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Author Topic: The OOC/IC Divide, Corporate Security, and the Spy Metagame  (Read 7908 times)

Lyn Farel

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So I assume you are also of the opinion that "/me beheads Aldrith" is the way to go, and no the other choice.

Emotes have never killed anybody within the game.

Emotes are emotes, they only hold value that you give them.

I would not compare them to a game mechanic like locking someone and firing your guns, or someone emptying your corp hangars.

The same way you choose to put a certain value on your stuff no ? It's all relative and subjective.
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Havohej

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[admin]Tread lightly.  Keep it constructive.  This discussion almost never goes anywhere good, but I'm hoping against hope that maybe, just maybe, this time can be a little bit different.[/admin]
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This is a forum on steroids tbh. The rate at which content worth reading is being generated could get you pregnant.

Nicoletta Mithra

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No, he can't.  if he undocks, I can kill him.  I can lose sec and take gate guns in low, or get CONCORDed, but if you are undocked, you ARE risking PvP.  Similarly, if you share a corp with other people, you are consenting to the fact that you may get stolen from.
Well, IRL if you live, you can be killed, if you possess something, your possessions can be stolen. By your reasoning, someone who has possessions is thus consenting to 'the fact that he may get stolen from' and as well to 'the fact that he may get killed'.

I don't think it works that way: One rarely does consent to facts. Facts are accepted. Acceptance and consent are two pairs of shoes, though. Furthermore that you accept the possibility that someone might steal from you doesn't imply in any way that you have to or do accept that someone steals from you, much less that you give your consent to this.

So, if one is in EVE in a corporation with people, one does accept the fact that one may get stolen from, but one doesn't (usually) consent to it. Usually corporations make clear that they don't want corp thieves in their corps and thus that they don't give consent to corp thievery. And it is exactly for the reason that the game allows for corp thievery that there is an implied out of game 'contract' in the corp that this including that those joining the corp don't do thievery. Because there are no instances which would be able to enforce this 'contract' it is based on trust, that is OOG trust, mostly.

I think that is true for most corporations. I also think that most corp thieves are aware of this and use this to their advantage in one way or another, simply because OOG interaction strikes closer to the players emotions and thus will be building trust much faster. Purely IG or IC interaction is more abstract and thus tends to need more time to build the trust levels required to get access to the juicy bits one wants to steal.

I don't think that corporations in EVE work on this implied 'contract' of cooperation because they intend to use it as a 'shield' against corp thievery, for the reason alone that a 'contract' merely founded on trust is the worst security measure one can possibly have. Rather it is a choice in building your game environment. Exactly because EVE is a sand box which allows for a wide range of activities, players choose certain elements of said sand box which will make up their game. Managing a corporation usually involves enough elements that they don't want to worry overly much with corp thievery shenanigans. Also, most people want a friendly and relaxed atmosphere in corp, that isn't dominated by suspicion and distrust.

Therefore most corporations entail a contract that does, on an out of game level, exclude those elements: They accept the possibility of corp theft, but do not consent to it.

If one goes out to steal from a corp one usually is going to commit an action that can't be described as purely in character or in game, but usually it entails out of game elements as well and thus will yield out of game consequences. If one can't accept those out of game consequences, but want to do the thievery thing in game, then one should go steal from a corp that doesn't have such a contract, that decided they want to engage in the spy/counterespionage/thievery/counter-thievery game. I hear the Goons have an entire devision for that.

If one is in there because one enjoys the emotional fallout that oftentimes commences out of game (and isn't even seeing it as 'backhanded compliment if it so happens) and is thus deliberately targeting corporations that have an OOG 'contract' of cooperation, then... well, I'd say people who are like that lack an appreciation for sportsmanship OOG.
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Makkal

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Regarding what is (not) godmodding:

 When you play a game, you agree to abide by a set of established rules. These rules are sometimes one-sided: In DnD, if the someone attacks you while you're asleep, they deliver a coup de grâce. You cannot defend against it. It's automatically a critical hit and if you lose half your health, you die.

There are many of stories of thieves waiting for the rest of the party to fall asleep, slitting everyone's throat, and taking all the goodies.

In a game with permadeath, this sucks badly. I have never had anyone say that it's godmodding though. Godmodding is what happens where there is no established framework for conflict resolution.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2013, 12:12 by Makkal »
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Merdaneth

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OOC considerations trump IC considerations.

If I insult people on this forum (OOC), those people will avoid interaction with my character, even though they have no IC reason to.

If some IC action is going to affect another player badly OOC, then don't expect him to play along IC.

That is why people don't advertise espionage and corp thefts OOC, because they know other players will not go along with it, even if there are no IC reasons to do so.

Because such action are (neccessarily) also OOC, that means that they also inflict hurt on people OOC.

As such, the Spy metagame (and most trust issues) are 95% OOC, and only 5% IC.

Combine this with the existence of alts, the virtual immortality of characters, the inability to identify the player controlling a character and the ability to sell characters, and you have a recipe for OOC trust disasters. If you do feel the need to play a spy or traitor, admit to it OOC, or give up the illusion of the IC/OOC divide. In this case, you can't have your cake and eat it too....

 


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Makkal

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OOC considerations trump IC considerations.

I strongly disagree with this as an absolute statement. OOC will always influence IC to some degree or another and sometimes it's fine to let OOC stuff 'trump' IC stuff, but the majority of the time my RP is dictated by IC considerations and interactions.

If Karmila Strife had access to Silas corp hangers and stole a bunch of stuff, wouldn't anyone consider this a breach of some OOC/OOG contract? Or would people be saying 'that's what happens when you put any sort of trust in a blooder turncoat?'

