Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Synthia on 07 Jan 2015, 14:24
-
A chance conversation in "out of character" channel today, brought up multiple clones. The topic of multiple active clones was mentioned, as was the issue of what happens to "the soul", in such occurrences. As was the issue of "consciousness".
Here is an interesting article, from several years ago:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/hyota-vasy-sought-for-genetics-crimes-of-the-highest-order/
"This means that there are now two copies of a singular individual somewhere in EVE, a crime of the highest magnitude which goes against almost every law conceived regarding the cloning technology"
Interesting, as it shows that 1. a clone can be made while the original still lives. 2. That the clone is an independent entity.
Theologically, what happened to "the soul" in this instance ?
In a chronicle with Sourou Foiritan and Mentas Blaque, there is this line:
"A body can't let out a scream if there's no mind to carry it."
When no response was forthcoming,Foiritan laid a hand on his shoulder, leaned close and said, not unkindly, "You just shot a clone."
So, you need a "mind" or "soul" or "consciousness" to animate a clone. But where do you get those from ?
And then, how do backup clones work ? Such as the one the Jovian had in the short story "Theodicy" ?
Back up clones are also featured in texts from several ingame missions, where someone dies in one mission, and returns the next. Non-capsuleer clones, this is.
As regards multiple copies of a singular individual, there is further evidence of that sort of thing occurring, from the Blood Raider Cosmos missions, in which some of the clones get up to some really, really strange activities.
"I need someone to help me retrieve one of my clones. He's stuck near the Pagera Manton, his ship pretty much destroyed by Kalorr's gang when it accidentally ventured too close to the Pagera. We must act quickly, before Kalorr decides to make a meal out of the guy. "
Agent has a clone of themselves, to do stuff.
"the Pagera is closely guarded by Kalorr and his small army of clones"
Kalorr Makur, was cloned from a corpse (no mind or soul or consciousness available there, surely), and today leads an army of clones. Of himself. He's also mad.
"They managed to convert a few of our pod clones to their side, and together they have made an audacious get-away from the slave pens"
"And good riddance to those traitorous clones."
Some slaves, convince some clones of Blood Raider officers and ship captains, and they all rebel. Wat.
Then, there is the mass cloning technology, as used by the ancient Takmahl people, which creates hundreds or thousands of clones at a time, all with minute variations.
But there doesn't seem to be much, or anything, to support the idea of one "mind" controlling more than one body.
Everything I can see right off, appears to be more along lines of each body is independent and an individual from the moment they awaken.
So if you were to clone yourself, you'd have a twin of sorts, but they'd be independent and not under your direct control.
-
So, you need a "mind" or "soul" or "consciousness" to animate a clone. But where do you get those from ?
Flawed assumption. You are equating the use of 'mind' in the source material with soul when there is nothing to indicate this.
A clone, by lore, just has a lump of gray matter in the head that doesn't take form until after the data transfer. A "blank" clone as it were. Without receiving data, and causing a generation of the correct shape and neural pathways, the clone is just an empty body. Once it has the data, received either by direct burn scan from a podded pilot or downloaded from a pre-saved computer file, it goes through the process to generate the brain and waken the clone as described in the cloning science article.
This has nothing to do with the soul, and its existence or lack of, and instead relates to the existence of a viable brain within the body.
The soul is a matter of belief between religious characters and ergo is something that can only be discussed IC, not OOC. There is no OOC concrete fact about how the soul works in regards to cloning, lore articles explicitly state that there are many beliefs.
A clone does not 'need' a soul to operate, when considering it from a purely secular and scientific understanding of the process. All it needs is a body and a brain with an active and viable neural map.
Backup clones work by saving the neural map data on a database. This is the same thing that is done with DUSTers. The data is kept in storage and only used when necessary. The data can be updated when necessary. Burn scanners in the pod are linked by quantum entanglement directly to the new medical clone brain by default, to make the transfer instantaneous and 1-to-1, but this is not a required thing for the cloning procedure. Any kind of backup would entail just saving that data to a computer file instead of using it straight away, probably done by lying on a bed in a lab, having a burn scan done, and the doctors simply saving that data to a computer first before then using a copy of it to animate a new clone and send the person on their way. (there is also the idea of a slow, soft scan that doesn't kill the originating body, but there is no lore support for that kind of non-fatal scan)
The idea of a single mind controlling more than one body is not really feasible on a wide scale. However, as shown with DUSTers, there can be a single database which is regularly updated by transmissions from the sleeper implant in the DUST's head. This is, however, a new technology still, unique to it. It works because the sleeper tech allows memories and only memories to be recorded to the implant as they are being made, and it is ONLY these memories (rather than the entire neural map) which is sent to the DUSTer's central database to update it.
Ergo, controlling multiple bodies directly at the same time is probably not feasible (theoretically possible with DUST tech and quantum entanglement allowing a continual streaming update instead of burst updates, but this is not realized as yet). What is feasible, however, is the regular updating of a central database with information from each currently-active clone (requiring regular burn scans or soft scans to save and upload the data). As far as I understand, this is how the Broker worked: Each clone operated independently, but their individual experiences were transmitted to the central identity.
-
Thank you for this, Synthia. :D
Edit: and Sam. :)
-
Confirming I am a soul-less multiperson.
-
The technical possibility is about as close to proof that there are no souls in New Eden as we'll get. (Or that it's lost in the cloning process to begin with.)
-
The technical possibility is about as close to proof that there are no souls in New Eden as we'll get. (Or that it's lost in the cloning process to begin with.)
Sami's belief.
-
As I understood it, it was a fairly prevalent belief in the Amarr faith, yes?
-
Yup.
-
Scientifically, I don't think it's possible, even by the standards of the most far reaching theoretical discussion on it. In Science Fiction terms....eh....maybe something like a transmitter or some such? But the individual controlling the clones would have to have one HELL of a powerful mind. The other possibility is an implant or brain rewrite having the individuals follow a certain set of actions or some shit. IF original does X, do X. That kind of thing. But then that isn't true control of multiple clones. TBH, that kind of technology, imo, is beyond what anyone in the cluster currently is capable of.
I'm actually reminded of a GITS 2nd GIG episode where someone ghost dubs their mind into clones, but the original is..well dead. Mind intact, but body couldn't take all the dubbing into clones.
If ghost dubing does that, imagine controlling more than one at once. Now on the flip side, controlling some kind of simplified android in the likeness of yourself....maybe, JUST maybe.
-
the existence of clone backups, makes you wonder why the burning scanner even exists, what good it even does. Since you don't 'need' to 'transfer consciousness' to a new clone, can just use whatever mumbo jumbo technobabble it is that records the backup.
Silly universe.
-
Cause then that ain't you. It looks like you. Sounds like you. Acts like you. But it ain't you. You will not wake up as that clone.
-
the existence of clone backups, makes you wonder why the burning scanner even exists, what good it even does. Since you don't 'need' to 'transfer consciousness' to a new clone, can just use whatever mumbo jumbo technobabble it is that records the backup.
Silly universe.
Because the devs removed mentions of soft cloning.
When you make a clone backup, it's a burn scan. When you jump clone, it's a burn scan. There's no getting around killing off your current body anytime you get your brain scanned. The only difference between the two is whether the data is saved to a computer for later use or used instantly without saving.
-
Cause then that ain't you. It looks like you. Sounds like you. Acts like you. But it ain't you. You will not wake up as that clone.
This is the exact same thing with every clone. Every clone is made exactly the same way, just at different time frames. A backup has the data archived for later use, a podding clone has the data used immediately after it was taken. Both use burn scans, both make the same kind of clone.
I've been trying to tell people this both OOC and IC for years: There is no such thing as a transferal of consciousness. That is not a scientifically valid concept. Whether it is a backup or a podding, you are making a digital blueprint of the state of your mind's neural map at the exact moment of death and replicating it into a clone. If you believe that a clone is still 'you', it'll still be you regardless of if it's from being podded or if it's from a backup. If you don't believe it's still you, it won't be you whether it's from being podded or from a backup. Both podding clones and backup clones are the same type of clone, made either instantly after death or saved for later. You either accept both as 'you' or you accept neither. Neither is more 'real' than the other.
-
Cause then that ain't you. It looks like you. Sounds like you. Acts like you. But it ain't you. You will not wake up as that clone.
This is the exact same thing with every clone. Every clone is made exactly the same way, just at different time frames. A backup has the data archived for later use, a podding clone has the data used immediately after it was taken. Both use burn scans, both make the same kind of clone.
I've been trying to tell people this both OOC and IC for years: There is no such thing as a transferal of consciousness. That is not a scientifically valid concept. Whether it is a backup or a podding, you are making a digital blueprint of the state of your mind's neural map at the exact moment of death and replicating it into a clone. If you believe that a clone is still 'you', it'll still be you regardless of if it's from being podded or if it's from a backup. If you don't believe it's still you, it won't be you whether it's from being podded or from a backup. Both podding clones and backup clones are the same type of clone, made either instantly after death or saved for later. You either accept both as 'you' or you accept neither. Neither is more 'real' than the other.
So unbelievably fucking much this. Continuity is not a thing. The difference only lies in the "lost time".
-
I don't remember what chronicles but there's been a few descriptions of the pod and transfer scenario as it happened. All of them described it as feeling themselves pulled across space. They experienced it. Saw it and felt it all before waking up. Scientifically possible? Hahaaaaa not in our lifetime. Science fiction plausible ? Eh. Why not?
SOMETHING SOMETHING INFOMORPH SOMETHING
-
I don't remember what chronicles but there's been a few descriptions of the pod and transfer scenario as it happened. All of them described it as feeling themselves pulled across space. They experienced it. Saw it and felt it all before waking up. Scientifically possible? Hahaaaaa not in our lifetime. Science fiction plausible ? Eh. Why not?
SOMETHING SOMETHING INFOMORPH SOMETHING
That's like saying that people seeing a white light when they are brought back from being clinically dead is proof that Heaven and the soul exist.
The science article on cloning clearly spells out how the process works (http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/scientific-articles/cloning/) (and explains what that 'feeling' is: It's the feeling of the brain's neurons growing into their appropriate places in the final stages of the creation of the brain).
"The precise shape of the dendrites and the potentiation level of the synapse, which together determine memories and skills, have to be fine tuned through a neural link. Impulses are sent through the link to stimulate further growth and shaping of the dendrites, until they fill in the paths formed with the activation process. In the final stages of this tuning, as the clone regains consciousness, potentiation at synapses is quickly adjusted to recorded levels, generating a feeling often described as one of memories "coming back"."
That exact same process of growing the clone and brain is done with backup scans, the only difference is that backups are generating the new brain out of data from a scan made earlier and saved on a computer, whereas the one immediately after podding is used... immediately after podding from data directly from the burn scanner.
-
Cause then that ain't you. It looks like you. Sounds like you. Acts like you. But it ain't you. You will not wake up as that clone.
My response to this ICly would be that the idea of there being a persistent 'you' in the first place is something of a misnomer. Consciousness is an emergent phenomena that occurs 'in the moment' the sense of having been the same person in the past is simply the product of memories, there's no 'real' longevity or persistence to what makes us, us. Our biological brains simply create that false sense of persistence because its good from a survival/evolutionary perspective.
What feels like 'you' only exists in the moment of the feeling. Who 'you' are is constantly changing.
As for the whole 'multi-person' thing which originally started the topic, my character is a multiple, she has 8 active bodies. They're all connected together so that the aggregate of the minds is Saede, instead of any one body. This is yes, highly illegal from CONCORD law perspective, which is kind of interesting from an RP perspective, and one I quite enjoy.
-
While the Broker is a colossal turboMarySue and I don't recall, or want to recall, the details of his many clone setup, there were some other things in the novels that were relevant.
Such as the whole plot with Falek Grange's clone being activated in the CRU, and becoming that guy who had amnesia, (and who was also cured of being evil, because he didn't remember any of his Theology Council education, which is ofc what turns people evil in the EVE universe).
the human mind is already bad at multitasking, I don't see it being possible, even with technosorcery, of controlling 2 or more bodies at once. If the Broker did that in the novels, I don't remember reading it.
-
the human mind is already bad at multitasking, I don't see it being possible, even with technosorcery, of controlling 2 or more bodies at once. If the Broker did that in the novels, I don't remember reading it.
Bit easier when you have more then one body's worth of brain-space, though still somewhat tricky, I don't see it as impossible, and its clearly possible somehow within the lore. Rule of cool and whatnot.
-
its clearly possible somehow within the lore.
source.
-
the existence of clone backups, makes you wonder why the burning scanner even exists, what good it even does. Since you don't 'need' to 'transfer consciousness' to a new clone, can just use whatever mumbo jumbo technobabble it is that records the backup.
Silly universe.
Because the devs removed mentions of soft cloning.
When you make a clone backup, it's a burn scan. When you jump clone, it's a burn scan. There's no getting around killing off your current body anytime you get your brain scanned. The only difference between the two is whether the data is saved to a computer for later use or used instantly without saving.
Reading this at work, but, pretty sure source mentions soft clones
-
its clearly possible somehow within the lore.
source.
You mentioned it in your own post :P
And honestly? I really don't particularly care if I'm breaking some lore rule by doing it. There's plenty of other things I'm sure I'm doing wrong too.
-
Now if only other people could get away with "doing it wrong."
-
Now if only other people could get away with "doing it wrong."
Just embrace your wrongness. Become one with the bad.
-
*does things wrongly with Saede*
-
Now if only other people could get away with "doing it wrong."
Just embrace your wrongness. Become one with the bad.
I meant others who give a fuck. I give a fuck about those who give a fuck. I do not give a fuck about myself though....
Fuck
-
the existence of clone backups, makes you wonder why the burning scanner even exists, what good it even does. Since you don't 'need' to 'transfer consciousness' to a new clone, can just use whatever mumbo jumbo technobabble it is that records the backup.
Silly universe.
Because the devs removed mentions of soft cloning.
When you make a clone backup, it's a burn scan. When you jump clone, it's a burn scan. There's no getting around killing off your current body anytime you get your brain scanned. The only difference between the two is whether the data is saved to a computer for later use or used instantly without saving.
Reading this at work, but, pretty sure source mentions soft clones
No. Source mentions backup clones. It does not mention soft clones. A soft clone is usually defined as a non-fatal slow scan (whereas a hard scan is a burn scan).
The devs have gone in the direction that all cloning requires a fatal burn scan.
-
How do you get a back up clone if all cloning is fatal?
-
How do you get a back up clone if all cloning is fatal?
You don't delete the copy after sticking it in a clone?
-
Well then you can put that in multiple clones, can't you?
-
Well then you can put that in multiple clones, can't you?
Yes. And as has already been said, there is nothing that stops people from doing this except a LAW. And laws can and have been broken.
-
OLD EVE LORE:
Soft Clone Scan: A fancy eve machine makes a slow and detailed scan of person A, right before they eat a sandwhich. The scan doesn't kill person A. The scan is saved in fancy EVE hard drive to be installed on a brain-empty, in stasis shell clone (person B) at a later time.
Person A eats a sandwich, and then gets food poisoning and dies.
Fancy EVE computer installs the stored backup of person A onto empty clone B, who wakes up with no memory of eating that sandwich or dying. Everything person A did after the slow scan is 'missing' from this clone B.
Hyper Illegal punishable by CONCORD wtf bbq: Install memory and wake up clone B while clone A is still alive. Now two independent instances of person A running around, derping up the universe. Basically this is not an option for RPers because they've said over and over again it just doesn't happen, etc etc. I don't buy this logic for the IP because what, space vampires blood farming is ok but two clones and it's a big issue? Plot fail.
Old Lore:
Hard Scan - in ur pod, bein podded, the instant the pod seal breaks, person A gets euthanized by the pod, and a basically instantaneous flash scan is done of their brain, and beamed to and installed in empty, waiting clone B. As far as person A is concerned there is no 'loss' of consciousness.
