Backstage - OOC Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

That some Minmatar pilots have a tradition of gifting Rodj Blake's corpse to newly-weds?

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 9

Author Topic: Feedback: EVE: Source  (Read 15858 times)

Nicoletta Mithra

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1049
Re: Feedback: EVE: Source
« Reply #45 on: 27 Mar 2014, 17:10 »

I was especially glad to see it firmly stated that the 'True Amarr are the Chosen by culture and Scripture', as it's always been the case but was largely left out of the recent EVElopedia articles despite the fact being such an essential part of the culture.

I'd beg to differ: While it's true that the Amarr were always portrayed as being ethnocentric to the degree of culturally established view True Amarr as superior by race, there has been a lot of nuance in that showing how there were degrees in that between Sabik sects that believed that Amarr were born with spores on their heels and everyone else with saddles on their back, while Amarr orthodoxy was theologically more a sophisticated ethnocentrism, which found it's expression in the folklore simplified to racism.

Scripture - as far as the snippets we have go - never really pointed at a racist teaching of True Amarr superiority either, rather it was giving quite some room of interpretation from an ethocentrism of Amarr as choosen people up to a more ethiccentered view of stressing righteous life in fear of God as the important part.

EVE: Source dumbed that down to a teaching of racial superiority that is supposedly culturally as well as Scripturally anchored and which conflicts actually with a lot of what has been established about the Sabik vs Amarr Orthodoxy distinction. It is taking dimensionality out of the Amarr culture and reduces the shades of grey for the dubious gain of 'clarity'.

To me, that is a bad move, though I see how people who were interpreting PF so far as Amarr being simply racist feel vindicated by it.
Logged

Publius Valerius

  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 104
Re: Feedback: EVE: Source
« Reply #46 on: 27 Mar 2014, 17:17 »

I didn't see anything out of place with the stuff I've already read, save the one thing Nico pointed out in the other thread. I was especially glad to see it firmly stated that the 'True Amarr are the Chosen by culture and Scripture', as it's always been the case but was largely left out of the recent EVElopedia articles despite the fact being such an essential part of the culture.

They do go into slaves-should-not-be-treated-overly-poorly, but that's primarily detailed in the Amarr and Minmatar short stories rather than the Amarr chapter text (which mostly just repeats and summarizes everything on EVElopedia already).

I would have liked to see more on the religious rituals and daily culture in the Amarr chapter, and the Minmatar chapter. The Amarr short story did give us some stuff in that regard, at least.

I think the thing I dislike the most is the requirement of capsuleers being super physically fit. DUSTies are the physical ones, we're supposed to be the brains-in-machines.


Overall, I think the big problem with Source was really that it was trying to do too much in one book. I'd really like to see individual source books for each empire, rather than trying to scrunch everything into one book. Page space requirements heavily limit how much detail is available. Caldari for example get a ton of cultural stuff because they have only a page of history. Amarr have very little because so much of their pages are reserved for the history. Minmatar have less info about Republic culture because having so many tribes and Minmatar outside the Republic necessitated a lot of space on that.

I overall agree. I think also more then one book would be better. Maybe, a general book (the universe, cloning, pods, dust, etc...), and a second one about all the factions would be great. :D As for the "racism part on the Amarr", as mention on another thread; I just need to rethink my char and make some adjustments towards, that actually racism is the paradigm (and not religion).


New Vid is out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jthyWHPmTCs




I was especially glad to see it firmly stated that the 'True Amarr are the Chosen by culture and Scripture', as it's always been the case but was largely left out of the recent EVElopedia articles despite the fact being such an essential part of the culture.

I'd beg to differ: While it's true that the Amarr were always portrayed as being ethnocentric to the degree of culturally established view True Amarr as superior by race, there has been a lot of nuance in that showing how there were degrees in that between Sabik sects that believed that Amarr were born with spores on their heels and everyone else with saddles on their back, while Amarr orthodoxy was theologically more a sophisticated ethnocentrism, which found it's expression in the folklore simplified to racism.

Scripture - as far as the snippets we have go - never really pointed at a racist teaching of True Amarr superiority either, rather it was giving quite some room of interpretation from an ethocentrism of Amarr as choosen people up to a more ethiccentered view of stressing righteous life in fear of God as the important part.

EVE: Source dumbed that down to a teaching of racial superiority that is supposedly culturally as well as Scripturally anchored and which conflicts actually with a lot of what has been established about the Sabik vs Amarr Orthodoxy distinction. It is taking dimensionality out of the Amarr culture and reduces the shades of grey for the dubious gain of 'clarity'.

