Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Synthia on 25 Jan 2014, 16:30
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1. Clone backups are possible and exist. This is information presented in-game and in-character.
A person dies out of pod:
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa394/bloodnuns/delainen2.png)
They are Resurrected, due to having a clone in place:
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa394/bloodnuns/delainen3.png)
2. Anyone with such a backup, does not have memory of more recent events. Only the Broker does, and he uses ~unique tech~
Having established the Fact that such a backup exists and is not uncommon, we then examine the problem. The IC/OOC barrier.
Unlike a character with such a backup in place, the player has memory of the events leading to the demise of that particular clone. The player cannot un-know this.
This knowledge will inevitably affect that player's interactions with characters, particularly the character that killed their previous clone.
If they remember things, then people will call them on remembering, "how did you remember? you were dead!". This leads to ooc-arguments about "recording devices", which often ends up in "my godmode trumps your godmode", with "electronic jamming" and "nanite surveillance" and "fluid router transmission to off-world archive".
If they don't remember things, then other people will call them on it, "hey, they shot you, don't you remember?", and if they insist on not remembering, then other people start ooc-arguments, about "ret-conning" events involving other players.
This all ends up poisoning the relationships between characters, and between players.
So, what solutions are there that are not simply avoiding all RP situations where clone backups would be required? I.e. avoid ever going to someone's party, on the off chance that someone is launching an assassination attempt ?
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In my experience, the one time Esna got bumped back to a memory loss clone it was a relatively private RP, after which the other person involved and I RPed out an arc of Esna investigating by traditional methods what had happened to him.
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Echoing what Esna said, I've only done memory-loss stuff in relatively private RP where all the players knew each other well enough to handle these kinds of issues.
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This seriously happens on a regular basis ? :ugh:
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This seriously happens on a regular basis ? :ugh:
I doubt it is awfully common, but if it were to happen to any of my characters, I would take the approach of the gentlemen above - privacy, trust, resolution.
As it is I doubt it will ever be a personal consideration, but it is good to have IC in-game supported cloning tech insights outside of the wiki and common knowledge.
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Well then... If he lost all memory of the incident...
(https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/q71/1551549_807073779309221_1166644340_n.jpg)
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The concept of someone killing a capsuleer and using some form of virus to delete or rewrite their personal journals is a bit film noir-meets-scifi. However it is a little bit cool.
I approve of the image!
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This seriously happens on a regular basis ?
Not very often, no. But any RP events that aren't extremely private, or when things are brought up in "The Summit", then people start arguments, in OOC channel mostly.
Consider the following plausible scenario:
Person A plans to meet Person B. B is an associate of one of the criminal organisations, say the Angel Cartel.
A, being a rational person, sets up a backup before meeting.
At the meeting, ~something happens~ and the end result is that A's clone dies.
A, restored from backup, continues about their business.
Some Time Later, in the Summit, one of B's associates, C, says something like: "I was talking to B the other day, when you would never believe it, but A comes in, making a scene.", and then emote: *plays a video clip of A barging in wearing tassels and wielding a gun. C shoots them*
People laugh. A says "that's not what happened!"
C and/or B says "Oh really?"
Then, in OOC channel (which all participants may not be present in, because of Reasons), the argument kicks off with A saying "that's not what happened, stop lying". other people, B and C in particular, and/or their friends, will say "but wouldn't it be in-character for B or C to fabricate such a thing?", and bring up the point about "recording devices", which as I've previously mentioned, is an escalator of godmoding.
So, while it may be perfectly in character for B and C to persuade non-involved persons about the "truth" of events, it causes a storm OOC.
And that is not an uncommon occurrence. Any time someone exaggerates the actions of another, or says something that is not a 100% reproduction of the actual chatlogs, then, people start arguing in OOC channel. As if it is not possible for a character to lie or exaggerate IC.
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What's stopping A from writing a message to his backup in case of death? Something along the lines of 'Hello me. If you are watching this message you must know that the meeting had gone south' with a will that A start investigating?
Then we could start a whole plot about finding out what actually happen, and getting satisfactory compensation from those responsible.
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I have a unique take on this that I try to use to generate more roleplay. I steal a technology from other sci-fi series, that technology being a 'memorycell backup' which records and stores the memories of the person in a crystal substrate implant of some sort. The implant doesn't allow any sort of transmission of information. Too dense, not enough bandwidth. This means that in order to get the memories back, my character would have to recover her body and extract the implant. This I think creates a neat opportunity for some wheeling and dealing, generating further roleplay.
I've also got RP plot seeds in place to have those implants start becoming marketed to a wider audience, so that other capsuleers could get it. Again, the idea is to have a neat way to generate roleplay and drive conflict over control of memories. You could possibly even have someone killed specifically so their memories could be stolen if they had this implant, it opens up some interesting opportunities I think.
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What's stopping A from writing a message to his backup in case of death? Something along the lines of 'Hello me. If you are watching this message you must know that the meeting had gone south' with a will that A start investigating?
Nothing. A would know that they died, but not how they died. Was it the person they were meeting with? was there a 3rd party assassin? Jovians? Drones?
Then we could start a whole plot about finding out what actually happen, and getting satisfactory compensation from those responsible.
What actually happened is already known OOC, and if involved parties don't play exactly along IC, then... arguments ensue.
Suppose, in the previous example, that B and C wish to frame D as an assassin? A already knows OOC that this isn't true. They would not know this IC.
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I steal a technology from other sci-fi series
godmode escalator, exactly as I had mentioned before.
A has a memory chip. It is recovered. A claims that it is the truth.
But what if it had been modified? What if it is not the right chip ? Is it 100% immune to tampering? Oh really? Even when B and C hire the ~best data hackers in new eden~ to modify the contents, hmm?
it doesn't generate RP, it is just another method to claim an objective truth, and to attack other players, with the thought that if they lie IC, then they lie OOC, and are therefore someone that people shouldn't RP with at all.
That's what people do, again, and again, and again. Every time they lose an IC argument, they try and attack their opponent OOC, to drive them away from other players. Endless pointless arguments.
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RP in an environment like EVE is basically a collaborative exercise. Not all of it but situations like the one you describe are. What you are arguing against will happen regardless of what the specific topic is if you choose to RP with certain people. I don't think there is much you can do about it other than pick and choose your situations carefully.
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I have a unique take on this that I try to use to generate more roleplay. I steal a technology from other sci-fi series, that technology being a 'memorycell backup' which records and stores the memories of the person in a crystal substrate implant of some sort. The implant doesn't allow any sort of transmission of information. Too dense, not enough bandwidth. This means that in order to get the memories back, my character would have to recover her body and extract the implant. This I think creates a neat opportunity for some wheeling and dealing, generating further roleplay.
I've also got RP plot seeds in place to have those implants start becoming marketed to a wider audience, so that other capsuleers could get it. Again, the idea is to have a neat way to generate roleplay and drive conflict over control of memories. You could possibly even have someone killed specifically so their memories could be stolen if they had this implant, it opens up some interesting opportunities I think.
I have to admit that these loose creations with absolutely no base in PF make me rather uneasy...
What do we know currently ?
- Hard cloning implies copy pasting instantly the whole brain pattern (infomorph?) into a new blank clone.
=> Can it be stored into a device ? Probably, since Zainou's CEO did more or less that, and lives inside a machine.
=> However, can the brain pattern/data itself "freeze", in the sense stopping to function like when you shut down a hard drive ? Does it work like non-volatile memory that you can pause/freeze/shutdown/reload at will, or does it work more like volatile memory (RAM like) where it has to continue functioning at the risk of dying otherwise ? Can a brain pattern keep its integrity by meeting discontinuous states of data ?
=> Leading to the question that in Eve PF, the only clear fact on cloning is that memory data transfer occurs instantly without any cut or break of continuity of the brain pattern (cf capsule hardcloning and neural burner or dust live cloning). As PF revolving around hypothetical soft clone is vague and contradictory, there is no certainty that discontinuity of living memory storage is possible, as soft cloning implies that the copied memory is stored somewhere and has to wait for the host body (and its original memory) to die before being activated.
=> However considering the case of Zainou's CEO, it is perfectly possible to imagine that such data storage / transfer of a brain pattern is possible as long as there is no discontinuity involved. Which means in your case, that the memory of someone would be copied into that implant at some point and would continue to live into that implant before being retrieved and transferred into a new body. Which starts to be rather grim.
=> Also, considering that PF also states that not only mere transfer of memory is possible but also copy/pasting allowing several clones of the same individual to roam around at the same time, it is perfectly possible to assume that someone is cloned after his/her death and will try to find his/her old self still living into that implant. Weird disturbing stuff, and highly illegal. But I rather like the implication of that. Though is Zainou's transfer tech available to every capsuleer ? Not sure.
If you only implied that brain data is saved, in the sense images, sounds, or whatever pertains to declarative memory (vs procedural memory), I am not sure where PF stands on the matter, and if actual tampering with memory is possible to that point, as it is a lot more complicated than just copy pasting a pattern (as you will have to actually understand how everything work). Which leads back to my other thread on memory tampering.
Yes, it makes me definitely uneasy. Why not just play along with what already exists ? I can understand the need and the reason why soft clones are used (since even CCP said no then yes then no then maybe...), but that's already far fetched.
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A has a memory chip. It is recovered. A claims that it is the truth.
But what if it had been modified? What if it is not the right chip ? Is it 100% immune to tampering? Oh really? Even when B and C hire the ~best data hackers in new eden~ to modify the contents, hmm?
Cool, then that's happened, and A thinks something is true that isn't.
At the end of the day, it really comes down to people agreeing with each other out of character. In any sort of scenario that happens like this, the parties involved have to be okay with it, and if not, why are they putting their character in a position where it could happen in the first place? Plenty of character's don't even have softclones, and just use prudence to avoid untimely demise out of pod. It really comes down to the parties involved being in alignment OOCly in the first place, and if not, avoid RPing with those people or putting your character in a situation where this sort of thing could happen. Saede's only been killed out of pod once, to my knowledge, and she lost all the memories she had going into that event, the body wasn't recoverable, and that was that. Sure I could have tried to apply some handwavium about remote transmissions or somesuch, or made a big deal out of it happening, but why would I want to? What does it accomplish really to start fights like that OOC? Better to stay on good terms with people OOC and agree going into a situation like that how its going to resolve itself.
=> Can it be stored into a device ? Probably, since Zainou's CEO did more or less that, and lives inside a machine.
=> However, can the brain pattern/data itself "freeze", in the sense stopping to function like when you shut down a hard drive ? Does it work like non-volatile memory that you can pause/freeze/shutdown/reload at will, or does it work more like volatile memory (RAM like) where it has to continue functioning at the risk of dying otherwise ? Can a brain pattern keep its integrity by meeting discontinuous states of data ?
The way I've always viewed it in light of softclones, (which the text Synthia posted in topic confirms existed) that there is a form of non-volatile memory, but that using the data generated by the non-volatile memory to 'emulate' the brain outside of someone's head is extremely difficult and is something that only Zainou (and the sleepers) can do.
=> Leading to the question that in Eve PF, the only clear fact on cloning is that memory data transfer occurs instantly without any cut or break of continuity of the brain pattern (cf capsule hardcloning and neural burner or dust live cloning). As PF revolving around hypothetical soft clone is vague and contradictory, there is no certainty that discontinuity of living memory storage is possible, as soft cloning implies that the copied memory is stored somewhere and has to wait for the host body (and its original memory) to die before being activated.
