Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Silver Night on 03 Dec 2012, 14:50
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Referring here to the official wiki article: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State)
Some interesting new information, particularly about the ethnic makeup of the State. I do find the cultural homogeneity across corporate lines that it suggests a bit hard to accept, though. It is in line with the whole simplifying of the State that came along with the rise of Heth, I suppose.
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Good information, including answers to questions about language and ethnicity.
I found myself itching to edit it, though. :) Mostly that was for style or grammatical agreement, but there was the occasional "I don't think you meant what you wrote there":
Non-entity
The meritocratic and ultracompetitive nature of the State means there are just as many winners as there are losers.
Edited to say that I'd love to see this enhanced with age pyramids and some discussion of birth rate, births-per-woman and mother's-age-at-first-child. This might help us better understand the context of the tube child program, and its (apparent?) recent fall from grace. Was it brought about by actual population pressure (in which locations or castes?)? Was it some sort of Caldari Lebensborn experiment? What's the status of children whose parents are not married, or are such births simply not permitted? And given what this says about dormitory-dwelling single life I'm dead curious about outlets for sexuality, age at marriage, and all that. :)
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Isn't that homogenuity relative to other places though, esp. that a place like the Fed would throw the average high up? Britain seems pretty homogeneous to someone from India who has no insider knowledge for example.
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Seri, if I had to pick one theme to take away from the article it'd be that the Caladari are really strong on being culturally Caldari. You take on their culture and single language or -- with only a few minor exceptions -- you don't count.
Why do you want to argue for more diversity there? I'm curious.
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Oh, I've always figured it to be like that Mata. I've just got bonked in the past for saying they're not really diverse compared to the other races...so guess I'm pandering.
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Seri, if I had to pick one theme to take away from the article it'd be that the Caladari are really strong on being culturally Caldari. You take on their culture and single language or -- with only a few minor exceptions -- you don't count.
Why do you want to argue for more diversity there? I'm curious.
Oh, I've always figured it to be like that Mata. I've just got bonked in the past for saying they're not really diverse compared to the other races...so guess I'm pandering.
There are at least 9 (megas+extracorporate org CN/CBT/etc) different cultures in the State, all of them appear to be Caldari from an outsiders perspective. It isn't the same has having a different skin color, language, or religion, but there are still cultural differences.
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I do find the cultural homogeneity across corporate lines that it suggests a bit hard to accept, though. It is in line with the whole simplifying of the State that came along with the rise of Heth, I suppose.
It might be me, but what I think the article implies is that cultural homogeneity and the racial component of being "Caldari" is inculcated by every Mega in the State to promote unity and uniformity which preceded Heth. Every Mega and political faction no doubt attempts to subtlety (or overtly at times) seek to define what being "Caldari" is to suit their own agendas and politics within and without the State.
That is currently less clear to players, since we're not actually experiencing contemporary Caldari culture and so aren't exposed to the same sort of media, advertising, social engineering and corporate strictures each Mega uses to define what it is to be Caldari in their own interest. For example, Wiyrkomi might in its media focus more on social conservatism, duty to the State and family values; whereas SuVee might emphasize ruthlessness, cunning and corporate darwinism to separate the weak from the strong in their own attempt to set the course in the dialogue of Caldari identity in the State. I think it's rather clear how important the media is in the State when Kaalakiota created an entire subsidiary in Echelon Entertainment just to counter Nugoeihuvei and get its own message across.
Currently though, Tibus Heth and the CPD simply place a stronger emphasis on the fact that to be Caldari culturally is to be Caldari in race (Traditional Deteis/Civire) which probably finds its strength in the fact that the State is the most racially homogenous society in New Eden and its understandable that such a form of nationalism would take root in a State that isn't multicultural to any degree.
Although I would agree, much of the more subtle aspects of the State during the cold war era seems to have been lost in all nationalist jingoism of Heth and the CPD but I don't think that makes it any less complex currently, just less apparent. The Caldari State remains one of those places where looking at it from the outside will just show the facade but ignores the varied undercurrents that exist beneath it with the differing Megacorporate outlooks, politics, social mores, history and traditions.
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Some interesting new information, particularly about the ethnic makeup of the State. I do find the cultural homogeneity across corporate lines that it suggests a bit hard to accept, though. It is in line with the whole simplifying of the State that came along with the rise of Heth, I suppose.
The article talks about homogenization occurring as part of the secession. The "Norm" was established by the CEP then and in the past 200 years, it will have been defined and redefined by each mega's media machine.
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This might help us better understand the context of the tube child program, and its (apparent?) recent fall from grace. Was it brought about by actual population pressure (in which locations or castes?)?
I always thought initially the tube child program was implemented during the earlier decades of the State due there not being enough workers and soldiers to fill all the positions required in the corporations and military so they artificially increased the birth rate through the program. There's little information though as to whether there was an independent State body that ran the program or if the Megas themselves ran their own programs - maybe both? If so, it might not be a continuous thing but only implemented "as required" by corporate leaders. I'd hazard a guess and say the Caldari prefer having children conceived naturally but they're pragmatic enough to reach for the tube program if the Megas feel they need to because it's a better option than having immigrant workers who can't or won't assimilate into the State system.
I think the latest tube program was cancelled because the State economy was shrinking and they no longer needed the same amount of workers projected. Actually, I think the CPD has a lot of disaffected tube children who grew up into adulthood when the State entered its recession and found out not only were they victims of social persecution (might have been placed in the same category as "half-breeds" and called "unnatural") but then also ended up unemployed due to the Megas having to cut costs.
Of course, we don't have transcripts of Heth's speeches but I suspect in some regards his vision of a "New Meritocracy" aims to be more egalitarian as regards tube children and half-castes (they no doubt constitute a significant portion of his popular support) so long as they adhere to whatever principles the CPD might regard as being pure Caldari.
There's also probably a very simple reason why single Caldari live in corporate dormitories: It's an incentive to get married and have children. Bigger flats are for married couples with lots of children who need all that space in order to raise them into the next generation of loyal workers and soldiers for the State. I think getting married and having children young is the rule rather than the exception in the State and there's probably a lot of pressure from family and society to make babies. Hell, there might even be career stigmas in not being married (Only married people with children can handle the burdens of further responsibilities in the corporate ladder. Single people are unreliable, irresponsible and will blow all their money gambling) so, even from a career perspective it's advantageous to get married.