To me, that is a bad move, though I see how people who were interpreting PF so far as Amarr being simply racist feel vindicated by it.

I agree, but the source tells otherwise. And truth be told, most people want it that way so the majority has spoken (sometimes we as opposition has to face reality). I could make 100 threads and explain why racism as primer wouldnt really work, and that it was a bad idea from TonyG to set a paradigm about a faction (instate of having people speak. Example I had racist individuals in my latest wiki page, but without setting a "gallente are racist" paradigm. Even if many people in the "OOC channel" would see me to go further.) True be told, most people want to play their amarr char with a racist paradigm aka as "southern slaver" (I could send as example some old hate-mails*** I got because of some stuff I wrote in the pedia  :D How I would destroy RP and the Amarr etc....). The latter "movement" comes out of mix: "Dude, I dont want to think or read" plus the love to a "hypersytilze version of something we know".


*** The best mails were those which actually "try" to be nice  :D... And I say "try" as it actually was more or less: "Meh. I like your stuff, but actually yeah bro, I could do better." Of course just in a longer version and without giving any valid input or a critique which I could work in. Truthfully more or less a mail; that Im okay, but they are awesome and I should know that.... :D

_________

But back to the topic. What do people think that the State has the least population, but the second biggest navy?
« Last Edit: 27 Mar 2014, 17:39 by Publius Valerius »
Logged

Samira Kernher

  • Soulless Puppet
  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • Ardishapur Victor
Re: Feedback: EVE: Source
« Reply #47 on: 27 Mar 2014, 18:32 »

I was especially glad to see it firmly stated that the 'True Amarr are the Chosen by culture and Scripture', as it's always been the case but was largely left out of the recent EVElopedia articles despite the fact being such an essential part of the culture.

I'd beg to differ: While it's true that the Amarr were always portrayed as being ethnocentric to the degree of culturally established view True Amarr as superior by race, there has been a lot of nuance in that showing how there were degrees in that between Sabik sects that believed that Amarr were born with spores on their heels and everyone else with saddles on their back, while Amarr orthodoxy was theologically more a sophisticated ethnocentrism, which found it's expression in the folklore simplified to racism.

Scripture - as far as the snippets we have go - never really pointed at a racist teaching of True Amarr superiority either, rather it was giving quite some room of interpretation from an ethocentrism of Amarr as choosen people up to a more ethiccentered view of stressing righteous life in fear of God as the important part.

EVE: Source dumbed that down to a teaching of racial superiority that is supposedly culturally as well as Scripturally anchored and which conflicts actually with a lot of what has been established about the Sabik vs Amarr Orthodoxy distinction. It is taking dimensionality out of the Amarr culture and reduces the shades of grey for the dubious gain of 'clarity'.

To me, that is a bad move, though I see how people who were interpreting PF so far as Amarr being simply racist feel vindicated by it.

It's always been there. Source just spells it out.

[spoiler]
Quote
While the champion himself must be of pure Amarrian descent, his wingmen are said to be allowed to be of any race and bloodline.

http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=171&tid=4&_ga=1.39545891.1867853888.1395525975

Quote
The arrest is said to come after the journalist interrupted a scripted press event with questions regarding a debated decision by the Amarr Imperial Succession Committee of allowing pilots of other races than Amarr to assist the "pure blooded" Amarrian champions in their upcoming combat duels.

http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=174&tid=4&_ga=1.7881650.1867853888.1395525975

Quote
Uriam Kador, head of the Kador family, has intensified the ongoing debate surrounding Catiz Tash-Murkon's acquisition of the Tal-Romon Cathedral on Eclipticum by questioning the heir status of the Tash-Murkon family. The Tash-Murkons replaced the Khanid family when the latter broke from the Empire following Heideran's election as emperor. The nomination came as a surprise to most, not the least because the Tash-Murkons were Udorians, and thus not of pure Amarrian ancestry.

http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=369&tid=4&_ga=1.62139564.1867853888.1395525975

Quote
"We should look to true Amarrians, the chosen people of God, barren of the impurities of their spacebound kin."

http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1404&tid=4&_ga=1.73033619.1867853888.1395525975

Quote
"House Sarum feels that the past open doors policy of ascension was patently ridiculous. We cannot and should not allow anyone but true Amarrians to decide the future of our glorious empire. It's no wonder that the last two chosen Emperors were such weaklings?"

http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1409&tid=4&_ga=1.73033619.1867853888.1395525975

Quote
"While we acknowledge and respect the views of the other Royal Houses, [the Tash-Murkon] Royal House is strongly against the racial implications of allowing only True Amarr to decide the next championship.

