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Author Topic: Abolish blasphemy laws  (Read 14978 times)

Lyn Farel

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #15 on: 18 Jun 2014, 13:16 »

Well, at least I learned something about blasphemy laws in Europe. I wasn't genuinely aware those still existed, but are they really commonly applied, or are they just a remnant of the past that has not much significance ?

Also, is that petition aimed at those laws in european countries, or at non third world countries ? That's a huge difference.

I think helping remove land mines and getting potable water is a pretty cool start.

While the other corporate hand pillages abundantly their natural resources and contributes to make them stay in their bankrupt, corrupted poverty and misery, because our own interests want it that way.

But it would still be a step ahead yes, considering we ain't even helping that much for now. However even with such initiatives, while the aforementioned point will still be widely practiced, even fixing these basic issues will do nothing eventually. You can't just make people live better by providing them food, water, and basic needs if you continue to pillage their countries and corrupt their governments. The only thing you will do is to render them even more dependent.
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Shiori

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #16 on: 18 Jun 2014, 14:17 »

I read this entire thread without realizing it was about real life until I finally checked the forum.

I thought we were talking about Amarr RP.

I double-checked the address bar to make sure I hadn't ended up on Tumblr somehow.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #17 on: 18 Jun 2014, 15:12 »

I read this entire thread without realizing it was about real life until I finally checked the forum.

I thought we were talking about Amarr RP.

I double-checked the address bar to make sure I hadn't ended up on Tumblr somehow.

Nobody's been told "check your privilege!" yet. Definitely not tumblr.

On a more serious response: I think focusing on blasphemy laws in particular is not a good start, because to those being accused it can often come off as "hey, we want to be allowed to bash your religion in particular" (and watching how conversations go in OOC when religion comes up, it's not an entirely inaccurate response). So if you just march in and insist that you be allowed to insult something which is held closely by a great many people in a given area, yes, you can reasonably expect that you aren't going to get a warm welcome.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Lyn Farel

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #18 on: 18 Jun 2014, 15:31 »

Huh, I am not sure there are laws against usual insults between people, I don't see why when it suddenly comes to insult over someone's religion there should suddenly be special laws against that (cf blasphemy laws). That's completely silly.

Either you create a law against any kind of insult and abuse, either your resort to traditional means like laws against defamation, abuse, etc. Religion doesn't need special treatment.
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Elmund Egivand

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #19 on: 18 Jun 2014, 19:07 »

Huh, I am not sure there are laws against usual insults between people, I don't see why when it suddenly comes to insult over someone's religion there should suddenly be special laws against that (cf blasphemy laws). That's completely silly.

Either you create a law against any kind of insult and abuse, either your resort to traditional means like laws against defamation, abuse, etc. Religion doesn't need special treatment.

Doesn't make it a good idea to go in and touch/deface/insult everything they hold sacred. Even if their religion makes no sense, telling them so is the fastest way to lose popularity and have them run you out of the country before you can even get to doing the important thing such as fixing their government or establishing schools and education systems for their children.

And what will you do next after they run you out of the country? Send the military in to occupy their population center like what we used to do during the Colonial Era?
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orange

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #20 on: 18 Jun 2014, 21:43 »

2) Fun fact for you: Blasphemy laws exist in quite a few places, not just in the middle east, and are being enforced in many of them. The Islamists want more of it, for instance in places like Europe.

In most European nations that have blasphemy laws it's always enforced, when it is it's often in the form of a slap on the wrist, but this is not always the case. Hell, there was even a guy arrested on blasphemy charges in Greece for making a joke on facebook.

Of all people, Bob Dylan has fallen foul of a blasphemy-related incident because someone was offended.

I think this is where any effort on the majority of our parts should focus.

For the moment, ignore the horribleness around the world.  In order to change many places it requires military occupation to affect change, to include establishing schools and getting them basic medical care, let alone introduce human rights.  The Taliban threatens polio vaccination efforts!

No, we have to correct the documentary issues within our own states and protect against lawfare targeting our culture and way of life.

Blasfemi betegner gudsbespottelse. Blasfemi er straffbart i Norge etter straffelovens § 142. Blasfemi er der definert videre enn bare gudsbespottelse, idet loven forbyr å vise ringeakt "for nogen trosbekjennelse hvis utøvelse her i riket er tillatt eller noget lovlig her bestående religionssamfunds troslærdommer eller gudsdyrkelse". Dette inkluderer også for eksempel "ringeakt mot sakramenter, trosbekjennelser og religiøse seremonier".

Påtale finner imidlertid bare sted "når allmenne hensyn krever det", og § 142 er en såkalt sovende paragraf.