Of course, that might lead to a lot of unhappy marriages so now I'm wondering if there's unwritten rules in the State governing how you should handle having discrete affairs with your colleagues because a divorce might be social and career suicide.
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Those are the sorts of questions I'd started wondering about, too. :)
As for tube children, I refer you to an earlier discussion here about when tube children became a thing (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3349.msg52790#msg52790). Essentially, we're trying to read a lot into the brief description.
Old style (http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Bloodlines:_The_Deteis#Tube_Child): "Acutely away [sic] of the small population of the Caldari State in comparison with the sprawling Gallente Federation, the Deteis have for decades utilized artificial procreation to increase their population. These tube-children are then raised in inhospitable, State-run orphanages, making them tough and self-reliant."
New style (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Deteis#Tube_Child): "Acutely aware of the small population of the Caldari State versus the sprawling Gallente Federation a generation ago, the Deteis once utilized artificial procreation to increase their population. While this program is no longer sponsored by the State, the Tube Children of today were raised in inhospitable, government-run orphanages. Many are fiercely independent, strong individuals loyal to the Caldari State."
I've argued, based on these, that the tube program was running long enough ago to produce "our" generation but probably not "our parents'" generation. It could just be awkward wording, though.
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I've argued, based on these, that the tube program was running long enough ago to produce "our" generation but probably not "our parents'" generation. It could just be awkward wording, though.
I'd tend to agree although the entire status of tube children is still rather ambiguous that almost any speculation about them sort of falls into the gap of, "Maybe" since there isn't any hard data on exactly when the program started, ended, and the percentage of Caldari in the State that were its progeny.
There's only the fact the program was no longer sponsored some time prior to the present date in New Eden for a few possible reasons that come to mind:
- Married couples asking, "What do you mean according to our DNA we're siblings?" (Awkward)
- Potential social maladjustment by tube children in wider Caldari society. (Might have been mitigated through foster programs.)
- Social stigmas in certain circles against "unnatural procreation" in the State.
Anyway, hopefully an Evelopedia entry might one day pop to clear away the ambiguities of tube children since it does form a significant background for many Caldari characters.
As for the topic at hand though, given this entry on the disassociated:
The second group includes those who've found themselves moving between two or three different corporations and who have in the process come to consider how thoroughly indoctrinated the average employee is. These individuals end up doing very well in non-standard careers or in unlikely places within the corporate structure, united solely by their lack of adherence to the standard caste ladder.
Is it me, or does that imply that in the State at least being a Freelance Capsuleer outside of the Megacorp. jurisdiction mean that you are viewed as being disassociated from the State itself (No longer directly employed by a Mega, under CONCORD not State oversight). It would explain why the State seeks to cordon off capsuleer freelancers - even Caldari ones - from the wider State community. I mean, as a capsuleer you're not exactly part of any caste in the State anymore, right?
Also, the article has a small typo or Tibus Heth has a time machine:
One of the more notable instances of this occurring was on Urlen II following Tibus Heth’s reclamation of Caldari Prime in YC105
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Use the talk page for edits.
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I mean, as a capsuleer you're not exactly part of any caste in the State anymore, right?
The obvious exception to that being those actively involved in factional warfare, whether an individual member of the Protectorate or belonging to a member corp. It would seem those capsuleers would still be considered part of the military caste since the Protectorate is referred to as an "auxiliary" of the Navy.
As far as the cultural and ethnic aspect, the most revealing section to me was: "Because of the megacorporations defining their subjects’ identities, the differences between the Deteis and Civire lay more in social habits, formal interactions, and philosophical approaches to being Caldari. They can not be considered distinct ethnicities like the other groups in New Eden."
Stating that they can not be considered distinct ethnicities and emphasizing social habits and interactions makes me view it as somewhat comparable to regional differences in nations. Pardon the US as an example, but for instance someone from New York has distinct behavioral differences from someone from New Orleans without any ethnic differences being necessary.
P.S. Hi! Joined a while ago, but never posted. Happy to be here.
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As far as the cultural and ethnic aspect, the most revealing section to me was: "Because of the megacorporations defining their subjects’ identities, the differences between the Deteis and Civire lay more in social habits, formal interactions, and philosophical approaches to being Caldari. They can not be considered distinct ethnicities like the other groups in New Eden."
Stating that they can not be considered distinct ethnicities and emphasizing social habits and interactions makes me view it as somewhat comparable to regional differences in nations. Pardon the US as an example, but for instance someone from New York has distinct behavioral differences from someone from New Orleans without any ethnic differences being necessary.
Quite possibly, although it does leave me wanting to ask the writer (and you!) what's intended by "ethnicity". Modern definitions are quite fluffy and can be entirely cultural (see the Wikipedia definition and discussion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group)).
It sounds like the Caldari State includes "Caldari", Achura, and others. The "Caldari" come in two flavours which are generally seen as having different traits, strengths, and mythic ancestries: "fast and strong" Civire from Kivire's Fuukiuye people of the east, and "Wise", "calm and deep" Deteis from Deteaas' Oryioni people of the north. The two groups are discouraged from intermarrying. They share a language, a general culture, and a myth of origin about how their peoples came together (Cold Wind (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=28-04-06)).
P.S. Hi! Joined a while ago, but never posted. Happy to be here.
Hello and welcome!
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I mean, as a capsuleer you're not exactly part of any caste in the State anymore, right?
The obvious exception to that being those actively involved in factional warfare, whether an individual member of the Protectorate or belonging to a member corp. It would seem those capsuleers would still be considered part of the military caste since the Protectorate is referred to as an "auxiliary" of the Navy.
True, but I was considering more along the lines that just getting capsuleer implants in the first place might carry with it the same social stigmas among Caldari as being "Disassociated" since you no longer work directly for a Mega as a freelancer.
Although reading through that article I realized both my Caldari characters:
- Are capsuleers.
