Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Nauplius on 06 Mar 2014, 13:22
-
It actually has merit. If not for the one mission that says that Amarr don't believe in the concept of hell, there are actually more sources implying it exists than not.
Right, there's one mission — part 2 of The Anomaly — saying Amarr don't believe in hell, although there's a small loophole open for me in that the words are actually said by an NPC in-character, not omniscient narration. Although I had done the sequence on an alt, I somehow missed that text but did remember what the NPC said in part 3, when she personally said that she has started to believe in hell.
At any rate, hell does appear elsewhere in PF. "Theodicy" has quite a bit of hell-language: the caverns of the fiery planet are called the "Hell's Gate"; the slave in the beginning is told to dig his way out of hell; the planet is called hellish by a character; the characters use the word "hell" all the time. There's also a chronicle in which an Ammatar terrorist expected "hellfires of damnation" speeches from Ardishapur; another in which an Ammatar who now lived in the Republic mused about a relative who believed the Amarr religion who believed in hell. A lot of the PF has characters using the word "hell," sometimes as a meaningless intensifier, but often as at least something bad, and occasionally as something associated with lava and fire. Finally there's ship names — I know we aren't speaking English IC, but I tend to think that Damnation and Abaddon have to mean something kind-of-sort-of like what they mean to us. Very roughly.
My take from this is that Hell is at least an optional belief for Amarrians, perhaps more so among the Ammatar, but not a required belief for anyone and perhaps something a little old-fashioned.
[Edit: spelling]
-
There's also this little bit (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Death#Amarr) bit from EVElopedia, which straight up confirms that Amarr believe in some kind of damnation beyond oblivion.
"Those not part of the Amarr religion and those who profess to be, but have sinned greatly, are doomed to forever suffer torment until the end of creation."
Really, The Anomaly is actually the exception.
-
What's generally missing is an explanation of what constitutes "Hell" to the Amarr faith.
In the mission "The Anomaly," Hell as a place is addressed specifically as being typically considered an 'outdated' concept - presumably for the mainstream Amarr community - and it is suggested to instead be simply a state of mind.
I'm not really sure I like the "fire and brimstone" version of Hell we derive from Christian stuff as being what's used by the Amarr. Something that's more akin to an eternal purgatory, or a plane of existence defined by a complete void - the absence of anything. Just nothingness.
Also, take the thought about NPC corp vs. player corp with some salt, Nauplius - I recognize that that sort of change would expose you to several wardecs right off the bat (that I can think of, anyway) - if it would be particularly disruptive and prevent you from enjoying the game outside of the gameplay you use for the IGS stuff, don't worry about it too much. It's just something that I've noticed has come up in a few places, and I just find the wardec-free aspect of the FW NPC corps to be a little bit dumb, mostly on CCP's part. (I'd be happier if CCP just removed the NPC militia corps and forced players to join player corps if they wanted to be in FW, honestly.)
-
For me personally, I RP that Samira does believe in hell, but I explicitly don't try to define it. Because as a divine construct, it is undefinable--damnation (and bliss) is going to be the worst (and best for bliss) possible thing that can happen to you. There's no gray area with divine constructs, it's binary. Damnation and bliss. Absolute torment and absolute paradise.
Sami's hell is oblivion, which is also the typical Amarr belief to my understanding. But eternal fire and brimstone is also a valid belief, because some people might fear that more. If it really exists, it would supercede any description that mortals could come up for it--it would simply be damnation.
In other words: Of all the things Nauplius has said IC, hell is IMO the least contentious of them.
-
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a231/bertcom1/20110303154616.jpg)
Hell as a place where sinners are gathered together and tormented, vs hell as being the state of mind of the tormented sinner after death.
Personally, I am unsure of the fire&brimstone "hell" imagery, because I don't remember reading anything about the geography of Athra that mentions volcanos and such. In RL, in places like ancient Greece, where there were volcanoes, that lended itself to "hell" as being an inferno and all that.
There's more imagery in the Scriptures about a desert environment (although Amarr island is iirc, a subtropical island continent...)
Although "fires of damnation", as relating to meteors and such, rather than volcanoes, might work, because Amarr has been a spacefaring religion for two thousand years, astrological phenomena would surely have entered the scriptural metaphors in that time.
-
Just a random side-note: there are plenty of IRL Christians who believe hell is a metaphor for the state of existence eternally cut off from the divine. Many religions use metaphor for negative concepts.
-
There are plenty of mentions of hell as a wording and a saying, not as an actual concept like Heaven is in Amarr scripture.
Damnation is one thing, Hell is another.
So yes, as already said above by many, I have yet to see a true concept of Hell as a special opposite to Heaven, Heaven that is directly related to the Sefrims in Amarr religion. There is nothing mentioned in the Amarr history that could point to hell like the Sefrims point to Heaven and uplifting.
Also, better to keep in mind that fire suddenly became synonymous of hell in christian imagery, which is an anomaly in itself because in every other religion and culture that came before, fire was associated to cleansing, redeeming, rebirth, purification, and more generally, light and white rather than dark and red.
-
There are plenty of mentions of hell as a wording and a saying, not as an actual concept like Heaven is in Amarr scripture.
Damnation is one thing, Hell is another.
So yes, as already said above by many, I have yet to see a true concept of Hell as a special opposite to Heaven, Heaven that is directly related to the Sefrims in Amarr religion. There is nothing mentioned in the Amarr history that could point to hell like the Sefrims point to Heaven and uplifting.
Also, better to keep in mind that fire suddenly became synonymous of hell in christian imagery, which is an anomaly in itself because in every other religion and culture that came before, fire was associated to cleansing, redeeming, rebirth, purification, and more generally, light and white rather than dark and red.
Yes, a significant amount of our notions of hell come from St. Paul's version of Jesus Christ.
-
There are plenty of mentions of hell as a wording and a saying, not as an actual concept like Heaven is in Amarr scripture.
Damnation is one thing, Hell is another.
So yes, as already said above by many, I have yet to see a true concept of Hell as a special opposite to Heaven, Heaven that is directly related to the Sefrims in Amarr religion. There is nothing mentioned in the Amarr history that could point to hell like the Sefrims point to Heaven and uplifting.
Also, better to keep in mind that fire suddenly became synonymous of hell in christian imagery, which is an anomaly in itself because in every other religion and culture that came before, fire was associated to cleansing, redeeming, rebirth, purification, and more generally, light and white rather than dark and red.
And not to continue on what might become a tangent, but the place we get the name "Hell" from is actually an icy wasteland, not a place of fire and heat and all that.
-
Well, those who prefer the void or annihilation view of hell might pick up on my occasional IC use of the word "Abaddon" (a semi-obscure word in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament meaning "the Pit", "the Pit of Destruction", or "Destruction, personified").
I think there's some merit in the idea implicit in Part 3 of the Anomaly and what Louella wrote upthread that ideas about hell might reflect things the Amarr found in space rather than on the Amarr Prime, whether those be lava and asteroid ravaged "demon planets" like the one in "Theodicy" or "cosmic anomalies" of various sorts.
-
While idly looking through news sources in relation to other matters, I found some pieces of pretty solid evidence that supports Nauplius' view of hell.