Quote from: Google Translate, because my Dansk/Norsk is not great
Blasphemy denotes blasphemy. Blasphemy is illegal in Norway by Penal Code § 142 Blasphemy is there defined further than just blasphemy, the law prohibits showing contempt "for any creed if exercised in this country are allowed, nor any legal here consisting religionssamfunds religious doctrines or worship" . This includes for example "contempt against sacraments, creeds and religious ceremonies."

Prosecution however, occurs only "when the public interest so requires," and § 142 is a so-called sleeper section.

*I found the translation of the definition into English humorous due to gudsbespottelse translating as blasphemy along with blasfemi.

Worried about Blasphemy laws - get them stricken from your nations' laws and demand increased protections for freedom of speech!
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BloodBird

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #21 on: 19 Jun 2014, 05:48 »

Orange: This is exactly what I am doing. I want blasphemy laws to be removed entirely and not play a role anywhere to the denial of freedom of speech and basic human rights. Now, the blasphemy laws of Norway have lain dormant for quite some time, I've not found any case of it being put into action... well, ever. I'm sure there have been cases, but how far back in time they go is beyond me.

Regardless of that, I'll link here the petition itself, the link is on the YT video I linked in the OP. If this petition goes through (and it will at this rate) the UN commission on human rights are compelled to take action, something that will hopefully render impotent any blasphemy laws in Europe, at the very least.

--------------------------------

Blasphemy laws are used to infringe upon human rights.  They frequently lead to arbitary arrest, detention, poor treatment in custody including torture, dubious legal procedures and poor application of justice.  The definition of the offence can be in the hands of police and judicial authorities.  Governments have used blasphemy laws to silence political opponents.  Individuals have fabricated blasphemy charges against others in communal disputes.  Religious extremists have used blasphemy laws to attack opponents.  Religious authorities have used blasphemy laws to impose orthodoxy on members minority religious groups with the sanction of the state.  And people accused of blasphemy have been subject to violence by unofficial mobs.

To:
The Honorable Navanethem Pillay, United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights
Office of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights
Palais des Nations, CH-1211 Geneva 10, Switzerland

Re: Freedoms and Rights for Nonreligious and Secular People Worldwide

Dear Ms. Pillay:

We the signers humbly ask you to consider both a human rights petition and concern shared by a growing number of people persecuted for non-belief in religious dogma, including millions of atheists, agnostics and secularists around the world. Both the petition and the concern regard the enactment and enforcement of so-called blasphemy laws and their offshoots, such as defamation of religion and religious-insult “hate speech” legislation, in member states. The reality is that these blasphemy laws and “hate speech” legislation violate the cornerstone rights of freedom of expression, thought and conscience, tenuously upheld by the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (1976), Articles 18 and 19 in particular.

Advocates of blasphemy legislation and its offshoots argue that these laws protect the harmony of pluralistic societies. However, as demonstrated by a number of conclusive studies (available upon request) the enforcement of blasphemy laws actually deepens divisions among religious and secular groups, creating unnecessary civil unrest.

Discrimination and Dictatorship

In practice, blasphemy laws are used to infringe upon basic human rights, often utilized in a discriminatory and dictatorial manner, as they bestow upon inhumane leaders the legal means by which these rulers can persecute both religious minorities and non-religious groups alike.

Such legislation frequently leads to arbitrary arrest; detention; poor treatment in custody, including torture and death; dubious legal procedures; and poor application of justice. Additionally, the definition of an alleged blasphemy offense often lies in the hands of police and judicial authorities, again wielded arbitrarily and dictatorially.

Abuses of blasphemy legislation include the following:

•   Governments have used blasphemy laws to silence political opponents.
•   Religious authorities employ blasphemy legislation to impose doctrinal orthodoxy on members of religious groups, often with the sanction of the state.
•   Religious extremists utilize blasphemy laws to attack other sects, critics and nonbelievers, frequently fatally.
•   Unscrupulous individuals have fabricated blasphemy charges against others in local, communal disputes.
•   Vigilante mobs have committed violence against innocent and/or defenseless individuals accused of blasphemy, whether or not truthfully.

(Specific instances of the above-mentioned abuses are also available upon request.)

Moreover, blasphemy and “religious insult” legislation often is discriminatory based on social class and status, since it creates provisions whereby a skilled and educated defendant stands far less chance of prosecution than a less educated and privileged individual.

Suppression of Basic Freedoms and Other Objections

Even in relatively democratic regions, blasphemy and religious-insult “hate speech” laws have a universal “chilling effect” upon normal freedom of expression, including and especially free speech and the right to dissent.

Blasphemy legislation is a species of libel with no real rules of evidence or proof.

