I have to wonder, though, isn't this thread basically flamebait? "Haha, look what I did to you?"
I have to wonder, though, isn't this thread basically flamebait? "Haha, look what I did to you?"
Seeing as very little was taken I dont think theres much risk of this turning into a shitstorm
I have to wonder, though, isn't this thread basically flamebait? "Haha, look what I did to you?"
Relevant? (http://eve-search.com/thread/1389697-0)
I would be interested in knowing if there was any RP motive behind this.
I would be interested in knowing if there was any RP motive behind this.
(http://loscuatroojos.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/58_pics.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_EvZECtW4zOI/SdTrwIx6VMI/AAAAAAAAA74/pUez9ALl7hI/s400/Dr_Evil.jpg)
Update : There is high potential to go pear shaped but thus far everything has been in order. We'll be watching if persons want to continue this discussion.
As a personal aside I'm more of the mind the exchange should happen on the IGS to stir more role play, but oh well.
We are disappointed in the player in question for taking these actions, and the betrayal of trust it represented. I personally had considered this player a friend, and it is not without sorrow that I now rescind that.Why this? Just because the player did not alert ALXVP OOC about a heist or is there something more going on? Is there a code in the EVE RP community that you have to mention it OOC that your char is, or is going to become, a spy/thief?
We are disappointed in the player in question for taking these actions, and the betrayal of trust it represented. I personally had considered this player a friend, and it is not without sorrow that I now rescind that.Why this? Just because the player did not alert ALXVP OOC about a heist or is there something more going on? Is there a code in the EVE RP community that you have to mention it OOC that your char is, or is going to become, a spy/thief?
We are disappointed in the player in question for taking these actions, and the betrayal of trust it represented. I personally had considered this player a friend, and it is not without sorrow that I now rescind that.Why this? Just because the player did not alert ALXVP OOC about a heist or is there something more going on? Is there a code in the EVE RP community that you have to mention it OOC that your char is, or is going to become, a spy/thief?
Probably because of a natural reaction to being betrayed. Even in EVE it kinda sucks to have a friend do it to you.
On the other hand, there are a lot of people who would just as easily laugh over a corp heist done by their friends. It depends on how close of friends you actually are. If you share drinks in RL and have a strong friendship outside the game, and both take the game as it is (a game), chances are you won't be too upset and have a damaged friendship when your buddy makes off with some pixel money.We are disappointed in the player in question for taking these actions, and the betrayal of trust it represented. I personally had considered this player a friend, and it is not without sorrow that I now rescind that.Why this? Just because the player did not alert ALXVP OOC about a heist or is there something more going on? Is there a code in the EVE RP community that you have to mention it OOC that your char is, or is going to become, a spy/thief?
Maybe the issue is more to have friends in Eve.In fact, yes. I think that, because of what EVE and New Eden and Capsuleers are all about, having friends in EVE really IS doing it wrong. But like any MMO, it's extremely difficult and quickly grows boring to not have any friends at all to share your triumphs or your defeats, to laugh with and vent to and cry with when your goldfish dies. I've formed some very tight friendships with people whom I don't judge and know will not judge me, through this terrible game. I expect to form more such bonds, especially as I do what I can to help Souchek and co. build their (our) EVE vision.
Then are we all doing it wrong ?
Personally I like hanging out with friends and making a bil here and there. I get to do it more in the future. Burning bridges is burning opportunities.
In EVE, I have benefited time and time again from having friends. From intel gathering from the most unlikely sources, to being cut deals, to just having fun people to share the game with. I am not rich by any means but I could shit out a bil right now and not miss it. I don't understand why someone would do shoot themselves in the foot by doing this.
But if you want to isolate yourself from future opportunity over the sake of what is essentially the cost of a Vindicator hull, then I guess that's your own choice.
I take the opposite view: I've made a lot of friends in EVE and I always benefited from doing so in game as much as out of game. Even if 10% of the friends I made would betray the trust of friendship in a way measureable in "ISK", I'd have made a by far greater profit that's similarly measurable by making and having friends in EVE.Maybe the issue is more to have friends in Eve.In fact, yes. I think that, because of what EVE and New Eden and Capsuleers are all about, having friends in EVE really IS doing it wrong. But like any MMO, it's extremely difficult and quickly grows boring to not have any friends at all to share your triumphs or your defeats, to laugh with and vent to and cry with when your goldfish dies. I've formed some very tight friendships with people whom I don't judge and know will not judge me, through this terrible game. I expect to form more such bonds, especially as I do what I can to help Souchek and co. build their (our) EVE vision.