Here's where we can of course debate the super serrrius matters of continuity of consciousness, death, and continuance of soul, whatever. A subject for higher minds than me.
NEW LORE:
DERP DERP NO SOFT SCANS NO MORE. WE WERE UH, WRONG ABOUT THAT. HARD SCANNIN ALL THE TIME.
At least that's my interpretation of the retconned PF?
-
MY interpretation is "Our lore wasn't grimdark enough. Go kill yourselves on a regular basis."
-
MY interpretation is "Our lore wasn't grimdark enough. Go kill yourselves on a regular basis."
Should we petition CCP's lore team for abusive language? :lol:
-
Don't mind it at all. Casually killing yourself to get to your staging area without having to slowboat is another of the things that separate eggers from baseliners. A capacity and willingness to leave behind mortality and embrace immortality.
Don't like killing yourself? Shouldn't have become a capsuleer who dies on a regular basis anyway.
-
MY interpretation is "Our lore wasn't grimdark enough. Go kill yourselves on a regular basis."
Welcome to cloning.
-
OLD EVE LORE:
Soft Clone Scan: A fancy eve machine makes a slow and detailed scan of person A, right before they eat a sandwhich. The scan doesn't kill person A. The scan is saved in fancy EVE hard drive to be installed on a brain-empty, in stasis shell clone (person B) at a later time.
Person A eats a sandwich, and then gets food poisoning and dies.
Fancy EVE computer installs the stored backup of person A onto empty clone B, who wakes up with no memory of eating that sandwich or dying. Everything person A did after the slow scan is 'missing' from this clone B.
Hyper Illegal punishable by CONCORD wtf bbq: Install memory and wake up clone B while clone A is still alive. Now two independent instances of person A running around, derping up the universe. Basically this is not an option for RPers because they've said over and over again it just doesn't happen, etc etc. I don't buy this logic for the IP because what, space vampires blood farming is ok but two clones and it's a big issue? Plot fail.
Old Lore:
Hard Scan - in ur pod, bein podded, the instant the pod seal breaks, person A gets euthanized by the pod, and a basically instantaneous flash scan is done of their brain, and beamed to and installed in empty, waiting clone B. As far as person A is concerned there is no 'loss' of consciousness.
Here's where we can of course debate the super serrrius matters of continuity of consciousness, death, and continuance of soul, whatever. A subject for higher minds than me.
NEW LORE:
DERP DERP NO SOFT SCANS NO MORE. WE WERE UH, WRONG ABOUT THAT. HARD SCANNIN ALL THE TIME.
At least that's my interpretation of the retconned PF?
I've never seen an official denial of softscans existing. They just exist now in the same limbo they did before (not officially recognized, but not denied either) and have still been tacitly referenced by CCP actors and employees.
-
having multiple copies of yourself at the same time all under the control of 1 mind, is just lol.
like, what it means is, if you're at an RP location, what it says IC to the other characters, is "You are only worth 1/8th of my attention". If you had 7 other bodies roaming around, that is.
A touch rude, that.
Just like that bit in Watchmen, with Dr. Manhattan.
-
I remember a discussion about this on the EM boards way back. Arakady Sadik's player said he felt soft scan tech would be inconsistent with the general grimdark tone of EVE. Too Star Trek for his tastes.
I figured that if you soft scan prior to jump cloning (which would make sense given implants are not destroyed) then you are effectively murdering the previous version of yourself in that body when you return to it. Now how's that for grimdark?
-
Hmm. There is some truth to what LouDou said, perhaps.
"What was Saede doing while I was with her? Was she causing death and destruction in some system lightyears away? Was she telling a bedtime story to her sister?"
These thoughts have crossed Ché's mind, although not always because of the diverted attention, because Ché is also sometimes multitasking and spreading his attention even if he only has one body.
At any rate, I don't see it as ruder than using holo's while doing other stuff, or even physicaly talking to someone while also being active on your Neocom channels, and both seem to happen quite a bit.
-
I remember a discussion about this on the EM boards way back. Arakady Sadik's player said he felt soft scan tech would be inconsistent with the general grimdark tone of EVE. Too Star Trek for his tastes.
I figured that if you soft scan prior to jump cloning (which would make sense given implants are not destroyed) then you are effectively murdering the previous version of yourself in that body when you return to it. Now how's that for grimdark?
Ironically I always felt that Softscan cloning was the most grimdark version of cloning available in EVE: Unlike hardscanning, claiming it's the same consciousness as the one that 'died' is much more of a stretch, and the consequences of dying while softscanned (serious memory loss, time lapse, possibly having no way to figure out what or who killed you) lends itself much more to 'grimdark' stories.
-
Hmm. There is some truth to what LouDou said, perhaps.
"What was Saede doing while I was with her? Was she causing death and destruction in some system lightyears away? Was she telling a bedtime story to her sister?"
These thoughts have crossed Ché's mind, although not always because of the diverted attention, because Ché is also sometimes multitasking and spreading his attention even if he only has one body.
At any rate, I don't see it as ruder than using holo's while doing other stuff, or even physicaly talking to someone while also being active on your Neocom channels, and both seem to happen quite a bit.
It might be a very interesting story to write down the line. What is each Saede doing at any given point in time?
-
Reasonable arguments for softscanning still being a thing.
Multiple active clones is a big no-no, I think you lose your capsuleer license for that kind of thing? That's like CONCORD prime directive #1?
Maybe if you kept them locked up in an isolation ward and never told another living person about it ever? And murdered all the clone techs?
-
It is Merdaneth's firm belief that multiple clones of the same person are impossible. Due to the soul, a piece of the divine, being impossible to copy.
His belief is supported by fact. Capsuleers are not afraid to break laws if it suits their purposes, in fact, most feel quite above any law and certainly don't defer to the rules of Concord or the empires. But he hasn't met anyone who has multiple copies running. He also hasn't met anyone who feels that having multiple copies is a law that shouldn't be broken.
Ergo, there is motivation to make multiple clones, capsuleers don't find it immoral to do so, and the law cannot be enforced. Then the only reason something isn't happening because its impossible.
-
So, I'm actually doing it, I have multiple clones running around.
-
So, I'm actually doing it, I have multiple clones running around.
How do you get around the PF with this not being a thing?
-
So, I'm actually doing it, I have multiple clones running around.
How do you get around the PF with this not being a thing?
The PF is really vague about it, given the incredible state of science and technology in EVE, it doesn't seem like all that much of a stretch. Not only is Saede a multiple (what I'm calling people like this) but there's in fact numerous multiples in Origin, including other capsuleer multiples. So you could look at it as a technology that was developed wholesale in Origin and its something new and unique to us, or you could look at it as simply a different application of existing technologies used in a way they normally would not be for legal reasons.
Basically, I don't worry about it too much, Origin exists in something of a bubble with its own 'PF' if you will attached to it. It doesn't exist entirely within the bounds of EVE lore in a number of ways. It is what it is.
-
So, I'm actually doing it, I have multiple clones running around.
If the thing ever comes up, Merdaneth will ask for a demonstration.
With clone cost reduced to zero, Merdaneth is up for making several thousand.
-
PF isn't vague about it, though. You can't do regular and continuous updating/streaming of clone brains. The tech is too big, and too destructive. Every time you scan it'd destroy the brains. The only tech that is able to record brain activity on an active and non-destructive basis in a form small enough to fit in the head is the sleeper implant, which is why it was such a big deal. But the sleeper implant isn't usable with capsuleer implants.
The only way the idea would work would be in a slower, burst process. You have your 8 clones, but they aren't streaming and uploading/downloading data constantly. They'd instead act individually for a set period of time, then at a scheduled time all go in, get burn scanned, and have 8 new clones made with data amalgated from all of the previous 8. So, for example, you coalesce the data every Sunday, destroying the current clones and making new ones that have been updated with all of the memories from all of the previous clones.
This isn't possible:
[spoiler](http://i.imgur.com/4ffa3nR.jpg)[/spoiler]
But this might be:
[spoiler](http://i.imgur.com/i0K7mgy.jpg)[/spoiler]
-
The issue with multiple clones is an interesting theme we see a bit in modern scifi is that once you have cloned yourself and let all your clones go do their thing, they will stop being you pretty almost immediately and become new individuals, that are you in identity, but not you anymore otherwise. Which would mean that killing them to update them to your current state of brain would be rather atrocious, it's plain murder, and it's disturbing.
Or, you effectively have the multiple clones ala Peter Hamilton where it's not a clone = an individual, but several clones = the same individual at the same time, as I think it is the case for Saede. As much as I find it interesting, I wonder what stops her to create an army of her controled by the same mind, and piloting a whole fleet by herself ? The game would stop her to do that ofc, but lorewise ?
-
Or, you effectively have the multiple clones ala Peter Hamilton where it's not a clone = an individual, but several clones = the same individual at the same time, as I think it is the case for Saede. As much as I find it interesting, I wonder what stops her to create an army of her controled by the same mind, and piloting a whole fleet by herself ? The game would stop her to do that ofc, but lorewise ?
The fact that it's not possible to actively stream data back and forth between minds like that. If there was, there'd never be any reason whatsoever to use burn scan. You could just constantly stream data from your clone to the medcenter.
The only tech that can actively record the brain state on a constant basis is the sleeper implant. Again, that's why it was such an amazing discovery. It records all memories and then transmits those memories to the central database if the body dies. Hell, and the sleeper implant doesn't even record. It's essentially a bio-computer in the head that completely replaces natural cerebral functioning. The actual brain of a DUSTer doesn't even exist anymore except as a super-cerebellum.
-
I think the point you're running into difficulty Sami is the idea that you have to transfer all the data for it to work. Thats not so much the case. Its more like, well the Sansha are networked together? Its like that. All the different clones of Saede in a way are separate people, but they share a mindlink in real time.
-
Aha. If it's like that, then yeah I could see it working. Multiple individual Saede clones (which is definitely canonically possible=, each connected with a Sansha-style hivemind implant? That could probably work. In that case it's less a matter of all clones updating each other constantly with every scrap of perception, but more that they're hearing each other's thoughts. That sounds reasonable to me.
-
PF isn't vague about it, though. You can't do regular and continuous updating/streaming of clone brains. The tech is too big, and too destructive. Every time you scan it'd destroy the brains. The only tech that is able to record brain activity on an active and non-destructive basis in a form small enough to fit in the head is the sleeper implant, which is why it was such a big deal. But the sleeper implant isn't usable with capsuleer implants.
If you can broadcast and recieve a brain scan, you should be able to retain and copy it. And as such activate any number of clones with said brain scan. I wouldn't need continuous updates, I would only need a one-time scan. As long as your physical clone properties and a snapshot of your brain is available, you should be technically able to recreate a person at any time in large numbers.
-
PF isn't vague about it, though. You can't do regular and continuous updating/streaming of clone brains. The tech is too big, and too destructive. Every time you scan it'd destroy the brains. The only tech that is able to record brain activity on an active and non-destructive basis in a form small enough to fit in the head is the sleeper implant, which is why it was such a big deal. But the sleeper implant isn't usable with capsuleer implants.
If you can broadcast and recieve a brain scan, you should be able to retain and copy it. And as such activate any number of clones with said brain scan. I wouldn't need continuous updates, I would only need a one-time scan. As long as your physical clone properties and a snapshot of your brain is available, you should be technically able to recreate a person at any time in large numbers.
Well yes, you are able to create a large number of the same person at the same time. This wasn't what I was talking about. It is PF that making multiple clones of the same person at the same time is possible (see the news article linked in the first post of this thread (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/hyota-vasy-sought-for-genetics-crimes-of-the-highest-order/)), and there is nothing except CONCORD laws preventing capsuleers from doing this.
What the issue here is, the issue with what Saede is doing, is in keeping all of those clones constantly updated on each other's memories and personalities all at the same time, as some kind of super-person. Saede's just now said it's more like a mindlink than an actual 'one person with multiple bodies' thing, so her thing sounds fine to me.
-
Well, nothing stopping you except that running multiple clones at the same time ranks in the top 5 ways to get shut the hell down by CONCORD (somewhere in between "trying to make a rogue drone" and "trying to bombard a planet without a license").
-
What the issue here is, the issue with what Saede is doing, is in keeping all of those clones constantly updated on each other's memories and personalities all at the same time, as some kind of super-person. Saede's just now said it's more like a mindlink than an actual 'one person with multiple bodies' thing, so her thing sounds fine to me.
To me that's irrelevant, since I am casting doubt on the earlier possibility. I'm not convinced Saede can make multiple clones, regardless if she can keep them in sync. All PF that doesn't make sense I liberally ignore. 'Only laws are keeping capsuleers from doing so' simply isn't convincing argument by a long shot.
I'm stating right here if Merdaneth knew how to make multiple clones, he most certainly would. All attempts to do so have failed, despite sending a cluster-wide broadcast to all cloning centers, each time only one clone is activated, the other left lifeless.
-
Well, nothing stopping you except that running multiple clones at the same time ranks in the top 5 ways to get shut the hell down by CONCORD (somewhere in between "trying to make a rogue drone" and "trying to bombard a planet without a license").
It's also worth noting that Saede lives in a wormhole and generally, to the best of my knoweldge, doesn't leave wormhole space ICly.
-
What the issue here is, the issue with what Saede is doing, is in keeping all of those clones constantly updated on each other's memories and personalities all at the same time, as some kind of super-person. Saede's just now said it's more like a mindlink than an actual 'one person with multiple bodies' thing, so her thing sounds fine to me.
To me that's irrelevant, since I am casting doubt on the earlier possibility. I'm not convinced Saede can make multiple clones, regardless if she can keep them in sync. All PF that doesn't make sense I liberally ignore. 'Only laws are keeping capsuleers from doing so' simply isn't convincing argument by a long shot.
Right, so there's no point arguing with you since you'll just ignore any lore you don't like. Gotcha.
I'm stating right here if Merdaneth knew how to make multiple clones, he most certainly would. All attempts to do so have failed, despite sending a cluster-wide broadcast to all cloning centers, each time only one clone is activated, the other left lifeless.
You can make multiple clones. You do it with alts.
If you're saying he can't make multiple clones, then he simply isn't doing it right, because there is literally nothing in lore that says that multiple clones of a person is impossible, and many sources that say that it is possible and that people have made them. The way the whole process works leaves it open to multiple clones. Missions in-game have you save people's brain data to be used for cloning. EVE Source talks about how a DUSTer clone that gets abandoned on a world might be assumed dead and they'd just make a new clone elsewhere, unknowingly leaving two up at the same time. That wouldn't make the current one fall over and die, at all. The news post linked above shows multiple clones being active.
If Merdaneth doesn't know how, it's because you the player, have decided that apparently he doesn't know how to save a brain scan to file and use it to replicate multiple copies. And you can very well do that, mechanically, via alts. Dev responses to questions after the release of True Stories states that, yes, alts can be considered 'other clones' of the same capsuleer if the player wants (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4313563#post4313563). And yes, that means if you have multiple accounts then you could have multiple Merd clones at the same time. You could literally, right now, make a Merdaneth2 clone on an alt account and very well say that it's a second clone and go flying around with both toons at the same time. Anyone who told you you couldn't do that would be wrong. As far as I know, that's what Saede does--she actually has multiple Saede toons.
You want to know what doesn't make sense? Saying that making multiple clones isn't possible when every aspect of the process dictates that it is possible and can and has happened. Now, if you're only going off of in-game systems and ergo only counting podding and jump cloning, then yeah, you only get it on a one-to-one basis. But by lore it is very much possible, and if you want to replicate that lore by mechanics then you can easily do so with alts.
-
Oh yeah. And more in-game proof.
https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Drake%20Arson
https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Citizen%20Arson
-
Saede been reading "Ancillary Justice" :p
Here's my point. Yes it is a thing that is technically possible, in the PF, to wake up multiple simultaneous clones. Full stop.
