retail store while they're tweaking to appreciate how hard that is. Once, it took me and two 200 lbs security guards to hold down one methhead until he finally wore himself out. We couldn't move him until then.
Like I said, it's not flashy or impressive looking, but one of the reasons I liked watching COPS was that, every now and then, you'd get to see a cop actually catch one of them. Most of the time, by the time the camera caught up, the guy was on the ground.
And I like seeing people tasered.
Do you think they just do it like that after snaping their fingers ? There is a whole preparation before, as you said above, it's tactically planned. They are not aggressed, they are the ones acting...
When you are the one aggressed, it most of the time ends up very wrong for you. Especially if you resist. The only case where you have nothing to lose is if you are sure that your aggressors actually want to kill you...
Not saying that capsuleers doing martial arts is wrong, of course not. It can prove interesting ICly. I have even had my character try it once of twice with corpmates. But most of the reasons invoked just seem so out of reality to me that... I don't know vOv
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The way I see it, any kind of close-quarter fighting in EVE developed for use inside a spaceship or for that matter a station would have to be primarily designed to defend against drones, not people, because drones are the kind of boarders you'd have any reasonable chance of facing. You don't send a man to do a machine's job, and you definitely don't send a bunch of meatbags encumbered by all kinds of essential survival equipment into the corridors of a hostile spaceship, where they're liable to be flushed out, or gassed, or shot to pieces, or have artificial gravity on defense settings fling them about like cats in a tumbledryer. You send a machine, a tough machine, and if meatbags are involved in the action at all, their role is to sit snug in their cozy work stations aboard their own ship, from where they can puppeteer their electronic friends in reasonable safety.
It's the way I envision internal security onboard ships or stations to work as well, tbh. You catch one whiff of trouble, you evacuate the area to the extent in which it's feasible to do so, you close the bulkheads, you pump the area full of knockout gas or whatever, you turn the gravity settings up to eleven if you have to in order to keep the troublemakers put, and then you send drones in to clean up.
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The way I see it, any kind of close-quarter fighting in EVE developed for use inside a spaceship or for that matter a station would have to be primarily designed to defend against drones, not people, because drones are the kind of boarders you'd have any reasonable chance of facing. You don't send a man to do a machine's job, and you definitely don't send a bunch of meatbags encumbered by all kinds of essential survival equipment into the corridors of a hostile spaceship, where they're liable to be flushed out, or gassed, or shot to pieces, or have artificial gravity on defense settings fling them about like cats in a tumbledryer. You send a machine, a tough machine, and if meatbags are involved in the action at all, their role is to sit snug in their cozy work stations aboard their own ship, from where they can puppeteer their electronic friends in reasonable safety.
It's the way I envision internal security onboard ships or stations to work as well, tbh. You catch one whiff of trouble, you evacuate the area to the extent in which it's feasible to do so, you close the bulkheads, you pump the area full of knockout gas or whatever, you turn the gravity settings up to eleven if you have to in order to keep the troublemakers put, and then you send drones in to clean up.
Sounds like my last playthrough of FTL.
I think you made a mistake of thinking all boarders or all ships are Gallente. The use of drones to board or deter boarders is something I imagine a Gallente would do. However, not all ships are crawling up to their necks in drones. Amarr ships are operated by slaves and labourers and are unlikely to use drones to board. More likely they send Kameiras or Paladins to do it. Caldari will, of course, send their fascist jackboots considering that they are no fan of automation either. Minmatar? Unleash the rabid Brutor!
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Sounds like my last playthrough of FTL.
I think you made a mistake of thinking all boarders or all ships are Gallente. The use of drones to board or deter boarders is something I imagine a Gallente would do. However, not all ships are crawling up to their necks in drones. Amarr ships are operated by slaves and labourers and are unlikely to use drones to board. More likely they send Kameiras or Paladins to do it. Caldari will, of course, send their fascist jackboots considering that they are no fan of automation either. Minmatar? Unleash the rabid Brutor!
If that is indeed the case, Gallente are the only ones who have a reasonable chance at all of succeeding in a boarding attempt unless the enemy ship has been blasted into a derelict state beforehand (in which case it still makes more sense to send in drones rather than people).
I don't buy that, though. The Federation may be the faction most known for extensive drone use, but they hardly have a monopoly on them. If you can afford a spaceship (especially one designed for combat), you can afford to have drones on it. If you can afford highly trained and possibly cybernetically enhanced marines or Kameiras or what have you, you can afford to hire drone technicians instead, probably for much cheaper, and save your meatbag soldiers for parades or for dirtside duty, where such things as direction and force of gravity, breathable air, etc are reasonable constants and not arbitrary values easily manipulated by the flick of a switch or a moment of a capsuleer pilot's attention.
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Sounds like my last playthrough of FTL.
I think you made a mistake of thinking all boarders or all ships are Gallente. The use of drones to board or deter boarders is something I imagine a Gallente would do. However, not all ships are crawling up to their necks in drones. Amarr ships are operated by slaves and labourers and are unlikely to use drones to board. More likely they send Kameiras or Paladins to do it. Caldari will, of course, send their fascist jackboots considering that they are no fan of automation either. Minmatar? Unleash the rabid Brutor!
If that is indeed the case, Gallente are the only ones who have a reasonable chance at all of succeeding in a boarding attempt unless the enemy ship has been blasted into a derelict state beforehand (in which case it still makes more sense to send in drones rather than people).