How many corporations enjoy defining themselves as 'morally dubious?' If you're taking members IC and teaching them to torture, steal, blackmail, and assassinate, I don't give a damn about the 'OOG contract' when it comes to corp thievery.  I see characters making an IC bed and then players complaining when they might have to sleep in it.

Edit: So it's clear, I am not suggesting that PIE does any of these things, and it doesn't seem to be what happened at AP either.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2013, 12:44 by Makkal »
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Pieter Tuulinen

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Regarding what is (not) godmodding:

When you play a game, you agree to abide by a set of established rules. These rules are sometimes one-sided: In DnD, if the someone attacks you while you're asleep, they deliver a coup de grâce. You cannot defend against it. It's automatically a critical hit and if you lose half your health, you die.

There are many of stories of thieves waiting for the rest of the party to fall asleep, slitting everyone's throat, and taking all the goodies.

In a game with permadeath, this sucks badly. I have never had anyone say that it's godmodding though. Godmodding is what happens where there is no established framework for conflict resolution.

Yes, yes. I think we already established that 'Godmodding' was a poor choice of words. I'm interested to see the idea of 'non-consensual RP' however, as I was always taught that there is no such thing. I've always seen IC actions carried out through game-mechanics as inherently being the underlying OOC game with an overlay of IC justification - for example, me using Black Rise as an IC justification for my PvP in the warzone. But that's probably a discussion for another thread.

Metagame, though. You're right if the party is asleep and the guy playing the thief decides to coup-de-grace everyone in their sleep and take all the treasure back to town according to the rules of the game, this is legitimate.

I quite agree that, IC, when the rest of the party roll up their new characters there is NO way that they can possibly know of the thieves actions. Of course, in real life, unless 'blue-on-blue' interactions are an accepted part of the OOC metagame understanding the thief's player will simply never be asked back to another session.

And so it goes with Corp theft.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2013, 12:50 by Pieter Tuulinen »
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Makkal

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Yes, yes. I think we already established that 'Godmodding' was a poor choice of words.

Unless I'm misunderstanding her, Lyn is still suggesting that corp theft may be a form of godmodding.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2013, 13:16 by Makkal »
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Nicoletta Mithra

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OOC considerations trump IC considerations.

I strongly disagree with this as an absolute statement. OOC will always influence IC to some degree or another and sometimes it's fine to let OOC stuff 'trump' IC stuff, but the majority of the time my RP is dictated by IC considerations and interactions.

Why is the majority of your time your RP 'dictated' by IC consideratons and interactions? I'd assume, because you OOCly choose so, not because you as a player aren't able to decide against what IC considerations and interactions 'dictate'.

Behind your IC actions, which are 'dictated' by IC factors stands the consideration that you want to have it this way and not have IC actions 'dictated' by OOC considerations, which in turn though is an OOC 'meta'-consideration. This meta-consideration will always trump all IC considerations, or I hope so, at least.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2013, 17:41 by Nicoletta Mithra »
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Lyn Farel

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Yes, yes. I think we already established that 'Godmodding' was a poor choice of words.

Unless I'm misunderstanding her, Lyn is still suggesting that corp theft may be a form of godmodding.

That was a poor choice of word then. I used it in the sense of non consensual RP.

People frown upon non consensual RP most of the time, except by a few like Mr Smuggles above, and I think that is where the difference in appreciation comes from since I do not consider the slightest metagaming to be part of the OOC game rules at all. It may be encouraged by CCP or not, that's not the point, it's not part of the game rules and mechanisms, it's just what players do between themselves, the same way people can choose to behave in a certain way between themselves out of the RP contracts in an emote contest or whatever.

Unless I get a "theft mail" from a corp heist - which would imply actual theft mechanisms behind - I will never consider a corp heist/breach of security part of game mechanisms (versus part of the game/metagame, which is totally different).
« Last Edit: 06 Jul 2013, 03:45 by Lyn Farel »
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Shiori

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I quite agree that, IC, when the rest of the party roll up their new characters there is NO way that they can possibly know of the thieves actions. Of course, in real life, unless 'blue-on-blue' interactions are an accepted part of the OOC metagame understanding the thief's player will simply never be asked back to another session.

And so it goes with Corp theft.
That much we can agree on! It's just that I'm trying to get across that I don't think that actions should be dismissed as out-of-character just because they have repercussions outside of the "magic circle" of the in-character world. Even if they're negative ones. All actions that are meaningful will have, whether it's a little frisson of delight or howling anger. In many ways, the game is a better one for the possibility of someone being an utter dick to people, IC and OOC.
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Pieter Tuulinen

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Well, how much better the game is because you can be a dick to people OOC is debatable, although I take far too much pleasure from wolfpacking people in their shiny pirate faction frigates to be able to tell you it doesn't. :)

I don't know many people who could get corp-thefted by a player's alt and be happy having the main in their corporation, though.
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hellgremlin

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fuck it.
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Saede Riordan

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Well.

This topic has certainly been enlightening.
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Gaven Lok ri

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When I run a corp I reserve the right to defend the corp from threats that I know about only due to OOC information. I'll respect that divide as long as I can, but the second it moves from "Oh, so and so is a secret heretic" to "so and so plans to start awoxing or corp thieving" then my character heard that the person was dangerous from a little bird. Its an IC action to kick, still. If it has an effect on the game world its IC, but the *Reasons* for the IC kick are going to require a little imagination since the evidence for the kick is OOC.

In a game like this ignoring OOC warning signs that you have a saboteur in corp is just silly.
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