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[Silas Vitalia]

A favorite topic of mine and something some of you might have fun thinking about to flesh out your characters and their interactions:

How many baseliners support your character and their organization?

If you are a new capsuleer or are running a 'small' outfit, what sort of staff and numbers do you have?

Say I'm fresh out of academy and piloting a frigate or cruiser, maybe a few hundred in total? Dock staff, ship crew, etc? What are these interactions like?

Say I'm in a small mining organization and I have a handful of ships, maybe a few hundred or a few thousand?

As we grow older, become more wealthy, and join larger organizations, the numbers start to become quite quite large.

Back when we were at our largest and held 0.0 sovereignty, we did a 'rough calc' for ship crews and support staff and it started getting a bit ridiculous into a few millions of baseliners needed to run all the ships, stations, etc. 

Those high numbers seem super plausable but might be useful for your RP to remember if you are in a large alliance, there's a LOT of baseliners toiling day and night to keep those organizations running. 


MORE FOOD FOR THOUGHT:

How does this translate into planetside and 'combat' operatives? If you are a military organization like PIE or U'K, you have to imagine that your large number of baseliners also equates to a large number of 'military' type baseliners as well.

Planetside operatives, agents, paid informants, all that sort of thing.


Aldrith Shutaq and I had a great time thinking about this kind of thing when his CyberKnights attacked and wtfbbqd a lot of Silas' planetside cultist and narcotics facilities in Kingdom Space. 

Lots of fun potential here!

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Define Baseliner 

[Ghost Hunter]

Normals, the moniker we use for non-augmented personnel, are in the minority since they only exist under player Capsuleer jurisdiction. They are the equivalent of your 'baseliner'.

The actual Foundations itself I've entertained numbers in the hundreds of millions to the low billions. Hard numbers I don't like to commit to as the sense of scale in this game is extremely skewed. The actual upliftings from the pre-Incursion events I still think are extremely small compared to the human population potential. Ahh, maybe I'll write something for this...

[Silas Vitalia]

I didn't think your capsuleer group was the one getting all the 'uplifted'? Thought you all were helping the NPCs with all that? Not poking holes just not familiar with the specifics.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Esna has - at the very least - over 120,000 ship crew active at any time (3x Capital @ 20,000 each + 5x BS Hull @ average of 6,000 each + 6x BC @ average of 800 each + assorted smaller hulls). Not counted here are a number of hulls essentially in mothballs, manned by a bare skeleton crew until he would raise a full crew for those vessels if they come into usage again.


Beyond this, however, his support staff is probably equal to if not greater than this initial count: one of his carriers is a semimobile home, slave/prisoner treatment facility, and operations command center. He runs numerous stationside operations, some of the more sensitive ones hidden away under false names or front corporations. Some of these incorporate highly skilled personnel, such as privately hired clone technicians or engineers. At the very least, I would think there are 200,000 personnel in direct support operations.

Then there's the people who living on his Holdings. I don't even know where to begin with those.

[Ghost Hunter]

I didn't think your capsuleer group was the one getting all the 'uplifted'? Thought you all were helping the NPCs with all that? Not poking holes just not familiar with the specifics.

The Nation targeted different temperate planets in systems with varying sec status. In general, high sec worlds that went uncontested got millions of people (1-4) uplifted. Lowsec worlds achieved the same number if the whole planet was uplifted. High sec worlds seemingly only got a small chunk taken out of them.

I mention the numbers feel small because the rate at which humans expand when there are no restrictors (food, population density, etc) is ridiculous. Low sec worlds the argument can be made that the numbers are fine, but uncontested high sec worlds ... eh. It's a nit pick area, more than anything for me.

And no, the Foundations was not getting any of the uplifted, those all went to the Nation. The Foundations itself is an entire entity unto itself.

[Silas Vitalia]

Cool Esna.

Something I need to write up that I put some thought into was how that population works and survives when the capsuleer boss goes criminal / heretic / outlaw

So with Silas similar sorts of situation with a huge number of ground personnel, ships crews, etc, made up in large part by Nationalistic Kingdom Loyalists.  How does that go down when she comes out Sabik? I had RPd that the vast bulk of planetside legal assets were transfered to shell organizations with non-affiliated owners, etc to avoid a lot of RKN purging, but I have to imagine scores of innocent baseliner employees rounded up by Kingdom Police for mere association.

Same thing in space on ships' crews.  The best parallel I can find is to remember that episode of Battlestar Galactica (new series) where the Galactica mutiny occurs and all of the sudden the ship is embroiled in a firefight / coup attempt. 

Obviously the Sabik side won, but there's some good storeis of conflict, heroism, and loss in there.

