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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE Guides, Mechanics & Gameplay => Topic started by: Saikoyu on 01 Aug 2011, 16:49
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So I have recently hit a bit of a dead end as to what I should look towards getting next in the way of a lvl 4 capable ship. I will always go back to a Rattlesnake for afking because it does the job and I like it, but it is so slow doing the job. I'd want something faster, some thing I actually have to fly and not just park somewhere and launch drones and missiles.
So, I'll start by saying what I am not looking for. I am not looking for maximum isk per hour in a lvl 4 mission runner ship. I have other ways of making isk besides missions. I am not looking for something pimped out to the max, I like T2 just fine for most things. And I am not looking for something slow and afk worthy, I know how to fit a Rattlesnake and it is fine for that.
What I am looking for is something that I can log in, get a mission and fifteen or so minutes later I am flying through a field of wrecks. Also, something that looks nice, but I think Minmatar looks nice, so that's up for debate. And fun as well, something that I have to fly, and demands somethig of my mind.
Given all of that, what do people think would be the best ship and fit for lvl 4s? I have heard about the Machariel and the Vargur, which seem like solid choices, but I like oddball fits in the name of speed and firepower.
Bonus points if you can think of a PvE Hyperion that does the above.
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Why not a Phoon?
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Tenguuuuuuuu!
It's very fun to be something the size of a Machariel's engine while orbiting that same Machariel at 500m while it and 12 of its friends are trying to blob you to death.
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All four T3s require attention, with the slight exception of the Tengu. The Tengu is very easy to fly and permatank, but not overpowered enough that you wouldn't have to pay any attention to your ship when fit with only T2. I highly recommend deadspace mods for your primary tank, whatever that may be. (Shield boosters, armor reps, speed mods)
T3s are small, lively, and gorgeously built machines of death. Stunningly effective, and flexible, they can be fit to require some skill to fly well, or can be fit to be a lazy AFK boat by overtanking the crap out of them.
They even have some flexibility to try and put some real effort into trying to use odd setups... like a railgun Tengu. It can be done, but it will require your attention to fly and win.
If you have the ISK to throw down for a Vargur or Mach, you have the ISK to throw down for a basic T3 build.
I might suggest a HAM Tengu, since I am Caldari. Brutal DPS and requires some piloting skill to pull off well. Watch out for webs, etc...
Or maybe a blaster brawler Proteus? Lots of ideas.
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Gank pulse fit, single rep Apoc, Navy Apoc or Paladin. You can't permatank most missions so you must kill quickly, thereby demanding a bit of attention, but you can still finish pretty much every mission solo and in a decent amount of time.
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Gank pulse fit, single rep Apoc, Navy Apoc or Paladin. You can't permatank most missions so you must kill quickly, thereby demanding a bit of attention, but you can still finish pretty much every mission solo and in a decent amount of time.
Similarly, the Abaddon (although it's a bit lower on the DPS, a bit more forgiving on the tank, and requires nigh-perfect cap skills to use effectively). If you have a good bit of ISK to throw down and some time to crosstrain, the Nightmare is an option as well.
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Nightmares never go wrong, but ymmv.
I run a Tachyon setup, which requires a particular attention to detail. A Mega Pulse with Scorch is more standard, and can run quite efficiently.
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What are peoples' experiences running L4's with HACs?
I don't care to train BS because I don't expect to PVP in one very much, and a T3 is way down the road. Ishtar is probably an obvious pick and people use the Vagabond plenty but what about the other HACs?
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I'd say they could all be reasonable L4 ships, with the possible exception of the Eagle and Diemos. I'm not sure what sort of DPS/Tank you could come up with using those two.
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Muninn looks like a hell of a gunboat... not sure about tank, but you get 25% to projectile RoF and damage, plus 10% per HAC level to optimal and 7.5% to tracking speed. EM/Thermal armor resists are pretty cool, so depending on your rats, you could do well with it, I'd tend to think.
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What are peoples' experiences running L4's with HACs?
I don't care to train BS because I don't expect to PVP in one very much, and a T3 is way down the road. Ishtar is probably an obvious pick and people use the Vagabond plenty but what about the other HACs?
