Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Julianus Soter on 23 Dec 2010, 08:16
-
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1435878
"As most of you know, Kumhbelaa has begun, and will continue for eleven days."
I'm curious as to the rationale for this sort of couching of user-generated information. Anyone from the IPI want to share?
-
Immersion?
I had a really good article (http://www.arcadianewsnetwork.net/?p=452) on it submitted, so I'm happy to roll with it.
-
Could you elaborate on the immersion aspect a bit?
-
Eh. It's a big cluster. I imagine there are a lot of various holidays and festivities.
-
Is there someplace in EVE fiction that patently invalidates the concept?
Is your crusade against anything CCP didn't specifically make themselves yet provides enjoyment to many ever going to end?
How does this one personally inconvenience you?
What absurd doomsday scenario do you envision taking place this time?
It is a holiday celebration, you couldn't be more of a Scrooge about this.
-
And in none of your post was there any reference to the outstanding question at hand for this thread. What benefit is it to immersion to claim that everyone knows about a piece of player-created information?
-
are you saying it should not have said "As most of you know", but instead "As many of you may know" ?
-
And in none of your post was there any reference to the outstanding question at hand for this thread. What benefit is it to immersion to claim that everyone knows about a piece of player-created information?
I'm at a loss to figure out why this needs to be explained to you.
Cultural celebrations happen.
Cultural celebrations happening in EVE is therefor more reflective of real life.
Was that hard?
-
[mod]From the FAQ:
Q: What's the difference between debate and argument? A: Debate or discussion involves people putting forward their ideas and opinions. Argument is when people start fighting over whose ideas or opinions are 'right'. For example, if you find yourself responding to a post with anything along the lines of 'You're wrong, because...', stop and think. Don't sit there working out what's wrong with someone else's idea. Propose your own, and tell us all the ways in which it's awesome. Everybody wins a discussion: nobody wins an argument.Q: So I can't disagree with anyone's RP? A: Sure you can disagree. Just do it politely, I'll even venture to say nicely, and remember that they have as much right to their opinion as you have to yours. For example: Player A writes: "I see the Intaki as space hippies." Player B answers: "Of course they aren't space hippies, there are no hippies in Eve." That would be the WRONG way to answer. The RIGHT way would be something like "Really? I see the Intaki as more techno-buddhists. That's how I play my character, but hey, it's a big Cluster, right?"
Undermining people's ideas for the sake of it, rather than pointing out valid options and posting constructively, violates the guidelines for this site. Further problems will result in moderation of posts in this thread.[/mod]
-
Clarifying my point to Louella. A person logs into IGS, begins reading threads. They click on the one in question. The preamble of the thread indicates that the player's character knows about the festival, even if the player does not. This is a imposition that only the owners of the universe can apply to us. They create the universe, and they set the bounds of what our characters know or can know through context, prime fiction, and other information.
In this situation, the character implies that this is prime fiction information known to characters, and that if they do not, they are ignorant of basic common cultural practices in the universe. Is it any different from saying that you've punched someone in the face at the bar, or used nanobots to infect a CEO and take over his brain? In each circumstance, you surprise the player by imparting a new constriction to their character's universe, either by imparting injury or commanding their actions.
It is because of these observations that I have made my questions to the IPI and other creators of this thread on the IGS.
-
And in none of your post was there any reference to the outstanding question at hand for this thread. What benefit is it to immersion to claim that everyone knows about a piece of player-created information?
This is far fromthe first "player created" holiday, and I'm sure it will not be the last. For example, Vaden Khale created one called Sabikannen (sp?) that, even though he doesn't play anymore, is still noted/observed by some other Sani Sabik characters now.
He's not claiming every single person everywhere knows, you're taking things a bit too literally; recommeded cure, have a beer.
-
Not addressing the original point, but in regards to the actual holiday...a bit of food for thought and suggestion
Why would it be set around the RL holiday season? The Intaki calendar probably didn't use the modern day one until it was agreed internationally, so there likely wouldn't be any correlation to the RL Christmas season. I think only the Amarrians would have something in relation to Christmas IMO.
-
I doubt the Intaki (or anyone else) would have only one holiday, so there's also nothing to suggest that they couldn't have something that happened to coincide with the Old Earth solstice celebrations by chance.
-
The preamble of the thread indicates that the player's character knows about the festival, even if the player does not.
It does not remotely say that.