- Are tube children.
- Parents are divorced.
- One is Deteis but married to a Civire.
- One is SuVee but moved to Kaalakiota.
- One is a long time bachelor.
I mean damn they would be the subject of a lot of both subtle and overt prejudice and stigma in the State due to their backgrounds and life choices. :lol:
Oddly though, I seem to find that interesting and wonder if other characters will pick up on it in the future.
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You do seem to tick a number of boxes that seem likely to make other Caldari look askance. :)
One particular question, though:
Although reading through that article I realized both my Caldari characters:
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- Are tube children.
- Parents are divorced.
Since the write-up for tube children says they were raised in "inhospitable, government-run orphanages (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Deteis#Tube_Child)" I'd always assumed they were created with donor material, and that they wouldn't know their parents.
Do I take it you've assumed that artificial procreation was available electively to busy couples? How does that work out for you?
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Since the write-up for tube children says they were raised in "inhospitable, government-run orphanages (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Deteis#Tube_Child)" I'd always assumed they were created with donor material, and that they wouldn't know their parents.
Do I take it you've assumed that artificial procreation was available electively to busy couples? How does that work out for you?
Well in terms of backgrounds their parents were executives who wanted to have "perfect" offspring to continue their legacies and had the means and access to ensure their children had the best possible chance in life through the genome therapies the tube child program offered?
I don't think it's too far-fetched to envision the upper echelons of State society using the tube child program to "donate" their zygotes to and then "adopt" the products of the program once they are conceived. Even in the ideally egalitarian and meritocratic State there's no doubt those who might be more equal than others due to their positions and familial ties that can probably bend the rules here and there, no?
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Katrina is certainly a bit outcast in the State. She's displayed a relationship with another female, with intent to marry (with the new RP changes, this makes me wonder who the heck would marry them. Maybe under Mordu's Legion?).
The only thing she has going for her is that she's certified pureblood Deteis, traceable all the way back to the exodus to The Forge and Citadel regions. Meaning she's pretty much got a pedigree that says she is 'pure Deteis'.
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Well in terms of backgrounds their parents were executives who wanted to have "perfect" offspring to continue their legacies and had the means and access to ensure their children had the best possible chance in life through the genome therapies the tube child program offered?
I don't think it's too far-fetched to envision the upper echelons of State society using the tube child program to "donate" their zygotes to and then "adopt" the products of the program once they are conceived. Even in the ideally egalitarian and meritocratic State there's no doubt those who might be more equal than others due to their positions and familial ties that can probably bend the rules here and there, no?
It's a tricky one, isn't it? Whatever works, and clearly you've got background there already, but it tweaked some of my "this would be an exception to the norm, piled on top of other exceptions" sensors.
I don't know that I could make a referenced case for my interpretation, and I don't particularly want to at the moment, so here's my very personal response.
The proper Caldari way to bear your young is with as little intervention as possible, to show that your line is strong and could survive the downfall of civilisation on an ice planet. The apparent low Caldari birth rate (?) is therefore a particular issue of concern and awkwardness. Is it physical? Genetic? Economic/cultural? Who actually bothers to look at it as a planning problem: do the megas do staff planning a generation out? Is the State, as opposed to megacorp, involvement in the tube program and orphanages significant? But why are tube children a specifically Deteis thing? Some joint project approved by the mega CEOs (presumably mostly Deteis themselves)? Were there test runs to experiment with the technology? What happened to those children? (Maybe Gesakaarin's an experimental prototype.) What normally happens to children without parents? I have glimmerings that there are some references to that in chronicles: could some of the Caldari lore experts help me out? Were State orphanages new with the tube program? (Where were they built?) Are there mega orphanages? Do you quietly and efficiently slip by the wayside if there's no one to take care of your needs? Would adoption be seen as a good thing (support your bloodline) or wasteful (not the best use of your own resources). Would the State have any reason to recognise adoption, even if it happens de facto?
Marriage is a contract, but marriage also seems to have a fair bit of cultural loading. Is serial monogamy okay? It's inefficient to have have a fertile partner bound to an infertile one, right? But if it's known that that's why you're repartnering would that mean loss of face? What are the public and private approaches to assistive reproductive technology apart from tubes? How inventive do people get, and how much gene-typing is there to work around when you're being inventive?
And always the basic question about childcare. I seem to want to explore different approaches to partnering and child-raising (communal/older-sibling/kibbutz/creche/grandparent/robot/AI-Care, etc), and I'm fairly often a little disappointed to find nuclear families, often with quite retro gender roles, turning up even in the space societies that least seem to fit them.
-- Require chronicle to be written about someone involved in the conception end of a tube program setting things up so a batch is theirs crossed with the-person-they-loved-but-couldn't-marry/everyone-they'd-ever-fancied-and-been-rejected-by. Extra points for using same-sex donors and gene splicing, in a society that Does Not Approve of same-sex relationships. Have them watch from a distance over the years. (Did Herko write this already?)
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See, I often see it more of as 'this is the way it is in the large majority of cases, but not all of them' when I see something like the tube child program description. Which is, to my way of thinking, both more probable and more useful from the point of view of things like character backgrounds.
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See, I often see it more of as 'this is the way it is in the large majority of cases, but not all of them' when I see something like the tube child program description. Which is, to my way of thinking, both more probable and more useful from the point of view of things like character backgrounds.
I try to remind myself of the "Orlanthi all" (i.e. approx. 85%). It mostly works, but sometimes the worlds that proceed from sharp-contrast interpretations and blurry-edges interpretations are hard to reconcile with each other.
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I guess I'll add some more random thoughts:
Perhaps the implementation of the tube child program was due to the fact that Deteis birth-rates were lower than that of the Civire and due to the social taboos surrounding Civire-Deteis intermarriage and to maintain population parity artificial methods were required. As to why the Deteis might have lower birth rates it could be anything really... genetic defects and infertility, Deteis couples having small families while Civire couples have large families, or disproportionate male/female ratios that means more Deteis remained single. As to why the program was phased out it could be as simple as the fact that in socially conservative society like the State with its strong emphasis on having "traditional family units" the influx of children raised outside of what would be considered "proper" might have put a lot of strain on the legitimacy of the program.