I disagree, I think the reason that the stored memory can't be activated before the original dies has nothing to do with technical capabilities and everything to do with concord saying 'there can only be one of you running around, don't do that'.
=> However considering the case of Zainou's CEO, it is perfectly possible to imagine that such data storage / transfer of a brain pattern is possible as long as there is no discontinuity involved. Which means in your case, that the memory of someone would be copied into that implant at some point and would continue to live into that implant before being retrieved and transferred into a new body. Which starts to be rather grim.
Possible. This is the 'Eclipse Phase' perspective, which is that the implant can outright emulate the brain and have the mind continue running on the implant. I disagree and take the 'Pandora's Star' perspective, that the implant is just memory storage. Audio/video and maybe, maybe some other senses. The reason I take that perspective, is because I assume that the Zainou tech being used to emulate Todo's brain and allowing him to exist as a person on a computer is likely fabulously complicated and probably takes some extremely high end supercomputing technology. Not something you could stuff into an implant.
=> Also, considering that PF also states that not only mere transfer of memory is possible but also copy/pasting allowing several clones of the same individual to roam around at the same time, it is perfectly possible to assume that someone is cloned after his/her death and will try to find his/her old self still living into that implant. Weird disturbing stuff, and highly illegal. But I rather like the implication of that. Though is Zainou's transfer tech available to every capsuleer ? Not sure.
Interesting stuff indeed. It opens some really interesting possibilities. What if the implant is recovered by unsavoury types, the person's mind is downloaded into a new body, and they're repetitively tortured? Nasty stuff possible. As for Zainou's tech, I figure its just that a really really advanced computer is required to take a brain scan produced via soft/hard clone, and emulate it out in a computer, essentially simulating the entire brain with sufficient fidelity to actively function as it would a physical brain. I don't think that tech is particularly common, and my character certainly doesn't have access to it.
If you only implied that brain data is saved, in the sense images, sounds, or whatever pertains to declarative memory (vs procedural memory), I am not sure where PF stands on the matter, and if actual tampering with memory is possible to that point, as it is a lot more complicated than just copy pasting a pattern (as you will have to actually understand how everything work). Which leads back to my other thread on memory tampering.
I think of the backup as a recording, it takes sensory data, and stores it. It turns the character's eyes and ears into video and audio recorders and stores the data on an internal chip. It might not even be possible to directly reimplant the memories. If the chip was recovered, the character might have to just watch the recording from the implant. No different then if you had a micro-video camera implanted inside your eye really.
And no, it doesn't exist in the PF, we effectively invented it through a bunch of roleplay between myself, Scherezad, and a few others. The idea was to create something that would possibly become widely used and create interesting potential RP. The point was never to godmode, it was to add some diversity to the RP scene with player created stuff.
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At the end of the day, it really comes down to people agreeing with each other out of character.
This is precisely why these types of situations are best handled in small groups with players you know. Managing anything OOCly with players you don't have experience with is a nightmare bordering on the impossible.
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What's stopping A from writing a message to his backup in case of death? Something along the lines of 'Hello me. If you are watching this message you must know that the meeting had gone south' with a will that A start investigating?
Then we could start a whole plot about finding out what actually happen, and getting satisfactory compensation from those responsible.
Esna didn't do this the first time; now he does. Actually, the last time he went into a situation where he considered death to be a serious risk and he'd really want to know what happened, he lugged along a fairly significant (small suitcase) electronics suite to make sure he would.
This seriously happens on a regular basis ? :ugh:
It's happened once in my ~6 years RPing. I don't think that's a terribly regular basis. After that, Esna got a lot more paranoid about security.
EDIT:
At the end of the day, it really comes down to people agreeing with each other out of character.
This is precisely why these types of situations are best handled in small groups with players you know. Managing anything OOCly with players you don't have experience with is a nightmare bordering on the impossible.
Yeeeeeeup. This is something I've run into before as well. You need to have some OOC cooperation. Going back to the example I gave, I had agreed with the player beforehand that Esna would be able to detective out an idea of what had happened; there was no argument over what he could and couldn't have found, because we were cooperating from pretty early on.
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I disagree, I think the reason that the stored memory can't be activated before the original dies has nothing to do with technical capabilities and everything to do with concord saying 'there can only be one of you running around, don't do that'.
Well you can disagree, but you can't say for sure, like I can't as well. That's what puts me off in the first place : we simply don't know much about cloning.
=> However considering the case of Zainou's CEO, it is perfectly possible to imagine that such data storage / transfer of a brain pattern is possible as long as there is no discontinuity involved. Which means in your case, that the memory of someone would be copied into that implant at some point and would continue to live into that implant before being retrieved and transferred into a new body. Which starts to be rather grim.
Possible. This is the 'Eclipse Phase' perspective, which is that the implant can outright emulate the brain and have the mind continue running on the implant. I disagree and take the 'Pandora's Star' perspective, that the implant is just memory storage. Audio/video and maybe, maybe some other senses. The reason I take that perspective, is because I assume that the Zainou tech being used to emulate Todo's brain and allowing him to exist as a person on a computer is likely fabulously complicated and probably takes some extremely high end supercomputing technology. Not something you could stuff into an implant.
Pandora Star clearly states that it's the same individual in a new body, so it's definitely more than just declarative memory. The situation becomes interesting when new-teen Dudley finds old-lobotomized Dudley that is not dead and how their different experiences have shaped them both differently while still sharing the exact same original mind.
Anyway, we have no clue if such storage is possible in Eve.
=> Also, considering that PF also states that not only mere transfer of memory is possible but also copy/pasting allowing several clones of the same individual to roam around at the same time, it is perfectly possible to assume that someone is cloned after his/her death and will try to find his/her old self still living into that implant. Weird disturbing stuff, and highly illegal. But I rather like the implication of that. Though is Zainou's transfer tech available to every capsuleer ? Not sure.
Interesting stuff indeed. It opens some really interesting possibilities. What if the implant is recovered by unsavoury types, the person's mind is downloaded into a new body, and they're repetitively tortured? Nasty stuff possible. As for Zainou's tech, I figure its just that a really really advanced computer is required to take a brain scan produced via soft/hard clone, and emulate it out in a computer, essentially simulating the entire brain with sufficient fidelity to actively function as it would a physical brain. I don't think that tech is particularly common, and my character certainly doesn't have access to it.
For the torture part, Takeshi Kovacs trilogy has a very grim and interesting take on virtual torture, and uses similar implant tech like in Pandora Star, except that it's not just storage, but it can be waken up without a new body with a correct interface and people can start to torture the mind inside as they see fit, with compression of time where it can take centuries inside for a few seconds outside. However, no clue how it works in Eve again :/
For Zainou I think iirc that the chronicles speak about a real transfer where Zainou actually lives in a machine, rather than a simple artificial construct looking like him (similar difference made in Greg Mandel from Hamilton). But I may be wrong.
If you only implied that brain data is saved, in the sense images, sounds, or whatever pertains to declarative memory (vs procedural memory), I am not sure where PF stands on the matter, and if actual tampering with memory is possible to that point, as it is a lot more complicated than just copy pasting a pattern (as you will have to actually understand how everything work). Which leads back to my other thread on memory tampering.
I think of the backup as a recording, it takes sensory data, and stores it. It turns the character's eyes and ears into video and audio recorders and stores the data on an internal chip. It might not even be possible to directly reimplant the memories. If the chip was recovered, the character might have to just watch the recording from the implant. No different then if you had a micro-video camera implanted inside your eye really.
And no, it doesn't exist in the PF, we effectively invented it through a bunch of roleplay between myself, Scherezad, and a few others. The idea was to create something that would possibly become widely used and create interesting potential RP. The point was never to godmode, it was to add some diversity to the RP scene with player created stuff.
A backup like a hidden camera in the eye or wherever, recording stuff happening in live is perfectly fine and mundane. I referred to a full declarative memory storage where the tech actually needs to dive into the brain synpases, understand them, and take out all the data and translate it into digital data, which is... not mundane.
And yes, I understand. I am always torn when it comes to such matters. I am myself trying to set up something revolving around direct synaptic communication between two individuals, being able to communicate everything, which means being able to "hear" the other one the same way you hear yourself thinking. I have been thinking about it for years now trying to see how it fits or not into PF and what I can accommodate or what I just have to thrash. This basing myself on skillbooks, VR and capsule interfacing. Still not sure if it fits or not, so I'm not stepping further with it atm.
I may be some kind of PF ayatollah.
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Isn't the PF rather clear on the subject? Instantaneous cloning is only possible with the hardware of the capsule and the implants, or - with limited reach - the DUST technology. Soft cloning is possible, with the broker being the anomaly of essentially being unlimited (cought some jovian space herpes as payback, though), as evidenced by everyone 'cept Heth having access to it, without much drama about whether or not this memory loss will impact them.
Clone jumping, essentially instantaneous, is possible within certain boundaries (Capsule linked, timeout as "trauma").
So there you go. We've got massive capabilities with technology to provide everything one can possibly need in the case of memory loss, so that backtracking to see where something might have happened is fairly simple. You can have cameras in your eye implants, uploading everything seamlessly to a protected cloud. If you go meet questionable elements you can make a note of it - if that's the last piece of information, then something must have happened there. Third party surveillance data? You met at a certain station, maybe security cameras have picked something up, try to find out where you've last been seen alive.
This opens up for so many possibilities and angles of roleplay to rely on and/or tamper with this data, that one can craft and endless amount of logical and engaging situations.
Important bits are, however, having OOC contact with your enemy, so agree on at least some things prior, just as with any physical conflict situation, else we just have poweremoting and pulling things out of crevices galore.
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And yes, I understand. I am always torn when it comes to such matters. I am myself trying to set up something revolving around direct synaptic communication between two individuals, being able to communicate everything, which means being able to "hear" the other one the same way you hear yourself thinking. I have been thinking about it for years now trying to see how it fits or not into PF and what I can accommodate or what I just have to thrash. This basing myself on skillbooks, VR and capsule interfacing. Still not sure if it fits or not, so I'm not stepping further with it atm.
Alexylva Paradox actually has technology like this, and we roleplay that its possible albeit not common. All of the "coordinators" our board of directors, are networked together in this manner, and there are several civilian co-ops that we RP as existing in this fashion as well. TS-F also has something like this, (though they have Sansha Handwavium technology) it doesn't seem like something that would be too out there considering the EVE universe. Where Saede ICly got the technology we say is 'galnet resources on Gallente techno-communes'.
I don't mind stretching the bounds of the PF, as long as you're not doing something that directly contradicts the existing PF.
Pandora Star clearly states that it's the same individual in a new body, so it's definitely more than just declarative memory. The situation becomes interesting when new-teen Dudley finds old-lobotomized Dudley that is not dead and how their different experiences have shaped them both differently while still sharing the exact same original mind.
Anyway, we have no clue if such storage is possible in Eve.
I like to think it is, if for no other reason then that it opens up some interesting RP opportunities, and makes the setting more 'sci-fi transhuman' feeling.