Why doesn't everyone do this? Because this is the top #1 or #2 ilegal thing in the entire IP. Slavery? Who cares. Mass murder? Who cares. Multiple clones? WTFBBQ time all hands on deck. Every government, all of CONCORD will hunt you down take your capsuleer license, terminate you immediately.
So yes you could do it, but if you ever breathed a word of it to anyone, ever, or someone had evidence you would never be allowed to dock, use a stargate, use ISK, use your pod, etc. If you are willing to RP that you will never leave WH space even once maybe I could see it? I dunno. I'm really wary of this sort of YDIW discussions but I'd love to hear more of your rationale for this sort of thing?
Let's all stay nice here though this is good talk....
-
This is a bad area of the IP for me in general though, there's a lot of capsuleer awfulness going on that CONCORD and the empires doesn't blink at. I can shoot imperial navy and dock at their stations, etc. Be space bad and no one cares. The multiple clone thing is a bit game destroying though? Caldari Navy would just make 1000 copies of their oldest navy high SP titan pilots and put the super clones in all the ships. You could just take your best officers and make 1000 of them.
-
This is a bad area of the IP for me in general though, there's a lot of capsuleer awfulness going on that CONCORD and the empires doesn't blink at. I can shoot imperial navy and dock at their stations, etc. Be space bad and no one cares. The multiple clone thing is a bit game destroying though? Caldari Navy would just make 1000 copies of their oldest navy high SP titan pilots and put the super clones in all the ships. You could just take your best officers and make 1000 of them.
Yes you could. You flat out could do exactly that. EVE suffers from missing some of the truly staggering implications associated with the technologies we regularly use in the canon. It honestly greatly surprises me that no one has said 'fuck concord' and had multiple active clones before me. As for me, I'm public about, Saede 'came out' as a multiple on the IGS. If concord wants to do something about it, I live in J120442, they know where to find me.
-
I'm probably about to reveal my ignorance here but isn't the cloning infrastructure dependent on CONCORD? Would it even be possible to conduct a consciousness transfer that CONCORD didn't know about? If not then the reason capsuleers don't do it isn't just because CONCORD says it's illegal but because they actively control the systems required to maintain clones and consciousness transfers.
-
This is a bad area of the IP for me in general though, there's a lot of capsuleer awfulness going on that CONCORD and the empires doesn't blink at. I can shoot imperial navy and dock at their stations, etc. Be space bad and no one cares. The multiple clone thing is a bit game destroying though? Caldari Navy would just make 1000 copies of their oldest navy high SP titan pilots and put the super clones in all the ships. You could just take your best officers and make 1000 of them.
Yes you could. You flat out could do exactly that. EVE suffers from missing some of the truly staggering implications associated with the technologies we regularly use in the canon. It honestly greatly surprises me that no one has said 'fuck concord' and had multiple active clones before me. As for me, I'm public about, Saede 'came out' as a multiple on the IGS. If concord wants to do something about it, I live in J120442, they know where to find me.
That sort of RP rationale can be problematic though? We could just as easily ask saede to prove it and have two of you fly a ship at the same time in space? Or have two of you join a chat channel? This is a difficult road to go down.
There's plenty of things we do with characters that the game doesn't represent, though, I dunno. I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud here but this just sounds like one of those things that is way outside of mutually acknowledged community world building?
The PF seems pretty clear this is a thing you can't do without being deaded by all the governments everywhere?
I also don't support it because we have no evidence of any other PF groups doing this? Why would a player capsuleer have access to things the big 4 do not? All our tech is on loan from them pre approved by CONCORD.
-
I'm probably about to reveal my ignorance here but isn't the cloning infrastructure dependent on CONCORD? Would it even be possible to conduct a consciousness transfer that CONCORD didn't know about? If not then the reason capsuleers don't do it isn't just because CONCORD says it's illegal but because they actively control the systems required to maintain clones and consciousness transfers.
Something something something, blah de blah de blah, it is Forbidden By Law for CONCORD to order the destruction of all a capsuleer's clones, such that the next time they die in space it is for good.
Blah de blah de blah, why the hell would CONCORD allow the capsuleer officers of the pirate factions to register themselves as capsuleers in the "CONCORD database" of characters ?
Also people have said in the past, about having multiple active bodies at once. It was ages ago. Years.
And CONCORD won't do anything about it, because the game world does very, very little, about recognising anything that player characters do.
Example: Players move over a million rescued slaves to the Republic. Not the smallest twitch from any NPC entity. A NPC event actor gets some NPC freighters to move 1.1million slaves. BIGGEST NEWS EVER.
Breaking CONCORD laws means absolutely nothing, to the game universe, unless there's an event on. And even if there was an event on, the event actors are forbidden, by IA rules and policies, to actually do anything, other than type a few, consequence free, lines in local chat.
Look what happened when people shot the Republic actor during the Sansha's Nation events. There was a storm (not from the involved characters), and the consequences were reversed.
From one perspective, going "Hahaha, I'm breaking CONCORD law and they're not doing anything about it!" is little more than loudly going into every IC channel and typing "Guys, hey, guys, hey, stop, listen, FOURTH WALL FOURTH WALL LOLOLOLOL". After the first instance, it just becomes background noise with no RP value to others.
So yeah, someone has multiple clones. Like I said before, all that means that if you're rping with them, they've told your character that your character is not worth their character's full attention. Wow. So RP.
-
This is a fun area to talk about. For example if someone is an imperial loyalist they can go into a channel and yell "death to the empress god is dead!!" And face no in game consequences.
However in the lore, in the PF world of Eve that would be a very big deal, I'd expect that Amarr character to be in super big trouble the next time they left the concord protected capsuleer area anywhere in the empire. In a totalitarian theocracy you get burnt for that sort of blasphemy.
So we always have a divide between what we "can" do and what would actually be appropriate or feasable IC for player characters.
It just means I do a fair bit of eye rolling from certain types when I hear of certain behaviors or actions.
I have to sort of construct a concord bubble of capseer immunity around this stuff, which explains why matari rebels can dock in amarr prime, or slavers can visit the republic. Concord says hands off in concord controlled parts of the station. Yulai accord signitaries have to suck it up.
But that doesn't cover the pirate loyalists, so how do we justify sansha supporters docking in stations?
Its all a bit screwed up, but we try to make it work.
-
Sansha supporters like all pirate supporters are all players, and so independent capsuleers. The game world stops right there and doesn't go further. If you really want to stick to everything the game says, then trillions or even bazillions of people die in missions everyday, and CONCORD considers capsuleer pirate loyalists are a joke, just like you consider your own teenager going all satanist like a joke not really worth your attention.
And well, after all, look at it that way, it's not far from what we see : most players change allegiance all the time and act like independent capsuleers full of passing fads. And a few don't and are very serious. And CONCORD still doesn't care because form their point of view, they are still freelance independents. As long as they respect their sec status quota and pay for their licence...
You can find plenty of wonky explanations for ingame silliness vs what the lore says because we, as players, as much as we play in a sandbox where we have a lot of tools at our disposal, we actually have no tools at all to involve ourselves in the world we play in and live in a bubble set apart of everything. The game was not designed with the lore in mind and has never been.
-
So..New Eden:
Capsuleers are allowed to threaten planets, kill millions of law abiding crew and civilians (which are mostly not replaced by clones), smuggle slaves and torture them in starbases, place planetary industrial facilities almost anywhere they please, we're so smart we can't build/use a Toaster without ECAID approval (but we can be a Toaster, despite Sansha being almost the only unifying factor for the Big Four), but...walking around in multiple clones is THE big no-no nobody can get away with? (Edit: I just realized that the difficulty of terminating a Multiple might actually be a reason for CONCORD to ban it.)
If all of the above is not breaking the fourth wall, then I don't see how Saede's fiction could be. Although I am admittedly quite resistant/tolerant to what some might call derpery...I feel like this is an area where CCP could possibly actually use some counter-fiction. I think that CONCORD is not as powerful as many think it is, especially when capsuleers start to realize some things, like in part II of the Jita 4-4 chron.
Also, who is to say that CONCORD is not doing anything about Saede? Unless I see a DED guy saying so, I would not believe it. Maybe I would not believe it even if it was said. Why would you?
Sometimes we believe we see the whole picture because we get to read OOC knowledge, but forget we don't know about all the manipulations, motivations, actions and consequences that are behind the curtains. For all we know, CONCORD has some very solid reasoning behind not invading Origin, if they don't.
I see Saede's fiction as an extension of the lore, not as conflicting with the lore. And in some parts, better than CCP's lore.
Also, this rebellious fiction seem quite compatible with the capsuleer rebellion vs. the empires/CONCORD thing that Grumpy CONCORD Guy (or whatever his name is) was frowning about.
Origin:
Clones for all, AI's, Multiples, Networks...sounds like logical experimental continuation based on the sci-fi tech of New Eden, for some capsuleer with a rebellious streak. Wether the experiment will (be allowed to) succeed is another thing.
Watch this space.
Side note: I find the whole Darkweather Agent thing more "jarring", as I see the public existence of something with the appeal of the Kyonoke virus within Origin to be muuuuch more of a reason for a whole lot of interest of various powerful parties than the Multiple thingie. That is why both me and Ché would say "Get rid of it!"
-
Right, so there's no point arguing with you since you'll just ignore any lore you don't like. Gotcha.
Nope, I ignore lore that I cannot make sense of or lacks internal consistency. Compare it to using the Bible to guide your faith, but not taking everything mentioned there literally and flat-out rejecting the parts that don't make sense at all.
PF/Lore is simply not holy and immutable to me. Considering that lore has been retro-actively changed in the past, you should consider that lore certainly isn't a fixed thing that isn't open to interpretation or outright radical change. Even better, in a MMORPG like EVE, if the player base attaches itself to a particular idea, odds are that it will become a part of lore. Like use of latin phrases for Amarrian.
I as a player have decided that it is impossible to create multiple active copies because its factually impossible in EVE. Even if I should create several different account to simulate it, people still couldn't talk to 7 Merdaneth's at the same time, nor could he be involved in 7 PvP battles at the same time. Everything in the game says it doesn't happen. It is simply a way of finding an explanation why it doesn't happen. I can find such an explanation that fits for Merdaneth.
EVE is a fantasy world. There are no facts in PF. Its made up. That is why facts are even less relevant than they are in our real world. What matters most is belief.
-
I'm probably about to reveal my ignorance here but isn't the cloning infrastructure dependent on CONCORD? Would it even be possible to conduct a consciousness transfer that CONCORD didn't know about? If not then the reason capsuleers don't do it isn't just because CONCORD says it's illegal but because they actively control the systems required to maintain clones and consciousness transfers.
You can make unlimited clone bodies. No crime there. You can store brain scans. No crime there.
Once you put the two together, then its a crime. But by then its way too late to do anything about it. Even then, you could just use a scapegoat to put the two together.
If it is indeed a terrible crime as mentioned, I'll simply pay a clone tech 1 million isk to have two clones activated at once. Ooops, my mistake sir! And then your pilot would be forever banned as capsuleer? Or is the clone tech punished. Doesn't Concord have corrupt officials. Don't they ever make mistakes. And what then with the two clones? Is one arbitrarily killed?
In short: the whole "people don't do it because it is a worse crime than killing 1 million people" just feels idiotic to me.
It is way cooler to think that 'for unknown reasons people have not managed to create duplicate clones from the same brainscan' (barring some exceptions perhaps). Some weird quantum entanglement with human brain waves. Something else. Who knows?
-
This is a fun area to talk about. For example if someone is an imperial loyalist they can go into a channel and yell "death to the empress god is dead!!" And face no in game consequences.
However in the lore, in the PF world of Eve that would be a very big deal, I'd expect that Amarr character to be in super big trouble the next time they left the concord protected capsuleer area anywhere in the empire. In a totalitarian theocracy you get burnt for that sort of blasphemy.
So we always have a divide between what we "can" do and what would actually be appropriate or feasable IC for player characters.
We can make things up. You could have made up that Jamyl didn't die. And then you would be slapped around the head by many players with PF that says she did die. 'Look, its a fact, because CCP has written it!'. Then years later you're suddenly right.
Of course, if you claimed she didn't die, you would be looked at by many people oddly. And so you should be. The issue comes into play if OOC knowledge is used as immutable fact. I don't think we should do so. Its poor for healthy gameplay.
-
Oh yeah. And more in-game proof.
https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Drake%20Arson
https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Citizen%20Arson
You might as well be quoting the bible to me to claim that the earth was really created in 6 days.
I simply don't attribute as much weight to the 'word of God' from CCP that you do. I'm simply claiming that I see no proof of the sun orbiting the earth other than what is written by CCP. And I see a lot of proof that the earth is orbiting the sun.
-
Would it be OK to use an 'illegally activated clone in null sec' excuse to rp as being somewhere you are not instead of using the old 'interbus' excuse?
-
This is a bad area of the IP for me in general though, there's a lot of capsuleer awfulness going on that CONCORD and the empires doesn't blink at. I can shoot imperial navy and dock at their stations, etc. Be space bad and no one cares. The multiple clone thing is a bit game destroying though? Caldari Navy would just make 1000 copies of their oldest navy high SP titan pilots and put the super clones in all the ships. You could just take your best officers and make 1000 of them.
Yes you could. You flat out could do exactly that. EVE suffers from missing some of the truly staggering implications associated with the technologies we regularly use in the canon. It honestly greatly surprises me that no one has said 'fuck concord' and had multiple active clones before me. As for me, I'm public about, Saede 'came out' as a multiple on the IGS. If concord wants to do something about it, I live in J120442, they know where to find me.
I choose to believe that Saede never operates more than a single clone at once in Concord space. When I see her piloting two ships in the same place at once, I'll think differently.
-
She actually only has one clone who does her piloting.
Its like this:
She has one clone that never leaves her pod, ever. That clone is probably mostly brain and some emaciated organs. Its doubtful that body could survive for long outside of the pod.
She has one body that is essentially a 'toy.' this is the body other capsuleers are most likely to run into. Its entirely cybernetic save for her brain, and is loaded with all sorts of tools and gadgets. This body tends to be the one she is the most careful of, since its expensive and not super robust.
She has one body that serves as the 'captain' of the ship she's currently pod piloting. This body is mostly biological with a few augments to allow her to better interface with the ship, but its essentially a public relations position, its good for moral to see Saede around in the flesh then to just have her be a disembodied voice or hologram. (That's her thinking behind it anyway)
She has one all out combat body, designed from the ground up to be a weapon. Almost no one ever actually sees this body, but its around. This body is more biological then her toy body, but its just as heavily modified, the modifications just aren't all non-biological.
And she has three other bodies, very basic, entirely biological save for a few implants, that are designed to be disposable.
At any given time, 2 or 3 Saede's are in Known Space. Most of the time, its the disposable bodies that are about, thus if they are found out and destroyed, not a ton of isk is lost.
-
What prevents her to use more than one capsule clone ? Or what prevents Concord to shut her down ? The same plot hole that prevents them to shut down all capsuleers claiming to be pirate loyalists ?
Just being curious about it :)
-
What prevents her to use more than one capsule clone ? Or what prevents Concord to shut her down ? The same plot hole that prevents them to shut down all capsuleers claiming to be pirate loyalists ?
Just being curious about it :)
Nothing really prevents her from using more then one capsule clone, but it would be a pita to have another Saede mechanically, I'm poor irl and I can't afford an identical alt account, lol. Hypothetically possible, but not exactly practical OOC, though maybe when I have more money, it would be kinda cool.
What stops concord from shutting her down is that CONCORD never actually shuts down anything a player does, even if you're shooting CONCORD ships in curse, even if you are espousing pirate loyalties, even if you're helping Sansha Kuvakei uplift people from highsec planets. CONCORD is not all powerful and their ability to punish is not unlimited.
-
The fact that CCP is unwilling to support the PF of what CONCORD can and would do to capsuleers who break their core rules is one of my great frustrations with the game at the moment.
That said, there is very real evidence that CONCORD can and will deal with people who piss them off badly enough (i.e., banned accounts).
