Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Silas Vitalia on 05 Sep 2013, 12:59
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Opinions!
We're all guilty to various degrees of acting out fairly typical character and capsuleer tropes. This isn't always a bad thing!
Some of these tropes people love, some people don't love, curious on your thoughts.
Me likey:
+I like most of the 'standard' race and bloodline tropes; the snooty True Amarr, the corporate Caldari, etc. Super fine with most of these and the general racial personality tropes.
+I wish I saw more 'outlaw' types, especially Brutor. I want more sons of anarchy road warrior out causing mayhem Brutor space biker gangs. Lobos on his space bike out ruining people's day.
+Obviously I like cult of personality psychotic power hungry slightly (more than slightly) crazy capsuleers
+I do like a lot of the 'non fighter' types, from researchers, to industrialists, miners, and manufacturers. It's nice to see the capsuleers that are out working in other industries that are RPers.
Tropes that make me groan (just my little opinions here)
- 'Amnesia' I've seen this done well (IMO) probably like twice in 8 years. Most of the time it's a 'i was found abandoned in a ship with no memory' sort of thing. Lots of capsuleers being abandoned in spaceships with no memories it seems :P
-'abuse / slave porn' capsuleers : My definition. These are the ones that love talking about how much they were beaten and abused and usually toss in some sexual rapey parts as well. Of course they always manage to escape, kill a few captors, and are capsule-compatible. For such deep emotional scarring they are usually super excited to talk about every gory detail of their life of physical and sexual abuse. :roll:
How about you all?
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I have a personal fondness for unrepentant, straight-faced evil. People who can pull off the various flavours of villainous tropes effectively - and to a lesser extent, other 'unpopular' concepts (Diana Kim being a prime example) - are fascinating to me, and I tend to monitor them. I sometimes lose interest if they don't stand up to scrutiny, but I like a good antagonistic character.
Conversely, making some concepts overly fluffy is a turnoff. I'll say no more on that, too easy to stray into YDIW territory or naming names.
Strange as it may seem given the fact that I seem to be part of the snugglefest crowd, I play a dark and rather sinister game when it comes to RP. I just don't publicise it, it comes out in hints and snippets and behind-the-scenes. Used to be a bit more obvious when I was using other characters than Reppy, but a few people can attest to a couple of brutal arcs I've run through.
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+ I miss Scagga and his gang of monocle Ammatar scoundrels. Especially when trying to ransom a neutral freighter escorted by PIE in low sec.
+ I absolutely love gallentean politicians. Especially Hans Nardieu and Alain Octirant (but all the clique including Bastian Valoron and the sociocrat girl that I can't remember the name). If I had to make an alt, it would be an U-Nat one. And not a twirling mustache U-Nat, a really serious one raising "good" points. Or maybe a serious sociocrat. We lack of sociocrats (or sociokrauts ?) that do sound like sociocrats and not like Blaque.
+ I like educated modern Amarrians like Nico that do not sound like Torquemada and try to build a modern and believable Amarr Empire.
+ 6 months ago I would still have said that I miss Midularists. They were quasi extinct.
+ Ruthless Caldari like Kitkat or Veik.
+ Old people like Ava Kyllsa or Rodj or Grae. (<3)
+ Thukker loyalists. We had one or two at a time. It was nice.
+ Eastern statues
+ Unbelievable ! Astounding !
- Less strawmen.
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I'd love to see an Austin Powers.
I'm not kidding. Not like, a 100% throw-away joke alt. I mean a long last Intergalactic Man of Mystery.
QUEUE THE CHOREOGRAPHED STREET DANCE IN CAILLE!
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Tropes that make me groan:
Grandstanding. The, "I am the ultimate face of herpaderp!" approach. Noone even tries to pretend they're average.
"They're all dead, Jim!" Families. Nobody has parents. If they do talk about parents, it's because said parents died in a tragic fedo-breeding accident. There aren't any mundane issues like how, say, your character's mother had some ideological disagreement with her parents and they're estranged-- but this would immediately feed into nuanced history and psychology.
Sexual assault and rape histories in RP make me squirm. It-- it often seems to be done casually. It potentially makes light of a very serious thing. I know these things happen, and can have powerful affects on a person's behavior? But it's the nuclear option of character development, and I can't deal with radiation.
Wanted:
More nuanced criminals, and more criminal arpee options. (but this may be because I want Makoto to gradually find her way to the Guristas.)
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Strange as it may seem given the fact that I seem to be part of the snugglefest crowd, I play a dark and rather sinister game when it comes to RP. I just don't publicise it, it comes out in hints and snippets and behind-the-scenes. Used to be a bit more obvious when I was using other characters than Reppy, but a few people can attest to a couple of brutal arcs I've run through.
To be honest, Steff has always had a lingering fear of Reppy...I think part of it was the impression I got from Reppy's portrait, something predatory about the look, and this was before having any interaction with her or getting to know her at all. To be fair, Steff barely knows her still, but is still a little hesitant.
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My very own personal stuff
Tropes that really bother me
- younger characters -- Its hard for me to get into a car driven by a normal 21 yr old in todays day and age. Would I get into a spaceship flown by a 21 yr old who's freaking immortal who might fly into a sun just to see how it feels?
- martial arts! -- every character is trained in martial arts! Its like a requirement for capsuleer academy or something. I focused on Gottii's "ancient martial traditions" cus thats like, the very basic Brutor write up. All the strip mall ninjas in EVE RP kinda take away from Brutor culture, imho
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Is that ok when they are trained because they actually were in a corp where it was the flavour/mandatory ? And especially if they still kinda suck at it ?
Anyway for young people yeah I guess, I don't really like the trope of the young girl that just got out of the academy at 16 and is basically a manic pixie dream girl (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ManicPixieDreamGirl) looking for her brooding male.
However it's not so disturbing to me to see young people. After all they all were engaged in war 70 years ago at 18, or even less in WW1. Ok, granted, that's not normal. Granted also, people study longer and longer before starting their working life (for high studies, in which capsuleers may qualify).
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<snip>
- martial arts! -- every character is trained in martial arts! Its like a requirement for capsuleer academy or something. I focused on Gottii's "ancient martial traditions" cus thats like, the very basic Brutor write up. All the strip mall ninjas in EVE RP kinda take away from Brutor culture, imho
Really? I figured it was reasonable for Arnulf because he graduated from one of the military schools. Maybe it's more the practitioners who do it for self-discipline and fitness benefits (like him) and characters that are supposed to be out-of-capsule tough?
Also, I think there are more bloodlines than the Brutor with a warrior culture. The Khanid come to mind for one.
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Strange as it may seem given the fact that I seem to be part of the snugglefest crowd, I play a dark and rather sinister game when it comes to RP. I just don't publicise it, it comes out in hints and snippets and behind-the-scenes. Used to be a bit more obvious when I was using other characters than Reppy, but a few people can attest to a couple of brutal arcs I've run through.
To be honest, Steff has always had a lingering fear of Reppy...I think part of it was the impression I got from Reppy's portrait, something predatory about the look, and this was before having any interaction with her or getting to know her at all. To be fair, Steff barely knows her still, but is still a little hesitant.
Mission accomplished. :twisted:
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- Super young characters do confuse me, PF-wise, but if they act like adults I don't especially mind. When you've a 20 year old character acting like a modern-day 20 y/o fratboy at every turn, though...
- Characters that tell your their life history--often with some element of overcoming adversity by murdering the oppressor--at the slightest provocation. Frankly, neither me nor my characters care what happened to your character 30 years ago if they didn't ask and they've known him/her for all of five minutes.
- Unceasing text. It occasionally works out if the character is a bit of a motormouth who's hard to shut up, but more typically I get a vibe of "I want to tell this story right the fuck now so everybody else be quiet" from those characters.
- Scientific characters that can't deliver. Any background that the player can't explain or at least pretend to, in fact; the number of capsuleer "scientists" I've seen talk utter shite is beyond belief. It might happen for e.g. military experts, too, but I don't know my arse from my elbow there.
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+ Nuanced shadiness. This isn't necessarily the same as subtle shadiness, either: if it's publicly obvious but has some depth to it, happy day. Conversely, if it reduces to evulz even though it's something that is masterfully concealed with the occasional hint dropped, I really, really don't care.
+ Uncontrived aggression. Yeah, it's nice and all when you set your character/corporation up for a fight with another bunch of RPers, but I do enjoy the spontaneity of it happening with neither IC nor OOC forewarning more.
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- Scientific characters that can't deliver. Any background that the player can't explain or at least pretend to, in fact; the number of capsuleer "scientists" I've seen talk utter shite is beyond belief. It might happen for e.g. military experts, too, but I don't know my arse from my elbow there.
Such is the problem when the character has skills and knowledges far in advance of anything a player is capable of knowing. Then it simply becomes a case of how good is the players skill in coming up with Authentic and Convincing "Technobabble" versus how willing other players are for accepting the "Technobabble" as being plausible for the setting.
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I rather prefer to remain absolutely vague when speaking about scientific stuff that my character is supposed to know. It has worked quite well so far.
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I rather prefer to remain absolutely vague when speaking about scientific stuff that my character is supposed to know. It has worked quite well so far.
I tend to do the same thing with engineering/mechanical stuff with my Sebbie alt so I typically go for a layman's description of what she's trying to get across, which can be fun in and of itself and does let me skirt the issue of not knowing.
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- Scientific characters that can't deliver. Any background that the player can't explain or at least pretend to, in fact; the number of capsuleer "scientists" I've seen talk utter shite is beyond belief. It might happen for e.g. military experts, too, but I don't know my arse from my elbow there.
Such is the problem when the character has skills and knowledges far in advance of anything a player is capable of knowing. Then it simply becomes a case of how good is the players skill in coming up with Authentic and Convincing "Technobabble" versus how willing other players are for accepting the "Technobabble" as being plausible for the setting.
This. Cause let's be honest here; Eve has tech/science that even our best and brightest in the real world couldn't make academically realistic right now...well some stuff, but not all. IT'S ALL IN GOOD FUN!
\o/
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Such is the problem when the character has skills and knowledges far in advance of anything a player is capable of knowing. Then it simply becomes a case of how good is the players skill in coming up with Authentic and Convincing "Technobabble" versus how willing other players are for accepting the "Technobabble" as being plausible for the setting.
If the discussion's gone into technobabble, it's probably gone too far anyway. A skill I value is knowing where to draw the line, what to avoid looking at too closely, &c if EVE-science has to be discussed. I enjoy occasionally considering how some obscure facet of the game might work, but so much of it is unknowable or impossible that not everything can be convincingly discussed without resorting to technobabble. If you're just spewing words out for the sake of their sounding technical, I don't really see a difference between that and e.g. borkborkbork clang sping bop gibberish.
I'm fond of Steffanie's and Lyn's approach. (But I'll leave that there, lest the thread get derailed; always PMs if something needs discussing further.)
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- Scientific characters that can't deliver. Any background that the player can't explain or at least pretend to, in fact; the number of capsuleer "scientists" I've seen talk utter shite is beyond belief. It might happen for e.g. military experts, too, but I don't know my arse from my elbow there.