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And yes, I understand. I am always torn when it comes to such matters. I am myself trying to set up something revolving around direct synaptic communication between two individuals, being able to communicate everything, which means being able to "hear" the other one the same way you hear yourself thinking. I have been thinking about it for years now trying to see how it fits or not into PF and what I can accommodate or what I just have to thrash. This basing myself on skillbooks, VR and capsule interfacing. Still not sure if it fits or not, so I'm not stepping further with it atm.
Alexylva Paradox actually has technology like this, and we roleplay that its possible albeit not common. All of the "coordinators" our board of directors, are networked together in this manner, and there are several civilian co-ops that we RP as existing in this fashion as well. TS-F also has something like this, (though they have Sansha Handwavium technology) it doesn't seem like something that would be too out there considering the EVE universe. Where Saede ICly got the technology we say is 'galnet resources on Gallente techno-communes'.
I don't mind stretching the bounds of the PF, as long as you're not doing something that directly contradicts the existing PF.
Pandora Star clearly states that it's the same individual in a new body, so it's definitely more than just declarative memory. The situation becomes interesting when new-teen Dudley finds old-lobotomized Dudley that is not dead and how their different experiences have shaped them both differently while still sharing the exact same original mind.
Anyway, we have no clue if such storage is possible in Eve.
I like to think it is, if for no other reason then that it opens up some interesting RP opportunities, and makes the setting more 'sci-fi transhuman' feeling.
As can be seen in this thread, the difficulty with that approach is getting other players to accept your technological inventions. This is not easy.
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This is precisely why these types of situations are best handled in small groups with players you know. Managing anything OOCly with players you don't have experience with is a nightmare bordering on the impossible.
Exactly.
As can be seen in this thread, the difficulty with that approach is getting other players to accept your technological inventions. This is not easy.
Quite. godmode escalators.
Putting the thread back on track, ignoring whatever technological doodads people have inserted from other settings, then we're no further forward than in the OP.
Nobody has suggested anything that is workable in any way, other than doing what I said right at the start:
So, what solutions are there that are not simply avoiding all RP situations where clone backups would be required? I.e. avoid ever going to someone's party, on the off chance that someone is launching an assassination attempt ?
which means, snubbing invitations by people you don't know. Which means newer players find it hard to establish themselves, and are excluded.
Any better ideas ?
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Personally, I've found the simplistic PF approach the most useful - similar to what Des and Esna said. Limit yourself to what is generally accepted: soft clones, memory loss, go watch security cameras or talk to witnesses. If someone tries to balk at any of that, point them to the PF, flavor text, or tell them to go suck a toad.
That being said, if you go to an event and someone tries to godmode your character - guess what, it didn't happen. I literally just ignore someone else's godmoding until they get the point. If you want to allow something to happen at an event on the level of assassination, coordinate it OOCly. Anything else is just a clusterfrack.
Edit: I don't feel like I emphasized this enough. The problem in your example is the person attempting the assassination without OOC organization. The community needs to self-correct with that player, not other RPers avoid events.
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Personally, I've found the simplistic PF approach the most useful - similar to what Des and Esna said. Limit yourself to what is generally accepted: soft clones, memory loss, go watch security cameras or talk to witnesses. If someone tries to balk at any of that, point them to the PF, flavor text, or tell them to go suck a toad.
That being said, if you go to an event and someone tries to godmode your character - guess what, it didn't happen. I literally just ignore someone else's godmoding until they get the point. If you want to allow something to happen at an event on the level of assassination, coordinate it OOCly. Anything else is just a clusterfrack.
Edit: I don't feel like I emphasized this enough. The problem in your example is the person attempting the assassination without OOC organization. The community needs to self-correct with that player, not other RPers avoid events.
This essentially. It comes down to consent. Unlike the rest of EVE, RP is a consensual activity. Nothing can happen to your character that you don't allow to happen. So if someone tries something that you don't want to happen OOCly, or don't have arranged OOCly, then you're not under any obligation to acknowledge their RP at all, moreover, if you're at an event and something like that happens, you can request the event manager kick the person from the channel. If they refuse, I'd just leave the channel and tell them you don't want to participate if that sort of thing is going to happen.
If stuff like this is happening without OOC communication its a problem on the part of the player doing it, and we as a community should be able to collectively go 'nope' when someone pulls out their laser chaingun in the middle of the Broken Piano and proceeds to /emote murder everyone in the room (As an example). The softclone/backups, whatever shouldn't factor in because your character shouldn't be put into that situation without your consent in the first place. I think the problem comes when someone /me's pulling a gun, and then someone else responds by /me'ing a rail rifle out of their arse, and then the grenades start coming out and before you know what happened you've got giant nanite spiders and impossibly strong robotic supersoldiers battling supermutants as they fall off the platform of a hanger bay (for example). So the worst way to respond is to escalate, the best way to respond is communication out of character and mutual understanding, with moderation stepping in if required. Consent is key, everything else really comes secondarily.
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RP being a consensual activity is well and all, but that doesn't change the fact that we all play characters in the same universe. If player A and player B do not see things the same way and are unable to find a compromise, then A will continue to invent his stuff and B his own stuff, both conflicting each other. All well and good, they can ignore each other as suggested, but when it starts to involve other people, say player C, or even worse, a whole public audience, then it's where RP realistically can't just remain confined to its own isolated bubble. We are all affected eventually. And that's the damn issue where people disagree OOCly on things.
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But there will never be perfect or complete OOC consensus on anything. It just isn't going to happen and we all know it. As long as the places our idea of the universe conflict aren't places where others will be forced into, I don't see it as an issue. I mean, there is an alliance of thousands of people that spam fofofofofofofofofofofofofofofo in local.
Everyone has their own slightly different headcanon, as long as the differences in how we envision the universe don't lead to cornering each other in nonfunctional RP conflicts, I don't see the issue. Its pretty easy to avoid too, you don't agree something exists a certain way? You don't have to make use of that thing. But if someone else does, as long as it doesn't force your character's hand (and how could it, RP being consensual and all?) it shouldn't be an issue.
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How would you make your character (A) react when another character (B) brings up ICly something on which you as a player (p-A) is in fundamental disagree with the other player behind (p-B) ?
Like the most stupid example but likely to happen :
Character B : "What do you think of soft clones ?"
Character A : "Soft clones do not exist"
Character B : "Of course they exist, I have several of them, as well as saves in an implant"
Character A : "Liar"
=> OOC drama.
Ok there, fine, players A and B start to ignore each other, as well as their characters.
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Let's take another example. Someone says his character B has a special ability that you disagree with OOCly.
Character A and B take part in an event. Player B starts to use his ability even knowing you disagree with it, after all, he is free to have his fun too, which is legitimate.
How are you supposed to explain that to yourself, and your character ? How to react ICly after something like this happens ?
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A well know and discussed case now.
Player A blows up player's B ship in space. There is nothing to loot, but player A claims that he abducted player B crew as part of his RP.
Player B disagrees OOCly and claims ICly that never happened.
Player A doesn't care and sells those slaves to someone else, player C, who starts to do all sort of stuff with them.
Eventually player A can still claim it's fake, that it's other people and not his crew and it will be up to everyone ICly to believe him or not. But it will still make a lot of OOC drama behind. That's basic godmodding, even out of good intentions.
At best it will lead to disagreeable solipsism, at worst both versions of what happened are conflicting. Most of the time it will just be 2 versions of what happened conflicting but as they are exposed ICly, everyone can ICly deny them, so it's fine. But what isn't is the OOC behind.
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The only solution presented, again and again, with nobody saying anything new is:
"pre-script it all OOC", "small, trusted scenarios".
Which we already knew.
And which means, no surprises, nothing unexpected, nothing that isn't 100% pre-arranged.
Which means, that a scenario happening in a public setting, e.g. 2 players arranging something at someone else's event, where there will be players who are not in on the plot. those other players, will not be permitted to interact with RP that is happening in the same place as they are. A great big public snub.
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I don't think there is a solution.
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The solution is to not try to freaking assassinate people at events. I mean, seriously, it's not that hard. Soft clones are so widely accepted now due to PF hinting and CCP actors acknowledging them, I would be totally fine with ignoring someone ICly who tries to argue against them. But as far as random violence in public and crazy new unicorn technology, it is simple: don't do it. If you do it, prepare to be ignored like someone claiming their battleship has no crew.
People trying to invent new things that have no basis whatsoever in the Eve universe are typically just trying to be sexy and original. Sorry, this is an MMO. There is no originality from players - we are in a premade world with its own canon.
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People trying to invent new things that have no basis whatsoever in the Eve universe are typically just trying to be sexy and original. Sorry, this is an MMO. There is no originality from players - we are in a premade world with its own canon.
Alrighty, we're getting somewhere now.
I don't think there is a solution.
I don't see one either, that's why I started the thread to begin with. See if there was something I was missing.
So, while clone backups are possible, and useful in cases of genuine accidents, what then is their usefulness in RP? other than situations for showing off? E.g. "I explored an uncharted world" and other such grandstanding? Is there a use for them in RP ?
Or is it just one of those things that has no direct usefulness in RP, because using it just gets messy and overcomplicated ?
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People trying to invent new things that have no basis whatsoever in the Eve universe are typically just trying to be sexy and original. Sorry, this is an MMO. There is no originality from players - we are in a premade world with its own canon.
Alrighty, we're getting somewhere now.
I don't think there is a solution.
I don't see one either, that's why I started the thread to begin with. See if there was something I was missing.
So, while clone backups are possible, and useful in cases of genuine accidents, what then is their usefulness in RP? other than situations for showing off? E.g. "I explored an uncharted world" and other such grandstanding? Is there a use for them in RP ?
Or is it just one of those things that has no direct usefulness in RP, because using it just gets messy and overcomplicated ?
I think soft clones have plenty of great uses since they are so widely accepted, but only in the case of planned circumstances. There is no way to avoid the clusterbomb of OOC rage if you try to force someone into using a soft clone through some violent demonstration in public.
But in one's own fiction, or in an internal arc with friends that others may or may not hear about after the fact (and thus not able to cause a spastic panic OOCly), more power to you.
So if by "direct usefulness" you mean public events with random players able to react to you realtime, then I would agree there is no usefulness whatsoever.
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People make too big a deal of these situations.
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People make too big a deal of these situations.
By and large, I agree. It is not difficult to have semi-public arcs that have some OOC coordination for these types of situations. People desperately trying to fit these situations into fully public events is usually a desperate Mary Sue trying to be unleashed.
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The solution is to not try to freaking assassinate people at events.
/thread
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If you want to kill someone that you do not get along with OOC, do it in space. Nothing worse than kids from 2 sides of the street waving their sticks and toy guns fighting over who's imaginary shot hit who.
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If you want to kill someone that you do not get along with OOC, do it in space. Nothing worse than kids from 2 sides of the street waving their sticks and toy guns fighting over who's imaginary shot hit who.
They both lost to the third kid with magic missiles.
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Lyn brings up some interesting scenarios so I'll address that first
How would you make your character (A) react when another character (B) brings up ICly something on which you as a player (p-A) is in fundamental disagree with the other player behind (p-B) ?
Like the most stupid example but likely to happen :
Character B : "What do you think of soft clones ?"
Character A : "Soft clones do not exist"
Character B : "Of course they exist, I have several of them, as well as saves in an implant"
Character A : "Liar"
=> OOC drama.
Ok there, fine, players A and B start to ignore each other, as well as their characters.
