Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Laurentis Thiesant on 08 Sep 2013, 05:23
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I'm doing a thing.
World-building, Gallentean politics, Intra-Faction Conflict, that sort of thing.
Trying to break the mould whilst keeping it in a familiar setting (good old Caldari/Gallentean drama).
I'd love to have anyone get involved in anyway they want. I have no real 100% set plan and am adaptable. Get in touch if you want to do something please.
The citizens of Federation colony Mantenault VI go to the polls today in what will be a deciding moment for the future of not only their planet, but also for the entire tone of the Federation and Caldari warzone brought in under the CONCORD Emergency War Powers act.
This is how the parties on Mantenault have been campaigning leading up to the voting period today:
(http://isode.destori.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/mantenault_stanceofparties.png)
Under normal Mantenault law, government affairs are handled on an ad hoc basis built on the foundation of a direct democratic system with suffrage held by all registered citizens of the colony. Shortly after the start of the CONCORD-sanctioned conflict in their region, the people of Mantenault voted to give up their authority to a 'National Administrative Government' overseen by the four sizable political parties on the planet. While in the past the 'parties' have acted more as community lobby groups in the Mantenault system, this reform in YC 110 gave them direct control over colonial affairs for the first time.
6 260 455 voters are eligible to cast a vote in this referendum authorized by the Administrative government, with three of the four council members supporting the move. While records on council decisions are sealed for six months immediately following, it is widely believed that the dissenting voice was Marnian Veroe of the Ultra-Nationalists.
With voting commencing shortly, the Institute of Social Development has decided to cover this poll as the the people of Mantenault decide – is it time to go back to business as usual after years of back and forth, or is it too early and too much of a risk during ongoing hostilities?
Have your say. Contact Laurentis Thiesant or respond on the IGS and tell us if you think it's time liberty or security reigned on Mantenault. Is the militia war no longer a direct threat to planetary colonies or is the worst yet to come?
Stay tuned for more updates as the day progresses.
The vote is being covered on the IGS here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3588378&#post3588378 and on the ISODE site here: http://isode.destori.com/?page_id=64
Join in!
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Sociocrat reforms now up.
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I'm seriously torn between creating a sociocrat or an U-Nat.
BECAUSE WE MISS HANS NARDIEU :evil:
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http://isode.destori.com/?page_id=64
Next two updates are available, featuring the following two pretty pictures.
(http://isode.destori.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/mantenault_firstnumbersfoul.png)
(http://isode.destori.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/mantenault_protests.png)
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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3589179#post3589179
Today’s events are not the first time that the controversial National Administrative Government has been the subject of heated debate. Since its inception several years ago, there have been near constant questions raised (mostly from outside sources) about the NAGs status under colonial law. Some academics believe that the structure of the emergency government, while put in place by democratic mandate, was in fact a violation of parts of the Federation charter which all member worlds and colonies agree to upon formation. Much of this debate has remained highly theoretical however, as the isolated and usually unimportant nature of the Mantenault colony meant that for the most part, the mainstream of Federal academia and law didn’t care enough to investigate further.
The decision to eventually hold a second vote on the NAG was brought to the party-based council after pressure began to be applied to the Progressor and Sociocrat parties from their superiors in the Placid region. Sources have said that other regional divisions of their parties were concerned about the effect the NAG could have on their public relations and campaign potential. One regional independent was believed to have called the NAG the death of democracy and spent much of his campaign highlighting the links between this ‘death’ and the major parties.
Back on the campaign trail, colonial militia forces have moved in to monitor the protest and calm minor scuffles that have flared up as counter-protesters have moved in to lodge their opposition to those calling for the vote to be scrapped.
As things stand, the no vote is now ahead on 1 102 388 with yes trailing slightly on 1 077 603. The feeling that we’re getting around the community is that many ‘yes’ voters are holding back and waiting for an ‘all clear’. The question now is whether or not that signal will be sounded in time, or will the negative campaign reach its quota of votes before the affirmative side can rally and make a comeback.
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(http://isode.destori.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/mantenault_suspended.png)
I need to sleep. Stay tuned for more from my wall of text.
I hope you're all enjoying my experiment in doing a thing.