I don't buy that, though. The Federation may be the faction most known for extensive drone use, but they hardly have a monopoly on them. If you can afford a spaceship (especially one designed for combat), you can afford to have drones on it. If you can afford highly trained and possibly cybernetically enhanced marines or Kameiras or what have you, you can afford to hire drone technicians instead, probably for much cheaper, and save your meatbag soldiers for parades or for dirtside duty, where such things as direction and force of gravity, breathable air, etc are reasonable constants and not arbitrary values easily manipulated by the flick of a switch or a moment of a capsuleer pilot's attention.
I like you to read this page:
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines
By the logic displayed in this page, we can say that since the Gallente invest ALOT in automation technology due to low number of military personnel in respect of civilian pool, they will have the tech to coordinate drone activities in their hallways to fight off boarders or to board.
Compared to the very, very old fashioned Amarr or Caldari. Amarr and Caldari systems use alot of human resources, and by diverting resources to human labour pool instead of automation, it means you are far more likely to find humans stalking their hallways. The Minmatar are not exactly very good at automation either, so they rely more on human resources.
And yes, contrary to popular belief, ship resources are not unlimited, so you can't just install drone defenses and then go home and get some snacks. What you can put in your ship is still very much limited by powergrid and CPU, as well as places to put the necessary devices for said systems. That means, yes, some ships may allow for efficient control of gravity and what not, but not ALL ships. Amarr ships probably doesn't have that in place at all and probably just throw slaves and Paladins at boarders until they go away. Minmatar is more likely to engineer deliberate workplace 'accidents' to screw with boarders. Caldari? Evacuate personnel to designated defensive position (chokes and armoury) and open fire.
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I like you to read this page:
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines
By the logic displayed in this page, we can say that since the Gallente invest ALOT in automation technology due to low number of military personnel in respect of civilian pool, they will have the tech to coordinate drone activities in their hallways to fight off boarders or to board.
Compared to the very, very old fashioned Amarr or Caldari. Amarr and Caldari systems use alot of human resources, and by diverting resources to human labour pool instead of automation, it means you are far more likely to find humans stalking their hallways. The Minmatar are not exactly very good at automation either, so they rely more on human resources.
And yes, contrary to popular belief, ship resources are not unlimited, so you can't just install drone defenses and then go home and get some snacks. What you can put in your ship is still very much limited by powergrid and CPU, as well as places to put the necessary devices for said systems. That means, yes, some ships may allow for efficient control of gravity and what not, but not ALL ships. Amarr ships probably doesn't have that in place at all and probably just throw slaves and Paladins at boarders until they go away. Minmatar is more likely to engineer deliberate workplace 'accidents' to screw with boarders. Caldari? Evacuate personnel to designated defensive position (chokes and armoury) and open fire.
The article you linked says there's quite a lot of automation onboard Amarr ships, actually. In any case, none of this really challenges my argument much. If you don't have boarding drones or even shipboard drones, fine. The sensible thing to do in that case is not to send human boarding parties. The sensible thing to do in that case is to not engage in boarding actions at all, because you don't have the tools required for the job. And if human soldiers are your primary defence against getting boarded yourself, the sensible thing to do is not to teach them how to disable other people, but how to disable boarding drones - because if they ever do get boarded, that is exactly what they will face. A few possible exceptions might occur in, say, Caldari vs. Caldari faceoffs, but I'd still put my money on the defenders coming out on top in most of those situations, too. Even with little automation, it seems incredibly easy for defenders to turn their ship into an absolute death trap for any hostile human boarding party that dares to set foot onboard.
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I like you to read this page:
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines
By the logic displayed in this page, we can say that since the Gallente invest ALOT in automation technology due to low number of military personnel in respect of civilian pool, they will have the tech to coordinate drone activities in their hallways to fight off boarders or to board.
Compared to the very, very old fashioned Amarr or Caldari. Amarr and Caldari systems use alot of human resources, and by diverting resources to human labour pool instead of automation, it means you are far more likely to find humans stalking their hallways. The Minmatar are not exactly very good at automation either, so they rely more on human resources.
And yes, contrary to popular belief, ship resources are not unlimited, so you can't just install drone defenses and then go home and get some snacks. What you can put in your ship is still very much limited by powergrid and CPU, as well as places to put the necessary devices for said systems. That means, yes, some ships may allow for efficient control of gravity and what not, but not ALL ships. Amarr ships probably doesn't have that in place at all and probably just throw slaves and Paladins at boarders until they go away. Minmatar is more likely to engineer deliberate workplace 'accidents' to screw with boarders. Caldari? Evacuate personnel to designated defensive position (chokes and armoury) and open fire.
The article you linked says there's quite a lot of automation onboard Amarr ships, actually. In any case, none of this really challenges my argument much. If you don't have boarding drones or even shipboard drones, fine. The sensible thing to do in that case is not to send human boarding parties. The sensible thing to do in that case is to not engage in boarding actions at all, because you don't have the tools required for the job. And if human soldiers are your primary defence against getting boarded yourself, the sensible thing to do is not to teach them how to disable other people, but how to disable boarding drones - because if they ever do get boarded, that is exactly what they will face. A few possible exceptions might occur in, say, Caldari vs. Caldari faceoffs, but I'd still put my money on the defenders coming out on top in most of those situations, too. Even with little automation, it seems incredibly easy for defenders to turn their ship into an absolute death trap for any hostile human boarding party that dares to set foot onboard.
I can give reasons for 'why board ships'. Amarr and Blood Raiders will want slaves. Might not have the drones suitable for the job therefore send human boarders. Sansha wants genetic stock. Probably send True Slaves to do it, which is still pretty vulnerable to CQC considering that they are still mostly flesh. Caldari might send human boarders if the ship they are boarding happens to belong to a rival corp and is carrying trade secrets.