I think the simplest solution is to not bring it up. This is of course a very 'meh' solution, but it works well in a lot of cases. To give a bit of an example, Saede and Ava have a lot of very fundamental differences in perspective surrounding religion, philosophy and Minmatar society. Saede's solution to avoiding conflict with Ava is to not bring it up, thus starting arguments. Anther example, my father is a republican, I'm a (dirty) liberal, and we don't remotely see eye to eye on it, but we still manage to peacefully interact as long as we don't discuss politics. So if you have a fundemental disagreement with a player on the nature of canon, you can just avoid talking about it and starting unneeded fights. To solve you example then, the best solution would have been for player B to not bring it up in the first place when they knew it had to potential to create conflict. This isn't an amazing solution I'll admit. The better solution would be for the players to come to some sort of consensus, but when that's not possible, just choosing not to force the issue isn't a terrible way to go about it.
Let's take another example. Someone says his character B has a special ability that you disagree with OOCly.
Character A and B take part in an event. Player B starts to use his ability even knowing you disagree with it, after all, he is free to have his fun too, which is legitimate.
How are you supposed to explain that to yourself, and your character ? How to react ICly after something like this happens ?
I'm not sure what you might be referring to here, but lets go with a relatively extreme example of someone deciding they're a wizard and starting to sling magic around everywhere. The solution to this is really just, ignore it, don't let it effect your character. In most cases people won't force something on your character, and if they do you can call them out for the more relevant OOC issue of them godmodding your character, then of the issue of whatever it is they're doing. If they're not actually effecting your character, then its pretty easy to just let them have their weird fun and just let it go. Again, its not an amazing solution, but there are solutions.
A well know and discussed case now.
Player A blows up player's B ship in space. There is nothing to loot, but player A claims that he abducted player B crew as part of his RP.
Player B disagrees OOCly and claims ICly that never happened.
This is a pretty clear case of outright godmodding and should rightly be called out as such.
Player A doesn't care and sells those slaves to someone else, player C, who starts to do all sort of stuff with them.
This escalates further with not only godmodding but another player (C) being party to the godmodding. If I were player A in this case, I would contact player C and see if something couldn't be worked out with them. Godmodding like this is only really legitimate if other players identify it as legitimate. If player C doesn't go along with it, the buck stops there. This is a case where the community shouldn't be supporting/endorsing godmodding in that manor, its poor form.
Eventually player A can still claim it's fake, that it's other people and not his crew and it will be up to everyone ICly to believe him or not. But it will still make a lot of OOC drama behind. That's basic godmodding, even out of good intentions.
At best it will lead to disagreeable solipsism, at worst both versions of what happened are conflicting. Most of the time it will just be 2 versions of what happened conflicting but as they are exposed ICly, everyone can ICly deny them, so it's fine. But what isn't is the OOC behind.
It is godmodding, I agree. But its not caused by having disagreements about the canon, its outright infringing on another player's existence without their consent, and that's not okay. If someone came to me and said they wanted to capture my crew after they'd blown up my ship, I'd probably go along with it. But if they just went ahead and did it without asking, I'd consider that godmodding and (I think rightly) call them out on it. To give another example. If someone wanted to turn their character into a suicide bomber and blow my character up with it, if they talked about it with me beforehand, I would probably agree to it and help them sort something cool out (because yeah! roleplay conflicts), but if they just ran up to my character somewhere random, and tried that, I'd remove my character from the channel, and again, call them out on it OOCly. That's really in my mind the best way to deal with that sort of godmodding, don't legitimize it by responding to it or giving it the time of day ICly. Its an OOC issue and should be treated as such.
People trying to invent new things that have no basis whatsoever in the Eve universe are typically just trying to be sexy and original. Sorry, this is an MMO. There is no originality from players - we are in a premade world with its own canon.
I disagree. As long as there's no conflict with the existing canon, I see no reason expanding the universe. I mean, my corporation is out in wormhole space forming our own space civilisation right now. That's pretty original. Should we be denied and told we can't start our own faction because 'there is no originality from players and this is a premade world?' I don't think so at all. There's tons of originality and room for player made stuff in the universe. Napaani, Happy Chips, Starsi, there's all sorts of player made things in the universe, and I think saying 'no, you can't make stuff up' is unnecessarily restrictive to everyone. Where would we be if we could only roleplay within the bounds of existing canon? How many times would we have walked the same tired roads in 10 years of RP? After the 300th slaver vs. nonslaver argument in the summit, it starts to get stale and people start looking for something new. This is supposed to be a living breathing universe, and it should be allowed to do so.
So, while clone backups are possible, and useful in cases of genuine accidents, what then is their usefulness in RP? other than situations for showing off? E.g. "I explored an uncharted world" and other such grandstanding? Is there a use for them in RP ?
Or is it just one of those things that has no direct usefulness in RP, because using it just gets messy and overcomplicated ?
I think so. As an example, I think it was about half a year ago, that Katrina Oniseki was assassinated outside a restaurant by a dust merc with a high powered rifle. This kicked off quite a bit of very interesting seeming RP, and while I wasn't involved in it, from the sidelines it seemed like a pretty awesome arc, with Katrina not only trying to deal with her violent death and memory loss, but also hunting down the people who hired the mercenary and all of that. Its entirely possible to use softclones to create cool RP events, it just (like anything else) requires some application of tact.
In closing:
The solution is to not try to freaking assassinate people at events.
/thread
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I disagree. As long as there's no conflict with the existing canon, I see no reason expanding the universe. I mean, my corporation is out in wormhole space forming our own space civilisation right now. That's pretty original. Should we be denied and told we can't start our own faction because 'there is no originality from players and this is a premade world?' I don't think so at all. There's tons of originality and room for player made stuff in the universe. Napaani, Happy Chips, Starsi, there's all sorts of player made things in the universe, and I think saying 'no, you can't make stuff up' is unnecessarily restrictive to everyone. Where would we be if we could only roleplay within the bounds of existing canon? How many times would we have walked the same tired roads in 10 years of RP? After the 300th slaver vs. nonslaver argument in the summit, it starts to get stale and people start looking for something new. This is supposed to be a living breathing universe, and it should be allowed to do so.
Wormholes, colonies, etc., all exist within the Eve universe very explicitly and logically. There's a difference between utilizing material in interesting ways and inventing off the wall unicorn stuff. And things like Napaani were again, developed based on the stuff we were given within the Eve universe. Granted, that one had more invention in it than normal - but it was also done very well, was an uncontroversial idea, and was widely accepted by a community that wanted to use it.
Player extrapolation of already existing concepts or material is entirely different than attempting to completely invent something - especially something in the area of cloning, implants, and other controversial topics within the community that have major implications for other players if the inventor attempts to use or mention them publicly.
People can go ahead and invent what they want, but they certainly can't expect the community to acknowledge their invention in any meaningful way.
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I think that's largely a case of what some of us consider reasonable extrapolation off existing canon, and while others of us think something is completely off the wall. In that case, I think it comes down to what the community decides. If someone invents something, or comes up with some new tech or somesuch, then its up to the community to decide whether or not to embrace it, both ICly and OOCly. I don't think that's a reason not to try to put things out there, anymore then in real life your oddball invention might be hailed as the innovation of a generation, or it might be completely ignored and left into the dustbin of history.
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I think that's largely a case of what some of us consider reasonable extrapolation off existing canon, and while others of us think something is completely off the wall. In that case, I think it comes down to what the community decides. If someone invents something, or comes up with some new tech or somesuch, then its up to the community to decide whether or not to embrace it, both ICly and OOCly. I don't think that's a reason not to try to put things out there, anymore then in real life your oddball invention might be hailed as the innovation of a generation, or it might be completely ignored and left into the dustbin of history.
Sure, there is nuance in much of this. But the primary difference in what often gets balked at is twofold: is it tech, and will it dramatically effect your interaction with other players. People tend to back away from made up technology because the implications are almost always huge and unforeseen, which leads to altering (and often godmoding) interactions with other players.
For something like Napaani, it has no effect on players who don't like it. They simply don't use it. You can't ignore tech in such a way, especially when it comes to things like cloning. Everyone uses clones, thus your invention is now declaring how their character's technology works. That is godmoding.
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I have not heard or heard of any complaints regarding my public use of a soft clone in the aforementioned story I ran. To my knowledge, everybody was completely fine with the concept, and nobody cried foul when Katrina got her chest blown out on a Sunday by a rail rifle and woke up fifty light years away thinking it was still Thursday.
I am thus, inclined to suggest that the real issue here is that people don't want to be told when their character is dead. As long as it's someone else taking the bullet, they honestly could not give a flying frig.
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For something like Napaani, it has no effect on players who don't like it. They simply don't use it. You can't ignore tech in such a way, especially when it comes to things like cloning. Everyone uses clones, thus your invention is now declaring how their character's technology works. That is godmoding.
I don't think its declaring anything. I think its really no different then Napaani. The character can always choose to just ignore it or not use it. Like softcloning, like happy chips, like anything else really.
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I think soft clones have plenty of great uses since they are so widely accepted, but only in the case of planned circumstances. There is no way to avoid the clusterbomb of OOC rage if you try to force someone into using a soft clone through some violent demonstration in public.
But in one's own fiction, or in an internal arc with friends that others may or may not hear about after the fact (and thus not able to cause a spastic panic OOCly), more power to you.
So if by "direct usefulness" you mean public events with random players able to react to you realtime, then I would agree there is no usefulness whatsoever.
So, when you connect to an RP venue, it is an event that has been publicised, and a group of people are present, and someone starts doing something, then unless you're in on it, then you just have to stand and stare, because any deviation from the script, by anyone, screws everything up?
It's not exactly making large events attractive or welcoming, is it ?
People tend to back away from made up technology because the implications are almost always huge and unforeseen, which leads to altering (and often godmoding) interactions with other players.
Only CCP gets to define technologies, because they're universal. Players can do whatever, culturally, because of 'it's a big cluster', and a little corner of space could have some cultural difference.
It would be nice if people would stop trying to derail the thread, with descriptions of whatever made-up tech they want other players to accept. That's not the subject here. Make up a new thread if you want.
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It would be nice if people would stop trying to derail the thread, with descriptions of whatever made-up tech they want other players to accept. That's not the subject here. Make up a new thread if you want.
(http://www.massmailsoftware.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/im-sorry.png)
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I have not heard or heard of any complaints regarding my public use of a soft clone in the aforementioned story I ran. To my knowledge, everybody was completely fine with the concept, and nobody cried foul when Katrina got her chest blown out on a Sunday by a rail rifle and woke up fifty light years away thinking it was still Thursday.
I am thus, inclined to suggest that the real issue here is that people don't want to be told when their character is dead. As long as it's someone else taking the bullet, they honestly could not give a flying frig.
We weren't talking about softcloning when discussing the tech thing. Earlier in the thread, several people mentioned that softcloning is widely accepted due to PF references and CCP actors acknowledging it.
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Well that will teach me not to post before reading the entire thread.
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So, when you connect to an RP venue, it is an event that has been publicised, and a group of people are present, and someone starts doing something, then unless you're in on it, then you just have to stand and stare, because any deviation from the script, by anyone, screws everything up?
It's not exactly making large events attractive or welcoming, is it ?