The Empire was forged in our collective blood. We worship the one and only Lord God. It is by all our strengths that the Empire was made great, and it will be by all our strengths that it shall continue."

With the only Royal House yet to make its views known on the subject the Amarr News Service managed to arrange a short sitting with Yonis Ardishapur himself shortly after a meeting with Chamberlain Karsoth.

"The Lord God saw fit to create only one race of his Chosen. We are that race. While the lesser races follow God's word faithfully and loyally, as well they should, and while they have their place within the Empire, it is not for them to rise above their station. Decisions of this importance should be left to God's true Chosen, and none other."

http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1425&tid=4&_ga=1.229778204.1867853888.1395525975

Quote
The majority of the criticism comes from Tanar's outspoken views on the purity of Amarrian heritage and the inferiority of those of non-pure Amarrian blood.

Tanar has been the center of criticism before, most recently three years ago when he gave a lecture entitled "Scriptural Evidence Supporting the Continuing Servitude of Udorians, Ealurians, Khanid, Ni-Kunni, and Minmatar." The lecture advocated a stripping of title and privilege from all citizens of the Empire who were not of pure True Amarrian ancestry, including reducing the royal Tash-Murkon Family to the status of commoners. The backlash generated by Udorian, Khanid, and liberal Amarrian Holders, in addition to threats of funding withdrawal from numerous wealthy non-True Amarrian merchants, resulted in Tanar receiving a year's suspension with pay from the Institute.

http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2582&tid=2&_ga=1.236668801.1867853888.1395525975

Quote
"My word lies within all,
All it requires is the breath of faith,
To ignite the fire,
So the lost can find their way,
So the fallen can rise,
To take their place as my chosen,
For you are all my creation,
And are all equal in my kingdom."
-The Apocryphon

"These texts are considered heretical by the Amarr clergy and anyone found preaching or distributing them is persecuted relentlessly."

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Apocryphon
[/spoiler]

What splits Amarr from Sabik is that with the Amarr only the True Amarr are Chosen (with the exception of the big controversy to claim that Khameiras are also Chosen), while in the Sabik faith anyone can theoretically become Chosen ("Savant"). That anyone can become Chosen by faith in God is the one piece of Sabik Scripture we have, and this is a Scripture that is deemed heretical by orthodox Amarrian faith. Sure, there's no orthodox Scripture we have that outright says 'only the True Amarr are Chosen', so there is a bit of leeway on player interpretation, but when there is a Scripture that says "anyone can become Chosen by being faithful" and that this Scripture is deemed heretical, that says quite a lot to me.

Source doesn't stop characters from having the other interpretation ICly and arguing for that view, because at least from the Scriptures we have available it is possible to argue for that interpretation ICly. All that Source does is just reinforces canon that has already been there that the traditional belief is that only the True Amarr are God's Chosen, thus confirming that other interpretations are an atypical belief (which can be considered either simply liberal or heretical depending on character viewpoints).
« Last Edit: 27 Mar 2014, 18:36 by Samira Kernher »
Logged

Vincent Pryce

  • Guest
Re: Feedback: EVE: Source
« Reply #48 on: 27 Mar 2014, 18:34 »

They always had the most advanced, which did make sense and it was also their trump card why people didn't fuck with them... But now second largest too with the least amount of people? I am not gonna even bother taking EVE fiction revamps seriously anymore :lol:

Super Special State Sentai Princess Brigade, ho!

Logged

Samira Kernher

  • Soulless Puppet
  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • Ardishapur Victor
Re: Feedback: EVE: Source
« Reply #49 on: 27 Mar 2014, 18:47 »

... the state don't have the second largest navy. They have the smallest, but the most technologically advanced and with a higher ratio of battleships.

You're misreading Falcon's post. That list was about general capability, not size. The State has the second strongest navy, not the second largest.
Logged

V. Gesakaarin

  • Guest
Re: Feedback: EVE: Source
« Reply #50 on: 27 Mar 2014, 18:55 »


Super Special State Sentai Princess Brigade, ho!



Only true in haiku.

But back to the topic. What do people think that the State has the least population, but the second biggest navy?

Probably because it's always been portrayed as a highly militarized society that believes everyone non-Caldari presents a potential existential threat to the continued survival of the State? That kind of thinking is probably why KK, Lai Dai, and Wiyrkomi are all heavily involved in domestic military industries.
Logged

Publius Valerius

  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 104
Re: Feedback: EVE: Source
« Reply #51 on: 27 Mar 2014, 18:58 »

They always had the most advanced, which did make sense and it was also their trump card why people didn't fuck with them... But now second largest too with the least amount of people? I am not gonna even bother taking EVE fiction revamps seriously anymore :lol:

Super Special State Sentai Princess Brigade, ho!


