Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Gwen Ikiryo on 11 Mar 2013, 18:47
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Hey everyone - Got a quick question about the Napaani language, if you don't mind.
Keeping it brief: Is it supposed to be the modern, generally accepted universal tongue of the State? Like, that everybody uses?
Or is it a niche (and possibly incomplete) language used exclusively by people high in State society, in an attempt to reclaim the ancient Raata tongue which has been semi-forgotten and gone unused for centuries? While the majority would only speak "Standard Caldari", or what-have-you, which'd be some sorta heavily federal-influenced affair.
I've seen both interpretations, and have so far been assuming the second, but it's led to some quasi-awkward moments where my RP ends up butting heads with someone elses, so I'd like to get it cleared up.
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It could be a resurgence language in modern times. I seem to remember something on Evelopedia about the Caldari educational institutions under direction of the megacorporations ensuring that differences in the "main" Caldari language were not so grand as to hamper communication between any two Caldari. Not unlike Nynorsk and Bokmål in Norway.
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It could be a resurgence language in modern times. I seem to remember something on Evelopedia about the Caldari educational institutions under direction of the megacorporations ensuring that differences in the "main" Caldari language were not so grand as to hamper communication between any two Caldari. Not unlike Nynorsk and Bokmål in Norway.
Ivar Aasen is Caldari? :D
*Hugs Yoko for being such a Scandinerd*
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As I understand it, once the Caldari left a single world they decided they need a central language to reduce 'linguistic drift'. Napaani is a reinvented version of what is known of one of the old Raata languages.
Apparently the amount it is used varies depending upon the corporate culture and the formality of the communication. Generally the use of Napaani should serve some special purpose - whether it's establishing inliers and outliers or just for emphasis.
At least that's how I do it..... >_<
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I'm not even touching that subject again with less than a thousand meters long pole.
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Rather. People mostly use a few signature phrases to add some flavor. People's opinions on how realistic or desireable that is may vary, but I can't recall a single instance of Caldari roleplayers excluding others because they don't salt their sentences with the occasional -haan, or refusing to explain a phrase IC or OOC when prompted.
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From here (http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Ken/Napanii_Primer_%28July_10%29%5B1%5D.pdf)
Having found this document you may be wondering at its purpose and at my intentions for having created it. The simple answer is that it is a piece of fan fiction written for the setting of EVE Online. The harder answer is that it is an expression of the freeform play encouraged in the sandbox game world of New Eden and it is also homage to the deep, rich, and dark universe of EVE and the characters that inhabit it. Some players prefer to mission, some to mine, some to steal, and some to save. I enjoy these things too, but most of all I prefer to imagine. Here, myself and several others over the years have imagined the words and sounds of a far future world and brought them out to share.
There's a lot more background explanation as to where napaani originates from, where it was used and how and why it was resurrected. I'm going to pull some lines out to illustrate the use, but I suggest reading the whole couple of paragraphs before dismantling the quoted lines.
When it was reconstructed during the war, the linguists charged with the task set about simplifying the grammar and writing system of ancient Napanii so that it could be accessible to all citizens regardless of their education level or linguistic background.
[...]
The actual use of Napanii varies from place to place and between different socio-economic groups in the State. Deeply patriotic corporations and persons are prone to use the “State language” (Napanii) more often than the “street language” (Caldari).
It's essentially an old Raata era language that has been reinvigorated by the megacorporations during the secession war, to promote cohesion, unity and patriotism. It's claimed to be an 'official state language', whereas the day to day language differs from it.
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Eep. I hadn't intended to start an argument. My bad.
Er... So it's generally accepted that it's not the language of "the common people", but interpretations seem to differ as to if there is a "Caldari basic" (Or what have you) that's in universal use throughout the rest of the State, or if it's highly fragmented. That makes sense, I suppose, if there's no canon basis.
And Kyoko, I'm not quite sure I follow your analogy (Not much for norwegian linguistics, unfortunately). Are you suggesting Napaani might be only a dialect of a generally used State language, or an exception to the overall standardization due to it's resurgent status?
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Yes, FYI, some RP'ers consider things like Kresh and Napaani to be an OOC attempt to exclude non-Caldari RP'ers from Caldari RP.
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And Kyoko, I'm not quite sure I follow your analogy (Not much for norwegian linguistics, unfortunately). Are you suggesting Napaani might be only a dialect of a generally used State language, or an exception to the overall standardization due to it's resurgent status?
I think the suggestion is that there is a standard-CEP sanctioned version of Napaani that all government functions and inter-corporate business is conducted in, but there may be any number of variations, dialectics, or even different languages spoken throughout the State.