And yes, turning ships into death traps is easy. There are so many ambush points and chokes it's not funny. However, when has that ever stopped the use of humans for the siege? If the boarder's only resources are humans, they will have alot of humans to throw into the firepit. Expect the boarders to outnumber the defenders by a significant number, and possibly very well armed and well armored. Anything less is doomed to failure.
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The way I write it, Druur has received melee combat training during her time in the military, but due to disuse she's no longer really good at it. Good enough to fight off a drunk or two in a bar, but not good enough to take down an experienced brawler. Similar, she still has the reflex to reach for her sidearm (a pistol of some kind, I left it intentionally unspecific), but she no longer carries one as she does not have the time to keep being good with it (though that might change).
Yes, pistols are tricky to handle - it's surprising how hard it can be to reliably hit a non-moving target only 10m away.
She misses her sidearm, though. And her military-grade combat body enhancements.
Apropos, one thing I noticed in the Wikipedia article about Combatives is that one of the three possible options to take is "disengage to regain projectile weapon range". And later on: "It is made clear that while combatives can be used to kill or disable, the man that typically wins a hand-to-hand fight in combat is the one whose allies arrive with guns first."
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I like you to read this page:
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines
By the logic displayed in this page, we can say that since the Gallente invest ALOT in automation technology due to low number of military personnel in respect of civilian pool, they will have the tech to coordinate drone activities in their hallways to fight off boarders or to board.
Compared to the very, very old fashioned Amarr or Caldari. Amarr and Caldari systems use alot of human resources, and by diverting resources to human labour pool instead of automation, it means you are far more likely to find humans stalking their hallways. The Minmatar are not exactly very good at automation either, so they rely more on human resources.
And yes, contrary to popular belief, ship resources are not unlimited, so you can't just install drone defenses and then go home and get some snacks. What you can put in your ship is still very much limited by powergrid and CPU, as well as places to put the necessary devices for said systems. That means, yes, some ships may allow for efficient control of gravity and what not, but not ALL ships. Amarr ships probably doesn't have that in place at all and probably just throw slaves and Paladins at boarders until they go away. Minmatar is more likely to engineer deliberate workplace 'accidents' to screw with boarders. Caldari? Evacuate personnel to designated defensive position (chokes and armoury) and open fire.
The article you linked says there's quite a lot of automation onboard Amarr ships, actually. In any case, none of this really challenges my argument much. If you don't have boarding drones or even shipboard drones, fine. The sensible thing to do in that case is not to send human boarding parties. The sensible thing to do in that case is to not engage in boarding actions at all, because you don't have the tools required for the job. And if human soldiers are your primary defence against getting boarded yourself, the sensible thing to do is not to teach them how to disable other people, but how to disable boarding drones - because if they ever do get boarded, that is exactly what they will face. A few possible exceptions might occur in, say, Caldari vs. Caldari faceoffs, but I'd still put my money on the defenders coming out on top in most of those situations, too. Even with little automation, it seems incredibly easy for defenders to turn their ship into an absolute death trap for any hostile human boarding party that dares to set foot onboard.
There's a few problems with that though, the first of which comes to mind that while the outside of the ship is heavily armored and shielded, the inside is a different story. Boarders don't need to rush to the center immediately to do significant amounts of damage. Second thing that comes to mind is that I'm assuming that, if you're piercing the hull in order to board anything, you've done so in some sort of suit that is resistant to the harsh vicissitudes of space. You can turn your ship into an automated death trap that you can activate at will, but odds are that before you've evacuated the ship, boarders would simply cut the power.
That wouldn't always be a problem, as if you're the one defending the ship, you've got goons for that kind of thing.
That's not always the case if you're the one trying to take the ship and what you'll do when you're on it. EVE the game may be very limited in the scope of things you can do, but EVE the setting is rife with cool stuff you could RP. Say you want a cool backstory for your ship, and you decided to stow on board, sneak and fight your way to the front, and take off in it rather than say, "Yeah, I bought it for 50m ISK I got from doing the same job for the same agents over and over again." A character could have originally been one of those boarders, and made his bones doing one of the most dangerous jobs in space warfare. Maybe while affecting repairs, a character had to kill a set of boarders starting with a piece of sharp shrapnel with electrical tape wound around one end. Blood Raiders and Sansha have a need not only to board ships with living hosts, but to then incapacitate them. There are lots of reasons for the interested storyteller that boarding scenarios and hand-to-hand combat might be important.
Mostly, if it comes up in the context of one of our capsuleers, it's a characterization element. Some people see the capsule as a haven, as a way to cheat death. So they're very paranoid about security and find time outside the capsule to make them feel vulnerable. Those people would likely not practice or need hand-to-hand combat. But to do that says something about the character.
Likewise, if your capsuleer has no problem braining a boarder with a spanner and had a long, storied career in doing things the personal way, your character probably knows and routinely utilizes those skills. That says something about a character, as well.
In all honesty, this stuff is a characterization element. We're not going to find unarmed combat to be useful in the actual gameplay of EVE, so I think it's important more to know this stuff from the standpoint of a character's background. I'd imagine the people with some kind of training to be high, though, as so many had military or police training or learned some style of combat or two by heritage.
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There are plenty of reasons to want to board a ship in a hostile manner in the EVE universe, and plenty of factions that probably have a lot of experience in these matters.
We have to get a little past the 'doesn't make sense' part of it sometimes, though; if we peer too deeply into that rabbit hole a lot of the IP falls apart immediately.
What makes for a good story usually trumps the 'what would likely happen' for me every time.
Vader and stormtroopers boarding the rebel blockade runner and having a shootout in the corridor is much more exciting than vader flooding the blockade runner with poison gas and a drone running in to finish everyone.