I get bothered by the military "experts" and a lot of the DUST player shenanigans. I try to let people have their fun and not get in the way. I have to laugh though when I meet a new character, and they tell me, loudly in a crowded bar, that they're an expert at covert operations.
I don't like the victim trope. As an Amarrian player, I feel there's more to the faction than making sure everyone is reminded of how bad Amarr can be. As a Minmatar player, I feel there's more to the faction than everyone overcoming a horrible background in order to rebuild society.
I actually kind of like the pseudoscience technobabble. IRL I don't understand a lot of things and my eyes gloss over. I like that my character can have a similar reaction when people start talking science fiction fictional science.
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As a person who plays a minmatar with living parents, living siblings (minus one who died in a freak accident - farming is dangerous shit, yo) and was born free, I agree with many of the comments here. I also play a young character, Kala is 22, but I don't think I've ever been particularly subject to people complaining about Kala being childish. No more than other, older characters anyway ^_^
Kala is also terrible at martial arts, and gave up in a huff. "I have a spaceship, why would I need a fist, etc, etc"
Grandstanding. The, "I am the ultimate face of herpaderp!" approach. Noone even tries to pretend they're average.
I do :( Kala is supposed to be just a normal girl (or as normal as any capsuleer is anyway)
As for things that annoy me:
Claiming to be related to PF characters. No, you are not Sarum's daughter, don't even try ._.
'Constant Drama' characters. Characters who don't even pretend to be sensible, everything is about grabbing attention and doing :dramatic: things.
Things I like:
Sensibleness
Well thought out back stories that support the PF
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I think Vaun might be more meaning "scientist" characters that do not convey the impression that they know what the scientific method even is.
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Grandstanding. The, "I am the ultimate face of herpaderp!" approach. Noone even tries to pretend they're average.
This is an interesting point for debate!
'Average' is a difficult concept when all of us are playing capsuleers. By definition the .01% of the .01% of humanity. Very, very special snowflakes.
Our collective backgrounds might be from all over - rich, poor, loved, hated, etc. That colors our characters. But we are none of us average as soon as the implants are connected.
Additionally, and especially for older capsuleers, I can't stress enough that becoming effectively immortal and flying millions of tons of hardware with thousands of crew and shooting volkswagon sized nuclear shells at enemies will do all sorts of wierd stuff to a human psychology.
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Additionally, and especially for older capsuleers, I can't stress enough that becoming effectively immortal and flying millions of tons of hardware with thousands of crew and shooting volkswagon sized nuclear shells at enemies will do all sorts of wierd stuff to a human psychology.
How do you know this? Given that nobody has done this in reality.
Bear in mind at one point people felt that travelling at high speed was alarming.
From: http://www.bl.uk/learning/histcitizen/victorians/transport/communication.html (http://www.bl.uk/learning/histcitizen/victorians/transport/communication.html)
Some people feared that such speed might endanger the human frame. Queen Victoria asked the driver to go more slowly than his average speed of 40 miles an hour on her journey from Slough to London, finding the experience terrifying.
We got used to it eventually and people are still people. Why would plugging into ships change us so much?
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I think history has shown that when people are in charge of large masses of humanity and can order them to their deaths willy-nilly, have extreme wealth, and little consequences for their actions, it tends to have psychological implications on their character and how they relate to other people (especially those in the lower classes).
The main part is 'little consequences for behavior.' Capsuleers enjoy much power over life and death with very, very limited consequences.
Human history shows us when social rules go out the window it takes very little prodding and about 3 seconds for many humans to reduce themselves to murdering psycopathic animal machines. Even worse when such behavior is 'encouraged' by a new set of rules. Take the famous 'prison guard' experiments that had to be shut down because average volunteers turned into psychopaths within a few short days.
To boot, even the most despotic rulers of Earths history didn't have nearly the destructive power, and power over life and death for so many people, as the more powerful capsuleers.
Combine this with -immortality- and I think there would be all kinds of unknown, bats-in-the-belfry sorts of crazy manifesting in wierd ways.
*Edit* I think this part of capsuleerdom is SUPER important though. It's the FIGHT for many of us to KEEP our humanity in the face of so much raw power and inhumanity that can be the excellent core of much great character work. Something for your characters to struggle with. Those of us that jump off the crazy deep end of the pool are taking the -easy- route in my opinion, it's you characters that try to fight those urges and stay sane that have more emotional interesting goings on in many cases*
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In a sense, after reading Silas's last couple of posts and thinking about it, CCP seems to have taken a couple of pages from White Wolf's Vampire (Masquerade or Requiem, either works)...where Vampires are no longer human...they merely play at being human (hence the terms masquerade and requiem) in order to remain part of the world they once lived in. In essence, capsuleers are no longer part of what the vast majority of humans consider humanity. We are given essentially free reign to do as we wish, fly around in ships capable of punching holes through a planet's crust, we can buy almost anything we desire, can't die, and there are very few consequences to our actions. Humanity shuns us or worships us, we lock ourselves away in little pods of green goo, interface into massive ships and with but a thought can end the lives of thousands of people. Most of our interaction is through text or holographic projections and all sense of physical intimacy and contact are eroded from our memories.
We are, in essence, closer to the undead vampire than we are to human.
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My main complaint is with people who blatantly disregard the PF. When Dust went live I spoke with several clone soldiers who also claimed to be pilots (and vice versa) even though CCP's unambiguous about the fact that the technologies are incompatible. Another case is the capsuleer who claims not to use a pod but instead flies via some magical tech that wires them to the ship and allows them to be cloned but, still able to walk about and interact with their crews. And speaking of crews, I want to shoot people who continue to claim their ships larger than frigates are totally automated so that they don't have to deal with the messy consequence of their character being responsible for thousands of deaths because they flew a crap-fit Drake into a gatecamp in Amagankme.
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Pretty much everything Anabella said.
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+ Well thought out, plausible characters : Characters where both their virtues and flaws are subtle. Characters don't need to be "The Best" at everything to be interesting. Likewise, "Evil" Characters are better when there are plenty of shades of grey to make their motives ambiguous and their actions understandable rather than making people immediately thinking of a Moustache Twirling Villain tying a pretty helpless Maiden to the Railtracks.
+ Originality : Variety is interesting. 100's of Stereotype Cardboard Cutout Characters is not.
- All Grimdark, All the Time : What's the point in striving for anything if it's automatically doomed to failure because "Grimdark"?
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Amen to that Gabriel. With no light with which to contrast, dark loses most of its meaning. It also gets boring as hell over time. CCP should really take this to heart and flip the light switch to 'ON' more often.
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Most of my likes have already been mentioned. So my dislike, and this may be more or less a minor pet-peeve as opposed to a huge dislike:
-Homogenizing humanity. Its general concepts, growth, ideas, etc. I'm somewhat confused that there are people who think of the greater humanity concept. And while I agree that yes, we are all technically humans that derive from the same point in history (Earth/Terra). The whole EVE gate collapse followed by a reset/growth of four distinct cultures with four distinct ideas of what humanity is, is not something I think should be replaced with our RL/today concept of humanity. I've seen some who think 10 years of a modern Capsuleer era is the be all end all judgment to the rest of humanities course (x4) that has had thousands and thousands of years to develop; and become dismayed that there are considerable head-butting contests between the Empires.
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+ "A Whole New World..." What does your house look like? What about the bridge of your Algos while floating through a gas cloud? What are your station neighbors like? Don't stick to PF! Make your own fiction to go along with it! Player lore is to PF as paint is to walls. Sometimes it can be tacky, but most of the time it looks great.
+ "Military Swag" Show me your uniforms. Introduce me to your XO. Tell me your rank and show me your ribbons. Have heralds trumpet your arrival on the deck of your ships, and whisper sweet nothings into my ear about your victorious campaigns.
+ "YOLO" You're immortal and you've got all the money in the world. Go have some fun. Go sand surfing across a desert world deep in nullsec. Spend a week in an Amarrian monastery. Sample the possibly lethal blowfish of Funtanainen. Hire six whores at once and snort enough Crash to make Charlie Sheen jealous. What's the worst that could happen?... :twisted:
+ "I Like Big Butts, And I Cannot Lie" ... All You Other Eggers Can't Deny.
[spoiler]- "Uneducated Capsuleers" As if becoming a capsuleer is a two weekend training seminar in a rented out strip mall or somebody's basement. We went to some of the most powerful educational institutions in the entire cluster, and these people act like high-school dropouts?! Urgh.
- "Rape/Cheating" One of those is universally bad form in any story. You don't need to include rape to be edgy. Cheating however is a personal disgust for me. I cannot stand it.
- "Depression or Weak Willed" Shyness can be cute, introversion can be intriguing. But a depressed or weak willed character is just uninteresting. My character tends to reject them out of hand and tell them to stay out of the capsule.
- "Crew Killers" Lack of morality or empathy can make a great villian, but the type of character who airlocks their crew to look badass just irritates the hell out of me. It's like driving a car around the city hitting as many pedestrians as you can to impress me. Seriously? I'm supposed to respect that and be afraid and talk about how edgy you are?[/spoiler]
There are some close friends of mine who have characters like this, so I want to point out that while this is a pet peeve of mine, I STILL LOVE YOU AND WOULD TOTES SNUGGLE YOU.
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+ Absurdity. I can so :grimdark:, yeah, totes, y'all, have you met my characters?, but I likes me some rapid fire improvised absurdity. Particularly if it grows organically, is based on the current environment of the involved characters, and does not require much in the way of OOC discussion.
+ Taking things literally. By that, I mean working with what's out there in IC text, and known IC subtext.
+ Keeping things close to the chest.
+ Vherokoir and Ni-Kunni
+ Federation folks who reflect a little more regional flavor. Yeah, we know that folks in Solitude can be xenophobic, but they've also possibly got more of Ni-Kunni and Intaki (and possibly Khanid) folks than they do Matari immigrants. Everyshore is not 100% go-go-gadget Jin-Mei Lirsautton, as I'm sure any Mannar might tell you. I won't mention Federate Caldari, because I've personally beaten that particular horse into a nice pair of boots.
+ Caldari diaspora. What were the quirks of early life for those Caldari who grow up outside of the State (but not as part of the Federation)? E.g., there are tons of Caldari Business Tribunal stations just about everywhere, and lots of Caldari in the Republic and Kingdom, et cetera.
+ Did I mention Vherokoir and Ni-Kunni? Yeah, I know, I can't spell Vherokoir. This is why I like watching them, not playing them.
+ Childhoods in general. Not that I want to see more children, good grief, no, just more people who've thought about how they grew up and what they did before they became a capsuleer.
+ Life in general. Characters who have complications and responsibilities and aren't just Eggs of Death.
+ Atypical characters in general. Machine Shamans. Self-loathing Reborn. Stuff like that.