"The Grand Master then condemned Revan "...to burn in the pits of damnation and heresy." " - Order of St. Tetrimon condemns pilot for heresy (http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1239&tid=2&_ga=1.250990661.211453999.1385375113)
"God’s fires will not show heretics any mercy." - Order of St. Tetrimon condemns Versium Family actions (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=359554&page=2#40)
"Enjoy your heretical union and your solidified place in the burning depths of hell." - Regarding charges of heresy. (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=384418&page=3#77)
Fitting, also, as it is a Tetrimon Grand Master, which implies that it is an older belief. So it doesn't really contradict the modern viewpoint, while also leaving it open for characters like Nauplius.
-
"The Grand Master then condemned Revan "...to burn in the pits of damnation and heresy." " - Order of St. Tetrimon condemns pilot for heresy (http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1239&tid=2&_ga=1.250990661.211453999.1385375113)
"God’s fires will not show heretics any mercy." - Order of St. Tetrimon condemns Versium Family actions (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=359554&page=2#40)
"Enjoy your heretical union and your solidified place in the burning depths of hell." - Regarding charges of heresy. (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=384418&page=3#77)
Wonderful! Odelya will for sure use this! :-)
-
Whether Amarr believe in Hell or not is quite a question: There's PF affirming one thing as well as the other. It's simply that the writer's don't go by established fact, but by what they need to tell their stories, the result being an ever growing mass of contradictions.
-
What it means is that while people can ICly oppose Nauplius for his viewpoint on hell and call it outdated and old-fashioned, they cannot claim that he is straight up wrong or that his interpretation has no canon basis, as it clearly does.
-
Naupilius throws the word 'hell' around a lot, which is why I'd assumed he has some mishmosh of EoM and Sani Sabik in his head.
I am extremely unconvinced by the "Orthodox Amarr don't have hell" line that has become popular in OOC discussions of Amarr Religion. Like, really really unconvinced. The bit of in game PF used to support it is not conclusive beyond saying that Amarr don't believe in hell being a physical place. I am pretty sure that plenty of orthodox Amarr would have a quite strong concept of hell/eternal damnation even if the theologians don't think it is an actual location.
-
I have always put a strong emphasis on the absence of Hell in the Amarr Canon, since it was PF and all, but it also has to be taken in consideration that there is a clear distinction made between physical/spiritual places like the Heavens, that are actually where the Chosen end up after death, the absence of Hell as its counterpart like it is in Christianity for example, and just, well, the damnation either through History (book of records, scriptures, etc) or just one's own karma.
I mean it is clear that the Scriptures point at the Heaven being the place after death (if that could even be described as a physical location anyway, it's purely spiritual and we can make up whatever we want about what the Heavens are since either the PF doesn't describe the concept much more, or either the Amarr themselves do not, who knows), but they also point that you can be barred access due to various circumstances, like that scripture passage about people turning their back to righteousness.
And the interesting bit is that this particular piece of the PF is also pointing at the belief of Hell as a counterpart of Heavens being an actual thing in the old Amarr society that has since more or less disappeared. And even if not, it still hints that by the simple fact that it is stated "ICly", they know and are aware of the very concept of Hell being like that. So it is really possible that they actually believe in damnation of a soul from the simple fact that you can be barred from the Heavens, be it eternal or whatever, and so that means that you have to be damned in some way for that to happen, but that the concept of Hell has never been part of the religion itself. Maybe more of a tradition, or a cultural thing ? Difficult to tell since PF doesn't say.
Which also hints at another question I have always wondered about : if one can be barred from the Heavens, and if Hell/Purgatory are not really accounted in the Amarr religion, then where do those souls go ? Or what happens to them ?
-
Reborn into a higher/lower (depending on who's talking) form of existence, i.e. Minmatar.
That'd be a heresy I'd pay a lot of ISK to see being a thing.
-
I have always put a strong emphasis on the absence of Hell in the Amarr Canon, since it was PF and all, but it also has to be taken in consideration that there is a clear distinction made between physical/spiritual places like the Heavens, that are actually where the Chosen end up after death, the absence of Hell as its counterpart like it is in Christianity for example, and just, well, the damnation either through History (book of records, scriptures, etc) or just one's own karma.
Except the absence of it isn't PF, going by dev actors and the Death article.
Even the in-game mission that everyone likes to use says that hell as a concept still exists, if in a different manner of speaking.
The only PF that's ever indicated that hell might not exist at all is Eterne saying that Amarr believe you cease to exist when dying. And even that is not a statement that hell doesn't exist, only saying that the Amarrian concept of hell (in the sense of 'negative afterlife') is oblivion.
Which also hints at another question I have always wondered about : if one can be barred from the Heavens, and if Hell/Purgatory are not really accounted in the Amarr religion, then where do those souls go ? Or what happens to them ?
Again, it is said. The traditional belief, according to Eterne, is that they cease to exist. One can call that oblivion, hell, or whatever, but that's the standard idea of where they go.
The Death article on EVElopedia also accounts for eternal torment until the end of creation. Which might be the same thing as oblivion--since it's pretty easy to see the cessation of existence as a torment.
Death article also accounts for a purgatory in a sense, in that less pious souls have to spend some time away from God.
-
How does oblivion equal torment? You sort of have to exist in order to experience anything, torment included.
-
I don't really get where Eterne got that one, myself. It really doesn't mesh well with the older PF, like the death article and all of the Tetrimon chatlogs.
I know CCP doesn't consider event actor statements PF. But *I* do, personally.
But we are derailing Nauplius' thread a bit, no?
-
I have always put a strong emphasis on the absence of Hell in the Amarr Canon, since it was PF and all, but it also has to be taken in consideration that there is a clear distinction made between physical/spiritual places like the Heavens, that are actually where the Chosen end up after death, the absence of Hell as its counterpart like it is in Christianity for example, and just, well, the damnation either through History (book of records, scriptures, etc) or just one's own karma.
Except the absence of it isn't PF, going by dev actors and the Death article.
Even the in-game mission that everyone likes to use says that hell as a concept still exists, if in a different manner of speaking.
The only PF that's ever indicated that hell might not exist at all is Eterne saying that Amarr believe you cease to exist when dying. And even that is not a statement that hell doesn't exist, only saying that the Amarrian concept of hell (in the sense of 'negative afterlife') is oblivion.
Well yes, that's what I said, in a different manner of speaking. That mission that "everyone likes to use" was actually quite well developed for a mission bit and hinted at a serious PF hint. It made sense to me because there is also absolutely ZERO mention of Hell in every bit of scripture that we have, while there are legion for Heavens.
Well of course, of they have changed that over the past years, who am I to tell them they are doing it wrong, right... :psyccp:
Which also hints at another question I have always wondered about : if one can be barred from the Heavens, and if Hell/Purgatory are not really accounted in the Amarr religion, then where do those souls go ? Or what happens to them ?
Again, it is said. The traditional belief, according to Eterne, is that they cease to exist. One can call that oblivion, hell, or whatever, but that's the standard idea of where they go.
The Death article on EVElopedia also accounts for eternal torment until the end of creation. Which might be the same thing as oblivion--since it's pretty easy to see the cessation of existence as a torment.
Death article also accounts for a purgatory in a sense, in that less pious souls have to spend some time away from God.
Sorry but Eterne "said" things doesn't mean much to me. I will need written traces to actually take that into account. Not that I don't like Eterne or anything (quite the contrary), but i'm not going to take for truth the ramblings of a single dev actor with his own views on PF.
Also, when was this article on death written ? I don't remember it... Is it new ?
