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[Khloe]

The way I see it Morwen had the right idea. It's much easier to build and grow a subculture that has an involuntary impact on just one person: your character. The moment you 'inflict' your ideas unwillingly on a larger group, no matter the size, you will be met with resistance. Allowing people to participate and interact with your ideas is the goal, and the opportunity shouldn't be lost simply because it was forced rather than offered. The beauty of a 'voluvals' is the interpretation of the symbolism could be entirely different depending on the outlook or perspective of a subculture in the Minmatar society. Much in the same way, the interpretation of 'scripture' could be as important as the scripture itself. You can do a lot with what you are given, with plenty of opportunity to skirt doctrine without blasphemy. Add a capsuleer's unique elite status and they can pretty much say and believe whatever they like.

[Saede Riordan]

I think there are very good reasons not to have a specific quote in the Scriptures about homosexuality. Particularly one that condemns it.

1. It would draw negative attention from the press. The Amarr/Caldari being homophobes vs Gallente/Minmatar being accepting, esp. with the old joke about Gallente ship design. EVE would be portrayed in some sections of the press as being "Space gays in phallic ships fighting space homophobes".

2. It becomes a weapon to use OOC against people. "Oh, you're Amarr, you must be secretly homophobic IRL?" is what some persons would say.

3. Being a homophobe is not something that people want to do IC. How many Caldari homophobes do you know of ? even when the State has a track record for homophobia ?

4. Because people don't want to do that IC, others will challenge them about it IC, asking why they don't follow that particular piece of Scripture. This is just to undermine their position on the other Scriptures. "Oh, you don't follow that scripture? then why do you follow the others? why should anyone believe in your scripture if you don't?".

So I'd question the motivations of people that want a scripture quote about it. It would be an easy weapon to use against other players, at the cost of damaging the game's image.

as a real life member of the LGBT community, as weird as it sounds, I honestly wish there were more RP-homophobes. Just cause I think I'd have fun debating it IC. I do understand the issues that would open up because of it, and understand why the community would shy away from it, but I wish it was something we could be mature enough to handle. It is a rather red hot issue for a lot of people too, hence why there doesn't seem to be much space-racism outside of a few people.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

There's a crucial difference in people freely deciding to play homophobes and in a way forcing people into playing homophobes by adding some part of Scripture.

[Saede Riordan]

Oh I agree. Its probably not something that should be in scripture, maybe if it was ambiguous enough that there could be internal debate RP about it. But there's at least already some support for RPing from that angle at least as a Caldari, and yet no one ever seems to use it, not even internally within their blocs.

[Jev North]

To be fair, the clues are relatively subtle, so I think many people simply miss them in the formative stages of their character. On top of that, and without value judgment or getting into the reasons why, the RP  scene is basically Homoeroticism Central. Being hardline about it would mean your character'd be commiting social suicide without any real gain on their end.

[lallara zhuul]

Amarrian characters usually have not given a rats ass about social suicide among those that they perceive to be less than them.

The problem is that some of them are homosexuals as well...

EDIT: Ninja!

[Seriphyn]

I think there are very good reasons not to have a specific quote in the Scriptures about homosexuality. Particularly one that condemns it.

1. It would draw negative attention from the press. The Amarr/Caldari being homophobes vs Gallente/Minmatar being accepting, esp. with the old joke about Gallente ship design. EVE would be portrayed in some sections of the press as being "Space gays in phallic ships fighting space homophobes".

2. It becomes a weapon to use OOC against people. "Oh, you're Amarr, you must be secretly homophobic IRL?" is what some persons would say.

3. Being a homophobe is not something that people want to do IC. How many Caldari homophobes do you know of ? even when the State has a track record for homophobia ?

4. Because people don't want to do that IC, others will challenge them about it IC, asking why they don't follow that particular piece of Scripture. This is just to undermine their position on the other Scriptures. "Oh, you don't follow that scripture? then why do you follow the others? why should anyone believe in your scripture if you don't?".