:D

Yeah I agree, with both points. For me the most technological advance fleet, was also a trump card. The navy with the newest shenanigans, always up to date. Which makes it the most capital-intensive in New Eden, but also a fearsome fleet (even for its small size. Or that what I though before.). As you said "people didn't fuck with them"; as they have "the modern of the modern" stuff. :D

As for the changes, I agree. But I also dont see it negative, maybe it will bring more people. As well as with the notion you imply with "seriously", I see it the same way.


... the state don't have the second largest navy. They have the smallest, but the most technologically advanced and with a higher ratio of battleships.

You're misreading Falcon's post. That list was about general capability, not size. The State has the second strongest navy, not the second largest.

Actually you can read it both ways. As well as that he doesnt mention that they are the smallest either.



Super Special State Sentai Princess Brigade, ho!



Only true in haiku.

But back to the topic. What do people think that the State has the least population, but the second biggest navy?

Probably because it's always been portrayed as a highly militarized society that believes everyone non-Caldari presents a potential existential threat to the continued survival of the State? That kind of thinking is probably why KK, Lai Dai, and Wiyrkomi are all heavily involved in domestic military industries.
Maybe. And the ships have a higher crew ratio then the gallente. Meaning, that it is most likely the case of capital intensive plus labor intensive. So no substitution (which I have no problem with).

It would also explain Falcons idea about the caldari could "fuck everybody". As I can thing such a navy could be really fearsome.

Edit:
Fix some typos.
« Last Edit: 27 Mar 2014, 19:09 by Publius Valerius »
Logged

Nicoletta Mithra

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1049
Re: Feedback: EVE: Source
« Reply #52 on: 27 Mar 2014, 19:13 »

I don't ant to get into a quotation war with you, but a lot of the ones you produced there already make my point: There was by the PF a variety of different approaches possible. At least in the Tash-Murkon domains racism seems to be shunned quite blatantly. The comment of Heir Kador in regard to true Amarr was in distinction to spacebound 'kin' which means capsuleers even if of True Amarr race: This can't mean that true Amarr are seen as racially superior. The Superiority of the Amarr was never really predicated on racial superiority, but on being the race choosen by God. This choice isn't (or rather wasn't) thought of as binding God in any way: True Amarr can be stricken from the book of records and they loose their superiority with that. For example there is (or was?) no good reason for anyone to bow to a True Amarr heretic, simply because of his or her ancestry. If anything they were even considered worse than anyone else, for rejecting God even though he favoured them.

Also, there is still Scripture which says that everyone can be chosen by God:
"All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all;
When thine heart shines with the Light, thou shalt know no hardship;
When thine actions are in Light's name, thou art immortal."
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:1

I don't deny that it was already established as a widespread belief that Amarr are racially superior, but there always were other established schools of thought in Amarr which were carried by Ni-Kunni and Khanid holders, liberal Holders all over the Empire, rich merchants and most prominently by the Tash-Murkon family which apparently has little problems with keeping their position despite the jabs of the traditionally-minded houses.

EVE: Source in it's simplicity puts away with non-racism as an established school of thinking in Amarr. It might have been (slightly) atypical, but influential enough to put even Ardishapur under enough pressure to suspend his pet. It certainly wasn't the fringe position it has been degraded to by Source.
« Last Edit: 27 Mar 2014, 19:34 by Nicoletta Mithra »
Logged

Esna Pitoojee

  • Keeper of the Harem
  • Demigod
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2095
Re: Feedback: EVE: Source
« Reply #53 on: 27 Mar 2014, 19:14 »

The quotes do not say that racism is so inherently ingrained that every Amarr is a total racist, and nobody believes that other bloodlines can eventually become Chosen.

Breaking it down quote-by-quote:


Quote
While the champion himself must be of pure Amarrian descent, his wingmen are said to be allowed to be of any race and bloodline.

http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=171&tid=4&_ga=1.39545891.1867853888.1395525975

True Amarr lead because they were first chosen, but others can achieve glory and recognition by opting to aid the faithful as well. This is little different from the situations of the Eudorians, Khanid, and Ni-Kunni (all of which are not strictly speaking True Amarr, but are at current varying distances along the path to becoming Chosen).