This article (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1413&tid=6) does hint at the facts that:
- Tube children would be considered wards of the State.
- The Creches are run by the Child Services Department.
- The CSD subcontracts the running of orphanages to private firms.
- The entire orphanage/creche system in the State was/is potentially abused by unscrupulous contractors.
It very well might have become an open secret in the State when some of those tube children started growing up that certain aspects of the creche system was potentially dysfunctional and would have lead to concerned parties adopting wards of the State and the eventual termination of the tube child program.
Although there might be a strong argument that other forms of communal child-care would be common in the State which might have found its root during the years of the first Gallente-Caldari war when, if every possible man and woman was needed to fight or work in factories the only options for children would have been to be raised in communal schools away from the frontlines.
Modern corporate schools in the State might borrow from that tradition where children are away from home for extended periods of time to, "Foster their sense of communal identity and corporate spirit." It would probably make it easier to indoctrinate them with the messages the Megas want them to hold as deeply held beliefs through communal systems of education and lifestyle from when they are youths.
Well in terms of backgrounds their parents were executives who wanted to have "perfect" offspring to continue their legacies and had the means and access to ensure their children had the best possible chance in life through the genome therapies the tube child program offered?
I don't think it's too far-fetched to envision the upper echelons of State society using the tube child program to "donate" their zygotes to and then "adopt" the products of the program once they are conceived. Even in the ideally egalitarian and meritocratic State there's no doubt those who might be more equal than others due to their positions and familial ties that can probably bend the rules here and there, no?
It's a tricky one, isn't it? Whatever works, and clearly you've got background there already, but it tweaked some of my "this would be an exception to the norm, piled on top of other exceptions" sensors.
Yes, it's an exception. However it was one created in what I considered to be within the bounds of plausibility and was designed with the sole intent of introducing flaws in the characters in question that I can either build upon or people should be welcome to question at their leisure. However, I do play it out the way I think a Caldari would and that is by keeping their silence and ensuring the facade of perfection and meeting the standards of the State ideal is maintained. :)
I don't know... I just like characters that have their own imperfections because it makes things interesting. I also have a tendency to just think up things on the spot, say to myself, "Hey this makes sense and might be interesting, what could possibly go wrong." Then proceed to have my vicarious amusement as everything goes wrong.
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-- Require chronicle to be written about someone involved in the conception end of a tube program setting things up so a batch is theirs crossed with the-person-they-loved-but-couldn't-marry/everyone-they'd-ever-fancied-and-been-rejected-by. Extra points for using same-sex donors and gene splicing, in a society that Does Not Approve of same-sex relationships. Have them watch from a distance over the years. (Did Herko write this already?)
I love this idea to pieces. If you don't mind me yoinking it, I may try to write a short fluff piece about it. No guarantees regarding quality, however.
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-- Require chronicle to be written about someone involved in the conception end of a tube program setting things up so a batch is theirs crossed with the-person-they-loved-but-couldn't-marry/everyone-they'd-ever-fancied-and-been-rejected-by. Extra points for using same-sex donors and gene splicing, in a society that Does Not Approve of same-sex relationships. Have them watch from a distance over the years. (Did Herko write this already?)
I love this idea to pieces. If you don't mind me yoinking it, I may try to write a short fluff piece about it. No guarantees regarding quality, however.
Go for it. I'm idly thinking of doing a version of it myself, but it's currently taking special kinds of motivation for me to finish fiction so I wouldn't want anyone to hold their breath or hold off on using an idea because of that.
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Quite possibly, although it does leave me wanting to ask the writer (and you!) what's intended by "ethnicity". Modern definitions are quite fluffy and can be entirely cultural (see the Wikipedia definition and discussion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group)).
It sounds like the Caldari State includes "Caldari", Achura, and others. The "Caldari" come in two flavours which are generally seen as having different traits, strengths, and mythic ancestries: "fast and strong" Civire from Kivire's Fuukiuye people of the east, and "Wise", "calm and deep" Deteis from Deteaas' Oryioni people of the north. The two groups are discouraged from intermarrying. They share a language, a general culture, and a myth of origin about how their peoples came together (Cold Wind (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=28-04-06)).
Well, in my experience that has been the largest issue I've seen debated in-game since "Demographics" was released. What constitutes ethnicity, why would they say that Civire and Deteis can not be seen as distinct ethnicities but then continue to describe them in those terms?
The analogy that I continue to use is regional. Despite the variety of definitions that exist for "ethnicity," I don't think anyone would use that term for distinguishing someone from Texas and someone from the north (Again, sorry for US example - but it's what I know best). Someone from Texas will generally speak differently, act differently, drive differently, and to some extent has an increased chance for adhering to different ideologies than someone from the north.
Where this analogy can fall apart however, is the widespread lack of intermarrying. That can happen in my example, but it would probably be out of annoyance for a regional habit - not some kind of principled approach. Though, I have met people who would have that principled approach, but it is rare.
Though it is entirely possible some of us are fixating on that "can not be considered..." phrase too much, and it was just incidentally phrased so concretely. Long story short, I don't know what definition of ethnicity I find the most useful or accurate - I am just trying to develop a coherent reason or function for that one explicit sentence in "Demographics."
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Well, in my experience that has been the largest issue I've seen debated in-game since "Demographics" was released. What constitutes ethnicity, why would they say that Civire and Deteis can not be seen as distinct ethnicities but then continue to describe them in those terms?
I think the article is implying that Civire and Deteis are not an ethnicity in the respect that they have separate and distinct cultures and traditions since the primary identity is, "Caldari" of which they form part of. To be Caldari is to adhere to its concepts and tenets, it is an ideal, a national identity which supersedes being Civire or Deteis, or indeed any other identity in the State.
The difficulty I think with it is that a fundamental aspect of the Caldari identity is the role the Civire and Deteis play in it historically as the people directly descended from the "Homeworld". As such it is the Deteis and Civire together that forms the Caldari identity in the State and that's what drives the social taboos against intermarriage in order to preserve what is considered their heritage and history as one people.