Oblivion is not Hell to me anyway. It's just void. Hell =/= void. Of course it's also written that they will suffer torment until the end of times. Okay. I find it really trite but whatever. The one thing I like with Amarr scriptures is that they tried to get away from IRL tropes, and this one is definitely not going into that direction. I quite liked the idea that it was kindof different, that's also why I found that mission PF piece intriguing, but apparently, it's not...
:psyccp: :psyccp: :psyccp:
But well, at least I guess it answers the part on impure souls and where they go.
On a sidenote, I find their lack of material in that article on the gallente beliefs extremely telling of their usual "don't fucking care to bother finding something about the gallente, they are a melting pot so that could be anything". Well, for a change, I would have liked some examples that stand out... Ah, the Intaki. Right, and nothing else ? No Mannar thing ? No Garoun beliefs ?
-
How does oblivion equal torment? You sort of have to exist in order to experience anything, torment included.
When you get technical yes. But the concept itself can be fear inspiring, which could lead to describing it as a form of 'eternal torment'. IE someone who considers the word torment to indicate 'something very bad', then oblivion would fall into that category.
I'm basically saying that there's nothing stopping someone that believes in hell/eternal damnation/eternal torment from believing that it's anything other than oblivion. It's "something to hate/fear", which is the main purpose of the idea.
TVtropes uses the term 'pain of nonexistence' even, as one common perception of hell, in its article on hell in fiction (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hell).
Well yes, that's what I said, in a different manner of speaking. That mission that "everyone likes to use" was actually quite well developed for a mission bit and hinted at a serious PF hint. It made sense to me because there is also absolutely ZERO mention of Hell in every bit of scripture that we have, while there are legion for Heavens.
And yet it got used all the time by dev actors, in particular ones who were theoretically supposed to be the absolute religious extremists.
As usual, CCP are very contradictory.
Even then, its lack of mention in the woefully small selection of Scripture we have doesn't really say much. Even the Bible almost never mentions the concept, and never by the word 'hell'. I'd consider the Death article a more appropriate source in this case due to being written from an omniscient world-building perspective.
Also, that article was written in late 2011 btw, according to its history page.
Sorry but Eterne "said" things doesn't mean much to me. I will need written traces to actually take that into account. Not that I don't like Eterne or anything (quite the contrary), but i'm not going to take for truth the ramblings of a single dev actor with his own views on PF.
*shrugs*
I'm just telling what he said. Of which the actual post is here (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2244150#post2244150), by the way.
I don't think I agree with it entirely, but he was a dev and so that does have weight. But like I said above, I prefer going by the Death article since that was actually published on EVElopedia rather than being just an off-hand post on a forum. Buuuut...
Oblivion is not Hell to me anyway. It's just void. Hell =/= void. Of course it's also written that they will suffer torment until the end of times. Okay. I find it really trite but whatever. The one thing I like with Amarr scriptures is that they tried to get away from IRL tropes, and this one is definitely not going into that direction. I quite liked the idea that it was kindof different, that's also why I found that mission PF piece intriguing, but apparently, it's not...
Until the devs actually decide to stick with something, we don't know what direction they want it to go in.
Personally, however, I'm not sure there even should be a direction. It's religion. There should be a million and one different interpretations and denominations. Some might believe in hell, some might not. Of the ones that do, there might be hundreds of different beliefs of what it might be, even within a single orthodoxy. Just like in RL. If an Amarr player wants their character to believe in hell and pits of fire, then they have as much right to believe that IC as someone who believes that there is no hell and that people simply cease to exist when they die.
And personally I'd consider oblivion to be hell. But then, in my opinion, cessation of existence is by far the worst possible torment that could happen to you (see, Mizhara? I can't think of a better word choice to use here). And as hell is supposed to be the worst possible thing, even RL I can't imagine it being anything else.
Also, the Scriptures don't at all get away from RL tropes. When you have imagery in the Scriptures like the trumpets of Heaven, "God saw that it was (not) good," "In the beginning," angels, apocalypse, the ark, and the sefrim (based obviously on seraphim, complete with fire imagery), along with pseudo biblical language and book/verse notations, I can't say I find it being all that distant. Even hell gets a mention, in-game if not in the Scriptures. Abaddon is, afterall, another word for hell.
-
Well, "Hell as Oblivion" wouldn't really be avoiding real-life tropes, though; so-called "Annihilationism" is an increasingly accepted Christian doctrine, and one that is part of a long chain of thought going back to the Bible.
Eternal conscious torment that is nonetheless something other than literal "fire and brimstone" is an even more mainstream Christian doctrine; the notion was rampant among the early Church Fathers and was the leading position during the early Protestant Reformation:
Moreover, as language cannot describe the severity of the divine vengeance on the reprobate, their pains and torments are figured to us by corporeal things, such as darkness, wailing and gnashing of teeth, inextinguishable fire, the ever-gnawing worm (Mt. 8:12; 22:13; Mark 9:43; Isa. 66:24). It is certain that by such modes of expression the Holy Spirit designed to impress all our senses with dread, as when it is said, “Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared: he has made it deep and large; the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, does kindle it,” (Isa. 30:33). As we thus require to be assisted to conceive the miserable doom of the reprobate, so the consideration on which we ought chiefly to dwell is the fearful consequence of being estranged from all fellowship with God, and not only so, but of feeling that his majesty is adverse to us, while we cannot possibly escape from it. For, first, his indignation is like a raging fire, by whose touch all things are devoured and annihilated. Next, all the creatures are the instruments of his judgment, so that those to whom the Lord will thus publicly manifest his anger will feel that heaven, and earth, and sea, all beings, animate and inanimate, are, as it were, inflamed with dire indignation against them, and armed for their destruction. Wherefore, the Apostle made no trivial declaration, when he said that unbelievers shall be “punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power,” (2 Thess. 1:9). And whenever the prophets strike terror by means of corporeal figures, although in respect of our dull understanding there is no extravagance in their language, yet they give preludes of the future judgment in the sun and the moon, and the whole fabric of the world. Hence unhappy consciences find no rest, but are vexed and driven about by a dire whirlwind, feeling as if torn by an angry God, pierced through with deadly darts, terrified by his thunderbolts and crushed by the weight of his hand; so that it were easier to plunge into abysses and whirlpools than endure these terrors for a moment. How fearful, then, must it be to be thus beset throughout eternity! On this subject there is a memorable passage in the ninetieth Psalm: Although God by a mere look scatters all mortals, and brings them to nought, yet as his worshippers are more timid in this world, he urges them the more, that he may stimulate then, while burdened with the cross to press onward until he himself shall be all in all.
-
Even the Bible almost never mentions the concept, and never by the word 'hell'.
If people want to compare things to RL (which, ya know), this is an important point. Hell is not mentioned in the Bible until Jesus in the NT - and even then it is relatively very few references. The Christian obsession with it was a doctrinal and institutional development more than anything. And as Nauplius said, the literal interpretation of it is by no means a historical norm.
-
That is a very good quote, Naup. That first sentence especially.
-
Well yes, that's what I said, in a different manner of speaking. That mission that "everyone likes to use" was actually quite well developed for a mission bit and hinted at a serious PF hint. It made sense to me because there is also absolutely ZERO mention of Hell in every bit of scripture that we have, while there are legion for Heavens.
And yet it got used all the time by dev actors, in particular ones who were theoretically supposed to be the absolute religious extremists.