Then are we all doing it wrong ?
So yeah... friends in EVE is doing it wrong, in the context of how the game is designed and arguably meant to be played. But I'm okay with that, too :D
I take the opposite view:No you didn't :p
It seems pretty obvious to me that you can't consider a corp theft to be a purely IC act unless the entirety of recruiting the thief was merely an IC act. Every corporation I've been in has included at least a little OOC chat as part of the interviewing process, usually to talk about things like OOC expectations and to get a feel for someone. Because of this, there is an element of OOC trust that has to be established here. This OOC trust is betrayed by the thief.
In Saede's case, it sounds like there's quite a bit of OOC trust going on: where no corporation in its right mind would actually give the keys to the vault to each and every new employee, Axlvp does. They do this because (as Saede says) that's part of the OOC culture of the corporation. It's the equivalent of taking money from the monopoly bank while your friends are at the door paying for the pizza.
In Saede's case, it sounds like there's quite a bit of OOC trust going on: where no corporation in its right mind would actually give the keys to the vault to each and every new employee, Axlvp does. They do this because (as Saede says) that's part of the OOC culture of the corporation. It's the equivalent of taking money from the monopoly bank while your friends are at the door paying for the pizza.
Of course a lot will bring up the usual fallacy that CCP encourages/condone it so it's ok to do it.This isn't a fallacy. CCP does encourage this behaviour in their game, and so, in their game, it is okay to do it.
Of course a lot will bring up the usual fallacy that CCP encourages/condone it so it's ok to do it.This isn't a fallacy. CCP does encourage this behaviour in their game, and so, in their game, it is okay to do it.
In boxing, it is encouraged to punch another person in the face. And so, in boxing, it is okay to punch another person in the face.
Outside of boxing, it is not okay to punch another person in the face. (unless you're participating in another sport where such is encouraged, such as MMA fighting)
Outside of Eve-Online, it is not okay to rob your employers blind. (unless you're playing a different game where such is encouraged, such as... oh, wait. I can't think of a single one! Guess that uniqueness makes Eve-Online awesome \o/ )
...corp heist is simulation.Ah, right. Of course, there is that. For some reason I read your previous post as talking only about the act of pixel theft itself, rather than also the OOC social impact. My fault entirely, now that I re-read the other post.
The betrayal of the players however, is not.
For me, EVE and New Eden is about risk vs reward. I live in Las Vegas, so I'll use a casino analogy.Maybe the issue is more to have friends in Eve.In fact, yes. I think that, because of what EVE and New Eden and Capsuleers are all about, having friends in EVE really IS doing it wrong.
Then are we all doing it wrong ?
I find it interesting that corp heists are getting such hate from the RP community at large. Quite a few of us started playing because we heard of a certain heist, one that ended spectacularly, and was within the RP community. And today, the person who orchestrated and pulled off that heist is a well-liked and respected member of the RP community. Yet, heists are somehow off limits?
The fact is that if totally IC heists could be pulled off, that'd be great. But that would be like trying to choreograph a PvP fight blow-for-blow. People tend not to like being in a "losing" scenario with their characters. Players may arrange for Bad Things to happen, but in a controlled way that meets their approval. In short, the answer to "Can I rob your hangar of 3 bil worth of stuff" is generally going to get the same answer as "Can I blow up your 3 bil isk ship?" As such, you don't seek the OOC approval of the player beforehand, you just do it.
tl;dr: Players will nearly always use OOC info to avoid serious loss to their characters, corp thieves can't give OOC notice.
...corp heist is simulation.Ah, right. Of course, there is that. For some reason I read your previous post as talking only about the act of pixel theft itself, rather than also the OOC social impact. My fault entirely, now that I re-read the other post.
The betrayal of the players however, is not.
To that point, I agree but sorta disagree as well. I mean, yeah, it sucks to have one's trust betrayed and I think it's a shitty thing to do to be the betrayer - provided that the betrayer went into the friendship honestly to begin with and for whatever reason just decided to break it.
I mean, if I join a corp with the intent of eventually gaining roles/trust and robbing them, then everything I do with that corporation will be toward the intended end. On my end, the friendship is never real. It's all social engineering. Will it be wrong to betray their trust, given that on their end the friendship formed is real? On the one hand, yes, on the other hand no.
In that scenario, you may call "It's just a game" a fallacy, and may even be right, but I still don't... because that is the game being played by that individual. If that makes sense... it did in my head, not as sure now that I read it on-screen.
Yes Makkal, but about the OOC/players side of it ?What about it?