That is what might also drive the prejudice and stigma against mixed-blood offspring and other ethnicities in the State because unless you look like you fit either the Deteis or Civire ideals then you're also less Caldari than someone else who does.
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This (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1907) thread might be relevant. I've always thought the tube program was a result of less Deteis making it to the 'freighters' which at that time would have presumably been the same size or smaller than the Badger or Badger MKII.
Two weeks passed. More than half the Caldari population was still on the planet.
Finally, the Caldari admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba took matters into his own hands. He led the few dozen ships he commanded and jumped to Gallente Prime. ... Admiral Tovil-Toba and his crew sacrificed themselves in order for millions more Caldari to escape.
The amount of Caldari lifted off world is described as 'millions.' So my guess would be that there weren't that many Deteis to start with, and even fewer escaped onto the small cargo ships in the chaos of orbital bombardment.
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The amount of Caldari lifted off world is described as 'millions.' So my guess would be that there weren't that many Deteis to start with, and even fewer escaped onto the small cargo ships in the chaos of orbital bombardment.
Millions were evacuated after two weeks. Nearly half the population had left when Admiral Tovil-Toba began his suicide run. Millions more were evacuated, but we know that some remnants were left behind. Caldari Prime isn't the most inhabitable of planets, but it's not the only one the Caldari had either, so any numbers derived from its evacuation are only a percentage of the overall numbers.
Besides, it took them nearly two centuries to try to rectify any imbalance, and they stopped trying after less than 50. I'm not so sure this particular problem can be laid at the feet of the Fed.
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Have I really come off so anti-fed? I never could post anything about about that era without somebody saying 'it's not the Fed's fault.' I lost interest in the Gallente-Caldari dynamic six years ago and my only reason for exploring this area was as a traumatic experience that shaped modern Caldari culture. Painting the Federation with a black brush IC or even interacting with Gallente RPers in an IC setting had zero appeal to me.
As for OOC, I found Federation cannon to be dull but had no interest in casting the Gallente as bad guys - only in exploring the nature of the Caldari. I don't know why I seemed to draw such attention and ire from certain quarters. Was it because without the Caldari 'antagonists' to drive conflict there isn't anything to make Gallente RP interesting? Was there no internal drivers? Did they literally need an external source to survive, and thus latched onto anything we did as a matter of necessity?
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It seems a bit surprising to me that after all this time, there is still so little PF about one of the main ancestries for Deteis. All of these details we wonder about regarding Tube Children were being discussed and debated in much the same way years ago when I first played EVE. Is it that hard to write a Chronicle about it? Anyway, just seems weird to me.
With Jace, I've gone a fairly stereotypical route I see people go with Tubies. Created and raised until a toddler in a Wiyrkomi facility in the standard creche format. Then relocated to New Caldari Prime to be raised and educated in what is essentially a Wiyrkomi boarding school.
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Have I really come off so anti-fed?
No, and I'm not feeling any 'ire' either. But 'the bombardment of Caldari Prime explains the Deteis actions and the tube child program' does lay the ultimate cause at the feet of the Federation, and I think that's an incorrect conclusion, without really even considering your intentions, which I'm not really that concerned about.
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Have I really come off so anti-fed? I never could post anything about about that era without somebody saying 'it's not the Fed's fault.' I lost interest in the Gallente-Caldari dynamic six years ago and my only reason for exploring this area was as a traumatic experience that shaped modern Caldari culture. Painting the Federation with a black brush IC or even interacting with Gallente RPers in an IC setting had zero appeal to me.
As for OOC, I found Federation cannon to be dull but had no interest in casting the Gallente as bad guys - only in exploring the nature of the Caldari. I don't know why I seemed to draw such attention and ire from certain quarters. Was it because without the Caldari 'antagonists' to drive conflict there isn't anything to make Gallente RP interesting? Was there no internal drivers? Did they literally need an external source to survive, and thus latched onto anything we did as a matter of necessity?
A fundamental issue I noticed with Fed RP having been a part of it for an extended period is that there is a continued association with it as a parallel of modern western democracies. This caused an inability for players to disassociate their own politics and views from the fictional entity that is the Gallente Federation, to the point that it felt like people weren't engaging with what the Federation is as presented in its background but more playing, "This is basically myself and my own views but with a Gallente hat on."
The politics, culture, history and intellectual body of work surrounding the Federation have absolutely nothing to do with modern democracy, but that is a point lost on many of its participants in my view. All the other factions in Eve promote far less projection of player RL opinions upon them and a greater degree of introspection into their society than is the case with the Fed.
Gallente RP is interesting in its own right, but only when time is taken to explore its internal complexities and not just treat it as a western democracy in space with all that brings. In comparison, I've found Caldari players far more willing and able to explore the subtleties and complexities of the State that I never found in the years I played in the Fed.
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That would be why I speculated the Deteis population was small to begin with and that the problem was potentially made worse by the bombardment of Caldari prime.
As for the tone of your post; no I don't think you came across as hostile. To the contrary, you were quite reasonable, your points were valid and contributed to the discussion at hand.
However, in past discussions others have not been so pleasant to interact with.
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Dex's only offspring is a more recent Tube Child. Not necessarily the same program, but a artificial maturation, orphanage/creche program. Effectively a love child created between two young people who were entering different worlds (Lai Dai and Hyasyoda) due to family, honor, and duty.
Whether or not such a program will ever be PF, I don't know, but it was a story I wrote.
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Surely the technology is there for any of the Corporations to use as they see fit. As far as creches go, why would they not educate and socialise the tubekids in the same creches that they already use to educate the non-tubekids - since Caldari mothers don't really aspire to stay home and be broodmothers but, instead, to get back into the workforce and leave the educating and raising of the kids to professionals in the creches?
Obviously Sibkin would need to actually domicile in barracks as they have no family homes to go to, but that wouldn't be seen as being weird since non-married Caldari also reside in barracks.