In my little corner of the universe I'd put the 'combat' on ships as a mixture of close quarters gun fights, occasional automated defensive systems or 'special' things happening, and lots of people being shot. It's all about balance for a good story, a few cool things and lots of cannon fodder.
I really need to get to work on my 'pirate' combat stuff I've been kicking around for a while :(
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Yes, I'm late to the thread.
I believe the technology exists - there are in existence comprehensive virtual reality devices, capable of simulating to the user a convincing set of sensations - the chronicle "Particle Tracks" (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Particle_Tracks_(Chronicle)) features this in the meeting between Yani and Muryia.
My take-away from that story (one of the few which I read and enjoyed) was that while this technology exists, it is anything but widespread. In fact, I can imagine tha plugging your ship into your nervous system only works because the total information flow is less than what a normal body produces. Capsuleers need training because the information is different, and of course because they need to learn how to reconnect to their own body upon unplugging, but I don't think that volume is the issue.
But even if we assume that there is technology capable of sustaining the information flow from the controlling human towards the remote puppet - you still need the technology to create such a meat puppet. As far as I read it, "Particle Tracks" covered only the capturing and mental replication of mental telemetry, not actual control of physical bodies.
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There are plenty of reasons to want to board a ship in a hostile manner in the EVE universe, and plenty of factions that probably have a lot of experience in these matters.
We have to get a little past the 'doesn't make sense' part of it sometimes, though; if we peer too deeply into that rabbit hole a lot of the IP falls apart immediately.
What makes for a good story usually trumps the 'what would likely happen' for me every time.
Vader and stormtroopers boarding the rebel blockade runner and having a shootout in the corridor is much more exciting than vader flooding the blockade runner with poison gas and a drone running in to finish everyone.
In my little corner of the universe I'd put the 'combat' on ships as a mixture of close quarters gun fights, occasional automated defensive systems or 'special' things happening, and lots of people being shot. It's all about balance for a good story, a few cool things and lots of cannon fodder.
I really need to get to work on my 'pirate' combat stuff I've been kicking around for a while :(
What would be awesome is if the Sansha just built a few brain-slaves into ten-foot tall walking killer Borg for boarding missions.
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Slaves are much more easily taken from sparsely defended planetary settlements, or simply bought on the open (or the black) market and then smuggled out of Empire space if desired. I just can't see boarding for the sake of random captives being a viable tactic to toss live people away on. If you're sacrificing a lot of live people in order to capture a smaller number of people, you are operating at a loss. As for trade secrets, I would think that in most cases, they would be destroyed by the crew before a boarding party could get to them.
As an aside (and on the topic of martial arts viability), while cutting the power of the ship you're boarding would certainly limit the ship's defenses, it would also cut artificial gravity utterly, meaning that any combat techniques relying on balance and footwork would be of severely limited use.
I do understand the "for the sake of cool stories" position, but I can't get myself to agree with it. Not in this case, anyway. I can't wrap my immersion around it.
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I like you to read this page:
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines
By the logic displayed in this page, we can say that since the Gallente invest ALOT in automation technology due to low number of military personnel in respect of civilian pool, they will have the tech to coordinate drone activities in their hallways to fight off boarders or to board.
Compared to the very, very old fashioned Amarr or Caldari. Amarr and Caldari systems use alot of human resources, and by diverting resources to human labour pool instead of automation, it means you are far more likely to find humans stalking their hallways. The Minmatar are not exactly very good at automation either, so they rely more on human resources.
And yes, contrary to popular belief, ship resources are not unlimited, so you can't just install drone defenses and then go home and get some snacks. What you can put in your ship is still very much limited by powergrid and CPU, as well as places to put the necessary devices for said systems. That means, yes, some ships may allow for efficient control of gravity and what not, but not ALL ships. Amarr ships probably doesn't have that in place at all and probably just throw slaves and Paladins at boarders until they go away. Minmatar is more likely to engineer deliberate workplace 'accidents' to screw with boarders. Caldari? Evacuate personnel to designated defensive position (chokes and armoury) and open fire.
The article you linked says there's quite a lot of automation onboard Amarr ships, actually. In any case, none of this really challenges my argument much. If you don't have boarding drones or even shipboard drones, fine. The sensible thing to do in that case is not to send human boarding parties. The sensible thing to do in that case is to not engage in boarding actions at all, because you don't have the tools required for the job. And if human soldiers are your primary defence against getting boarded yourself, the sensible thing to do is not to teach them how to disable other people, but how to disable boarding drones - because if they ever do get boarded, that is exactly what they will face. A few possible exceptions might occur in, say, Caldari vs. Caldari faceoffs, but I'd still put my money on the defenders coming out on top in most of those situations, too. Even with little automation, it seems incredibly easy for defenders to turn their ship into an absolute death trap for any hostile human boarding party that dares to set foot onboard.
There's a few problems with that though, the first of which comes to mind that while the outside of the ship is heavily armored and shielded, the inside is a different story. Boarders don't need to rush to the center immediately to do significant amounts of damage. Second thing that comes to mind is that I'm assuming that, if you're piercing the hull in order to board anything, you've done so in some sort of suit that is resistant to the harsh vicissitudes of space. You can turn your ship into an automated death trap that you can activate at will, but odds are that before you've evacuated the ship, boarders would simply cut the power.
That wouldn't always be a problem, as if you're the one defending the ship, you've got goons for that kind of thing.
That's not always the case if you're the one trying to take the ship and what you'll do when you're on it. EVE the game may be very limited in the scope of things you can do, but EVE the setting is rife with cool stuff you could RP. Say you want a cool backstory for your ship, and you decided to stow on board, sneak and fight your way to the front, and take off in it rather than say, "Yeah, I bought it for 50m ISK I got from doing the same job for the same agents over and over again." A character could have originally been one of those boarders, and made his bones doing one of the most dangerous jobs in space warfare. Maybe while affecting repairs, a character had to kill a set of boarders starting with a piece of sharp shrapnel with electrical tape wound around one end. Blood Raiders and Sansha have a need not only to board ships with living hosts, but to then incapacitate them. There are lots of reasons for the interested storyteller that boarding scenarios and hand-to-hand combat might be important.
