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[lallara zhuul]

If the Khanid, Udorians and the Amarrians shared the same homeworld then why would they not share the same language.

I just think that with things like this you should go back towards before the EVE gate collapsed.

They we're probably co-operating with each other before the collapse, they probably shared the same language when dealing with the authorities on the other side of the EVE gate, they could have even been part of the same expedition. Just set on different continents and losing contact with the collapse.

The old Amarrian language in the Scriptures might actually be the language from Terra.

Which could be proven to be 'divine' because all the civilizations that the Amarrians have come across have had some ancient documents and data in that language.

Language of God.

The Minmatar thing is pretty simple, they why of them not losing their culture.

For some reason Amarrians believed the lies of the Nefantar and believed that they would be the most efficient tool for converting the Minmatar culture into the Amarrian one.

The Nefantar had no other purpose for being slave masters of their kin than to preserve their culture.

Which they did, to an extent.

[Lyn Farel]

There would be only one language from Terra ?

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Exactly my thoughts, Lyn. Probably different ethnic groups hailing from Terra would have had their own languages. There is evidence, I think, that the Khanid people were, probably, of another ethnic group than the Udorian/Assimian (and that includes the Amarrian) people.

Also, the 'Nefantar plot' seems to me, in the version where the sole purpose for them cooperating with the Amarr is to preserve Matari culture, not quite believable an explanation to all the hassle the Amarr had with the Matari. First, the Nefantar apparently were less apt at doing what they aimed at then the Ni-Kunni: The Matari culture was subject to ruthless elimination programs where the Ni-Kunni culture wasn't that much. Second, I don't see all the Nefantar working on this plot. It's even clear by now that apparently the majority rather enjoyed the position they found themselves in.

[lallara zhuul]

There would be one common language from Terra that would be used to deal with the bureaucracy?

There would be one language used within the Terran bureaucracy?

There would be a common language used to communicate between different ethnicities like *gasp* english is nowadays?

[Lyn Farel]

Considering that the first Amarrian ancestors are described to come from old ethnic and religious, integrist settlers that wanted to recreate their own ideal society (the last time I checked PF... May have changed now, who knows), the fact that they used english or any common/universal Earth language is speculative to me. As long as people stay in their own communities and between their kin, there is little reason for them not to speak their own language.

[Mathra Hiede]

Personally I think its going to be more like (using English as an analogy) how Britain/UK speaks English compared to the US/Aus etc

All the same language, but each group uses it differently, has hugely different pronounciations and even spelling.

This makes sense to me for the Khanid, they have been part of the Empire for so so SOOOOOOO long that I highly doubt that managed to not simply merge the languages to a large extent.

[Odelya]

Makkal is thinking of doing a 'practical guide' for non-speakers and I wondered if anyone has tried their hand at one previously. I wouldn't want a situation where two people speaking Khanid were talking in two obviously unrelated languages.

I have! :-) Let’s have a chat and see if we can combine our efforts! I definitely like the idea of a "practical guide".

I disagree that the language got lost/fused completely. Look at Iran. When the Arabs conquered Iran 1400 years ago, Iranians adopted Islam, but at the same time Iranian culture also influenced Islam. As for the Persian language: It has adopted a lot of Persian loanwords, really a lot. The same is true for the Turkish tribes (and to a lesser extend) Mongol tribes that infiltrated (or conquered in the case of the Mongols) large parts of the Islamic world from the 11th century. In my version of the Khanid language the Amarrian alphabet was adopted—like with Persian and Turkish (until 1920-something).

In my "grammar" it is written: Prior to the Reclaiming and the assimilation of the Khanid people into the Empire the alphabet most common was the Khanid Script, which is now referred to as “Old Khanid Script”.

It would definitely be a language ‘rediscovered’ by the nobility of the Kingdom.

I wouldn’t think so, because the nobility of the Kingdom should mostly consist of true Amarr.

Also, we don't really know whether the term 'Khanid' is originally from the Khanid or the Amarrian language, just that the Amarr christened the - back then still ethnically Khanid - ruling family of the ethnic Khanid thusly. I'd suspect it to be an Amarrian flection of an originally Khanid root "Khan".

Doesn't it say in PF that Khanid means “little lord” in Amarr/ish or at least that the Khanid were called like this by the Amarrians? خان/Khan has a somewhat similar meaning in Mongol, Turkish, Persian etc: Lord, ruler etc.

I've attached what I've done so far.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Mathra Hiede]

I disagree that the language got lost/fused completely. Look at Iran. When the Arabs conquered Iran 1400 years ago, Iranians adopted Islam, but at the same time Iranian culture also influenced Islam. As for the Persian language: It has adopted a lot of Persian loanwords, really a lot. The same is true for the Turkish tribes (and to a lesser extend) Mongol tribes that infiltrated (or conquered in the case of the Mongols) large parts of the Islamic world from the 11th century. In my version of the Khanid language the Amarrian alphabet was adopted—like with Persian and Turkish (until 1920-something).