The comparison to Nynorsk & Bokmål to me is not extensive enough. I would argue it is more like having a common Nordic language (English :twisted: ) and then having Icelandic, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, and Finnish (which does not share much of a base with the other 4) and all their dialects spoken as well were regionally appropriate.
Only in the case of the Caldari, instead of relying on the shared common language at secession (probably some Gallente language), the idea is that they invented/resurrected a dead one.
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Languages are really on a dialect-language sliding scale. Orange's comment is not unlikely if you leave out English and possibly Icelandic; Swedish, Norwegian, and Danish are all about 50-75% mutually intelligible word for word.
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My inclusion of English was more of a cruel joke (even though there are plenty of Nordic/Germanic words in English).
My real point was that the State's languages are vast and plentiful with variation between them, but most share a common origin (some don't).
At the time of secession, my supposition is that the Caldari likely used the Federation's common tongue initially. Then as a means to further differentiate themselves they shifted resurrecting the Raata language as their common language.
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Why would they not speak Caldanese?
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English is a West Germanic Language - that's why it mainly consists of Germanic words (plenty Germanic words in a Germanic language \o/). It's not a Nordic (North Germanic) language. Finnish isn't even a Germanic language, but rather an Uralic language, wich doesn't even share a root with the germanic languages in the Proto-Indo-European language, but is a descendant of the Proto-Uralic language.
So, uh, yah, including those two is kind of a cruel joke, Finnish even more so than English. ;P
More on topic, EVElopedia says: "The Caldari are monolingual for these reasons. Although dialects exist depending on location, the corporations ensure that these linguistic variations do not prevent all Caldari citizens from being capable of fully understanding one another."
There's a bit of wriggle space there, but it seems it's in the range of dialects rather than on the languages side of the sliding scale.
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"Ah, so does this Finno-Ugric family include, say, Klingon?"
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Why would they not speak Caldanese?
:evil:
I am not a fan of the term Caldanese. If it is just some standard adjective, Caldari language would suffice. Like German language.
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Ugh. Caldanese.
Anyway, I never use Napaani and I've never really felt at all excluded. Do keep in mind though that while widely used, it is not PF (AFAIK). Probably because CCP doesn't want to have to go through and make sure no one slipped the Finnish phrase for 'your sister fucks pigs' into the PDF as a formal Napaani greeting.
I've always thought it was a bit like the 'correct' form of the Caldari language. Every speaks forms of it, but unless you received an education of a particular caliber, you probably don't speak 'proper' Napaani. That sort of thing.
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Why would they not speak Caldanese?
:evil:
I am not a fan of the term Caldanese. If it is just some standard adjective, Caldari language would suffice. Like German language.
Caldarish maybe ? :twisted:
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If it's the language of the Caldarians then it would have to be Caldarianese.
. .. .. ... \o\
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I always thought Napanii was one of those ye olde dialects of modern Caldari that's seen a somewhat resurgence by modern romantics and those who want to show how much they value tradition or whatever.
Of course, for a modern Caldari, aside from a few key phrases Napanii might sound about the same as if someone tried conversing in English using the verse of Chaucer today - sounds familiar but not exactly clear.
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I always thought Napanii was one of those ye olde dialects of modern Caldari that's seen a somewhat resurgence by modern romantics and those who want to show how much they value tradition or whatever.
Of course, for a modern Caldari, aside from a few key phrases Napanii might sound about the same as if someone tried conversing in English using the verse of Chaucer today - sounds familiar but not exactly clear.
This.
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If it's the language of the Caldarians then it would have to be Caldarianese.
. .. .. ... \o\
*stab* *stab* *stab* :evil:
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If it's the language of the Caldarians then it would have to be Caldarianese.
. .. .. ... \o\
*stab* *stab* *stab* :evil:
Gallenteanish? Amarrese? Minmatarian?
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This is getting off-topic but I actually find it important.
In all seriousness, correct me if I'm wrong and the following aren't canon:
sing. Caldari dem. Caldari lang. Caldari (or Napaani)
sing. Amarr dem. Amarrians lang. Amarrish
sing. Gallente dem. Gallentean lang. Gallentean
sing. Minmatar dem. Minmatar (or Matari) lang. Matari
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I don't think any official name has been given for the Minmatar language, but Caldanese is what I've seen given to the Caldari language in chronicles when it is explicitly mentioned (The Jovian Wetgrave (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Jovian_Wetgrave), in particular).
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Holy shit I hadn't noticed that. I read that story about 8 years ago and either it was edited or I didn't remember.
I think it's a ridiculous demonym that flies in the face of a lot of other sources but I suppose that's what CCP wants to go with.
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I think it was edited - they went through IIRC and modified some of the old chrons at some point.
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It's been that way for as long as I can remember.
I know there was something in the first part that was changed regarding the position of the story in the timeline, because I remember Abraxas fixing it after I pointed it out to him (something about the story happening way later than it should have, iirc). But nothing about the language. Could prod him on Twitter.
