Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Logan Fyreite on 16 Oct 2012, 22:07
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I'm surprised my earlier thread made it to page 3. :cube:
Now quick recap, Stillwater and EoM RPers apparently made some OOC contact and came up with an event that crashed a carrier on a small lowsec planet, massive casualties were reported. Perhaps to massive.
However the thing that makes me really wonder, is, perhaps these casualty numbers were inflated by Leo/Boma/and company to draw in RP. Perhaps a fact finding mission. It's been "active" for a few hours, nah near a day at this point.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=163603
is the thread in question. Now here's the trick(for me). I honestly believe Leo wants to engage people in RP here. In fact he invites a probe by the theology council, one that could be spear headed, by say, someone from PIE, or perhaps another interested party?
In fact just to ruffle some feathers I am going to make my own contribution to the thread to see if I can get things moving in a constructive direction.
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[mod]Just as a quick note, the first thread is here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3703.0), where you can view it in its catacombed glory to see the sorts of things that, if repeated in this thread, will result in formal warnings. I know this sort of thing inspires a certain level of passion, but please keep it inside the rules and guidelines.[/mod]
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*clears throat*
I'll repeat fantastic kudos to Stilwater and Boma who told me how excited he was to get this going.
+ Yay, space rp
+ Yay, Rpers putting assets and money where mouth is.
+ Yay for self-inflicted capital destruction in service of RP storyline
- Might have suspected people would be pissy about numbers, probably better to say 'massive casualties.'
+ Lowsec gets you much more leeway for this kind of thing as well - sparsely populated, unlikely to have planetary defenses preventing this kind of thing, etc etc
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Oh look, I was banned from the OOC. Cute. :bear:
However the thing that makes me really wonder, is, perhaps these casualty numbers were inflated by Leo/Boma/and company to draw in RP. Perhaps a fact finding mission. It's been "active" for a few hours, nah near a day at this point.
We kind of improvized on the run there, I was too busy with FCing and shooting and stuff to do the research on how much the kill count would actually be. I spoke with Boma afterwards and we settled for 3 millions as plausible, but of course, it might be less, it might be more. In terms of Skarkon having 20 million people, there's also a factor of it being a fringe system on the border of Republic/Thukker space, Akila is like a few jumps from Amarr (7 I think), and would thus probably be more densely populated. I'd say let's just go with Silas' variant and call it 'massive casualties', semantics wise, as there's no actual way to determine how many people live down there.
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Just chucking a few numbers in to see if you guys want to (and if you do how you) use them.
Assuming a direct 90 degree to surface impact, from a height equal to the orbit of the ISS (for ball park figure purposes of a realistic 'orbital descent before interception' scenario), we have a 1,057,500,000.00 kg mass operating under an 11.2mps acceleration (eve data regarding the planet in question) from a 433.4km height. This assumes the carrier to be largely intact.
A direct hit, from kinetic energy alone, will dump the equivalent of 45% of the energy that went into making the Meteor Crater in Arizona. With a barren planet such as this, it is unlikely that this will be mitigated in any way by a splash down (which would possibly actually result in more catastrophic long term ecological effects). I will leave it to better people than I to theory-craft the effects of super-heated dust/sand/iron oxide or whatever in the long term.
Put into perspective, the energy transfer is the equivalent of a directed 1.06 megatons of TNT. Higher gravity may mean slightly decreased blast radius/effects due to pressure, but as we don't know the air mix down there, I am assuming that the energy gained from increased acceleration counteracts any mitigating pressure/gravity.
If the full powergrid of the thanatos were active (unlikely after 'destruction' in orbit), it would contribute a mere 15 kilotons of TNT, potentially after the main impact event, assuming the full value of the powergrid (without skills) dumped in 1 millisecond. This is 11 x Little Boy's blast energy.
All in all, a direct kinetic hit, unless you are extremely unlucky (and have a major city right on the dot), is going to really bugger up a select area and very likely going to generate a small army of phd graduates when observation of the climate and ecological effects is done. Instead of poo pooing the idea of 3 million deaths (or a large number at least) outright, let's look at some scenarios:
1. A skidding impact could carry the main sections of the hull some way, increasing the area of effect and literally grinding everything in the skid's path to paste/rubble. Driving a 1km long, 300m wide block of super structure through the middle of a metropolitan area, even if it bled speed on a cross-country crash course, is going to severely maul the population and infrastructure. A post-landing explosion, or series of such, even on the order of 'Little Boy' level outbreaks of fusion failure, is going tto add to the carnage. Also look at infrastructural failure - gas mains and power plants react badly to impact event kinetic energy.