AD 20544
The Amarrians conquer the last state on Athra. They now control the whole planet

AD 23236 (YC 0)
Eden Standard Time (EST) is agreed upon by world leaders at the historic Yoiul Conference. A period of accelerated space colonization by independent parties begins

So, thats a total of.... give or take, about 3 thousand years in the Amarr Empire in a culture of dominance - while I conceive its possible the Khanid have and maintain some form of language its hard for me to think it would be anything but a bastardised version of Amarrish, just seems a stretch knowing what the Amarr are like when it comes to conquered/merged civilisations

[Odelya]

I disagree that the language got lost/fused completely. Look at Iran. When the Arabs conquered Iran 1400 years ago, Iranians adopted Islam, but at the same time Iranian culture also influenced Islam. As for the Persian language: It has adopted a lot of Persian loanwords, really a lot. The same is true for the Turkish tribes (and to a lesser extend) Mongol tribes that infiltrated (or conquered in the case of the Mongols) large parts of the Islamic world from the 11th century. In my version of the Khanid language the Amarrian alphabet was adopted—like with Persian and Turkish (until 1920-something).

AD 20544
The Amarrians conquer the last state on Athra. They now control the whole planet

AD 23236 (YC 0)
Eden Standard Time (EST) is agreed upon by world leaders at the historic Yoiul Conference. A period of accelerated space colonization by independent parties begins

So, thats a total of.... give or take, about 3 thousand years in the Amarr Empire in a culture of dominance - while I conceive its possible the Khanid have and maintain some form of language its hard for me to think it would be anything but a bastardised version of Amarrish, just seems a stretch knowing what the Amarr are like when it comes to conquered/merged civilisations

Hebrew is around 3000 years old—or even older. It survived and under not always so friendly circumstances (okay with a little love from Eliezer Ben-Yehuda later, but as a ritual language it survived anyway). So it is definitely possible. I would wager one million dollars that Persian will be around in 1500 years as well, but I estimate my life expectancy is a bit lower than that. Aramaic is an even better example.

Anyhow, it is completely possible. There are many examples where languages have disappeared, not so many where they've survived under rough circumstances. There are so many thinkable scenarios: Khanid could have become some kind of Lingua franca for certain professions, because it was more flexible to describe combat situations in spatial metaphors. Whatever, as our fantasy isn't limited, and it's possible, I see no reason speaking against speaking Khanid!

[Morwen Lagann]

Hebrew didn't have to stand up against anything like the Amarr Empire, however. No language we use today has.

If there is or was an old Khanid language from back before they were assimilated, I'd expect it is probably as some others have suggested - a language of study and not really in widespread use.

The "modern" Khanid language, if any exists, is likely an offshoot of Amarish that formed in the several hundred years after Khanid II said "fuck you and your suicide ritual" to the other Heirs and founded the Kingdom. Even if it's still very similar to 'standard' Amarish, I'd expect that over those several hundred years it's become different enough to merit being given its own name; whether it's still mutually intelligible with Amarish (like various Scandinavian languages are today) or if it's progressed further than that (like Cantonese vs. Mandarin Chinese), would probably depend on other factors.

[Matariki Rain]

Hebrew is around 3000 years old—or even older. It survived and under not always so friendly circumstances (okay with a little love from Eliezer Ben-Yehuda later, but as a ritual language it survived anyway).

The point there, though, is that Hebrew didn't survive as a spoken language of daily life. Ideas about when it stopped being used for daily speech have varied, but "Most scholars now date the demise of Hebrew as a spoken language to the end of the Roman Period, or about 200 CE" and "Ever since the spoken usage of Mishnaic Hebrew language ended in the 2nd century CE, Hebrew had not been spoken as a mother tongue".

The revival of Hebrew language is fascinating, as you clearly know. It's one of the things I have in mind when I think of the establishment of Modern Standard Matari in the fledgling Republic. I think it supports the ideas that "some languages can endure as ritual and official languages long after they've stopped being used for anything else" and "we have one example of a ritual language being used as the basis for a living language in pretty special--but very intriguing--circumstances". I don't think it says much more than that, hence my earlier comment about Khanid maybe surviving as a ritual language, although I do wonder about what rituals it might have survived in. Something to do with the warrior tradition, maybe?

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Languages, usually, don't vanish over night, much less do they come into existence over the lifetime of a man by natural development. I don't see how and why a 'khanid' dialect of Amarrish should rise within the Kingdom, when this would mean that the King would have to change his tongue for that. Also, the other holders are probably not dieing much faster than him. If there's a 'Khanid' dialect to Amarrish it's probably much older than the foundation of the Kingdom.

On the other hand, the west-slavic languages of the slavic tribes within Germany survived for more than 500 years in the drawehno-polabian dialects, even though in the middle ages there was a concerted effort to eliminate it and even survived to the modern days in the sorbian languages. And we have no reason to assume that the Amarr launched such an attack on the culture of their close allies, the Khanid. The Khanid are valued within the Empire for their distinctive features and they are a big enough group within the Empire to keep their language alive.