Relevant? (http://eve-search.com/thread/1389697-0)
Relevant? (http://eve-search.com/thread/1389697-0)
what ever happened to Myxx anyway ?
Ok, I was kinda sadly surprised to notice this "You can't RP a spy/thief if you and ALL your alts don't want to be ostracized by The Community." thing. But I guess I'm glad I found out this way.
So, if I ever want to develop my spy alt, I'm out of luck, huh? There's no way to do this right? No way to keep the betrayal IC? I can't play a IC thief without being seen as an OOC thief. Oh wait, I already mentioned I have a dormant spy alt, so no trust for Ché?
Ok, I was kinda sadly surprised to notice this "You can't RP a spy/thief if you and ALL your alts don't want to be ostracized by The Community." thing. But I guess I'm glad I found out this way.
So, if I ever want to develop my spy alt, I'm out of luck, huh? There's no way to do this right? No way to keep the betrayal IC? I can't play a IC thief without being seen as an OOC thief. Oh wait, I already mentioned I have a dormant spy alt, so no trust for Ché?
Ok, I was kinda sadly surprised to notice this "You can't RP a spy/thief if you and ALL your alts don't want to be ostracized by The Community." thing. But I guess I'm glad I found out this way.
So, if I ever want to develop my spy alt, I'm out of luck, huh? There's no way to do this right? No way to keep the betrayal IC? I can't play a IC thief without being seen as an OOC thief. Oh wait, I already mentioned I have a dormant spy alt, so no trust for Ché?
Ok, I was kinda sadly surprised to notice this "You can't RP a spy/thief if you and ALL your alts don't want to be ostracized by The Community." thing. But I guess I'm glad I found out this way.
Whenever a non-roleplayer spies/awoxes/scams, you see a lot of threads in places like Crime and Punishment that outs all of that player's alts. I'm not sure why a roleplayer who conducts such activities should receive any sort of special protection simply on the basis that they roleplay.Hmm, I kinda see EVE as a poker game: deception is expected, even among friends you can trust IRL.
I bolded and underlined the question I think is at the heart of your post. The short answer is "No"; if you steal actual, mechanical assets, you have engaged in a form of meta gameplay that is inherently deceptive and untrustworthy. If a roleplayer pulls a heist off on one character, reasonably speaking I shouldn't trust other characters played by the same player with assets either. It is the player who engaged in the meta gameplay, not the character. That's not to say the player is some sort of foul, evil person, but it simply wouldn't be wise to give them access to valuables anymore.
Whenever a non-roleplayer spies/awoxes/scams, you see a lot of threads in places like Crime and Punishment that outs all of that player's alts. I'm not sure why a roleplayer who conducts such activities should receive any sort of special protection simply on the basis that they roleplay.Hmm, I kinda see EVE as a poker game: deception is expected, even among friends you can trust IRL.
I bolded and underlined the question I think is at the heart of your post. The short answer is "No"; if you steal actual, mechanical assets, you have engaged in a form of meta gameplay that is inherently deceptive and untrustworthy. If a roleplayer pulls a heist off on one character, reasonably speaking I shouldn't trust other characters played by the same player with assets either. It is the player who engaged in the meta gameplay, not the character. That's not to say the player is some sort of foul, evil person, but it simply wouldn't be wise to give them access to valuables anymore.
I can understand the OOC name and shame, but I'd hate it if Ché loses all IC credibility just because there's OOC knowledge that his player has a spy/thief alt. To me, it feels like a char not getting into TS-F because the player also plays an mission alt that does incursions, or a Matari char not getting into TLF because the player also has an Amarr Holder char. Or Ché not walking into somewhere because I see, OOC, that Ava is there waiting to punch Ché in the nards.
I would prefer it if the RP community people trusted I can keep my characters seperated until proven otherwise.
What does it matter if it's "actual, mechanical assets" instead of an IC secret or asset. Why is it not ok if someone steals "a mere 2 billion", when it is ok if someone reveals character X's big dark secret, or abucts her daughter to sell as a slave? I can blow up all your ships and crew and all will be well with The RP Community, but steal one, and I'm out?
As someone whose interactions are 99% IC when logged in, I don't see why I couldn't RP a spy/thief without metagaming, but then again, I never tried it yet, so I guess there are some things I have not thought about?
Is there no spy/counterspy/sabotage thing going on in FW RP corps or other RP enemies?
So...is Ché's trustworthiness affected now you folks know that I, the player, am cool with the spy/thief thing?