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This was an interesting thing that you just did. I'm looking forward to seeing more of it, will try to stay updated. Thanks for your hard work!
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Keep up to date! Coverage has resumed!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3590912#post3590912
(http://isode.destori.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/mantenault_resumption.png)
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Interesting. I like this. :)
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So...basically this is an event of a colony deciding how they want to be governed?...sorry, I'm not very good with Gallente politics. Can I get a more summarized, laymen version of this? :ugh:
NOT SAYING THIS IS BAD OR BORING!!! It's good someone is doing something, I just...sort of suck at following in-game politics.
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Oh just read the two pages of posts on the IGS and you'll be fine! :s
A big thanks to those who have participated insofar, less so/more so those on the Summit who have bombarded me with constant questions about democracy including every negative scrap they can find (whilst shrouding it in 'innocent nativity').
Those who are jumping in on the IGS - you're also good folk, talking this story to the next phase and the first 'opening' of the storyline.
What comes next will require some more capsuleer support I think, so please do help when the opportunity arises.
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Fortunately Arista does have a Gallente officer in her crew roster who can explain it slowly and in terms she can understand. :D
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Fortunately Arista does have a Gallente officer in her crew roster who can explain it slowly and in terms she can understand. :D
Good because all that was tough to deal with at 1:30am in the dark. :lol:
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Hehe, sorry about that. Tib Haaaaaaaaaates Democracy. Such a misguided system, to his eyes.
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I've been really enjoying these. Thank you.
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This is a very interesting arc.
Can I do anything to help, with any of my alts or mains?
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As noted in the main thread earlier today, I've manage to rope Seriphyn and his Elusenians into the troubles - which means, should my Sociocrat friends support the measure, we'll be going to another poll.
I've also received evemails about other involvement which I'll be replying to shortly. I'm trying to find the balance between appropriate micro-management and free handed EVE RP. I think we're doing alright there.
There will be a thing happening shortly, maybe after the rerun election or in tandem with it that'll play a part in the next phase of the storyline - and that will be open to engagement - hopefully through the PANDORA system if it is up a running right by then, or by whatever other mechanism we choose if it can't perform how we want it to.
I'm also considering an 'election night party' at someones IC venue (maybe the Gal Lounge or somewhere else that is appropriate) through which all characters can engage.
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I'm also considering an 'election night party' at someones IC venue (maybe the Gal Lounge or somewhere else that is appropriate) through which all characters can engage.
TGM (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4036.msg83038#msg83038) is available if you want, just give Morwen or Repentence a call to arrange.
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Thanks for creating this story arc. Always useful to have current events to gab about.
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I'm also considering an 'election night party' at someones IC venue (maybe the Gal Lounge or somewhere else that is appropriate) through which all characters can engage.
TGM (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4036.msg83038#msg83038) is available if you want, just give Morwen or Repentence a call to arrange.
Thankyou very much for that Morwen, I think I have a time that'll fit most timezones, with the advisory of those who have helped me in this project.
The tenative date is Saturday the 21st of September 2013 at 1400 hrs EVE time.
That's 12am sunday if you are in AUS (like me), 2pm saturday if you're in the UK and 6am saturday in US/Pacific.
Fuck timezones are hard. I believe I've also managed to make this not clash with the Navy Day event on the 22nd.
I hope people can make time for it.
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Aiming to put the news Reel for the week in by Thursday, will include this :)
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from the IGS...
ALERT
The Institute of Social Development will be hosting a referendum day party once the polling places have closed and the count begins.
This event will be held at the Golden Masque on the 21st of this month at 1400 hrs EVE standard time.
We believe that it is important for those who support uniquely Gallentean principles such as democracy and fair and open political freedoms show solidarity to the people of Mantenault as they work to reaffirm their commitment to our Union even in spite of the problems which have troubled them in recent weeks. We also believe that now is an opportunity for those from other races who endeavour to explore our way of life in greater detail to come along and discuss politics in true Federate fashion, with good drinks and good company.
I'll also be taking that opportunity to address attendees on the next way forward for the recovery of Mantenault, and what we can all do to show our humanity and lend a hand.
I hope to see you all there.
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Thanks Morwen.
