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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Makkal on 11 Jul 2012, 17:32
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Makkal is thinking of doing a 'practical guide' for non-speakers and I wondered if anyone has tried their hand at one previously. I wouldn't want a situation where two people speaking Khanid were talking in two obviously unrelated languages.
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This is worth discussing!
I'd be of the opinion there really isn't much of a "Khanid" language anymore, as they were conquered a few thousand years ago on Athra, most likely forced to speak the Amarr language, and were a willing and interested part of the empire.
I'd liken it to a 'dead' language from thousands of years ago that only a few academics still speak? The same way I doubt that that the Udorians or the Ni-Kunni are winning the battle to keep their languages alive?
When a giant hegemonic Empire conquers you, one of they first things they do is try to squash your native tongue, as we've seen through history.
I could be totally wrong though, what do you all think?
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I would expect that Khanid II might have tried pushing his own version of Amarrish or even the old language after the split - even if not, it's safe to assume that over the several hundred years between then and now that whatever version of the language they took with them to the Kingdom has since been adjusted enough that even if it's technically not a separate language from Amarrish, it's different enough to be given its own proper name.
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I would expect that Khanid II might have tried pushing his own version of Amarrish or even the old language after the split - even if not, it's safe to assume that over the several hundred years between then and now that whatever version of the language they took with them to the Kingdom has since been adjusted enough that even if it's technically not a separate language from Amarrish, it's different enough to be given its own proper name.
I think that makes more sense, maybe a 'dialiect' of Imperial Standard? Khanid being a Royal Heir and still alive, and I'm sure most of the nobility only a generation or so removed from the Empire, maybe not -that- different... ?
Maybe upper class is still speaking good and proper Imperial standard?
I could see some -very- interesting language developments in the lower and business classes, as the constant contact with the Caldari would absolutely work its way into spoken dialects?
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I take it by the discussion, we don't know of any earlier work?
This is worth discussing!
I am rather glad.
I'd be of the opinion there really isn't much of a "Khanid" language anymore, as they were conquered a few thousand years ago on Athra, most likely forced to speak the Amarr language, and were a willing and interested part of the empire.
I'd liken it to a 'dead' language from thousands of years ago that only a few academics still speak? The same way I doubt that that the Udorians or the Ni-Kunni are winning the battle to keep their languages alive?
I'm basing this off Morwen's and Odelya's posts in your thread (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=131237&p=2), where they both treat it as a living language. At least living enough that Gallentean staying in the Kingdom might pick up something she considers ‘Khanid’ and someone from the Kingdom would boast about how she only allows ‘Khanid’ on her ship.
When a giant hegemonic Empire conquers you, one of they first things they do is try to squash your native tongue, as we've seen through history.
I could be totally wrong though, what do you all think?
I don’t think the original Khanid were conquered. Rather, they converted to the Amarrian faith and helped conquer other groups. They’d enjoy a privileged minority status.
I would expect that Khanid II might have tried pushing his own version of Amarrish or even the old language after the split - even if not, it's safe to assume that over the several hundred years between then and now that whatever version of the language they took with them to the Kingdom has since been adjusted enough that even if it's technically not a separate language from Amarrish, it's different enough to be given its own proper name.
It would definitely be a language ‘rediscovered’ by the nobility of the Kingdom.
I think that makes more sense, maybe a 'dialiect' of Imperial Standard?
Dialect is a political term. It's unlikely Makkal, a separatist, would characterize a khanid language as such. Much as she rather hates the Khanid being called 'Dark Amarr.' Nor would she write a practical guide that was mostly a copypasta of Imperial Standard.
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Other possibilities: Eve is big™
So, even though the 'standard' language is Amarrian (or Amarrish or whatever you call it), there may well still be local and regional dialects. The most likely to survive is more likely to be a regional dialect associated with the Khanid house rather than with the Khanid race, I would think. The latter stopped being a separate societal and (to some degree) cultural entity a long time before the former did (and continues to do).