All the HACs are viable with the possible exception of the Eagle, who simply just lacks damage output. HACs and T3 share the same boat in that they both tank the same way: with speed and active tanking. T3 just do it easier since their bonuses are more multiplicative.
The issue with HAC missioning is that you have to more carefully manage aggro, if you go over your defense cap you will exploderize very quickly.
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HACs don't quite cut it apart from Ishtar and to a degree Vaga. Most can't handle/deal enough dps to make it worthwhile, I mean sure you can do it but it takes only one fuck up in aggro and poof you'er dead. Not really worth the effort unless you really want to micromanage.
Commandships work decently, especially the Sleipnir and Nighthawk. Sleipnir eats ammo like nobodys business and requires some aggro management. While Nighthawk will tank the end of the world if need be, it does really minuscule dps. But not much will kill it.
Mach's are pretty bad ass because they do all that you want essentially. DPS, agility and speed even if you armour tank one. They do come with a pricetag of 800mil or so for the sheer hull and cross training two races of battleships.
One of my personal favourites is my Loki, it relies wholly on it's speed and small sigradius and it has dps to take down most missions quick and easy. Downside is that it can eat thru 5 to 6k rounds in the harder missions.
Speed and Hyperions don't really go hand in hand unfortunately but you can do decent blaster hyperions for DPS, downside is that you might have to resort to Null quite a bit, and that in turn is not very cost effective. Some Rail Hypes seem to work nice but they are armour tankers and with that territory comes the pain of being bulky and slow.
If you have the isk to burn and the skills to fly, I would definitely say go for the Machariel. The hull works just fine with pure t2 fit, though I am sure there will be some special snowflake pretending to be important by giving you grief over not putting deadspace mods on it.
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Thanks for the answers so far, if there are more out there please keep them coming. As a general note I should add that cross training is not a problem for me really. In a fit of something a while ago, I ended up training all racial battleships to V. The rest of the skills are not far behind. And to answer some comments so far for myself:
I have tried the 'phoon, but never for the speed side of things, and long before the boost to autocannons. Honestly it always reminds me of the doomsday machine from that episode of star trek, and I always promised myself that if I ever PVP'd, that would be the ship to do it in. Maybe I should look at going for PvE as well.
Honestly, T3s would be an interesting idea, but the sight of the Tengu just makes me want to smack my head in. Again, my personal set of taste. The Loki is almost the same, very few of the configurations look nice to me. And the Legion as well, the only configurations that look nice to me are best for exploration, not lvl 4s. The Proteus does bear looking into though.
I guess the Hyperion will end up a hanger queen, too pretty to not get, to useless to fly. Maybe when they fix hybrids she'll turn into something grand.
Never liked the Apoc hull, but the Abaddon might be something. Nightmare, I still waver on, never can decide it its Borg like sexy or Borg like creepy. and of course, the Varg and Mach. Hmm, I think I just expanded my list instead of shrinking it. Of well, what else are MMO millions for?
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Thanks for the answers so far, if there are more out there please keep them coming. As a general note I should add that cross training is not a problem for me really. In a fit of something a while ago, I ended up training all racial battleships to V. The rest of the skills are not far behind. And to answer some comments so far for myself:
I have tried the 'phoon, but never for the speed side of things, and long before the boost to autocannons. Honestly it always reminds me of the doomsday machine from that episode of star trek, and I always promised myself that if I ever PVP'd, that would be the ship to do it in. Maybe I should look at going for PvE as well.
Honestly, T3s would be an interesting idea, but the sight of the Tengu just makes me want to smack my head in. Again, my personal set of taste. The Loki is almost the same, very few of the configurations look nice to me. And the Legion as well, the only configurations that look nice to me are best for exploration, not lvl 4s. The Proteus does bear looking into though.
I guess the Hyperion will end up a hanger queen, too pretty to not get, to useless to fly. Maybe when they fix hybrids she'll turn into something grand.