It's a fallacy to assume that an Empire needs to work on a single language and will lead to the extermination of all others. Neither does it go that the Scriptures will facilitate the adoption of the Amarrish language: First, the language of the Scripture isn't 'modern' Amarrish. Second, there is evidence that the Amarr translate at least parts of the Scriptures for educational and missionary purposes. One shouldn't be surprised that such translations into the Khanid language would be highly prized within the Khanid community and many others within the Empire. If nowhere else, it would probably have survived there. As I pointed out such missionary efforts usually go hand in hand with avid study of the language in question.

As to the question of the origin of the word "Khanid":
It all began on Amarr Prime in the early days of the Reclaiming, during which the name Khanid was given to the Khanid chiefs by the True Amarr. The moniker means "little lord" or "lordling" and is an affectionate term generally given to a cherished friend. Soon after, the name began to be applied to the nation as a whole, and even after the Khanid domain was raised in status to one of the great Amarr Holder families, the ruling family adopted the Khanid name as their own, winning the hearts of the Khanid people in the process.

PF doesn't say much about the origin of the moniker, just that it was given to the Khanid by the Amarr - one might claim this implies that it originated from the Amarrian language, but it's by no means a necessity.

[Odelya]

There are always a lot of traffic jams here in Tehrān that can be used for wondering about things. So I was wondering, can you think about a people that preserved its  “identity” while it lost its language entirely at the same time?

There are many examples of multi-cultural empires in history. The were the pretty much the norm and not the exception in human history. And the Imperial language was not always necessarily the language of the ruling class. Fun fact: While Shah Abbas of Iran was writing his poems in Turkish, his archenemy the Ottoman Sultan was writing his in Persian.

Monolithic national states, however, which have “purified” language and erased other languages as a part of their nation building are a relatively recent phenomenon and it would be eurocentric and chronocentric to suggest that what was the standard in the last two hundred years is the standard in same distant future. (Of course the monopoly of language is connected to a monopoly of power which couldn't be enforced in preindustrial societies. But I imagine that the first stages of space travel and expanse resembled premodern circumstances in terms of control etc.)

When we look at the Khanid they didn’t merge into the Amarr society as much as the Udorians did. There is some pf indicating that nowadays you need to be some connaisseur to distinguish Amarr and Udorians. The Khanid however have racial traits unshared with the Amarr, they are a bloodline in its own right, which could be seen as an indicator that there wasn’t much interracial marriages. And if there wasn’t much “interbreeding” there also must have been reasons for that and this reason reflects on a distinct identity.

I think it is important to distinguish between a.) the Khanid bloodline and the political entity b.) “Khanid Family/Khanid Kingdom”. I the op was exclusively referring to a.).

And I agree with Matariki and Nicoletta. The Khanid were on the forefront for the Reclaiming. I imagine Khanid battalions speaking Khanid.

[Matariki Rain]

And I agree with Matariki and Nicoletta. The Khanid were on the forefront for the Reclaiming. I imagine Khanid battalions speaking Khanid.

Ah, but I think they speak Amarish, perhaps with some battlecries that date from before they were called "Khanid".

I interpret the information on Scripture and the Scripture Education pack for use in the Republic differently to Nicoletta, but I'm not going to die in a ditch over it.

Here's a snippet from very early on in EVE lore:

All the major races in EVE speak their own language and all attempts to make one the lingua franca have failed because of stubbornness over accepting any one language as the dominant one. Amarish, the language of the largest empire, is obviously the most common language, especially as most Minmatars also speak the language.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I'd like to hear your interpretation, then.

Yes, the Matari slaves were educated in Amarrish and their native language seems to have been suppressed, but again, that's not been the case with the Khanid - they weren't enslaved nor was there any need to suppress their culture as they readily accepted the Amarrian religion.

Modern Amarrish helps little while reading the Scriptures, unless one has a translation at hand. Unless the Evelopedia article got it wrong. And I honestly don't see much interpretational leeway in regard to the Amarrians being willing to translate Scriptures into native languages of foreign cultures. It's the cornerstone of peaceful missionary work and the Amarr never ruled it out as a viable and valuable complement to the forceful reclaiming.

And there is strong evidence that the Khanid people converted peacefully. So, it's quite likely that missionaries taught them the religion in Khanid language, I think.

 It's kind'a like how the polish people managed to keep their language and culture alive: They converted to Christianity and joined the Christian western nations under the roman catholic church. Their westernmost cousins didn't manage the transition to Christianity like the polish people did, even though their princes tried to go the same way through adoption of Christianity, they failed to build a Christian Obotrite state.

Also, the fact that Amarrish is the official language of the Empire doesn't mean that there aren't other languages spoken. As Odelya pointed out, in the history of human empires it was rather the rule that they were multi-lingual. The Persian Empires, the Roman Empire, the Empire of Alexander the Great, the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, ... actually, I can't think of a single Empire in the history of humankind where all languages but one were eliminated.

Of course the Amarr would insist that their language will be installed as lingua franca regardless of whether there are also other languages spoken within the Empire.

As an ado, I really can't see the Khanid battalions of the time when the Amarr started to conquer Athra speaking anything but Khanid, while they were fighting at the forefront.I think it's not clear whether they still are but I don't see them turning to a foreign language within a few generations, especially when there is no outside pressure to do so.