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Anabella had good stuff to say. Your lolfit drake that you suicided into that lowsec camp was full of people you just got murdered. Time to write letters to their families or embrace being a cold hearted bastard
Again I think it's usually great to see the capsuleers who still have remorse, who try to maintain their human connections, and who struggle with these things.
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Things that engage me...
Humanity. A character that's trying to keep that connection alive.
Reality. Issues that people have in life, rather than just 'Capsuleer Things (tm)'
Evolution. People change, and half the fun for me is watching it happen.
Layers. Finding that the person you see may not be the person you come to know. Everyone has layers of trust, affection, hate, and thought.
Things that shut down my interest faster than dropping a bunker buster on it...
No IC/OOC divide. You are your character, to a degree... But there is still a line. It's a game, and at the end of the day, I play for fun.
Broken record. If I've gotten to the point of where I know when and what will be said, it's gone stale.
Peter Perfect. Everyone is good at something... No one is a master of everything. Weaknesses define a character as much, if not more, than strengths. Worse still is the character who must top everything that everyone else has done or experienced, regardless of what it is...
Constant strife. Conflict is central to life... But it's not a 24/7 constant. There needs to be a balance.
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- martial arts! -- every character is trained in martial arts! Its like a requirement for capsuleer academy or something. I focused on Gottii's "ancient martial traditions" cus thats like, the very basic Brutor write up. All the strip mall ninjas in EVE RP kinda take away from Brutor culture, imho
Really? I figured it was reasonable for Arnulf because he graduated from one of the military schools. Maybe it's more the practitioners who do it for self-discipline and fitness benefits (like him) and characters that are supposed to be out-of-capsule tough?
Also, I think there are more bloodlines than the Brutor with a warrior culture. The Khanid come to mind for one.
Almost every character practices "martial arts" on some level, or adds it to their culture/background. Literally to the point were its rare when someone isnt trained in martial arts.
Which is fine, but, when I decided to RP and play my main as an RP character (needless to say "Gottii" wasnt originally an RP name), I looked at the Brutor backstory, and said "ok, cool, they're a warrior culture, train in it since birth, martial arts and physical prowess are important to them..."
Then, you start RPing.... (exaggerated)
Caldari 1: "So, tell me of your people brutor!"
Amarr 1: "Speak heathen, we wish to know!"
Gallente 1: "I find your traditions so quaint and interesting!"
Brutor: "Um, well, we're a martial based people, we practice our martial traditions since childhood, and we..."
Gallente: "OMG, we do that too! I've been trained in ancient Jin-mei arts since I was a child! Its been our traditions since forever! We should spar or something!
Brutor: "Really? Wow, okay, I guess we share that...I didnt know..."
Caldari: "Weak Gallente know nothing about martial arts. I've been trained in deadly Civire arts since I was a child. Its an ingrained part of our very life! We're widely regarded as the best"
Brutor: "Wow, uhh, I thought the Caldari didnt value esoteric arts?
Caldari: "Nonsense. Martial arts are central to our life, Im an expert at it."
Amarr: "Ignore these fools! I've been trained in the ways of martial excellence by my Houses very best martial teachers since I was a small child! It is the tradition in our House to emphasize such things! We are feared the Cluster over!"
Amarr: "But enough about us, tell us more of your people..."
Brutor: "Well, uhh, its kinda like what ya'll do, but...well, without the yanno, Amarr, Caldari or Gallente bits."
Im exaggerating, but everyone having that background kinda leaves you with very little thats distinctive or defining in Brutor culture. Do Brutor have a monopoly on such things? Of course not. But the write up on the Brutor would seem to imply that a focus on martial traditions and physical training is rare and unique enough to be distinctive, its their "thing". But it can be frustrating when your distinctive racial background is pretty much the norm for every other PC you run into.
Again, before Im flamed, nothing wrong with characters of other bloodlines and background practicing martial traditions, etc. Its just that its become so watered down that its hard to create a Brutor background that doesnt seem watered down in return.
Re: Martial arts and the military.
I can promise you this.
The military couldn't really care less about teaching its people martial arts, at least the ancient, comprehensive kinds.
Yes, even the high end soldiers. Its a labor intensive skill that has very little battlefield application in todays day and age. They dont like to say it, but guys like SEALS or SAS members or whatever arent really trained all that much in martial arts per se, theyre trained in a couple basic hand to hand techniques before moving on to more meaningful skills (marksmanship, insertion techniques, comms use, foreign language, explosives, or any one of the vast number of other skills they need).
In fact, in CQB, theyre trained not to fight per se. You either shoot them, or ram the barrel of your gun into their skull, or yell at them to drop their weapons and surrender (maybe, maybe stab them with a knife if theyre cowboys). Thats about it. Punching or kicking or ju-jitsu wrestling or whatever takes too long, and will get your squadies killed.
Keep in mind that in most cases to teach a traditional martial art takes a long time, and a lot of effort. The military only has its high end soldiers for a relatively short amount of time before they retire/go nuts from PTSD/die/body gives out, etc. The military wants to teach the skills that give the best bang for their buck on the battlefield. Teaching roundhouses and joint locks isnt exactly the most efficient use of a soldiers limited training life.
Does this mean your typical guy who trains at the MMA gym can take say a SEAL or Israeli commando in a fight? Of course not. A typical spec ops soldier is a naturally aggressive exceptional athlete who's completely emotionally at ease inflicting grievous bodily harm upon another human being. They would thrash the typical civilian "martial artist", simply because most people, even trained ring fighters, arent really at ease going from 0 to "ram a finger in your eye socket and literally pull out your eyeball" in .6 secs. Truly elite soldiers are, and that matters far more in highly stressful life or death situations where most fine body control disappears anyway.
They dont engage in "social violence" like a bar fight, they're there to kill.
Sure, many soldiers are trained in 6 month set hand-to-hand courses, but thats not what most people think of when they think of "martial arts". The reason why military-based martial arts are occasionally in vogue is because they taught a basic and effective set of combat skills in a relatively short amount of time. But, again, they're primal and basic and in many cases more a morale boosting exercise.
Sure, say like the U.S. Marines teach its members a punch, a kick, and a couple throws over the span of a few months, but no serious trainer would say they're "trained" after all of that. Many high end soldiers practice some kind of martial arts as a hobby (generally learned before they joined up), and some units encourage it for cultural reasons (south korean commandos come to mind), but its hardly universal, or really necessary.
Are there some high end civilian martial artists who could beat say a typical commando in a straight up fist fight? Sure, but they're very, very rare. But learning to punch, kick, use a sword, etc has so little to do with the modern battlefield that soldiers are far better off learning other more important, less time and labor intensive skills, and generally they do.
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Yeah pretty much.
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I would probably agree on the martial arts and the need to spar everything in sight can be a bit weird when I think capsuleers already have access to extremely destructive spaceships - why not duel in those?
I sometimes wonder if that's "Katana syndrome" I notice in other games as in: Yes, I'm well aware the setting means everyone has guns, but through my mad katana skills I will defeat them all while looking as completely cool as possible. That or it might be people just wanting to measure and compare their e-peens.
My characters with a military background know hand-to-hand/CQB techniques but I always centered them on being relevant to the setting. They probably don't know some totally sweet flying kicks but they'd probably know how to quickly clear a space between their opponent to shoot them centre of mass with a rifle, freely clear their sidearm, or if all else fails do a throw and beat the other guy's skull in with an entrenching tool.
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My character knows the Caldari cousin of Tai Chi, but only practices it more as a health art. It was taught to her in order to teach her self control, and ends up being a "soft" martial art that doesn't really do any damage but protects her and uses the attacker's force against them.
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I've never liked the martial artist capsuleer in general, or any other "I could be played by Jason Statham or anyone else in the Expendables" physical super soldier capsuleer gimmicks. It's been my view that, given how capsuleers get into their space ships and these ships are the extension of themselves, their bodies, then all of their training and augmentations are rightly in their mental attributes - as reflected by the game mechanics and the character sheet.
I don't have a character with 18 STR and 24 DEX because why would he bother? It wouldn't make him a more effective pilot in any way, shape or form. I've seen some examples of people who weren't good at PvP in their spaceships RPing characters who could kick seven peoples' asses simultaneously using only finger strikes. It's an RP turn-off for me for sure, just as much as people who ARE good at PvP in their spaceships having this 'trait' for their character. Given that there is no game mechanic for killing another character outside of the spaceship PvP game, it all seems pointless to me as a character focus, except in the case of the Brutor who have it PF'd into them.
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I've never liked the martial artist capsuleer in general, or any other "I could be played by Jason Statham or anyone else in the Expendables" physical super soldier capsuleer gimmicks. It's been my view that, given how capsuleers get into their space ships and these ships are the extension of themselves, their bodies, then all of their training and augmentations are rightly in their mental attributes - as reflected by the game mechanics and the character sheet.
I don't have a character with 18 STR and 24 DEX because why would he bother? It wouldn't make him a more effective pilot in any way, shape or form. I've seen some examples of people who weren't good at PvP in their spaceships RPing characters who could kick seven peoples' asses simultaneously using only finger strikes. It's an RP turn-off for me for sure, just as much as people who ARE good at PvP in their spaceships having this 'trait' for their character. Given that there is no game mechanic for killing another character outside of the spaceship PvP game, it all seems pointless to me as a character focus, except in the case of the Brutor who have it PF'd into them.
Would you feel the same for a self-defense art? Considering how otherwise fragile capsuleers tend to be, would it not make sense for them to learn some sort of defense art as well as training in cardio and other escape-relevant aspects?
The ability to dodge a punch or not hesitate and lock up when you see a gun drawn on you from within a crowd, and the ability to run as fast as you can for as long as you can while your security team holds off whoever is pursuing you... those seem like pretty essential survival skills for a high value kidnapping or assassination target.
I'm not talking about Bruce Lee or the Terminator here. I'm talking about physical and martial survival skills.
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I see Havo more as having a bodyguard or two following him about and having a high enough perception score (after augmentations) to quickly perceive a threat, grab one of his bodyguards by the shoulder and pull the guard between himself and the threat while shouting the alarum.
Taking up a tai-chi sort of thing as a hobby, as your character for instance, sure, that's reasonable. It's more the sort of thing Gottii talks about above that I also dislike. The capsuleer-as-expert-out-of-pod-fighter/soldier, to me, is unreasonable given the overall theme of the thing. I'm a frikken billionaire, why am I ever going to be in a fist fight with anyone for any reason, let alone a shoot out (outside of spaceships)? Feels like a waste of ISK to me.
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I'm a frikken billionaire, why am I ever going to be in a fist fight with anyone for any reason, let alone a shoot out (outside of spaceships)? Feels like a waste of ISK to me.
Waste of ISK is a good example. A single clone of Kat's costs more than an entire division of bodyguards' annual salaries put together. Possibly more.