Quote
The arrest is said to come after the journalist interrupted a scripted press event with questions regarding a debated decision by the Amarr Imperial Succession Committee of allowing pilots of other races than Amarr to assist the "pure blooded" Amarrian champions in their upcoming combat duels.

http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=174&tid=4&_ga=1.7881650.1867853888.1395525975

And some people don't like this. Nobody said that no one in the Empire was racist.

Quote
Uriam Kador, head of the Kador family, has intensified the ongoing debate surrounding Catiz Tash-Murkon's acquisition of the Tal-Romon Cathedral on Eclipticum by questioning the heir status of the Tash-Murkon family. The Tash-Murkons replaced the Khanid family when the latter broke from the Empire following Heideran's election as emperor. The nomination came as a surprise to most, not the least because the Tash-Murkons were Udorians, and thus not of pure Amarrian ancestry.

http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=369&tid=4&_ga=1.62139564.1867853888.1395525975

Again, nobody was saying that nobody in the Empire had a purely ethnocentric view. The Kador are an explicitly traditionalist house who would be extremely likely to hold such views; again, this is no surprise to anyone.

Quote
"We should look to true Amarrians, the chosen people of God, barren of the impurities of their spacebound kin."

http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1404&tid=4&_ga=1.73033619.1867853888.1395525975

As before - the conservative traditionalist espouses ethnocentric views. No surprise there.

Quote
"House Sarum feels that the past open doors policy of ascension was patently ridiculous. We cannot and should not allow anyone but true Amarrians to decide the future of our glorious empire. It's no wonder that the last two chosen Emperors were such weaklings?"

http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1409&tid=4&_ga=1.73033619.1867853888.1395525975

And the conservative militant house as well.

Quote
"While we acknowledge and respect the views of the other Royal Houses, [the Tash-Murkon] Royal House is strongly against the racial implications of allowing only True Amarr to decide the next championship.

The Empire was forged in our collective blood. We worship the one and only Lord God. It is by all our strengths that the Empire was made great, and it will be by all our strengths that it shall continue."

With the only Royal House yet to make its views known on the subject the Amarr News Service managed to arrange a short sitting with Yonis Ardishapur himself shortly after a meeting with Chamberlain Karsoth.

"The Lord God saw fit to create only one race of his Chosen. We are that race. While the lesser races follow God's word faithfully and loyally, as well they should, and while they have their place within the Empire, it is not for them to rise above their station. Decisions of this importance should be left to God's true Chosen, and none other."

http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1425&tid=4&_ga=1.229778204.1867853888.1395525975

Again, the conservatives are more likely to be ethnocentric - no surprise there. Right above, however, the Tash-Murkons say that "The Empire was forged in our collective blood. We worship the one and only Lord God. It is by all our strengths that the Empire was made great, and it will be by all our strengths that it shall continue." Ethnocentrism is clearly not a universally-applied, totally homogenous rule in the faith; if it were, the Murkons' words would be heresy.

Quote
The majority of the criticism comes from Tanar's outspoken views on the purity of Amarrian heritage and the inferiority of those of non-pure Amarrian blood.

Tanar has been the center of criticism before, most recently three years ago when he gave a lecture entitled "Scriptural Evidence Supporting the Continuing Servitude of Udorians, Ealurians, Khanid, Ni-Kunni, and Minmatar." The lecture advocated a stripping of title and privilege from all citizens of the Empire who were not of pure True Amarrian ancestry, including reducing the royal Tash-Murkon Family to the status of commoners. The backlash generated by Udorian, Khanid, and liberal Amarrian Holders, in addition to threats of funding withdrawal from numerous wealthy non-True Amarrian merchants, resulted in Tanar receiving a year's suspension with pay from the Institute.

http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2582&tid=2&_ga=1.236668801.1867853888.1395525975

And here it's even outright said - pure ethnocentrism/racism exists among the more conservative factions, but is highly controversial and not at all universally accepted in the Empire. If True Amarr being forever the only Chosen was codified in the scriptures, the controversy in the quote would not be occurring.

Quote
"My word lies within all,
All it requires is the breath of faith,
To ignite the fire,
So the lost can find their way,
So the fallen can rise,
To take their place as my chosen,
For you are all my creation,
And are all equal in my kingdom."
-The Apocryphon

"These texts are considered heretical by the Amarr clergy and anyone found preaching or distributing them is persecuted relentlessly."

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Apocryphon

Saying all are inherently equal is heretical. Big surprise - nobody's ever tried to claim the Amarr orthodoxy did not practice any kind of discrimination.