So I'd question the motivations of people that want a scripture quote about it. It would be an easy weapon to use against other players, at the cost of damaging the game's image.

I agree with this, even as someone who subscribes to Caldari/Amarr homophobia (not something I RP anyway). It is preferential to just leave it as an unwritten "truth" rather than have any hard canon or quote about it. Minmatar, Gallente, Caldari, and Amarr are not RL identities; we can hate them as much as we want, really. Being gay, however, is a RL identity.

[Louella Dougans]

Minmatar, Gallente, Caldari, and Amarr are not RL identities; we can hate them as much as we want, really. Being gay, however, is a RL identity.

exactly.

someone says IC "you are a big disappointment to your mother, since you'll never have children".

For a number of people, that is going to sting OOC, it may even be a comment they've heard IRL. It's not going to be something to enjoy hearing ingame as well.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Amarrian roleplayers usually have not given a rats ass about social suicide among those that they perceive to be less than them.

The problem is that some of them are homosexuals as well...

You think it's a problem that Amarrian roleplayers are homosexuals? 

[Silas Vitalia]

Amarrian roleplayers usually have not given a rats ass about social suicide among those that they perceive to be less than them.

The problem is that some of them are homosexuals as well...

You think it's a problem that Amarrian roleplayers are homosexuals? 

I believe our Unholy Zombie Empress personally overturned those particular portions of scripture frowning on homosexuality.

[Silas Vitalia]

Sorry. Space Homosexualty.

[Lyn Farel]

Minmatar, Gallente, Caldari, and Amarr are not RL identities; we can hate them as much as we want, really. Being gay, however, is a RL identity.

exactly.

someone says IC "you are a big disappointment to your mother, since you'll never have children".

For a number of people, that is going to sting OOC, it may even be a comment they've heard IRL. It's not going to be something to enjoy hearing ingame as well.

That's already the case with religion anyway.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Minmatar, Gallente, Caldari, and Amarr are not RL identities; we can hate them as much as we want, really. Being gay, however, is a RL identity.

exactly.

someone says IC "you are a big disappointment to your mother, since you'll never have children".

For a number of people, that is going to sting OOC, it may even be a comment they've heard IRL. It's not going to be something to enjoy hearing ingame as well.

That's already the case with religion anyway.

Hence this thread.

[Louella Dougans]

There's something else too.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Terms_of_Service

You may not organize nor be a member of any corporation or group within EVE Online that is based on or advocates any anti-ethnic, anti-gay, anti-religious, racist, sexist or other hate-mongering philosophies

You may not use “role-playing” as an excuse to violate these rules. While EVE Online is a persistent world, fantasy role-playing game, the claim of role-playing is not an acceptable defense for anti-social behavior. Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy.

So, there isn't a debate to be had. Persons attempting to rp a Caldari homophobe (evidence of which appears in the PF), are just one petition away from being permanently banned. A well worded petition that emphasises some things and de-emphasises others, and a GM that won't know the exact context of any remarks made, and someone gets the permanent ban.

So the whole thing is just not going to happen. There won't be any homophobes ever, beyond the occasional troll.

[Saede Riordan]

There's something else too.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Terms_of_Service

You may not organize nor be a member of any corporation or group within EVE Online that is based on or advocates any anti-ethnic, anti-gay, anti-religious, racist, sexist or other hate-mongering philosophies

You may not use “role-playing” as an excuse to violate these rules. While EVE Online is a persistent world, fantasy role-playing game, the claim of role-playing is not an acceptable defense for anti-social behavior. Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy.

So, there isn't a debate to be had. Persons attempting to rp a Caldari homophobe (evidence of which appears in the PF), are just one petition away from being permanently banned. A well worded petition that emphasises some things and de-emphasises others, and a GM that won't know the exact context of any remarks made, and someone gets the permanent ban.

So the whole thing is just not going to happen. There won't be any homophobes ever, beyond the occasional troll.

Fair enough. No one here wants to see people getting banned.