Mostly, if it comes up in the context of one of our capsuleers, it's a characterization element. Some people see the capsule as a haven, as a way to cheat death. So they're very paranoid about security and find time outside the capsule to make them feel vulnerable. Those people would likely not practice or need hand-to-hand combat. But to do that says something about the character.
Likewise, if your capsuleer has no problem braining a boarder with a spanner and had a long, storied career in doing things the personal way, your character probably knows and routinely utilizes those skills. That says something about a character, as well.
In all honesty, this stuff is a characterization element. We're not going to find unarmed combat to be useful in the actual gameplay of EVE, so I think it's important more to know this stuff from the standpoint of a character's background. I'd imagine the people with some kind of training to be high, though, as so many had military or police training or learned some style of combat or two by heritage.
My character is accustomed to braining other dudes with spanners and circuit boards.
Slaves are much more easily taken from sparsely defended planetary settlements, or simply bought on the open (or the black) market and then smuggled out of Empire space if desired. I just can't see boarding for the sake of random captives being a viable tactic to toss live people away on. If you're sacrificing a lot of live people in order to capture a smaller number of people, you are operating at a loss. As for trade secrets, I would think that in most cases, they would be destroyed by the crew before a boarding party could get to them.
As an aside (and on the topic of martial arts viability), while cutting the power of the ship you're boarding would certainly limit the ship's defenses, it would also cut artificial gravity utterly, meaning that any combat techniques relying on balance and footwork would be of severely limited use.
I do understand the "for the sake of cool stories" position, but I can't get myself to agree with it. Not in this case, anyway. I can't wrap my immersion around it.
Here's the problem though. If you take slaves from sparsely defended planetary settlement, someone will notice. Possibly someones. Powerful someones. Capturing crew members of freighters or frigates out in deep space is more likely to go unnoticed. And slave markets got their slaves from somewhere. What, you think slaves grow on trees?
And I did say 'heavily armed and armored' didn't I?
And sometimes, that ship is just simply way too tough to crack and it's just alot easier to send boarders to wreck havoc and divert the capsuleer's attention for maybe a couple minutes to buy time.
Also, destroying trade secret is admission that the captain has lost. You fail to account for the fact that there's also pride on the line.
And who can say that the boarders didn't wear magnetic boots to deal with zero gravity? And who is to say the marines fighting off the boarders aren't wearing mag-boots either? And the lack of gravity doesn't stop the Brutor from smashing True Amarr face against sharp edges on the wall. And what about the part where the boarders meet marines while on the way to cut power? That situation, CQC has alot of value. Power doesn't cut itself, you know.
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http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=2999
Amarr Marine Counter-Boarding Team
Amarr Marine Counter-Boarding Teams are regarded as among the most elite units of their type across all four races. This expertise was developed not long after other states rediscovered warp technology. It occurred to senior Amarr military leaders that wars of the future would include ship-to-ship actions in space, to include the possibility of an enemy ship boarding another, as they had in millennia past when their ancestors sailed warships on the high seas. To that end, boarding and counterboarding training became a mandatory part of every Amarr marine's advanced infantry training. The development of this capability led to the development of highly-specialized equipment for use in "boarding ops," to include manportable high-speed welding gear, outer hatchway breaching explosives, and personal weapons for close quarters combat.
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Here's the problem though. If you take slaves from sparsely defended planetary settlement, someone will notice. Possibly someones. Powerful someones. Capturing crew members of freighters or frigates out in deep space is more likely to go unnoticed.
I'd be a lot more wary about angering the owner(s) of any random space freighter than the administrators of some pissant dirtling settlement on the fringes of civilization. To attempt to draw a real-life parallel: What draws the heaviest notice from the most powerful people - the capture of a random merchant ship by pirates off, say, the coast of Somalia, or the sacking of a random Somalian village? I think that's a reasonably fair comparison to make, unfortunate though the answer to the thought experiment may be.
And slave markets got their slaves from somewhere. What, you think slaves grow on trees?
They don't? Boarding crews apparently do. To answer, though, the vast majority of slaves in EVE probably come from other slaves. Slaves have been known to procreate, after all. The rest were probably taken in the aforementioned planetary settlements, or kidnapped in ways involving a whole lot less swashbucklery. It wouldn't surprise me if dishonest captains make a killing out of human trafficking, taking money from would-be refugees and selling them into slavery instead of taking them wherever they actually wanted to go. The amount of people taken as slaves in bona fide spaceship boarding actions should be miniscule.
And I did say 'heavily armed and armored' didn't I?
Of course. Which is all fun and games until somebody starts messing with the gravity settings.
And sometimes, that ship is just simply way too tough to crack and it's just alot easier to send boarders to wreck havoc and divert the capsuleer's attention for maybe a couple minutes to buy time.
That sounds more like a "desperate last resort" than "a lot easier", to me.
Also, destroying trade secret is admission that the captain has lost. You fail to account for the fact that there's also pride on the line.
If the success of a highly dangerous assault hinges entirely on the opposing commander being a complete idiot, the person ordering the assault tends to be either highly desperate, or a complete idiot him- or herself. And failing to destroy sensitive information about to fall into enemy hands is indeed idiocy.
And who can say that the boarders didn't wear magnetic boots to deal with zero gravity? And who is to say the marines fighting off the boarders aren't wearing mag-boots either?
