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Author Topic: Current events c Star Fraction, Moira., Veto. and Rote Kapelle  (Read 13366 times)

Casiella

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[mod]Please don't let this thread go pear-shaped. We're keeping an eye on it, of course.[/mod]
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orange

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Thank you for the overview.
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scagga

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I sort of had Seri point out about RK assisting the Sansha during the live events, and now working alongside Moira. Heh.  :yar:

I think it's less of a RP war and just a standard EVE war?

All fair to point out character's perceived inconsistencies, but I'd not view this as anything other than an RP war.  Ideally the characters one roleplays are not unidimensional, as much as one isn't usually unidimensional and consistent in the real world.  There are plausible IC reasons for all actions taken so far in my view and I would be happy to elucidate my view on why if it is desired.

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scagga

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At this point the screen-shots, kill-mails, witness statement, chat logs etc etc all add up to pretty conclusive proof of full engagement and I think there is a little actual chance of anybody believing otherwise.

Could we have some of those as is appropriate? 

Particularly screenshots, as they help flesh out this conflict.  Killmails/battles that are influential to the direction the war takes. 
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Jade Constantine

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At this point the screen-shots, kill-mails, witness statement, chat logs etc etc all add up to pretty conclusive proof of full engagement and I think there is a little actual chance of anybody believing otherwise.

Could we have some of those as is appropriate? 

Particularly screenshots, as they help flesh out this conflict.  Killmails/battles that are influential to the direction the war takes.

Screen shots are on the summit thread.
Killmails are on the relevant killboards.
Witness statements .. ditto summit thread.
Chatlogs - at this point not open to public perusal (but have been shown to the free captains who needed to assess their votes)

I'll keep my eye open for some nice screenshots as things develop further.
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Jade Constantine

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All fair to point out character's perceived inconsistencies, but I'd not view this as anything other than an RP war.  Ideally the characters one roleplays are not unidimensional, as much as one isn't usually unidimensional and consistent in the real world.  There are plausible IC reasons for all actions taken so far in my view and I would be happy to elucidate my view on why if it is desired.

Go ahead Scagga, I'd be interested to hear your take on it.
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Logan Fyreite

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Thats probably worthy of another thread perhaps. I believe the standard RK line is "we did it for lols so it doesn't count as rp" ... but I guess that wouldn't really fly with any character who took actions in space AS rp? End of the day I've got no real problem seeing RK as Sansha loyalists and its actually an interesting development of the storyline that General Soter might be working with Sansha's agents to deny freespace in Gallente Lowsec.
I think the standard RK line is "if it bring us kills in space we don't mind how we get there." Speaking for the RPing minority in RK might be a bit of an overstatement, but from my perspective, RK engaged Sansha directly when Soter/Moira. were in RK, once he left and our friends in Reaper Industries, whom had connections with some of the Sansha Loyalists, RK engaged both Loyalists, Pirates, and Anti-Sansha forces in Lowsec close to TXW. The RP around this can't easily be summed up in black and white as "we are/aren't Sansha Loyalists." Instead we are actually anarchists, more true to the sense of that movement. What I mean by that is we fan the fires of chaos and death, using the means at our disposal. In fact maybe the instability caused by Sansha's push into highsec suited our goals at destabilizing some of the governments, perhaps furthering our agents in their missions.

Long-standing dislike is inherent in the -SF- to RK relationship, fueled not only by current events but numerous previous ones, ie Misan's robbing/defection to RK from -SF- and the fallout surrounding that, "bring it in space" requests by both sides mostly marred by the fact that STIM/RK and -SF- operate mostly in separate TZ's, our Euro TZ being weak, while -SF-'s USTZ is also weak. Jade's near-constant posting about us being non-relevant, fotm, risk averse etc, our rebuttals of the same. It shouldn't come as a surprise that we'd be willing to go out of our way to try to get -SF- kills. We all know, or should know that RK erupts in colorful killboard comments when we lose ships to -SF- and similar good job ones when we kill -SF-

While this might change in the future, RK is not currently blue to Moira. We dropped in, from what I understand, in the hopes we could get a few kills on the -SF- forces attacking the POS.  It turns out we were successful there, that desire to kill, specifically -SF- largely drawn from the animosity between our two organizations, and not because we care to directly support Moira's goals, the far more interesting angle here would be to ask Soter why he flew with an anarchist organization for so long and now is pro-fed? Seems an odd juxtaposition.