2. The air on the planet is toxic/thin/exposure can kill you within an hour. Any earthquake (barren worlds are tectonically inactive generally - going on their description in game - thus architecture may not account for such activity) generated by impact might breach biodomes, collapse buildings etc. Eitherway, even low levels of exposure to the impact event itself may destroy or disrupt the balance of local contained environments, causing deaths by proxy in a time frame we can consider 'immediately consequential'.
3. The break up scenario. Large chunks of heated super structure hit the planet. Combined with 2, this can lead to the containment failure of multiple biodomes.
Please bear in mind this is just a bit of fun theory crafting, not ammo for refutation/denial/argument generation from either side of any OOC debate. My intent is to provide a 'pseudoscience' framework that individuals of either side can use to 'build cases' in IC debate, should they wish. On my end, running the numbers was something to do while off work sick and already crunching figures in wolfram alpha.
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The ship is mostly made out of tritanium.
Last I heard tritanium disintegrates in an atmosphere.
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Good point Lallara, though beyond that fact I have no idea how tritanium alloys react. Is there any PF we can dig up for info - I know The Burning Life has some trit based 'salvation' devices that make use of trits instability in an atmosphere, but am unsure of any additional info.
For reference I should probably state that the above post of mine is just concerned with the 'if it hit, how did it hit' scenario - materials science/science fiction aside.
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As I understand in re-entry situations to an atmosphere the angle is really important.
Too little, you bounce off, too much and its like hitting a brick wall, even in the optimal angle you get problems from friction with the atmosphere.
Without protection against that, there is no chance in hell that there will be anything resembling a solid mass reaching ground.
More likely a hail of hot metal and followed by slight black rain.
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Hey, cool. Guesstimating it, I arrived at roughly the same figures - equivalent to a nuclear blast of about one megaton, assuming no losses to atmosphere - a lot depends on how dense and structurally sound that carrier is. Assuming most of the energy makes it to ground zero, that's equivalent to a fairly large nuclear weapon blast right at the impact site. It could kill millions if it landed in a very densely populated area; maybe more if it hit a major city. Those tend to look like small pinpricks from space, though, and aiming a dead carrier at it could be difficult.
Not going to touch the "trit explodes in atmosphere" thing much; if it does, and is about equivalent to TNT in energy, and most of it makes it down to the ground, it would roughly double the megaton value of the blast. Due to the way these things scale, that wouldn't actually make the blast that much more lethal.
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The ship is mostly made out of tritanium.
Last I heard tritanium disintegrates in an atmosphere.
I heard it just becomes unstable. I always thought the unstable part was losing its structural integrity, like steel does at +300 celsium temperatures.
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On another note, thanks for Aldrith and Mitara for coming over to Akila, I was afk while you were visiting and making pick-ups, if I was there I would've RPed with you (or shot you for tresspassing ^^), kudos to getting some initiative going on in regards to the event.
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And Boma Airaken hijacked a Stillwater Oracle and was shot down, but his pod got away, moving towards amarr highsec.
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I remember reading Tritanium becomes stable in Mexallon and pyrite alloys. regardless, considering a thanatos is covered in very very thick armour plating, covered in heat resistant plating, even with the gaping holes that would be in it, surely allot of the mass of that is going to hit the ground very solid.
Personally I think three million dead due to the fallout of a bloody carrier falling on their heads is a conservative estimate since it's supposed to have hit a city of 20 million. then there is the little boy equivalent explosion and god help you if you get a carrier sized, intact power core blowing the hell up on you.
Anyway, there must be quintillions of people in Eden, why is 3 million so hard to believe?
Also can we please get back on topic? It's far to early for you lot to be pissing and moaning.
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The calculations for severity of impact are by mass alone? What about all the explodey bits, like the carrier's reactors and munitions stores?
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I'm assuming they mostly went kablooey in the initial destruction of the carrier, or that that any surviving particularly explody stuff is either inherently stable*, will fratricide each other if it does go off, or is comparable in power to conventional explosives - mostly insignificant on the megaton scale.
*: dropping a nuclear reactor or nuclear bomb from orbit, you're likely to end up with a very broken version of the same, not a giant explosion.
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Yeah Ishtvaan, what Jev said, not to mention I wasn't making much of a calculus As I was busy FCing and shooting at it and all at the same time.
Also, recent development, Boma is out at large again, and it seems some Sani Sabik group set him free. Another chance for people to get involved instead of moaning around numbers. Aldrith and Mitara were doinitright.
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Seems to me to be in extremely poor taste
Aldrith and Mitara were doinitright.
/me is so confused LOL.