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I think the biggest issue I had with this article was saying that 15% of the Caldari State's population is militarized. That's completely ridiculous, even with a very generous description of what "militarized" means. The Caldari military is entirely overhead, and even a highly militarized culture simply can't afford to maintain a military that large as a portion of its population. ~1% is usually the figure given as a "large" professional military that pushes the bounds of what a state can afford to maintain, so that figure seems off by an order of magnitude at least. It's worth noting that the the "modern" state that comes closest to that figure is...North Korea (which, if you believe them, has a 1M man army in a state of 24M people (~4%)), which is hardly the shining example of a strong economy. The United States, which spends more on its military than every other military on the planet combined, only has 1.5M (~0.5%). Even if you include police (~800,000) and private security personnel, the number is still probably less than 1% of the US population.
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Some of the difference might be down to a lot of quasi- and para- military stuff going on. The Caldari Navy is home for a lot of people who aren't what we probably would think of as 'military' - but they are probably all in there. Similarly everyone employed by the megacorp security arms.
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I think it very much depends on how broad of a brush we choose to paint "Caldari military" with.
Assuming one of the Security Corporations has everything it needs to be a functioning entity in its own right - ie the Home Guard or CN has its own mining units, R&D division, shipyards, agro-cultural systems, etc and does not contract it out, we might be able to get there.
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Some of the difference might be down to a lot of quasi- and para- military stuff going on. The Caldari Navy is home for a lot of people who aren't what we probably would think of as 'military' - but they are probably all in there. Similarly everyone employed by the megacorp security arms.
Like I said, even if you include police and private security personnel (which, like much of the Caldari military, are megacorporate operations), the number is still considerably less than 1% in the United States (let alone 15%). The problem is that the Caldari are supposed to be avaricious capitalists, albeit nationalist and militarist ones, and security forces are ONLY overhead -- they don't generate profit (unless you're subcontracting to someone else, but even then it's a sunk cost -- it doesn't generate overall profit for the Caldari State).
I could have bought 1.5% with a significant reserve, but 15% active duty personnel is pretty ridiculous. According to numbers I can find, even at its greatest extent, the Wehrmacht under Nazi Germany had fewer than 10M people under arms at a time when the population of Germany alone was ~90M (or ~11%), and that's if you ignore that much of the Wehrmacht in 1943/1944 was conscripts from occupied countries and/or men who were barely fit for duty (including teenagers and old men). The thing that pisses me off is that anyone who did the least bit of research on numbers that would make sense here would have seen that that number is just ridiculous.
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I mean, they probably count everyone who 'belongs to' one of the corporate security arms, the navy, or a traditional PMC. All of those probably engage in a lot of activities other than warfighting, though - and they all have a lot of what would in RL would be considered 'civilian' staff who probably are instead considered part of the military just by virtue of who employs them.
If we start with almost everyone in the State being part of a Mega, I could see 15% each one's employees - or maybe a little less - being part of that Mega's 'military' arm (with the majority being in non-combat roles, obviously). They are not, I think, only militaries, in the traditional sense. They have entire (quite large) stations, and one suspects the other trappings of large State corporations, ie they act as the government for large swaths of the population - and all those people are probably counted toward the 15%
Also, there is probably some kind of very extensive 'reserve' program.
I'm not arguing it isn't a very high number, or that the State realistically has that many people directly engaged in military activity. If you broaden the scope of what they are talking about, though, it can make a little more sense.
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I mean, they probably count everyone who 'belongs to' one of the corporate security arms, the navy, or a traditional PMC. All of those probably engage in a lot of activities other than warfighting, though - and they all have a lot of what would in RL would be considered 'civilian' staff who probably are instead considered part of the military just by virtue of who employs them.
If we start with almost everyone in the State being part of a Mega, I could see 15% each one's employees - or maybe a little less - being part of that Mega's 'military' arm (with the majority being in non-combat roles, obviously). They are not, I think, only militaries, in the traditional sense. They have entire (quite large) stations, and one suspects the other trappings of large State corporations, ie they act as the government for large swaths of the population - and all those people are probably counted toward the 15%
Also, there is probably some kind of very extensive 'reserve' program.
I'm not arguing it isn't a very high number, or that the State realistically has that many people directly engaged in military activity. If you broaden the scope of what they are talking about, though, it can make a little more sense.
Even if you include all those people though, the number is still ridiculously off. And if you include everyone in the military-industrial complex (which might get you close to that number, I suppose), it doesn't make much sense to call an assembly line worker at a Lockheed plant a "soldier". And the definition given in the article is:
Enlisted military personnel make up a massive 15% of the State’s citizenry, the largest ratio of any empire. Anyone employed full-time by the Caldari Navy, Army, or any of the eight corporate forces, are accounted for in this figure.
So that seems to indicate to me that that is actual military/security personnel, not factory workers. And if you include reservists, that number is still ludicrously high. The US has 1.5M reservists in addition to its 1.5M active duty personnel -- North Korea claims to have 8M, but can barely afford to equip its supposed 1M active duty military, so that number is a little suspect. And, it's worth noting that despite the fact that the US military is positively tiny relative to the claimed size of the Caldari military, there's serious concerns that the sheer expense of maintaining our military is one of the biggest drains on our economy as a whole. For a state where efficiency and profitability are paramount concerns, dumping a huge amount of money into maintaining a military of insane size does not seem like a particularly characteristic move.
I'll also point out that the number of US active duty personnel includes things like logistics personnel, military police, and other non-frontline combat troops already. The US Department of Defense webpage says they have 450,000 employees, but I don't know how many of those are military and how many are civilian.
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Some of the difference might be down to a lot of quasi- and para- military stuff going on. The Caldari Navy is home for a lot of people who aren't what we probably would think of as 'military' - but they are probably all in there. Similarly everyone employed by the megacorp security arms.
Like I said, even if you include police and private security personnel (which, like much of the Caldari military, are megacorporate operations), the number is still considerably less than 1% in the United States (let alone 15%). The problem is that the Caldari are supposed to be avaricious capitalists, albeit nationalist and militarist ones, and security forces are ONLY overhead -- they don't generate profit (unless you're subcontracting to someone else, but even then it's a sunk cost -- it doesn't generate overall profit for the Caldari State).