[lallara zhuul]

I would have to say...

None.

To keep the sanity in check of the capsuleer.

It would have to be none.

All the 'people' are nothing more than ants.

The thing with the Amarrian mentality is that if they are not ants, they are martyrs.

Which would mean that on emotional level they would be nothing more than ants.

The heathens that die, they are subhuman, even less than ants.

But if you want to rub your epeen, sure, Lall had about 20 active BSs, a cap, a few industrial ships, about a hundred cruisers, almost a thousand  frigates around... I guess that would sum up to around 200k people involved in her combat operations.

But still, they would mean about as much as ants.

If I would like to wank some about her background and her family... you could add a few hundred to it.

But they could mean nothing anymore, mainly because of her perception of Godflesh.

If you would like to take into account all the people that were employed in the service of the capsuleer entity that she is, during her whole career, you could tag a few million, when you take into account all the production personnel, research personnel, recycling personnel, personnel connected to the missions and all the people that had died in the combat operations that she had been part of (friend and foe). But most of them overlap with the other capsuleers, mainly because they are part of the infrastructure that upkeeps them and makes them feel oh so special.

In the end when the push comes to shove, I would have to say that it is the whole Holy Amarrian Empire that has supported her as a capsuleer. To make her one and to keep her as one.

It is pretty much about infrastructure.

Which is really hard to limit.

(When she was a newbie she mined in the Federation and sold the minerals there, which would mean that the whole Federation was supporting her antics.)

[orange]

I mention the numbers feel small because the rate at which humans expand when there are no restrictors (food, population density, etc) is ridiculous. Low sec worlds the argument can be made that the numbers are fine, but uncontested high sec worlds ... eh. It's a nit pick area, more than anything for me.

It can be hard for people to wrap their head around the idea of millions & billions.   We, humans, are largely not setup to think about things on that scale.

Great example, can you imagine 10 people in a room?  Sure, you can probably even choose faces.
Can you imagine a group of 100 people?  Probably. 
Can you imagine 1000 people all in one place? Sorta
10,000?  That is a decent size sports stadium filled with people
100,000?  Uh, kinda.
1 Million? Gosh that is a lot of people
1 Billion? That is a lot more people

There are people who can think at 10^6 or 10^9 scales, but the numbers can be overwhelming for the average person.  There is little effective difference between million and billion for many.

[hellgremlin]

The Guiding Hand Social Club uses baseliners (and lesser capsuleers) in the following manner:

SHIPS

- Slaves. Only employed on Amarr vessels. Since Amarr vessels are designed with slaves in mind, GH-SC ships of Amarr origin employ slaves as well as Amarr taskmasters and minders. This is to maintain an appearance of normalcy.
- General ship crew. Hired from stations in the same manner other capsuleers hire ship crew. Crew is not informed of the ship's GH-SC flagging, and instead convinced they're flying for a generic capsuleer merchantman or mercenary. They are aware of danger, but not the real danger: serving on a GH-SC vessel.
- High risk ship crew. Crewmen who have been hired on GH-SC operations and previously exceeded performance expectations under anonymous employer conditions. This crew subsection is informed regarding who they're working for. Those who can deal with this awareness are brought into the fold; those who cannot are not allowed to leave with the secret they learned. Their pay is approximately ten times that of the general crew, but they are bound by non-disclosure pacts not to divulge this, or their awareness of whom they're working for, to the general crew.
- Contracted capsuleers. Certain members of GH-SC have profound aversions to capsule operation, especially with regard to battleship-class vessels and larger, and prefer to command their ships in the old way; from a bridge with a crew drawn from the high-risk group. In such cases the "captain" sits in his pod, executing every whim of the actual ship's commander in near-real-time by virtue of a 1:1 connection between the contracted capsuleer and the GH-SC overmind who calls the shots on that particular vessel. This enables the GH-SC man to avoid pod-slime and claustrophobia, while still maintaining a degree of command over his vessel to compete with actual capsuleers. (Istvaan Shogaatsu in particular is known to avoid capsule operation personally.)

PLANETS

- The Guiding Hand Social Club maintains a consistently ill-defined presence of baseline agents, collaborators, criminal contacts and helpers in planetside nightclubs across the four empires. The number of these individuals is estimated in the low hundreds to a thousand at most. It is believed many are involved in drug trade, with overt ties to the Serpentis cartel.
- The GH-SC appears to possess the luxury of completely unfettered relations with planetary governors in the Amarr Empire, political figures in the Caldari State, and prominent luminaries in the Gallente Republic. Their members have been witnessed consorting with high-ranked politicos in all three of the above empires. The GH-SC does not appear to have significant baseliner planetary assets in the Minmatar Republic, for reasons unknown.
- The GH-SC appears to have an inexplicably high degree of access to the Amarr Sarum family; GH-SC members have been recorded engaging in first-name-basis conversation with advisors, council-members and lords of House Sarum. Rumours abound of clandestine encounters between Istvaan Shogaatsu, head of the GH-SC, and Jamyl Sarum, the present Holy Empress of Amarr; these have never been corroborated or substantiated.