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I think I would have recalled seeing "Caldanese" in there, but perhaps I just blotted it from my memory. It has been an extremely long time since I reread the chron, though.
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It's true that some PF mentions the term Caldanese.
However some of the rest talks about Jamyl being coronated (as opposed to crowned) so meh! On a side note, do Mary First Citizens wear crowns?
On the other hand it is PF so, sorry.
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If it's the language of the Caldarians then it would have to be Caldarianese.
. .. .. ... \o\
So bummed someone said this before I could :cry:
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[ 2013.03.15 15:38:50 ] CCP Falcon > ugh "caldarians"
[ 2013.03.15 15:39:06 ] CCP Falcon > i cringe every time that comes out, the editors never caught it in the books
[ 2013.03.15 15:40:08 ] CCP Falcon > the correct names for when referring to race are if you were to say "He/she is xxxx" it would be "Amarr" "Gallente" "Caldari" and "Matari"
[ 2013.03.15 15:40:29 ] CCP Falcon > So, "He is Caldari" "He is Amarr" "He is Gallente" "He is Matari"
[ 2013.03.15 15:41:00 ] CCP Falcon > Amarrian refers to inanimate objects
[ 2013.03.15 15:42:06 ] CCP Falcon > That's why the empire is called the "Amarr Empire"
relevant ?
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It's true that most of these names are more elegant in their native, raw, simple form.
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CCP Falcon is tainted by his long time participation in the jaded RP community. :yar: ;)
Clearly the previous writers knew exactly what they were talking about. :roll:
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I always thought Napanii was one of those ye olde dialects of modern Caldari that's seen a somewhat resurgence by modern romantics and those who want to show how much they value tradition or whatever.
Of course, for a modern Caldari, aside from a few key phrases Napanii might sound about the same as if someone tried conversing in English using the verse of Chaucer today - sounds familiar but not exactly clear.
The same.
However, several times Makkal, Kingdom born and raised, has interacted with Caldari characters who speak to her purely in Napanii and then seem surprised/irritated that she has no clue what they're saying.
IC Makkal assumes they're assholes who are reminding her she's just a jaijii but OOC I'm wonder if this is a shift in the player base to viewing Napanii as something every educated Caldari speaks fluently.
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I have had a couple of Caldari characters for quite a while, and I have never used it. I think if other people do, that's fine, but I am probably not going to search for meanings if I don't know what they are saying. Though I might ask them.
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I have mixed feelings.
Napaani (or however the hell you spell it) is a nifty experiment that can add flavor or build a wall. For me, the line lies where you can reasonably expect an automatic translation system to flatly refuse to "leave it in for flavor."
The titles ("-haan," etc.) are great, as are "saisieni," (hello) "konbaensha," (good night) and "suuolo" (friend). That's flavorful, and I can see it staying in for the same reasons Google doesn't try to correct my spelling of "Mademoiselle" or "amigo" even if I'm writing in English.
Giving me something like a complete sentence is a bit beyond, though, even if it's meant to be a common greeting.
I'll sign on for a little cultural distinctiveness, but not to memorize the Klingon dictionary.
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Instead of thinking of it as ye olde Englys try thinking of it as Mandarin Chinese in the Cantonese area. It's the official language of government and corporate hierarchy.
The different Corps make differing amounts of use of it, from what I've read, with the younger Corps barely using it at all and the more traditional Corps using it at all high level communications, contracts and official statements.
Now, the other thing to understand about Caldari RP is that, essentially, it's the RP of inlier and outlier social groups. Using Napaani is just another way of reinforcing that.
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Instead of thinking of it as ye olde Englys try thinking of it as Mandarin Chinese in the Cantonese area. It's the official language of government and corporate hierarchy.
This firmly puts it into something all educated Caldari would speak and write in fluently. Then the question would be why a number of successful, educated Caldari capsuleers don't use it.
The different Corps make differing amounts of use of it, from what I've read, with the younger Corps barely using it at all and the more traditional Corps using it at all high level communications, contracts and official statements.
As far as I know, IRED does the majority of its communication in Caldari 'basic.' I'm not even sure the officer ranks are Napanii.
Now, the other thing to understand about Caldari RP is that, essentially, it's the RP of inlier and outlier social groups.
This is a very interesting statement to me, especially as someone who doesn't do Caldari RP. Would you mind if I started a new thread about it?
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I think I-RED/RDC ranks are Japanese. Can't remember that CCP would have really used Napanii anywhere, though some words were given meanings (and some of them are different in Napanii than original CCP meanings). Some of the player fiction which interfaces with Napanii has been adopted into prime fiction.