Somehow you read the words "As you, the reader of this posting, are obviously aware..." when what was written is literally "as most of you know." If anything, it is a fault of Mammal Tafren, the character, in being a (tiny) bit presumptive. Being raised an Intaki, of course he has the outlook that "most" people know about Kuhmbelaa. That just further leads to immersion because again, we run into this kind of anecdotal outlook all the time.
This is a imposition that only the owners of the universe can apply to us. They create the universe, and they set the bounds of what our characters know or can know through context, prime fiction, and other information.
This isn't your issue with it, its the vaporous construct you're hiding behind to justify your righteous indignation. If you really felt this way, there'd be about 500 more posts from you tearing down every last player-created idea put forward.
(voluntary removal of non-constructive words)
In this situation, the character implies that this is prime fiction information known to characters, and that if they do not, they are ignorant of basic common cultural practices in the universe.
The character implies it.
So talk to the character about it rather than creating yet another "ur doin it wrung" OOC post.
Also, again, nowhere does it even remotely imply that "if you don't know about Kuhmbelaa, you must be ignorant". I've heard of fishing for compliments, this is fishing for insults.
Is it any different from saying that you've punched someone in the face at the bar, or used nanobots to infect a CEO and take over his brain? In each circumstance, you surprise the player by imparting a new constriction to their character's universe, either by imparting injury or commanding their actions.
Yes, it is entirely and completely different. Equating someone saying "as most of you know, holiday x is coming up" with punching a person in the face takes an incredible leap of reasoning.
How is this holiday being celebrated "constricting" your RP at all? You have a real penchant for claiming injury without proving it. What activity was it you were intending to engage in that has now been denied you because of this?
If we could understand how this injures your RP experience in some more constructive way, it could actually get addressed. But as long as it stays in the form of False Equivalency and Slippery Slope fallacies, there is no solution at hand.
-
Not addressing the original point, but in regards to the actual holiday...a bit of food for thought and suggestion
Why would it be set around the RL holiday season? The Intaki calendar probably didn't use the modern day one until it was agreed internationally, so there likely wouldn't be any correlation to the RL Christmas season. I think only the Amarrians would have something in relation to Christmas IMO.
It is on every 5th 600 some-odd day years.
It has nothing to do with RL Christmas.
-
Not addressing the original point, but in regards to the actual holiday...a bit of food for thought and suggestion
Why would it be set around the RL holiday season? The Intaki calendar probably didn't use the modern day one until it was agreed internationally, so there likely wouldn't be any correlation to the RL Christmas season. I think only the Amarrians would have something in relation to Christmas IMO.
It is on every 5th 600 some-odd day years.
It has nothing to do with RL Christmas.
Syylara is right, the coincidence with Christmas this time was really just a coincidence. Kuhmbelaa won't happen again until sometime like 2018. That means for most of us, this is probably a one-time shot. I don't know that I'll still be playing Eve that far into the future.
As for stepping on some people's toes by creating content: I'M NOT SORRY AND I WON'T TAKE IT BACK.
When I started generating this content I said I was putting it out there for people to use if they wanted to play with me and to ignore if they did not. A lot more people than I expected got behind it and that makes me happy. Levi has been writing "news" articles to help breathe a bit more life into the sketches I created and Bruno has picked up the torch and is shining light onto a number of Gallente settlements.
CCP staff is aware of much of what we've created in terms of the Intaki backstory. I have personal RL e-mails between me and them to prove it. They haven't committed to anything, but said they would keep the material in mind when they get to fleshing out the bloodlines. I'm not holding my breath or anything, but they certainly didn't tell me I was doing it wrong.
-
Not addressing the original point, but in regards to the actual holiday...a bit of food for thought and suggestion
Why would it be set around the RL holiday season? The Intaki calendar probably didn't use the modern day one until it was agreed internationally, so there likely wouldn't be any correlation to the RL Christmas season. I think only the Amarrians would have something in relation to Christmas IMO.
It is on every 5th 600 some-odd day years.
It has nothing to do with RL Christmas.
Oh really? That's pretty awesome then. I'll do my background reading before commenting next time :P
And yeah, once again, I'm with everyone else on this matter.
-
Its a planetary holiday.
Kudos to the creator of some non-offensive, interesting content generation.
If you don't want to acknowledge it, hell, your character could ICly refuse to acknowledge the holiday for personal reasons, if you need to rationalize it fully.
Simple as that.