Today we've seen the first transfer of actual combat pilots from Rote Kapelle to Moira so we imagine this will be a new theme.
I hadn't seen that yet, what pilots have transferred?
Rote Kapelle and Veto deploy to protect the Moira tower (helping rep it a bit)
SF die in a fire to hotdrops.
As yet Moira/Rote/Veto have conducted zero offensive activities themselves against SF infrastructure.

So state of the war. There is a pause for reflection as Moira try to repair their tower and SF make plans for future operations against a far larger threat than initially assessed.
1, It's arguable that RK and Veto deployed to protect the Moira tower, and instead deployed to kill -SF- assets.
2, it's not hotdrops, it was a single jump bridge, so a hotdrop.  Unless jade is really pushing the, imho, completely garbage personal definition of what a hotdrop is.
3, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for us to attack SF infrastructure unless a very juicy target presented itself that we could not pass up, and then I expect we would be also prepared for your counter of bringing in Rooks N Kings.

A state of war exists between -SF- and Moira, Jade grossly overstates when including RK or Veto in that swath of "war." Jade also says "a far larger threat than initially assessed," only -SF- included RK in their Ostinhell Apocalypse Now poster, so it's not like you haven't been thinking about us. (how sweet, we have been returning the favor)

TLDR; RK rp is pretty lite, but is well summed by Cass' post in the IGS thread, "To the extent that Stimulus corp can speak for Rote Kapelle (a questionable position, to be sure), we are simply here to make your ship (for all values of 'you') explode." -SF- placed themselves in a position where we were in a position to make their ships explode.  We made it happen.

Jade -> I am unsure if your question if Cass' knows what mendacity means was a truthful one. Prior to a bit of one on one with Google, I had no idea what it meant, but it seems to fit well, untruthfulness, so "Jade's mendacity (untruthfulness, the tendency to be untruthful) is staggering, makes sense to me. Just wanted to know if the definition provided there is not yours as well.
« Last Edit: 20 May 2011, 11:57 by Logan Fyreite »
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GoGo Yubari

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Also, this has to stop now. Somebody somewhere started it and now everyone's doing it.

It's risk averse - not adverse.

/grammarnazi
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Jade Constantine

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Without getting into a lengthy discussion about the ic ins and outs of the IGS propaganda from both sides etc.

From our perspective Veto/Kapelle intervention saved our war-enemies Tower (on that occassion) so it is simply natural to bundle you together. That and the fact we learned that Moira had formally requested aid etc etc and Verone saying his "we'll bury you" style comments etc.

The use of the term "hot-drop" is loose. I explained on IGS I used it for each "gank" basically because I couldn't be bothered to use to more accurate term "surprise overwhelming gank in force" or something. Just saying hot-drop is I'll grant you a bit lazy, but hey, it seems a broadly fitting term.

On the general grudge match nonsense. To be honest I largely ignore it. Whenever anybody begins to tell me how much they hate my guts on an ooc level I roll my eyes and tune out.

I consider it all IC and judge things on that basis. I don't think its that healthy or productive to get genuinely annoyed with other players in an online game.

Star Fraction players on the whole are happy to see Rote and Veto as the psychotic NBSI bad guys backing our Fascist enclosurist enemies and play on that level. The vast majority of our current player base have no idea who Bacc/Sakura and others of the ex SF era actually are and so to them its just a bunch of random pirates backing the Federal police Moira in amusing RP fashion.

So I think are mistaken in saying the OOC dislike is inherent in the relationship. From SF's perspective I can honestly tell you nobody cares anymore. It was four years ago. The whole reason I contacted Verone last week was to suggest that we just move on from the local smacktalk and fight without the vitreol *shrug* and that mainly because it was actually confusing our new players as to what the cause was.

Bottom line. SF doesn't have a grudge against Rote Kapelle. I know some might find that difficult to believe, but we simply never really discuss you guys on voice unless its some strange forum flashpoint or local show that causes a new member to say .... "who the heck are those guys?"

