Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Sunfang on 11 Aug 2014, 02:52
-
This thread is for the general discussion of Empyreans as a faction in New Eden
One of the things that got me interested in this game was the divide between capsuleers and other NPC factions. With CCP seemingly moving towards an Empires vs capsuleers mindset, I would like to hear what you think an Empyrean Empire would consist of and how it would operate and interact within Eve.
-
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Goonswarm_(Player_alliance)
-
I tend to view corps/alliances/coalitions as sub factions within the greater capsuleer collective
-
Well I guess as it seems to be the new axis intended by CCP, it might be good for new players willing to RP to follow it, or to include it into their RP.
I also guess it can bring interesting drama for older character that were meant to be intimately entrenched into the NPC universe (of which the lore consists at 99% and where all the interesting stuff happens) and that will soon see themselves on the "wrong side", or betrayed by their empires, or whatever.
But ultimately I wouldn't want to live there myself, since it would mean the death of the character. It's a dead end.
-
One of the things that irks me about the "Empyrean empire" dynamic is it seems to presume the Big 4 and CONCORD won't lift a finger to actually restrict our actions. Their current actions make me think of an immigration authority who issue very strongly-worded demands that people not break the law, but refuse to actually exercise any authority to regulate who and what crosses the border.
Onto other matters regarding a capsuleer faction: One of the biggest questions we have so far is how large a population resides on nullsec planets. We know certain regions (Stain, Curse, etc) have planetside populations related to NPC factions, but it's unclear how much they interact with capsuleers besides dealing with our PI installations when we drop them. In other nullsec regions, our only evidence is that some planets have lights on them - and considering that's a generic planet skin, I hesitate to declare it solid canon evidence of anything.
-
I don't think that CONCORD has the ability to project power in any meaningful way outside of Empire space. It's been discussed in the Eve Fiction forum that CONCORD is actually incredibly understaffed and underequipped but has been able to maintain the illusion of omnipotence and omnipresence by means of rapid deployment (thanks to Jovian technology) whenever an offense is committed in highsec. If it is true that there are actually relatively few CONCORD vessels then a deployment to bring nullsec alliances into line would be at best inadvisable if not wholly impossible. Likewise, the empire factions might be too focused on maintaining the tenuous peace among themselves to risk starting a front against Capsuleers only to open themselves up to an attack from one of the other empires.
-
Switch of PLEXes, capsules and cloning facilities and you are done. No more capsuleers.
-
Switch of PLEXes, capsules and cloning facilities and you are done. No more capsuleers.
^^^
The PF does not currently account for any true capsuleer autonomy outside of 90% of them being murdered semi-instantly by CONCORD/Empires. The pirate faction capsuleers might survive a bit longer
PF can always change though :P
-
I would love to see "Empyreans" as a proper faction.....
in fact one could set Empyrean vs NPC standings so interestings mechanics/storyline could be created out of such interaction.
-
Switch of PLEXes, capsules and cloning facilities and you are done. No more capsuleers.
CONCORD shutdowns Capsuleer infrastructure. Empires start new faction Capsuleer infrastructure to gain advantage/balance against other empires. Capsuleers endure and now CONCORD has lost even its loose control of their activities.
CONCORD can regulate Empyreans a little or not at all. They chose a little.
-
Empires already have faction capsuleers.
But your point is interesting.
-
PF wise, Titans and Rorquals have cloning facilities. And even if CONCORD/empires could find a way to kill us all, would they be that stupid? Capsuleers are the only thing standing between them and Sansha's Nation.
-
Empires already have faction capsuleers.
But your point is interesting.
I mean that they would run Capsuleer infrastructure independent of CONCORD. Now, one way it could go and make you effectively right would be that the empires would limit all activity to only their navy Capsuleers. I wonder if freelance Capsuleers are of sufficient benefit to each Empire that they would keep them around even knowing that independent Capsuleers have a tendency to pursue their own interests even if it is detrimental to the faction with which they might otherwise be affiliated.
-
CONCORD just "turning off" all capsuleers would not be the most productive response at all, as it would drive capsuleers towards working with the pirate factions.
A far more realistic response would be to play the capsuleers against each other - to use some names from CCP's trailers, CONCORD would go something like "hey, Blackhawk alliance, you really don't like those Drekar alliance guys, right? Well, they did something we really don't like; for the next 72 hours they aren't going to be able to target anything. Here's the locations of twenty of their titan pilots and the passwords to the starbases they are parked in. Have fun!"
Assuming CONCORD did opt to engage in a direct confrontation with, I think people tend to underestimate how much control CONCORD and the Big 4 empires have over what the average capsuleer can do. They are capable of limiting what our sensors see, when and what we can target, even when and where we can jump. If CONCORD wants to lock you down as a capsuleer, they are entirely capable of doing so.
-
A far more realistic response would be to play the capsuleers against each other - to use some names from CCP's trailers, CONCORD would go something like "hey, Blackhawk alliance, you really don't like those Drekar alliance guys, right? Well, they did something we really don't like; for the next 72 hours they aren't going to be able to target anything. Here's the locations of twenty of their titan pilots and the passwords to the starbases they are parked in. Have fun!"
Lol. The rage coming from not only the affected alliance, but also the entire player base if CCP blatantly cheated like that would dwarf th t20 scandal :lol:
Assuming CONCORD did opt to engage in a direct confrontation with, I think people tend to underestimate how much control CONCORD and the Big 4 empires have over what the average capsuleer can do. They are capable of limiting what our sensors see, when and what we can target, even when and where we can jump. If CONCORD wants to lock you down as a capsuleer, they are entirely capable of doing so.