-
"As most of you know, Kumhbelaa has begun, and will continue for eleven days."
"Huh. I actually had no idea."
/problem
-
Good Job Saxon and IPI, EvE needs more content like this.. not just I pewpew them because they are different.
-
If you don't want to acknowledge it, hell, your character could ICly refuse to acknowledge the holiday for personal reasons, if you need to rationalize it fully.
Or maybe they don't celebrate it where your character (Intaki or not) is from - maybe they have different traditions or different calendar altogether?
Consider that not everybody on contemporary Earth celebrates Christmas or Ramandan or Autumn Equinox or Labor Day. And even those who do observe a holiday may do so on different ways. Can you find a holiday everybody on Earth observes at the same time, in a same way?
In my opinion there is plenty of room for everybody to play together as long as players remember that making up stuff for other player's characters without the player's consent is impolite and that in a big cluster/system/planet universal traditions are few and far between.
I am not familiar with Saxon's/IPI's stuff, but I read this on IGS as an offer to interact, for Intaki characters to talk about their traditions.
-
I am not familiar with Saxon's/IPI's stuff, but I read this on IGS as an offer to interact, for Intaki characters to talk about their traditions.
For the uninitiated (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1219.0).
-
Being that I wrote the original post, I should probably respond.
I'm not sure I fully understand Soter's objection. If it's to my wording - "As most of you know..." that was an invitation, as Isobel said, for other Intaki characters to interact, make up some stories and get in on the fun. It wasn't meant to be, and isn't, frankly, any of the negative things you suggest.
If we can't make up content that isn't CCP sanctioned, it makes this a pretty beige experience, and I agree that it is a fine line, but there's nothing particularly offensive about Kumhbelaa, or anything that conflicts with your character, so I'm not sure what the big deal is.
That being said, I appreciate the people who have responded positively and got in on it. And it's great sharing of RP.
I love the collaborative nature of the RP - Art created Kumhbelaa as a response to discussion about the Intaki calendar with Saxon. I developed some stuff on the IGS. Ken responded, bring up some stuff from a story of mine. It's all collaborative
And I like it.
-
And I like it.
Here, here!
Art
-
I have lost count of the number of speeches I have heard over the years or opinion articles I have read over the years that use the phrase 'as most of you know' or 'as most of you are aware'. It's a common rhetorical device that allows the author/ speaker to state information that some of the audience are unaware of without patronizing those members who know it already.
The idea that a character using this phrase constitutes 'god-modding' by the player is not one I can agree with.
-
I've been on both sides of this dance lately, and I have to say, the steps are easier when you're on Saxon's side. Simon's response IC is pretty representative of how I feel; what I'm working on developing is it's own thing that may or may not overlap with what Saxon is doing and that's cool.
-
Saisieni and Namas:
For those of you that haven't done so already, you should head over to the Free Intaki Forums (of the Intaki Liberation Front), specifically the thread on "Intaki Calendar" (unfortunately I don't have the link, as I'm posting from my blackberry).
The issue of the eleven-day holiday arose over the Intaki V planetary year being 602.2 days long. The eleven-day month was created as a correction to the calendar, which would be off by the corresponding amount after a period of five years (provided that each month on Intaki V were 30 days long). We took advantage of this variance to create a celebration unique to Intaki V. More technecalities are considered in the above-cited forum. However, it might very well be the case that especially those Intaki not born and raised on Intaki V, would not care much about Kumhbelaa; perhaps their parents or grandparents (or ancestors) would have been the ones to observe the celebration.
My thoughts, however, are that if we were to depend on CCP to create all content for our universe, then it really isn't OUR universe then. In fact, my philosophy is that they want us to - within reason - inject our thoughts, experiences, etc, into the EVE experience...perhaps those are my Caldari capitalistic genes speaking.
Speaking OOC...I assume we all have paying accounts with CCP...that being the case...we all contribute in many ways in the manipulation of the EVE universe, and really...EVE would not exist in its current form without our contributions. RPing and world-building is going to happen - even outside that produced via CCP canon. And that makes the world of EVE ever-more richer than without this input. Like it or not.
Just my humble thoughts.
Rikiaato and namas,
Art
-
are you saying it should not have said "As most of you know", but instead "As many of you may know" ?
My 2 cents: while I do not consider the "most of you" such a wildly inappropriate thing to do, I do think that "as many of you may know" would have been OOCly more polite to other players.