-
Yeah that is also the implied explanation that I had in mind... Concord does nothing.
Although as much as you might not have the means to pay or support another account is purely ooc... How do you explain that ic ?
-
I kinda struggle to see accounts being banned as something IC at all, considering some of the reasons CCP bans people have absolutely nothing to do with the game. And even for a lot of the ones that do, you'd need a considerable dose of moon logic to explain CONCORD pseudomagically terminating someones ability to use a capsule over, say, using a racial slur while they let people actively murdering them go free.
Better to just suspend your disbelief.
-
Yeah that is also the implied explanation that I had in mind... Concord does nothing.
Although as much as you might not have the means to pay or support another account is purely ooc... How do you explain that ic ?
Maybe becoming a capsuleer is an expensive and intensive process, so much so that even immense personal wealth is no guarantee of a candidate being able to afford the procedure. Essentially the need to pay a subscription may represent a wider 'backing' to a given capsuleer's continued membership in our elite society. Self funding is a possibility, though would be prohibitive and our disconnect from worldly affairs might cause problems unless you have a house-staff managing your estate. National funding is clearly the province of naval/corporate capsuleers for the NPC factions, and so unlikely to be the root of our ascension. So benefactors from within the remaining groups of interested parties may be the means by which capsuleers insufficiently wealthy to capitalise on winning the genetic lottery can buy in regardless.
PLEX circumvents this by piping the money earned from being a capsuleer into paying off the cost of being one (clone staff, medical experts, guaranteed accommodation in all stations, new clones and all of the cleaning up after us that others have to do), but if you're not PLEXed then you're being backed somehow.
Capsuleers are expensive creatures when you think about it. Our bodies likely need a whole range of monitoring. Our deaths require new bodies, as do our hobbies, fashion choices (resculpts and so forth) and injuries significant enough that one would rather re-clone than heal. Legally we're a burden, with a swathe of trespass, murder and treaty violations following combative missioning, let alone military actions as a third party. Our very existence keeps a lot of people in work, and that cost all comes to a head when the month passes and your license is up for review.
Pay CONCORD to tolerate the bull-poop your existence forces them to deal with, or have fun in mortal society.
-
I don't mean any offense in saying this, but I've been continually baffled since day one by the insistance of Eve Roleplayers when it comes to reconciling everything in the game ICly.
CCP didn't think about this stuff, you know? I can bet you ninety-nine percent that their train of thought when making the PLEX system was, "Hmm, we need a name for these new in game time cards. What would vaguely make sense? Oh, I know, pilots licenses!" and that was the end of it. They didn't think about the implications of making the subscription system an in-universe system, or of the apparant contradictory omnipresent nature of CONCORD it would imply. They just thought it would be a cool idea (and/or a great way for them to make money) and did it.
It seems bizzare to me to draw radical and setting-altering implications about an organization based on what is very obviously done out of pure OOC pragmatism. I mean, sure, a couple of devs might have made offhanded comments vaguely validating it, but devs have made offhanded comments validating stuff that is, frankly, pure nonsense to anyone with a basic understanding of the setting on repeated occasions.
So when it comes to either believing CONCORD has crazy fairy powers which they for some reason only decide to use in weirdly specific and obtuse circumstances based on a couple of abstract sources very obviously rooted in out-of-game mechanical nessecities, or just shrugging and gliding over it based on the numerous more direct IC ones (missions) that suggest they don't, I don't really get why people insist on the former so sternly.
-
No offense taken, I just find it fun to speculate and build it into private RP. It doesn't break my RP for people to think otherwise, and this very firmly plants itself into 'mutual consent' territory as a topic to raise in a scene.
I just find fun in finding the most plausible fiction for the inconvenient reality, but there's plenty I place into suspension of disbelief, so I really can't speak out against that perfectly valid (indeed most common for a reason) approach to the elephant in the room.
-
No offense taken, I just find it fun to speculate and build it into private RP. It doesn't break my RP for people to think otherwise, and this very firmly plants itself into 'mutual consent' territory as a topic to raise in a scene.
I just find fun in finding the most plausible fiction for the inconvenient reality, but there's plenty I place into suspension of disbelief, so I really can't speak out against that perfectly valid (indeed most common for a reason) approach to the elephant in the room.
Ahh, well, that's fair. I didn't mean to poop on anyone elses roleplay approaches.
I'm sorry, I kinda got a little worked up about that for no reason. I had a frustratingly long discussion about it recently with someone much more stubborn.
-
Because "mechanics are IC, period" is a better blanket rule than allowing RPers to debate "that one thing is IC, but that other thing is OOC". It keeps everyone on the same page. It may at times be a non-sensical or silly page, but at least it's the same page.
When RPers start thinking they can pick and choose what is and is not IC, based on their own individual preferences, you get drama very fast.
-
@Gwen
No problem. The elephant in the room is a common sticking point, and as Samira points out, there are blanket approaches to deal with it. I personally believe in an approach where I can RP my interpretation in a microcosm (of people who have consented to a shared vision), ever ready to redact/retcon or ignore that microcosm should it be provably shown to be a false premise in the future.
IMO my favoured approach is largely inspired by latter interpretations of Auteur theory, or the interplay between creator, camera and audience. In classical Auteur theory, the director is argued to put his stamp on a piece of work, more so than the writer. Modern interpretations have extended this into a feedback loop between the director, the writer (hereafter referred to in tandem as the 'creator') the medium and an audience.
An audience's perception of a creator's work is influence by the medium (camera) and by the possibly false premises upon which they base their judgements. The greater the effort put in by a creator to explain every aspect of his creation, the less room for interpretation remains. Should the creation be 'fuzzy' due to design, neglect or an inappropriate medium, the audience gains the power to define potentially contradictory interpretations of the final product. If left unattended, these premises may themselves become canonical to sub-groups.
In a less extreme end-result, the creator observes the interpretations of the audience, interacting with them (if infrequently) and quashing the outright implausible (in the creator's vision) or fostering the possible. In this way, the audience feeds back onto the creator, influencing any progressive creation or iteration that they might engage in.
To turn a phrase: "so long as one is willing to accept that the majority of their active output will be put onto the scrapheap of ideas, one has the power to lay a brushstroke on a master piece without ever having played a true role in it's creation" - be prepared for your interpretation to be wrong, but if you wish to influence the creation of content your interpretation will have value (on or off of the scrapheap).
For the record, I consider suspension of disbelief itself to be input. Having participated in the world, even if choosing not to address the gaps and fallacies, is input in and of itself. Opting not to question the creator of a product is itself feedback, arguably of the most positive kind (it may be interpreted as 'nothing is wrong' with no room for interpretation of that message).
-
Because "mechanics are IC, period" is a better blanket rule than allowing RPers to debate "that one thing is IC, but that other thing is OOC".
When RPers start thinking they can debate what is and is not IC, you get drama very fast.
The idea of applying "blanket rules" to roleplayers is kinda crazy on any level, in my opinion. If anything, attempts at enforcement of a certain way to do things tend to lead to more drama, not less.
If my 11 years of MMO roleplay have taught me anything, it is that roleplayers will almost universally do as they like and bend both the game and the setting in various directions to suit their own perceptions and tastes, regardless of what anyone says or does about it. Eve very much included. Hell, this thread is a minor example in of itself!
Besides, we're already doing what you're saying. If I took that rule to it's logical conclusion, all our characters are just crazy people writing about themselves going to bars while staring at chat windows, and Capsuleers are literally not alllowed outside of their quarters ever based on that semi-IC blurb that pops up when you hit the CQ exit. Lines have already been more or less arbitrarily drawn by the community based on what's fun and what makes sense - I'm just wondering why they've been drawn here in paticular, since the idea of GodCONCORD is neither of those things.
-
That's going to extremes, Gwen.
There is still some interpretation available and necessary even with a largely blanket rule. Namely, in any area where the mechanic is contradicted by another official source such as another mechanic or clear dev/lore statement. In that case it is necessary for the community to determine how to resolve this discrepancy in official sources, until and unless CCP does it themselves.
PLEX, for example, has no contradictory mechanic, lore, or dev comment, and it has several statements that validate its existence. Ergo, there is no sense in ignoring or arguing against its existence.
The "door" issue, on the other hand, is a case where lore, dev comments, and even other mechanics (see the Thera station descriptions) all indicate that capsuleers can and do leave their quarters. Thus, interpretation does come into play there and players do have to decide how to resolve this conflict.
The key thing, is that it is the game world itself, and the game world's creators, that determines what is and is not canon. It is not personal opinion and preference by the RPers. As a counter example, in WoW you will get many, many players arguing that certain classes are not allowed to use certain abilities in RP, purely because it doesn't fit with their vision of the world and even when several other sources validate its existence within lore, because to these RPers mechanics is treated as a strictly OOC thing and can and should be ignored whenever it doesn't fit their idea of the world (for example, Heroic Leap for Warriors. Many RPers will call you a bad RPer for using it in RP, because they refuse to believe in a universe where warriors are anything other than normal people with normal skills. When told that it's right there in the mechanics, used by both PCs and NPCs, they will say, "well mechanics are OOC and so should be ignored!"). This will often devolve into the players arguing that lore or dev commentary that supports the mechanics is just in place to justify a silly OOC mechanic, and therefore should also be ignored. It's a slippery slope of players picking and choosing what they want to accept.
Players should never be allowed to be the ones to pick and choose what is and is not canon and what is and is not IC. If the content creators themselves create an atmosphere where there is room for interpretation, then it is fine to debate that specific topic because there is no straightforward answer. But when there IS a straightforward answer that is unopposed by any other official source, it is senseless and destabilizing to argue against it just because you the player don't like it or think it's wack.
-
Because "mechanics are IC, period" is a better blanket rule than allowing RPers to debate "that one thing is IC, but that other thing is OOC". It keeps everyone on the same page. It may at times be a non-sensical or silly page, but at least it's the same page.
When RPers start thinking they can pick and choose what is and is not IC, based on their own individual preferences, you get drama very fast.
They already do that, even for those almighty sacred ingame mechanisms that everyone tries to find his own explanation about them, completely far stretched half of the time precisely because those contentious game mechanisms make no sense...
So no, game mechanisms are not an unifying thing among roleplayers, far from it...
-
Samira, your vision only works when said content creators create content that actually make sense. CCP also has the laudable but bad habit to try to explain everything kinda icly even when they know it makes no sense.
I was part of an elitist rp community in swg that got into trench warfare with the rest of the lol rpers that held the belief that everything that was game mechanism was fair play and IC. Since as you probably know, SWG was a gross insult to the lore itself and trying to keep true to what makes sense lore wise was suddenly considered crazyness and elitism.
So yes now out of experience i ask myself sometimes how some things can be explained, and somtimes they can and people will agree on it, somtimes they will fight to the death because they disagree and then call each other crazy icly. Or a lot of times it just makes no sense no matter how you put it.
-
PLEX does contradict the lore, though - If I were to go run Angel cartel missions and kill CONCORD battleships for 12 hours, I would unquestionably cost them more then the cost of a PLEX in losses. So why am I not "banned" by CONCORD, who has that power? There is no possible answer that can be given that isn't either ludicrously contrived or fourth wall breaking. In my opinion, when one runs into something like that, the best possible thing to do is to ignore the cause with more obviously forced mechanics backing it up.
I also disagree with your opinion on a more general level. I think that the agency for deciding what is and what isn't part of the universe should lie solely with the players. When I played WoW, I actually literally did what you talked about there and didn't accept heroic leap ICly. Why not? Because it was ridiculous! It took serious scenes grounded roughly in reality which could have interestingly written and worked out resolutions and ruined them with awkward cartoonish superpowers that people used more often than not to godmode through guild RP events. That game suffered from very class and profession specific lore powercreep to insane levels, and if I had taken it at face value (or, indeed, been part of a group that did that) on every level I would have simply not enjoyed RP in it at all.
You could argue that this is my fault because I was roleplaying in a game where I clearly didn't like the tone of the setting or gameplay. But, honestly, things are never that simple - One can never make a judgement to roleplay in a game solely if it fits all of ones personal preferences. You have to take into account the gameplay, if your friends are playing, the quality of the community... All within a pretty darn small pool to pick from. Sometimes, the best thing to do is bend the game a little to how you like it - Even if that ends up alienating a few people who sternly disagree with your direction of bending on a personal basis.
That's why whole roleplay communities can never really get completely along, or exist in the same "world" in every sense - Even in Eve. But really, at the end of the day, that's alright, even if it's not really perfect.
All of this is of course my opinion, but I think having fun in roleplay is literally the most important part - Far more so then being bound by a bunch of game mechanics motivated rulesets designed by people who didn't give a hoot whether or not it would make for enjoyable roleplay. It's fine to follow that stuff to the letter if you enjoy it or it keeps you immersed, but expecting it to work for everyone is, in my opinion, bizzare.
-
I also disagree with your opinion on a more general level. I think that the agency for deciding what is and what isn't part of the universe should lie solely with the players. When I played WoW, I actually literally did what you talked about there and didn't accept heroic leap ICly. Why not? Because it was ridiculous! It took serious scenes grounded roughly in reality which could have interestingly written and worked out resolutions and ruined them with awkward cartoonish superpowers that people used more often than not to godmode through guild RP events. That game suffered from very class and profession specific lore powercreep to insane levels, and if I had taken it at face value (or, indeed, been part of a group that did that) on every level I would have simply not enjoyed RP in it at all.
It made sense in the universe. But apparently you didn't want to roleplay in that universe, and so you tried to discourage everyone around you from roleplaying in that universe too.
Do you do the same thing when you play FFXIV?
You could argue that this is my fault because I was roleplaying in a game where I clearly didn't like the tone of the setting or gameplay. But, honestly, things are never that simple
It looks simple to me. If you don't like the universe you're in, you either HTFU and accept the parts you don't like or you go play in a different unvierse that you do like. You don't try to force the universe into becoming something that it isn't. That's not your right, and it forces complications on basically everyone else around you.
Everything is a lot simpler when everyone RPs in the universe that is, instead of the universe that they wish it was.
All of this is of course my opinion, but I think having fun in roleplay is literally the most important part - Far more so then being bound by a bunch of game mechanics motivated rulesets designed by people who didn't give a hoot whether or not it would make for enjoyable roleplay. It's fine to follow that stuff to the letter if you enjoy it or it keeps you immersed, but expecting it to work for everyone is, in my opinion, bizzare.
I think it's bizarre to expect the universe you chose to play in to be bent over to cater to your personal preferences, instead of altering your own play to fit to it.
I have been RPing for a very long time. I've been involved in many, many of those arguments in the past. It was stressful and tiring, worrying over what should and shouldn't be accepted. Coming to the standpoint of 'mechanics/canon say it exists, so it exists' was probably the best decision I ever made in regards to RP. It gave me the comfort in regarding the universe as it was instead of getting angry over aspects of it I did not personally like, and it encouraged me to look into characters in a way that I had avoided before for precisely the reasons you list above and suddenly find that, by actually embracing the universe, even the parts I didn't like, I could actually have a lot more fun and be a lot more immersed in it than I thought.
It is, for me, the reason why I prefer EVE's style above most other MMOs. Everything is IC, everything I do is IC. All I have to worry about is playing my character, instead of agonizing over what I may or may not like. "I may not like it, but I accept it" is my motto and it resolves any internal dilemma I may have. I don't like Tony G.'s stuff, but it exists and is canon, so I accept it. I don't like some things in Source, but it exists and is canon so I accept it. Instead of worrying about what is and is not dumb, what does and does not make sense, I instead only have to worry about how my character will respond to its existence, good or bad. Instead of trying to change the universe, and by extension the opinion of every other player playing in that universe, all I have to worry about is changing my own characters' perceptions.
-
Samira, your vision only works when said content creators create content that actually make sense. CCP also has the laudable but bad habit to try to explain everything kinda icly even when they know it makes no sense.