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I agree with Silas in that it's exceedingly unlikely that the Khanid would have maintained and utilized their original language after being subsumed by the Amarr. Sure, they weren't conquered, but even worse for their cultural heritage they were seemingly eager to join the Amarr and would probably have adopted the culture of their new masters ASAP.
That said... my main theory for why the Minmatar were able to rebel is that the Amarr didn't actually put any effort into exterminating their culture. Because the Udorian culture merged with the Amarr, the Khanid and Ni-Kunni more or less joined the Empire willingly, and the Ealur were cave-dwellers, there was never any real need to launch cultural purges of the societies that Amarr absorbed. In fact, it could be argued that the Empire's history has more counts of cosmopolitan tolerance than inquisitorial hounding. However, one of the big recurring themes of the Empire is its patience. All the Empire has to do to eradicate a culture is to conquer it and then simply stop recording its existence. The media and major archives of Amarr are controlled by those who perpetuate the core culture. A Khanid or Ni-Kunni who wanted to research the history of his race simply wouldn't find any cultural documents preserved. At most he might find census documents, historical land boundaries and genetic data. Any great treasures of culture would have been annihilated by time itself, including coherent languages.
Personally I'd argue that any Khanid language that did exist has been absorbed into Amarrian/Amarish. One could argue that there may be efforts in the Kingdom to linguarchaeologically restore the original language, but it's important to remember that the cultural elite in the Kingdom are still True Amarr. While expressions of bloodline khanid pride may be tolerated or even encouraged to blossom to build popular morale, I don't think it would be in the interests of the royals to let it get too far. Also, King Khanid II is a progressive man, not a regressor. He'd be more likely to reform the language to be less stuffy, more modern, and more useful.
But, if we separate the Kingdom from the debate, we know that the bloodline khanid are known to be cyberknights and religious zealots. These are extremes of dedication, devotion, passion and interest. It suggests an overarching trait within the khanid race for extreme focus on the pursuit of a single field or topic. Thus it's not unreasonable to assume that there could be bloodline khanid cultural revival groups out there, even though there's no actual faction to outright support them. And because of their intense focus, it's not impossible that these revivalists may have reconstructed a modern version of the ancient khanid language.
Anyway, if you haven't looked at it already, check out the Amarrad project in my signature. It's my project to build a stuffy "Old Amarrian" language that predates the Moral Reforms, and includes fragments and traces of the absorbed Udorian, Khanid and even Takmahl languages.
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That said... my main theory for why the Minmatar were able to rebel is that the Amarr didn't actually put any effort into exterminating their culture.
The Minmatar tattoo artists of today are forever seeking to regain the knowledge and skill that was lost to them when the Amarr, during their occupation of the Minmatar, issued an edict banning the practice.
This was a savage blow to the Minmatar, for a Minmatar’s tattoos proclaim who he is, where he came from, what he does, where he has been and what he has experienced. They represent a Minmatar's identity as well as his story. A Minmatar without his markings is not considered a Minmatar at all. Such a one would be as alien to the Minmatar as a universe without God would be to the Amarr. In this, as well as in myriad other ways, the Amarr began to erase the Minmatar’s culture and identity, converting them into more pliable slave stock.
During the millennium of enslavement, the Amarr all but eradicated the tattoo culture.
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I like your point of view Horatius. I would never have thought about it that way.
As Mata quoted, though, it is said that the Amarrian eradicated the Minmatar culture. But did they do it passively or aggressively ? I mean, a lot of the Matari culture remained and is still used again today, which means that firstly, they did not eradicate everything. They could also have just done as Horatius said. It is enough in itself to erase a culture over time. That is what would have happened eventually if the Minmatar never rebelled.
But they rebelled and so, kept a part of their culture before it went to oblivion. In my opinion though, it would be very unlikely that no Holder, no Amarr institution, never tried to tell to their minmatar slaves that their culture is irrelevant and has to be abandonned... I would say, both were involved to a certain degree.