As usual, CCP are very contradictory.
Even then, its lack of mention in the woefully small selection of Scripture we have doesn't really say much. Even the Bible almost never mentions the concept, and never by the word 'hell'. I'd consider the Death article a more appropriate source in this case due to being written from an omniscient world-building perspective.
Also, that article was written in late 2011 btw, according to its history page.
Well yes, according to the mission text too, it was mostly used by old school believers or extremists, but not by the mainstream anymore, so I wouldn't have found that so weird to see extremist dev actors to use it. And anyway, they probably were not aware of the subtlety or existence of that specific thing anyway.
For the Bible, I'll have to take your word for it since I haven't read a single line of that book...
I of course will take precedence of the article on Death over any mission lore piece, I must have missed this one when it got written back then.
However if it is not mentioned a single time in the scriptures that we know, out of pure logic it means that we don't know. It of course doesn't indicate that there is no Hell in Amarr History by itself, but combined with that mission pieces it made a lot of sense and could hint at things. It was evidently not pointing to a fact, and only to interpretations, but I find the speculation of it really valid. To the contrary, if we start to take the absence of anything as a proof that it could well be there, then I guess that the giant spaghetti monster could well be in the scriptures too. :P
Which kindof start to go into a slippery slope of atheist arguments vs theist arguments, in which I won't go...
Anyway, that article on Death saves the day and solves the issue.
Personally, however, I'm not sure there even should be a direction. It's religion. There should be a million and one different interpretations and denominations. Some might believe in hell, some might not. Of the ones that do, there might be hundreds of different beliefs of what it might be, even within a single orthodoxy. Just like in RL. If an Amarr player wants their character to believe in hell and pits of fire, then they have as much right to believe that IC as someone who believes that there is no hell and that people simply cease to exist when they die.
On that, definitely.
And personally I'd consider oblivion to be hell. But then, in my opinion, cessation of existence is by far the worst possible torment that could happen to you (see, Mizhara? I can't think of a better word choice to use here). And as hell is supposed to be the worst possible thing, even RL I can't imagine it being anything else.
Ugh, even if self preservation means that I am unable to cease to exist and will fight vehemently not to do, sometimes I wouldn't mind. After all, if you cease to exist, you are not here to suffer from it anymore...
Bleh, metaphysics. :P
Also, the Scriptures don't at all get away from RL tropes. When you have imagery in the Scriptures like the trumpets of Heaven, "God saw that it was (not) good," "In the beginning," angels, apocalypse, the ark, and the sefrim (based obviously on seraphim, complete with fire imagery), along with pseudo biblical language and book/verse notations, I can't say I find it being all that distant. Even hell gets a mention, in-game if not in the Scriptures. Abaddon is, afterall, another word for hell.
There is a difference between how it's worded, and the content itself. Of course everything is based on archetypes of what already exist, and that gives it flavour if handled properly.
However if we are just to accept everything to be a pale copy of the RL world, then we might well just make OOC RP trolls right and consider the Amarr religion to be the rightful successor of space catholic church.
Because why bother.
-
I can certainly see the fear of oblivion to be torment, but the actual execution of the concept is quite demonstrably not as by definition there is nothing left that can experience said torment. The entire experience up to that point is of course another thing entirely. Any fate that includes eternal (insert absolutely any experience here) would not be oblivion. Of course, the self-contradictory nature of almost every afterlife envisioned in human history is not exactly a new thing so it certainly fits the PF whichever way one decides to take it.
It's odd, though. With all the Amarrian RP activity over the last decade you'd think some of these details would have been nailed down by now as they're sort of pivotal for several points of the theology, which by itself is rather pivotal for Amarrian culture. Especially given the enormous religious oversight from the Theology Council etc, the fairly hard trouncing of anything resembling heresy and such.
-
Also, the Scriptures don't at all get away from RL tropes. When you have imagery in the Scriptures like the trumpets of Heaven, "God saw that it was (not) good," "In the beginning," angels, apocalypse, the ark, and the sefrim (based obviously on seraphim, complete with fire imagery), along with pseudo biblical language and book/verse notations, I can't say I find it being all that distant. Even hell gets a mention, in-game if not in the Scriptures. Abaddon is, afterall, another word for hell.
There is a difference between how it's worded, and the content itself. Of course everything is based on archetypes of what already exist, and that gives it flavour if handled properly.
However if we are just to accept everything to be a pale copy of the RL world, then we might well just make OOC RP trolls right and consider the Amarr religion to be the rightful successor of space catholic church.
Because why bother.
Never said to make things a pale copy of the RL world. Only that I disagree with the idea that the Amarr faith as presented is something apart from RL tropes. As I see it, it is a lot closer to modern faith than most other fantasy universes. But I don't find that a bad thing. On the contrary it is one of the things that makes it very interesting to me, because it's something I can identify with as a religious person RL. I can't identify with the polytheistic, Greek-myth-inspired ones you see in most fantasy settings; I have no idea how to RP someone in that kind of faith (something shared by most of the writers, who inevitably roll with a henotheistic religion instead of a true polytheistic one). As you said, you just need to be sure to treat inspiration as inspiration and use it to expand and add depth to the universe rather than simply replicating.
I'll also end with this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreTools
It's odd, though. With all the Amarrian RP activity over the last decade you'd think some of these details would have been nailed down by now as they're sort of pivotal for several points of the theology, which by itself is rather pivotal for Amarrian culture. Especially given the enormous religious oversight from the Theology Council etc, the fairly hard trouncing of anything resembling heresy and such.
I think what Gaven has previously said is needed is the big thing we really need: the original sin. It's the foundational part of the religion and we have no idea what it was. As it is, all we have is, "[something happened], causing mankind to split and the dark ages to happen."
-
It was boinking, wasn't it? Pre-marital boinking.
Down with this sort of thing.
-
Also, the Scriptures don't at all get away from RL tropes. When you have imagery in the Scriptures like the trumpets of Heaven, "God saw that it was (not) good," "In the beginning," angels, apocalypse, the ark, and the sefrim (based obviously on seraphim, complete with fire imagery), along with pseudo biblical language and book/verse notations, I can't say I find it being all that distant. Even hell gets a mention, in-game if not in the Scriptures. Abaddon is, afterall, another word for hell.
There is a difference between how it's worded, and the content itself. Of course everything is based on archetypes of what already exist, and that gives it flavour if handled properly.
However if we are just to accept everything to be a pale copy of the RL world, then we might well just make OOC RP trolls right and consider the Amarr religion to be the rightful successor of space catholic church.
Because why bother.
Never said to make things a pale copy of the RL world. Only that I disagree with the idea that the Amarr faith as presented is something apart from RL tropes.
Well I never said that too. I think we agree on the thing, I just don't like that article on death because it doesn't even really try to do something new like they most of the time do with the Amarr religion. I just find it trite and uninspired compared to the rest, and frankly underwhelming. But heh, that's just me.
As I see it, it is a lot closer to modern faith than most other fantasy universes. But I don't find that a bad thing. On the contrary it is one of the things that makes it very interesting to me, because it's something I can identify with as a religious person RL. I can't identify with the pantheistic, Greek-myth-inspired ones you see in most fantasy settings; I have no idea how to RP someone in that kind of faith (something shared by most of the writers, who inevitably roll with a henotheistic religion instead of a true pantheistic one).