On infrastructure and such, yeah, I know what mean about the clash of the timezones but I think Rote+Veto is now potentially strong enough to make the attack if they wanted to. If it happens we'll have a damned good fight - if it doesn't then. To the IGS propaganda-mobile!

But ooc-wise its all good fun.
« Last Edit: 20 May 2011, 12:11 by Jade Constantine »
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Hamish Grayson

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I was under the impression that Soter had cut his ties to the Federation some time ago.
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Logan Fyreite

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From our perspective Veto/Kapelle intervention saved our war-enemies Tower (on that occassion) so it is simply natural to bundle you together. That and the fact we learned that Moira had formally requested aid etc etc and Verone saying his "we'll bury you" style comments etc.
Jade, your wording here isn't a "from our perspective" manner, it's from a this is how things are manner. Granted a grain of salt should be taken since coming from your lips and thus taken from you perspective.

The use of the term "hot-drop" is loose. I explained on IGS I used it for each "gank" basically because I couldn't be bothered to use to more accurate term "surprise overwhelming gank in force" or something. Just saying hot-drop is I'll grant you a bit lazy, but hey, it seems a broadly fitting term.
I really, honestly, think "gank" is the word you are looking for, both shorter than hot-drop and meaning overwhelming force applied to the target. Hot-drop is used, traditionally, to indicate either being jump bridged in on or dropped by capitals through a cyno, the determining factor here being a cyno.

On the general grudge match nonsense. To be honest I largely ignore it. Whenever anybody begins to tell me how much they hate my guts on an ooc level I roll my eyes and tune out.

I consider it all IC and judge things on that basis. I don't think its that healthy or productive to get genuinely annoyed with other players in an online game.
I agree here, as I feel mostly the same way, though there are a few people who I really don't like in a online game, stupid, kind of way. IC is what I was referring to, RK and to some extent Veto apparently, would go out of their ways to destroy some -SF- ships.

Star Fraction players on the whole are happy to see Rote and Veto as the psychotic NBSI bad guys backing our Fascist enclosurist enemies and play on that level. The vast majority of our current player base have no idea who Bacc/Sakura and others of the ex SF era actually are and so to them its just a bunch of random pirates backing the Federal police Moira in amusing RP fashion.

I think are mistaking in saying the OOC dislike is inherent in the relationship. From SF's perspective I can honestly tell you nobody cares anymore. It was four years ago. The whole reason I contacted Verone last week was to suggest that we just move on from the local smacktalk and fight without the vitreol *shrug* and that mainly because it was actually confusing our new players at to what the cause was.

We have a disclaimer thread on our forums, was confusing our newer players as well.  I wasn't in STIM for the -SF- stuff, so it was nice to brush up on. I was referring to the more recent flashpoints, but I see your point.  I still consider it inherent in the relationship, perhaps I overstate if I said between RK and -SF- and instead meant STIM and -SF-.

Bottom line. SF doesn't have a grudge against Rote Kapelle. I know some might find that difficult to believe, but we simply never really discuss you guys on voice unless its some strange forum flashpoint or local show that causes a new member to say .... "who the heck are those guys?"
I'd say RK on an OOC level doesn't have a grudge against -SF- but I'm not sure how true that would be, some level of animosity definitely exists between specifically, Jade, and some members of STIM, though not RK as a whole. Outside of STIM I doubt anyone cares too much. Maybe Sak. In any case,
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Bacchanalian

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On the general grudge match nonsense. To be honest I largely ignore it. Whenever anybody begins to tell me how much they hate my guts on an ooc level I roll my eyes and tune out.

You ignore it when people tell you they don't hate you OOC too.  :P  You never replied to my mail.  Does this mean beers at fanfest is a no-go?   :(

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I don't think its that healthy or productive to get genuinely annoyed with other players in an online game.

Generally agree.

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Star Fraction players on the whole are happy to see Rote and Veto as the psychotic NBSI bad guys backing our Fascist enclosurist enemies and play on that level. The vast majority of our current player base have no idea who Bacc/Sakura and others of the ex SF era actually are and so to them its just a bunch of random pirates backing the Federal police Moira in amusing RP fashion.