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That said... my main theory for why the Minmatar were able to rebel is that the Amarr didn't actually put any effort into exterminating their culture.
The Minmatar tattoo artists of today are forever seeking to regain the knowledge and skill that was lost to them when the Amarr, during their occupation of the Minmatar, issued an edict banning the practice.
This was a savage blow to the Minmatar, for a Minmatar’s tattoos proclaim who he is, where he came from, what he does, where he has been and what he has experienced. They represent a Minmatar's identity as well as his story. A Minmatar without his markings is not considered a Minmatar at all. Such a one would be as alien to the Minmatar as a universe without God would be to the Amarr. In this, as well as in myriad other ways, the Amarr began to erase the Minmatar’s culture and identity, converting them into more pliable slave stock.
During the millennium of enslavement, the Amarr all but eradicated the tattoo culture.
Okay, they may have put some effort into it, but they had zero experience with it - especially not against a society with people that could, you know, read and write and knew science.
Also, the sheer population numbers of the Minmatar would have made them very difficult to assimilate, plus the wast swathes of new land the Amarr had to exploit after the conquest conspired to make it easier for the uprising to strike free.
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I don't want to derail a thread about Khanid language onto Minmatar cultural history and My Least Favourite EVE Retcon, but note that the Tattoos chron was post-retcon and still confirms that Amarr intentionally tried to suppress Minmatar culture.
-- We don't know to what extent, if any, the neoTraditional Matari cultures are continuations/revivals of "old" customs, vs new cultures created within the last 150 years by newly-free Matari trying to make clans and tribes and rituals and a state "as they ought to be for our people". I tend to assume the latter, even about things that are claimed as having a long tradition: that's the spin you put on things, intentionally or not. Since the retcon it's perfectly plausible to assume the former as well.
-- Amar(r)ish is the language of the Minmatar slave population, and I believe it's the most-spoken language in the cluster. I'm in a cafe, without a keyboard, though, so no links from me this time.
-- Basically, I think that while it might be possible for some sort of old pre-Khanid language to have survived in a ritual context, I'd strongly expect Amarrish to be the language of Khanid. "Khanid" is an Amarrian word, the apparently beloved noble house is Amarrian, the Cyber Knights adopted Amarrian cyber tech in pursuit of their warrior traditions, the Unionists were unhappy about the split from Amarr, and the Zealots were Amarrian religionists... I see lots of pulls toward Amar(r)ish, especially in a religion which seems to be grounded in untranslated scriptures.
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I agree with all your points.
My Minmatar comment stemmed from some rationalization work done a while back. It served to explain how the Minnies could be successfully enslaved for 700 years and still have the cultural unity to rise up and re-form their tribes. What I arrived at was that the Amarr simply didn't know how to Reclaim another advanced society. The idea that an absorbed populace could rise up was, in many ways, an out of context problem.
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As for Khanid the bloodline.... I think, Tony G had in Templar one a line form a characktrer. * Pubius looks in it. Tatiana Czar, explains here surname to Mordu, as Khanid form an old commoners dialect. So I think, most likely the old dialect/language is dead, just some academic will speak it.
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If someone attempts the creation of a language or dialect, may I humbly request a Khanid word for "gravy (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1145.msg13211#msg13211)".
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I'm with Matariki on the question whether the Amarr tried to eradicate numerous aspects of Matari culture. Though having said this, I also think Horatius has a point when he claims that the Amarr seem to have had little experience in eradicating an entire culture. I'm with him indeed when he says "In fact, it could be argued that the Empire's history has more counts of cosmopolitan tolerance than inquisitorial hounding."
So, I honestly think that the Amarr failed to assimilate the Matari exactly because they tried to eradicate the Matari culture (or at least certain aspects of it) rather than trusting in their culture being that superior that in good time it will supersede most of the tribal culture. Though, I think the Amarr had maybe some good reasons to assume that this wouldn't work so easily with the Matari: Probably the differences between the two were (perceived to be) too big for gradual assimilation of the Matari into the Amarrian culture. Then there was the fact that the Matari were not one world to conquer but several and that the Amarr seem to have turned quite greedy when having so many slaves at their doorstep.