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Exactly. I think most capsuleers would be cold and uncaring about their employees' salaries and pay as little as they can get away with without having to worry about employee backstabbing more than usual. So why risk the ISK invested in your clone's augmentations on a 'street brawl' or gun fight when bodyguards are so cheap? ^^
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Both Elysa and Reppy are competent duellists, but... well, Elysa was brought up in a military academy from the age of 8, and Reppy basically got sick of having to rely on other people protecting her. She will still have bodyguards around the place, and won't take any risks - but at the same time, what's better? Having a highly capable cadre of soldiers follow her around when she feels like she needs some extra protection, or having that and knowing that if it comes to it, you can punch someone's nose through their brain? It's more a psychological boost than anything, and there's definitely an element of self-discipline and hobby to it, but as confidence boosts go, it's significant.
Neither is a character that is going to make a full Bruce Lee act their opening gambit in a bad situation, but it's an element in their arsenals. Or at least, that's my justification.
Also helps that Reppy has a slightly very totally deranged fondness for getting her hands dirty.
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I think Capsuleers are possibly the most obvious sufferers of Syndrome Syndrome I've ever encountered.
Everybody is Special™ so nobody is Special™.
This leads players to trying to create characters that stand out, often at the expense of PF or sanity.
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<snip>
Re: Martial arts and the military.
I can promise you this.
The military couldn't really care less about teaching its people martial arts, at least the ancient, comprehensive kinds.
Yes, even the high end soldiers. Its a labor intensive skill that has very little battlefield application in todays day and age.
<snip>
Fair point. However how many military establishments encourage taking up some sort of martial sport such as boxing? Unless I am mistaken quite a lot of them. That's the context I had in mind for Arnulf.
Also, his father is Brutor. So in part he is participating in Brutor culture.
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I don't find it implausible that all Caldari characters (those born/living in the State) would have a basic working knowledge of rudimentary forms of self-defense. They're all trained as soldiers at some point.
In collaboration with this thought, and from RL experience/accounting - it in not uncommon for a soldier/sailor/marine/airman to find the techniques taught to them through their various basic trainings and then AIT/Technical School, etc. an interest and seek slots in more advanced courses in various branches or taking up a martial art as a hobby. I would agree that leadership encourages these things...but not necessarily to make you a better fighter. It's more or less a "better you're learning jiu jitsu at the studio and staying fit than drinking at a bar and getting busted with a DUI."
I dislike being given the impression that a character is like something from Street Fighter, a consummate warrior whose impressive martial prowess is something to be feared and is on high alert at all times. It's almost the opposite of a god-mod with NPCs. We acknowledge never assuming a punch is landed, but these types always assume they are untouchable in any situation, or always ready and capable of picking out an aggressor. It just isn't believable.
I have a co-worker who'd gone through the USAF Combat Control courses and admits to being a terrible marksman at any sort of range due to their training emphasizing short range engagements where that level of skill is unnecessary. My dad (still in the Army (a mix of Active and Reserve, he can't make up his mind) these past 32 years and working on 33) is a 2nd degree black belt in Tang Soo Do and has told me on numerous occasions that not once in any situation within his entire career has any of the martial art he studied come into play. He's instead utilized the various CQC/self-defensive tactics courses taught that don't emphasize that style of fighting (i.e. Jet Li/Bruce Lee movie kind).
As far as thinking the martial art will make you ready at all times:
-I've watched a trained soldier get his eye knocked out of its socket by a scrawny college student in a club over a girl because he was caught off guard.
-I was able to sleep through rocket attacks, car bombs, and machine gun fire while in Iraq because mentally I was expecting these things and was prepared should they happen. It took at least a month (I can't pinpoint the exact time length) after I'd returned to quit jumping at every slammed door or dropped package that sounded vaguely explosion like because mentally, I was no longer prepared. Trying to run at that level for too long wears you out. When a bomb goes off, everyone ducks, even the badass. It's that ducking that gives those with the training to switch on that mental mode to start taking action.
In support of being ready at a moments notice in a crowd...I agree that it's possible, but requires training.
Long ago, when Antonio Banderas' Mask of Zorro came out, my dad took me to the premiere because he loved Zorro. The theater was filling and he and I were picking our seats when somewhere in the front row some dude grabs a lady's purse and makes for the emergency exit. I had barely registered the fact that he was a bad person before I was witnessing my dad slamming the man face first through that exit door and into the arms of a bewildered Zorro expecting to be the savior or what turned out to be a mock robbery. Not a single other person in that near packed theater had even attempted to stop the guy. My dad was singular in the category of those who acted in that moment within that span of seconds.
I apologize if I got a little daddy worship in this post...but they're (and the couple other examples I listed) the most firsthand accounts I had that influence what I take as believable in an RP character. Not to say that the Bruce Lee types cannot exist...but if he did, why would any organization give up that level of soldier to a capsuleer program that would no longer benefit them in the here/now?
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+ More "regular" characters - you know, the everyman joe.
+ More commoners for Amarr; I'm increasingly hearing that it's difficult to do anything as a commoner character lately because you get walked over by all the (sometimes only-days-old) Holder characters pulling rank on you. Admittedly I'm not exactly helping this with Esna being a Holder and all, but it's still something I'd like to see worked on.
+ More characters who don't want to start an argument or fight at every moment. Bonus points for educated, modern Amarrians and Minmatar of both tribalist and Republic orientation.
+ Worldbuilding: Because we're seriously not in danger of running out of planets to build on any time soon.
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- "Saving the world science": As someone put it recently, failing is as important as succeeding in science. Furthermore, when you do succeed, it is often months before your results are complete enough to be announced and years before anything actually comes of it.
- Incessant grimdark and forced conflict. Dear good god, the incessant grimdark. Ana said it well, but I'll restate: It's highly unfun when all your worldbuilding is torn apart for the sake of conflict.
- The classic frustrating tropes - the abused slave, the abused ex-slave, the most-depressing-backstory-ever character...
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+ More commoners for Amarr; I'm increasingly hearing that it's difficult to do anything as a commoner character lately because you get walked over by all the (sometimes only-days-old) Holder characters pulling rank on you. Admittedly I'm not exactly helping this with Esna being a Holder and all, but it's still something I'd like to see worked on.
"I do not serve your House, Lord [newbie]."
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+ More commoners for Amarr; I'm increasingly hearing that it's difficult to do anything as a commoner character lately because you get walked over by all the (sometimes only-days-old) Holder characters pulling rank on you. Admittedly I'm not exactly helping this with Esna being a Holder and all, but it's still something I'd like to see worked on.
"I do not serve your House, Lord [newbie]."
Could pull the -yawn- "I'm an empyrean last I checked so undock and make me", but... it is generally considered impolite.
Did make me lol though... I need to stop reading forums on the kindle before sleeping.
I really haven't been able to think in depth on this topic as to what I like and dislike yet, and least nothing new to add. It was drilled into my head by people to start from the bottom.. and i get stepped on alot down here ;) .
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+ Amarr commoners
+ The human(e) capsuleer
+ The intelligent capsuleer
- Incessant grimdark and forced conflict.
- Matari are SW's rebels
- Amarr are SW's empire
Playing an Amarr commoner I have to say I never had the problem of Holder's pulling rank on me - or even trying to do so. Oftentimes Nico rather has the problem of explaining that she is not a noble at all. Even after making that blatantly clear no one ever demanded anything of Nico because they were a Holder.
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+ More "regular" characters - you know, the everyman joe.
+ More commoners for Amarr; I'm increasingly hearing that it's difficult to do anything as a commoner character lately because you get walked over by all the (sometimes only-days-old) Holder characters pulling rank on you. Admittedly I'm not exactly helping this with Esna being a Holder and all, but it's still something I'd like to see worked on.
Yeah...
You can't even imagine how starting an amarrian noble character is the choice I regret the most... Somehow, it makes for interesting case scenarios where I can perfectly pull my noble rank on PIE lapdogs that usually come japing at my character, and it still leaves them options since it's an ammatar title not official to Empire law, but still under the protection of Ardishapur.
But that's the only benefit I see to it honestly.
+ Worldbuilding: Because we're seriously not in danger of running out of planets to build on any time soon.
That gives me an idea...
[/quote]
+ More commoners for Amarr; I'm increasingly hearing that it's difficult to do anything as a commoner character lately because you get walked over by all the (sometimes only-days-old) Holder characters pulling rank on you. Admittedly I'm not exactly helping this with Esna being a Holder and all, but it's still something I'd like to see worked on.
"I do not serve your House, Lord [newbie]."
It depends of the context.
If he asks you to do something for him, then no, you do not serve him.
If he asks you for respect and you are a commoner, you are obliged to do so. It can be very useful when a commoner Amarrian comes aggressively into your character imo.
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+ More commoners for Amarr; I'm increasingly hearing that it's difficult to do anything as a commoner character lately because you get walked over by all the (sometimes only-days-old) Holder characters pulling rank on you. Admittedly I'm not exactly helping this with Esna being a Holder and all, but it's still something I'd like to see worked on.
"I do not serve your House, Lord [newbie]."
It depends of the context.
If he asks you to do something for him, then no, you do not serve him.
If he asks you for respect and you are a commoner, you are obliged to do so. It can be very useful when a commoner Amarrian comes aggressively into your character imo.
Do the various houses respect each other? It seems to me that a Sarum loyalists would not think very highly of a Tash-Murkon Holder. Certainly there's room for conflict there?
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+ Happy family history, preferably with living relatives. Extra ++ For Minmatar characters of this type.
+ Humility
+ Pirate loyalists that embrace the cuthroat lifestyle or embrace the monster PF depicts them as without going overboard.
- 1 day old Captain Jack Steelpower Ultra-Killdozer- The Universal Masterchief McBadass. King of air, land, sea and space with a machinegun arms and a cyborg endoskeleton. "I've seen some shit in my super tactical SECRET BLACK OPS CAREER THAT'S LASTED OVER 150 YEARS"
- Pirate that play the "I am just misunderstood humanitarian scoundrel fighting the good fight against evil entity X"
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Do the various houses respect each other? It seems to me that a Sarum loyalists would not think very highly of a Tash-Murkon Holder. Certainly there's room for conflict there?
Tash-Murkon Udorian scum.
I have always had the opinion that more inter-house rivalry is exactly what the Empire needs.
More poisonings, more duels, more crushing of rivals and settling of centuries-long simmering rivalries.
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+ More commoners for Amarr; I'm increasingly hearing that it's difficult to do anything as a commoner character lately because you get walked over by all the (sometimes only-days-old) Holder characters pulling rank on you. Admittedly I'm not exactly helping this with Esna being a Holder and all, but it's still something I'd like to see worked on.
"I do not serve your House, Lord [newbie]."
It depends of the context.
If he asks you to do something for him, then no, you do not serve him.
If he asks you for respect and you are a commoner, you are obliged to do so. It can be very useful when a commoner Amarrian comes aggressively into your character imo.
Do the various houses respect each other? It seems to me that a Sarum loyalists would not think very highly of a Tash-Murkon Holder. Certainly there's room for conflict there?
Sure, you can perfectly hate a Holder of another house. You can even hate a holder of your own house, even if he is not your lord.
At least, speaking against a holder above you in the social ladder while being yourself a Holder might be ok, though maybe not the wisest thing to do.