That probably explains why. I am not a believer.
I didn't play Amarr as a mirror to RL where I can identify with my belief. I played it because... I don't know. Because it just happened that way I guess. But I kept playing it because I found it endearing as a lore. There is that old testament feel about apocalyptic things, a merciless neutral god/entity, about books and old knowledge and overall that mystical feel of the divine, sanctity, about a golden old and timeless empire and a book of emptiness, just standing there and creating a certain atmosphere of holy, mysterious, and dangerous that I could truly feel in the Amarr lore. Something I also find in the old roman and gothic architectures of RL churches and cathedrals.
But I don't deal with it with the eyes of a believer, which is completely different.
So yes, that explains why the differences in how we deal with it.
It's also funny how many RL believers play Amarr characters.
-
It's also funny how many RL believers play Amarr characters.
It's also funny how RL believers do NOT play Amarr characters.
When I was in faction war I remember a Minmatar player who always named her ships 'Jesus is Lord'. I was confused as to why someone would roleplay being a Christian, and then choose to be the enemy of the theocratic Amarrians.
Then in occurred to me. The Amarrian religion is NOT Christianity. In fact, it is far removed from it. There is no messiah, no message of peace, forgiveness or charity. In fact it seems the Amarrians believe and practice the exact opposite of what Jesus would have preached. If there were still Christians in EVE, they would be opposed to the Amarrian church.
I think the origins from the Universal Catholic Church were meant more as a role play guide rather than as a doctrine. It's not chocolate/ Catholic, but it's 'chocolate flavored'.
Similarly, we can imagine the Amarrian religion to be similar to what we know about the Catholic church, especially through the conquest and absorption of other cultures (Syncretism).
Consider the historical Catholic church that we know. The absorption of hundreds of other cultures has transformed the church in a myriad of ways. The Gods of Pagan Europe became transformed into Saints, the Voodoo rituals of Haitian slaves became absorbed into and accepted by Catholicism. The Catholic church in Africa is radically different from the one in Europe, since they permit dancing in the aisles during services.
Now, consider the thousands of unique and distinct cultures that were categorized under the umbrella of Catholicism on the planet Earth between the years 500 AD and 1500 AD. Everything from Odin worshiping Vikings to head hunting Celts to spirit worshiping Iroquois.
Consider that the New Orleans festival of Mardi Gras ('Fat Tuesday') is a Catholic festival, complete with mask wearing, bead tossing and tit flashing. It looks completely different from something such as Christmas mass in St. Peter's Cathedral, but they are both Catholic nonetheless.
Now, in the case of EVE, we are taking a presumably radical sect of Catholicism (or 'Universal Catholic', which is like saying 'chocolate flavored chocolate'), who are also presumably reactionary (as would be suggested by the name, 'the Conformists'). Not only do they conquer the indigenous people of their own planet, but they go on to conquer thousands of other planets as well. Hundreds of thousands of unique cultures spread over thousands of geographically unique areas and planets on the other side of the Galaxy.
Then of course, we should consider the time span. Comparing the religion of the Amarrians to the Catholic church of today would be a little like comparing the neolithic cult of the Cave bear to modern day Scientology.
That being said, would the Orthodox Amarrian religion believe in Hell, or even an afterlife?
There is a Yiddish expression, 'Two Jews, three opinions'. I think as Samira pointed out, you can belong to the same religion as someone else, yet have a very different opinion even on such matters as the main tenets of that religion.
Do Jews believe in afterlife? Well for one thing, Judaism isn't a 'death centered' religion, like Christianity or Buddhism are. Judaism is a 'life centered' religion, like Shintoism.
The focus of the Jewish religion is on how one should spend one's life. Death is another thing entirely. Some Jews believe in Heaven and Hell, and some Jews do not. It's in God's hands. No one knows. It isn't important.
In Christianity/ Buddhism/ Islam on the other hand, life is seen as a preparation for death, which leads to an eternity of reward (or punishment). Jesus died so you don't have to.
When I first joined EVE, I marvelled at the idea that there even was an Abrahamic religion some 20,000 years in the future. What is the sense of a religion which rewards one with the promise of eternal life in Heaven, when as capsuleers we live forever in outer space (i.e. 'The Heavens') regardless of what we do? As Yuri Gagarin said when he became the first man in space, 'I see no God up here.'
I wonder about such things as getting podded, an actual death, which leads not to the pearly gates of heaven or the brimstone pits of Hell, but merely to a re-awakening in a vat of goo in the same material realm one left behind momentarily.
Wouldn't this experience alone negate the belief in some kind of a Cartesian dualistic spirit realm of the Afterlife? If one is immortal through cloning technology, does the term 'Afterlife' even make any sense?
I imagined a cartoon about this actually.
A reverent and devout Amarrian Loyalist is shot down and podded by his Minmatar Pirate enemy in faction war.
There is the tunnel of light, as angels lift him and take him into heaven. He comes to stand at the pearly gates before St. Peter. His Grandmother and Grandfather, and pet furrier greet him through the gates.
St. Peter adjusts his spectacles as he reads from the book of life.
"Oh!" he says "I see you are a Navy man!"
The Amarrian rolls his eyes.
He wakes up gasping for air in a clone vat full of goo. The voice of his commanding officer shouts at him from a vidscreen to reship and return to battle. 'Just once' he thinks 'Couldn't I die permanently so I could see my Grandmother and Grandfather again?'
So, if the Amarrians believe in life after death, what is the point of his religion if he suffers the exact same fate as his Minmatar pirate enemy?
-
There are silent argument among Amarrian infomorphs as to whether or not they are already soul-less corpses whose spirits have already attained paradise, and they are simply parodies of what they once were, having made the ultimate sacrifice for their Empire.
Hell and "not in the presence of God" are two wholly different concepts; but to a believer, extrapolation of the idea of not being in the presence of god and thus in "paradise" could be considered 'eternal torment' - that whole stuck sitting outside of the wedding party in the darkness because your lamp is empty of oil blahblah new testament before Revelations and other firey bits.
I'm a pagan and polytheistic IRL. I play Amarr because I was asked on starting Eve, "What kind of guns do you want to shoot?" and in my mind, space-ships should have lasers. The reason was completely not RP-istic. (yay new word!)
And I wasn't trying to change the topic. Simply that "Hell" is a term thrown around by EoM far more than Blood Raiders / Sani Sabik.
-
And I wasn't trying to change the topic. Simply that "Hell" is a term thrown around by EoM far more than Blood Raiders / Sani Sabik.
Also by hardline types. Tetrimon for sure. Probably also more conservative groups in Amarr Orthodoxy, too.
I kind of find "Some Orthodox Amarr consider hell old fashioned, but other Amarr still fixate on the eternal damnation thing" to be a more interesting long term RP line than "Hell is a heresy."
Would be interesting to have Tash-Murkon types sortof get uncomfortable when people start throwing around the word, while Sarumites or Ardashapurites happily keep using it without noticing.
-
@ Jikahr : I hear your point and it's definitely interesting, and while I can probably agree with your classification of Judaism in life centered religions since I know close to nothing about abrahamic stuff, I can't agree with your classification of Shintoism in a life centered religion. To me it's both. it is true that the core tenet revolves around a respect for nature and the kami living inside. But it is also true that those kami follow the same karmic cycle of life, death and reincarnation found in buddhism.
There is a strong emphasis in other realms besides the mortal realm, like Yomi (the realm of all dead things).