[Ava Starfire]

Ava maintains a small personal security force of people, picked by her, from her Clan, perhaps 6-10 individuals.

Ava also keeps on staff a group of mechanics and engineers to maintain and perform repairs on her ships, which are all frigates and have no crew. Here, probably 1-2 dozen individuals.

Lastly, Ava does have a private medical staff to see to her myriad medical issues, a couple of physicians and their assistants.  These people are likely just doctors who run private practices, however, so theyre not exclusively "Under Ava's command".

And lastly, Ava has for 2 years operated a hospital/children's home for very high-need children freed from slavery; children with life-altering injury, disease, or psychological issues. This is in Gelfiven, and requires several hundred teachers, doctors, staff, etc, but these people have nothing to do with Ava's "combat operations".

All in all, 30-40 people for her "combat/day to day" activities, perhaps 4-500 if the hospital is included.

[Ghost Hunter]

I mention the numbers feel small because the rate at which humans expand when there are no restrictors (food, population density, etc) is ridiculous. Low sec worlds the argument can be made that the numbers are fine, but uncontested high sec worlds ... eh. It's a nit pick area, more than anything for me.

It can be hard for people to wrap their head around the idea of millions & billions.   We, humans, are largely not setup to think about things on that scale.

Great example, can you imagine 10 people in a room?  Sure, you can probably even choose faces.
Can you imagine a group of 100 people?  Probably. 
Can you imagine 1000 people all in one place? Sorta
10,000?  That is a decent size sports stadium filled with people
100,000?  Uh, kinda.
1 Million? Gosh that is a lot of people
1 Billion? That is a lot more people

There are people who can think at 10^6 or 10^9 scales, but the numbers can be overwhelming for the average person.  There is little effective difference between million and billion for many.

This is a fair point. I am also considering the numerical implications compared to human population growth on earth over the last, I dunno, two hundred years?

I suppose if the vast majority of worlds in EVE are in the 'colony' stage still, these numbers are very accurate. I would think after a century or so on a planet we could reasonably look at numbers near a billion people, though. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the data.

[orange]

I suppose if the vast majority of worlds in EVE are in the 'colony' stage still, these numbers are very accurate. I would think after a century or so on a planet we could reasonably look at numbers near a billion people, though. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the data.

There is a real gap in knowledge regarding the state of the various worlds across the cluster.  Clearly there are ancient worlds that have had more than the Earth's present historical record.  We should remember that interstellar empires have already risen and fallen while the current powers were busily figuring out how to move beyond pack animals.

Planetary carrying capacity also clearly varies with technology availability.

It gets back to the discussion of just how many humans are out there in the cluster.

[Graanvlokkie]

I would have to say...

None ...

Personally, this is my feeling.

I climb in my pod, and my ship goes. I don't really care how it accomplishes that, as long as it does. Just like I dont count the bolts used in my car, or the capacitors in my computer.

I dock my ship, climb into my captains quarters, and when I want to go my ship is ready.

If I had to personally deal with one person on these types of matters it would be one to many.

[Graelyn]

Graelyn specifically hires junior officers who are trying to get into the Imperial Navy, but do not have the family connections or wealth to get in as an commissioned officer.

Sure, some will die, but the ones who survive will not only be given a glowing recommendation from The Cardinal that is sure to get them in the front door, but also possess experience and flexibility in tactics that even the Navy does not teach.

In this way he introduces an element of reform to the normally rigid and lock-step Officer corps of the Navy (and some security forces of other Amarr-loyal forces). He's been at this a long time now, so out there among the Golden Fleet is a growing number of individuals who are rising through the ranks on their own merits, using unconventional tactics and saving the day while their fellows wait and go by-the-book.

Perhaps someday an internal Navy board will crack down on this growing little faction of 'free-thinkers', but not while they distinguish themselves on the battlefield. Grae spends a lot of time and money opening doors of advancement for his chosen; a word here, a bribe there, goes a long way to making Commanders into Captains. Graelyn hopes to leverage the loyalty of these rising stars one day, and when the Golden Fleet comes after him some day (why would that happen?) he will have several aces up his sleeve...