But speaking against (especially insulting/aggressing) a holder of any house with a commoner status, or worse, sure equals to a high insult, and if you are not a capsuleer, I would wager that the Holder is maybe in his right to outright kill you if you serve him, and if not, asking for compensation from your own lord, which can probably mean death/slavery/whatever, unless you are really valuable...
I too think there is room for conflict, being going openly against someone of higher status is of course possible, but probably not the wisest thing to do in that case. I am pretty sure that in the Amarr Empire, one does not just cross the divine social order like that.
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Is it me or did the wording in this article chage recently? https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Amarr_Empire
That or there's a different almost identical one that also used to contain links to all the different cronicles, etc.. *bashes head against Wiki*
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+ More commoners for Amarr; I'm increasingly hearing that it's difficult to do anything as a commoner character lately because you get walked over by all the (sometimes only-days-old) Holder characters pulling rank on you. Admittedly I'm not exactly helping this with Esna being a Holder and all, but it's still something I'd like to see worked on.
I haven't had this problem with Hadi, but he's a Jersey sort of Amarr commoner: He supports the Empress, but that doesn't mean that he's every Holder's tool. I really need to trot him out more. Damn you, RL...
As far as martial arts capsuleers go, I totally agree with what most folks here are saying. There are far too many invincible warrior princes(ses). Hadi used to be an MP in the Imperial Navy, with all the attendant personal combat experience that would go along with that. That doesn't mean that he'd come out on top against someone who really did train their whole life. Shin, on the other hand, is just fragile. The last time she was in a physical fight she was nearly killed. To compound this, her artificial immune system has oddball side effects, rendering her deathly allergic to a sizable minority of the human race (if you've ever wondered why she always wears gloves, this is why). To her, physical combat is something you pay experts to handle for you.
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- The psycho capsuleer.
Yes, I know why CCP promote it. The trope fits well with the crazed behaviour of most of the players. But it seems wrong that we can screw with the world and get next to no penalty for doing so.
Also I am irked by people that mess with things just for the sake of doing so, the Joker option. People that do this in reality tend to get squished. Even if they are rich & powerful eventually they will annoy enough of their peers to get taken down. EVE seems to have this sort of behaviour as a norm.
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On the more commoners front: I would also like to see more low ranked nobles that are secure in their status. It seems to me that the vast majority of true Amarr pod pilots would probably fall into this category. Kindof think we need more people who own the Amarrian equivalent of a single manor, but who also have long enough lineages that they aren't worried about losing their status.
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I kindof played that kind of minor nobility at first but I decided to half jeopardize it for RP's sake and coherence... Though the nobility remains, at least, even without holdings.
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On the more commoners front: I would also like to see more low ranked nobles that are secure in their status. It seems to me that the vast majority of true Amarr pod pilots would probably fall into this category. Kindof think we need more people who own the Amarrian equivalent of a single manor, but who also have long enough lineages that they aren't worried about losing their status.
This was essentially the Tyrathlion status until Reppy took over and started injecting capsuleer funds in to expand her planetside assets, and hence political weight.
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Pretty much where Esna is as well, although he is deliberately silent regarding his Holdings.
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I like to meet more RPers who believe that the best response to any perceived slight is to fly to whichever place you hole up in and ram a warhead/shell up your thrusters. And he actively does that.
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I like to meet more RPers who believe that the best response to any perceived slight is to fly to whichever place you hole up in and ram a warhead/shell up your thrusters. And he actively does that.
If only PvP were that simple.
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I like to meet more RPers who believe that the best response to any perceived slight is to fly to whichever place you hole up in and ram a warhead/shell up your thrusters. And he actively does that.
This is practically impossible. Only if RP about that.
Well, I have tried this a couple of times. You see, gateguns, CONCORD... Got blown up by these and those. Another time was waiting for several hours for a person to undock - never happened.
It's quite hard to meet roleplayers in a situation where you could actually ram your missiles into their... thrusters.
Well, I don't say I won't stop trying, but, meh... chances I actually get someone are rather slim. :ugh:
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I like to meet more RPers who believe that the best response to any perceived slight is to fly to whichever place you hole up in and ram a warhead/shell up your thrusters. And he actively does that.
This is practically impossible. Only if RP about that.
Well, I have tried this a couple of times. You see, gateguns, CONCORD... Got blown up by these and those. Another time was waiting for several hours for a person to undock - never happened.
It's quite hard to meet roleplayers in a situation where you could actually ram your missiles into their... thrusters.
Well, I don't say I won't stop trying, but, meh... chances I actually get someone are rather slim. :ugh:
Game mechanics make it plenty easy to avoid fighting if they choose to, but then that's on you and your RP to let everyone know this is happening. Violence is the method of choice for plenty though. But as capsuleers remember we can't actually -kill- each other in any permanent way. We can only kill you stuff, alienate you friends, sap your will to resist, embarrass you publicly, etc.
More RPers are afraid of losing their reputations than any material. Like we say it's your only real currency.
Silas said something that upset Makkal Hanaya once; she immediately jumped in a combat ship, set the autopilot the 50 jumps or whatever, and headed straight over to have it out. The result wasn't important, the act of -doing something- gave her more IC and OOC credit in that 30 minutes than some people ever earn in years of forum warfare.
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That's actually something I tend to loathe. You are only considered in a positive way if you have "balls". When I OOCly and ICly consider that actually having "balls" is just behaving like an animal, that my character will actually tell you every time that "winning a stupid space fight has nothing to do with you being right or wrong", then that mentality starts to seriously get annoying at a personal level.
I perfectly understand that this has become de facto the general capsuleer ideal, but sometimes I would really like to see capsuleers thinking otherwise and detaching themselves from the testosterone mentality.
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That's actually something I tend to loathe. You are only considered in a positive way if you have "balls". When I OOCly and ICly consider that actually having "balls" is just behaving like an animal, that my character will actually tell you every time that "winning a stupid space fight has nothing to do with you being right or wrong", then that mentality starts to seriously get annoying at a personal level.
I perfectly understand that this has become de facto the general capsuleer ideal, but sometimes I would really like to see capsuleers thinking otherwise and detaching themselves from the testosterone mentality.
This is perfectly valid, I meant only that I respected action being taken; unless the character is a professed pacifist I often expect people to do -something- against their opponents, shooting them in space is just the most common solution. There is also economic, social, and other types of aggressive action.
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Yeah I was just rambling. Since it's the thread about what we wish to see more, then I would like to see more people with others way to deal with enemies. And likewise, less people thinking that "i disagree with you so i'm coming to ruin your face so that will make me right". Not that the latter is bad, at the contrary, but too common in my taste, for supposedly educated capsuleers.
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Almost forgot, personal pet peeve of mine : people that use "I can't believe that you made me agree with X", where X is an usual mortal enemy, to point out how demented a point might be to make both people agree. It's so trite...
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That's actually something I tend to loathe. You are only considered in a positive way if you have "balls". When I OOCly and ICly consider that actually having "balls" is just behaving like an animal, that my character will actually tell you every time that "winning a stupid space fight has nothing to do with you being right or wrong", then that mentality starts to seriously get annoying at a personal level.
I perfectly understand that this has become de facto the general capsuleer ideal, but sometimes I would really like to see capsuleers thinking otherwise and detaching themselves from the testosterone mentality.
This is perfectly valid, I meant only that I respected action being taken; unless the character is a professed pacifist I often expect people to do -something- against their opponents, shooting them in space is just the most common solution. There is also economic, social, and other types of aggressive action.
This ;)
Silas back when Luna was still in shy/fearful mode, you might remember she tried to set up a meeting. I hoped to have her meet you by flying her ship to low sec (Internally to "confront her fears"). I figured it'd either be interesting rp meeting, you'd blow her up, or she'd escape by the skin of her teeth and I'd play off from there. Sadly, it never happened. :(
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That's actually something I tend to loathe. You are only considered in a positive way if you have "balls". When I OOCly and ICly consider that actually having "balls" is just behaving like an animal, that my character will actually tell you every time that "winning a stupid space fight has nothing to do with you being right or wrong", then that mentality starts to seriously get annoying at a personal level.
I perfectly understand that this has become de facto the general capsuleer ideal, but sometimes I would really like to see capsuleers thinking otherwise and detaching themselves from the testosterone mentality.
This is perfectly valid, I meant only that I respected action being taken; unless the character is a professed pacifist I often expect people to do -something- against their opponents, shooting them in space is just the most common solution. There is also economic, social, and other types of aggressive action.
This ;)
Silas back when Luna was still in shy/fearful mode, you might remember she tried to set up a meeting. I hoped to have her meet you by flying her ship to low sec (Internally to "confront her fears"). I figured it'd either be interesting rp meeting, you'd blow her up, or she'd escape by the skin of her teeth and I'd play off from there. Sadly, it never happened. :(
You know where I live :P
Come bang on the gates and call me out any time. Or come blow up friends of mine, or come start reading the pax amarr in local until it makes our ears bleed, or get some friends to come shoot me WHILE you read the pax amarr until my ears bleed.
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I've passed through local with Silas 3 times in the last week. He keep ignoring me. ._. (JK <3 you)
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This is a somewhat random aside.
Back when Silas was doing that investment opportunity thingy I flirted with the idea of investing solely for "RP". I took an alt that worked for my main and bought an Echelon, then flew to Khanid space and stalked her for a week to "investigate" what she was doing. Nothing ever happened with it but it was fun. I think the Echelon is still in Gehi..
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I've passed through local with Silas 3 times in the last week. He keep ignoring me. ._. (JK <3 you)
Maybe that's because she actually loves him.... literally. :eek:
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You know where I live :P
Come bang on the gates and call me out any time. Or come blow up friends of mine, or come start reading the pax amarr in local until it makes our ears bleed, or get some friends to come shoot me WHILE you read the pax amarr until my ears bleed.
If you didn't live so gods damn FAR AWAY UGH.
But I sort of agree with the whole action thing too. Slowly but surely, I'm working towards that. I could just bum rush someone who pissed me off but the results would be laughable. Because honestly, you can jump in and show 'balls' all you want, but at the end of the day it only really matters whether you won or lost the fight.
Patience is a virtue etc, etc.
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but at the end of the day it only really matters whether you won or lost the fight.
Actually I super disagree with this. It's hard to separate ooc winning and losing with ic winning and losing sometimes, but losing hard IC and publicly can be a great thing, and its always good to be knocked down a few pegs now and then.
S. likes to maintain her aura of superiority as much as possible (and there's always excuses for bad things), but in the last few years she's lost an entire region of null sec and has had two separate alliance tournament teams derp out from under her, spectacularly badly and in public. Not to mention Aldrith and his cyberknights butchering scores of acolytes and beheading her closest baseliner lieutenant..... She is still shooting like 95% in ship to ship combat but it's not all roses in le grande schemes.... yet....
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Bloody roses. That aren't actually roses. Just more blood.
But I can see your point I suppose. Guess it's a difference in opinions.
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Bloody roses. That aren't actually roses. Just more blood.
But I can see your point I suppose. Guess it's a difference in opinions.