First requires that I need to make a decision: 1) accept the suggestion that my character also thinks "most of us" know this, 2) question the posting character's idea of of what "most" know and think him/her a pompous ass for presuming that his/her customs are The Customs, or 3) declare my character belonging to a minority that does not know stuff that "everyone else" knows.
While any of those decisions are pretty easy and valid (and so this is not a big problem), phrasing it as "as many of you may know" does not require me to more than to decide if my character does or does not know. Whether "most" capsuleers know will be the sum of these decisions made. And so it feels more inviting: I can interact with the festival itself without having to take a stance on how common it is in the world in general.
It's not a choice between "just play whatever CCP has confirmed" and "make stuff up for ourselves". That's a false dichotomy.
You can make stuff up without assuming everyone (or most people) in the universe know about it. In general, I would advice against trying to define "stuff all X know about". It is fun and necessary to write background, but as you will never be able to distribute your background to all players of the race in question, it is much easier and more respectful to define "stuff some X subscribe to" and let people decide for themselves when they first run into it if they want to accomodate it, or invent something else, or keep stuff they invented already to contradict it. That also allows you to play with more people. If you define something as "the X way most if not all X know about", and someone else somewhere else had defined something contradictory as "the X way most if not all X know about", you cannot very easily play together.
For Matari this is easy: we can always do stuff for our clans, rather than a tribe or "Minmatar" in general. But then again, the EVE universe is huge, and races span whole planets. There's room for local variations for every race.
I am not sure if I explain this very well...
-
Every major civilization could have many festivities, its natural.
Congratz on kuhmbelaa, i hope to see you all in the celebrations of Federation Day around June :P
-
My 2 cents: while I do not consider the "most of you" such a wildly inappropriate thing to do, I do think that "as many of you may know" would have been OOCly more polite to other players.
First requires that I need to make a decision: 1) accept the suggestion that my character also thinks "most of us" know this, 2) question the posting character's idea of of what "most" know and think him/her a pompous ass for presuming that his/her customs are The Customs, or 3) declare my character belonging to a minority that does not know stuff that "everyone else" knows.
This is pretty much the meat of my prior disagreement with Saxon. Luckily, Simon is from a minority group and he's been interpreting the ILF's continued pushing of 'the' Intaki culture as part of a broader agenda of theirs that he generally opposes. And, since that phrase was IC, it feeds Simon's viewpoint perfectly, so I have nothing to complain about ;)
-
When I see Kuhmbelaa, I can't help but think Chumpawumba
-
This is pretty much the meat of my prior disagreement with Saxon. Luckily, Simon is from a minority group and he's been interpreting the ILF's continued pushing of 'the' Intaki culture as part of a broader agenda of theirs that he generally opposes. And, since that phrase was IC, it feeds Simon's viewpoint perfectly, so I have nothing to complain about ;)
Well, yes.
My current IC interpretation of the ILF is that they are pompous asses trying to push their culture as THE Intaki culture because it would suit their political agenda to have a unified culture like that. This is because I know too many Intaki IC who do not share that idea of the Intaki culture, or if they have even heard about it, think it is a minority, so what else am I to think? This poses me no RP problems whatsoever, and the "as most of you know" would have made me just roll my eyes IC, had I actually happened to read it. ;)
The problem is I do not think the players who invent the Intaki cultural stuff actually want this; they would prefer me to interact with them about it rather than dismiss it, and to be honest, I'd sometimes like that better too. It's just these choices of words both IC and OOC that define this as "the" Intaki culture make it difficult - I think Isobel said it well in another thread: this sort of stuff (defining cultural norms for a whole race) should be opt-in, not opt-out.
-
Why is this being overanalyzed? It's a fictitious holiday created to expand the culture and have fun with RP. The wording choices are completely irrelevant. Not to mention it's been almost two weeks since this even commenced.
-
If you have a different vision of a culture than what someone spent time and effort putting together, offer your own ideas. You can't respond to the general question "what are you for" with "not that". There's no discussion to have at that point, no room for growth, compromise, or collaboration.
Beyond that, it seems like people want to focus more on half of a sentence that really had nothing to do with the event/idea itself at all and just want to twist words into a way to attack the creators as somehow OOCly "forcing" these ideas onto others when, in fact, you were all free to take it or leave it as you pleased. Acting like the words "as most of you know" somehow robs you of the ability to do that is absurd. On the one hand you justify your characters not knowing as a result of their anecdotal experiences, yet somehow can't apply the same reasoning that perhaps Mammal's anecdotal experience is that most people he knows do, instead insisting this somehow lends credibility to a narrative of overbearing forcefulness on the part of an entire interest group.