May this be as it is, I would guess that the original Khanid language is still known within the Empire, though probably something of a relic, as the Amarrian language serves undoubtedly as lingua franca within the Empire. Still, I'd expect that some groups within the Khanid ethnicity are proud of their heritage and cultivate it. For one thing, the Khanid joined the Empire more or less freely because they converted to the Amarrian religion. Such a thing doesn't happen without some effort from the religious caste in question and as has been proven again and again in history, that most often comes with thorough study of the language of those that shall be turned to the religion. Thus, Amarrian clergy will probably have made an effort to study, document and learn the Khanid language in order to bring them into the fold (and thus win them over as allies to the Empire, something that seems to have been crucial for the Amarr to win against the Udorians and Assiminans).
Also, as the Khanid tend to form fanatic religous groups with weird (by imperial standards) teachings, I'd assume that at least some of their religous texts are preserved in Khanid and still used in that language, the same goes for church songs and the stuff, as we know that the Amarrian religion is split into different churches and churches into sub-churches that cater to the needs of their respective groups. (See: Ammatar church or the Ni-Kunni within the Amarrian orthodox church.)
Above and beyond this, the Khanid tongue might have some practical purposes that might merit its survival through the millennia. Mostly for some way of encrypting what one is communicating in one way or the other it might have had it's uses, be that on the battlefield (Like the US used Navajo code talkers in WWII) or when those few Khanid that were elevated to holder status used it to keep an upper hand in dealings with holders of Amarrian ethnicity. (For similar reasons I'd expect Ni-Kunni merchants to have some love for their mother tongue, and they didn't endure a long time of slavery at all.)
Also, we don't really know whether the term 'Khanid' is originally from the Khanid or the Amarrian language, just that the Amarr christened the - back then still ethnically Khanid - ruling family of the ethnic Khanid thusly. I'd suspect it to be an Amarrian flection of an originally Khanid root "Khan".
As for the Udorians - and the inhabitants of Assimia - I guess they never had a language entirely distinct from the Amarrian tongue, as the Amarr seem to be actually a subgroup of the Udorian/Assimian group.
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If the Khanid, Udorians and the Amarrians shared the same homeworld then why would they not share the same language.
I just think that with things like this you should go back towards before the EVE gate collapsed.
They we're probably co-operating with each other before the collapse, they probably shared the same language when dealing with the authorities on the other side of the EVE gate, they could have even been part of the same expedition. Just set on different continents and losing contact with the collapse.
The old Amarrian language in the Scriptures might actually be the language from Terra.
Which could be proven to be 'divine' because all the civilizations that the Amarrians have come across have had some ancient documents and data in that language.
Language of God.
The Minmatar thing is pretty simple, they why of them not losing their culture.
For some reason Amarrians believed the lies of the Nefantar and believed that they would be the most efficient tool for converting the Minmatar culture into the Amarrian one.
The Nefantar had no other purpose for being slave masters of their kin than to preserve their culture.
Which they did, to an extent.
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There would be only one language from Terra ?
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Exactly my thoughts, Lyn. Probably different ethnic groups hailing from Terra would have had their own languages. There is evidence, I think, that the Khanid people were, probably, of another ethnic group than the Udorian/Assimian (and that includes the Amarrian) people.
Also, the 'Nefantar plot' seems to me, in the version where the sole purpose for them cooperating with the Amarr is to preserve Matari culture, not quite believable an explanation to all the hassle the Amarr had with the Matari. First, the Nefantar apparently were less apt at doing what they aimed at then the Ni-Kunni: The Matari culture was subject to ruthless elimination programs where the Ni-Kunni culture wasn't that much. Second, I don't see all the Nefantar working on this plot. It's even clear by now that apparently the majority rather enjoyed the position they found themselves in.