Never liked the Apoc hull, but the Abaddon might be something. Nightmare, I still waver on, never can decide it its Borg like sexy or Borg like creepy. and of course, the Varg and Mach. Hmm, I think I just expanded my list instead of shrinking it. Of well, what else are MMO millions for?
(http://jc1701.com/alicekruige_as_borgqueen_x.JPG)
VS
(http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/1531/671278479.jpg)
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Well, personally for sexy I was going with her (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Seven_of_Nine,_2378.jpg), and creepy would be Borg queen, but to each their own.
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Best experience for me so far has been a gist x-type xl boosted mach, only problem is the high initial investment.
But melts through missions more than twice as fast as my Tengu did. Amazing top speed too.
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Maybe I'm alone on this, but I like the Absolution.
Tank is epic, firepower is quite good, and you can get them up to a respectable speed to boot.
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Like some others mentioned before, I like the Machariel. It's got speed, DPS, and agility.
Personally I buffer tank mine. No need for super expensive deadspace modules, T2 tank mods are just fine for all missions, so long as you control range and watch what you aggro.
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Field Command Ships and various T3s are quite popular with those pilots that would rather not misison in a BS...but I have it on pretty good authority that there isn't much in New Eden faster at making things dead than the Mach.
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If you are averse to BS's, then Tengu will satisfy these requirements.
If you don't mind battleships, then Mach or Nightmare will satisfy your requirements and kill quite a bit faster. I'd compare your laser/missile/projectile skills and go from there.
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Tengu for NPCs that have either a weakness to Kinetic, or a secondary weakness to same.
(Primary damage type against Caldari-derived NPCs, secondary weakness of Serpentis/Gallente and/or Minmatar/Angels and Mercenaries, respectively.)
Machariel for everything else...or just the Machi for both, either ship works just fine with a basic T II fit, although the Tengu really shines with some judicious pimpage (mainly Caldari Navy BCUs in the lows and a complex small-size Shield-Booster. I use a Pithi C-Type Small, and a CN-issue SBA + 4 CN BCUs in the lows--all else, T II. These mods will free up enough CPU to switch the electronic subsystem to the Dissolution Sequencer which increases targetting range to like, 115+ km from 85-90 for the CPU Efficiency Gate.).
Lots of fun to fly either like a big Assault Frigate--turn on your O/Vs "transversal" column, and approach indirectly/spiralling in, hit "orbit" at your preferred range, speed mod on. This is much easier in the Tengu, as you don't have to worry about your whipping about your targets affecting your missiles' accuracy. The Machi, on the other hand, might be considered a bit more forgiving as you can deal with webbies/pointies with your drones. (IMPORTANT: Kill any webbers ASAP in either case!)
You absolutely cannot AFK either one, though, that could hurt...a lot. Not a big thing, in practise though, as these both kill shit so fast that you may well be flying back to base for the next mission before you'd even consider going AFK in the Rattler for the first one.
After those two, anything else is just too much like work.
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Why would anyone mission if you don't have to? :bash:
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Why would anyone mission if you don't have to? :bash:
Missioning's not really my kink, either, but if you're going to do it you might as well make it as enjoyable as you can.
Taking the question seriously for a moment:
(a) Standings
(b) ISK and LPs
(c) A mindless solitaire game of squashing the crosses as a wind-down after work
(d) A thing to do with friends while chatting and flying together
(e) Semi-productive multi-tasking while doing other things in EVE or out of EVE.
If you were missioning--for whatever reason would get you to do it--what would you prefer to fly?
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Kronos. I love the name, it's appearance (Megathron skin FTW) and it's designated job. However the reality of the game means it's little more than a glorified missioning boat - I might as well use it as such, ne?
Considering other alternatives here state your need to double BS-skill for a faction BS that would be better served in combat (putting aside the reality of 'ooh shiny kill-mail u die nao lolz' effect) or get the skills and isk for a T3, you might as well go get the skills and isk for a Marauder of your choosing. In your case - the Paladi?. Marauders tank like monsters, the ease-of-jamming weakness is ignorable in mission boats, and you need no ammo so have effectively no expenses. Plus, in your case you should manage to do with 4 T2 pulse lasers what my Kronos does with 4 T2 railguns; snipe BS, BC and cruiser rats to death at 50-80km, all the while eating the frigs with your drones. I've not done missions for motnhs now, but when I did I had no problem at all managing cap while setting my drones and guns to preferred targets. I'd even salvage and loot with it if I didn't have a Nochtis available on another toon for that job, so if your solo that cuts down on your needed missioning time. Bonus!