I have long since stopped believing RPers know any more about what "makes sense" than the developers.
If the developers say something is canon, then it's canon, because it's their universe and they decide what does and does not make sense within it.
-
Oh definitely, counting on players to tell what makes sense and what doesnt is silly if you want to take that on a level above small groups sharing similar values. So trying to solve those issues altogether would be the best way really and i have even tried at times, but i know roleplayers and i know this community as well as i know myself and that will never happen.
But trusting ccp to tell what is canon and what is not doesnt solve the issue at all.
At some point you will always have someone asking icly and genuinely why, and the people will either come with silly answers that do not make any sense, or will just remain awkwardly silent. When i was still more or less icly supporting concord, i spent my time seeing the faction being sullied and defiled by idiotic rhetoric caused by the exact same thing and it just made me stop altogether that side of rp out of disgust.
Also, everything being simpler when everyone is playing in the same universe is rather unrealistic to me as evidencex by the fact that people are not even able to agree on it and all have their interpretations...
-
What stops concord from shutting her down is that CONCORD never actually shuts down anything a player does, even if you're shooting CONCORD ships in curse, even if you are espousing pirate loyalties, even if you're helping Sansha Kuvakei uplift people from highsec planets. CONCORD is not all powerful and their ability to punish is not unlimited.
That's like saying capsuleers can't leave their captain's quarters because the game doesn't show that happening. 100% disagree with this sort of logic.
We should be able to make some general and usually agreed upon assumptions about what sorts of things are and aren't kosher with regards to capsuleers and CONCORD.
We have to reconcile the fact that we can do things in the game that would most certainly get us killed, that we wouldn't be able to do in a more logically thought-out RP game world.
CCP has tons of PF that doesn't line up, and we've been (badly) trying to reconcile this stuff for years.
-
So we've got two hard line options here:
1) Handwave and ignore other RPers who do things we think are logically ridiculous (open blood raiders joining 24th crusade or gallente flying for Caldari Navy or whatevever example you want)
2) Believe everything that happens in game as IC and factual, then come to logical next step conclusion that NOTHING capsuleers do matters in the slightest since we aren't punished for fiction-breaking content. The Empires don't care, CONCORD doesn't care, we're all just irrelevant.
If 2 then what's the damn point of playing?
I don't think 2 is the case because half the time CCP tells us how 'important' we are and the lore tells us how 'important' capsuleers are.
TLDR I will ignore and handwave the hell out of things that break IC and break game for me.
-
If 2 then what's the damn point of playing?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld
There is still story potential in 2. Dystopian plots are a thing. Internal conflict over the inability to change the world instead of external conflict of actually changing it.
-
If 2 then what's the damn point of playing?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld
There is still story potential in 2. Dystopian plots are a thing. Internal conflict over the inability to change the world instead of external conflict of actually changing it.
That's a big ask for all RPers.
I'd rather imagine a more logically consistent IP and ignore the 10% nonsense CCP isn't interested in clearing up.
-
If 2 then what's the damn point of playing?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld
There is still story potential in 2. Dystopian plots are a thing. Internal conflict over the inability to change the world instead of external conflict of actually changing it.
That's a big ask for all RPers.
I'd rather imagine a more logically consistent IP and ignore the 10% nonsense CCP isn't interested in clearing up and the herpderp player stuff that doesn't fit in either.
Made an addition and thus agree 100%.
-
It made sense in the universe. But apparently you didn't want to roleplay in that universe, and so you tried to discourage everyone around you from roleplaying in that universe too.
I phrased that too harshly. I didn't go around actively telling people it was dumb and try to force that view on others in a general sense, nor am I saying it was objectively. I just didn't enjoy the more over-the-top cartoonish aspects of that game, (of which there were many once power creep set in,) so I sought out and played with people that agreed with me. The fact that I was very easily able to find said people kinda suggests it wasn't an unpopular opinion devoid of merit.
If you liked those parts, I'd never tell you that was the wrong way to play - Just not want that idea pushed on me as well.
It looks simple to me. If you don't like the universe you're in, you either HTFU and accept the parts you don't like or you go play in a different unvierse that you do like. You don't try to force the universe into becoming something that it isn't. That's not your right, and it forces complications on basically everyone else around you.
I don't mean to be rude, but says who? This isn't a NWN2 server or a tabletop campaign where a small group of people are all agreeing to follow a very strict set of rules to maximize the immersion and general cooperative nature of the roleplay. This is an MMO where the developers see gameplay as king and leave a handful of roleplayers to try and cobble together a workable understanding of the universe from a few usually lazily written lore pieces and a hodgepodge of game mechanics.
You're saying all these harsh phrases "you don't do this" and, "that's not your right", but who is this cow I'm butchering that sacred to? It's certainly not CCP - At this point, we could all start roleplaying as space elves and none of them would bat an eye. Hell, half of them seem to view hardcore roleplayers as something deserving of mockery. And it can't be other roleplayers, either, since at least 75% of the ones I've seen seem even less interested in conforming to the setting then I am, and usually deviate from it in far greater ways then just refusing to accept a tiny portion of the mechanics as IC.
So really, why does it matter? This is just a game, you know? Not even a paticularly great one. It doesn't deserve to be put on a pedestal in every respect.
The fact is that if I did take WoW, or, indeed, Eve, completely at face value, I would probably have enjoyed roleplaying in them a hell of a lot less - In WoW, I might not even have roleplayed conventionally at all. I didn't play that game because of the roleplay, I played it because a bunch of friends peer pressured me into it, none of whom were roleplayers. I didn't love the setting, or the to tone. But I really like roleplaying, and wanted to do it anyway since I was there, so I did. And you know, in the end, despite a bit of drama, I had fun! And to me, that's all that matters.
It's not as though I'm cramming these opinions down anyones throat or looking for a fight. I just reject the notion that mechanical purism is something everyone needs to follow. The more rules you make for yourself, the more uncomfortable a box you can be stuck in that prevents you from making the best of what you have.
I think it's bizarre to expect the universe you chose to play in to be bent over to cater to your personal preferences, instead of altering your own play to fit to it.
I have been RPing for a very long time. I've been involved in many, many of those arguments in the past. It was stressful and tiring, worrying over what should and shouldn't be accepted. Coming to the standpoint of 'mechanics/canon say it exists, so it exists' was probably the best decision I ever made in regards to RP. It gave me the comfort in regarding the universe as it was instead of getting angry over aspects of it I did not personally like, and it encouraged me to look into characters in a way that I had avoided before for precisely the reasons you list above and suddenly find that, by actually embracing the universe, even the parts I didn't like, I could actually have a lot more fun and be a lot more immersed in it than I thought.
It is, for me, the reason why I prefer EVE's style above most other MMOs. Everything is IC, everything I do is IC. All I have to worry about is playing my character, instead of agonizing over what I may or may not like. "I may not like it, but I accept it" is my motto and it resolves any internal dilemma I may have. I don't like Tony G.'s stuff, but it exists and is canon, so I accept it. I don't like some things in Source, but it exists and is canon so I accept it. Instead of worrying about what is and is not dumb, what does and does not make sense, I instead only have to worry about how my character will respond to its existence, good or bad. Instead of trying to change the universe, and by extension the opinion of every other player playing in that universe, all I have to worry about is changing my own characters' perceptions.
I've been roleplaying for a pretty darn long time as well - Coming up on 12 years, 14 if you count by ridiculous infantile neopets roleplay - And I've drawn the exact opposite conclusion. When I was younger, I used to follow the law of the setting to the letter, and get mad at people who didn't, pretty frequently. It led to stress, anxiety, tons of in game drama, and above all else, boredom. I ended up engaged in roleplay I found awkward and mismatched frequently, because the settings themselves were awkward and mismatched because the devs simply didn't care about that sort of thing.
I used to get mad about that, but you know what? That's their right. If they want to make a bunch of goofy fun stuff and not respect their own setting, (or in eves case usually profit motivated stuff), that's alright, because not everything has to be super serious or high effort. But it doesn't stop me from taking it seriously myself, imposing my own rules, and trying to find players who roughly agree with them to play with.
I understand your desire to keep everyone on the same page. On paper, it's a really cool notion, and would let everyone roleplay which eachother seamlessly with no conflict. But the reality is that expecting a game to be a "world" where all roleplayers see only and accept only one universal understanding of the setting will never happen. Every game, no matter how immersive or well thought out, and no matter how in tune the mechanics are with the lore, will have little cracks in the system or subjective elements that roleplayers will disagree on, and parts that certain people will just reject for no other reason then pettyness or "I don't like it". Eve is no exception.
And that's okay.
-
I'd probably have to agree with most of the points raised by Gwen. Expecting others to abide by your own opinions and standards of what should and should not be will always result in frustration with RP in an MMO I think. Expecting some kind of self-enforcement with others along those lines just seems remarkably arbitrary and unrealistic to me. Coming into anything with expectations that cannot be met is always going to result in having a Bad Time to me - whether it's Eve/Lore/Fiction just as anything else.
What point is there placing some kind of onus on others to act, behave, interpret, and expect the same things you do and then say the fault is theirs when they don't? I admit, I used to put some high expectations on roleplayers once, but you know, I realized I got frustrated a lot less once I lowered my expectations and no longer cared whether they agreed with me or not. I feel once I shifted things to far more realistic expectations of others to provide only b-grade level tabloid gossip usually about which capsuleers are fucking who; petty dramas about one inane thing or another; passive-aggressive displays by those desperately seeking, "Relevance" for themselves; sympathy quests; and ignorant racial epithets, I became far less disappointed because others would usually continue to meet those expectations I had re-adjusted to.
To me I think that's lead to a far more tolerant and accepting perspective on RP for me where others can RP as they seem to enjoy and choose; and I can incorporate what they do in-character as simply being that even thousands of years in the future capsuleers are still human in that they can't help but enjoy all the usual petty snarking about each other. That's actually lead to increased immersion for me in-game.
I mean I don't have much interest in that kind of RP these days, but you know, everyone has fun in their RP and approach it their own way and that's cool. For me, it's all just a matter of different perspectives and trying to tolerate and respect that as best as possible in the end.
Also: Eve isn't Real.
-
If 2 then what's the damn point of playing?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld
There is still story potential in 2. Dystopian plots are a thing. Internal conflict over the inability to change the world instead of external conflict of actually changing it.
That's a big ask for all RPers.
I'd rather imagine a more logically consistent IP and ignore the 10% nonsense CCP isn't interested in clearing up and the herpderp player stuff that doesn't fit in either.
Made an addition and thus agree 100%.
/me adds stamp of approval.
Also: Eve isn't Real.
But..but....I was there....
-
Your right to RP a Vampire Lesbian Spacedragon Princess Demigod ends where my ability to take you seriously begins.
In other words, you can RP however you like but unless it's supported by objective things like CCP Lore, I reserve the right to reject your reality and substitute it with my own.
-
Your right to RP a Vampire Lesbian Spacedragon Princess Demigod ends where my ability to take you seriously begins.
In other words, you can RP however you like but unless it's supported by objective things like CCP Lore, I reserve the right to reject your reality and substitute it with my own.
How can you take anything in Eve seriously?
-
Anyanka <3
-
Your right to RP a Vampire Lesbian Spacedragon Princess Demigod ends where my ability to take you seriously begins.
In other words, you can RP however you like but unless it's supported by objective things like CCP Lore, I reserve the right to reject your reality and substitute it with my own.
You sir, just won the thread.
-
IMO, if anyone for some reason wants to roleplay a vampire princess and can find someone else to go along with it, they should go nuts.
I mean. I'd question why they'd do it in a sci-fi game, but.
-
Reminds me of back in the day when a few people did this whole, "We're actually Cylons who got sucked through a wormhole and ended up in New Eden."
Looking back, I am saddened at the potential lost. I can only imagine what could have been now with Cylon-Sansha crossover fanfiction. Oh, that Double Toaster Rainbow.
-
Reminds me of back in the day when a few people did this whole, "We're actually Cylons who got sucked through a wormhole and ended up in New Eden."
Looking back, I am saddened at the potential lost. I can only imagine what could have been now with Cylon-Sansha crossover fanfiction. Oh, that Double Toaster Rainbow.
Kinda ironic given in the terms of new BSG every player character in New Eden is a Cylon.
-
Reminds me of back in the day when a few people did this whole, "We're actually Cylons who got sucked through a wormhole and ended up in New Eden."
Looking back, I am saddened at the potential lost. I can only imagine what could have been now with Cylon-Sansha crossover fanfiction. Oh, that Double Toaster Rainbow.
Kinda ironic given in the terms of new BSG every player character in New Eden is a Cylon.
Reminds me of how I'm always the only human (and sane man) in any party in any RPG sessions I attended IRL.
-
Treat it as you do real life. Saede says she has multiple clones, you don't believe her. Fine.
The express says eating grapes stops you from losing your memory. I'm not about to start eating grapes religiously.
Concord isn't omnipotent because if they were they'd tell everyone to calm the fuck down.
So the only reasonable thing to do is accept that things happen outside of their purview and they're basically just trying to slap a "Band-Aid" on things and do what they can.
-
The whole "Concord ain't all that" argument kinda falls flat if you ever try and do anything in High Sec. Or Low Sec. Or Null.
When you bear in mind that all the Null powerblocs are essentially Concord's renters and that major players have LITERALLY fallen because they didn't pay Daddy his rent, the idea that people could swan around in contravening literally the only rule they take seriously is a bit... ...silly.
-
That represents their response times on their fleet. Enacting a law and enforcing it aren't the same thing.
Shoot someone in the city center, people will show up. Steal money or deal drugs and the police don't show up on your doorstep the next day
Shades of grey Pieter
-
If the Gewns don't pay their Sov bill then their Empire gets shut the hell down. That instant. No fleets that the Gewns can defend against will move in to enact Concords will. No cease and desist letters will be sent.
Likewise, if Mittens doesn't pay his license fee, he loses the ability to fly a capsule ship. That instant. They won't send enforcers to destroy his ship if he undocks while unlicensed.
I get that some of this is game mechanics, but since truly enormous alliances have been shut down this way, and since the rules are that anything that happens in space is IC....
One has to assume that they can REALLY detect when you're flying ships in multiple clones. And shut you down. If you use multiple accounts to create similar clones and fly ships concurrently that way, well, the IC/OOC explanation would have to be that these are different individuals who have been modified to share a group mind. It's not like the Unit peeps and Sansha peeps don't do this to some extent already, is it?
One has to ask what the difference is between the State creating 100 versions of one certain Pieter Tuulinen from exactly the same genetic legacy and Saede creating 100 versions of herself in the same way? Those 100 versions of Pieter all had individual minds and personalities, even if they were genetically indistinct from each other. The different versions of Saede would have divergent personalities too - even if they were based on the same mindset copy, they would diverge from the moment they were quickened, unless they were resynchronised by some central facility.
All of which is creepy, but not illegal.
-
If the goons don't pay their sov bill, then the assumption is that a switch is flicked on a piece of software that deactivates everything they've been paying for. As we can't build stargates etc and make them function in game without CCPs permission you have to assume there's some complexity that requires them to be hooked into the neocom etc network, which is where concord oversight and fees come in.
The assumption that all cloning facilities are in concords hands and that it's impossible for an independent third party to clone somebody and change them sufficiently to ensure whatever monitoring software Concord has doesn't pick up on it is a pretty naive view.
Concord has areas of juristiction. If you're outside of them then you can do whatever you like, essentially. To shut Saede down they'd probably need reasonable proof and access to whatever facilities she uses to make her clones. You pilots licence isn't your permission to be a capsuleer it's your permission to use docking facilities and the neocom network. They're not shutting you down, they're shutting down your access. If you can't access the neocom and you can't undock then you can't do anything. You've not lost the ability to fly a capsule ship, there's no way they'd have that kind of control, but if you're behind on your fees scotty the docking manager is told not to let you undock. The reason pirate stations go along with this is presumably because of subsidies from the licence fee, etc etc etc
-
If we're going down this road,
then anything you say via your NeoComm is routing through CONCORD, as well as anything you do via capsule. That's how CONCORD knows when to show up, because you use your weapons and the weapon activation is connected via fluid router to CONCORD HQ.