Finally, don't come on here and OOCly state your characters had some kind of problem with this when they never said so IC (or even made supportive IC statements). Don't hide behind imaginary people who you puppeteer. If you have a problem with it, say so...plainly. If your character has a problem with it, have them state so in an RP venue. But don't do this "my character was offended" crap. "My IC interpretation" is a direct contradiction. Are the lines between IC and OOC getting a little too fuzzy for some people? Is this just a new way of obfuscating the "you're doing it wrong" thing?
You cannot have an IC opinion! If the meaning you intended was a bit more nuanced and was meant as "my character's IC interpretation", then I guess that just reveals how easy it is to slip into a speech pattern that didn't convey your meaning properly and you might consider cutting Mammal some slack.
What's so wrong with thinking to yourself "hmm, not my cup of tea" and moving on?
Responses to hard work and creative energies like this entirely turn me off to the prospect of sitting down and really fleshing out some ideas I have. There have been 2 or 3 occasions I've been the first paragraph or two into something and I stop because it just feels like a thankless waste of time.
-
(With "my IC interpretation" above I mean "Elsebeth's interpretation". I only play the one character in EVE, so the shorthand actually works pretty well. Sorry to be unclear.)
I am sorry if you guys feel I was offensive or am doing it wrong, somehow. I don't mind you playing it the way you do - coming up with "The Culture" and posting about it. What you are inventing is good stuff. If I am not discussing the feast or event itself is because I have zero problems with it and think it is cool. :D This thread should probably be split into two - comments on this particular event in itself, and one about general discussion about presenting things you invent as the cultural norms most [insert race here] know about / follow.
So, on the latter, Syylara/Yaansu, I think you miss my point a bit. My point is not that I would want to offer "an alternative" and push my version as the culture. I actually rather like what people are doing with the Intaki stuff, and not playing an Intaki character there's very little chance that it will become problematic for my RP even if I didn't. :) What I want is a way to share these things that leaves room for everyone's ideas to co-exist in the same universe without us having to even go to treating them as "alternatives", to decide to "take it or leave it", and to "compete" with ideas.
My point is that I think things work better when people who invent cultural stuff carefully make theirs to be "a" Sebiestor (or whatever) culture rather than "the" Sebiestor (or whatever) majority culture. Explanation attempt for why I think so follows. If you think it is overanalysis and not your cup of tea, just skip it and continue playing the way you have so far.
In cases where someone presents something as "the Sebiestor way", the problem with thinking "not my cup of tea" is that my character, who is a fairly traditionally-minded Sebiestor, turns away from something that is (presented as) "the traditional thing" for her - so why does she do this? I prefer to not just OOCly ignore it, because other players will decide to play along, and I will with some likelihood play with them in the future, and this might come up. So I need to decide if ICly, I think the OP is mistaken about the customs and I am actually right, or if I belong to a minority of Sebs that do things differently, etc. Whatever I choose has implications for further RP - even if I am not OOCly interested in the thing itself at all. It leads to RP, which is good. But it leads to RP I did not "opt in" for, but that was chosen for me by another player's vision.
And say the more likely thing happens - say this idea actually is my cup of thea, say I find the idea fun, but it does not (bummer!) fit into my pre-existing background story about how my Sebiestor character's customs and ways. I might go "Oh, that sounds interesting, even though my people never did such a celebration" or so IC. This, still, forces a background decision on myself and the OP: does he now treat me as part of a minority of Sebs who do not follow this custom? Do I accept that characterization, for myself, and for everyone else I might meet in the game who cannot fit in that idea? Or do I contest his idea that he represents the majority, and bring in my own majority, and have a publicity contest about whose majority is bestest? And wouldn't both of us actually rather be playing the feast than deciding these things?
On the other hand, if initially, the whole thing was presented as "a Sebiestor way" (yes, just one word of difference!), I could think "not my cup of tea" and simply assume that while some Sebiestor do it, they might be a minority, or from a different region than my character, or whatever. It would also be easier to express interest in the feast even if I do not want to incorporate it into "my" Sebiestor ways. "Oh, that sounds interesting! I never heard of such a custom..." would be neutral, and place neither me nor the OP in the minority, but both as equal individuals discussing cultural ideas.