Quote from: Samira Kernher
What splits Amarr from Sabik is that with the Amarr only the True Amarr are Chosen (with the exception of the big controversy to claim that Khameiras are also Chosen), while in the Sabik faith anyone can theoretically become Chosen ("Savant").

Actually, the Sabik believe that savants/chosen are born destined for such:

"...the Sani Sabik faith embraced two central dogmas. The first was that certain people were born destined for greatness, with all others existing solely to serve and breed these savants. The second was that immortality was attainable by these savants." - Evelopedia

The issue with 'joining' is that the Sabik were willing to accept anyone who simply followed their ways as inherently Savant; this stands in stark contrast to the traditional Amarr view of Chosen-ness being gained through extended service and faith to the (orthodox) God.

Quote from: Samira Kernher
That anyone can become Chosen by faith in God is the one piece of Sabik Scripture we have, and this is a Scripture that is deemed heretical by orthodox Amarrian faith. Sure, there's no orthodox Scripture we have that outright says 'only the True Amarr are Chosen', so there is a bit of leeway on player interpretation, but when there is a Scripture that says "anyone can become Chosen by being faithful" and that this Scripture is deemed heretical, that says quite a lot to me.

Source doesn't stop characters from having the other interpretation ICly and arguing for that view, because at least from the Scriptures we have available it is possible to argue for that interpretation ICly. All that Source does is just reinforces canon that has already been there that the traditional belief is that only the True Amarr are God's Chosen, thus confirming that other interpretations are an atypical belief (which can be considered either simply liberal or heretical depending on character viewpoints).

On the contrary - it's still a controversial view with many different facets, as your quotes show. While conservative heirs can make noises that only True should be involved with highest-tier matters such as choosing the next Emperor, their views are not outright endorsed as the absolute truth - else, the Tash-Murkons would not have been able to get away with saying what they did. The Murkons' view, while obviously liberal compared to the Kador, Ardishapur and Sarum conservative views, are not by any means heretical.

tl;dr for others reading this - previously there were obviously conservative and liberal positions in the debate on how important ethnocentrism was in the Faith. Source took the conservative view and presented it as the only one. This does not jive with previous lore.
« Last Edit: 27 Mar 2014, 19:26 by Esna Pitoojee »
Logged
I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Publius Valerius

  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 104
Re: Feedback: EVE: Source
« Reply #54 on: 27 Mar 2014, 19:46 »

Dont know. The Source is clear on this. I would even so far go and say: If you are not a true amarr you are a sinful. As it mention you cant never wash it off. So truth be told religion doesnt matter, it cant wash of your smell (as I mention before. Relgion isnt the paradigm. racism is. So I was wrong here.). So I would even so far go and say: If you are not a true amarr you are a heretic, you are sub-human, you are human trash and some are just human trash to some degree (Ni-Kunni, Khanid, etc... all human trash. They are just a smidge about trash, but still trash.).

Quote
Source Book:
True Amarr are held aloft by the rest of the Amarr society, viewed as secret paragons of piety. Other bloodlines are forever tainted by the sin of their ancestors, no matter how pious, no matter how fervent and faithful, they will never match the unstained purity of the True Amarr.
[...]
Regardless, everyone born in the empire has one thing in common; a constant reinforcement of religion, the natural order of True Amarr on top.


So yes, I get your points, and I think it is stupid too (and un-reasonable..etc...). And I could make hunderts of post and comments it would end up like the Kingdom discussion. And we all know how well this was going.*cough* True be told. When Im back, Im most likely left the amarr bloc anyway. So I dont care. As Lyn mention before about the Mandate, that it is the most useless faction there is (to lazy to search). I think that too. Only in my case it is the Kingdom. The Kingdom is the most useless faction there is. And if CCP want to fuck it, they should it do it in a game of thrones style. :D With a lot of blood and tears.  :P I would even help there, to finish it off with STYLE.  :D



So back to the topic. I really love the pictures. They are great. Just love the art work. The amarr have a dark temple thing going and the gallente are totally cyberpunk badasses. Love both. I love it, as I mention here. For me they had always a cyberpunk aesthetic going (of course without the cyberpunk-dystopian structure).