And I think most of us are fine with SF not getting who we are.  For the few of us who do RP, I think the general sense is that we view SF as putting a pretty face on the fight without much actual fight, and view ourselves as casting off the PR front and fancy RoE in order to roll up our sleeves and get dirty speaking with ammunition rather than words and press releases.  And I think pretty much from day 1 of Stimulus that's been the difference.  Incidentally, if they don't know who Sak or I are tell them to load up your top 10 list on the killboard:)

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So I think are mistaken in saying the OOC dislike is inherent in the relationship. From SF's perspective I can honestly tell you nobody cares anymore. It was four years ago. The whole reason I contacted Verone last week was to suggest that we just move on from the local smacktalk and fight without the vitreol *shrug* and that mainly because it was actually confusing our new players as to what the cause was.

So wait, does this mean we can get beers after all?   :D

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Bottom line. SF doesn't have a grudge against Rote Kapelle. I know some might find that difficult to believe, but we simply never really discuss you guys on voice unless its some strange forum flashpoint or local show that causes a new member to say .... "who the heck are those guys?"

Not surprising.  4 years is a long time.  Kinda crazy to think that it's actually been that long. 

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But ooc-wise its all good fun.

Here's to that.
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Jade Constantine

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Well perhaps I was a little bit over-nice to say "from our perspective". Perhaps "from any perspective" would have been more accurate. Undoubtedly the Veto/Rote intervention did save the Moira tower at that time so since thats generally our measure of your inclusion its probably objectively fair. But I mean really, its arguing about minutae really.

On the word "gank" ... you are probably right - but I just don't really like the word in an IC sense. I think it has whiny complainy connotations "omg man I was ganked!" and its tantamount to complaining about being blobbed or something. Basically its not a word that I like to use with Jade.

With regard to the general Stim thing well, maybe people will get over it eventually. I think for the health of those involved it does need to be gotten out of the system. Once it is who knows? We might manage to have fights without all the silliness in local afterwards.
 
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scagga

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All fair to point out character's perceived inconsistencies, but I'd not view this as anything other than an RP war.  Ideally the characters one roleplays are not unidimensional, as much as one isn't usually unidimensional and consistent in the real world.  There are plausible IC reasons for all actions taken so far in my view and I would be happy to elucidate my view on why if it is desired.

Go ahead Scagga, I'd be interested to hear your take on it.


Moira.

On the topic of Moira.'s tacit (I call it that) cooperation with Veto/Rote Kapelle, there are many quite plausible ways to look at it IC, which I'm sure have occured to many but have not been mentioned here yet.  I would not be suggesting that any of the possibilities mentioned are true, but they are plausible in my view.

One could infer, for instance, that Moira leadership is to a degree unscrupulous in their choice of friends, ready to turn a blind eye to the legal transgressions of those who they would accept help from.  Alternatively one could infer that Moira's leadership is made of people who view genuine friendship as superseding security status, which is a human behaviour.  They may even be planning to claim plausible deniability, stating that Veto. & RK happened to be in the right place at the right time and have their own reasons, enemy of my enemy etc etc etc. 

Is it believable? That depends on your character, and isn't grounds for questioning whether it is of IC nature in my view.

The Star Fraction

The Star Fraction is doing what, in my view, it has 'always' done.  I can't claim intricate knowledge of their workings other than what is in public domain.  The pattern tends to be that they attach themselves to an area of interest, where they aim to live by their ideals, even when it frequently ruffles feathers.  If an entity bothers them, they bite, and use what qualities they have aiming to achieve objectives they set themselves.  The entity in this scenario is Moira.

Rote Kapelle

Logan Fyreite said it best.  His organisation acts in its own interests with objectives that are independent of those of the NPC factions. His outfit generally doesn't communicate in antiquated english in space.  From an IC point of view, I would say there is an element of bloodlust in his followers, which is evidenced in how they take delight in violence.

Veto.