I could have bought 1.5% with a significant reserve, but 15% active duty personnel is pretty ridiculous. According to numbers I can find, even at its greatest extent, the Wehrmacht under Nazi Germany had fewer than 10M people under arms at a time when the population of Germany alone was ~90M (or ~11%), and that's if you ignore that much of the Wehrmacht in 1943/1944 was conscripts from occupied countries and/or men who were barely fit for duty (including teenagers and old men). The thing that pisses me off is that anyone who did the least bit of research on numbers that would make sense here would have seen that that number is just ridiculous.
Ehm. Die Wehrmacht had more around ~18M active soldiers on maximum here (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmacht) and here (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmacht#Truppenst.C3.A4rke_und_Gliederung).
+600k "Hilfswillige, unter anderem Soldaten der Roten Armee und ethnische Minderheiten in der Sowjetunion" Auxiliary volunteers, including Red Army soldiers and ethnic minorities in the Soviet Union. Which were directly under the control of the Wehrmacht.
+594k maximum for the Waffen-SS (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS), with Volksdeutsche and Auxiliary volunteers.
+150k around, count for members the Sicherheitspolizei (Sipo) – bestehend aus Geheimer Staats- (Gestapo) und Kriminalpolizei (Kripo) –, des Sicherheitsdienstes (SD), der Ordnungspolizei (Orpo) etc.. also counting again with auxiliary volunteers, like Algirdas Klimaitis etc.
+100-500 ad hoc units like Sonderkommandos which had done some police work and some other shit. but the were short living, most with just one purpose and mostly made out personal with no fighting value (former Russian criminals etc..)
So in total around 19.5M by a population in 1939 (with Austria, Bohemia, Memelland etc.. (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksz%C3%A4hlung_im_Deutschen_Reich_1939)) 79.525M, which gives us around 24%
But now a huge but. The problem as Svetlana rightfully mention in this numbers are also Volksdeutsche and auxiliary troops etc.... Secondly which is more important, that Germany had during that time the resources of whole Europe. As some french historians rightfully mention, they have pay for the German army and its campaigns. So two elements which the Caldari dont have. So I think, as well as Svetlana that the US or maybe the imperial Germany would be better examples. During the first world war had imperial Germany around 13M troops (counting navy and army) by a population of 67,5M. And that was already the maximum on possibilities, as Germany was collapsing for sure after 4 years (economically and socially). Which gives us around 19%. So, I dont think 15% is realistic too. I dont think that the Caladri would have such along breath. As already mention, ships are capital intensive and when you think how up to date the Caldari hold there fleet; you would count that most likely their navy is the most capital intensive in New Eden. And not forget, the lost man power (labour); as well as already mention, that they are dead investment (about: sunk costs. They are past cost, which cannot be recovered. They also shouldnt be part of a decision as its distort a cost-benifit analysis etc...). So back to the topic.
So, YES! I SECOND, that the number is way to high.
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Ehm. Die Wehrmacht had more around ~18M active soldiers on maximum here (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmacht) and here (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmacht#Truppenst.C3.A4rke_und_Gliederung).
+600k "Hilfswillige, unter anderem Soldaten der Roten Armee und ethnische Minderheiten in der Sowjetunion" Auxiliary volunteers, including Red Army soldiers and ethnic minorities in the Soviet Union. Which were directly under the control of the Wehrmacht.
+594k maximum for the Waffen-SS (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS), with Volksdeutsche and Auxiliary volunteers.
+150k around, count for members the Sicherheitspolizei (Sipo) – bestehend aus Geheimer Staats- (Gestapo) und Kriminalpolizei (Kripo) –, des Sicherheitsdienstes (SD), der Ordnungspolizei (Orpo) etc.. also counting again with auxiliary volunteers, like Algirdas Klimaitis etc.
+100-500 ad hoc units like Sonderkommandos which had done some police work and some other shit. but the were short living, most with just one purpose and mostly made out personal with no fighting value (former Russian criminals etc..)
You'll note that that article says the Wehrmacht drafted 19M people into service...but also specifically states that the number of personnel on active duty was far less. This page (http://www.feldgrau.com/stats.html) appears to have a better breakdown of the numbers, and you'll notice that it says ~18M is the total number of people who served in the Wehrmacht at any time -- the highest number they give for any particular year is considerably less (~12M). The source I originally looked at put the number at ~9M, but I can't find it now. It's also worth noting that at the time of the outbreak of the war it was ~2M, and the height of its numbers was during the most desperate part of the war when they were throwing anything they could into the meat grinder. Whatever you want to call factional warfare, it definitely isn't a knock-down, drag-out battle for the very survival of the Caldari State; it's a limited war at best.
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Ehm. Die Wehrmacht had more around ~18M active soldiers on maximum here (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmacht) and here (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmacht#Truppenst.C3.A4rke_und_Gliederung).
+600k "Hilfswillige, unter anderem Soldaten der Roten Armee und ethnische Minderheiten in der Sowjetunion" Auxiliary volunteers, including Red Army soldiers and ethnic minorities in the Soviet Union. Which were directly under the control of the Wehrmacht.
+594k maximum for the Waffen-SS (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS), with Volksdeutsche and Auxiliary volunteers.
+150k around, count for members the Sicherheitspolizei (Sipo) – bestehend aus Geheimer Staats- (Gestapo) und Kriminalpolizei (Kripo) –, des Sicherheitsdienstes (SD), der Ordnungspolizei (Orpo) etc.. also counting again with auxiliary volunteers, like Algirdas Klimaitis etc.
+100-500 ad hoc units like Sonderkommandos which had done some police work and some other shit. but the were short living, most with just one purpose and mostly made out personal with no fighting value (former Russian criminals etc..)
You'll note that that article says the Wehrmacht drafted 19M people into service...but also specifically states that the number of personnel on active duty was far less. This page (http://www.feldgrau.com/stats.html) appears to have a better breakdown of the numbers, and you'll notice that it says ~18M is the total number of people who served in the Wehrmacht at any time -- the highest number they give for any particular year is considerably less (~12M). The source I originally looked at put the number at ~9M, but I can't find it now. It's also worth noting that at the time of the outbreak of the war it was ~2M, and the height of its numbers was during the most desperate part of the war when they were throwing anything they could into the meat grinder. Whatever you want to call factional warfare, it definitely isn't a knock-down, drag-out battle for the very survival of the Caldari State; it's a limited war at best.