Like I tried to explain above,
1) I do not think this particular wording is an important issue at all, it is just indicative of a wider cultural clash, and
2) I completely believe that is is not the intent of people who put other people off with phrasings that imply that what you invented is THE way. (If it was their intent, there obviously wouldn't be any problem with this.)
Apologies if my viewpoints were offensive. I did not intend them as such. I was trying to offer my 2 cents about easy things we could all do to play together better - simply try and carefully make room for everyone's inventions.
-
Guessing some of Syylara's post is addressed at me. So let's deal with that. I haven't offered a 'not that' response. My ideas on how Intaki as a government and how Simon's culture are structured and behave are contained in chat logs (both IC and OOC), IGS posts, my blog and in several threads on this board. I've talked to an ILF member before on how I generate Intaki language terms and have repeatedly tried to refine and present a political point of view I think many Intaki hold. I'm sorry if you haven't been exposed to it. If you'd like, I could try do dedicate some time to building a resource on this. I hadn't thought it would be useful, because I'm not a very active roleplayer, but maybe there is a need after all.
I have stated, plainly, my problems with some of this before. In a couple of threads. My character does not have a problem with Khumbelaa itself, as he said in the thread. I think it's pretty clear, though, from a variety of IC posts, that he has a problem with some of the goals and attitudes of the ILF. It's possible for him to do both. And yes, interpretations are often slanted, but for Simon that half a sentence that could be explained away isn't a lone occurrence. I'm sorry if you don't think my character is being fair to your alliance.
I'd encourage you not to give up on your writing. Nothing can please everybody, and in a large setting like this there will always be disagreement, but if you and your friends enjoy it, I wouldn't let anybody stop you. I'm sorry if I contributed to you feeling that way.
-
I'd encourage you not to give up on your writing. Nothing can please everybody, and in a large setting like this there will always be disagreement, but if you and your friends enjoy it, I wouldn't let anybody stop you. I'm sorry if I contributed to you feeling that way.
Simon/everyone:
Those clarifying remarks as to Simon's political positions are certainly helpful in understanding his opposition to Kumhbelaa and the ILF. However, I would like to state that even on one planet...an endless variety of cultural, social, political and racial groups exist and co-exist (or don't), and that there certainly must be plenty of room for conscientious objectors to any number of issues present in a culture.
That there are some who celebrate some holiday called "Kumhbelaa" is a very real possibility, and that there are those that don't is too - even when referencing just the Intaki homeworld (Intaki V). When you consider that the Intaki are a diaspora culture and people, this possibility must grow exponentially, for if there are myriad cultures on one planet, this must grow when you speak of multiple planets being inhabited by "Intaki".
I realize that CCP has established roles for the different "races"; however, if we were to think in realistic terms, no one ideology, religion or philosophy can completely sum up an entire people, since, in reality, the "entire people" are typically made up of many peoples.
In short, I really think that there is room for everyone's opinion...in fact, disagreement is part of the discussion and the fabric of, for example, something like Kumhbelaa.
I hope that makes as much sense outside of my head as it did inside.
Rikiaato and Namas,
Art
-
I see no reason why one group can't claim, "THIS is what our culture is about" while another group says, "no, you make us all look like fools by association and should stop making everyone think we're all alike."
This happens to me IRL every day when "Christians" start spouting off irrationally and in ways that fundamentally contradict what our shared origin document actually says.
So yeah, that means that some characters might well see Saxon Hawke as the Sarah Palin of Intaki... :P
-
I am confused, Artabanus. I agree with your thoughts on Intaki cultural diversity, but you present it as being a counterargument to my position. I must have done a terrible job at making my point clear; I'll try to be more coherent in the future.
-
I am confused, Artabanus. I agree with your thoughts on Intaki cultural diversity, but you present it as being a counterargument to my position. I must have done a terrible job at making my point clear; I'll try to be more coherent in the future.
Sorry Simon :oops:....my point was not posited as a counterpoint...simply an addendum to what you were saying. You were not unclear; I suppose my point is that there is room for disagreement and objections; not everyone has to agree or be agreeable (or their characters for that matter...) in order to "play" together, and I was attempting to explain my reasons for making such an assertion.
Make sense now? Sorry for confusing everyone.
Art
-
So yeah, that means that some characters might well see Saxon Hawke as the Sarah Palin of Intaki... :P
Saxon's hotter though.