Declaring on an open forum that you have one spy/thief alt, or are brewing one for such purpose wasn't the smartest thing to do to begin with. It has left a permanent mark on your shirt now.Honestly, I don't think anyone has to wet his shirt over Che's declaration. It's not if anyone who's not declaring that he's got a spy/thief alt is any less suspicious.
Whenever a non-roleplayer spies/awoxes/scams, you see a lot of threads in places like Crime and Punishment that outs all of that player's alts. I'm not sure why a roleplayer who conducts such activities should receive any sort of special protection simply on the basis that they roleplay.Hmm, I kinda see EVE as a poker game: deception is expected, even among friends you can trust IRL.
I bolded and underlined the question I think is at the heart of your post. The short answer is "No"; if you steal actual, mechanical assets, you have engaged in a form of meta gameplay that is inherently deceptive and untrustworthy. If a roleplayer pulls a heist off on one character, reasonably speaking I shouldn't trust other characters played by the same player with assets either. It is the player who engaged in the meta gameplay, not the character. That's not to say the player is some sort of foul, evil person, but it simply wouldn't be wise to give them access to valuables anymore.
I can understand the OOC name and shame, but I'd hate it if Ché loses all IC credibility just because there's OOC knowledge that his player has a spy/thief alt. To me, it feels like a char not getting into TS-F because the player also plays an mission alt that does incursions, or a Matari char not getting into TLF because the player also has an Amarr Holder char. Or Ché not walking into somewhere because I see, OOC, that Ava is there waiting to punch Ché in the nards.
I would prefer it if the RP community people trusted I can keep my characters seperated until proven otherwise.
What does it matter if it's "actual, mechanical assets" instead of an IC secret or asset. Why is it not ok if someone steals "a mere 2 billion", when it is ok if someone reveals character X's big dark secret, or abucts her daughter to sell as a slave? I can blow up all your ships and crew and all will be well with The RP Community, but steal one, and I'm out?
As someone whose interactions are 99% IC when logged in, I don't see why I couldn't RP a spy/thief without metagaming, but then again, I never tried it yet, so I guess there are some things I have not thought about?
Is there no spy/counterspy/sabotage thing going on in FW RP corps or other RP enemies?
So...is Ché's trustworthiness affected now you folks know that I, the player, am cool with the spy/thief thing?
Declaring on an open forum that you have one spy/thief alt, or are brewing one for such purpose wasn't the smartest thing to do to begin with. It has left a permanent mark on your shirt now.Honestly, I don't think anyone has to wet his shirt over Che's declaration. It's not if anyone who's not declaring that he's got a spy/thief alt is any less suspicious.
Here's an interesting thought. Could you corpthieve via RP without breaking OOC trust?
If someone came to you and said, "here's what I'm trying to RP, here's what I've done, here's the reasons"... and you thought it was reasonable and well done... would you RP them thieving from your corp? Give them assets?
Trust no one. Seriously. I'm paranoid for a reason.
Personal preference. After experiencing what I have, I prefer 'limited' game play and peace of mind in an NPC corp knowing I can do what I want in safety without worrying constantly about who's going to war dec me or steal from me or generally shit on my day.
I play Eve for fun, not to worry. Again, personal preference though.
Personal preference. After experiencing what I have, I prefer 'limited' game play and peace of mind in an NPC corp knowing I can do what I want in safety without worrying constantly about who's going to war dec me or steal from me or generally shit on my day.
I play Eve for fun, not to worry. Again, personal preference though.
Oblig. subnormality: http://www.viruscomix.com/page525.html
And just as IRL I wouldn't suspect person A more than person B, simply because person A is honest in the point that he 'once contemplated theft but didn't do it, because he is more interested in getting along with people'. And sure that doesn't say that everybody does it, just that Che is as (un)likely as everybody else, prima facie. Actually, I'd rather trust someone who wear his heart on his sleeve, like Che does, then someone who never said something in that regard but declares openly that he shoot everyone given the opportunity, with no regard to friendship whatsoever.Declaring on an open forum that you have one spy/thief alt, or are brewing one for such purpose wasn't the smartest thing to do to begin with. It has left a permanent mark on your shirt now.Honestly, I don't think anyone has to wet his shirt over Che's declaration. It's not if anyone who's not declaring that he's got a spy/thief alt is any less suspicious.
Suspicious yes. Doesn't mean that everybody does it.... does it ? I hope not...
The same way that everyone IRL can be suspected to deal in crime at night, does not mean that everyone does.