And I wasn't trying to change the topic. Simply that "Hell" is a term thrown around by EoM far more than Blood Raiders / Sani Sabik.
Also by hardline types. Tetrimon for sure. Probably also more conservative groups in Amarr Orthodoxy, too.
I kind of find "Some Orthodox Amarr consider hell old fashioned, but other Amarr still fixate on the eternal damnation thing" to be a more interesting long term RP line than "Hell is a heresy."
Would be interesting to have Tash-Murkon types sortof get uncomfortable when people start throwing around the word, while Sarumites or Ardashapurites happily keep using it without noticing.
Well exactly ! That's how I tried to play it most of the time.
-
So, if the Amarrians believe in life after death, what is the point of his religion if he suffers the exact same fate as his Minmatar pirate enemy?
Well, for one the religion isn't -all- about preparation for death. Unlike Christianity there's nothing really secular about Amarr, no separation between church and state concept, so religion is still a major factor in the daily life of an Amarr character regardless of any afterlife. Plus, for religious people, the devotion and worship of God is usually more important than the promise of post-humous reward. It is about submission and service to God.
Additionally, as Arista said, there's debate between Amarr about cloning. It is the nation with the least respect for it, including having religious law outright prohibiting it for royalty, and many believe that clones are just empty shells with no souls. While some have taken on the belief that the soul migrates to the new clone, many don't believe that, probably especially among orthodox conservatives. A lot of Amarr players see their service as capsuleers as a personal sacrifice for Amarr. I think Amarr reluctance towards it is coincidentally well-represented in-game by the fact that there are fewer Amarr capsuleers than any other nation.
Also, even among capsuleers, there is always the option to permanently die. Just at a time of their choosing by canceling their clone contracts.
I think the origins from the Universal Catholic Church were meant more as a role play guide rather than as a doctrine. It's not chocolate/ Catholic, but it's 'chocolate flavored'.
Personally, this is a bit that I just outright ignore. Amarr, while having themes and references to Abrahamic religions, is certainly not a continuation or replica of any of them. It's its own thing, with its own beliefs and customs and tenets. I am able to identify with it because it is still a monotheistic religion with obvious Abrahamic inspirations, which makes it more familiar for me than many other religions in fiction, but definitely not to the point of viewing it as "space catholicism" or anything like that.
-
You guys are making me want to start playing my Amarr character more. These discussions just do not happen anymore for Caldari (or Gallente, for that matter). Hmm...maybe I should rethink which accounts I keep active.
-
You guys are making me want to start playing my Amarr character more. These discussions just do not happen anymore for Caldari (or Gallente, for that matter). Hmm...maybe I should rethink which accounts I keep active.
I noticed that 'culture' like this seemed particularly thin for/in the Gallente RP (which might be why Intaki RP appears to be fine), which makes it pretty hard to be someone that has any traditionalism - or discussions like this, or is 'past' traditionalism, or any stance at all...
I'm gonna get out before I derail the thread, since the Amarr discussion is neat (and on topic), but I'll just leave this here with you that it bugs me as well that Gallente culture itself gets passed over the certain specific way it does. ;) CCP's given us some reasonably exotic hints but I think generally, people (including, possibly, CCP themselves) easily fall into the same simplified traps. More elaborate PF would help us out, but they're concentrating on their current thing at the moment, rather than fleshing out the 'ordinary'. (Though Source had a bit more to say at least, and that was recent) If that's all they have time to do then I guess that just falls to us, which is its own kind of fun if they're gonna leave it to us then.
I wrote this long rant this one time about the above, but I never posted it because ffff-- ahh whatever. It was good to think it through though. ...Then I wrote something based on this http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=604.0 because I wasn't actually done being annoyed apparently /laugh
I never posted that either, ...but I guess if people are willing to leave Gallente RP/never join it in the first place because of the above, it can't hurt at this point... :|?
/rolls back into lurkmode
-
To find stuff about the true gallente culture you have to really look for it since CCP just spends its time telling "it's gallente melting pot so it can be anything so I won't go into any details". But you have a few hard facts on Garoun culture, etc, and more generally the gallente demographics articles, which also tell a bit about the Mannar and the likes.
But eventually there is a lot about political activism, idealist groups and overall a very agitated/boiling society that form a stark contrast with the pompous calm and austerity of the Amarr.
Ah and there are also the article on the different cities in gallente space (alpha, beta, gamma, etc), which is probably the most awesomesauce article that came to world build the gallente, and even one of the most awesomesauce PF article ever. It tells a lot more than what it seems to tell about gallente society, with broad strokes giving a nice overview of what can be found inside.
-
[/quote] I wrote this long rant this one time about the above, but I never posted it because ffff-- ahh whatever. It was good to think it through though. ...Then I wrote something based on this http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=604.0 because I wasn't actually done being annoyed apparently /laugh
I never posted that either, ...but I guess if people are willing to leave Gallente RP/never join it in the first place because of the above, it can't hurt at this point... :|?
/rolls back into lurkmode
[/quote]
Wow, that Pantheon of Gods is awesome! I love the names, and it's interesting that they are named after the moons of Gallente Prime.
There was another poster who mentioned the Chinese 'helpful spirits' and 'hurtful daemons'. I think that would fit in well with Gallente culture as well.
I tend to think of the Gallente as being 'The Jetsons' as well as 'Space Hippies'.
As it is, the way I think of Gallente culture is, in a word 'French'.
Prime fiction says that the Gallente culture was started by Frenchmen from Tau Ceti, so it's pretty hard for me not to lump the Gallente into whatever stereotypes/ tropes I might personally have about IRL French culture.
Which for me means the movie 'Barbarella' and Mobius (Jean Giraud)& Jorodowsky's graphic novel 'The Incal.'
I'm rather fond of Fonda, and so a seedy society of scantily clad women, hedonism and drugs seems like a natural fit if somewhat cliche rendition of Gallente society.
If you are unfamiliar, the story and the artwork of the Incal light is a little long and well....'mind blowing'.
The Techno-priests were pretty interesting to me, and perhaps part of my reason for gravitating to Amarr. I also tend to think of the Amarrians as being like the Necromongers from 'The Chronicles of Riddick'.
http://www.pinterest.com/andrewblodgett/art-moebius/
The story of the Incal light revolves around John DiFool, a lazy loser who likes to smoke cigars and have sex with robots. He discovers/ receives the Incal light, and suddenly becomes the most wanted/ hunted man in the Galaxy.
This is also how I picture Gallente culture. They are the most intellectual of the four factions. The Amarrians are too rigid, the Caldari too venal, the Minmatar too emotion driven to develop the facilities of sombre and reflective free thought.
As a Democratic society, they have a problem with stirring their own citizens out of hedonism and apathy. More people would rather be Art history majors than capsuleers.
However, as pontificating intellectuals the Gallente would also excel at things such as science, exploration, and especially archaeology...with archaeology/ wormholes/ relics being a huge thing in EVE right now.
John DiFool's discovery of the Incal light is a part of the mythic cycle of Joseph Campbell's 'monomyth', the idea that the myths and stories of all cultures have one common root. Hollywood certainly uses this idea of the monomyth, which is especially noticeable in Star Wars.