If by something you mean violent attack, then yes that is pretty much how I would describe it. And contrary to the large event not being attractive, it is attempting violent arcs during them that is unwelcoming.
Only CCP gets to define technologies, because they're universal. Players can do whatever, culturally, because of 'it's a big cluster', and a little corner of space could have some cultural difference.
It would be nice if people would stop trying to derail the thread, with descriptions of whatever made-up tech they want other players to accept. That's not the subject here. Make up a new thread if you want.
Agreed. Softcloning is accepted precisely due to the references in PF and CCP actors, not because it somehow "makes sense" to the players. The latter fact is nice but irrelevant.
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(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a231/bertcom1/Roleplay.png)
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Love it.
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Love it.
thanks. I think it illustrates a few things. You have 1 dude, wanting to meet new people, 7 dudes with their pre-arranged things that aren't flexible enough to allow interactions, and the hostess. Dude only manages to meet and interact with the hostess.
I've been to several events where this sort of thing appears to happen. And to several RP venues, ones listed in the sticky up top for example, where the only people you'll see doing things, are running through what appears to be a prearranged script. Anyone else gets to be an audience, not a participant to any RP happening.
With backup clones, I don't see why, whenever someone makes an RP venue, why there always seems to be a big song and dance about "what security measures are there?", other than to enforce some kind of 'community approved' design for all RP venues. Or to ask if there'll be active moderators present most of the time, or something.
It's like, everywhere is safe, secure, predictable. There's never anything unexpected, anything dangerous, or anything unscripted. Only surprises are when you're not aware of the script, which tells you that you're not one of the 'right people', when the surprise event is something that would be relevant to your interests. E.g. you're an amarr person, at some event, a bunch of amarr loyalists are also present, a group of minmatar appear, a sword fight ensues. You have no sword, because you're not in the loop, and none of the persons stabbed says "take my sword, avenge me!" or similar. Basically, you've just been shown, in front of everyone, that you're not the 'right sort', in the eyes of the 'community'.
It all gets a bit weird.
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Seems no different from any other RP community. Clones have nothing to do with it. New person goes to an event. Sees other people RPing. Chooses to wait for RP to come to him, leaves disappointed because he didn't interact with anyone.
Getting 'in' to an RP community is not difficult. It just takes some initiative. In your sword example, the newbie shouldn't be awiting for someone to say 'take my sword, avenge me!'. He should reach down, pick up the sword, and say, 'I will avenge you!'.
It is not the duty of established players to hold the hands of new players.
As far as scripting goes... that's really over-exaggerating it. Some OOC discussions on the side to make sure things run smoothly when there is conflict is not scripting. While actual scripted stuff does happen, it's not 'every RP encounter between established characters' as you seem to be implying.
And if someone getting involved in some scripted thing -does- mess things up? Then good. Mess it up. If people didn't want it to get potentially messed up, they should have avoided doing it in a public setting to begin with.
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It is not the duty of established players to hold the hands of new players.
You know, it isn't, and it took me a while to accept that this is probably for the best; for most combinations of newbies and (hypothetical) hand-holders, the best outcome would be to recoil from the outstretched hand in horror, anyway.
Roleplayers: remarkably shit at putting themselves in other people's place.
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I'm with Samira on this, I think its a gross exaggeration of what happens at most events. I know the groundbreaking festival event we ran back in December was completely unscripted on our part, and I'm fairly certain on other people's parts as well. (Ironically I'd meant to write a speech for Saede and preplan a bunch of stuff but then didn't have time because I'd mistimed thanksgiving and had to end up doing everything off the cuff).
I think that most events tend to be largely freeform, save for a few things the host might work out with some people loosely in advance. To give an example from talking to Katrina last night, no one but her and the shooter knew she was going to be assassinated, it was totally out of nowhere for everyone else, and they were left scrambling trying to figure out what to do. What they did was up to them, it was completely unscripted. Really the only things you need to cover out of character are things that really harm your character. If I pull out a gun, and threaten to shoot your character, that's not godmodding, it isn't godmodding until I /emote shoot your character in the head. The phrase 'the ability to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose' comes to mind. But swing away. Just get OOC permission before you actually land a punch. That's pretty much the only scripting that needs to happen, and that's really not all that much considering.
In a lot of cases (using Katrina's assassination arc again as an example) its best to not script things too much. If Katrina had told the people she was with OOCly that the assassination was going to happen, a large portion of the impact of the event would have been lost. Too much scripting can be just as detrimental to RP as no scripting. I RPed with some people a few years back who wanted to spell out everything ahead of time, and it just wasn't fun. At that point, why roleplay it out at all? Why not just write it out as a story? Roleplay is supposed to be largely freeform, organic, and improvised. When you put it completely on rails, the fun goes out of it. I don't think putting it on rails completely happens very often, so I tend to agree with Samira that the problem discussed is rather exaggerated. I certainly take specific effort to talk to new RPers, and I know quite a few others do as well. There's plenty of room for off the cuff roleplay, as long as it doesn't harm another character. Its only when harm comes into play that OOC discussions need to occur.
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Seems no different from any other RP community. Clones have nothing to do with it. New person goes to an event. Sees other people RPing. Chooses to wait for RP to come to him, leaves disappointed because he didn't interact with anyone.
And if someone getting involved in some scripted thing -does- mess things up? Then good. Mess it up. If people didn't want it to get potentially messed up, they should have avoided doing it in a public setting to begin with.
If everyone gives the impression they're completely wrapped up in things, and are not open to interaction (sometimes only because giant emotes make the chat scroll very quickly, and people miss things), then getting involved can be problematic.
And there's been big arguments, on this forum, about people 'interrupting' or 'ruining' RP taking place in public settings.
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And there's been big arguments, on this forum, about people 'interrupting' or 'ruining' RP taking place in public settings.
And the consensus (at least in this thread) seems to be that the people making these complaints can go right off and fuck themselves. If you're going to do something in public you 'risk' (more like invite) other people getting involved. Either roll with it or do your super-sensitive-has-to-go-exactly-as-planned RP arc privately away from public places.
I agree with Samira - your illustration is inaccurate in that it fails to recognize that the onus is often not on other people to go out of their way involve the new guy, but on the new person to take some initiative of his or her own and get involved. Sometimes people will go out of their way to introduce themselves to the new person, but the old saying "good things come to those who wait" simply does not apply with RP.
Good RP generally does not come to those who sit on their ass and wait for it to drop into their lap. It comes to those who go out of their way to create it.
There are plenty of people who are part of the newest 'generation' of RPers in EVE who are doing well for themselves, and it's not because they sat around and waited for people to poke them. It's because they went out of their way to dive in headfirst and got responses as a result.
One example: Steff, if he'll forgive being (ab)used this way - he dropped into the Summit shortly after creating his character and just started getting involved and interacting with others. He asked questions in OOC when he had them. He went to Silver's party thing and got to meet people there face to face because he went out of his way to have Steff talk to people, which also resulted in other people (myself included) going over to interact with him of our own volition. And that then resulted in all sorts of friendships and subsequent opportunities for further interaction and RP.
I'm also mostly in agreement with Samira and Shiori on the hand-holding thing, though I believe hand-holding is acceptable and should be in some ways expected to a point: I don't have a problem helping someone learn how to fit their ship, or showing them where to find PF they're interested in.
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Seems no different from any other RP community. Clones have nothing to do with it. New person goes to an event. Sees other people RPing. Chooses to wait for RP to come to him, leaves disappointed because he didn't interact with anyone.
And if someone getting involved in some scripted thing -does- mess things up? Then good. Mess it up. If people didn't want it to get potentially messed up, they should have avoided doing it in a public setting to begin with.
If everyone gives the impression they're completely wrapped up in things, and are not open to interaction (sometimes only because giant emotes make the chat scroll very quickly, and people miss things), then getting involved can be problematic.
This is a fact of life for parties in general, IC or IRL.
This is speaking as someone who is A) shy IRL, B ) shy IC, and C) still fairly new to the EVE RP community myself. Just like RL, if you aren't good at social situations but still want to go to them then you need to work at it. For me, that's starting small. In new RP communities, I first ask myself, 'what do I want to do'. Then, 'who else is doing that?'. Then making contact with those people somehow--either joining their organization, coming up with some IC goal that necessitates pursuing them, or even just OOC asking to arrange something. Once you have those initial contacts, you can work towards expanding your network.
Frankly, I find parties to be an end result of social networking rather than a starting point. I can see how some people can get their start there if they're socially aggressive and charismatic, but for me I prefer to avoid them until I have someone to go there with.
Also, "impressions" of not being open to interaction are irrelevant. If someone is in a public setting, then they're available to the public. If they want to be doing private interaction then they'd be in a private setting. Most people are willing to interact with people if they get approached. What they aren't likely to do is approach a random stranger whom they have no reason to interact with.
Either way, it isn't the fault of the established players when a newbie doesn't get any RP if that newbie is doing nothing to try and create RP. It is the fault of established players when they are deliberately ignoring a character that is trying to interact with them, though this is not as common as some people claim it is.
I wanted to get into EVE RP almost a decade ago, and this is actually my 5th account. I failed in all previous attempts because I made the mistake of lurking in channels and being too shy to involve myself. I had no one to blame but myself. I've managed to integrate this time because I told myself no more fucking around and just dove right in.
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The irony about all this discussion regarding "what do we do in these situations" or "how do we handle this public setting" is that there is a remarkable amount of agreement in this thread. This is a hint that the people who cause issues are usually fairly specific people, which is further a hint that they are typically doing it on purpose.
As far as hand-holding goes, you can usually tell instantly whether someone is just asking for advice OOCly and is shy. There is a big difference between someone OOCly looking for pointers and someone trying to get themselves fracking adopted. The former, I'll help them with PF and tips all day long. The latter can fall into a blender.
ICly, I agree with Morwen. People waiting for others to come to them are not playing the right game. The only way that ever works is if someone decides your character is worth stalking, and that's a whole different set of problems.
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Clone Backups/Death and 'not knowing' IC about events prior to clone death:
No big deal, your IC RP-Fu should all be strong enough to 'forget' IC things that need forgettin'.
Partehs:
Good events often tend to have a healthy mix of 'older' Rpers and be relatively inviting to 'new' RPers.
My personal preference is for 'mostly' unscripted outside of a plotted 'spine' of events.
IE things are to happen 90% unscripted except for a few scheduled speeches, performances, or the occasional spice of life dramatizing. Let people do their own thing how they like in an environment you set up.
I'm strongly against any ic godmodding for uninvolved RPers. Things like a bomb going off or things that 'effect' people present outside of their control.
I'm ok with scripted/semi scripted 'things' happening to people in the know that might be set up ahead of time, but not with sudden godmodding of participants.
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The solution is to not try to freaking assassinate people at events.
This pretty much. I mean I can understand a display of fisticuffs but assassinating? Lawls.
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The irony about all this discussion regarding "what do we do in these situations" or "how do we handle this public setting" is that there is a remarkable amount of agreement in this thread. This is a hint that the people who cause issues are usually fairly specific people, which is further a hint that they are typically doing it on purpose.
This.
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I don't think there is a solution.
I don't see one either, that's why I started the thread to begin with. See if there was something I was missing.
So, while clone backups are possible, and useful in cases of genuine accidents, what then is their usefulness in RP? other than situations for showing off? E.g. "I explored an uncharted world" and other such grandstanding? Is there a use for them in RP ?