If you said "I have multiple active clones" to anyone over neocomm then your puppet strings would be snipped.
The whole logic of the thing is bad on all sides for so many reasons not worth getting into.
-
My point is simply that concord lack omnipotence. There are loopholes etc.
-
If the Gewns don't pay their Sov bill then their Empire gets shut the hell down. That instant. No fleets that the Gewns can defend against will move in to enact Concords will. No cease and desist letters will be sent.
Likewise, if Mittens doesn't pay his license fee, he loses the ability to fly a capsule ship. That instant. They won't send enforcers to destroy his ship if he undocks while unlicensed.
I get that some of this is game mechanics, but since truly enormous alliances have been shut down this way, and since the rules are that anything that happens in space is IC....
One has to assume that they can REALLY detect when you're flying ships in multiple clones. And shut you down. If you use multiple accounts to create similar clones and fly ships concurrently that way, well, the IC/OOC explanation would have to be that these are different individuals who have been modified to share a group mind. It's not like the Unit peeps and Sansha peeps don't do this to some extent already, is it?
One has to ask what the difference is between the State creating 100 versions of one certain Pieter Tuulinen from exactly the same genetic legacy and Saede creating 100 versions of herself in the same way? Those 100 versions of Pieter all had individual minds and personalities, even if they were genetically indistinct from each other. The different versions of Saede would have divergent personalities too - even if they were based on the same mindset copy, they would diverge from the moment they were quickened, unless they were resynchronised by some central facility.
All of which is creepy, but not illegal.
From what I understood it is precisely what is totally illegal in CONCORD PF. Unless it has changed and stated otherwise in Source or whatever ( :roll: ), it was stated that you have to die when cloning, disallowing the very idea of several copies of yourself running everywhere. They indeed change and become someone more and more different the very moment they are created, but that's not the point. It is forbidden for your old you not to die before cloning. vOv
I don't remember if it concerns only capsule capable pilots or everyone in general.
-
If the goons don't pay their sov bill, then the assumption is that a switch is flicked on a piece of software that deactivates everything they've been paying for. As we can't build stargates etc and make them function in game without CCPs permission you have to assume there's some complexity that requires them to be hooked into the neocom etc network, which is where concord oversight and fees come in.
The assumption that all cloning facilities are in concords hands and that it's impossible for an independent third party to clone somebody and change them sufficiently to ensure whatever monitoring software Concord has doesn't pick up on it is a pretty naive view.
Concord has areas of juristiction. If you're outside of them then you can do whatever you like, essentially. To shut Saede down they'd probably need reasonable proof and access to whatever facilities she uses to make her clones. You pilots licence isn't your permission to be a capsuleer it's your permission to use docking facilities and the neocom network. They're not shutting you down, they're shutting down your access. If you can't access the neocom and you can't undock then you can't do anything. You've not lost the ability to fly a capsule ship, there's no way they'd have that kind of control, but if you're behind on your fees scotty the docking manager is told not to let you undock. The reason pirate stations go along with this is presumably because of subsidies from the licence fee, etc etc etc
We know that every pirate faction has its own cloning networks, of course. The same way each empire has its own. For independent capsuleers, aka ourselves, it's regulated by CONCORD...
The only reason that they do not cut short Saede licence is that they probably do not take her seriously ?
-
The problem lies in the assumption that every cloning facility would be regulated by concord...
How would that possibly be achieved?
-
My point is simply that concord lack omnipotence. There are loopholes etc.
My point is that there simply are NOT. Anywhere. The only places Concord don't enforce their rules are where they have decided not to set any. So long as your ability to destroy a Concord ship changes depending on how they enforce the rules on attacking Concord ships (according to system security level) you cannot EVER claim to be unchained
I'm not trying to be an ass here, but to say that not paying the fee paid directly to a subsidiary of Concord stands in for a reasoned decision to switch off all your own sov beacons is kind of silly. It's an eviction. The truth is that Concord is your landlord. They let you rent space that THEY own.
The only people who get to break the clone laws, that I've seen, seem to be Nation who use a completely different technology. If you use capsules, then you are subject to Concord legislation as much as you might want to pretend otherwise. Out of capsule, it looks like you can do what you want - but only because THAT uses so-called 'Soft Clone' technology, where the mindstate is read from a living body.
As for criminal faction capsuleers... Well... Since Concord doesn't terminate pilots with terrible Concord standing, or with very high Sansha, Gurista, Serpentis etc standings, why do we think they wouldn't let those people have their own capsuleers?
-
The problem lies in the assumption that every cloning facility would be regulated by concord...
How would that possibly be achieved?
The transmission of a mindstate from a capsule depends utterly on the Neocom system and the Capsule technology. Concord controls capsule technology.
So, you can clone empty bodies all day, I guess, just not put mindstates in them?
-
I don't see how you're claiming that concord "owns" the space. If Concord had the resources to effectively and enforcibly own a portion of space greater than that claimed by the four empires, they'd shut things down. There'd be no wars because Concord could hold everyone at gunpoint. At best they control the way the infrastructure operates and lend their expertise based on your prompt payment.
-
"0.0 space, sometimes referred to as null-sec, are lawless EVE regions outside of CONCORD control."
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/0.0 (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/0.0)
I've underlined the relevant bit
-
The problem lies in the assumption that every cloning facility would be regulated by concord...
How would that possibly be achieved?
Re-read my message : we all know it is regulated by other entities for NPC, starting with pirate organizations. For freelance capsuleers, we pass through CONCORD regulations, period, or otherwise we wouldn't have to clone everytime at an SCC medical bay.
Unless we don't ? Can that be argued ? I don't know... :/
My point is simply that concord lack omnipotence. There are loopholes etc.
My point is that there simply are NOT. Anywhere. The only places Concord don't enforce their rules are where they have decided not to set any. So long as your ability to destroy a Concord ship changes depending on how they enforce the rules on attacking Concord ships (according to system security level) you cannot EVER claim to be unchained
I'm not trying to be an ass here, but to say that not paying the fee paid directly to a subsidiary of Concord stands in for a reasoned decision to switch off all your own sov beacons is kind of silly. It's an eviction. The truth is that Concord is your landlord. They let you rent space that THEY own.
The only people who get to break the clone laws, that I've seen, seem to be Nation who use a completely different technology. If you use capsules, then you are subject to Concord legislation as much as you might want to pretend otherwise. Out of capsule, it looks like you can do what you want - but only because THAT uses so-called 'Soft Clone' technology, where the mindstate is read from a living body.
As for criminal faction capsuleers... Well... Since Concord doesn't terminate pilots with terrible Concord standing, or with very high Sansha, Gurista, Serpentis etc standings, why do we think they wouldn't let those people have their own capsuleers?
I think there is a clear distinction between freelance capsuleers (us) and faction capsuleers (as we know they exist). The latter probably are sheltered and given what they need by their factions that probably have even tighter leashes. The former, us, are bound by CONCORD. CONCORD doesn't care for freelance capsuleers to claim to be pirate loyalists. What those only do is murdering other freelance capsuleers in a world where they interact only with freelance capsuleers...
They are just kept apart in lower sec status not to cause too much trouble in high sec space towards their fellow freelance capsuleers.
-
"0.0 space, sometimes referred to as null-sec, are lawless EVE regions outside of CONCORD control."
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/0.0 (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/0.0)
I've underlined the relevant bit
Then why do capsuleers pay billions of isk to concord for little flags?
-
I think there is a clear distinction between freelance capsuleers (us) and faction capsuleers (as we know they exist). The latter probably are sheltered and given what they need by their factions that probably have even tighter leashes. The former, us, are bound by CONCORD. CONCORD doesn't care for freelance capsuleers to claim to be pirate loyalists. What those only do is murdering other freelance capsuleers in a world where they interact only with freelance capsuleers...
They are just kept apart in lower sec status not to cause too much trouble in high sec space towards their fellow freelance capsuleers.
But we pew pew baseliners every single day, and most CCP events deal with thousands of non capsuleers
-
Because of lore inconsistencies.
What annoys me a lot more is that CONCORD gets farmed in nullsec, so if they do own it... lol. But they do.
:psyccp: :psyccp: :psyccp: :psyccp: :psyccp: :psyccp:
-
I think there is a clear distinction between freelance capsuleers (us) and faction capsuleers (as we know they exist). The latter probably are sheltered and given what they need by their factions that probably have even tighter leashes. The former, us, are bound by CONCORD. CONCORD doesn't care for freelance capsuleers to claim to be pirate loyalists. What those only do is murdering other freelance capsuleers in a world where they interact only with freelance capsuleers...
They are just kept apart in lower sec status not to cause too much trouble in high sec space towards their fellow freelance capsuleers.
But we pew pew baseliners every single day, and most CCP events deal with thousands of non capsuleers
Baseliners belonging to NPC fleets that are probably cleared for action by CONCORD, since they all trespass the local law in some way.
Which becomes extremely problematic in the case of pirate missions in nullsec, which still doesn't fit at all, especially regarding those missions with CONCORD ships to shoot.
-
"0.0 space, sometimes referred to as null-sec, are lawless EVE regions outside of CONCORD control."
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/0.0 (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/0.0)
I've underlined the relevant bit
Then why do capsuleers pay billions of isk to concord for little flags?
I don't know. People say that x y and z in game and lore make concord omnipotent and that we have to follow CCPs lore. Well, CCPs lore says they aren't. I've made my suggestion as to why you pay money. Because it's presumably easier if you pay concord to let everything hook into their stuff than build your own infrastructure.
I'm with Merdaneth, it's like the bible, take the bits that make sense to you. You can't claim to know everything. I mean, do you guys know what the president does on his lunch break?
-
"Outside of CONCORD control" is a misnomer.
It is outside the influence of CONCORD's rapid-response system and its ability to respond instantly to aggression between capsuleers. Similar to lowsec in that regard.
It is not outside CONCORD's actual sphere of influence as far as independent capsuleers go, and it is certainly not outside of their reach as an entity. They do regularly send agents and fleets out into nullsec (try running missions for the pirate factions, or running the Angel arc), and our fees paid to them for sovereignty and the like are literally us paying for the privilege of 'claiming' we own the space.
CONCORD still rewards you for hunting designated "pirate" NPCs with ISK and sec status, even in places they don't have "control" in. That alone suggests quite a bit of monitoring capability - and at that level it would be surprising if they didn't have the ability to killswitch someone if they felt like it were necessary.
-
Yet it is still outside of their prime jurisdiction. And Wormholes certainly are. No Authority is ever omnipotent. They have quite a lot of power and capabilities yes, but claiming they're everywhere and in everything doesn't work. Not in terms of lore, not in terms of sanity and definitely not in terms of games mechanics.
We're talking about a galaxy with hundreds of inhabitable planets and billions of people. You have to suspend disbelief here and there. Unless Concord is actually God, there's going to be some way around them.
-
lol holy shit I didn't know this thread blew up so much. Christ, if someone wants to have a few extra clones in a small out of the way corner of the sandbox and ain't using them like a Chinese acrobatic team, who cares? Let 'em have their fun lol.
-
They're inside your capsule's soft/firm/wet/hardware, and the monitoring equipment built around that. They don't need to be anywhere else in a physical sense, when we have instantaneous FTL communication.
Choosing not to exercise a power or ability available to you does not mean you don't have it.
They can revoke our cloning licenses (bans). They can shut down our capsules (also bans). They can prevent us from shooting at things (planets outside of Dust-based OB), and seeing things (like proper civilian traffic).
That they often choose not to do things along those lines, does not mean that they cannot. It means nothing more than "they choose not to".
-
It is also canon by the old Drone Regions arcs that CONCORD can shut down stargates if they judge the territory within to be to dangerous.
The concept I've been operating on for a long time is that CONCORD allows capsuleers free-er reign in nullsec because so long as capsuleers are in a given region they are suppressing the pirate factions from freely operating in that area. This is the point the old chronicle 'Winds of Change (http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/tides-of-change/)' was trying to make.
Capsuleers may be wild guns, but we still operating within CONCORD's framework: No matter how much we wish not to see it, the leash is there.
The pirate factions, by contrast, are not. They can clone, operate their own capsuleers, build what they want where they want, and plan military operations that threaten the existence of CONCORD and its signatories. If we squat on those systems, even if are a violent, unpredictable lot, we are doing CONCORD a massive favor by hampering the pirates' ability to operate freely.
The second we take the step beyond, though? You'd better believe CONCORD yanks the leash.
-
I'm with Merdaneth, it's like the bible, take the bits that make sense to you. You can't claim to know everything. I mean, do you guys know what the president does on his lunch break?
Interesting choice of metaphor. The problem with it is that there are something like 40,000 denominations of Christianity and many of them disagree (violently) about which bits of the bible make sense to them and what to do when observable phenomenon disagree with the bible. If we're trying to reach a consensus then agreeing to disagree is a poor solution.
It makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to me that the so-called Nullsec Empires would submit to Concord for ANYTHING by choice. It especially makes no sense to me that the one thing they would agree to be bound by Concord over is sovereignty. Sovereignty and the ability to fly ships.
That's like saying "We're completely independent - except for the ability to project force and hold our own land."
I think Esna and Morwen are right. Capsuleers enjoy the freedoms they have because it suits Concord to grant them. We'll have them so long as the things we hold at bay are a worse threat than we are.
-
Exactly.
Whether we like to admit it or not - none of us is capable of portraying a true loyalist to a faction in EVE (Edit: within the confines of the game mechanics, that is - I'm not trying to make an assessment of individual roleplayers' abilities as roleplayers). If we were, we'd be NPCs or event actors. The very nature of a human player's primary interest in getting the most out of their monthly subscription costs is built into the lore of the player capsuleer in that way: we are fickle creatures who can shift our loyalties at a moment's notice. We are not trustworthy and cannot be depended upon in the long run.
You can say you are loyal to a given faction, and do things that ostensibly support them, but you will never truly be a part of that faction by game mechanics - militias are the closest, but still quite a stretch - because the game itself recognizes that players will do whatever they want to do in the end.
-
I think the real issue with CONCORD is that it is essentially the in-game manifestation of CCP rules and the justification or authority responsible for the majority of game mechanics. There's always going to be Fourth Wall issues because of that due to the discrepancies between fundamental mechanics and the lore written about them. They become difficult to reconcile because with CONCORD more than any other organization, their lore is intertwined the most with the meta of the game itself.
If CONCORD worked exactly as it should then honestly Eve would likely not be fun to play. Because yes, I'd love to pay a subscription fee, have CRC act like the NSA and red flag my character saying, "I support Guristas" in some channel and then end up with a DED assault team performing a dynamic entry into my CQ and saying I'm temp-banned for six months while my character is in Space Jail.
-
Except they wouldn't, because you're an unbound capsuleer (aka a player) and are probably going to declare your loyalty to the Republic the week after that.
And then the Serpentis. Then the Amarr. Then... you get the picture.
-
I'll reiterate the fact that I think trying to take every game mechanic as completely IC is nuts and makes the setting really boring and internally contradictory. CONCORD doesn't ban every criminal capsuleer because banning probably doesn't exist in the world, just in the metaspace that players occupy.
In every game, concessions have to made in the setting to mechanics to make it work. Logically, since Capsuleers can defect to pirate factions and actively start murdering CONCORD fleets, them having the power to instantly shut anyone down anywhere they want makes absolutely no sense. But banning has to exist for the game to function on a meta level, so the solution is just to accept that the fourth wall is breached a little bit there and not think about it. It is not, I don't think, to create some sort of mythos about CONCORD being an all powerful organization, when anything deliberately written as lore suggests that is not so.
Likewise for space fees. Everything in the actual written PF points to the whole "capsuleers slowly gaining the upper hand" theme, so it makes no sense thematically for them to be nothing but stewards to CONCORD.