I certainly can't say that the boarders and counter-boarders don't wear magnetic boots. They can wear all the magnets they like. I will, however, put forward the hypothesis that any attempt at close-quarter combat while wearing mag boots in zero-g is likely to look more like people dancing in slalom boots underwater than it's going to resemble any kind of martial arts technique known to humankind.
And the lack of gravity doesn't stop the Brutor from smashing True Amarr face against sharp edges on the wall.
We will have to disagree there, I think. Well, to be charitable, if by "doesn't stop" you mean "doesn't entirely rule out the possibility of", I will concede the point. But it does make it a whole lot harder.
And what about the part where the boarders meet marines while on the way to cut power? That situation, CQC has alot of value. Power doesn't cut itself, you know.
Quite, but in that scenario, all the fun defenses are still in play. Including fucking with gravity. The defenders can even choose to turn it off themselves, if it seems like a good idea to do so.
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Amarr Marine Counter-Boarding Team
I'm aware of these items. The fact of their existence in-game doesn't make the concept any less silly. Personally I take those boarding crews about as seriously as I take the tank of liquid honor I've got kicking about in one of my hangars somewhere.
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And again you seem to assume that you can actually mess with localised gravity settings. For all we know there is only ON/OFF and you could end up screwing with your own crew that way too. And considering how many years of space flight and space warfare the spacefarers of New Eden had experienced, you would think their boarders are also trained for these situations.
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And who can say that the boarders didn't wear magnetic boots to deal with zero gravity? And who is to say the marines fighting off the boarders aren't wearing mag-boots either?
I certainly can't say that the boarders and counter-boarders don't wear magnetic boots. They can wear all the magnets they like. I will, however, put forward the hypothesis that any attempt at close-quarter combat while wearing mag boots in zero-g is likely to look more like people dancing in slalom boots underwater than it's going to resemble any kind of martial arts technique known to humankind.
And the lack of gravity doesn't stop the Brutor from smashing True Amarr face against sharp edges on the wall.
We will have to disagree there, I think. Well, to be charitable, if by "doesn't stop" you mean "doesn't entirely rule out the possibility of", I will concede the point. But it does make it a whole lot harder.
I'm not entirely sure why we seem to be judging the topic of zero-g combat from the perspective of modern technology and someone not trained in it. Frankly, if the gravity is cut I'd be inclined to put the odds in favour of the boarders.
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And who can say that the boarders didn't wear magnetic boots to deal with zero gravity? And who is to say the marines fighting off the boarders aren't wearing mag-boots either?
I certainly can't say that the boarders and counter-boarders don't wear magnetic boots. They can wear all the magnets they like. I will, however, put forward the hypothesis that any attempt at close-quarter combat while wearing mag boots in zero-g is likely to look more like people dancing in slalom boots underwater than it's going to resemble any kind of martial arts technique known to humankind.
And the lack of gravity doesn't stop the Brutor from smashing True Amarr face against sharp edges on the wall.
We will have to disagree there, I think. Well, to be charitable, if by "doesn't stop" you mean "doesn't entirely rule out the possibility of", I will concede the point. But it does make it a whole lot harder.
I'm not entirely sure why we seem to be judging the topic of zero-g combat from the perspective of modern technology and someone not trained in it. Frankly, if the gravity is cut I'd be inclined to put the odds in favour of the boarders.
Especially considering the boarders are probably trained and equipped for zero g and brought knives, magnetic boots and personal thrusters and air supply for zero-g and vacuum combat.
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I don't see the difference between a trained team with proper anti-G / anti-radiation / antiwhatever suit and drones. Either way, if you mess enough with gravity or traps or whatever that can melt or smash the former, then the latter will not fare any better...
Edit : On the matter at hand to clarify i'm definitely not against capsuleers getting into crazy stuff where they put their lives in danger. If they want to go baseline in dangerous situations, it's perfectly fine, after all capsuleers are infamous for being completely nuts... The main immersion breaking thing is more tied to 2 things :
- A lot of players seem to have really fancy and fantasist ideas on combat and how it never go really wrong as long as they are "trained"... Or that it's just trivial... Even with all the training and gear, things can go wrong really quick in real life, even when it's just a drug dealer...
- And even if people are conscious about that or if it's actually me with all the crazy and fantasist idea about the randomness of that kind of things, if they are conscious about the actualy scary consequences of that, then those consequences never happen. Because nobody wants to have to deal with it. We just see countless capsuleers walking all around in dangerous situations daily, and magically never killed or else... As if players don't want to face the consequences of their actions. You know, like if you ignored all the dice rolls for critical fails any decent tabletop RPG..
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Perhaps... but the whole point of boarding in the first place, is that you do it when the opposing side is taken by surprise and/or faced with an overwhelming violence of action. Perhaps not so much in the 1800s, but certainly nowadays with how some VBSS (Visit, Board, Search and Seizure) teams operate, surprise and violence of action is the number one key to success, or a captain that (is forced to) accepts a visit.
Personally though, I would prefer human (?) boarding teams as opposed to drones. At least from what we see in the 21st century, drones dont use tactics, and cannot judge and analyze a situation. Maybe in New Eden they can.
Things going wrong due to the most simplest and stupidest things to the best trained is really evident. You'd only have to look at the French raid in Somalia to rescue a hostage, and the simultaneous Navy SEALs raid to see that while they are super trained, and are as professional as they come, the smallest of random events can fuck up the entire operation. Training, equipment and situational awareness limits the amount of random events you may encounter, but they still occur, all the time, despite all the training, equipment and support (because lets face it, these teams are not running a 10-man show, they've got a whole slew of support that got the teams there in the first place.)