I can understand the OOC name and shame, but I'd hate it if Ché loses all IC credibility just because there's OOC knowledge that his player has a spy/thief alt. To me, it feels like a char not getting into TS-F because the player also plays an mission alt that does incursions, or a Matari char not getting into TLF because the player also has an Amarr Holder char. Or Ché not walking into somewhere because I see, OOC, that Ava is there waiting to punch Ché in the nards.
I would prefer it if the RP community people trusted I can keep my characters seperated until proven otherwise.
I can understand the OOC name and shame, but I'd hate it if Ché loses all IC credibility just because there's OOC knowledge that his player has a spy/thief alt. To me, it feels like a char not getting into TS-F because the player also plays an mission alt that does incursions, or a Matari char not getting into TLF because the player also has an Amarr Holder char. Or Ché not walking into somewhere because I see, OOC, that Ava is there waiting to punch Ché in the nards.
I would prefer it if the RP community people trusted I can keep my characters seperated until proven otherwise.
Here's the thing, though: You have a spy alt. That's an easy thing to do, right? But if you look at your spy alt ICly, why are they spying for your main? Is there a rationale for it? Have you worked out a story behind why this happened? I know that sounds ridiculous, but imagine your spy alt was actually a different player's character: You'd have to work out ICly with them why they're spying. At the very least, they'd need a compelling reason why they're going through all this trouble for Ché: Money? Blackmail? Something else?
If you just create a "spy alt" and leave it like that, you're dropping the IC game and stepping squarely into OOC-ville. Likewise, if a player creates an alt and uses it to steal someone's assets, transferring them to a main before deleting the alt, it's all OOC. Why would the thief do that? They've gotten away with a few billion isk in assets. Why would they give them to someone else and then retire?
To me, a player who's creating characters to perpetrate corp thefts and wishing to keep them IC would probably have to be satisfied with doing the theft and then biomassing the character along with all of the loot. That character was successful in their heist, after all. They're retiring to spend their hard-earned loot!
For a spy alt it's a bit harder, because there's an implicit relationship between the alt and the main. I've never seen someone playing a spy alt in a way that's felt like it's anything other than an OOC relationship, but I suppose it could be done.
That's why I, at least, am fine with the alt-name-and-shame game.
Yeah, what Shintoko wrote is pretty much how I would not do it. My chars share nothing, not even ISK.
And just as IRL I wouldn't suspect person A more than person B, simply because person A is honest in the point that he 'once contemplated theft but didn't do it, because he is more interested in getting along with people'. And sure that doesn't say that everybody does it, just that Che is as (un)likely as everybody else, prima facie. Actually, I'd rather trust someone who wear his heart on his sleeve, like Che does, then someone who never said something in that regard but declares openly that he shoot everyone given the opportunity, with no regard to friendship whatsoever.Declaring on an open forum that you have one spy/thief alt, or are brewing one for such purpose wasn't the smartest thing to do to begin with. It has left a permanent mark on your shirt now.Honestly, I don't think anyone has to wet his shirt over Che's declaration. It's not if anyone who's not declaring that he's got a spy/thief alt is any less suspicious.
Suspicious yes. Doesn't mean that everybody does it.... does it ? I hope not...
The same way that everyone IRL can be suspected to deal in crime at night, does not mean that everyone does.
[..]I'd argue that your spy alt really isn't a spy alt, they're just another character.I thought that the definition of an alt char is a character in addition to one's "primary" or "Main" player character.
[..]I'd argue that your spy alt really isn't a spy alt, they're just another character.I thought that the definition of an alt char is a character in addition to one's "primary" or "Main" player character.
Yeah, what Shintoko wrote is pretty much how I would not do it. My chars share nothing, not even ISK. They don't know eachother, and considering I can't play them at the same time, they will likely never meet.True, true.
So...is Ché's trustworthiness affected now you folks know that I, the player, am cool with the spy/thief thing?
Don't fuck and try to cut people at the same time, anyway, it's bound to end in tears.
It depends a lot on how you interpret "fucking," granted. I wouldn't recommend handling sharp objects while there's any hip-thrusting or similar motion going on, is all.Don't fuck and try to cut people at the same time, anyway, it's bound to end in tears.
Unless you're into that.
So...is Ché's trustworthiness affected now you folks know that I, the player, am cool with the spy/thief thing?
I'm like everyone else, I suspect. I respect your right to roleplay the way you want to - but if you or an alt of yours steals from me or one of my circle I will fucking CUT you. This is because ingame assets have a realworld value - even if it's only time spent.
I imagine that Ghandi might be able to firewall douchebaggery and dickishness on an IC / OOC basis, but most of us are just not that evolved. As Vinnie said, don't shit where you eat.