-
I bet I'm the only confused one, Artabanus. It's a downside to being me :lol: I'll just say again that I agree with everything you said and I like the cut of your jib, sir.
-
I bet I'm the only confused one, Artabanus. It's a downside to being me :lol: I'll just say again that I agree with everything you said and I like the cut of your jib, sir.
Lol. Okay, well, I'm basically agreeing with you. I imagine that when I said "However", in my post replying to you, that it may have been misinterpreted as a counterargument, which it most certainly was not. In fact, I believe that this is an important point, for which, I appreciate Simon's objections.
New Eden is not as homogeneous as everyone - and perhaps even the creators of New Eden - imagine. In any country/nation, there are countless sub-groups, minority groups, etc. There are usually always multiple and "alternate" racial, ethnic, social, political, religious, philosophic, ideological, etc., groups and peoples found within the "majority". I am a true believer in that this is the case in New Eden. On a planet such as Intaki V...yes they are all "Intaki"...but within that national Intaki identity - and I'm referring only to one planet - there must be multiple ethnicities, social, religious, philosophic, etc., beliefs. Of course, the Intaki are spread throughout a large number of systems, so this multiplicity can itself be multiplied.
Thus, I believe that Simon's beliefs, convictions and objections to Kumhbelaa (or whatever) are not only possible, but they probably speak to the concerns of other Intaki.
Hope I haven't confused anyone further...just some of my thoughts.
Art
-
Casiella, I think everyone in this thread actually agrees that there is enough room in the EVE universe for multiple customs and whatnot for each race. As has been said by several people, even on one planet there's huge variation in this kind of things. We do not disagree on the idea that there can be several "Sebiestor cultures" or "Intaki cultures" or whatever.
What we do disagree on is how distracting it is when someone ICly posts theirs as "THE Sebiestor way" or even the way of the majority, in a case where it is not the player's intention to portray the character as an asshole who wants to push their ways on everyone else (if it is actually the intent, I again think no one here sees a problem with that).
Some people think it is not distracting at all, because, well there's room for everyone, and they never OOCly meant that others can't do their stuff too. Some people, like me, think it is distracting, because instead of it being acknowledged that yes, there indeed is room, and us going on with talking about the various customs, I somehow have to "take the room" it by doing something about the big THE.
-
Casiella, I think everyone in this thread actually agrees that there is enough room in the EVE universe for multiple customs and whatnot for each race. As has been said by several people, even on one planet there's huge variation in this kind of things. We do not disagree on the idea that there can be several "Sebiestor cultures" or "Intaki cultures" or whatever.
What we do disagree on is how distracting it is when someone ICly posts theirs as "THE Sebiestor way" or even the way of the majority, in a case where it is not the player's intention to portray the character as an asshole who wants to push their ways on everyone else (if it is actually the intent, I again think no one here sees a problem with that).
Some people think it is not distracting at all, because, well there's room for everyone, and they never OOCly meant that others can't do their stuff too. Some people, like me, think it is distracting, because instead of it being acknowledged that yes, there indeed is room, and us going on with talking about the various customs, I somehow have to "take the room" it by doing something about the big THE.
Elsebeth:
I speak individually and for no one else when I say that I think that it is okay for someone to say that their way is THE way...what you say or I say is truly irrelevant in the large scheme...CCP says that the Intaki are one thing, yet the actual Intaki pilots are expanding far beyond what the creators have intended. The same can and does happen when someone may say that this is the Intaki way (for example).
I really do think that perhaps more is being made of Mammal's original post, and that semantics are being used - either inadvertently or otherwise - to fuel a debate that betrays a philosophical difference, not only in RP, but in how we all conceive of New Eden.
Art
-
Artabanus:
1) I absolutely agree that it is ok to say that your thing is THE thing. I am not arguing "you are doing it wrong" here. If you want to say it, you can say it. What I am trying to say is that if you want the RP that results better from saying it is "a thing" (ie, people interacting with your event/idea and expanding on it, rather than picking apart the implication that everyone knows about what you just invented) it might be sensible to say so instead. For example, in this case, "as many of you may know" would have, I think, achieved what the player wanted better than "as most of you know".
2) Like I said above, I am off on a tangent and this general discussion about how to present customs for your race without sounding like you are trying to push stuff on others, and this should probably be split off from the Kuhmbelaa discussion in particular. I agree that when people are reading what I say as a comment on that one phrasing and this particular event, more is made of it than I intend.