True. I agree. And I would also add to my comment before, that Germany had bust/back up their economy with a huge amount of Zwangsarbeiter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labour_under_German_rule_during_World_War_II). So you can add, that they had the capital and labor of almost whole Europe. Something what the Caldari dont have. And of course all the other points, as mention before.
About: "Whatever you want to call factional warfare, it definitely isn't a knock-down, drag-out battle for the very survival of the Caldari State; it's a limited war at best." I agree.
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Anyone employed full-time by the Caldari Navy, Army, or any of the eight corporate forces, are accounted for in this figure.
It does, explicitly, include people like factory workers, administrators, etc.
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there's serious concerns that the sheer expense of maintaining [the US] military is one of the biggest drains on our economy as a whole.
Uh, this statement is ... I can't find a good word.
The expense of maintaining the US military is a major drain on the US Federal Budget (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget)/spending (a bit more than 50% of discretionary spending, 19% of the total). It also comes in at 4.7% of the Nation's GDP.
Discretionary spending makes up 36% of Federal spending. If you cut Discretionary spending in its entirety, the Federal government would still be deficit spending for the first year and you would have added anyone being paid by that Discretionary spending to the unemployment pool.
Now, the above having been said, a decade of deficit spending to include two nation-building projects (going beyond just military spending) puts strain on the economy government spending. Taxes were decreased during the time period reducing overall government negative impact on the economy, in theory. Less than 1% of the nation's workforce serves in the military thus no real impact on the available workforce.
Then I would look at a comparison of tax revenue as a percentage of GDP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP) - where plenty of low-military spending as a % of GDP countries are taxing the sum of their GDP much higher than the US.
So, uh ya... I think that argument is flawed for a variety of reasons.
I'll also point out that the number of US active duty personnel includes things like logistics personnel, military police, and other non-frontline combat troops already. The US Department of Defense webpage says they have 450,000 employees, but I don't know how many of those are military and how many are civilian.
Personal in Service (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forces#Personnel_in_each_service)
Anyone employed full-time by the Caldari Navy, Army, or any of the eight corporate forces, are accounted for in this figure.
It does, explicitly, include people like factory workers, administrators, etc.
everyone in the military-industrial complex (which might get you close to that number, I suppose), it doesn't make much sense to call an assembly line worker at a Lockheed plant a "soldier".
The LockMart, Boeing, Northrup Grummann, Raytheon employees or at least their place of business (the plant) is a legal target under the Geneva Convention.
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I wasn't trying to say that the military is the reason the US economy has trouble, but it's the third largest single expense for the US government, and it is essentially a giant government jobs program when it comes to the economy. Other countries certainly tax their population more, but on the other hand, the range of government services provided in most of those countries is considerably more extensive than in the United States.
The LockMart, Boeing, Northrup Grummann, Raytheon employees or at least their place of business (the plant) is a legal target under the Geneva Convention.
Yes, but no one would call them "soldiers"; those factory workers aren't enlisted personnel. And Silver Night, it says it includes everyone employed by the Navy or corporate security forces -- I don't see how you get "factory workers" from that. Boeing employees don't work for the military. I never said it didn't include administrative personnel.
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I wasn't trying to say that the military is the reason the US economy has trouble, but it's the third largest single expense for the US government, and it is essentially a giant government jobs program when it comes to the economy. Other countries certainly tax their population more, but on the other hand, the range of government services provided in most of those countries is considerably more extensive than in the United States.
The LockMart, Boeing, Northrup Grummann, Raytheon employees or at least their place of business (the plant) is a legal target under the Geneva Convention.
Yes, but no one would call them "soldiers"; those factory workers aren't enlisted personnel. And Silver Night, it says it includes everyone employed by the Navy or corporate security forces -- I don't see how you get "factory workers" from that. Boeing employees don't work for the military. I never said it didn't include administrative personnel.
To easy down this question. The US has a population of 315M, which means by caldari standards that around 47M would be in coastal, local, federal and military service etc.... I dont think we will find that number. So even counting everything, administration, workers etc... I dont think it will sum up to this large number. So to mild down the discussion between dex and Svetlanam, the question isnt how much the US has, if 1.5%,1.9% or 2.3% etc... The question is: Are 15% reasonable number*?
Edit: *For a nation which doesnt fight to survive; as already mention before.
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...and it appears someone (guessing CCP Eterne based on his tweet) changed the percentage to 5%, which is probably still too high, but not quite as ridiculous.
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No need to guess, it's right there in the page history. Hurrah for wikitech!
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And actually, 5% probably isn't that ridiculous if you assume it includes reserves (which the Caldari probably have tons of), merchant marine, things like the Caldari equivalents of the CIA, CDC, National Labs, Veterans Affairs which are probably just folded into the security corps and the Navy. I can justify it, at least, which was pretty hard with the 15% number.
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I rather assumed the high % of citizens under arms was similar to the Chinese model, where many (if not most) nominal "soldiers" are actually factory workers or such, as has been mentioned above.
Which would make sense in the hyper-competitive State. I doubt the rest of the Megas would want the Caldari Navy dependent on, say, Suvee produced ammunition or what have you. They would likely feel more comfortable supporting as politically, economically, and industrially independent State military as possible. That means a lot of "soldiers" doing jobs that would conventionally done by civilians.
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Actually, I suspect the megas WANT the Navy dependent on the megacorps as much as possible. There's no way in hell they want to let them get the ability to operate independently.
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In addition, a Navy contract represents a lot of money from across the State flowing into your corporation. Building a squadron battleships represents billions of isk from competitors.
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And actually, 5% probably isn't that ridiculous if you assume it includes reserves (which the Caldari probably have tons of), merchant marine, things like the Caldari equivalents of the CIA, CDC, National Labs, Veterans Affairs which are probably just folded into the security corps and the Navy. I can justify it, at least, which was pretty hard with the 15% number.
This. Add in all the uniformed services to that, too, as they are all paramilitary organisations.