Smuggles, I don't see why wanting to cut you for that is bad. If someone kills me I usually try to give the favor back, because there ain't no fun like vengeance. Being butthurt over OOC lying depends entirely on how deep the trust between the two parties was. If someone I consider to be a friend or worthy of my trust pulls that one there will be consequences. Needless to say your exmaple with the rp war is a bit meh, because when in a war, you have to expect anything. Still - depends entirely how much trust there seemingly was.
What's the original point of this part of the discussion was something else, imo, and this was using the old "But it was RP!" excuse for thievery, griefing and general asshattery. If you break someone's OOC trust you've broken someone's OOC trust. Doesn't matter whether part of the motivation was IC or not, you still chose deliberately to fuck someone over. EVE's a game where this is a big part of its culture, but looks like we're back at what I initially says: Depends how much ooc trust there seemingly was in the first place. ;)
Needless to say your exmaple with the rp war is a bit meh, because when in a war, you have to expect anything.
First off, the implication is that he'd want to cut you in real life. I made it quite clear that I have no problem with IC reactions to such things. But Pieter made it equally clear that he cannot separate fantasy from reality and would, in fact, hold negative OOC feelings for IC actions. That's not very healthy.
Second, since Pieter made it clear that he believes in "RPer samurai ehonoure", I assumed that OOC trust was in place in the RP war example, because why would RPers lie to each other, right? I so want to play a game of Diplomacy with him right now, or just WATCH him play one and lose all his friends because they LIED to him about their intentions in a GAME, how dast they?!
If you're specially dicking someone over for OOC reasons, sure, that's a dick move. On the other hand, if someone is acting according to their character (personal revenge, political intrigue, hired thief) then you have as much leeway to whine about a theft as you do losing your ship in that fight. OOC trust is for OOC things. Ingame, I'm not going to tip off any plots I have going just because you fucking asked nicely. EVE is a game and life is real, keep that in perspective the next time you go apeshit because someone threatened your precious space pixels.
If you have enemies, you're at war. And they may fight that war in ways you don't see coming. You may not even know you're AT war, because not all wars are declared by CONCORD. That's what makes this game so fucking awesome: you can actually fight a shadow war.
And if some people have a problem with that, they need to make sure to post their tears on the Summit.
That's your view that I find totally unhealthy. If people are ready to stab each other in the back in the game, it's not different than IRL.
An IC hiest should not mean the end of an OOC friendship. It's pretty obvious that wasn't the intention in this particular one. But if the losing party isn't able to separate themselves from their character enough to step back and say "Hah, well played" then too bad for them.
That's your view that I find totally unhealthy. If people are ready to stab each other in the back in the game, it's not different than IRL. Because it's made of space pixels and because there is no law preventing it - and at the opposite CCP's word is to encourage it - does not mean that it's somehow okay to do so. That's the kind of things that reminds me why we have laws IRL, since apparently, it's quite needed.
An IC hiest should not mean the end of an OOC friendship. It's pretty obvious that wasn't the intention in this particular one. But if the losing party isn't able to separate themselves from their character enough to step back and say "Hah, well played" then too bad for them.
Well, that's your opinion and that's okay. But who are you to dictate to other people their standards for friendship? It's not a matter of IC/OOC seperation, but of OOC trust that's given. If handing out roles to people is an OOC rather than an IC decision and that's made clear when it is, there is clearly OOC trust broken if people misuse their roles for thievery.
That's your view that I find totally unhealthy. If people are ready to stab each other in the back in the game, it's not different than IRL. Because it's made of space pixels and because there is no law preventing it - and at the opposite CCP's word is to encourage it - does not mean that it's somehow okay to do so. That's the kind of things that reminds me why we have laws IRL, since apparently, it's quite needed.
I don't necessarily find this view correct though, because by and large, despite CCPs encouragement, and a theft to stir up discontent, I still have 20 people in my corp, and people still trust me to make decisions. For every person there ready to try and stab you in the back, there's 10 who will jump in front of the dagger for you, and I think that has been the real strength through all of this. Just because you can burn bridges doesn't mean you can't also build them, and I have. My current flatmate, I met through EVE, most of my closest, most longtime friends are people I know ingame, met ingame, or are other EVE players. I still talk to Bai'xao in a perfectly friendly manner OOC, and even to Olm, the IC 'mastermind' behind the hoist, and I'd still be willing to have have a drink with them irl.
Of course, I'm also willing to burn their corporation to the ground.
I think that while its important to main an IC/OOC divide, its equally if not more important to maintain an ingame/IRL divide. Its the far side of that second divide that leads to things like, people killing each other over Everquest II.