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There would be one common language from Terra that would be used to deal with the bureaucracy?
There would be one language used within the Terran bureaucracy?
There would be a common language used to communicate between different ethnicities like *gasp* english is nowadays?
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Considering that the first Amarrian ancestors are described to come from old ethnic and religious, integrist settlers that wanted to recreate their own ideal society (the last time I checked PF... May have changed now, who knows), the fact that they used english or any common/universal Earth language is speculative to me. As long as people stay in their own communities and between their kin, there is little reason for them not to speak their own language.
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Personally I think its going to be more like (using English as an analogy) how Britain/UK speaks English compared to the US/Aus etc
All the same language, but each group uses it differently, has hugely different pronounciations and even spelling.
This makes sense to me for the Khanid, they have been part of the Empire for so so SOOOOOOO long that I highly doubt that managed to not simply merge the languages to a large extent.
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Makkal is thinking of doing a 'practical guide' for non-speakers and I wondered if anyone has tried their hand at one previously. I wouldn't want a situation where two people speaking Khanid were talking in two obviously unrelated languages.
I have! :-) Let’s have a chat and see if we can combine our efforts! I definitely like the idea of a "practical guide".
I disagree that the language got lost/fused completely. Look at Iran. When the Arabs conquered Iran 1400 years ago, Iranians adopted Islam, but at the same time Iranian culture also influenced Islam. As for the Persian language: It has adopted a lot of Persian loanwords, really a lot. The same is true for the Turkish tribes (and to a lesser extend) Mongol tribes that infiltrated (or conquered in the case of the Mongols) large parts of the Islamic world from the 11th century. In my version of the Khanid language the Amarrian alphabet was adopted—like with Persian and Turkish (until 1920-something).
In my "grammar" it is written: Prior to the Reclaiming and the assimilation of the Khanid people into the Empire the alphabet most common was the Khanid Script, which is now referred to as “Old Khanid Script”.
It would definitely be a language ‘rediscovered’ by the nobility of the Kingdom.
I wouldn’t think so, because the nobility of the Kingdom should mostly consist of true Amarr.
Also, we don't really know whether the term 'Khanid' is originally from the Khanid or the Amarrian language, just that the Amarr christened the - back then still ethnically Khanid - ruling family of the ethnic Khanid thusly. I'd suspect it to be an Amarrian flection of an originally Khanid root "Khan".
Doesn't it say in PF that Khanid means “little lord” in Amarr/ish or at least that the Khanid were called like this by the Amarrians? خان/Khan has a somewhat similar meaning in Mongol, Turkish, Persian etc: Lord, ruler etc.
I've attached what I've done so far.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I disagree that the language got lost/fused completely. Look at Iran. When the Arabs conquered Iran 1400 years ago, Iranians adopted Islam, but at the same time Iranian culture also influenced Islam. As for the Persian language: It has adopted a lot of Persian loanwords, really a lot. The same is true for the Turkish tribes (and to a lesser extend) Mongol tribes that infiltrated (or conquered in the case of the Mongols) large parts of the Islamic world from the 11th century. In my version of the Khanid language the Amarrian alphabet was adopted—like with Persian and Turkish (until 1920-something).
AD 20544
The Amarrians conquer the last state on Athra. They now control the whole planet
AD 23236 (YC 0)
Eden Standard Time (EST) is agreed upon by world leaders at the historic Yoiul Conference. A period of accelerated space colonization by independent parties begins
So, thats a total of.... give or take, about 3 thousand years in the Amarr Empire in a culture of dominance - while I conceive its possible the Khanid have and maintain some form of language its hard for me to think it would be anything but a bastardised version of Amarrish, just seems a stretch knowing what the Amarr are like when it comes to conquered/merged civilisations
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I disagree that the language got lost/fused completely. Look at Iran. When the Arabs conquered Iran 1400 years ago, Iranians adopted Islam, but at the same time Iranian culture also influenced Islam. As for the Persian language: It has adopted a lot of Persian loanwords, really a lot. The same is true for the Turkish tribes (and to a lesser extend) Mongol tribes that infiltrated (or conquered in the case of the Mongols) large parts of the Islamic world from the 11th century. In my version of the Khanid language the Amarrian alphabet was adopted—like with Persian and Turkish (until 1920-something).