Themes>Mechanics, in my opinion.
-
+1 to Gwen. TBH this thread is damn well near YDIW :/ kinda sad
-
Except they wouldn't, because you're an unbound capsuleer (aka a player) and are probably going to declare your loyalty to the Republic the week after that.
And then the Serpentis. Then the Amarr. Then... you get the picture.
I believe the prevalent thinking among the Inner Sanctum of the Assembly is: You know what, we've got 99 problems these days but what freelance capsuleers say they are loyal to isn't one.
Sure, I think CONCORD does have a degree of soft control over capsuleer technology otherwise there would be a lot of dead planets in low sec due to Titan pilots doomsdaying them for the lulz. The reasons CONCORD does not deal with every single issue or potential legal violation a roleplayer causes is because in the grand scheme of things freelance capsuleers are essentially self-contained among themselves which means more resources to devote to real potential existential threats like Sleepers, Nation incursions, and pirate/criminal cartels in general.
-
I'll reiterate the fact that I think trying to take every game mechanic as completely IC is nuts and makes the setting really boring and internally contradictory. CONCORD doesn't ban every criminal capsuleer because banning probably doesn't exist in the world, just in the metaspace that players occupy.
In every game, concessions have to made in the setting to mechanics to make it work. Logically, since Capsuleers can defect to pirate factions and actively start murdering CONCORD fleets, them having the power to instantly shut anyone down anywhere they want makes absolutely no sense. But banning has to exist for the game to function on a meta level, so the solution is just to accept that the fourth wall is breached a little bit there and not think about it. It is not, I don't think, to create some sort of mythos about CONCORD being an all powerful organization, when anything deliberately written as lore suggests that is not so.
Likewise for space fees. Everything in the actual written PF points to the whole "capsuleers slowly gaining the upper hand" theme, so it makes no sense thematically for them to be nothing but stewards to CONCORD.
Themes>Mechanics, in my opinion.
Themes > Mechanics, that's definitely my line of thought and has always been.
The issue with me though is that as the player behind a character, I am completely unable and clueless as to how properly play a role in an universe that doesn't make sense (unless said universe has a comedic premise that nothing makes sense ofc, which is not the the case for Eve, a serious AND Scifi setting). I have to make sense OOCly of something before deciding how my character is going to react to that, even for a character that will be clueless to something. There is of course the case of story hooks and things left unexplained in the aim of making you, as a spectator, wonder what's really going on. It kind of works for Sansha incursions and Sansha Nation as a whole, though i'm rather skeptic as if that's truly intended by CCP and just not another iteration of the stupid unchanging proxy war.
It ofc doesn't work for things like CONCORD letting capsuleers shoot their own NPC battleships and silly things like that. That's why you can perfectly say that your character will shrug it off as a proof of CONCORD stupidity, but 1) that's removing the very ability to be a CONCORD supporter, because supporting morons is stupid, 2) it's not very satisfactory, it makes the universe more stupid than it should. It makes the setting absurd, and as much as it can make Camus proud of it, well...
But all in all, both schools of thoughts are completely nuts. Either you take that concord is all powerful and you have issues, either you take that concord is not all powerful and you get even more issues. I'm ready to accept both premises as valid, but only if they make sense, which they do not. I'm also ready to ignore what doesn't make sense as long as we find a good explanation short circuiting the whole issue, like we often do for casualties of PVE missions (we ignore it, but we say instead evasively that it's probably just patrol duty, few skirmishes and occasional lone battleships or whatnot, so that's an alternative explanation). Just outright ignoring something may work for people, but for me, it doesn't. It just makes me want to quit altogether. I can't accept lore inconsistencies in my RP.
Mechanics can really ruins a Theme if they really want it. If your theme is cloning, and multiple cloning for instance, then the treatment you will bring to that Theme completely depends on what mechanics are involved in said cloning, and what is possible and what is not. What law there is around it, and what law there isn't.
+1 to Gwen. TBH this thread is damn well near YDIW :/ kinda sad
I don't really see the issue with YDIW as long as it's done constructively, especially if both parties are ready to understand and change their mind on the matter, which is clearly not the case here. It is always the individualistic "I do what I want", and it's sad - yes that's a RL YDIW but who cares ? What's the point to have communities, RP forums and the likes if nobody is ready to talk to each other over such things ? Better for everyone to go play in their corner if that's what they really want. That's what depresses me the most in this community. It's very endemic to western RL mentalities anyway, so can't blame people for thinking that way. :(
I tried to make a very thread about those issues but apparently we are more ready to accuse each other of not complying to one's own vision on this thread rather than fixing the issues. I was kind of glad because we - well at least me in my mind, I can't speak for everyone - made important steps to solve a few very unnerving things.
-
Perhaps the pilots that shoot CONCORD for the pirates are getting some technical & clone support in return for it?
Also; consider the missions that are for high-sec groups that involve killing spies that are escaping with information that would compromise them with CONCORD.
-
I am increasingly unsure what "lore" being tossed around in this thread is canon and what is player lore.
I mean, I can see civilian ships in space. I can even shoot them. So there's lore contradicting that by saying I can't see/shoot them?
Therefor, if someone could point me to official stuff that mentions CONCORD has the ability/jurisdiction to deactivate someones neocom and capsule, I'd be grateful.
-
I am increasingly unsure what "lore" being tossed around in this thread is canon and what is player lore.
I mean, I can see civilian ships in space. I can even shoot them. So there's lore contradicting that by saying I can't see/shoot them?
Therefor, if someone could point me to official stuff that mentions CONCORD has the ability/jurisdiction to deactivate someones neocom and capsule, I'd be grateful.
A lot of it is sourced from a Q&A conversation with CCP Falcon, where he responded to questions regarding how capsuleers and NPC groups react.
Key points were:
- CONCORD can shut off freelance capsuleers' (i.e., us) capsules if needed.
- Anything that runs through your Neocom can be potentially viewed and tinkered with by CONCORD.
- CONCORD maintains agents whose job is purely to look at capsuleers and make sure aren't wandering to far.
- True pirate-loyalist capsuleers (meaning, event actors) and empire navy capsuleers are not subject to these restrictions.
- A ton (though not all) of NPC infrastructure is hidden from us, including stargates, mining havens, and facilities such as fleet staging areas and shipyards. Sometimes these sites are revealed to us by choice (i.e., in missions so we can help) and sometimes when activity at them makes them noticeable to our sensors (i.e., anomalies and combat sigs). Most of it stays unnoticed.
- Asked if NPC groups might eventually open their hidden stargates/stations to us, "no, because capsuleers have such a reputation for being violent and unstable, they want a fallback that we can't mess up."
- Nullsec alliances do pay CONCORD fees.
- The production and research slots we use are separate facilities from the lines used by the NPC groups (not sure how this works with the recent industry changes, should ask him).
-
In my opinion, unless something is written down, it's not canon - Just the personal interpretation of the developer in question. For something to get in a chronicle or on a evewiki page, it presumably has to go through a few checks with the rest of the staff involved with the setting. Obviously this doesn't apply to an undocumented question and answer section, where the speaker can basically say whatever comes to mind or makes sense to them.
I'll repeat the anedcote I mentioned with Falcon telling me that all females had to have huge boobs and be short because "limited body templates" were on offer by the cloning companies, an idea that grossly contradicts anything written about the subject in the past, and also the fact that a developer at similar one once stated that he didn't see any reason why ships couldn't be run entirely by robots with no crew, which ruins the entire feel of the setting.
Even in cases where it does make it to the wiki it's sometimes not clear cut - See the debacle about soft cloning that took place a while ago, where writers who held different opinions about it were in direct competition.
Being a writer at CCP does not make your word law in regards to the setting unless you are actually, well, writing. With as much respect to him as possible, all of those ideas Falcon presented there sound like tacky low effort bunk focused on justifying things that simply don't need to be justified, and there's probably a good reason there's nothing written of them in the actual fiction. I'm not going to change my perception of the entire setting based on something a dude vaguely involved in it said anecdotally sometime that I can't even look at.
-
In my opinion, unless something is written down, it's not canon - Just the personal interpretation of the developer in question. For something to get in a chronicle or on a evewiki page, it presumably has to go through a few checks with the rest of the staff involved with the setting. Obviously this doesn't apply to an undocumented question and answer section, where the speaker can basically say whatever comes to mind or makes sense to them.
I'll repeat the anedcote I mentioned with Falcon telling me that all females had to have huge boobs and be short because "limited body templates" were on offer by the cloning companies, an idea that grossly contradicts anything written about the subject in the past, and also the fact that a developer at similar one once stated that he didn't see any reason why ships couldn't be run entirely by robots with no crew, which ruins the entire feel of the setting.
Even in cases where it does make it to the wiki it's sometimes not clear cut - See the debacle about soft cloning that took place a while ago, where writers who held different opinions about it were in direct competition.
Being a writer at CCP does not make your word law in regards to the setting unless you are actually, well, writing. With as much respect to him as possible, all of those ideas Falcon presented there sound like tacky low effort bunk focused on justifying things that simply don't need to be justified, and there's probably a good reason there's nothing written of them in the actual fiction. I'm not going to change my perception of the entire setting based on something a dude vaguely involved in it said anecdotally sometime that I can't even look at.
You are right, I never took Falcon's word or any other dev remark as Canon, especially since half of them were completely silly. It would maybe take Abraxas himself to state something for me to consider it since well... Isn't he the Godfather of all the Eve lore ?
The problem though with things that do not need to be justified is... well, how do you deal with it ? I am not sure to understand. If someone asks you an IC question about something directly involved in a plot hole, how do you answer ? How do you react ?
I am increasingly unsure what "lore" being tossed around in this thread is canon and what is player lore.
I mean, I can see civilian ships in space. I can even shoot them. So there's lore contradicting that by saying I can't see/shoot them?
Therefor, if someone could point me to official stuff that mentions CONCORD has the ability/jurisdiction to deactivate someones neocom and capsule, I'd be grateful.
A lot of it is sourced from a Q&A conversation with CCP Falcon, where he responded to questions regarding how capsuleers and NPC groups react.
Key points were:
- CONCORD can shut off freelance capsuleers' (i.e., us) capsules if needed.
- Anything that runs through your Neocom can be potentially viewed and tinkered with by CONCORD.
- CONCORD maintains agents whose job is purely to look at capsuleers and make sure aren't wandering to far.
- True pirate-loyalist capsuleers (meaning, event actors) and empire navy capsuleers are not subject to these restrictions.
- A ton (though not all) of NPC infrastructure is hidden from us, including stargates, mining havens, and facilities such as fleet staging areas and shipyards. Sometimes these sites are revealed to us by choice (i.e., in missions so we can help) and sometimes when activity at them makes them noticeable to our sensors (i.e., anomalies and combat sigs). Most of it stays unnoticed.
- Asked if NPC groups might eventually open their hidden stargates/stations to us, "no, because capsuleers have such a reputation for being violent and unstable, they want a fallback that we can't mess up."
- Nullsec alliances do pay CONCORD fees.
- The production and research slots we use are separate facilities from the lines used by the NPC groups (not sure how this works with the recent industry changes, should ask him).
Ok, so that goes in the direction that I thought. CONCORD when it comes to freelance capsuleers (us) regulates them so that they keep with each other in their own bubbles, and can occasionally be let loose on baseliners violating things in the NPC world (like, NPC missions that are trespassing in empire territory, doing various wrongs...). If capsuleers get too hostile and violent, sec status is here to make sure that it limits their destructive power into safe heavens that are industrious areas where other capsuleers create economic value so that it doesn't turn too counterproductive : it actually is productive since they will blow up stuff out of those industrious areas, making said industrious areas even more dynamic and active to replace lost value and make the economy run.
Still a lot of inconsistencies on why shooting CONCORD BS is suddenly ok in nullsec, or whatever, but well.
-
The problem though with things that do not need to be justified is... well, how do you deal with it ? I am not sure to understand. If someone asks you an IC question about something directly involved in a plot hole, how do you answer ? How do you react ?
For me, I just disengage from it. The only time I've ever seen people bring up mechanic justifications in roleplay is to spoil peoples fun. For instance, I saw two people in the Summit roleplaying together once, with one of them saying he was going after the others family who was in a interbus transport and the other guy saying he was gonna stop him. Then some third party basically said, "You're both dumb! You can't attack interbus transports, they're invisible because CONCORD!", which sort of killed the mood.
It reminds me of when people used to get mad at people doing roleplay events in cities in WoW who had been acting as the guards, saying, "You can't be the town guard! Only NPCs can be guards, that's how the game works!" except ICly. I don't see why EVE should be any inherently different. It's arbitrary creative bankruptcy that only serves to foster a dull and lifelessly static environment where people are afraid to explore any ideas at all that aren't directly involved with the raw mechanics of the game.
I assume there are exceptions to this, though, where the person might just have a different understanding of the setting that bumps into yours slightly during roleplay. In which case, I wouldn't see the harm in just sending them a quick OOC side note about it to avoid going in-depth about the issue.
-
Last time I did that I got yelled at because I was taking it OOCly... Well at least it was not a big deal since it was nothing at all actually. But if there is one thing I have learned with the eve RP community, is that as soon as you start to open an OOC bracket at some point, it is often severely frowned upon.
Being involved often in 'political' discussions, those plot holes appear often in the way. Especially when you start arguing about CONCORD legitimacy, that kind of things. Then you have people that come and say "they politics make no sense because of x". Well, they are right, it makes no sense. So basically, my argument is void.
It doesn't happen only with CONCORD of course, but the main issue is often found in CONCORD ruleset. I can imagine that Sansha loyalists had a lot of trouble to deal with the stupidity of sansha incursions too.
I know we can perfectly choose to ignore or belittle things like pve casualties scale of doom, but for CONCORD it is a lot harder for example. And even for pve casualties, you will always have people that will tell you "EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS INGAME IS IC". Well it's bullshit imo, but that's a school of thought. :|
The thing is that contrary to a lot of people that use plot holes as a way to win ICly ("Ha ! Got you !"), I like to understand why someone like Saede can have multiple clones like she does. It's not that I'm against it - actually I am all for it if it floats her boat - but somehow, ICly, I HAVE to explain it rationally, at least.
-
<snip>
The thing is that contrary to a lot of people that use plot holes as a way to win ICly ("Ha ! Got you !"), I like to understand why someone like Saede can have multiple clones like she does. It's not that I'm against it - actually I am all for it if it floats her boat - but somehow, ICly, I HAVE to explain it rationally, at least.
How about this. As I understand it a lot of the FTL comms used to transfer personas to a new clone use quantum entanglement, and the tech is largely supervised by CONCORD.
If all of Saede's clones are made "off grid" in the wormhole her corp has colonised they can be set up to be synchronised using facilities there. The tech exists, and it is entirely possible that she has access to an outlaw baseliner tech crew who run it for her. If only one clone at a time is ever using a capsule, then how is CONCORD to know anything iffy is going on? Granted yacking about it on the Neo-Com is a bit rash. But eggers say crazy stuff all the time so it might get lost in the noise.
Come to that. Given the description some of these "clones" read a bit like biomechanical remotes rather than individuals in their own right. That could just be an extension of drone control tech and nothing for CONCORD to get aggravated about.
-
Oh don't worry, the case for Saede's clones has already resolved since the first pages of this thread as far as I am concerned, you may even find several different ways to explain it. If only it was that simple with PF inconsistencies...
-
What I was getting at - to use one of Lyn's examples here - is that not even the Sansha loyalist RPers are really Sansha loyalists.
It's a minor thing that most of our characters ignore, but it's not something that most of the Sansha RPers ignore (afaik anyway) - they will NEVER be part of Kuvakei's utopia and they know it. They will always be kept at arm's length, given only the information they need in order to be made useful but never enough that they could cause serious harm should they choose to act like the unbound capsuleers that they are.