Or is it just one of those things that has no direct usefulness in RP, because using it just gets messy and overcomplicated ?
That's a good question no ? What are they for ? To reassure players that even if their character dies, that they have an insurance policy and they can get it back ? Not really when you think about it. As with any RP, every player is totally free to accept something or ignore it, as said above countless times. So, if someone kills your character, you can perfectly say that you don't agree and tell people your character didn't die.
So, what are really soft clones for ? They are mostly here to provide additional RP opportunities revolving around film noir / thriller atmospheres. I have heard about so many assassinations of capsuleers now, sudden and brutal deaths... That it feels right to think that it's indeed for those precise reasons soft clones are so strongly advocated by many players.
Now then, that's why I never really felt the need to use soft cloning in my RP. It is true that I do not bring my character in dangerous situations all the time (I'm playing Eve and capsuleer in space, not Shadowrun), but even if I did, I could perfectly make sure that my character doesn't die, after all, it's my character and nobody is the GM. But if I do that all the time even when my character obviously has to die, people will start saying that i'm godmodding. So soft clones are the perfect tool to avoid that.
I guess that's what you have to deal with when you want to thread a bit outside of the game setting and go baselining in dangerous situations out of the capsule. The lore setting was never truly designed for this, but it's still perfectly possible. I personally have nothing against soft clones as even CCP has hinted at them so many time that it's not only a player creation anymore anyway. But I don't personally feel the need to use them. Maybe someday I will.
Now to your example, it relates basically to a more general set of cases where it's eventually something happening ICly and a player suddenly notices that he is absolutely not fine with it. It can unfortunately happen. Like, omg, my character died, I didn't want that, but it's only logical that he dies because I screwed up as a player. If that's the case in your example, than it should be best for player B to be understanding and try to sort it out. Especially if it's the first time... Not necessary to be a dick on that.
If player A knew he put his character at risk, well, maybe he should learn the almighty rule of Eve (and RP in general for that matter...) : deal with the consequences. Usually I go by those rules. If player A is not happy that player B (and maybe others as well) start to tell a fake version of it ICly, then deal with it and call them out for that. It can actually be interesting, but I also understand that it can make a player not happy in certain cases. Especially when it starts to thread sometimes into thrash/gore/sexual/offensive content. There are limits.
So, eventually, it's a lot a matter of case by case and it's essentially hard to draw concrete, unmovable rules around that.
Generally in your case example, when drama occurs it's that people have not even tried to sort things out between themselves, or tried but failed because they want to win at RP. Not saying that it's always the case, but it's often the case in my experience. Especially on Eve.
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How would you make your character (A) react when another character (B) brings up ICly something on which you as a player (p-A) is in fundamental disagree with the other player behind (p-B) ?
Like the most stupid example but likely to happen :
Character B : "What do you think of soft clones ?"
Character A : "Soft clones do not exist"
Character B : "Of course they exist, I have several of them, as well as saves in an implant"
Character A : "Liar"
=> OOC drama.
Ok there, fine, players A and B start to ignore each other, as well as their characters.
I think the simplest solution is to not bring it up. This is of course a very 'meh' solution, but it works well in a lot of cases. To give a bit of an example, Saede and Ava have a lot of very fundamental differences in perspective surrounding religion, philosophy and Minmatar society. Saede's solution to avoiding conflict with Ava is to not bring it up, thus starting arguments. Anther example, my father is a republican, I'm a (dirty) liberal, and we don't remotely see eye to eye on it, but we still manage to peacefully interact as long as we don't discuss politics. So if you have a fundemental disagreement with a player on the nature of canon, you can just avoid talking about it and starting unneeded fights. To solve you example then, the best solution would have been for player B to not bring it up in the first place when they knew it had to potential to create conflict. This isn't an amazing solution I'll admit. The better solution would be for the players to come to some sort of consensus, but when that's not possible, just choosing not to force the issue isn't a terrible way to go about it.
The law of solipsism, as I said above. I do not find it especially satisfactory, but we have to deal with it yes.
Let's take another example. Someone says his character B has a special ability that you disagree with OOCly.
Character A and B take part in an event. Player B starts to use his ability even knowing you disagree with it, after all, he is free to have his fun too, which is legitimate.
How are you supposed to explain that to yourself, and your character ? How to react ICly after something like this happens ?
I'm not sure what you might be referring to here, but lets go with a relatively extreme example of someone deciding they're a wizard and starting to sling magic around everywhere. The solution to this is really just, ignore it, don't let it effect your character. In most cases people won't force something on your character, and if they do you can call them out for the more relevant OOC issue of them godmodding your character, then of the issue of whatever it is they're doing. If they're not actually effecting your character, then its pretty easy to just let them have their weird fun and just let it go. Again, its not an amazing solution, but there are solutions.
I can just be "I will kill myself and soft clone !", and then "No you don't". Then you see the character dying in front of you, and since you don't agree with soft clones, seeing him coming back again a few minutes later literally breaks the rationality of your world.
It's not necessarily about godmodding special powers on your character, it can just be using a player creation that directly conflicts with the rationality of your own universe. It's extremely irritating when it happens. Especially because it's a player made thing without any place in the Canon.
The main issue is that the more a player creation start to invent new, universal things, or take them as facts in a setting where it's not only between character A and B, but a whole world, then that player starts to stomp on the RP of another player.
I will not lie and say that these days I do not feel especially good when I see all those sciencey new technologies burgeoning like flowers everywhere, arising from the needs of players to find new stuff and create their own little special thing.
And what if something like that then starts to bleed over something like SeyCon ? If a player comes up happily and starts to explain his own new technology ? Yeah, you can ignore it, but some will not and you will be left torn between people happily playing with it and some not so much. And eventually, you just start to feel more and more oppressed. You start to feel that your own little meddling with PF, trying to be respectful of the Canon and not creating wild fantasies, but just going with minor details or just using your own version of an existing device, is rather vain and bland. Then you ask yourself "Why bother ?"
It generates drama, or just divide people, and I find it unhealthy on the long run. Especially as it creates a race for "the new awesome idea that is better than the last tech created by another player !" "but wait, I can do better !" and so on and so on.
What is so limitating in the PF to begin with ? We have plenty of tools to play with. Eve PF is incredibly dense for a MMO.
But let's take it in another way : it is generally assumed that the more you create something to be universal, or well spread, the more the probability to be called godmodder increases. Saying that you invented the apocalypse battleship, is an extreme of that. The other extreme, the one generally assumed to be positive, is basic world building with very regional player made creations. Saying that your own little native town on planet X is like this or that, and that it's like that because *insert good explanation showing that you did your homework to insert your little town into the Matari world the planet is located" all the better.
Why not keeping that rule for technology too ? Why trying at all costs to invent new tech, rather than just taking what we have in PF and create your own flavour of it ? Drones exist. Gallente are libertarian fashionista. Then they must use Rouge Drones ! And Whore drones ! Or whatever floats your boat.
Technology now. Clones are created with biomass. Biomass is rather central in Eve setting. If we can create blank corpses, what prevents people in some twisted corners of space to do the same, implant them with basic electronic implants or control, and turn them into flesh puppets able to do basic or elaborated moves through a computer ?
I mean, why trying to insert stuff from other universes when we already have stuff from... New Eden ?
A well know and discussed case now.
Player A blows up player's B ship in space. There is nothing to loot, but player A claims that he abducted player B crew as part of his RP.
Player B disagrees OOCly and claims ICly that never happened.
This is a pretty clear case of outright godmodding and should rightly be called out as such.
Well obviously it is not shared by everybody. Silas does it, Sansha loyalists also deal in that sort of things. I am not saying that they are doing it wrong or right. I am just saying that they have a point too. if that is godmodding... Well, there was other discussions about that already, and it is not what i'm interested in.
What i'm interested in is the possibility that people can disagree over it OOCly. So yes, they will ignore each other. Until it eventually bleeds over in the universe around and start to affect other people that you will meet too. Eventually if you have to cut yourself from everyone that got touched by it because you try to ignore it, you will soon get completely blind to everything happening around. It would be like adding 75% of a channel to ignore list and then trying to sort out what is being said on said channel.
Of course though, I think that I took a bad example with Sansha or Blooders abducting crews as I think it would be a shame not to play that since it's what happens in PF after all. I would be rather tempted to say that it's people not rolling with it that are godmodding their way out of the setting... It's a complicated issue.
Player A doesn't care and sells those slaves to someone else, player C, who starts to do all sort of stuff with them.
This escalates further with not only godmodding but another player (C) being party to the godmodding. If I were player A in this case, I would contact player C and see if something couldn't be worked out with them. Godmodding like this is only really legitimate if other players identify it as legitimate. If player C doesn't go along with it, the buck stops there. This is a case where the community shouldn't be supporting/endorsing godmodding in that manor, its poor form.
But is it still godmodding when it's literally part of the setting ? Probably since you are dealing with someone else characters. But as I said above, the other player just feels like trying to godmod out of it as well.
It's the kind of situation that only the two players can sort out between themselves, but if it does not happen, then it creates divides. Even if you can still get out of it with the law of solipsism, OOC scars remain.
Eventually player A can still claim it's fake, that it's other people and not his crew and it will be up to everyone ICly to believe him or not. But it will still make a lot of OOC drama behind. That's basic godmodding, even out of good intentions.
At best it will lead to disagreeable solipsism, at worst both versions of what happened are conflicting. Most of the time it will just be 2 versions of what happened conflicting but as they are exposed ICly, everyone can ICly deny them, so it's fine. But what isn't is the OOC behind.
It is godmodding, I agree. But its not caused by having disagreements about the canon, its outright infringing on another player's existence without their consent, and that's not okay. If someone came to me and said they wanted to capture my crew after they'd blown up my ship, I'd probably go along with it. But if they just went ahead and did it without asking, I'd consider that godmodding and (I think rightly) call them out on it. To give another example. If someone wanted to turn their character into a suicide bomber and blow my character up with it, if they talked about it with me beforehand, I would probably agree to it and help them sort something cool out (because yeah! roleplay conflicts), but if they just ran up to my character somewhere random, and tried that, I'd remove my character from the channel, and again, call them out on it OOCly. That's really in my mind the best way to deal with that sort of godmodding, don't legitimize it by responding to it or giving it the time of day ICly. Its an OOC issue and should be treated as such.
Then yes, of course, it would be better if abducters always asked before doing it. Question of good form, perhaps.
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I disagree. As long as there's no conflict with the existing canon, I see no reason expanding the universe. I mean, my corporation is out in wormhole space forming our own space civilisation right now. That's pretty original. Should we be denied and told we can't start our own faction because 'there is no originality from players and this is a premade world?' I don't think so at all. There's tons of originality and room for player made stuff in the universe. Napaani, Happy Chips, Starsi, there's all sorts of player made things in the universe, and I think saying 'no, you can't make stuff up' is unnecessarily restrictive to everyone. Where would we be if we could only roleplay within the bounds of existing canon? How many times would we have walked the same tired roads in 10 years of RP? After the 300th slaver vs. nonslaver argument in the summit, it starts to get stale and people start looking for something new. This is supposed to be a living breathing universe, and it should be allowed to do so.