You can be friends with someone you don't trust.
I can understand the OOC name and shame, but I'd hate it if Ché loses all IC credibility just because there's OOC knowledge that his player has a spy/thief alt. To me, it feels like a char not getting into TS-F because the player also plays an mission alt that does incursions, or a Matari char not getting into TLF because the player also has an Amarr Holder char. Or Ché not walking into somewhere because I see, OOC, that Ava is there waiting to punch Ché in the nards.
I would prefer it if the RP community people trusted I can keep my characters seperated until proven otherwise.
Here's the thing, though: You have a spy alt. That's an easy thing to do, right? But if you look at your spy alt ICly, why are they spying for your main? Is there a rationale for it? Have you worked out a story behind why this happened? I know that sounds ridiculous, but imagine your spy alt was actually a different player's character: You'd have to work out ICly with them why they're spying. At the very least, they'd need a compelling reason why they're going through all this trouble for Ché: Money? Blackmail? Something else?
If you just create a "spy alt" and leave it like that, you're dropping the IC game and stepping squarely into OOC-ville. Likewise, if a player creates an alt and uses it to steal someone's assets, transferring them to a main before deleting the alt, it's all OOC. Why would the thief do that? They've gotten away with a few billion isk in assets. Why would they give them to someone else and then retire?
To me, a player who's creating characters to perpetrate corp thefts and wishing to keep them IC would probably have to be satisfied with doing the theft and then biomassing the character along with all of the loot. That character was successful in their heist, after all. They're retiring to spend their hard-earned loot!
For a spy alt it's a bit harder, because there's an implicit relationship between the alt and the main. I've never seen someone playing a spy alt in a way that's felt like it's anything other than an OOC relationship, but I suppose it could be done.
That's why I, at least, am fine with the alt-name-and-shame game.
You can be friends with someone you don't trust.
This idea completely baffles me, to be honest. To me (In OOC terms), a friendship without some degree of trust is... Well, not. It seems like it might be the fundemental root of this difference in thinking.
You can be friends with someone you don't trust.
This idea completely baffles me, to be honest. To me (In OOC terms), a friendship without some degree of trust is... Well, not. It seems like it might be the fundemental root of this difference in thinking.
You can be friends with someone you don't trust.
This idea completely baffles me, to be honest. To me (In OOC terms), a friendship without some degree of trust is... Well, not. It seems like it might be the fundemental root of this difference in thinking.
And no, actually, I do certainly not admire Istvaan for what he did as well.
Or because he considers it's somehow different in a game (where stuff actually correspond to RL time and money) ?
And no, actually, I do certainly not admire Istvaan for what he did as well.
[..]your OOC decision to do the theft (which is actually kind of a prerequisite for your char doing it).That depends actually. With Ché I'm pretty much a method actor now. Heck, sometimes I even dream like him, or as him.
[..]
EVE is a game, and if you piss into the pool where the people play, don't be surprised they don't want you in their pool anymore - and maybe tell the others that you're a pool-pisser.
Also, if making friends and building social intricacies on the internet is part of the fantasy world for you, and so, hold no value and can be broken like a sand castle at the slightest of your whims, and is somehow different from IRL relationships,
[..]
Because it's made of space pixels and because there is no law preventing it - and at the opposite CCP's word is to encourage it - does not mean that it's somehow okay to do so.
[..]
Also, I would like to understand how something like that happening can only bear IC causes and consequences.
[..]why should I trust someone IRL more if he is not worth it ingame? [..] Why would he act differently IRL if there was no law preventing it ?I kinda thought pissing in the pool was part how the game is played.
Because of the implied OOC contract of cooperation and the time investment, I have ultimately concluded that those who betray their associates in Eve are in no position to complain if others take it personally OOC. It's like betraying the party in a PnP. People have put much of themselves into their projects, and expected you to have their backs; you should expect people to take it badly when you take "having their backs" to mean plunging a dagger between their shoulder blades.
However, because of the game's nature and especially the explicit allowance of such treachery, neither is it reasonable for third parties to draw harsh conclusions about the moral character of those who choose to engage in corp theft and similar shenanigans-- this is, after all, a game. We all knew its nature, and we've all known that there would be some who would choose to play off of our OOC implied contracts of cooperation rather than abiding by them. It's fair play, if not necessarily nice. I won't be hiring Smuggles, but I have no personal issue with his actions-- they're part of the reason I play this game.
I still talk to Bai'xao in a perfectly friendly manner OOC, and even to Olm, the IC 'mastermind' behind the hoist, and I'd still be willing to have have a drink with them irl.