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Well, if you see it as 'moaning about numbers' I'll just stop the theory crafting right there, but I have no IC reason nor momentum to do more than say 'Oh my how terrible' to a few friends over the regular feeds due to distance/politics/all that.
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Hmm, ships crashing into planets would be pretty sweet feature in DUST 514. Unforunately the level of devastation would probably eliminate the 'renewable battleground' aspect the game would require for stability.
Hmmm maybe in water worlds and such?
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This may be a juncture to 'talk about it in another thread' or otherwise discuss it in greater depth but I have it on good, non-NDA protected authority that CCP are 'looking into crashed ships as map features'. Now if they are event driven (IE a chance for large enough ships to provide a scattering of wreckage all the way up to a full on crippled hulk being beached, should they be taken out in orbit by defenses or whatever) that would be nice - But atm all we have is a vague hint of 'yeah, cool stuff like that *thumbs up*' from the grape vine.
Still, it would add even more weight to events like this one here - and also the 'disappearance' of wrecks once a district has changed hands or otherwise been in a state of stability for some time, can be hand waved with the 'salvage drones' examples CCp are already inserting into the client-facing dust fiction portal.
That's all I have on that front, but I'd love to spin some ideas for 'Features and Discussion' with some like minded hopefuls.
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Oh man, that'd be kind of awesome.
Imagine a Dust mission where the capsuleer ship you rely on for orbital fire support gets shot down, makes planetfall, and you have to extract the capsuleer from the still-exploding-in-places wreckage, because he can't suicide properly due to pod damage.
Imagine if sometimes, instead of being aloof untouchable sky gods, capsuleers needed to be rescued by Dusties when things went balls up.
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Oh man, that'd be kind of awesome.
Imagine a Dust mission where the capsuleer ship you rely on for orbital fire support gets shot down, makes planetfall, and you have to extract the capsuleer from the still-exploding-in-places wreckage, because he can't suicide properly due to pod damage.
Imagine if sometimes, instead of being aloof untouchable sky gods, capsuleers needed to be rescued by Dusties when things went balls up.
This would be easy to set up. Any pvp battles on grid with a planet, any destroyed ships, your pods are removed from grid and placed in a server 'holding pattern' while the next available pvp match in Dust loads you in as the 'RESCUE / KILL ' VIP'
You stay in 'stasis' on grid until the pvp dust match is over. Team A wins, you are rescued for a fee and returned to nearest station. Team B wins, you are podded.
Cue awesome cutscene.
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This involves taking EVE players and saying "Hi, the server says you can't do anything", which is boring, and hence not a good thing for retaining EVE players.
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If crew ever became a stat bonusing item, they would be ideal for kill/rescue DUST missions on planets.
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This involves taking EVE players and saying "Hi, the server says you can't do anything", which is boring, and hence not a good thing for retaining EVE players.
I'd look at it more like a short 'time out' after losing a ship. A penalty where you get a 50/50 chance to not be podded instead of probably losing that pod.
Also any number of graphics or video feeds they could provide client side to increase the tension and drama :)
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I don't think that a time out is going to go down well with quite a lot of players, as much as I like anything that adds to the realism of the game. However, the 'salvage rights' over a piece of technology like that, even after it has fallen from orbit, might be worth fighting over.
From the other side, it'd be nice if eventually warbarges could be destroyed, and to lift 'assets committed' from the ground (such as reserved tanks in a base, for example, or MCC assets) you have to remain in orbit with carriers/super carriers to take on as much as you can in some kind of base defence extraction scenario. i want the extremes of both sides of this symbiotic relationship and everything in between to be visited in time!
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Sup Silas. Heard Boma is under your jurisdisction nows.
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we haz the bomaz.
There might be pew for those wishing to steal him back.
Or bearing that we shall see :)
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gtfo, we still haz teh Kyonoke component
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I can haz trades?
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Contact me ICly
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gtfo, we still haz teh Kyonoke component
I hope you plan on biomassing Leo, and anyone trading for it is willing to biomass. Because it's physically impossible to have that in your possession (unless you're crazy cheating Kuvakei, somehow... with magic) without death to you and anyone else that comes within the same biosphere.
EDIT: There is no way to even acquire it unless CCP gives it to you, as of right now Kuvakei is the only person that has ever contained it (and that was with magics that isn't available to any other faction in the entire universe). If you have somehow managed to convince CCP to give you the same magical device/technology to contain it... then I'll retract my statements, but till then I'm going to wave my flag (http://i.imgur.com/T2Q1a.gif).
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*underlines the component part*
Did I ever say either party has the actual Kyonoke in their hands?
Nope.
So play along. Or don't. Also, welcome back to Eve.