Blasphemy laws are either exclusive, favoring one religion over others, or else try to be inclusive, in which case they may be inadequate for protecting religious beliefs in conflict with one another.

Moreover, the legal criteria for recognition as an authorized or accepted religious group—where laws do not protect a specific, established religion—can be problematic and often are defined poorly.

Petition by Human Rights for Atheists, Agnostics and Secularists

To oppose arbitrary and barbaric blasphemy legislation, our organization Human Rights for Atheists, Agnostics and Secularists has created a petition, attached below, appealing to the United Nations to amend Articles 1.3, 13.1 (b), 55 (c) & 76 (c) of the Charter of the United Nations and the Statute of the International Court of Justice to include the non-religious and secular as an expressly protected group.

In so amending, the United Nations would be sending a clear message to its member states that imprisoning, torturing, executing and otherwise molesting secularists and nonbelievers such as atheists and agnostics is incompatible with basic human rights. As it presently stands, there are 13 countries around the world that can execute secularists and nonbelievers, along with many others that prescribe imprisonment and/or issue fines to those who do not share the majority religious view of the state or who are accused of “religious insult” or “hate speech.”

The primary aim of this limb of our petition—which has the support of Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Ricky Gervais, Roseanne Barr and other secular, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu signatories—is to bind member states that have refused to sign the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (1976). Our petition also aims to implore the United Nations to amend the ICCPR by narrowing and tempering the restrictions on freedom of expression enunciated in Articles 18.3 and 19.3 (a) and (b), as well as Article 20.2.

In this regard, our petition is in line with the proclamation made in 2011 by the United Nations Human Rights Committee, which declared that “prohibitions of displays of lack of respect for a religion or other belief system, including blasphemy laws, are incompatible with the [ICCPR].” (See; Human Rights Committee, “General comment no. 34, Article 19: Freedoms of opinion and expression,” UN Doc. CCPR/C/GC/34, para. 48; 2011.)

We thank you for your time and hope that you give this matter the attention that it deserves, on behalf of millions of human beings globally.

Sincerely,

Michael Sherlock
Founder and Co-Chairperson, Human Rights for Atheists, Agnostics and Secularists
http://www.MichaelSherlock.org
http://www.AtheistRepublic.com/blogs/michael-sherlock

D.M. Murdock
Co-Chairperson, Human Rights for Atheists, Agnostics and Secularists
http://FreethoughtNation.com
http://TruthBeKnown.com
http://StellarHousePublishing.com
http://www.Examiner.com/freethought-in-national/d-m-murdock

Michael Nugent
Chairperson of Atheist Ireland
http://www.MichaelNugent.com
http://www.Atheist.ie
Sincerely,
[Your name]


--------------------------------------------------------

This was my reason for sharing this with you all. It's something to think about at the very least, and if anyone of you sign it we are all that much better off. Whatever I may think of Muslims, Christians, anyone of any other faith or non-religious people, no-one has a right to harm or kill anyone because they supposedly insulted whatever religion you believe in.

There is no excuse for this. Several people have argued in this treat that blasphemy laws stem from poor social conditions and infrastructure in the middle east etc. and that we - the peoples of the western world - has no right to voice our concerns on the topic at all. Well, tough cookie for you folks, blasphemy laws exist in many other places than just the Islamic world, and they want it spread around along with their sharia laws. Hell, Saudi Arabia has called for criticism of religion to be outlawed in my country, this is highly ironic to me coming from a nation that has laws that define atheists as terrorists.

In short, poverty and poor infrastructure is not the chief reason for blasphemy laws, it's not even part of the equation. Blasphemy laws are based on religion, especially Islam, and the poverty levels have other causes. As an example again, Saudi Arabia is a very rich nation with over a fifth of the population living in piss-poor conditions. One would think the Saudi elite had the decency to deal with their own internal poverty, and it seems some movement is generating on that concern.

I hope they will stick to doing that as opposed to bitching to my government that we allow freedom of speech in our own country. Freaking priorities people.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #22 on: 19 Jun 2014, 06:05 »

Just sharing this article with you to put things a little bit in perspective. It's at least indirectly related, and the important bit is that our point of view we tend to consider as normal, is actually still a minority in the world.

It is a very interesting read in itself, anyway.

Also, maybe I feel a bit more concerned about crazy actions like this petition seems to be, as I feel that they only contribute to make things worse and add oil on fire. It's just stirring the bee's nest at best.

The only acceptable case were I could see that petition making sense is in the case of european countries, in the frame of the EU, or for other western powers like the US, Norway, etc. But as you say it yourself, you have yet to hear anything about blasphemy laws actually being applied in Norway, so is there really a point in doing so ? That sounds a bit like trying too hard in the case of such countries.