Until you can use the Paladin, the Apocalypse is, as stated, a very useful missioning ship - less cap problems, good tank, good DPS, drone support...
As for why do missions... just because? There are plenty of useful benefits that have been listed. And, jsut like with mining, while it can be tedious and boring if you 'focus' on it or do only that, the trick with all this is to go about doing it while doing something else at the same time. Being social in corp/alliance chat or whatever is just one of the possibilities.
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Why would anyone mission if you don't have to? :bash:
Because you can make ISK AFK? :Dominix:
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Well, personally for sexy I was going with her (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Seven_of_Nine,_2378.jpg), and creepy would be Borg queen, but to each their own.
That Maggie Thatcher hairdo just doesn't do it for me.... :ugh:
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Big fan of the Mach, but spending my entire life in falloff has become somewhat dull, considering a Vindicator and/or Kronos (because Salvaging after takes time, and multiboxing is bleh)
I also actually miss armour tanking, shield tanking feels so flimsy...
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I've enjoyed using a Paladin for missions. Didn't go with a completely capstable fit, but Tachs work well with two heatsinks, a tracking computer, and either a web or second tracking computer depending on rats. (Sansha 2x TC, everything else web + TC.)
Found that a 425mm rail Talos works decently well for blitzing L3s for standings, too. Haven't tried messing with similar fits for the other three of the new battlecruisers yet, though.
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Found that a 425mm rail Talos works decently well for blitzing L3s for standings, too. Haven't tried messing with similar fits for the other three of the new battlecruisers yet, though.
I was going to use an Oracle. Can't sleep, so going to grind standings for Caldari arc, going with a MPL fit Coercer for L1/2
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Big fan of the Mach, but spending my entire life in falloff has become somewhat dull, considering a Vindicator and/or Kronos (because Salvaging after takes time, and multiboxing is bleh)
I also actually miss armour tanking, shield tanking feels so flimsy...
Vindicator has horrible active tank for missions. :/
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For what it's worth, I've yet to encounter a lvl4 mission that made me break a sweat with my Kronos active armor tank. My fit includes a cap-injector, but it's mostly for 'emergencies'. I've poped it once or twice due to lazyness mostly...
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For what it's worth, I've yet to encounter a lvl4 mission that made me break a sweat with my Drake/Raven/Passive Shield Myrm/Passive Shield Domi tank. My fit includes a cap-injector, but it's mostly for 'emergencies'. I've poped it once or twice due to lazyness mostly...
Fixed.
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For what it's worth, I've yet to encounter a lvl4 mission that made me break a sweat with my Drake/Raven/Passive Shield Myrm/Passive Shield Domi tank. My fit includes a cap-injector, but it's mostly for 'emergencies'. I've poped it once or twice due to lazyness mostly...
Fixed.
Dread Pirate Scarlet tends to pop most of the above.
If not there's a few missions in the L4 Gallente arc and one in the Amarrian arc that would like a word :P
Anyway I've always wanted them to ramp up the difficulty, or at least split L4's into two tiers of difficulty, with the better paying missions being made harder.
Big fan of the Mach, but spending my entire life in falloff has become somewhat dull, considering a Vindicator and/or Kronos (because Salvaging after takes time, and multiboxing is bleh)
I also actually miss armour tanking, shield tanking feels so flimsy...
Vindicator has horrible active tank for missions. :/
You do have to flex the wallet somewhat to fit a decent tank on it, but the DPS output tends to limit the amount of firepower you're going to come under.
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Yeah but well, tbh I already reach 1000 DPS with a paladin (against 1100 or 1200 with a rail vindi...), and a tank far superior, so... Maybe the damage type output and a little more range (but railguns with the lol vindicator locking range ?) might be interesting, but well, not that much. Clearly, the ship is not really fit for L4s to my eyes.