One question: would you let Bai'xao/Olm (not any of the heist involved characters, ofc) in your corp, with no roles?
It's fine to trust in EVE, but every theft happened because someone was careless, or trusted too easily in an environment where trust is a commodity. Just look at Chribba.
You can be friends with someone you don't trust.
This idea completely baffles me, to be honest. To me (In OOC terms), a friendship without some degree of trust is... Well, not. It seems like it might be the fundemental root of this difference in thinking.
A friend is someone you like. Generally speaking this will entail a greater amount of trust than Joe Blow off the street, but that doesn't mean it has to be a great deal. I've met people that I've considered friends after only 3 days of getting to know them but that doesn't mean I'd trust them.
By the way, when I say "trust" I mean with something significant. You could say I trust my friends in corp not to shoot me when I undock, but losing a single ship isn't going to ruin me if they did. There is technically trust, but not enough for me to really call it that. Now, loaning someone half your liquid ISK, that would be trust. I have some friends I would trust to pay me back, and some that I wouldn't. The ones that I wouldn't are generally more casual friends and corpmates. So, I could say that you can be friends with people you don't trust much, because what's more important is that you like them. Otherwise, why would you hang out with them?
Because time is money, every moment that you spend is money...or so people think. The fact is, what you are paying for with EVE and investing time in is not the right to own virtual stuff, but for entertainment. How is this different from other MMOs? EVE lets you take other people's virtual stuff away. Shooting, scamming, thievery, piracy, all of it goes. That is something truly unique, and while you do not have to participate in it, it is a part of the game, and the universe itself. Take measures against it, protect yourself, but should it happen to you anyways, laugh! Enjoy! That's what you're here for: to be part of a larger world that is at best apathetic to your existence and for the most part hostile. The losses are what make the victories sweeter, because they remind you that victory is not guaranteed. If you can't have fun when bad things you didn't want to happen to your character happen anyways, well...you have some maturing to do.
And if you get caught on the losing end of a heist...don't get mad.
Get even. :yar:
And no, actually, I do certainly not admire Istvaan for what he did as well.
Just for my looks, then?
It's fine to trust in EVE, but every theft happened because someone was careless, or trusted too easily in an environment where trust is a commodity. Just look at Chribba.
... you have nobody to blame but yourself if you get caught off guard by the 10th guy, because it's fair for the character to have a grudge against you, even if the player doesn't.
You betrayed them. You profited. They lost. Their anger is just a part of what you bargained for.
This is a fair move you made in a game. Why would you want to avoid taking the full credit for what you did?
You can be blamed. You should be blamed. The blame is the chorus of groans received by an especially horrid punster.
Like that punster, you earned your accolades-- your victim's anger. If you can't enjoy it without guilt, you may be in the wrong line of IC work.
The problem is, if it could be totally IC, that's the way I would do it. If when I signed on with a corp, I could go "By the way, this guy is an agent for [rival corp/faction] and will clean out your shit at the first available opportunity" and they would go "You're welcome to try, good luck" and immediately forget about it, so that no OOC knowledge was put to use in foiling my character's plans, I'd be all for that.Yeah, that's another thing, if RP corporations rely on OOC/OOG trust for security, thus placing security in the OOC/OOG domain, then they kind of "force" players with spy/thief characters to break OOC trust, as they then have to default to standard OOC/OOG EVE infiltration mechanics in order to infiltrate.
Yeah, that's another thing, if RP corporations rely on OOC/OOG trust for security, thus placing security in the OOC/OOG domain, then they kind of "force" players with spy/thief characters to break OOC trust, as they then have to default to standard OOC/OOG EVE infiltration mechanics in order to infiltrate.
So if you push corp security in the OOC/OOG domain, don't be surprised if OOC/OOG trust gets broken.
If someone were to join my corp, I think I would keep the security scan mostly IC, like if I asked for the API, I would not audit the entire account, but just the char applying.
Like that punster, you earned your accolades-- your victim's anger. If you can't enjoy it without guilt, you may be in the wrong line of IC work.
No one forces you to break OOC/OOG trust. It's always your decision whether you want to do so or not and you should make that decision based on your knowledge what you do.Just so we're clear, I agree with this. I did place "force" in quotation marks for a reason.
Like that punster, you earned your accolades-- your victim's anger. If you can't enjoy it without guilt, you may be in the wrong line of IC work.
There are players who deliberately milk others for tears. If you're not one of them, you're not one of them. The idea that you ought to enjoy another's anger isn't one I agree with though I do believe you ought to expect another's anger.