-
Artabanus:
1) I absolutely agree that it is ok to say that your thing is THE thing. I am not arguing "you are doing it wrong" here. If you want to say it, you can say it. What I am trying to say is that if you want the RP that results better from saying it is "a thing" (ie, people interacting with your event/idea and expanding on it, rather than picking apart the implication that everyone knows about what you just invented) it might be sensible to say so instead. For example, in this case, "as many of you may know" would have, I think, achieved what the player wanted better than "as most of you know".
Just to clarify...I am not an Intaki RPer...I'm actually Caldari...my comments are really just my general opinion and are not meant to represent any Intaki pilots.
But, I appreciate and respect your point of view.
Art
-
I'm not Intaki either, though some of my best friends are. ;) And yes, just speaking generally here, not meaning to comment on the Intaki RP in any more depth than all the players of Amarrians with claims that THIS is what Scripture says and EVERYONE knows it, and Matari players coming up with "THE Sebiestor new year customs". ;)
-
I guess in an effort to be a bit less prickly than before, I'll just say, this same conversation taking place IC would actually give us some RP as opposed to us OOCly saying how our characters theoretically feel :9.
-
Wow. I just read a bunch of this that I had apparently missed.
It's probably not worth necro-ing at this point.
-
Wow. I just read a bunch of this that I had apparently missed.
It's probably not worth necro-ing at this point.
Aw, but now I want to know what you have to say :(
-
Wow. I just read a bunch of this that I had apparently missed.
It's probably not worth necro-ing at this point.
Aw, but now I want to know what you have to say :(
I agree with Simon, I would like to hear what you have to say. Although Kuhmbelaa has come and gone, the issues being raised and discussed in this thread are still very pertinent to Intaki roleplay and Eve roleplay in general.
-
Fair enough. I think the disagreement comes down to a fundamental difference about the nature of RP or content creation. There have been a number of things said, but I'll respond to a few that I found problematic.
My 2 cents: while I do not consider the "most of you" such a wildly inappropriate thing to do, I do think that "as many of you may know" would have been OOCly more polite to other players.
This, I disagree with entirely. While I agree that 'most' to 'many' is a subtle shift of meaning, that was intentional. I chose to say 'most' rather than many. However, I do not accept that my choice was OOC impolite. 'Most' is a more inclusive word, which allows for those who want to play along to pretend that their characters knew about it the whole time, and of course they would be celebrating this year.
The other assumption in statements that I've read in this thread is to whom the 'you' in my statement is referring. Some have responded as if it refers to all capsuleers, others as if I was speaking only to other Intaki. Either way, I don't think it's appropriate to be ascribing motives to my post that are not present in the RP or in OOC behaviour.
First requires that I need to make a decision: 1) accept the suggestion that my character also thinks "most of us" know this, 2) question the posting character's idea of of what "most" know and think him/her a pompous ass for presuming that his/her customs are The Customs, or 3) declare my character belonging to a minority that does not know stuff that "everyone else" knows.
While any of those decisions are pretty easy and valid (and so this is not a big problem), phrasing it as "as many of you may know" does not require me to more than to decide if my character does or does not know. Whether "most" capsuleers know will be the sum of these decisions made. And so it feels more inviting: I can interact with the festival itself without having to take a stance on how common it is in the world in general.
See, I think the decision is: play along, or don't. It's really that simple to me. The decisions you post can be narrowed down without calling people/characters/corporations 'pompous ass'-es. If you feel that you can easily accept decision 1) that you posed, then do, as the situation allows. If not, then don't. The other two options seem to me to be complicating what is really a simple interaction choice.
And on the last, I don't agree with you on what feels more inviting, as I said. What I will say, lastly, is that I think some elements of the discussion are finicky in the extreme. The Kumbhelaa thread achieved exactly what I intended it to achieve, and I don't think it was rude to other role-players, especially those invested in the Intaki story line. There seems to be an implication that my creating content (originally created by Art, remember) is part of some overall political machination, part of the ILF minority, pushing its view of Intaki culture on the rest. This is absurd.
We are creating stories. This is the perfect example of collaborative roleplay, with Art, Saxon, myself, Simon, Andreus, Bataav and others involved. Everyone together gets an opportunity to tell some of their stories and work together to make some great content. It pisses me off that all some people can do is nitpick it.
-
Elsebeth, I think I love you. :D