Distinctively classy pirates who exude Guristas sympathies.  Of course, they are not tied under Guristas authority and ROE, and are free to choose their friends and their enemies.  As far as I know, Veto has no rulebooks that tell them not to shoot valid targets if they are known to be nearby, and I have the perception that as an organisation they are well connected to the grapevine.  That they should choose to shoot targets and by doing so help a corporation they view as friends (or 'less enemies') is up to their leadership and does not have to be interpreted as anything that deviates from an IC action.  IC Verone has personal flair in his style of leadership and as such is perceived by myself to be at liberty to take however an eccentric style of engagement he wants for his corporation, manipulating the outcomes of other conflicts directly or indirectly towards his interests.

On Sansha/Guristas loyalty:

I don't agree with the view that one needs to be consistent/rigid in their loyalty to be a 'geniuine' rp'er, much like one isn't a disqualified from voting if they change their vote, or motivation for voting in real world elections.

Capsuleers can and do lose their fear of the nations from which they originate / factions with which they affiliate.  They are powerful, and may view the empires as impotent to oppose them or hunt them down.   Surely one does not become a 'Sansha loyalist' just because they fired at certain people in a certain scenario?  The alternative objective of slaughter is valid and in keeping with the frequently observed murderous nature in capsuleers.

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It is noted that the reasons these entities meet in conflict do not necessarily rule out co-existent OOC motivations.  This is not particularly important in my view.  OOC love is not a prerequisite for 'bona fide' roleplay - EvE is a passionately played game.   I've seen plenty of past evidence of OOC acrimony between the involved parties, but I can't see how that definitely invalidates me interpreting their actions as IC.   Perhaps there would have been different events if there were extra-harmonious OOC relations, but does that really matter?
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Jade Constantine

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For the few of us who do RP, I think the general sense is that we view SF as putting a pretty face on the fight without much actual fight, and view ourselves as casting off the PR front and fancy RoE in order to roll up our sleeves and get dirty speaking with ammunition rather than words and press releases.  And I think pretty much from day 1 of Stimulus that's been the difference.

Thats actually a fairly profound summary of the split in many ways. From our perspective (old-timers mainly) we'd see that when Stim gave up the PR side you were losing half your weaponry as anarchists and simply becoming thugs rather than revolutionaries. It is a difficult balance though - without firepower it doesn't matter what you say (which is the extreme problem we see with many IGS posters and minor corps etc) but without PR and a persuasive message it doesn't matter what you shoot either (which is the problem with most pvp corps essentially being essentially faceless killmail grinding statistics monsters)

Now we could easily have a reasonable discussion about the degree to which both sides have lost overall influence by losing one extreme talent or the other in this equation.

Would I prefer SF to be a 400 man alliance with a supercapital fleet fleet that was capable of hot-dropping the heck out of Evoke/Ewoks and the Goon renters? Abstractly sure I would.

But would I be able to guarentee the discipline of engagement ideology and communications standards and general intellectual quality of the organization then? Its doubtful.

Would 400 people actually "get" the idealism of the roleplay we cherish in this game and see themselves as anarchist revolutionaries seeking freespace liberation?

Almost certainly not.

I can see your perspective though I really can. In Stim certainly you are charging round shooting people and pretty much behaving like we were in Mito era SF just with flashier ships and larger gangs. But I do think your lack of politics has weakened you in terms of influence in Eve as a whole in turn.

I loved the period where you and I were the terror of the RP nationalists and everyone trembled when the black ships of the Star Fraction turned up - but the reason it happened was a mix of politics, PR and combat capability. I don't think either of us can have quite that buzz and impact again now without blending the two. We killed a lot of ships sure, but we had a genuinely hilarious time doing it and the brewing up of propaganda posters, campaign stunts, vids and general PR collateral was a big part of that.

So in some ways I think we both have a task at hand Bacc. You need to find a roleplay ethos for Rote Kapelle and some kind of consistent PR message to give meaning to the movement.

And we need to keep recruiting and practising and hiring new free captains attracted by our public relations expertise and get us up to the big fleets of last year again prior to the tomahawk craziness and dx4 implosion.

But in our hearts I suspect we both know if the split hadn't occured four years ago we'd probably have been the ones to properly kill the CVA together rather than fooling about in syndicate and blasting Sev3rance to bits on the sidelines.

*shrugs* but thats life I guess :)
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