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You know the thing I maybe miss are "interviews of random people in the street" like in CCP news, that you did a little at the beginning of the storyarc. It helps picture a lot how is it to live there while all of this is happening. It fleshes out a lot the universe during the event.
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EVENT BEGINS IN TWO HOURS AT THE GOLDEN MASQUE CHANNEL
Be there.
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That's it, ladies, gentlemen and those otherwise defined! The polls have closed on Mantenault and now the counting can begin.
You can follow updates of the count here (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276222), or visit our referendum night party live at 'The Golden Masque' which starts now.
The Institute of Social Development recommends attendance! Come play with us.
Come ooooon.
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The resolution happened: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3641342&#post3641342
The result was determined by the poll in this thread all that time ago.
Grats, you guys shaped a world.
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It has come to the attention of the Collective that Mantenault is currently in Caldari hands. :3
World building might not be over!
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It has come to the attention of the Collective that Mantenault is currently in Caldari hands. :3
World building might not be over!
*Go to bed*
*Wake up with two new pages on the thread and a military escalation*
THIS ESCALATED QUICKLY! HELP!
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Seri and I have talked this through a little. Essentially, we've decided that troops from Pyre can be deployed to districts that are controlled by the State. Elusenian's will control Gallente held districts.
I hope this is okay?
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Seri and I have talked this through a little. Essentially, we've decided that troops from Pyre can be deployed to districts that are controlled by the State. Elusenian's will control Gallente held districts.
I hope this is okay?
I've done the part of the event I wanted to micromanage. I'm happy to see it opened up as long as it doesn't become a neverending crazy pissing-contest (like a microcosm of the FW itself).
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That's not my intention. Especially not for things that aren't really within our control.
PF isn't really set up to invade worlds. I really HAVE had 4800 marines in Nonni for about four months or so and have been dedicated time to them IC for training and suchlike, but I'm a little uncomfortable with the wankery aspects of saying 'Lol Invasion from Space'.
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Where is the love. :eek: But an excellent job all around.
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Enjoyed the event a lot. It was directly addressing some of the core themes of Gallente lore, gave raise to a number of lively debates, will probably be remembered for a long time, and it's not ever over yet - more repercussions seem likely to come. The reporting, story, visuals were all top-notch. It was also a good (albeit risky) call to extend the affair over several weekends, let the players get used to the idea and have enough time to get involved.
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I suspect very little more will actually happen (at least from our end). With no way to direct friendly DUSTIES to flip Mantenault planetary districts (all Dust battles are random, apparently) and with Veik's reluctance for us to get too much involved in anything that we can't back up in Space, it seems unlikely that I'll get to push the red button on a planetary occupation. :(
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Apparently that thread turned into quite nefariously OOC veiled snipes at the 8th page. People arguing on whether they can not quote stuff that is basically nonexistant in PF OOcly, and other people basing pure fantasies on the same nonexistant material.
Doh, I forgot. We are here to win at RP ! :roll:
The IGS in a nutshell I guess. And when I think we were speaking of godmodding in the other thread... Pretty good example imo.
/rant
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My post was a shameless call-out on what I felt was a crappy move OOC. I also had a discussion with the person via mail about it, which was far more civil.
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Dear God, that thread now. :lol:
I have no idea why the concept of actually being able to back your RP up in-game is such a terrible thing. It prevents situations such as the case now where it becomes he said vs. they said, like a bunch of children playing, "Whose toys are more super awesome powerful because they said so."
I'm quite disinclined to pursue such a form of "RP" because it will always descend into the depths of impotent dick-waving via IGS posting. It's like no one is able to grasp the simple concept that if/when Pyre Falcon does in fact enact its planned "Asset Realization" operations it will be done so only, as is quite realistic, that it maintains a degree of space superiority in a system for an extended length of time while taking all available planetary districts. This is so that there can be absolutely little to no doubt that corporate jackboots are being applied to faces.
Even then, there's other ways to play any denials of as such to the benefit of Pyre Falcon. It can just as easily be said, indeed, the capture of all planetary districts does not mean total occupation. As such, all the unverified reports of Veik authorizing chemical pacification of urban centres on a planet are lies or propaganda.