-
A lot of it is sourced from a Q&A conversation with CCP Falcon, where he responded to questions regarding how capsuleers and NPC groups react.
Key points were:
- CONCORD can shut off freelance capsuleers' (i.e., us) capsules if needed.
- Anything that runs through your Neocom can be potentially viewed and tinkered with by CONCORD.
- CONCORD maintains agents whose job is purely to look at capsuleers and make sure aren't wandering to far.
- True pirate-loyalist capsuleers (meaning, event actors) and empire navy capsuleers are not subject to these restrictions.
- A ton (though not all) of NPC infrastructure is hidden from us, including stargates, mining havens, and facilities such as fleet staging areas and shipyards. Sometimes these sites are revealed to us by choice (i.e., in missions so we can help) and sometimes when activity at them makes them noticeable to our sensors (i.e., anomalies and combat sigs). Most of it stays unnoticed.
- Asked if NPC groups might eventually open their hidden stargates/stations to us, "no, because capsuleers have such a reputation for being violent and unstable, they want a fallback that we can't mess up."
- Nullsec alliances do pay CONCORD fees.
- The production and research slots we use are separate facilities from the lines used by the NPC groups (not sure how this works with the recent industry changes, should ask him).
I hope people read this. I know some people like to ignore a few points listed here. >.>
We think we are gods, but really CONCORD is our keeper in most if not all aspects.
-
Hmm.
The points about capsules, neocom and NPC infrastructure of that Q&A raise more questions than it gives answers for me. Some of it could possibly to be in conflict with some other lore-like stuff, like about the SCC and CONCORD on the wiki, and the Origins trailer.
But it's hard to judge these things by learning about them second hand without context.
When did this Q&A happen?
-
Ok
The point is, where technology exists there are ways around it. SO apparently we're all sitting around pleasantly with the wool pulled over our eyes by concord?
This seems unlikely.
The whole "There's a ton of stuff in space but concord is hiding it seems like a really poor explanation to mesh mechanics with lore. I see no reason to handwave all retarded mechanics like this as lore.
-
There's not even a link to actual solid information just "Falcon said this once"
As far as explanations goes I'm putting this on the same list as "Big Al says dogs can't look up"
-
A lot of it is sourced from a Q&A conversation with CCP Falcon, where he responded to questions regarding how capsuleers and NPC groups react.
Key points were:
- CONCORD can shut off freelance capsuleers' (i.e., us) capsules if needed.
- Anything that runs through your Neocom can be potentially viewed and tinkered with by CONCORD.
- CONCORD maintains agents whose job is purely to look at capsuleers and make sure aren't wandering to far.
- True pirate-loyalist capsuleers (meaning, event actors) and empire navy capsuleers are not subject to these restrictions.
- A ton (though not all) of NPC infrastructure is hidden from us, including stargates, mining havens, and facilities such as fleet staging areas and shipyards. Sometimes these sites are revealed to us by choice (i.e., in missions so we can help) and sometimes when activity at them makes them noticeable to our sensors (i.e., anomalies and combat sigs). Most of it stays unnoticed.
- Asked if NPC groups might eventually open their hidden stargates/stations to us, "no, because capsuleers have such a reputation for being violent and unstable, they want a fallback that we can't mess up."
- Nullsec alliances do pay CONCORD fees.
- The production and research slots we use are separate facilities from the lines used by the NPC groups (not sure how this works with the recent industry changes, should ask him).
I hope people read this. I know some people like to ignore a few points listed here. >.>
We think we are gods, but really CONCORD is our keeper in most if not all aspects.
Some of that I can see...some of it makes no sense to me.
NPCs hiding stuff sure that's totally feasible in my head even if a bit of a stretch.
The first two CONCORD points...no. The part about the Neocom is believable, but the amount of data to sift through gives plenty of leeway to say they don't know it all. The first one I have a hard time believing at all. After all if the pirate factions can bypass CONCORD then capsuleers can too if so inclined. Other wise whats the point of even playing a pirate loyalist? Being allowed by the powers that be to play pirate just seems stupid to me. I mean most pirates give the middle finger to the man and here we are saying that the man lets us do it. Also...hyperdunking...ganking I can see as CONCORD not being able to do much, but that...well I don't care how laid back a police force is...I doubt they would let that become a thing.
Some mechanics we kinda have to look over for RPs sake. At least I think we do...and I doubt I'm alone in this. I'm by no means an RP/lore purist and as long as it generally fits within the EVE universe and makes sense I'm all for it. I know some people will probably complain about this or that breaking their immersion...but a pirate that has their balls on a leash held by the universal police force...that pretty much kills my immersion and my desire to really RP as such or even to RP as someone slightly outside of the boundaries of the law.
-
On the issue that pirate factions can bypass CONCORD infrastructure and not freelance capsuleers, a possible explanation is that freelance capsuleers are given their tools and status by CONCORD and using CONCORD infrastructure, while pirate factions have always been out of the loop to begin with, and have built their own. The question is, what prevents capsuleers to do the same ? Not sure. Lack of means ? Sounds stretched to me.
Your point about playing a pirate is a good point. There is 2 schools of thoughts on that :
- You are part of a pirate faction that gives you their own infrastructure, explaining why you clone up outside of CONCORD regulated cloning bays, maybe in shady parts of a high sec station, or in nullsec pirate stations. It also implies that CONCORD has no control over your neocom and capsule, or otherwise they would know it and shut it down for good. The only issue I see is that it's not like capsuleers are millions, so it should not be too hard to see that some capsuleers seem to pop out of nowhere and so, are using illegal infrastructures.
- You play in the game as a freelance capsuleers and so, are just that, a freelance capsuleer regulated by CONCORD. You can't play a faction capsuleer, which includes empire state capsuleers as well as pirate factioned capsuleers that are regulated by their own empire/pirate faction. So you can't fight for your empire, except by joining their proxy war thingy made for independent capsuleers, but you will never be part of the Gallente Navy or Ishukone Watch or whatever. You can't also be part of the pirate capsuleers lapdogs and be say, a Cartel lieutenant. Some will also argue that nobody plays a state capsuleer, so why pirate loyalists feel the need to play as part of the armed forces of their pirate faction ? So the issue is indeed, why bother playing a pirate loyalist when you can't be more than a pirate sympathizer ? Well, TSF folks will be able to talk better about it than myself... But eventually, the issue remains the same : why bother playing a faction loyalist, pirate or empire side, when you perfectly know that your role will only to be a cheerleader for your faction and nothing else, except once in a year when you will have the opportunity to play alongside NPC actors that are truly part of your beloved faction.
-
Using illegal infrastructure is half the fun :D
Honestly I do like that option better just because I don't see "the powers that be" actually allowing a freelance anything to openly break the law without much recourse. If CCP turned CONCORD into an AI I have a feeling that if it then applied CONCORD stuff to RPers....we'd all be banned :o
The freelance angle makes sense...it's just that it still runs into the problem of CONCORD having you dead to rights if they really wanted it. That part actually doesn't make sense to me. I mean Veto probably wouldn't exist if that was the case, same with Naraka, Stillwater, and any other pirate sympathizers you wanna name that I cant think of atm. Being an Empire loyalist is easy CONCORD wouldn't have a huge problem with that since they regulate the empires. They wouldn't have a problem with null groups since they pay taxes. Pirate groups don't do either of those..well maybe indirectly through sale of loot, but i doubt that really counts. So then what's CONCORDS reason for letting them do what they do?
-
A few more things
We can see NPCs undock from station. If Concord are hiding them we shouldn't
We can still smartbomb gates in high sec and kill all the NPCs we can't see.
The logically progression of "Freelance capsuleers need to be controlled by software in their pods" is that we're not actually undocking. Concord is running the matrix on us.
-
Maybe the reason they're called smartbombs because they do damage to everything except civilian ships.
[spoiler](http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110201043740/cybernations/images/7/73/Trollface.png)[/spoiler]
-
Maybe the reason they're called smartbombs because they do damage to everything except civilian ships.
[spoiler](http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110201043740/cybernations/images/7/73/Trollface.png)[/spoiler]
I'd term that grasping at straws. Especially as the argument so far is that things don't happen because concord prevents it.
-
Maybe the reason they're called smartbombs because they do damage to everything except civilian ships.
[spoiler](http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110201043740/cybernations/images/7/73/Trollface.png)[/spoiler]
:eek:.... :lol:.... :cube:
-
The freelance angle makes sense...it's just that it still runs into the problem of CONCORD having you dead to rights if they really wanted it. That part actually doesn't make sense to me. I mean Veto probably wouldn't exist if that was the case, same with Naraka, Stillwater, and any other pirate sympathizers you wanna name that I cant think of atm. Being an Empire loyalist is easy CONCORD wouldn't have a huge problem with that since they regulate the empires. They wouldn't have a problem with null groups since they pay taxes. Pirate groups don't do either of those..well maybe indirectly through sale of loot, but i doubt that really counts. So then what's CONCORDS reason for letting them do what they do?
No because actually VETO in that case scenario is nothing more than a group of freelances claiming that they like the Guristas. CONCORD doesn't care. The best VETO will do is to kill other capsuleers, and so their sec status will drop temporarily to prevent them harming the high sec economy by wrecking havoc here, and that's it. And pirate capsuleers shooting other capsuleers stimulate economic production and needs. It's rather nice when people are immortal and you can shoot each other freely without much consequences, damned be the crews, they accepted it in the first place right ?
The only thing that doesn't make sense imo is the possible killing of hundreds DED battleships in nullsec though.
So yeah, I explained basically the 2 schools of thoughts on this (and i'm sure you can find the same for most plot holes), both with their pros and cons. The first one being a lot of handwavium but still not enough because there are inconsistencies left. If done correctly it shouldn't, but the issue is that everyone can make up their own. The second one doesn't have that issue, but faces directly the game inconsistencies and tends to makes loyalist RP a bit absurd... so... vOv
( now we are at it that's maybe part of why people don't play loyalists anymore... )
-
I highly doubt the police would let the town delinquents run down the streets breaking out car windows cause it's good for the local economy since they have a glass plant in town....
-
Except VETO did eventually join the Guristas.
And 'pirate' actors have on multiple occasions both outright supported, encouraged, and recognized pirate loyalist capsuleers.
-
Eh until I see it written down or in a chronicle I won't pay anything no mind. As was said before, many mmos run into this problem where game mechanics are a wall to "Sane and rational actors" like the people who go on a murdering spree in WoW because NPC guards don't act on them.
Before you ask yes, a guild legit thought they could get away with that stuff until people just blocked them. I feel this is the same thing, if pilots could see all the sites then what would be the point in scanning in the first place? -EVERYTHING- has been seen, dissected, and turned into a 12 page paper on how to make money on this 10 year+ old game. To expect this game to hold up to lore or what people want to rp 100% of the time is stupid and quite frankly if you don't like how someone is RPing you have two options: destroy their sandcastle in space, or do the slightly more grown up thing and take your blocks then go home.
-
Eh until I see it written down or in a chronicle I won't pay anything no mind. As was said before, many mmos run into this problem where game mechanics are a wall to "Sane and rational actors" like the people who go on a murdering spree in WoW because NPC guards don't act on them.
Before you ask yes, a guild legit thought they could get away with that stuff until people just blocked them. I feel this is the same thing, if pilots could see all the sites then what would be the point in scanning in the first place? -EVERYTHING- has been seen, dissected, and turned into a 12 page paper on how to make money on this 10 year+ old game. To expect this game to hold up to lore or what people want to rp 100% of the time is stupid and quite frankly if you don't like how someone is RPing you have two options: destroy their sandcastle in space, or do the slightly more grown up thing and take your blocks then go home.
People have different thresholds for expecting certain amounts of lore consistency and attention to detail.
Saying people should have x level of expectations because 'game' is a long road as well
-
Eh until I see it written down or in a chronicle I won't pay anything no mind. As was said before, many mmos run into this problem where game mechanics are a wall to "Sane and rational actors" like the people who go on a murdering spree in WoW because NPC guards don't act on them.
Before you ask yes, a guild legit thought they could get away with that stuff until people just blocked them. I feel this is the same thing, if pilots could see all the sites then what would be the point in scanning in the first place? -EVERYTHING- has been seen, dissected, and turned into a 12 page paper on how to make money on this 10 year+ old game. To expect this game to hold up to lore or what people want to rp 100% of the time is stupid and quite frankly if you don't like how someone is RPing you have two options: destroy their sandcastle in space, or do the slightly more grown up thing and take your blocks then go home.
People have different thresholds for expecting certain amounts of lore consistency and attention to detail.
Saying people should have x level of expectations because 'game' is a long road as well
It is, but I would like to think we are all rational and adult enough to overlook some things that we don't agree on so we can have more RP of more varieties. I completely believe that even frigates have crew, but if Ava talks to me about hers not having any Simca isn't going to call her out on it. I'd rather have RP even if I do have to handwave some stuff as not have any or very little cause I'm a nazi about this that or the other lorewise.
-
I'm with you, but I handwave with a bit of eyeroll added :P
-
I'm with you, but I handwave with a bit of eyeroll added :P
I love how you did that in TBL, by the way. :cube:
Silas Vitalia blinks in with a slightly grainy VR representation, tapping her fingers with impatience as she scans the crowd > ...The things I do... Mr. Biko, are you here?
[..]
Silas Vitalia returns to the main room on the way out
Silas Vitalia > Allright, you people have fun with your mechanical exploding hookers or whatever the hell it is you people do in here. Ciao!
Silas Vitalia blinks out
-
I'm with you, but I handwave with a bit of eyeroll added :P
I love how you did that in TBL, by the way. :cube:
Silas Vitalia blinks in with a slightly grainy VR representation, tapping her fingers with impatience as she scans the crowd > ...The things I do... Mr. Biko, are you here?
[..]
Silas Vitalia returns to the main room on the way out
Silas Vitalia > Allright, you people have fun with your mechanical exploding hookers or whatever the hell it is you people do in here. Ciao!
Silas Vitalia blinks out
Gods I had forgotten about that....whole thing
-
From a certain point of view, that time that Zhek Kromturr got banned, is a demonstration of CONCORD acting against multiple linked bodies controlled by one mind.
-
From a certain point of view, that time that Zhek Kromturr got banned, is a demonstration of CONCORD acting against multiple linked bodies controlled by one mind.
I've never heard of this person.
Care to give some details?
-
From a certain point of view, that time that Zhek Kromturr got banned, is a demonstration of CONCORD acting against multiple linked bodies controlled by one mind.
I've never heard of this person.
Care to give some details?
(http://oeg-home.ru/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/zhek_13.jpg)
(http://i.i.cbsi.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim//2010/04/12/mainsetup2.jpg)
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1291641
That guy.
-
Oohhhh...I remember him.
I remember that pic anyway.
-
Except VETO did eventually join the Guristas.
And 'pirate' actors have on multiple occasions both outright supported, encouraged, and recognized pirate loyalist capsuleers.
And certain Empire faction loyalists, too. I only have a short list, but I'm reasonably certain that NPC actors have made it canon that PIE is directly affiliated with the Empire, I-Red is directly affiliated with Ishukone and Pyre Falcon is directly affiliated with KK.
-
Except VETO did eventually join the Guristas.
And 'pirate' actors have on multiple occasions both outright supported, encouraged, and recognized pirate loyalist capsuleers.
And certain Empire faction loyalists, too. I only have a short list, but I'm reasonably certain that NPC actors have made it canon that PIE is directly affiliated with the Empire, I-Red is directly affiliated with Ishukone and Pyre Falcon is directly affiliated with KK.
Yup. Basically independent capsuleers are super serial to the powers that be and they love us and care about us all the time :P
-
Bleh, I give up. It's a fucking mess.
-
I don't know if this is the right place but, What does the Theology Council or whatever say about people marrying their own clones? It is not unheard of in Delve and other places unrestricted by the laws of the empire. Has it been done before?
-
So that's what you have planned eh? I knew you had something weird in the works!