AD 20544
The Amarrians conquer the last state on Athra. They now control the whole planet
AD 23236 (YC 0)
Eden Standard Time (EST) is agreed upon by world leaders at the historic Yoiul Conference. A period of accelerated space colonization by independent parties begins
So, thats a total of.... give or take, about 3 thousand years in the Amarr Empire in a culture of dominance - while I conceive its possible the Khanid have and maintain some form of language its hard for me to think it would be anything but a bastardised version of Amarrish, just seems a stretch knowing what the Amarr are like when it comes to conquered/merged civilisations
Hebrew is around 3000 years old—or even older. It survived and under not always so friendly circumstances (okay with a little love from Eliezer Ben-Yehuda later, but as a ritual language it survived anyway). So it is definitely possible. I would wager one million dollars that Persian will be around in 1500 years as well, but I estimate my life expectancy is a bit lower than that. Aramaic is an even better example.
Anyhow, it is completely possible. There are many examples where languages have disappeared, not so many where they've survived under rough circumstances. There are so many thinkable scenarios: Khanid could have become some kind of Lingua franca for certain professions, because it was more flexible to describe combat situations in spatial metaphors. Whatever, as our fantasy isn't limited, and it's possible, I see no reason speaking against speaking Khanid!
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Hebrew didn't have to stand up against anything like the Amarr Empire, however. No language we use today has.
If there is or was an old Khanid language from back before they were assimilated, I'd expect it is probably as some others have suggested - a language of study and not really in widespread use.
The "modern" Khanid language, if any exists, is likely an offshoot of Amarish that formed in the several hundred years after Khanid II said "fuck you and your suicide ritual" to the other Heirs and founded the Kingdom. Even if it's still very similar to 'standard' Amarish, I'd expect that over those several hundred years it's become different enough to merit being given its own name; whether it's still mutually intelligible with Amarish (like various Scandinavian languages are today) or if it's progressed further than that (like Cantonese vs. Mandarin Chinese), would probably depend on other factors.
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Hebrew is around 3000 years old—or even older. It survived and under not always so friendly circumstances (okay with a little love from Eliezer Ben-Yehuda later, but as a ritual language it survived anyway).
The point there, though, is that Hebrew didn't survive as a spoken language of daily life. Ideas about when it stopped being used for daily speech have varied, but "Most scholars now date the demise of Hebrew as a spoken language to the end of the Roman Period, or about 200 CE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language#Jewish_diaspora)" and "Ever since the spoken usage of Mishnaic Hebrew language ended in the 2nd century CE, Hebrew had not been spoken as a mother tongue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_of_the_Hebrew_language#Background)".
The revival of Hebrew language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_of_the_Hebrew_language) is fascinating, as you clearly know. :) It's one of the things I have in mind when I think of the establishment of Modern Standard Matari in the fledgling Republic. I think it supports the ideas that "some languages can endure as ritual and official languages long after they've stopped being used for anything else" and "we have one example of a ritual language being used as the basis for a living language in pretty special--but very intriguing--circumstances". I don't think it says much more than that, hence my earlier comment about Khanid maybe surviving as a ritual language, although I do wonder about what rituals it might have survived in. Something to do with the warrior tradition, maybe?
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Languages, usually, don't vanish over night, much less do they come into existence over the lifetime of a man by natural development. I don't see how and why a 'khanid' dialect of Amarrish should rise within the Kingdom, when this would mean that the King would have to change his tongue for that. Also, the other holders are probably not dieing much faster than him. If there's a 'Khanid' dialect to Amarrish it's probably much older than the foundation of the Kingdom.