Well just that it's sometimes good for "character development" to get your ass kicked now and then in a variety of different ways
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OK so less a difference in definition of 'winning' or whatever, and more from a character building perspective. OK, then I agree with you. It forces you to think way outside the box to get credit back etc.
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This is specifially why Arista does not shit talk on forums or elsewhere. As a capuleer (and I as a nervous person IRL) will not back it up with lazors, so Ari is guilt as a mild RP toon. So i relfect that in RP.
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In my recent experience a few people have attempted to use violence in space over RP. So far I think the end result has just been my character sipping a tea at her desk, and having a chuckle as she wonders to herself, "Why are these guys so mad?" while they end up looking hilariously stupid as far as she's concerned.
My entire RP reflects the fact that I enjoy nothing more than to just hop into frigates and roam around for some casual solo/small gang pew pew. Threats or use of in-space violence isn't going to have the effect some roleplayers seem to think it will either on my character or her organization.
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Until they take your fleet composition and swarm/catch you. Random 'insert expensive shit here solo to be 2edgy4u' is just not going to work. But an organized effort to actually take on a fleet? You can't ignore that.
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I read it more as "shit's cheap, so if we lose some, lol who cares, we got fights"? Might be misinterpreting Veik's comment though.
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Actually that's probably more logical since I like it that way too. Sorry for being defensive ^^;
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Until they take your fleet composition and swarm/catch you. Random 'insert expensive shit here solo to be 2edgy4u' is just not going to work. But an organized effort to actually take on a fleet? You can't ignore that.
What fleets? I solo in 5 - 30 mil frigs and the largest fleets we regularly field are 5 man gangs. Being in frigs means you can maintain a high degree of initiative and mobility which means you can generally pick and choose what fights to take. Sure, not much to do against a fleet with enough fast tackle etc., but at the end of the day it's just a frig lost and I'll have many more just like them.
The worst part of losing a ship isn't losing it for me, it's the having to go back to base to fetch or fit up a new one. You might have missed the point I was making, that it's pointless to try and break someone's morale if they have no emotional stake in losing spaceships.
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Oh no I admit I misinterpreted lol. I feel the same way to an extent. Smaller ships just make life easier...also it is quite annoying having to refit. If there was a buy all items button next to the fit all items button, I'd be so happy = =
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Devil's advocate:
Other characters might not take you seriously conflict wise if you aren't willing to risk more expensive assets or commit to more meaningful losses to secure your interests.
It's hard to have in space conflicts with others when they are not putting things out there that are a risk to them financially or reputationally. IE you put up a poco, I can shoot it, you put up a tower, I can shoot it, you say this area is yours to use, I can deny you access, etc.
Again its perfectly valid for any character to choose not to risk their big assets or risk the lives of tons of baseliner crews by flying small ships (we hear these reasons plenty). But on the other hand it's hard sometimes to have meaningful engagement with pvpers who use this strategy and put nothing out to lose.
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Even if pricey assets aren't risked in combat...so what? Not to be rude, I just don't get it. If my 40mil isk worth of 24 shitfit frigates and destroyers wiped out your (not YOU Silas, just in general) expensive roam, costing you 534million isk in damage to the 8mil isk loses we took...so what if I flew small ships? I still wiped you out, you lost your pricey stuff.
That's not something that can really just be brushed off
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Asymetric warfare is super valid and can induce much ragefacing.
I remember Star Fraction had an RP war once where they used nothing but t1 cruisers (back when they were awful), they suffered rediculous losses but they could reship and rejoin the fights instantly, and put a world of hurt on their much larger-shipped enemies.
BUT it takes two to tango, so you still need the enemy to be bringing something to the table.
And that's not to say two groups doing the frigate thing is bad but it's more that both have to be shown as -trying- and that they care about losses.
If your character doesn't have anything to lose and doesn't care, then no one has anything to gain by participating with them
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I'm gonna echo Silas here. I mean, Im gonna go out on a limb here, but I think its a bad thing that frigate-PVP has become the standard RP PVP platform of choice.
Part of it is FW, where obviously they shine, but for the most part I wish RPers were more willing to utilize other ships and project power rather than merely generate "good fights".
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Once Silas dueled me but Aldrith apologized :ugh:
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When I'm out pew-pew'ing I make the assumption that everyone is going to seek to use maintain as much advantage as they can -- whether it's in sp, ships fielded, numbers, or OGB -- while seeking to force engagement on their terms as much as possible. I will seek to do the same. That dynamic doesn't suddenly change just because the other side are, "Roleplayers" to me.
At the end of the day, I haven't been the one issuing threats or making grandiose claims in my RP. I know and am aware of my own present capabilities and that of my organization, and I'm not going write cheques I can't cash with some pew pew. If in the future, capabilities develop and grow, sure I'd drop a PoCo and say something like, "Hey guys we might be deploying jackboots all over this planet right here and deploying chemical weapons in urban centres. Disagree? Come at us then!"
Then again, what would I care if other characters think reputation is based on how much you put on the line or how shiny the fleets are? To me that's a very nullsec sov attitude to things, and I've shot enough F1 key null guys in small gang/frig fights in low sec to not take that view myself - because I care more about having a fight if I can and not trying to impress people with how many POS modules show up on my killboard or whatever.
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When I'm out pew-pew'ing I make the assumption that everyone is going to seek to use maintain as much advantage as they can -- whether it's in sp, ships fielded, numbers, or OGB -- while seeking to force engagement on their terms as much as possible. I will seek to do the same. That dynamic doesn't suddenly change just because the other side are, "Roleplayers" to me.
At the end of the day, I haven't been the one issuing threats or making grandiose claims in my RP. I know and am aware of my own present capabilities and that of my organization, and I'm not going write cheques I can't cash with some pew pew. If in the future, capabilities develop and grow, sure I'd drop a PoCo and say something like, "Hey guys we might be deploying jackboots all over this planet right here and deploying chemical weapons in urban centres. Disagree? Come at us then!"
Then again, what would I care if other characters think reputation is based on how much you put on the line or how shiny the fleets are? To me that's a very nullsec sov attitude to things, and I've shot enough F1 key null guys in small gang/frig fights in low sec to not take that view myself - because I care more about having a fight if I can and not trying to impress people with how many POS modules show up on my killboard or whatever.
I guess I'd just say taking a different point of view when it comes to "RP" conflict especially with regards to winning and losing IC might open up more things for you and yours?
You have to also remember a lot of eve RP when you keep it all IC is more of a poker game of betting bluffs, and risking things. In this case putting up your poco as an IC plot element and telling your RP enemies to 'come at me bro' could be looked upon as confident and aggressive and you might not even get shot at. Or maybe you get some fun IC set pieces with poco infiltration and corporate espionage, who knows. Or maybe you say to 'x' RP opponant 'if you can take this facility out in the next 48 hours you get a blank RP check as far as doing fun stuff inside the facility and murderfacing lots of our corporate baseliner employees and stealing things, etc), if we hold out for 48 hours we kill all your spais.
Who knows, I'm just saying it's not always a black/white win/loss dynamic when it comes to RP conflict.
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Once Silas dueled me but Aldrith apologized :ugh:
That was a good bit of fun, that whole thing. I know you were ready to rock, too :P
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I guess I'd just say taking a different point of view when it comes to "RP" conflict especially with regards to winning and losing IC might open up more things for you and yours?
You have to also remember a lot of eve RP when you keep it all IC is more of a poker game of betting bluffs, and risking things. In this case putting up your poco as an IC plot element and telling your RP enemies to 'come at me bro' could be looked upon as confident and aggressive and you might not even get shot at. Or maybe you get some fun IC set pieces with poco infiltration and corporate espionage, who knows. Or maybe you say to 'x' RP opponant 'if you can take this facility out in the next 48 hours you get a blank RP check as far as doing fun stuff inside the facility and murderfacing lots of our corporate baseliner employees and stealing things, etc), if we hold out for 48 hours we kill all your spais.
Who knows, I'm just saying it's not always a black/white win/loss dynamic when it comes to RP conflict.
I'd say we do have different perspectives then. It's still IC on my end whether it's another RP group or random pirates that shoot at the hypothetical PoCo. It's still IC on my end if I'm shooting at things in lowsec or another RP'er. If you mean having gentlemen's agreements with other RP'ers to promote telling a good story and have some interaction then that's always going to be highly conditional and dependent on the people involved.
If the people involved are the dramatic sort who feel the need to "win rp" for self-aggrandizement then I'm not going to go out of my way to satisfy their delusions of grandeur.
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So maybe a different approach, what are you putting out there that invites other RPers to pew pew with you and risk things that are valuable to them? I mean this only if it is a goal of yours for RPers to engage with your organization in space
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My balls.
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Again, it's not the ship types per se or assets lost or risked necessarily, I'm asking about the IC attitude that 'nothing I use in combat has any value to me so anything I lose is completely inconsequential' RP point of view.
That's what I'm referring to as not making it inviting for other people to want to engage with that on some levels?
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If you go out with expendable assets then they're expendable?
I understand your points about creating content by offering opportunities for people to come at you, but these should be opportunities that are realistic, on both sides. If I RP consequently I will have my character make smart decisions and smart moves, which includes stacking the deck against the opponent, not taking odds that are impossible to win and generally not doing stupid crap.
As far as that goes, I've understood Veik as seeing everything that happens in-game as IC. Not just things that include or impact another RPing entity.
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Again, it's not the ship types per se or assets lost or risked necessarily, I'm asking about the IC attitude that 'nothing I use in combat has any value to me so anything I lose is completely inconsequential' RP point of view.
That's what I'm referring to as not making it inviting for other people to want to engage with that on some levels?
There's little difference to me whether or not I'm shooting at or getting shot by someone who identifies as a roleplayer or not. That, and Veikitamo as a character specifically is a deeply cynical and jaded capsuleer who does not in fact care how many people have to die to achieve her agendas and who is rich enough to always have fresh assets to kill things with.
I don't know, it's like saying, "What invites people to fight vikings if they don't care they die because they're going to Valhalla anyway"?
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if someone throws sub-900k sp characters in rookieships at you, then, it costs them nothing, and unless you're using t1 laser crystals, it costs you something, in addition to time.
If they then boast about how they are "winning the isk war", because of it, then... you're not wanting to play that game, eh?
Why would you engage them, when at best, you would get "you destroyed a bunch of rookieships, umm, gratz?" type comments ?
Like, trying to deal with an ant problem, without any ability to affect the ant colony or the ant queen. Why even bother ?
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Hypothetically everything is meaningless. Why are we even doing this? Let's all go out to the pub and try to score, man.
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Again, it's not the ship types per se or assets lost or risked necessarily, I'm asking about the IC attitude that 'nothing I use in combat has any value to me so anything I lose is completely inconsequential' RP point of view.
That's what I'm referring to as not making it inviting for other people to want to engage with that on some levels?
There's little difference to me whether or not I'm shooting at or getting shot by someone who identifies as a roleplayer or not. That, and Veikitamo as a character specifically is a deeply cynical and jaded capsuleer who does not in fact care how many people have to die to achieve her agendas and who is rich enough to always have fresh assets to kill things with.