Present size of PYRE and certain game mechanics preclude this at present, hence why no claims have been made as far as I can see about it doing bugger all in Mantenault beyond Veik pointing that it's "On the list". If anything was going to happen it would involve a lot more shooting things in space and a lot less shit-posting on IGS.
Also, it's threads like that, that always make me think:
*slams open door*"IT'S PYRE FALCON TIME!"
*sound of sobbing*"No Veikitamo, no!"
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Actually I thought that was a good thread with interesting world building things, where that series of news reinforced immersion and provided depth and insightful possibilities for a lot of shades of RP where everything can not be good or evil.
Then "You can't do that it's illegal according to the CEWPA charter !"
"Oh yeah ? Provide proofs or stfu !"
"No need to provide proofs any idiot can access the charter"
"You are wrong the CEWPA states that you are and says X"
"No u. It says Y, you just have to check it it's available to everyone even if I pulled Y out of my ass !"
happened. Or how to ruin an immersive storyarc.
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I don't think it's the first time the, "proof or stfu" argument has ruined some RP, Lyn, and I don't think it will be last.
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I was a bit sad to see the thread end up the way it did, as well. I feel like weird passive-aggressive IC metafiction arguements happen quite a lot in EVE compared to other games, which I suppose makes sense when you think about the setting - It's extremely large, with huge amounts of undefined, uninspectable space, from everywhere from the inside of a Capsuleers ship (crew size debates) to how technology works, to even large aspects of the makeup of whole cultures and nations.
Putting aspects of the world in the hand of the players is a blessing and a curse. This sort of thing can't really happen (or atleast not without huges streches in the imagination) in a regular MMO where if somebody claims such-and-such is happening in someplace, it's easy to just walk over there and say, "No, it isn't", or "Yes, it is". But in eve, there's no possible way to resolve it beyond the people involved breaking immersion and chatting OOC about what they collectively think it would be cool to fill in the "blanks" of the world with.
It kinda reminds me of the idea of Schrodingers Cat, actually.
You have a box with a cat inside where, due to quantum superposition hypothetically confusing the hell out the universe and human perception, it is paradoxically both alive and dead at the same time. Much in the same way that Mantenault currently exists in both a state of Caldari jackboot oppression and a Federal democratic status quo, and the CEWPA charter exists in both of state of permitting and disallowing militaries to mess a bunch with planetary populations. The only way to bring an end to this state is open the box - To "Observe" the cat and force the cosmos to make a decision.
However, we aren't able to do that, because the ability to interact at all with the box simply isn't in the game. So all we can do is present our own opinions of what probably exists inside the box, what "makes sense" due to outside context, even though they'll never be more then subjective perceptions, just like anything else that we, as players, can't "observe" with our own two eyes while flying around space in the game or reading in the lore.
It's reallty frustrating. For instance, I could make the claim that Gwen's family is so ludicrously wealthy that they actually own an entire continent on Saisio - And there'd be no way to say I'm wrong. Even if you were to plant PI crud all other the entire planet, I could just as easily claim that those facilities don't offer any actual control, and are just peacefully run by the locals, because the game does nothing to say otherwise.
No matter how ludicrous my statement was, there'd be no way to argue with me logically. Because the game does nothing to confirm or deny my opinion.
Hence, since the box can never be "opened" and the truth never "observed", all of the different possible worlds exist indefinitely in parallel to eachother, even though they're inherently contradictory. Which means that the only possible objection to someones perception is to challenge it with your own differing perception. Which by it's very nature, drags things out of character and sours the fun - Since it's a challenge to the both the player and the characters world, not just the character themself.
...Honestly, it almost seems like the only thing to do is for roleplayers to avoid things outside of the context presented by the game altogether. Although, that would create a very limited and kind of abstract world to interface with.
Maybe sandboxes are just bad for roleplay? :s
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Well, I enjoyed attempting to find ambiguity in the Pyre-Falcon shareholder agreement. Especially considering there was no way possible at all ever that ISODE would be able to beat Pyre in any kind of action.
So that was fun, but yeah, things seemed to have devolved around the exact text (which is why I focused on Pyre's thing in writing in the first place instead of other documents).
It is unfortunate what happened, but at least we got somewhere at the start.