Wormholes, colonies, etc., all exist within the Eve universe very explicitly and logically. There's a difference between utilizing material in interesting ways and inventing off the wall unicorn stuff. And things like Napaani were again, developed based on the stuff we were given within the Eve universe. Granted, that one had more invention in it than normal - but it was also done very well, was an uncontroversial idea, and was widely accepted by a community that wanted to use it.
Player extrapolation of already existing concepts or material is entirely different than attempting to completely invent something - especially something in the area of cloning, implants, and other controversial topics within the community that have major implications for other players if the inventor attempts to use or mention them publicly.
People can go ahead and invent what they want, but they certainly can't expect the community to acknowledge their invention in any meaningful way.
I completely agree, though Napaani is far from being universally reckoned. The simple fact that it is often presented as a Caldari universal language makes it close to godmodding, if not outright godmodding. Which made me rather prefer a few voices telling that it's just an obscure aristocratic/meritocratic/elitist/business/whatever floats your boat Caldari language originated from X.
Otherwise though, I respect a lot the people that put literally their souls in creating the language. Same with Amarrad, and other languages.
For something like Napaani, it has no effect on players who don't like it. They simply don't use it. You can't ignore tech in such a way, especially when it comes to things like cloning. Everyone uses clones, thus your invention is now declaring how their character's technology works. That is godmoding.
Not totally true. You sure can just not use it, but you can hardly less hear it. You have to deal with it on a constant basis. So, you start eventually to invent your own explanations on why and why to preserve your own rationale and not ending up crazy/schizophrenic eventually. And then at some occasion you have to bring "but napaani is an obscure language coming from blablabl" and then everyone thinks you stupid/crazy ICly, and a moronic ass OOCly because you can't comply to the tyranny of the majority.
Well, the majority can be damned. I can surely comply to the tyranny of the PF and the Canon, but I rather prefer comply to that than to the will of a democracy of player made creations. Especially when we start to thread into echo-chambers and the likes. Eek.
It's already difficult to make everyone agree on PF itself and its interpretations, and yet, it's the damn Canon. Now if we have to do the same for player made universal stuff... The nightmare /o\
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I think the distinction I'd draw to in terms of invention technologies is when someone 'invents something that already exists' like, when someone makes some technology and says its been around for 50 years and everyone has one in their home and its like having a microwave or somesuch. That's getting overdone, and Napaani makes some people uncomfortable for exactly that reason. However, I don't see the problem with your character inventing something through roleplay, and attempting to market it IC.
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I think the distinction I'd draw to in terms of invention technologies is when someone 'invents something that already exists' like, when someone makes some technology and says its been around for 50 years and everyone has one in their home and its like having a microwave or somesuch. That's getting overdone, and Napaani makes some people uncomfortable for exactly that reason. However, I don't see the problem with your character inventing something through roleplay, and attempting to market it IC.
Again, with Napaani it is very easy to ignore if someone doesn't like it. You literally just don't mention it or use it.
With technology, the implications are too immediate and important to ignore. With technology that "haz existeds for longs timez": no it hasn't, it would have been put in the universe.
For "look what I made, now you have to deal with my tech to RP with me" well no, your character doesn't have the power over the Eve universe to create significant new tech that has widespread implications for all capsuleers and storylines. That is right up there with "You aren't the CEO of KK."
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Technology now. Clones are created with biomass. Biomass is rather central in Eve setting. If we can create blank corpses, what prevents people in some twisted corners of space to do the same, implant them with basic electronic implants or control, and turn them into flesh puppets able to do basic or elaborated moves through a computer ?
I mean, why trying to insert stuff from other universes when we already have stuff from... New Eden ?
It may be possible. There are such items as this: http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=22210
There's a lot of curious bits of PF, in obscure places.
And yes, inserting things from other settings, just makes everything bland and confusing. Especially when the setting of EVE may have laws of physics that are fundamentally incompatible.
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There might be a good difference between NASA inventing FTL travel and Google patenting a new kind of inventive smartphone.
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For "look what I made, now you have to deal with my tech to RP with me" well no, your character doesn't have the power over the Eve universe to create significant new tech that has widespread implications for all capsuleers and storylines. That is right up there with "You aren't the CEO of KK."
Why not? If its not something covered by game mechanics, then it doesn't make any difference in the way the game is played if it exists or not. No one has to use your technology, accepts it, or make use of it. You don't have to deny the existence of it, your character can just deny its value. You could send some new technology to market, advertise it on the IGS, and have it totally flop and no one have any interest in it. Or it could go somewhere, be something people really like and start using in their roleplay, because it adds something to the roleplay and adds possibilities that weren't there before. If my character spends months RPing with people and develops some sort of tech, and tries to sell it on the IGS, it would come off as very immersion breaking to me if people came out and said 'that doesn't exist, you can't make that'.
And yeah, there's definitely a difference of scale behind claiming to have invented a machine that creates wormholes, and creating a holographic neocom interface that works in some clever new way, or even inventing some implant that does something unique.
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For "look what I made, now you have to deal with my tech to RP with me" well no, your character doesn't have the power over the Eve universe to create significant new tech that has widespread implications for all capsuleers and storylines. That is right up there with "You aren't the CEO of KK."
Why not? If its not something covered by game mechanics, then it doesn't make any difference in the way the game is played if it exists or not. No one has to use your technology, accepts it, or make use of it. You don't have to deny the existence of it, your character can just deny its value. You could send some new technology to market, advertise it on the IGS, and have it totally flop and no one have any interest in it. Or it could go somewhere, be something people really like and start using in their roleplay, because it adds something to the roleplay and adds possibilities that weren't there before. If my character spends months RPing with people and develops some sort of tech, and tries to sell it on the IGS, it would come off as very immersion breaking to me if people came out and said 'that doesn't exist, you can't make that'.
And yeah, there's definitely a difference of scale behind claiming to have invented a machine that creates wormholes, and creating a holographic neocom interface that works in some clever new way, or even inventing some implant that does something unique.
The perspective you are missing is from the other side: new tech is immersion-breaking for them. Unless it is something so inconsequential to be pure fluff (cleaning drones that look like puppies and sing children's songs or something - this sort of topic is very case-by-case), new tech requires a response ICly from others because you have altered the universe in which their character resides.
Environmental godmoding is still godmoding.
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Inventing an implant that does something unique, says that you are at least as knowledgeable about cybernetics, (and more specifically, implants that are capsule-compatible), as any of the likes of Inherent Implants, Poteque Pharmaceuticals, Genolution, or any of the other cybernetics manufacturers, who have scientists who have spent decades designing and researching implants. Those corporations aren't small ones. They're megacorporations. Employees in the millions, if not billions.
it's a pretty bold claim.
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A well know and discussed case now.
Player A blows up player's B ship in space. There is nothing to loot, but player A claims that he abducted player B crew as part of his RP.
Player B disagrees OOCly and claims ICly that never happened.
This is a pretty clear case of outright godmodding and should rightly be called out as such.
Well obviously it is not shared by everybody. Silas does it, Sansha loyalists also deal in that sort of things. I am not saying that they are doing it wrong or right. I am just saying that they have a point too. if that is godmodding... Well, there was other discussions about that already, and it is not what i'm interested in.
What i'm interested in is the possibility that people can disagree over it OOCly. So yes, they will ignore each other. Until it eventually bleeds over in the universe around and start to affect other people that you will meet too. Eventually if you have to cut yourself from everyone that got touched by it because you try to ignore it, you will soon get completely blind to everything happening around. It would be like adding 75% of a channel to ignore list and then trying to sort out what is being said on said channel.
Of course though, I think that I took a bad example with Sansha or Blooders abducting crews as I think it would be a shame not to play that since it's what happens in PF after all. I would be rather tempted to say that it's people not rolling with it that are godmodding their way out of the setting... It's a complicated issue.
Eventually player A can still claim it's fake, that it's other people and not his crew and it will be up to everyone ICly to believe him or not. But it will still make a lot of OOC drama behind. That's basic godmodding, even out of good intentions.
At best it will lead to disagreeable solipsism, at worst both versions of what happened are conflicting. Most of the time it will just be 2 versions of what happened conflicting but as they are exposed ICly, everyone can ICly deny them, so it's fine. But what isn't is the OOC behind.
It is godmodding, I agree. But its not caused by having disagreements about the canon, its outright infringing on another player's existence without their consent, and that's not okay. If someone came to me and said they wanted to capture my crew after they'd blown up my ship, I'd probably go along with it. But if they just went ahead and did it without asking, I'd consider that godmodding and (I think rightly) call them out on it. To give another example. If someone wanted to turn their character into a suicide bomber and blow my character up with it, if they talked about it with me beforehand, I would probably agree to it and help them sort something cool out (because yeah! roleplay conflicts), but if they just ran up to my character somewhere random, and tried that, I'd remove my character from the channel, and again, call them out on it OOCly. That's really in my mind the best way to deal with that sort of godmodding, don't legitimize it by responding to it or giving it the time of day ICly. Its an OOC issue and should be treated as such.
Then yes, of course, it would be better if abducters always asked before doing it. Question of good form, perhaps.
Bolded important bit.
The crew thing is very simple to me. Whoever gets the loot, gets the crew. This also means that if you don't go back to loot your own wreck, you lose your crew. If you want to be someone that rescues his crew, then you should be going out and actually rescuing your crew.
In-game actions have priority in a full-time RP game like EVE.
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The crew thing is very simple to me. Whoever gets the loot, gets the crew. This also means that if you don't go back to loot your own wreck, you lose your crew. If you want to be someone that rescues his crew, then you should be going out and actually rescuing your crew.
In-game actions have priority in a full-time RP game like EVE.
This doesn't account for crew death or escape pods.
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The crew thing is very simple to me. Whoever gets the loot, gets the crew. This also means that if you don't go back to loot your own wreck, you lose your crew. If you want to be someone that rescues his crew, then you should be going out and actually rescuing your crew.
In-game actions have priority in a full-time RP game like EVE.
This doesn't account for crew death or escape pods.
I can't imagine there would be many surviving crew inside the torn and emptied wreck. It just got finished going through a friggin' thermonuclear explosion. Maybe a few isolated survivors, no more than 1% though. A vast majority of survivors would be in those escape pods as you mentioned.
So, when people talk about rescuing or capturing crew, I have always assumed they meant those crew in escape pods. Of course, that doesn't account for some tidbit I thought I saw in PF about how escape pods pretty much random-warp to a safe spot and wait for rescue with a beacon that capsuleers simply cannot see.
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The crew thing is very simple to me. Whoever gets the loot, gets the crew. This also means that if you don't go back to loot your own wreck, you lose your crew. If you want to be someone that rescues his crew, then you should be going out and actually rescuing your crew.
In-game actions have priority in a full-time RP game like EVE.
This doesn't account for crew death or escape pods.
I can't imagine there would be many surviving crew inside the torn and emptied wreck. It just got finished going through a friggin' thermonuclear explosion. Maybe a few isolated survivors, no more than 1% though. A vast majority of survivors would be in those escape pods as you mentioned.
So, when people talk about rescuing or capturing crew, I have always assumed they meant those crew in escape pods. Of course, that doesn't account for some tidbit I thought I saw in PF about how escape pods pretty much random-warp to a safe spot and wait for rescue with a beacon that capsuleers simply cannot see.