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*underlines the component part*
Did I ever say either party has the actual Kyonoke in their hands?
Nope.
So play along. Or don't. Also, welcome back to Eve.
It's... already a prion. Aka a protein string smaller than a virus, you can't break it down anymore without making it basic hydro-carbons and sugars. At which point, you can't actually assemble it, because no one knows what it's molecular structure is. That's because no one can study it to find out what it's structure is.
The polite way to say this is "you're talking out your ass about things you don't know." Trust me, I looked into Kyonoke and every possible way of dealing with it during the shenanigans between Kuvakei/Ethan/Guristas; the only way to deal with it, in any form, is the way Sansha himself is doing it and we don't know what that methodology is. Therefore, it's impossible for your character to have access to it.
EDIT: Thanks, I've been around off and on, just been busy with RL so only been doing some light trade stuff and poking my head into OOC on occasion.
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[mod] Thread cleaned. [/mod]
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While i have yet to finish reading the entire thread, if i remember TEA correctly, the FedNav interceptor that was flowing into atmosphere by one of the characters during the caldari prime invasion had no problems with tritanium instability in atmosphere, so i'd hazard a guess that the alloys used to make starships have been hardened against that particular issue.
Consider that the armour forge from the beginning of the book primarily created starship armour components too... it'd be hard to make them on a planet if they'd turn into a pool of hazardous liquid during transport.
also... the interceptor's power core, when detonated, caused a nuclear explosion sufficient to simply atomise a large number of the dropships near it when it went pop. This makes me wonder what effects the powercore of a capital vessel would have when it hit the atmosphere, or worse, hit the planet.
on a more IC note, I'm sure boma was aiming to cause the largest possible amount of damage, so setting the ship on a course that would have made a successful re-entry and then hit the largest population centre his scanners could find, would fit that scenario perfectly. If the collision wasn't directly on a population centre, it would likely have been close to one.
just my thoughts though.
-Rok
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gtfo, we still haz teh Kyonoke component
I hope you plan on biomassing Leo, and anyone trading for it is willing to biomass. Because it's physically impossible to have that in your possession (unless you're crazy cheating Kuvakei, somehow... with magic) without death to you and anyone else that comes within the same biosphere.
EDIT: There is no way to even acquire it unless CCP gives it to you, as of right now Kuvakei is the only person that has ever contained it (and that was with magics that isn't available to any other faction in the entire universe). If you have somehow managed to convince CCP to give you the same magical device/technology to contain it... then I'll retract my statements, but till then I'm going to wave my flag (http://i.imgur.com/T2Q1a.gif).
Sorry to take it off track here for a moment. The following approaches the issues raised by Inara in a purely 'could it be done in character' fashion. It ignores, on purpose, the question of whether CCP would 'allow' anything below to happen.
For capsuleers, the possession of it (once obtained) really isn't that hard. It's my opinion that the cloning and rebirth tech that's second nature to a capsuleer is the 'magic' that allows Sansha to have stolen and kept it in the first place. Sure, you'll die a lot - and painfully - but capsuleers do that as part of their everyday routine. And soft-clones are a good way of not remembering the agony you've put yourself through X times already today. Expensive though, at least at the outset. Also - EoM? Dying and death-dealing is kind of their religion.
Transport's more of an issue - I don't know how you transport it through jumpgates, for example. Again Nation's self-generated wormholes seem to provide an answer for this, at least for them.
Containment in a facility? Apart from the massive costs that might be involved it appears that the Caldari State have managed to at least contain it and perhaps even found ways to push forward with some research on it in Taisy. How many they've lost to the prion in doing so is anyone's guess but it does suggest at least one containment protocol that's worked in PF which is backed up by live events. There's also the PF question of the freighter rumoured to have stolen a sample many years ago which has never been found but presumably would still have active Kyonoke on board should it ever be tracked down.
So, as a capsuleer, it really comes down to a few simple questions:
- How many clones are you willing to sacrifice and how many times are you willing to soft clone yourself?
- How many of your non-capsuleer staff are you willing to sacrifice?
- How will you transport it between systems?
- How much ISK are you willing to dump into a containment facility?
- Do you want to research it, or do you just want to store it away for a rainy day weapon of massive biowarfare destruction?
Getting hold of the protein itself as per PF is extremely difficult, almost impossible, sure. And that's without considering what CCP wants to do with it. But it is still plausible depending on how it's run in RP. Getting hold of data on the virus is also difficult (less so than the protein itself) and also still very plausible dependent on the RP background in place.
Without knowing what backstory (if any) Boma and Leo worked up here, it's kind of hard to know whether 'waving your flag' is reasonable or not.