Cool things can happen when people are willing to throw their faction open to reasonable, but defendable attack. We should do that more often.
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Ironically, Seriphyn and I were able to come to a gentleman's agreement on how the mechanics of occupying the planet would work with about ten minutes discussion in a OOC channel ingame.
It only really went pearshaped when someone demanded I provide the full text of a document that's public in canon but hasn't actually been written OOC. Yeah. I'll get right on that...
Anyway, it sounds like that thread has now provided all the fun it's going to. With my boss basically stomping on any further participation unless we can back it up with ingame assets and people stooping to ridiculous lengths, there's not much else to be done...
I don't know, was I wrong to participate?
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I enjoyed the thread, actually. I think it was splendid, and my short contributions of 'appeals' to both sides was fun to do. I couldn't find a place where Kat would have a bone to pick in it otherwise, which is why I was so late to the party.
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While I don't agree with how it was done in the thread, the actual (OOC) question's not a bad one: is there actually any PF that backs up the CEWPA 'documentation' - no matter how skinny or out of reach of players it may be?
I always assumed there was, but my recollection of where I got that idea from is relatively vague.
Also, was the idea that ground forces were involved with CEWPA warzones always there or did it only come into play after the Caldari occupied Placid entirely for the first time and planetary asset auctions were enacted?
I'm not saying anything is wrong there, but I honestly can't remember (or find with a fairly quick search) where the CEWPA stuff originated from.
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There's always been a good kilo of assumption mixed in with the grams of actual fact. I suspect most of our knowledge comes from the game mechanics in the warzone. Certainly the Amarr and Matari speak of taking over the actual worlds when the system control flips.
Now, with the Dusties fighting over planetary districts, it could be argued that FW System ownership determines who runs everything not on a planet, whilst control of Planetary Districts determines who owns the planets.
The real problem comes when everyone accepts that control of an FW system is measured in weeks at best. Basically, putting my Caldari Corporate head on, gaining control of a system would be a signal to send teams of salvagers there to rip the place apart and ship everything out into highsec.
Nobody would invest anything into low-sec. Populations of planets there would wither and die - excepting places like Intaki which has managed to create some stability.
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"The Ever-turning Wheels" Chronicle implies very heavily that the Caldari are occupying Federal planets, and, in a subversion of the "fascist occupiers" trope, generally doing so as peacefully and non-violently as possible. And then turning the worlds into Caldari-minded efficiency engines.
I forget where I found the PF for this, but I also found some statements talking about how the Gallente are essentially taking a scorched earth policy in Black Rise. I wish I could remember where I found it.
This appears to be an attempt by CCP to increase the grey vs. grey of the factions, but I personally think that I'd prefer that the Caldari were winning the war by anti-matter derp-cannoning anything they couldn't haul away. I mean, what's with being ebul in space and nice on the ground, huh?
Ever-turning wheels is here: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Ever-Turning_Wheels_(Chronicle) (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Ever-Turning_Wheels_(Chronicle))
One thing that should be remembered, IMO, about the Caldari, is that they do not tend towards cruelty, culturally. We really should expect to see most of the war crimes on the Gallente side - because they feel that their ideals have been justified, because they feel that someone deserves punishment. The Caldari are reward-driven, by-and-large, so they will kill you if you are in the way, or save you if they think not killing you will be better, more profitable. Nothing is personal, it's all business. Right up to the point that you try to control them or take something from them.
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I think it's pretty naive to assume that, in war, one side is more capable of 'war crimes' than the other. Vikarion's argument can easily be argued against by saying "The Gallente are legally bound (ie. the constitution) to abide by principles of human dignity, and the Caldari care little about foreigners so they could do whatever they want". The correct answer IMO is both states of affairs will exist somewhere across the couple hundred of star systems in the warzone. The Ever-Turning Wheels was just one planet after all. If EVE is about human nature, then all sides will be capable of heinous war crimes. But that's another discussion ;)
Anyway, the whole thing is supposed to be a quagmire. The CEMWPA is independent of the Caldari blind auction, and the Intaki Agreement was independent of both CEMWPA and the blind auction. The Federation Government in Villore recognizes the Intaki Agreement but does not recognize the Caldari blind auction. The Federation Government in Villore signed the CEMWPA but it's very likely the Intaki Assembly did not agree to it. And claiming opposing truths and interpretations over a legal document is very much a RL political source of tension.