Capsuleers are just as capable of locking down ships using electronic warfare as well
-
PF wise, Titans and Rorquals have cloning facilities. And even if CONCORD/empires could find a way to kill us all, would they be that stupid? Capsuleers are the only thing standing between them and Sansha's Nation.
Why do capsuleer use PLEX and pay their licences if capsuleers have the means to emancipate themselves just like that ? But that's probably one of those many cases where ingame gameplay forced into shaky IC explanations by CCP doesn't match quite well with PF logic itself.
For Sansha Nation, I forgot that one. That's another good point.
-
Lol. The rage coming from not only the affected alliance, but also the entire player base if CCP blatantly cheated like that would dwarf th t20 scandal :lol:
Oh yeah, none of this would work in the context of EVE being a game which people pay to take part in. I've been talking in a pure in-universe context.
But then, I think that gets to the core of my point: I think it's bad design if your storyline "choices" are forcing the only logical action for the NPCs to be something which can never be done.
Capsuleers are just as capable of locking down ships using electronic warfare as well
I wasn't talking about electronic warfare here - I was talking about CONCORD going in and disabling systems or abilities in the capsuleer neocom and vessel by remote control. They don't need to hack their way in, because they've already got back doors (or, more accurately, a 2nd front door) written into everything.
-
I think it's bad design if your storyline "choices" are forcing the only logical action for the NPCs to be something which can never be done.
Point taken. I honestly think that a diplomatic approach would be a more appropriate way to deal with the empires rather than all out conflict. After all capsuleers came about to help the empires expand, yet in our success we outshine them in many ways. We protect them from outside threats, we fight their wars for them, we stimulate their economies with resources and tax and our influence reaches into far out parts of the galaxy to dangerous for non-capsuleers to go. Such is their dependence on us that they can effectively be seen as sub factions of an Empyrean Empire and a well placed diplomatic threat should remind them of that.
As for CONCORD and their illuminati aspirations, You make a good point considering BPO's are not created by players. I tend to think that the process of research and invention would be able to spot these "2nd front doors" and remove them. Lore wise, I also recall reading something about the way gates operate and communicate with each other having something to do with local chat and, my guess is, the neocom and it's ability to be maintained over vast intergalactic distances. Once capsuleer's are able to create their own stargates, we should have a nice lore friendly way to explain away CONCORDS control of the neocom.
An lets not forget The battle of Mekhios (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Battle_of_Mekhios) showing that CONCORD isn't immune from being shut down.
-
Mekhios was done by an NPC navy, which are not bound by the restrictions that we capsuleers are.
The source about CONCORD maintaining backdoors in all capsuleer equipment and being able to shut us down entirely at will is an extended conversation with a fiction dev a while back, although some of it can be seen reflected other established PF (for instance, CONCORD shutting off the drone region to only vessels they want to get through).
Agree with what you say about diplomacy, though. Unfortunately, that would require a degree of subtlety I'm not sure CCP has anymore.
-
How much emergent game play do you think it would take to make up for CCP's lack of subtlety?
-
How much emergent game play do you think it would take to make up for CCP's lack of subtlety?
I've not answered this immediately, because I wanted to think it over a bit and not give a snap answer.
The tl;dr answer: "To much."
Long version:
In order for players to make up for CCP's lack of subtlety, they would need to do some things that the playerbase right now is not inclined one bit towards even considering. They would need to choose to act as though they are existing in a fictional world, rather than a game. This doesn't mean all of nullsec needs to go out and make up backstories and have super-strict IC/OOC separation, but rather that they should recognize the existence of NPCs as something more than things you kill for bounties and mission rewards.
Perhaps the core of what I am trying to say is this: They would need to recognize the existence of fictional consequences for their actions, both good and bad, even if there are none in game mechanics. While CCP has been pushing the "do whatever you want to do, no restrictions" line for a while now, this is not realistically how the Big4/CONCORD would handle a force like capsuleers; it's a great line for a pure sandbox, but not for an RPG - even an MMORPG. As a result of this, CCP has been loath for years to apply any real penalties to player actions; during the Incursion events, the penalties applied to some pro-Sansha loyalist players were actually reversed against the wishes of said players.
In order to make up for CCP's utter lack of subtlety, the players would have to recognize consequences where there are none. That's not going to happen, though, because EVE has (quite rightfully) fomented a "win at all costs" mindset. If doing something has no immediate, tangible benefit the playerbase cannot be relied on to do it. Without some very real penalties, why should you hold back from certain actions? Without some very real benefits, why accept the cost of limiting yourself?
To put that in more setting-relevant terms: Without CONCORD actually cracking down on those who openly flaunt the rules, why bother treating them as an equal power? Without the Big4 rewarding those who stay loyal to them, why not run off to join the far-more-successful rulebreakers?
-
during the Incursion events, the penalties applied to some pro-Sansha loyalist players were actually reversed against the wishes of said players.
The rage from Koro when his standings got fixed could be felt from hundreds of miles away. No joke.
-
Yah, that was probably the moment where the last of my hope in CCP finally doused. Or the beginning of the end anyway.
-
Interesting argument
I guess it's more of a player lore vs Eve lore scenario then. Seeing as how NPC's are just a game mechanic, it would be players who partake in debate / gunboat diplomacy on the legitimacy of the subject.
-
The fundamental problem with the Empyrean concept is that it relies too much on players. Despite all of the problems with CCP over the years, they have motivation to actually do something (regardless of how well, how often, or how responsibly) because this is a business. Players just do not have the motivation, coordination, or in many cases the ability to contribute long term meaningful content that they have to generate and instigate themselves. Something as comprehensive and extensive as an Empyrean faction would require far more dedicated players than actually exist.