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Yeah but well, tbh I already reach 1000 DPS with a paladin (against 1100 or 1200 with a rail vindi...), and a tank far superior, so... Maybe the damage type output and a little more range (but railguns with the lol vindicator locking range ?) might be interesting, but well, not that much. Clearly, the ship is not really fit for L4s to my eyes.
1k with a Tachyondin? Is that including implants?
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No, its just including beams. :p
+30% DPS and tracking with beams (compared to rails and artillery) remember ?
1025 DPS with 3 IN heat sinks and IN multifrequency. Around 100 DPS less than a rail vindi. And 3 free high slots left for some random things.
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No, its just including beams. :p
+30% DPS and tracking with beams (compared to rails and artillery) remember ?
1025 DPS with 3 IN heat sinks and IN multifrequency. Around 100 DPS less than a rail vindi. And 3 free high slots left for some random things.
Ah, that's why, I hadn't factored drones into it. Was wondering why the numbers were that high.
My biggest issue with the Paladin though is a lack of powergrid to just fit it perfectly. Which is why I'm probably leaning more towards the Kronos if anything. The DPS between the Kronos and the Paladin is so slight, yet the Kronos can field two racks of small drones to counter tackle frigates and still have room for 3 sentries.
And you can stick an MWD on it for going gate to gate.
Edit: Seems since the Hybrid buff that 425 Rails now track at the same speed as Tachs. Least with both Kronos and Paladin I'm showing them at 0.0174 (with 39.6 optimal, the Kronos having better falloff by 5k)
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Yeah I forgot the hybrid buff.
For the fitting thats also why im using navy tachyons (less capacitor consumption anyway, so i can fit a web), and a navy repairer.
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Necro (funny, since this is only the second topic).
For my money, the Cerberus is the most entertaining mission ship. It's not necessarily the fastest at killing everything in sight, but it keeps things fun.
Combine speed and active shield tank, AB + small shield booster(s). Load the lows with all the damage mods your CPU can handle, then hull mods (nanofiber, etc.). When first learning the ins and outs, use heavy missiles so you can keep up that spatial margin for error.
If you like big explosions and are playing somebody who doesn't have much regard for human life, bring along a couple hundred FoFs and hold yourself a the occasional victory celebration by uncoupling the launchers, loading the FoFs, and then doing strafing runs past unhardened structures with all the launchers going on independently-cycling fire. You can turn space red with explosions until you run out of either missiles or structures. Biggest literal blast in all of Eve (the biggest figurative one is limited to PvP).
Once you're comfortable with the ship, have a good sense of how to stay alive, and get tired of watching anti-missile batteries crimping your firepower, take the same fit loaded out with HAMs.
You can do all this with a Tengu, of course, but (1) everybody does that and (2) it's much more expensive and (3) it won't hold your attention anywhere near as well because the Tengu can sleepwalk through most fights. The Cerb, not so much.
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If you like big explosions and are playing somebody who doesn't have much regard for human life, bring along a couple hundred FoFs and hold yourself a the occasional victory celebration by uncoupling the launchers, loading the FoFs, and then doing strafing runs past unhardened structures with all the launchers going on independently-cycling fire.
[spoiler](http://i.qkme.me/3onajv.jpg)[/spoiler]
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The fastest mission runners - that is, the ships that kill the rats the fastest, as opposed to blitzing for objectives - are as follows:
1. EM/Thermal rats: Nightmare. The Nightmare edges out the Paladin unless you plan to salvage while you go (don't salvage while you go, get a Noctis if you must loot). Use Tachyons, 4 hardeners, cheap XL complex booster and shield boost amplifier. Lastly, pack on a cap injector, two tracking enhancers, and three heat sinks. The Nightmare's tracking makes Tachyon beams usable against even frigates at range, and you only need to use MF for most missions. DPS averages in the 1000-1200 range. You can make it even more deadly by dropping the shield boost amp for a tracking computer and replacing a tracking enhancer for another heat sink, but I find that I prefer the safety margin. This build requires perfect cap skills for more difficult missions.