In DiFool's case, he starts out as the 'reluctant hero'. If one lives a life of luxury in Gallente society, where is the motivation to change? The discovery of the Incal light is the 'call to adventure', which he refuses, then accepts, etc.
http://changingminds.org/disciplines/storytelling/plots/hero_journey/hero_journey.htm
In my mind at least, a Gallente archaeologist who discovered something that would unhinge Amarrian society (i.e. the Apocrypha) would suddenly be the most talked about/ admired/ despised person in EVE. Well, at least in the sense of roleplay.
Here is the Metabaron, one of the characters from Jodorowsky's story 'The Incal'. The character reminds me a lot of the Khanid cyberknights, which Silas just wrote an extensive piece about. The Metabarons are a little more like Samurai rather than European Knights, but this works in well when one considers that the Caldari have a Japanese-esque culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabarons
Oh yes, and this is pretty much how I picture all of EVE.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4Vkyzrs1Fk
-
[mod]Just a split from Naup's thread for the Hell discussion.[/mod]
-
A) "Universal Catholic Church"
Nowhere does the PF say that or even indicate as much as the Universal Catholic Church having anything to do with the Roman Catholic Church. There is no Universal Catholic Church IRL and actually the name in itself is a bit weird (given that catholic pretty much means 'universal'; so it's the "universal 'universal' church").
There is no reason whatsoever given explicitly by PF to assume that Amarr religion developed from Roman Catholicism or any other Abrahamic religion.
B) The Concept of Hell in Amarr religion
PF is kind'a unclear on this and can be interpreted to be rather divided in regard to whether Hell exists or not in Amarr reliogion.
Still, I think it is reasonable to try to interprete PF in a way that reconciles different snippets maximally. If one tries that, then it is reasonable to assume - in my opinion - that there is metaphorical language involved in descriptions of Hell. If one accepts that assumption, then it is not hard to accept that Hell is talked about - metaphorically - as a place of 'fire and brimstone', while Amarr still maintain that it doesn't really have 'existence': Meaning that Hell isn't something that is, but rather something that is not - a state of deficiency or deficient state. Hell is not nor can it be positively defined then, but rather can only be defined in relation to its antonym 'Paradise' and then pointing out were hell lacks qualities of 'paradise'.
This would mean there are two different ways of talking about Hell in Amarr religion: A metaphorical one that talks about Hell as if it is something that exists, e.g. an actual place with certain physical features on the one hand. On the other hand there would be a more philosophical way which would identify Hell as something that doesn't exists ontologically, but which can be pointed out by comparing an imperfect state to the ideal.
Just my two cents.
-
Personally speaking I like the fact that the PF is vague about this concept. Whether intentional or not I think this allows for a breadth of interpretations a la literalist and figurative interpretations much like in current Christian debate circles.
The advantage of course being that here it creates content and doesn't actually gamble our immortal souls (I kid.)
It allows characters like Nauplius to channel Wesboro-esque fire and brim stone to exist in the same world as more critical theologians like Nico for example.
And more importantly it allows for a debate like this to happen IC'ly instead of backstage.
-
Isn't it the Unified Catholic Church ?
On the other hand there would be a more philosophical way which would identify Hell as something that doesn't exists ontologically, but which can be pointed out by comparing an imperfect state to the ideal.
I had difficulties to tell exactly that as simply as it is.
-
Isn't it the Unified Catholic Church ?
True, actually makes more sense like that, too! (And points to some religious unification movement on Terra, of which extent we are left in the dark - as well as who exactly was 'unified' here.)
P.S.:
It's also funny how many RL believers play Amarr characters.
I don't think that 'believers' make up a bigger percentage of Amarr than Caldari or gallente/Matari players. Actually, I see a lot of neopagans in the Matari department. What is different is - especially in the RP community, I suppose - whether 'believers' are willing to voice and stand up in regard to their beliefs. If you play Amarr and are practicing Christian, for example, you will be confronted with a lot of people conflating Amarr religion and Christianity - aka 'space catholicism'. Chances are high that if you're a Christian, that this will impinge on your sensibilities. If you aren't stepping up there, then, there's little possibility to vent the frustration and get things straight, I guess.
If you're a Christain and play, say, a Caldari you just stay away from the bunch that is anti-religious and do you thing. No need to get public with you beliefs on the internet, there, really.
-
Oh well, it's more a personal experience that has shown that most Amarr players I knew are RL believers. But then, I didn't ask to players of other factions though. I tend to forget that atheists are actually a small minority in the world.
-
Personally speaking I like the fact that the PF is vague about this concept. Whether intentional or not I think this allows for a breadth of interpretations a la literalist and figurative interpretations much like in current Christian debate circles.
The advantage of course being that here it creates content and doesn't actually gamble our immortal souls (I kid.)
It allows characters like Nauplius to channel Wesboro-esque fire and brim stone to exist in the same world as more critical theologians like Nico for example.
And more importantly it allows for a debate like this to happen IC'ly instead of backstage.
I agree with this, and I think it's intentional. The 'sandbox' of EVE naturally extends to religion as well. The Unified Catholic Church was just meant to give us an outline, a trope, a rough hewn example of the kind of religion that Amarrians worship.
It's monotheistic and Imperialistic. It's capable of the greatest of atrocities as well as the noblest of humanitarian acts. It's the Spanish Inquisition and the scholarly Monasteries. It's comparable to the Catholic church of medieval Europe in the same way that a Minmatar Rifter is comparable with a catamaran sailboat.
The concept of Hell as an actual place of fire and brimstone certainly gives Naupilius his opportunity to springboard into some very dynamic and active roleplay which everyone seems to enjoy. Naupilus has invested a lot of his EVE isk and RL time researching the role for the enrichment of the EVE Roleplay community as a whole, so why look a gifted Slaver hound in the mouth?
It's also plausible that there are hundreds if not thousands of different perspectives within the Orthodox Amarrian religion itself about the existence of Hell.
There are, after all, hundreds of thousands of planets with perhaps millions of Indigenous cultures with their own religions and philosophies, all of which have been absorbed into the Amarr Empire.
A person or persons would not stop believing in their own myths, heroes, and view of the afterlife, simply because their own culture and Government was crushed by an overwhelming Military force. African slaves did not forget their native religions when brought to America, they simply integrated them with those of their Masters.
The most important aspect(s) of the Orthodox Amarrian religion seems to be submission to authority and the sanctity of flesh.
Also of course, Naupilius is Sani Sabik and not Orthodox. There are thousands of different sects of Sani Sabik. So, if there were a thousand different Blood Raider role players, each one could have a different interpretation in the form of their own sect, and technically none of them would be 'incorrect'.
-
A person or persons would not stop believing in their own myths, heroes, and view of the afterlife, simply because their own culture and Government was crushed by an overwhelming Military force. African slaves did not forget their native religions when brought to America, they simply integrated them with those of their Masters.
Yes, for sure. While Amarr tries very hard to crush the foreign influences, hence the generational slavery, and they are very successful at it due to how long the slave families remain enslaved (far longer than most IRL), some of it still gets through and sticks. Ni-Kunni rituals are a noted one, and Source goes into a Minmatar-Amarr hybrid religion developed by some slaves that incorporates pantheism, communal meditation, and ritual sacrifices, which is obviously considered heretical by the Amarr. I thought that was one of the coolest things that Source added. And we already know that the Starkmanir have a heretical church based around St. Arzad, and the Ammatar had their own church which probably included Matari aspects (considering that they explicitly named their new domain "San-Matar"). Kameiras also have retained some Matari traits.