Boarding certainly has its uses, but it certainly would not take the shape of "boarding" in Homeworld II where some random Marine frigate approaches and takes over your ship. Just like how paratroopers in real life, do not work the way games depict them of arriving from the skies in the middle of a raging battle. It is more likely that it would occur when the odds are so fully stacked in your favor.
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I'll exit this discussion before venturing too deep into YDIW terrritory.
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I'd say boarding can be incredibly useful in EVE for a very EVE-ish reason: it's one more thing you have to be prepared for. If you aren't prepared for a boarding party, or if you've only got a very basic minimum requirement, it's like every other weapon you can have that your enemy doesn't have a defense against. Imagine if a boarding party dropped inside the ship and set off an EMP charge. Does that mean all systems would need to be internally hardened? Would all bulkheads need to be reinforced to resist localized explosions from the inside? From the outside, a main battle tank is nearly invincible, but if you pop a grenade inside, you'll kill everyone inside it and do tremendous damage.
The effect is sometimes humorously referred to as the "chunky-salsa effect" in that if an explosion meets a wall but does not collapse that wall, the remaining force of the explosion reverberates back towards the source. It's why bunker buster bombs are so effective, as once they're inside anything designed to repel a force one way suddenly also repels it backwards.
So if boarders exist, it's probably because a boarding craft can bypass either the shield or armor. In the case of a battleship or something similarly large, especially an armor-tanking ship, a successful boarding party does not need to do much to sabotage a ship from the inside if they aren't immediately repelled. That might also indicate why the Amarr seem to be so good at it if it's a way to speed up a battle with something heavily armored.
It also would stand to reason that blowing up a ship and picking up its jetsam and salvage, you're not getting much. If you board and hijack a ship, you get all the cargo as well as the ship. In some cases where the crew complement is small, the internal security might not be robust, and the cargo is valuable, the added value of boarding it might be too good to pass up. Coupled with the myriad number of reasons you might not be able to just blow up a problem, I'd actually be surprised if there wasn't a good set of people with the techniques to handle boarding actions.
On the subject of drones, I'd say that it wouldn't be as hard to teach a drone how to fly in space and attack the blip as how to navigate the interior of a ship and engage in CQB combat. It might just be that humans are still better at that because they can improvise on the fly. Still, the Gallente seem to be miles ahead of the competition in the drone department ICly, so maybe their boarders and repelling teams are all drones and the rest tend to use real people.
Maybe it's less of a thing in EVE because capsuleer vogue is to treat your ship like a kleenex and they don't bother trying to board each other? It'd be fun if they put in a mechanic whereby a ship could actually launch a boarding party at another, so you'd have to have invested in manpower or technology to repel boarders or you'd be on a time limit.
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Derailed.
But w/e. We've been fantasizing about ship boarders since 2009 or earlier. Specially pirates. cause would rather have a ship and it's full cargo alive than dead, or the yummy, yummy tears of someone self destructing to keep us from having it (where they'd think we were crying instead, but it would simply me a 'reversion to old rules' for pi-rats).
Nothing to do with capsuleers knowing kung fu unelss a baseliner themselves can kungfu kick through a capsule and break it open without activating the neural snapshot mechanism.
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Starting a shard topic for this asap, because it's a great subject
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A capsuleer can control the massive amounts of information pouring into their brain when linked to a ship. Using a remote drone/cyborg shell remotely via an FTL router seems rather mundane by comparison.
Just need to make sure it's anatomically correct I suppose.
This.
Dunno how I've missed this thread thus far...
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A capsuleer can control the massive amounts of information pouring into their brain when linked to a ship. Using a remote drone/cyborg shell remotely via an FTL router seems rather mundane by comparison.
Just need to make sure it's anatomically correct I suppose.
This.
Dunno how I've missed this thread thus far...
Also what's to stop this ROV from being jammed and useless?
I have to imagine that quantum entangled communications are very limited in bandwith otherwise none of the eve ships would actually be piloted except via remote from lightyears away.
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Here's the problem though. If you take slaves from sparsely defended planetary settlement, someone will notice. Possibly someones. Powerful someones. Capturing crew members of freighters or frigates out in deep space is more likely to go unnoticed.
I'd be a lot more wary about angering the owner(s) of any random space freighter than the administrators of some pissant dirtling settlement on the fringes of civilization. To attempt to draw a real-life parallel: What draws the heaviest notice from the most powerful people - the capture of a random merchant ship by pirates off, say, the coast of Somalia, or the sacking of a random Somalian village? I think that's a reasonably fair comparison to make, unfortunate though the answer to the thought experiment may be.
And slave markets got their slaves from somewhere. What, you think slaves grow on trees?
They don't? Boarding crews apparently do. To answer, though, the vast majority of slaves in EVE probably come from other slaves. Slaves have been known to procreate, after all. The rest were probably taken in the aforementioned planetary settlements, or kidnapped in ways involving a whole lot less swashbucklery. It wouldn't surprise me if dishonest captains make a killing out of human trafficking, taking money from would-be refugees and selling them into slavery instead of taking them wherever they actually wanted to go. The amount of people taken as slaves in bona fide spaceship boarding actions should be miniscule.
And I did say 'heavily armed and armored' didn't I?
Of course. Which is all fun and games until somebody starts messing with the gravity settings.
And sometimes, that ship is just simply way too tough to crack and it's just alot easier to send boarders to wreck havoc and divert the capsuleer's attention for maybe a couple minutes to buy time.
That sounds more like a "desperate last resort" than "a lot easier", to me.
Also, destroying trade secret is admission that the captain has lost. You fail to account for the fact that there's also pride on the line.