Logged

Elmund Egivand

  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 773
  • Will jib for ISK
Re: Feedback: EVE: Source
« Reply #55 on: 27 Mar 2014, 20:03 »

I wish there's more Matar art though. Only two images in the Minmatar Republic chapter. What little I saw looked like Space Western plus Industrial.
Logged
Deep sea fish loves you forever

Samira Kernher

  • Soulless Puppet
  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • Ardishapur Victor
Re: Feedback: EVE: Source
« Reply #56 on: 27 Mar 2014, 21:20 »

There is an assumption that equal opportunity in the hierarchy of the Empire and being Chosen are one in the same. They are not. At no point to my knowledge does Tash-Murkon or any other liberal character explicitly say or argue that non-True Amarr can become Chosen. What they specifically argue for is that non-True Amarr can be and are contributors to the faith and Empire, able to fill important positions in the Imperial hierarchy beyond simple servitude.

Quote from: Nicoletta Mithra
There was by the PF a variety of different approaches possible. At least in the Tash-Murkon domains racism seems to be shunned quite blatantly.

Quote from: Esna Pitoojee
Again, the conservatives are more likely to be ethnocentric - no surprise there. Right above, however, the Tash-Murkons say that "The Empire was forged in our collective blood. We worship the one and only Lord God. It is by all our strengths that the Empire was made great, and it will be by all our strengths that it shall continue." Ethnocentrism is clearly not a universally-applied, totally homogenous rule in the faith; if it were, the Murkons' words would be heresy.

Quote
And here it's even outright said - pure ethnocentrism/racism exists among the more conservative factions, but is highly controversial and not at all universally accepted in the Empire. If True Amarr being forever the only Chosen was codified in the scriptures, the controversy in the quote would not be occurring.

The common element in all of these is the belief that acknowledging the value of other races automatically means that non-True Amarr can become Chosen. It is entirely possible for a character to argue for equal rights in the hierarchy of the Empire while also believing that only True Amarr are Chosen by God. Belief in one does not presume belief in the other.

In the case of Tanar, the controversy was over his argument that all non-True Amarr are fit only to serve and can hold no titles or other positions of influence. His story does not say anything about Chosen, what it says is that he believed there was Scriptural evidence that mandated that non-True Amarr must only serve and never hold positions of importance.

Essentially, what we have to take from these examples should not be assumed to be 'can other races become Chosen?', when there is also the equally possible argument of 'what kind of influence and rights can non-Chosen have in the Empire?', which is the more likely one in my opinion. I see the acceptance of, say, Khanid Holders not to mean 'Khanid can become Chosen', but instead 'Non-Chosen of proven faith can become Holders'.

The only source that says that anyone can become Chosen, by that wording, is the Apocryphon. Not the Scriptures, not Tash-Murkon, not canon liberals. The latter three have said things that can be interpreted to mean such, can imply belief in that, but none of them explicitly say it.

I'm not going to say that the belief of becoming Chosen by non-Chosen doesn't exist. I'm sure it does, there's enough leeway to argue for it. But I would imagine such a thing is not open, with arguments instead being focused around responsibilities and opportunities while leaving the issue of 'becoming Chosen' unsaid. Hence why you always only see the conservative NPCs talking about the one true race, chosen by God, while liberals never use that same language about chosen people. They instead talk about societal contributions and strengths and being positive influences on the Empire. If someone outright said 'non-True Amarr are/should also be Chosen' in public discourse, I would see that starting a controversy (which is what we see with the Kameiras)

Quote
True Amarr lead because they were first chosen, but others can achieve glory and recognition by opting to aid the faithful as well. This is little different from the situations of the Eudorians, Khanid, and Ni-Kunni (all of which are not strictly speaking True Amarr, but are at current varying distances along the path to becoming Chosen).

Again, there is an assumption that becoming redeemed/faithful and becoming Chosen are the same thing. I have yet to see a source that says this beyond Apocryphon.

Quote
Also, there is still Scripture which says that everyone can be chosen by God:

"All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all;
When thine heart shines with the Light, thou shalt know no hardship;
When thine actions are in Light's name, thou art immortal."
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:1

I see nothing here that says that everyone can become Chosen. It says that the glory of faith is inherent in all, which can mean many things. It does not say that all can be God's Chosen. Unless something explicitly says that non-True Amarr can become Chosen, it is an interpretation. And the only Scripture that explicitly says it is a heretical one.

Quote
Actually, the Sabik believe that savants/chosen are born destined for such:

"...the Sani Sabik faith embraced two central dogmas. The first was that certain people were born destined for greatness, with all others existing solely to serve and breed these savants. The second was that immortality was attainable by these savants." - Evelopedia

The issue with 'joining' is that the Sabik were willing to accept anyone who simply followed their ways as inherently Savant; this stands in stark contrast to the traditional Amarr view of Chosen-ness being gained through extended service and faith to the (orthodox) God.