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I hope nobody uses Japanese for "Caldari basic" regularly, because I've been using it as an Achuran dialect. That would get a bit confusing.
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I hope nobody uses Japanese for "Caldari basic" regularly, because I've been using it as an Achuran dialect. That would get a bit confusing.
No, we don't use Japanese for 'Caldari basic'. For simplicity, we simply just use English in our primary RP, and we let the players assume what they want about whatever language is being spoken. In an amusing twist, we've got so many players who learn Napaani, but I haven't met anyone who's learned Japanese.
I-RED Ranks are indeed a partial port of the Japanese Imperial Navy Ranks from World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_ranks_of_the_Japanese_Empire_during_World_War_II), though. I-RED DUST ranks are enlisted army ranks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_ranks_of_the_Japanese_Empire_during_World_War_II#Enlisted_ranks).
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This firmly puts it into something all educated Caldari would speak and write in fluently. Then the question would be why a number of successful, educated Caldari capsuleers don't use it.
I would imagine those people to be 'Mustangs' or 'Progressives' for the most part. Although really I would chat with those people and find out WHY their characters don't use Napaani.
As far as I know, IRED does the majority of its communication in Caldari 'basic.' I'm not even sure the officer ranks are Napanii.
IRED are a Capsuleer offshoot of a Mega subsidiary. I wonder if their communications with Mama Ishy proper would be more in Napaani. Then again, maybe Ishukone are one of those progressive Corps that don't use Napaani much.
This is a very interesting statement to me, especially as someone who doesn't do Caldari RP. Would you mind if I started a new thread about it?
Not at all! It's a theory of mine based on the way that Caldari RPers seem to interact and based on the structure of Napaani and also the Caldari source stuffies. I won't go into detail here but WILL do a braindump in that new thread!
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This firmly puts it into something all educated Caldari would speak and write in fluently. Then the question would be why a number of successful, educated Caldari capsuleers don't use it.
I would imagine those people to be 'Mustangs' or 'Progressives' for the most part. Although really I would chat with those people and find out WHY their characters don't use Napaani.
Oh, my characters inevitably know Napaani and speak it very well. An Achur must become Caldari to gain access to the more interesting Caldari toys-- even if that same Achur chooses to switch right back, after.
I resent efforts to make me speak it beyond a few words or phrases for color and texture. It smacks of establishing arbitrary bona-fides based on a few made-up bits of quasi-canon. I speak English quite well-- and the universal translator inevitably speaks Napaani.
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TBH I don't think it's an attempt to exclude anyone or be elitist or be unnecessarily complicated. I really like what it adds to the Caldari RP community. It makes it a lot richer and deep. Caldari are supposed to be hella proud of their heritage and culture and would fiercely defend it. So, it stands to reason you'd get something like napaani. I think it's interesting to see it used and learn a little bit of it for fun.
I especially like the -haan/-haani it brought up, as well as other bits of language. As long as it isn't forced or used to blind side someone, it's pretty neat.
That being said, I have no clue how it'd fit into the State overall...maybe it's a new military standard variation on other Caldari languages used as a homage to times of old as well as to be able to speak without worry that people would ease drop and undermine evil jackboot plans. Just my .02 isk.
EDIT: I will say this though...the small lexicon makes it hard to write song lyrics :S
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I'm sure this has probably been stated before in this thread, but in my mind Napanii has degraded to becoming more or less of a trade language between different Caldari secs, similar to Chinook. It would make sense that a "traditional" and "business" language would need to be developed in the megacorps. It isn't all that different from how businessmen in Japan these days communicate in English during business meetings, though Napanii has an extra layer of Caldari pride in a way that served a clever dual purpose of maintaining Caldari identity and making business and industry more efficient by uniting workers and executives.
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Nope. Napaani is a very flexible language for expressing certain inflections. It does a wonderful job of describing the relationships between groups within a conversation - starting with the outermost of the outliers, those that do not speak it.
I mostly use Napaani for making kirjuuns and other Caldari feel all warm, cosy and included - but I've recently had it drawn to my attention that when my kirjuun and I jabber away in Napaani it makes us look terrible cliquey. This is wonderful, of course - the Caldari ARE cliquey.
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Fair enough.
Also, point of technicality, when making up a Napanii word when you are ABSOLUTELY sure it hasn't been made yet, do you just combine Finnish and Japanese words, or is there a method to it?
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I try not to, to be honest. :)
But if I do, I find Finnish words tend to look the most 'Napaani' - if you steal the root word and then apply the proper Napaani suffix, according to the Primer, it usually doesn't get you tarred and feathered. ;)
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Don't worry, I am not going to try and bastardize the language too bad. I am just going to try my hand at making a song for an IGS thread when I finally get some time. Thanks for all the help!
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Side note, rhyming in this language is stupid easy.