That cultural and religious dualism is something I've loved playing with on Samira.
-
Actually, I don't think that Amarr tries that hard to crush foreign infuences per se. It really depends on the aspects that a certain culture brings along.The polytheism/henotheism of the Ni-Kunni had to be replaced by a much more strict monotheism, sure. Their water rituals? They are OK as long as they are purged of the unwanted aspects. Same with the Khanid: They were able to keep to a lot of their traditions, given they integrated them in the Amarr frame.
Also there is no need to look at Afircan slaves for heterogenity in Christianity. The Roman Catholicism comprises next to the western 'main' Church 22 autonomous eastern Rite churches. Not only that: Within the Western Roman Catholic sphere there exist many regional varieties in theology and liturgy, from the Mozarabic rite to the monastic Benedictine rite over the various variations of the ordinary Roman rite to the eastern rites of the 22easten catholic churches.
There's always this idea in the EVE-RP scene, it appears to me, that deviation of any sort is already heresy and slavery is meant to extinguish all deviation. While a) in truth most religions allow for quite a large are of acceptable heterodoxy/-praxy and b) Amarr seem very aware that they can't simply eradicate entire cultures and aim instead to incorporate them in a way that allows to keep features the Amarr look at favourably (e.g. they like the artistical bent of Ni-Kunni culture, as it means they have specialists for those tasks) while subdueing and eventually eliminating the parts they deem unfit.
It is more that just hinted at that this is what happened with the Udorian culture as it was assimilated: Eventually ending up shaping Amarrian culture in a lot of aspects as it was integrated pretty much seamlessly.
-
The Recess Cultural Center ! 8)
-
Actually, I don't think that Amarr tries that hard to crush foreign infuences per se. It really depends on the aspects that a certain culture brings along.
Well yes, it would certainly depend on what the aspect is and whether it can mesh with the existing culture.
There's always this idea in the EVE-RP scene, it appears to me, that deviation of any sort is already heresy and slavery is meant to extinguish all deviation. While a) in truth most religions allow for quite a large are of acceptable heterodoxy/-praxy and b) Amarr seem very aware that they can't simply eradicate entire cultures and aim instead to incorporate them in a way that allows to keep features the Amarr look at favourably (e.g. they like the artistical bent of Ni-Kunni culture, as it means they have specialists for those tasks) while subdueing and eventually eliminating the parts they deem unfit.
I wasn't trying to say that it was a 100% thing or that Amarr counts anything not-orthodox as instantly heresy. There's good quotes in both Book of Emptiness and Source that say as much. There's also several heterodox branches of the faith that we know about already--Salvation Church, Ammatar Church, Khanid Church (ish, was heretical for a long while so lots of people probably still consider it poorly), and I would imagine there's lots lots more. Even Tetrimon tends to drop in and out of acceptance.
Can't say I agree in regards to the slavery thing though. Getting people to convert doesn't take all that long at all, and they don't release people just for converting. Eliminating as much of the foreign culture as possible seems to me like it would be one of the main justifications for keeping people in chains for so long and not simply releasing everyone as soon as they convert. Afterall, they ban Matari tattoo practices despite the fact that Amarr themselves regularly wear face tattoos. And it's said many times that they were intentionally trying to, and successfully did, eliminate much of Matari culture. Arzad's acceptance of and desire to learn more about Matari culture was a deviance.
There's also this story (http://goldendaydreams.com/stories.php?s=12) from Eterne's non-official stuff that I find very potent on that front.
I would think that acceptance of some foreign elements happens more with free allies rather than with slaves. The Khanid and the Ammatar weren't really enslaved, nor the Caldari, and the Ni-Kunni were only enslaved for a little while, because the Minmatar came along and replaced them, so their culture hadn't managed to all fade from collective memory yet. So for all of those there was more incentive to try and tolerate the aspects that didn't disagree with Amarr culture. Hence Amarr-Minmatar Culture Center for the Ammatar. But for those who are enslaved I would think the culture is written off entirely because it's deemed as something corruptive and dangerous to slave and society, and from an indoctrination perspective you need to eliminate the ability of the slave to find strength and solidarity in things separate from their masters so that they are forced to be reliant on their masters. Only a few things are accepted, and then only grudgingly for favored and important servants, like Kameira funeral pyres and ash tattoos which are officially banned but usually just ignored. But of course, some things might be ignored just because the owner doesn't care, or things otherwise just manage to slip through.
-
i feel stupid now, for not knowing that Eterne was Yoshito.
really stupid.
-
That Samira, is what I call the new PF. It's more categorical, black and white, and overall, has set or reversed limits and clarifications on things that were more... subtle in the past. Can't really bring up quotes and articles obviously, but that's mostly my personal experience. There are actually a lot of counter examples to "the Amarr tried to erase every bit of Matari culture". I wasn't citing the Amarr-Minmatar Cultural Recess above for nothing. There was once a LOT of stuff revolving around the Ammatar and how they represented a mix between the Amarr and Matari culture.
I may be a bit seeing too far into it but I have always held that view that while the Amarr enslaved the Matari, as most other races before they didn't really try to erase every bit of culture those had. I mean, most other races either joined willingly out of admiration and pride (like the Khanid) and so embraced it willingly, or where technologically so inferior that the Amarr descending from the skies in huge arks of wonders would probably have been seen as near gods. As for the Udorians, even if there was a long wars against them upon generation, they have actually had a huge impact and transformation of the Amarr society from the inside, which mean that the Amarr Reclamation was not so much about the cultural aftertaste, but just about the conquest itself.
Then came the Matari, which was a little bit bigger to chew since they were also a space faring society, albeit less technologically advanced. They proved to be a new challenge and difficulty for the Amarr that while they had that huge reclaiming experience, had not very much experience in actually shaping and erasing a strong culture that actually dared to resist. Well obviously they tried to eradicate a lot of its tenets that were the most 'dangerous'. It is said clearly in PF that a lot of Matari history has been carefully erased from all archives.
However I think there are a few subtle hints that I actually consider as very revealing about the Amarr integration process after having reclaimed a culture. While the Udorians are here to prove it, there is also the case of the Ammatar Mandate. While the Amarr had to suddenly face a culture that was so hard to integrate and tame to their Faith, they also saw in the Ammatar a way to prove that they could actually integrate the Matari culture into the Amarr Faith, and brandished that new cultural construct as a proof of the success of the Reclaiming of yet another culture that now thrived under its own faith and differences, but united under God. The Ammatar case in itself was the direct response to the Matari rebellion, as a slap in their face as to show that their reclaiming was definitely not a failure, far from it, and that yet again, it worked.
As for the Udorians, but even more in this case, I think that trend that is maybe not initially intended with each Reclaiming, is actually a good hint at how the Amarr like (or are content with) puppet cultures retaining their exotic flavour and still following the main tenets of the Scriptures, all in fear and devotion to God, yadayada. Much like the western world was very found of everything that followed their culture and came from exotic nation during the colonial times, if you will, though the analogy sounds a bit weird to me.
Also, the Book of Emptiness chronicle as I recall it, was a direct and clear hint at the religious tolerance and hunger for everything new and ground breaking related to their beliefs, but that, of course, under extreme cautions (cf the guy that actually guards the theologian/archaeologist and the duality they form, that's a direct metaphor for the duality between the dogma and the enlightenment of the amarr society).