The CEMWPA has been stated to be 'ambiguous' with regards to planetary ownership. Elusenia recognizes the local and historical political standard to take supremacy, and does not see the CEMWPA as being a law, just an agreement about capsuleer militias. Pyre-Falcon apparently does see it as a law, which Elusenia could not abide be. Additionally, since Elusenia is neutral, if it recognizes Caldari sovereignty over a Gallente system, they are effectively siding with the Caldari (assuming they don't recognize Gallente sovereignty over Caldari territories at the same time). And fitting with a remark in the Blind Auction chronicle, Elusenia does not recognize the development rights over Placid as a Gallente-based entity.
And I'm just ignoring the metafiction discussion IC because that's what should be done IMO. Highly enjoyable thread, otherwise. Even if it doesn't amount to nothing in-game, the diplomatic sabre-rattling is entertaining enough. Doubly so that it's not rawr slaves.
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"The Ever-turning Wheels" Chronicle implies very heavily that the Caldari are occupying Federal planets, and, in a subversion of the "fascist occupiers" trope, generally doing so as peacefully and non-violently as possible. And then turning the worlds into Caldari-minded efficiency engines."
There's a striking similarity (http://missing-link.hubpages.com/hub/The-Invasion-Occupation-and-Assimilation-of-Tibet-by-Communist-China) between the Chronicle and how a real-life invasion/assimilation process works, and that's why I'm not so sure if the implications are as positive as suggested in the quote above.
I forget where I found the PF for this, but I also found some statements talking about how the Gallente are essentially taking a scorched earth policy in Black Rise. I wish I could remember where I found it.
Here's some PF (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2885320#post2885320) which says that it's not the official policy. From the article, "The Navy will take all appropriate action to apprehend these criminals and try them for war crimes."
However, although I'm not quite convinced by Vik's reasoning concerning who is driven by what, it kind of feels plausible that the Caldari population might be more difficult (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/For_the_State_%28Chronicle%29) to assimilate, and this in turn might render a scorched earth policy as the preferred option in Black Rise and Citadel, as long as it remains below the threshold of public outrage.
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Pyre-Falcon apparently does see it as a law, which Elusenia could not abide be.
I thought it was clear by now Pyre Falcon considers it as law as what it can enforce at the end of the barrel of a gun. I believe it's the political model of, "Going to undertake unilateral action. Don't like it? Feel free to shoot it up, breh."
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I don't think it's the first time the, "proof or stfu" argument has ruined some RP, Lyn, and I don't think it will be last.
Yes, but that's not so much "proof or stfu" that ruins RP here, it is the deliberate decision to resort to the unprovable, or, said less nicely, pulling things up one's ass that are not described in PF, and thus, appropriating the PF to win said RP. Saying that one has the whole documentation at hand is kindof abusing relationship where you completely force the hand of the other players into a PF game about who has the bigger and can pull up the biggest lie since nobody obviously has the documentation available, OOCly, to begin with.
It's rather inelegant and poor form, and by experience tends to oneshot interesting RP scenes like this one.
To be clearer, one can certainly say that since they hold sovereignty in space through FW game mechanisms (can't be denied, and that's backing one's word with ingame actions, the holy grail), and thus can invade the planet(s) as they see fit, through districts and DUST for ingame actions, or through pure world building like we have seen already in chronicles where planets are invaded and transferred under the control of the enemy. Of course, world building can be seen as pulling things up one's ass, but that's fine if you can have an OOC agreement with the other side like in any world building coop stuff. In that vein, that thread was extremely intriguing and rather awesome as it involved a strong discussion on who has the right to do what in that silly intricacies of intergalactic treaties and jurisdictions in the frame of the proxy war. Which means, as it is often best (and worse) in RP in Eve, the more vague and grey it is, the more it offers opportunities for each side and does not offer a clear cut unilateral consequence.