2. Guristas/Serpentis: Caldari Navy Raven. Typical 4 hardener, setup for tank, adjust to taste. Fit a target painter and use t2 cruise launchers, switch to tech 2 hi damage cruise missile for BS targets, and regular cruise for everything else. This fit averages around 800-900 DPS, but all damage can be conformed to the target's weakest resists, making the effective DPS very high. This is the best all-around mission ship, and missions faster than a Tengu or Golem. The disadvantage of the CNR is that any build with a target painter will have a weaker tank.
3. Angels/Mercs: Vargur. I love the Vargur, so much so that I'm willing to put up with a bit of inefficiency to use them against Guristas. Use autocannons - artillery damage is inherently wasteful, and the long recycle makes popping frigs at range a no-go. Shield tank is the way to go, with tracking enhancers or tracking computers to give you the falloff you need. Pack short range and long range ammunition, and you can function effectively against any enemy. Still, this beast is most deadly against Angels.
One thing many people do not think about when picking a missioning ship is the extreme ranges some missions present you with. In terms of speed, a Golem can wipe out enemies very quickly, but the flight into torpedo range means that dps is not actually applied for quite some time. While MWD's do work in mission spaces now, they still take time to get you into range, and dramatically reduce your active tanking capabilities as long as they are drawing capacitor. So while your Golem, Federation Megathron, or Tengu (Tengu has max 78km locking range) is still flying into position, a Nightmare or Vargur may well have been blasting away for 2-3 minutes. Since a Vargur can easily complete a mission in 15 minutes, and a Nightmare in less than that, those extra few minutes add up.
In regards to drone boats for missions, I can't say that I like them. The drones occasionally get aggro'd, but the real flaw is that the DPS output is simply sub-par. A Dominix or Ishtar may take two or three times as long to complete a mission than a Nightmare or CNR.
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I love missioning in my Mach. It does stupid variable damage-type DPS at very long range, can move quickly, and forces to me pay attention and kinda get into a mission (which is a good thing in my mind, if I actually want to make real ISK while not thinking too much about it, Ill trade, not do semi-afk stuff).
Also, its pretty to look at.
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Maybe I'm alone on this, but I like the Absolution.
Tank is epic, firepower is quite good, and you can get them up to a respectable speed to boot.
Graelyn speaks the truth. I used to run a T2 pulse setup with about 13 min of cap, which provided me margin of error as long as I paid attention.
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Fun fact about missile ships: sometimes FOF missiles don't aggro groups in missions!
:cube:
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Fun fact about missile ships: sometimes FOF missiles don't aggro groups in missions!
:cube:
Well the idea wasn't to aggro with them, but to have fun blowing up everything static after the rats were dead :D
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When I was playing on Rek I ran a lot of L4s for Sebiestor Tribe with a 1400mm Tornado. With 90km or so optimal+falloff with the "high damage" ammo types, very few rats will be able to touch you. And the alpha is just incredible, though I fired mine in four groups of two guns in order to counter repping rats and to land critical hits more often. The Tachyon Oracle and 425mm Rail Naga are also decent for the same purpose, though with the former you definitely must degroup the guns as described above and stagger fire in order to keep yourself from capping out while running that MWD.
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I prefer the Nighthawk for L4s. Even with 3x BCU IIs in the low slots I can still run a twin-booster setup and still have something like 7 minutes cap endurance. With perfect shield skills it's a brick. I've probably had to bail from missions less than 5 times in the last month and I tend to grind missions pretty hard.
Downside? Gets old after a while. If the worst I have to do is watch cap endurance, and make sure my drones aren't getting popped, the interest fades rather quickly. Using T1 HMs is probably contributing to this as well. It's really a "target-and-fire; rinse-and-repeat" setup, but I've always been a sucker for the Ferox hull which is why I keep using it.
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Man, how are you going to handle the impending HML nerf, Baxter? Do you think you'll have to switch ships for that? It seems like it's really going to shake up the mission-runner community a bit.