Right, which is why so many people started boarding threads a while back - to try to get crews without having to claim they somehow snatched up escape pods so amazingly fast.
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Boarding threads? Was this here or on the IGS or what?
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Escape pods which have no representation or appearance in-game, next to modules and passengers that do (and New Eden crew guidelines specifically say that modules are crewed ship components, as adding them increases the crew complement of a ship).
In-game actions take priority, and using wrecks as a representation for crew works a lot better than invisible, uninteractable escape pods. You can loot wrecks to abduct or rescue survivors. You can abandon wrecks to abandon survivors. You can shoot wrecks to give no quarter. You can't do any of that with "escape pods", which therefore results in the very unnecessary OOC arguments and consent BS that is described in this thread.
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Escape pods which have no representation or appearance in-game, next to modules and passengers that do (and New Eden crew guidelines specifically say that modules are crewed ship components, as adding them increases the crew complement of a ship).
In-game actions take priority, and using wrecks as a representation for crew works a lot better than invisible, uninteractable escape pods. You can loot wrecks to abduct or rescue survivors. You can abandon wrecks to abandon survivors. You can shoot wrecks to give no quarter. You can't do any of that with "escape pods", which therefore results in the very unnecessary OOC arguments and consent BS that is described in this thread.
On the contrary, they aren't showing up in game because it was never intended for us to capture crews. As can be shown by all the OOC hissy fits that start when you claim to take someone's crew, it is the taking of them that causes the OOC problems - not the other way around. If you want someone's crew, coordinate it with them.
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Boarding threads? Was this here or on the IGS or what?
There was this one, and some other discussion in-game and elsewhere: http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5598.0
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Nicking crew is an interplayer thing that should be handled OOCly, and hell. Happiily. Why should your char live happily ever after? EVE is grimdark. And ships have people. According to the 10th anniverary video 18 BILLION CREW OF CAPSULEER SHIPS DIED IN TEN YEARS. And heck. Them's just our ships. Even if we take the grinding of NPC missions as "symbolic" and "less ACTUAL killing happens as the universe isn't full of inifnite T1 frigates" - THOSE numbers are probably STILL somewhere around googol plex.
When I sold a fitted Apoc to someone who then jumped to TSF that day, I LOVED IT.. OOCly. In a sense the sale was half OOC anyway, but they were an RPer and so was I. It happened in game so it happened.
IC ofc Arista was horrified. OOC I created a full battleship crew complement with first initials and last names from the generic char gen lastname list from EVE, which I shared ICly with other Amarrians who Ari told about it, which added to scenes in their RP. TSF knew about it - they taunted her about it. RP! World depth!
When you play house, generally more than one person lives there, or you're just playing with yourself. Every pun intended.
Ohnoes, a bad thing happened. How in the world is my mass murdering informorph monster going to handle this horrific blow to her gentle psyche that can fly for years without mindlock. I will never figure it out. ;)
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Ohnoes, a bad thing happened. How in the world is my mass murdering informorph monster going to handle this horrific blow to her gentle psyche that can fly for years without mindlock. I will never figure it out. ;)
Well, there could always be the option to edit out that bad memory and make the PAIN GO AWAY. :lol:
http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/the-precious-tableau/ (http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/the-precious-tableau/)
-Vieve, who's so not otherwise going to wade into a thread about infomorph manipulation, 'cause it's more fun to sit in the shadows and eat popcorn.
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I had a couple of cases of dying outside of the pod.
One time, my character died and forgot completely what happened, and I was even playing her, trying to find out. She still can't comprehend why happened what happened.
Second time, my character died, but another player's character brought my body inside my pod, attached it and 'brainscanned' me, so when I woke up, I remembered all details, but it caused some defects, that were fun to play.
:spoiler: Oh, after that case my character has installed hardware protection on her implants to prevent unsanctioned scanning :P
With rare exceptions, I allow people to do with my character to do whatever they like, so if they want to kill me, good. I can forget it. As for remembering, there are cameras and things. Thus, my character can look at the recording and realize, what happened. This was actually used for the first case of my death, that I described. But the said recording left more questions for my character than answers ;)
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Second time, my character died, but another player's character brought my body inside my pod, attached it and 'brainscanned' me, so when I woke up, I remembered all details, but it caused some defects, that were fun to play.
It's not a huge problem, but I should point out that brain scanning doesn't work that way. It has to happen while you are still alive and your brain is still active, otherwise there is no memory or personality to copy. This is the entire reason the scanner works the way it does. It scans you during the moment of death, at the last possible millisecond before you are actually dead. Doing so afterwards is completely useless.
That doesn't even take into account the time between when they found her body and when they brought it to the pod. Even assuming it was a few minutes - not more like an hour or two where decomposition sets in - you're dealing with physical destruction of the brain after death. Brain cells die once deprived of oxygenated blood, and they do so within seconds. You'd have to ask a biologist how this would affect the physical structure of brain cells, but I would be willing to wager they aren't entirely useful for a "physical scan" after that point in time.
Based on the concepts of biology and the fiction of how the capsule scanner works, I have to say that while it's a clever attempt at working around the soft cloning issue - it's not a valid method. Sorry. :(
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Second time, my character died, but another player's character brought my body inside my pod, attached it and 'brainscanned' me, so when I woke up, I remembered all details, but it caused some defects, that were fun to play.
It's not a huge problem, but I should point out that brain scanning doesn't work that way. It has to happen while you are still alive and your brain is still active, otherwise there is no memory or personality to copy. This is the entire reason the scanner works the way it does. It scans you during the moment of death, at the last possible millisecond before you are actually dead. Doing so afterwards is completely useless.
That doesn't even take into account the time between when they found her body and when they brought it to the pod. Even assuming it was a few minutes - not more like an hour or two where decomposition sets in - you're dealing with physical destruction of the brain after death. Brain cells die once deprived of oxygenated blood, and they do so within seconds. You'd have to ask a biologist how this would affect the physical structure of brain cells, but I would be willing to wager they aren't entirely useful for a "physical scan" after that point in time.
Based on the concepts of biology and the fiction of how the capsule scanner works, I have to say that while it's a clever attempt at working around the soft cloning issue - it's not a valid method. Sorry. :(
Unfortunately, I cannot agree that brain cells die immediately, or reanimation would be simply impossible. According to my information, brain cells live about 3 minutes after death.
Besides, that player didn't find my body, but I rather died on his hands, and he immediately did this trick.
As for scanning milliseconds to death, I understand that it was done for capsuleers to not remember their deaths.
Of course, if I missed something and it is completely impossible, I still have a chance to retcon, since our characters didn't contact much (we were avoiding each other) and weren't discussing what happened.
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You are correct. My source gives six minutes, more than double your source. I think I misunderstood my original source as talking about how fast the cells die after those 6 minutes and there is no oxygenated blood left to use.
This is all assuming that she died because her heart stopped, not due to any physical trauma to the brain itself. In those scenarios, the entire concept is moot, because even if brain death is not instantaneous - the scan is worthless. It would be like trying to photocopy a picture that's been damaged. The copy will be damaged too.
At any rate, the PF is very clear about scanning at the moment of death - or it doesn't work at all. I will quote a passage for you:
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Capsule_and_the_Clone
The crucial element in the process relies on a brain-scan snapshot being taken at the precise time of death and transmitted to the waiting clone, and so the transneural burning scanner required to do so needs to be mounted somewhere close to the person at all times. Since the snapshot itself causes massive physical damage to the gray matter, there can be no margin of error; it needs to be done at the exact time of death. In planetary vehicles, the cloning companies have experimented with mounting the transneural scanner in a variety of locations, but the almost limitless potentiality of planet-bound environments has proved time and again that it just isn’t safe – snapshots either go off due to false stimuli, leaving healthy clients in a vegetative state, or fail to go off due to circumstances unforeseen by the safeguard mechanism, leaving clients dead with no chance of retransplantation.
It says nothing about the comfort of the person being cloned. The purpose of the neurotoxin being injected is to prevent the scanned body from accidentally surviving the cloning process in a vegetative state.
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You are correct. My source gives six minutes, more than double your source. I think I misunderstood my original source as talking about how fast the cells die after those 6 minutes and there is no oxygenated blood left to use.
This is all assuming that she died because her heart stopped, not due to any physical trauma to the brain itself. In those scenarios, the entire concept is moot, because even if brain death is not instantaneous - the scan is worthless. It would be like trying to photocopy a picture that's been damaged. The copy will be damaged too.
At any rate, the PF is very clear about scanning at the moment of death - or it doesn't work at all. I will quote a passage for you:
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Capsule_and_the_Clone
The crucial element in the process relies on a brain-scan snapshot being taken at the precise time of death and transmitted to the waiting clone, and so the transneural burning scanner required to do so needs to be mounted somewhere close to the person at all times. Since the snapshot itself causes massive physical damage to the gray matter, there can be no margin of error; it needs to be done at the exact time of death. In planetary vehicles, the cloning companies have experimented with mounting the transneural scanner in a variety of locations, but the almost limitless potentiality of planet-bound environments has proved time and again that it just isn’t safe – snapshots either go off due to false stimuli, leaving healthy clients in a vegetative state, or fail to go off due to circumstances unforeseen by the safeguard mechanism, leaving clients dead with no chance of retransplantation.
It says nothing about the comfort of the person being cloned. The purpose of the neurotoxin being injected is to prevent the scanned body from accidentally surviving the cloning process in a vegetative state.
I am sorry, I think I simply misunderstood about purpose of scanning in exact moment of death.
As for brain damage, well, I didn't consider trying to scan damaged brain :twisted:
My character lost consciousness from acute brain ischemia, caused by massive blood loss from sliced heart chamber.
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As long as the scan was done within 5 minutes of the injury, then it works. Any longer than that and we're really pushing the limits of realism.
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Kat layin' down da law!
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Lets just say it was.
The magic of Fiction
:D
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All I got from this thread was... Total Recall.
But only after the amnesia.
That's when I realized Celeste Fauconnier wasn't the wife, but in fact a Black Eagle operative trying to use it as cover to murder Veikitamo.
Also, never RP with Vieve.
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All I got from this thread was... Total Recall.
But only after the amnesia.
That's when I realized Celeste Fauconnier wasn't the wife, but in fact a Black Eagle operative trying to use it as cover to murder Veikitamo.
Also, never RP with Vieve.
Oh, good grief, you figured it out.
What tipped you off? The Inghenges connection?
*ducks*
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All I got from this thread was... Total Recall.
But only after the amnesia.
That's when I realized Celeste Fauconnier wasn't the wife, but in fact a Black Eagle operative trying to use it as cover to murder Veikitamo.
Also, never RP with Vieve.
Oh, good grief, you figured it out.
What tipped you off? The Inghenges connection?
*ducks*
The mailbox company in Inghenges would have worked too if you had made sure your end-point shipments were secure.
*strokes fluffy white cat*
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The mailbox company in Inghenges would have worked too if you had made sure your end-point shipments were secure.
*strokes fluffy white cat*
Stupid government contractors. Should have known better, what with their spectacular information security screwup down planet (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/snipehunt-assaults-fio-is-wiped-out-by-black-eagles/), but noooo, we can't ditch them! They promised that they purged all their SnipeHunt tainted assets! And we can't break the contract -- do you have any idea what the kill fee would be?
Hrmph.
*goes back to hide under her rock*