Well, maybe I don't see these laws and there are actually a lot of judicial cases around that happening in Europe. I can't tell sadly, maybe because I live in a country where such a thing would never happen, which makes me probably blind to other states : see, I wasn't even aware that so many western countries still had "blasphemy" laws... vOv

No, what i'm more concerned about is closer to the article I linked above.

Huh, I am not sure there are laws against usual insults between people, I don't see why when it suddenly comes to insult over someone's religion there should suddenly be special laws against that (cf blasphemy laws). That's completely silly.

Either you create a law against any kind of insult and abuse, either your resort to traditional means like laws against defamation, abuse, etc. Religion doesn't need special treatment.

Doesn't make it a good idea to go in and touch/deface/insult everything they hold sacred. Even if their religion makes no sense, telling them so is the fastest way to lose popularity and have them run you out of the country before you can even get to doing the important thing such as fixing their government or establishing schools and education systems for their children.

And what will you do next after they run you out of the country? Send the military in to occupy their population center like what we used to do during the Colonial Era?

I never said anything like that. I don't disagree with that...
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Tiberious Thessalonia

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #23 on: 19 Jun 2014, 09:20 »

In short, poverty and poor infrastructure is not the chief reason for blasphemy laws, it's not even part of the equation.

Small point:  While this is partly true, my point wasn't to say that poverty and starvation were the causes of these issues but that you can't fight this battle by trying to attack the religion, especially in places where the Western world is seen as "The Bad Guy".  You help fix the other issues, and the other stuff will come around, eventually.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #24 on: 19 Jun 2014, 09:37 »

There is much irony to be had in Americans thumbing our noses at those zany islamic nutjobs when there's a substantial, and I do mean substantial, % of Americans who want to impose Christian Sharia on the rest of the USA.

I say kill them all and let the Flying Spaghetti Monster sort them out.


My point being that even in 'first world' "advanced" countries you still have millions and millions of people who literally think the Earth is 7,000 years old and Moses talked to a bush on fire who thought he was special.



« Last Edit: 19 Jun 2014, 09:39 by Silas Vitalia »
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Lunarisse Aspenstar

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #25 on: 19 Jun 2014, 11:02 »

There is much irony to be had in Americans thumbing our noses at those zany islamic nutjobs when there's a substantial, and I do mean substantial, % of Americans who want to impose Christian Sharia on the rest of the USA.

I say kill them all and let the Flying Spaghetti Monster sort them out.


My point being that even in 'first world' "advanced" countries you still have millions and millions of people who literally think the Earth is 7,000 years old and Moses talked to a bush on fire who thought he was special.

Well this thread has gone quickly, and predictably, into catacomb territory.  I've deleted the rest of my response to this and hope this that is also gets catacombed.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #26 on: 19 Jun 2014, 14:08 »

There is much irony to be had in Americans thumbing our noses at those zany islamic nutjobs when there's a substantial, and I do mean substantial, % of Americans who want to impose Christian Sharia on the rest of the USA.

I say kill them all and let the Flying Spaghetti Monster sort them out.


My point being that even in 'first world' "advanced" countries you still have millions and millions of people who literally think the Earth is 7,000 years old and Moses talked to a bush on fire who thought he was special.

Well this thread has gone quickly, and predictably, into catacomb territory.  I've deleted the rest of my response to this and hope this that is also gets catacombed.

Not trolling, can you elaborate?

I was merely pointing out an imo interesting "glass house while throwing stones" issue with much of the derision aimed at third world countries.
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Lunarisse Aspenstar

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #27 on: 19 Jun 2014, 16:34 »


I say kill them all and let the Flying Spaghetti Monster sort them out.


This.  Responding in more detail off forum.
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Tiberious Thessalonia

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #28 on: 19 Jun 2014, 16:55 »

Wait to the FSM thing or the kill them all and let (x diety) sort them out thing because I think you may be over reacting either way


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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #29 on: 19 Jun 2014, 18:10 »

Wait to the FSM thing or the kill them all and let (x diety) sort them out thing because I think you may be over reacting either way


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Real quick I'll give a more eloquent response a bit later:

1. Joking, of course!

2. Possibly getting upset for (half jokingly) disparaging someone's religion gets into meta-irony territory in a thread about abolishing blasphemy laws.

3. We should all free to believe in whatever we like, but this might also mean either all of it's ok, or none of it is.   To wit, Muslims can't draw a picture of the Prophet, but Danish cartoonists can and should, however mockingly they choose.  Dick move, yes, but other culture's bugaboo's shouldn't infringe on other culture's either.

Super interesting topic, Lunarisse I'll respond to you more at length privately later I hope! 
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