I don't know, it's like saying, "What invites people to fight vikings if they don't care they die because they're going to Valhalla anyway"?
Right, I should split two responses,
You are right regarding shooting RPers and non RPers in the sense that it's all IC, you are correct. I had just meant that sometimes we as RPers can get fun mileage out of peaking behind the curtain a bit and occasionally setting some 'gameplay goals' for IC conflicts.
Veikitamo as a character specifically is a deeply cynical and jaded capsuleer who does not in fact care how many people have to die to achieve her agendas and who is rich enough to always have fresh assets to kill things with.
I'd have to disagree with you here based on my earlier comments, in that if Veik is a jaded super rich capsuleer who doesn't care how many people die, she's not going to be just throwing frigates at people, does that make sense?
This is in no way a 'your doing it wrong' I'm enjoying having a discussion about motivations and how we represent this to other people.
So from my POV IC at least, I might think all sorts of things about Veik (whom I do like as a character), but maybe I don't see the 'not caring about death and resources' attitude being reflected in space regarding what is being used and what is being risked?
Compared to someone like Ava Starfire who cares very much about her crew and her baseliners, who is loud and proud about her IC usage of t2 frigates and being sort of an 'ace' frigate pilot sort of combatant more along the lines of the red baron so to speak. So I look at Ava's combat record and it's a million frigates, and combat and kills revolving around that.
I'm not trying to pick on you in particular V, it's just an interesting topic for me
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What are you trying to say? I have a hard time understanding it, because does 'not caring about death and ressources' only coincide with a certain price tag or size (#of own lives lost)? - A remarkably pratchettarian way to measure military success! ;)
Because from my vantage point taking expendable assets out to get blown to bits, only to return and hop into the next one is exactly this: Using them as means to an end.
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I'd have to disagree with you here based on my earlier comments, in that if Veik is a jaded super rich capsuleer who doesn't care how many people die, she's not going to be just throwing frigates at people, does that make sense?
This is in no way a 'your doing it wrong' I'm enjoying having a discussion about motivations and how we represent this to other people.
So from my POV IC at least, I might think all sorts of things about Veik (whom I do like as a character), but maybe I don't see the 'not caring about death and resources' attitude being reflected in space regarding what is being used and what is being risked?
Compared to someone like Ava Starfire who cares very much about her crew and her baseliners, who is loud and proud about her IC usage of t2 frigates and being sort of an 'ace' frigate pilot sort of combatant more along the lines of the red baron so to speak. So I look at Ava's combat record and it's a million frigates, and combat and kills revolving around that.
I'm not trying to pick on you in particular V, it's just an interesting topic for me
1. Veik is a 1 year old character whose sp total at present means frigates are the only hulls she's really proficient in, and due to the fact her 20 mil sp is split across all 4 factions she's probably only about 80% capable in any single one compared to a max skilled fit.
2. Veik doesn't care what anyone's think of her. She has her job to do and she'll go out and do it as she feels the need to. She's not in it for the money, the fame, or the glory. She doesn't care if people like or dislike her. She's contracted to do a job, so she'll do the job to the best of her abilities. At present that means conducting operations in frigates first and upshipping/hard countering as possible dependent on a variety of factors, none of which involve caring how impressive she may or may not be to others.
3. Veik's cynicism has deep roots in utilitarian philosophy and is expressed as such. It's all about just HTFU and dealing with the universe as it is, not what you may want it to be. Rolling out with a heavy fleet doctrine in an FW zone accomplishes little when most people are rolling around in frigates and dessies. It also surrenders a lot of the initiative and mobility you get to roam a wide area when in frigates or dessies.
4. Veik's corporation might have at most 5 active pilots active at any one time. Why roll around in BC's unless you want to get tagged and ganked by the multitude of pirate and FDU corps in the area that can bring superior numbers/ships/logis and can rapidly collapse on top of your position?
5. Veik is confident enough in herself and her own abilities that she doesn't need the validation of others to survive in the world.
Above all else though, yes Veik is probably in some respects a villain or antagonist, but she's not going to surrender the initiative in her "Ebil plans" just to make it easy on the good guys.
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Almost forgot, personal pet peeve of mine : people that use "I can't believe that you made me agree with X", where X is an usual mortal enemy, to point out how demented a point might be to make both people agree. It's so trite...
Posting to quote this.
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Above all else though, yes Veik is probably in some respects a villain or antagonist, but she's not going to surrender the initiative in her "Ebil plans" just to make it easy on the good guys.
Looks like a hero to me.
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Looks like a hero to me.
I would say like everything to me, it's always a matter perspective.
Which, probably brings me to another pet peeve of mine relevant to this topic. Which is the constant need it seems at times for some characters and players to seek to imply some sense of arbitrary moral absolutism. That there exists, "Bad guys" and that there are, "Good guys". What will always make the Amarr and Caldari so interesting to me is that while they are societies that are both capable of performing acts that I as a player might find to a degree abhorrent, there is always that fact that since it's unrealistic a human being will see themselves as, "Evil", the fun comes in trying to understand how people in the State or Empire justify or rationalize what I the player might disagree with. Exploring a different set of morals, ethics, beliefs and cultural norms brings a lot of depth and complexity for me.
I've always felt both Fed and Minmatar RP a bit stale for me, because there's a lot more of that moral absolutism in those factions coming from some their participants. That they're the good guys fighting the good fight for Freedom and Democracy, so everyone must be the moustache twirling bad guys who are against Freedom and Democracy because they are evil. When things like the fact the Federation might suffer from, as a President Eisenhower forewarned, of the dangers to democracy in having a powerful military-industrial complex due to a century of conflict with the Caldari State; or the negative aspects of having strong tribal/ethnic identity potentially causing internecine strife in the Republic which has been apparent from the Balkans, to Afghanistan, and in Africa, they seem to be vehemently denied both IC and OOC from characters and players even though they have a strong basis in both the PF and in reality.
I think a willingness to accept the negative aspects of ones own faction is a good thing, in seeking to find and understand them, and in dealing with them as a character and as a player is a good thing to me. In this I think is what the real strengths to factions like the State and Empire, or the outlaw factions are: you have to deal with negative aspects quickly and learn how you can rationalize/justify those negative aspects. It also prevents the pains of wanting to complain in public when it's pointed just how abstract ideals don't often synchronize with practical realities in the fiction of Eve.
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This is specifially why Arista does not shit talk on forums or elsewhere. As a capuleer (and I as a nervous person IRL) will not back it up with lazors, so Ari is guilt as a mild RP toon. So i relfect that in RP.
And this is thus my other beef: RPers who would chest-beat but not back-up his words by force, wits or will (or combination thereof).
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I've never understood why the Minnies and the Feds even see themselves as the good guys. Sure the Matari had the whole slavery thing to overcome but if you think what they're doing now is good then you probably cheered for Ahab the whole way through Moby Dick.
As for the Gallenteans they probably have the closest claim to the position of good guy except that no other faction has so little reason to do the evil that they do. Economically self-sufficient. Highest standard of living. Highest level of personal freedoms. How do they react? Secret State Police abducting and murdering their own citizens. A huge number of traitors in the military and a history of responding to dissent with overwhelming force when it isn't voiced by ethnic Gallente.
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I've never understood why the Minnies and the Feds even see themselves as the good guys.
Sorry to interrupt but it is not true that all the Fed players see their faction as the "good guys", whatever that means. Many interesting stories do arise from the grey shades but because this kind of RP does not really thrive in an environment where the only mode of interaction is multicultural public speaking, not everyone gets exposed to the whole variety and it's easy to get a wrong idea of what is the big picture. Some players of opposing factions also seem to be propagating the "good guys" stereotype for metagaming purposes, which is not helpful at all.
Of course, most of the characters of all factions probably do think they're doing the right thing, unless they have a vested interest in keeping their position, but how else could it be?
The reasons why some players actually might see Feds as the "good guys" could be related to the close similarity between the declaration of human rights, the ideals of the constitution, etc and their real life equivalents, but it's not like there aren't any cynical interpretations.
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You're right. I shouldn't have suggested that all minnie and feddy players are monolithic entities.
Please consider my statement to read 'all minnie and feddy players who DO consider their factions to be the good guys...'
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It becomes even more disturbing when I see some Caldari or Amarr fanboys starting to think that their faction is somehow a good model of society and ideals, to the point of denying every shade of grey and resorting to the same propaganda people usually use ICly.
Yeah, fortunately, a lot less of those, but I have seen some. It's disturbing.
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I'm the type that does enjoy portraying the downsides of the Fed in particular because it gives meaning to playing a "good guy". Admittedly, it's a bit difficult to do that at this current point in time when my RP is currently focused on an ISK-soaked Dubai project. It's even harder that these guys are meticulous about being moral and upstanding. I may explore in the future individuals who joined the project who are motivated by self interest. Even the white knight charity organizations irl that appear flawless will have these.
As for the Federation's general flaws, I think they're intended to be a little less obvious or outward than the other factions. Economic neoliberalism, negligence via buckpassing, pushing of absolutism in a relativistic society...it's just that this is a bit difficult to portray to the lowest common denominator. The common "secret police in a democracy" is much more simpler to consume, even if it isn't logical.
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None of the main factions are good. All have their flaws and all have their own reasons for overlooking them. Sometimes playing a character who denies these flaws can be interesting. I prefer someone who knows they are there but works with the polity they are part of to make the best of it's potential.
I believe some of the minority groups (EoM, Sansha, Blood Raiders) are a lot more bad than good (even if you can get nice Blooder grandmothers). But these groups tend to show themselves as the worst aspects of the groups that they split off from.
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For humans being atrociously good at adaption I think any of New Eden's models are realistic and would work. After all we're collectively in for a dystopic future, unless we can overcome fickle things like free will and egoism. (Hello Sansha). To play devil's advocate, Lyn, I think that all the (empire, for the sake of simplicity) systems in New Eden are good models of society, because none of them are highly dysfunctional or objectively evil to their own subjects, nor to humankind in its entirety. Today's advanced societies enjoy their warring as much as them, as the exploitations of weaker nations. We're not just very good at adaption, we're also pretty good at self-defeception, after all. ;)
But for the sake of this discussion I think I know what you mean, and I would tend to agree. People who do not see both sides of the(ir) factions OOCly are very tedious to deal with.
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Please consider my statement to read 'all minnie and feddy players who DO consider their factions to be the good guys...'
Thanks for the clarification. At some point, the Caldari were seen as the "good guys" - patriotic, frugal, loyal and honourable, having suffered a lot, protecting their way of life, and the Feds were seen as corrupted, arrogant, double-speaking oppressors, to put it nicely.
I feel that a Federation loyalist who plays the core might need to make somewhat finer divisions between the views of the player and the character, than say, an avid supporter of monopolies or slavery, and this could in principle lead to an abundance of characters whose IC views would be acceptable for the majority in the today's society. I'm not sure if this is the case, and not trying to imply there's something wrong with it.