But one has to be careful when threading with so called documents supposedly available to everyone ICly. You can make up stuff without contacting the other parties to see if that's fine with them, but that's a bet in itself since if they do not agree at all with your interpretation, that's suddenly drama on the table, and like Gwen says, putting a Schrodinger cat in a box. Here it's exactly like making up scriptures to prove one's point. The other side has the remaining options to :
- Withdraw / stfu.
- Counter argue and say that you are quoting bullshit.
Which gets everyone absolutely nowhere.
So, all in all, I perfectly expect that from the random guy on the IGS, but I was a little disenchanted to see that was actually us.
That said that's the only issue I had with that awesome event, and double awesome by the fact that Laurentis tried to set up something for one, and then actually get people involved and interested to the point that military escalation was almost going to happen, like a few crisis during the cold war, ready to detonate.
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On the contrary, I think it's perfectly okay to suggest our characters have the entire text available to them IC, and quote some "made up" passages from said text. I think with some common cooperation, both sides could have hashed it out OOC and said, "So what exactly did your character see in the text, and how else might it be interpreted?" Maybe there are issues with interpretation, translations between languages, or even legalese. There could have been any number of arguements that would have worked better:
"That passage doesn't apply to you, capsuleer!"
"You're still violating Article VII, Section G-56, where it is clearly stated that ______________..."
"We retain sovereign rights to this area, regardless of occupation!"
"You've translated the text wrong for your own agenda! It clearly says ___________ in our translations!"
Suggesting that none of us can see the text is a bit derpy. We might as well never quote Scriptures, or the Federation Constitution, or the Quafe can labeling. If we can't handwave some worldbuilding for our characters, things get boring very fast. The key isn't rigidly sticking to only what PF is physically available to us as players. The key is cooperation when we add to it.
It wasn't the claim of knowing what's in the CEWPA that ruined it. It's the lack of cooperation displayed by some involved parties that ruined it. As said by Pieter earlier in the thread, he and Seriphyn worked it out - why couldn't everyone else?
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Truth be told, I'm a terrible roleplayer and always do it wrong in that I try not to make grandiose claims I can't back up in space whilst trying not to pull the rug from underneath others with arbitrary tossing of PF rules at them.
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Keep it simple and vague, because constructing the perfect 'source' out of non-existant PF is as retarded as demanding proof for something you OOCly know can not be delivered, simply because it does not exist in PF.
It should be fairly simple to construct a believable IC viewpoint for almost any direction something like this could go without ruining it for other interpretation. Especially in legal matters. Why do you think laws are enforced in courts by people, not by a check in the databank. It hardly is an on/off situation even when you're trying to settle a dispute about a fecking garden fence. Escalate this to national or even international matters and the sad truth is that it depends less on what is written, but more on what you can get away with, eloquently summarized by Gesakaarin in one of the posts above.
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I am probably over dramatizing it since people seem to be able to work it out and do some damage control on all sides to make it work. :)
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I'm always totally vague when referring to space-rules, because we don't have the text. I felt justified to say "CEMWPA says we have jurisdiction" because of the Caldari control of that system. Seri felt justified to say "No it doesn't. We control the planetary districts." and I ceded that to him.
Of course Elusenia then went on to say "Shove the CEMWPA up your butt, we don't recognise it as a law!" at which point, if there had been Caldari control of Planetary districts, I'd have felt perfectly justified to say "We're hotdropping Caldari districts with troops. Move your Carabineros or lose 'em, sister."
That would have led to more negotiating, but I'm fairly sure Seri would have backed off - provided I stuck to Caldari controlled planetary districts.
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Have to say, I really liked this event. A great example of a player run event going beyond what's intended by allowing participation of others & communication between participants (up till the whole CEMWPA stuff) But honestly, I followed what Laurentis Thiesant did, ignoring the less 'productive' RP'ers and stuck to the ones with sense (Pieter & Seriphyn and those who kept levelheaded) to make it a nice story.
Why did I follow Laurentis? Because even tho he gave it out of hands after the election, it still felt like 'his event' sort of a GM for it, and hence a moderator for what course to follow. Him being levelheaded about it was a great bonus. The events that transpired & how things were done/handled serve as an inspiration for what I'm trying to do with the colony worldbuilding (without the fancy graphic pics)
Apologies for the late reply on this, but really wanted to say it in public, also as thanks to Laurentis for doing something like this.