Stated as destiny, but in practice it's meritocratic hence why it appeals to commoners, as it is a method of social mobility that they don't otherwise have. For sects like the Blood Raiders, whether you were destiny is determined by your own efforts, "if you embraced the faith, then you were clearly destined". This is rather different from having your status laid out before you from birth and having no avenue to change it.

As far as "stark contrast to the traditional Amarr view of Chosen-ness being gained through extended service and faith to the (orthodox) God"... uh, no. The traditional Amarr view is that the Chosen are born that way. This is said in that same article. This is where the Sabik and Amarr faiths are similar.

"The second commonality is the belief in savants, individuals who are greater than their fellow man and capable of great achievements. The nature of these savants varies from sect to sect, with some following closely to the Amarr tradition of the chosen being born that way. The Blood Raiders view the practice more liberally, considering anyone strong enough to embrace the Blood Raider lifestyle worthy of being called one of the chosen. Such a belief is found in many of the other sects scattered across New Eden and is especially appealing to Amarr commoners, who seek to rise above their restrictive stations."

Being born Chosen is the traditional Amarr belief, as stated here, and the Sabik sects that believe similarly are the ones following closer to the orthodox Amarr religion.
« Last Edit: 27 Mar 2014, 21:24 by Samira Kernher »
Logged

Publius Valerius

  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 104
Re: Feedback: EVE: Source
« Reply #57 on: 27 Mar 2014, 21:38 »

It is entirely possible for a character to argue for equal rights in the hierarchy of the Empire while also believing that only True Amarr are Chosen by God.

Ehm nice.  :D Can you flesh this out more? And please us "If, then" and "the more, the more" correlations; and a "Weber-Bath-tub". I hope you will then see what an error you have done, without me spelling out everything. As I have to do in fucking every discussion. :D



As for this space-opera-white-supremacy-movement topic....and the question: Has the empire a racist- or religious-paradigm? It is clearly a racist one. So deal with it. If CCP says so, then it is so.


By the way can one moderator come and split the thread into. (1) Source book feedback and (2) True-Amarr-supremacy-movement. Or how can I ask one?
Logged

Nicoletta Mithra

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1049
Re: Feedback: EVE: Source
« Reply #58 on: 27 Mar 2014, 22:07 »

The Amarr themselves not being Chosen from the start themselves aside, your argument, Samira, goes both ways: Nowhere does Scripture say that non-True Amarr can't become Chosen, nor do the quotes you provide. Even the quoted belief that one is being born chosen does merely mean that being chosen is inheritable, not that it can't be acquired (as the Amarr clearly did!). If what we have to take from these examples should not be assumed to be 'can other races become Chosen?', when there is also the equally possible argument of 'what kind of influence and rights can non-Chosen have in the Empire?', we should neither take it to be 'what kind of influence and rights can non-Chosen have in the Empire?', if it equally can be understood to mean'can other races become Chosen?'. That you prefer to interpret it as 'what kind of influence and rights can non-Chosen have in the Empire?' should be no reason at all to prefer that interpretation, unless you want to monopolize the interpretation PF to your person.

The idea that Chosen are only the True Amarr and nobody else can be Chosen isn't implied by necessity in these quotes. In fact,not even EVE: Source is explicitly asserting the stance you're espousing here:

Quote
Source Book:
True Amarr are held aloft by the rest of the Amarr society, viewed as secret paragons of piety. Other bloodlines are forever tainted by the sin of their ancestors, no matter how pious, no matter how fervent and faithful, they will never match the unstained purity of the True Amarr.
[...]
Regardless, everyone born in the empire has one thing in common; a constant reinforcement of religion, the natural order of True Amarr on top.

In fact it is giving exactly the stance that you argue to be valid is invalid: Amarr are on top by natural order (not by being chosen, interestingly!). This means it's not anymore possible (by Source) for a character to argue for equal rights in the hierarchy of the Empire, if he is a 'good citizen' of the Empire, while it previously was.
Logged

Nicoletta Mithra

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1049
Re: Feedback: EVE: Source
« Reply #59 on: 27 Mar 2014, 22:17 »

In fact, given that the Empire was supposedly a 'theocratic' state, there should be no difference between religious and secular hierarchy, which you're trying to read into the PF here. If it would be possible for a Udorian to become Emperor on having distinguished himself mundanely, but not religiously, then the theocratic character is lost. It might, at best, then remain to be an Empire with worldly hierarchy and a state religion. We get repeatedly told that this, though, isn't how the Empire operates. Thus there is good reason to assume that your opinion is just not based in a thorough understanding of PF or that PF itself is conflicting or somesuch.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 9