Could be that it's not even possible to play the dark side of the Federation without having some ideas on the shortcomings of democracy, market economy, politics and other things which have close parallels in real life.
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I'll speak mostly from my experience here, on what I have had the occasion to witness for the 4 factions over the years.
- The Amarr have always suffered from the villain trope, thanks mostly to the slavery aspect, which literally detonates when coupled with religion. I am not sure they have been ever once portrayed as the good guys in the minds of players. Even maybe in some chronicles where they were truly compared in a good light with the Federation (like in 2 Deaths). Not to help them further, they have often looked like utter fools on the intergalactic scene, but they are far from being alone in that. But incidentally enough the Amarr had enough of charisma to still appeal to strong core groups of RPers, that eventually vanished the last years. It was a slow and painful decline.
- The Caldari, when I started and up until Heth, have always seemed obviously good and the favorite of many people, including maybe CCP, to my eyes. It was not a hazard that 40% of players were Caldari, even with the Achura and their insane attribute distribution. They sure were portrayed their flaws, but eventually they suffered from the same syndrome than the Minmatar, which is the victim syndrome where for the reason evoked by Etienne, they were often considered not as perfectly good guys, but an ideal worthy of respect and adoration for most. They always looked strong, meritocratic, militarist, and well, everything that made all of us geeks wet inside. Then TEA happened, harming the faction in a bad way, and meritocracy was the only thing that players were able to clench onto by default because everything else was collapsing around them. And eventually the recent events were they were kicked in Luminaire, which is one of the first time I witness a major defeat in Caldari history tbh. In any case, they sure have suffered from the wrong reasons, and have lost a lot of their immaculate status.
- The Minmatar have always been the favored race to be considered the good guys in my experience, until recently. The madmax/rebel look, freedom loving dudes flying in rusty ships with style, fighting against oppressors and tyranny, had a lot of success in all those years for RPers. But the few past years, they have lost a lot of their appeal to RPers it seems. Not sure why, until Colelie, which was a major blow.
- The Gallente have always suffered of a mixed portrayal. The fact that they have never really witnessed a strong core group of loyalists (the curse of federal diversity) put aside, they have always represented 2 antagonist things closely related to our modern world : the western ideals, naturally held by most of us players as our christian/western legacy, like liberty, democracy, etc, which could have probably have been even stronger than the minmatar appeal to a lot of players initially, but also all the flaws of our current society, and especially now with the economic crisis, were we are confronted to corruption, and all the cons we tend to despise IRL, now. And the latter easily get projected on the Gallente Federation (with good reasons), but eventually become personal pets peeve for a lot of players that for the same reason than the Amarr on who players can unleash their hatred of religion/slavery, they can be spitted on for the things we hate IRL, were they suddenly become twisted corrupted bloated entities. Also, the Gallente have also suffered from an interest part of the PF, where they up until the battle of CP, were literally apathetic vegetables, suffering and taking hits and never doing anything against that. That, alone, I think hurt the faction a lot more than the rest since its very loyalists started to get "meh" about the loss of charisma projected by their faction over the years (like for the Amarr).
For humans being atrociously good at adaption I think any of New Eden's models are realistic and would work. After all we're collectively in for a dystopic future, unless we can overcome fickle things like free will and egoism. (Hello Sansha). To play devil's advocate, Lyn, I think that all the (empire, for the sake of simplicity) systems in New Eden are good models of society, because none of them are highly dysfunctional or objectively evil to their own subjects, nor to humankind in its entirety. Today's advanced societies enjoy their warring as much as them, as the exploitations of weaker nations. We're not just very good at adaption, we're also pretty good at self-defeception, after all. ;)
But for the sake of this discussion I think I know what you mean, and I would tend to agree. People who do not see both sides of the(ir) factions OOCly are very tedious to deal with.
Of course they can be good/valid models of society.
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CCP bias! Ask a Caldari and they're favoring Feds, ask a fed and they're favoring the Caldari...
This is absolutely /yawn and I should suggest some tinfoil. Every faction has their players that amp up the good aspects to 11 and brush everything bad under the rug. I mean, I've wondered myself how the sentence "Corporate Dictatorship" would coincide with "liberalism" that some have brought up in discussion - but I think this is hardly the fault of CCP and more a very liberal interpretation based on the user's side?
"My side has to be good."
"My side has to be flawless."
"My side has to win."
I mean, just look at some character concepts out there and you might find these very tendencies repeated on a personal level.
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Well the Caldari State has always had deep and apparent flaws to me, but for those that have never wanted to engage with, or recognize those flaws then I would say CCP was kind enough to provide Ishukone as a sort of release valve for players and characters to use who did not want to be a part of those flaws.
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It becomes even more disturbing when I see some Caldari or Amarr fanboys starting to think that their faction is somehow a good model of society and ideals, to the point of denying every shade of grey and resorting to the same propaganda people usually use ICly.
Yeah, fortunately, a lot less of those, but I have seen some. It's disturbing.
While I probably wouldn't have chosen Amarr (or Khanid technically) when starting out if I'd known that I'd be joining the RP scene, it's been fascinating setting aside some headspace to a character that can comfortably justify everything that goes on in the Kingdom. It's also thoroughly pointed out the flaws in the Federation and the Republic, because part of me now always sees them as Reppy does. In fact, I sometimes have to take a step back to consider things objectively, because otherwise I actually start thinking of the Republic as a menace, and that was before Colelie and that clusterfuck started. So I can see how people might hit that point, although as you say, it is a tad disturbing.
It helps that there's a running joke that I'm a closet fascist, of course.
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I admit that I enjoy being Amarr. They can have interesting paradoxes in thought that make them terribly frustrating to deal with, and even roleplayed as the sweetest, kindest thing in existence, the sweetest kindest Amarr can come off in a chilling, 'evil' way, leaving people not sure what to think. I think it adds to their depth.
Reminds me of a book series I read years ago. It's written with the protagonists as the 'evil' people and the 'good guys' being the enemy. By the end you're cheering for the cursed evil knight and wanting to twist the innocent elf princess' head off because with third person omnipotence you see the reason behind why the 'evil' people do what they are doing - they're struggling to exist, constantly under siege by 'the good guys' who refuse to listen or understand -- with internal knowledge, you find yourself empathizing with the bad guys, who aren't "bad" in a truly objective sense, but simply on the ebon armor stormcloud side of the battlefield as opposed to the silver blue skied one.
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Im seriously debating rolling an Amarr character and fly with PIE (if they would have me) if/when I have time to come back to the game.
Pro-slavery (he would call it "pro-scripture" or "Pro Truth" or something) of course.
He would also secretly covet Aldy's hair.
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Now now. Slavery is bad. Reclaiming, however, is a necessary act for the redemption of souls. ;)
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Reminds me of a book series I read years ago. It's written with the protagonists as the 'evil' people and the 'good guys' being the enemy. By the end you're cheering for the cursed evil knight and wanting to twist the innocent elf princess' head off because with third person omnipotence you see the reason behind why the 'evil' people do what they are doing - they're struggling to exist, constantly under siege by 'the good guys' who refuse to listen or understand -- with internal knowledge, you find yourself empathizing with the bad guys, who aren't "bad" in a truly objective sense, but simply on the ebon armor stormcloud side of the battlefield as opposed to the silver blue skied one.
Colour me intrigued. What was it called?
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- Ishukone. Always with the fucking Ishukone.
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They are... unique for Caldari. Peoples like to be unique ;)
Besides, they are not so extreme and quite mild as Caldari. From my point of view, Ishukone mentality is much closer to ours and it makes playing them way easier than other types of Caldari.
I can't say I dislike this, but for me it is more attractive in Caldari what makes us different, and not what makes us the same.
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They are... unique for Caldari. Peoples like to be unique ;)
Besides, they are not so extreme and quite mild as Caldari. From my point of view, Ishukone mentality is much closer to ours and it makes playing them way easier than other types of Caldari.
I can't say I dislike this, but for me it is more attractive in Caldari what makes us different, and not what makes us the same.
I almost shed a tear :eek:
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(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-92wWErJMPwA/T_rxqG78UJI/AAAAAAAADlw/QCR5ZZvXxwY/s640/hater+cat.jpg)
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Silas said something that upset Makkal Hanaya once; she immediately jumped in a combat ship, set the autopilot the 50 jumps or whatever, and headed straight over to have it out. The result wasn't important, the act of -doing something- gave her more IC and OOC credit in that 30 minutes than some people ever earn in years of forum warfare.
It pleases me that you remember this. I considered that an important moment for Makkal even if she got her butt kicked back to null-sec. I recall you were nice enough to even wait around while I drove there and tell me what system you were in. :)
That's actually something I tend to loathe. You are only considered in a positive way if you have "balls". When I OOCly and ICly consider that actually having "balls" is just behaving like an animal, that my character will actually tell you every time that "winning a stupid space fight has nothing to do with you being right or wrong", then that mentality starts to seriously get annoying at a personal level.
I perfectly understand that this has become de facto the general capsuleer ideal, but sometimes I would really like to see capsuleers thinking otherwise and detaching themselves from the testosterone mentality.
Yes, that’s Makkal. All about the testosterone and showing people her balls.
Grrrrrrr!
Because honestly, you can jump in and show 'balls' all you want, but at the end of the day it only really matters whether you won or lost the fight.
At the end of the day, winning or losing a fight is only as important as you want it to be.
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(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-92wWErJMPwA/T_rxqG78UJI/AAAAAAAADlw/QCR5ZZvXxwY/s640/hater+cat.jpg)
(Caldari) Staters gone State.
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Having now read through the rest of the thread, I can answer the question.
What I love, what I value in another character, is that they are dynamic and rich. Whether they be an abused slave or a heartless corporate raider or idealistic freedom fighter, when I interact with them, I should forget that there's someone playing them but believe for a moment that I'm chatting with another person.
I don't think concepts matter. A wonderful concept can be ruined by a flat or boring portrayal while the most unoriginal cliche can come to life with the right person at the rudder.
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Having now read through the rest of the thread, I can answer the question.
What I love, what I value in another character, is that they are dynamic and rich. Whether they be an abused slave or a heartless corporate raider or idealistic freedom fighter, when I interact with them, I should forget that there's someone playing them but believe for a moment that I'm chatting with another person.
I don't think concepts matter. A wonderful concept can be ruined by a flat or boring portrayal while the most unoriginal cliche can come to life with the right person at the rudder.
At the end of the day, we all have preferences and pet peeves and such like but when it really comes down to it... this.
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Very much so, yes. Interesting concepts and plots are nice things to have, but in the end, execution is what makes or breaks things. At its core, Romeo and Juliet is just a story about horny teenagers, and Hamlet could just as easily have been set among an Appalachian meth cooker crime family as it could have among the royal family at Elsinore.*
To me, it's far more important for a character to have a distinct voice than it is for her to have an interesting or unique story. Tropes only irritate when they're a substitute for personality.
(*: mumble mumble story idea mumble where's my notebook.)