If the success of a highly dangerous assault hinges entirely on the opposing commander being a complete idiot, the person ordering the assault tends to be either highly desperate, or a complete idiot him- or herself. And failing to destroy sensitive information about to fall into enemy hands is indeed idiocy.
And who can say that the boarders didn't wear magnetic boots to deal with zero gravity? And who is to say the marines fighting off the boarders aren't wearing mag-boots either?
I certainly can't say that the boarders and counter-boarders don't wear magnetic boots. They can wear all the magnets they like. I will, however, put forward the hypothesis that any attempt at close-quarter combat while wearing mag boots in zero-g is likely to look more like people dancing in slalom boots underwater than it's going to resemble any kind of martial arts technique known to humankind.
And the lack of gravity doesn't stop the Brutor from smashing True Amarr face against sharp edges on the wall.
We will have to disagree there, I think. Well, to be charitable, if by "doesn't stop" you mean "doesn't entirely rule out the possibility of", I will concede the point. But it does make it a whole lot harder.
And what about the part where the boarders meet marines while on the way to cut power? That situation, CQC has alot of value. Power doesn't cut itself, you know.
Quite, but in that scenario, all the fun defenses are still in play. Including fucking with gravity. The defenders can even choose to turn it off themselves, if it seems like a good idea to do so.
This post. How diabolically beautiful and very true. :D
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Here's the problem though. If you take slaves from sparsely defended planetary settlement, someone will notice. Possibly someones. Powerful someones. Capturing crew members of freighters or frigates out in deep space is more likely to go unnoticed.
I'd be a lot more wary about angering the owner(s) of any random space freighter than the administrators of some pissant dirtling settlement on the fringes of civilization. To attempt to draw a real-life parallel: What draws the heaviest notice from the most powerful people - the capture of a random merchant ship by pirates off, say, the coast of Somalia, or the sacking of a random Somalian village? I think that's a reasonably fair comparison to make, unfortunate though the answer to the thought experiment may be.
And slave markets got their slaves from somewhere. What, you think slaves grow on trees?
They don't? Boarding crews apparently do. To answer, though, the vast majority of slaves in EVE probably come from other slaves. Slaves have been known to procreate, after all. The rest were probably taken in the aforementioned planetary settlements, or kidnapped in ways involving a whole lot less swashbucklery. It wouldn't surprise me if dishonest captains make a killing out of human trafficking, taking money from would-be refugees and selling them into slavery instead of taking them wherever they actually wanted to go. The amount of people taken as slaves in bona fide spaceship boarding actions should be miniscule.
And I did say 'heavily armed and armored' didn't I?
Of course. Which is all fun and games until somebody starts messing with the gravity settings.
And sometimes, that ship is just simply way too tough to crack and it's just alot easier to send boarders to wreck havoc and divert the capsuleer's attention for maybe a couple minutes to buy time.
That sounds more like a "desperate last resort" than "a lot easier", to me.
Also, destroying trade secret is admission that the captain has lost. You fail to account for the fact that there's also pride on the line.
If the success of a highly dangerous assault hinges entirely on the opposing commander being a complete idiot, the person ordering the assault tends to be either highly desperate, or a complete idiot him- or herself. And failing to destroy sensitive information about to fall into enemy hands is indeed idiocy.
And who can say that the boarders didn't wear magnetic boots to deal with zero gravity? And who is to say the marines fighting off the boarders aren't wearing mag-boots either?
I certainly can't say that the boarders and counter-boarders don't wear magnetic boots. They can wear all the magnets they like. I will, however, put forward the hypothesis that any attempt at close-quarter combat while wearing mag boots in zero-g is likely to look more like people dancing in slalom boots underwater than it's going to resemble any kind of martial arts technique known to humankind.
And the lack of gravity doesn't stop the Brutor from smashing True Amarr face against sharp edges on the wall.
We will have to disagree there, I think. Well, to be charitable, if by "doesn't stop" you mean "doesn't entirely rule out the possibility of", I will concede the point. But it does make it a whole lot harder.
And what about the part where the boarders meet marines while on the way to cut power? That situation, CQC has alot of value. Power doesn't cut itself, you know.
Quite, but in that scenario, all the fun defenses are still in play. Including fucking with gravity. The defenders can even choose to turn it off themselves, if it seems like a good idea to do so.
This post. How diabolically beautiful and very true. :D
You'll love the conversation we're having about it now. This discussion has moved. (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5598.0)
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A capsuleer can control the massive amounts of information pouring into their brain when linked to a ship. Using a remote drone/cyborg shell remotely via an FTL router seems rather mundane by comparison.
Just need to make sure it's anatomically correct I suppose.
This.
Dunno how I've missed this thread thus far...
Also what's to stop this ROV from being jammed and useless?
I have to imagine that quantum entangled communications are very limited in bandwith otherwise none of the eve ships would actually be piloted except via remote from lightyears away.
What if you had a biological brain running a copy of that person's consciousness and networked with another instance of their consciousness in another body so they have a 'distributed consciousness' as it were? There wouldn't be the bandwidth issues then.
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Problem is there that you are assuming both consciousness-es would operate identically, in perfect sync. In fact, from the moment the separated they would begin to diverge into different people on account of their separate experiences... Unless you decided to have a continuous open link operating on a massive level of emotional, sensory, and cognitive inter-connectivity.
Putting aside that it isn't clear if such a link is feasible with the human mind or EVE's technology, such a link would probably take even MORE bandwidth than just running a simple remote platform.
I will also add that I remember a comment from CCP somewhere on the EVE-O forums where they suggested top-of-the-line, bleeding-edge-compactness fluid router would be the size of a largish suitcase; most models would be closer to a large home refrigerator, so just slapping one onto a human-size platform isn't a possibility.