On the other hand, the west-slavic languages of the slavic tribes within Germany survived for more than 500 years in the drawehno-polabian dialects, even though in the middle ages there was a concerted effort to eliminate it and even survived to the modern days in the sorbian languages. And we have no reason to assume that the Amarr launched such an attack on the culture of their close allies, the Khanid. The Khanid are valued within the Empire for their distinctive features and they are a big enough group within the Empire to keep their language alive.
It's a fallacy to assume that an Empire needs to work on a single language and will lead to the extermination of all others. Neither does it go that the Scriptures will facilitate the adoption of the Amarrish language: First, the language of the Scripture isn't 'modern' Amarrish (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Scriptures). Second, there is evidence that the Amarr translate at least parts of the Scriptures (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Crate_of_Amarr_Scripture_Educational_Study_Packages_(Matari_translation)) for educational and missionary purposes. One shouldn't be surprised that such translations into the Khanid language would be highly prized within the Khanid community and many others within the Empire. If nowhere else, it would probably have survived there. As I pointed out such missionary efforts usually go hand in hand with avid study of the language in question.
As to the question of the origin (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_Kingdom) of the word "Khanid":
It all began on Amarr Prime in the early days of the Reclaiming, during which the name Khanid was given to the Khanid chiefs by the True Amarr. The moniker means "little lord" or "lordling" and is an affectionate term generally given to a cherished friend. Soon after, the name began to be applied to the nation as a whole, and even after the Khanid domain was raised in status to one of the great Amarr Holder families, the ruling family adopted the Khanid name as their own, winning the hearts of the Khanid people in the process.
PF doesn't say much about the origin of the moniker, just that it was given to the Khanid by the Amarr - one might claim this implies that it originated from the Amarrian language, but it's by no means a necessity.
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There are always a lot of traffic jams here in Tehrān that can be used for wondering about things. So I was wondering, can you think about a people that preserved its “identity” while it lost its language entirely at the same time?
There are many examples of multi-cultural empires in history. The were the pretty much the norm and not the exception in human history. And the Imperial language was not always necessarily the language of the ruling class. Fun fact: While Shah Abbas of Iran was writing his poems in Turkish, his archenemy the Ottoman Sultan was writing his in Persian.
Monolithic national states, however, which have “purified” language and erased other languages as a part of their nation building are a relatively recent phenomenon and it would be eurocentric and chronocentric to suggest that what was the standard in the last two hundred years is the standard in same distant future. (Of course the monopoly of language is connected to a monopoly of power which couldn't be enforced in preindustrial societies. But I imagine that the first stages of space travel and expanse resembled premodern circumstances in terms of control etc.)
When we look at the Khanid they didn’t merge into the Amarr society as much as the Udorians did. There is some pf indicating that nowadays you need to be some connaisseur to distinguish Amarr and Udorians. The Khanid however have racial traits unshared with the Amarr, they are a bloodline in its own right, which could be seen as an indicator that there wasn’t much interracial marriages. And if there wasn’t much “interbreeding” there also must have been reasons for that and this reason reflects on a distinct identity.
I think it is important to distinguish between a.) the Khanid bloodline and the political entity b.) “Khanid Family/Khanid Kingdom”. I the op was exclusively referring to a.).
And I agree with Matariki and Nicoletta. The Khanid were on the forefront for the Reclaiming. I imagine Khanid battalions speaking Khanid.
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And I agree with Matariki and Nicoletta. The Khanid were on the forefront for the Reclaiming. I imagine Khanid battalions speaking Khanid.
Ah, but I think they speak Amarish, perhaps with some battlecries that date from before they were called "Khanid". :)
I interpret the information on Scripture and the Scripture Education pack for use in the Republic differently to Nicoletta, but I'm not going to die in a ditch over it.
Here's a snippet from very early on in EVE lore:
All the major races in EVE speak their own language and all attempts to make one the lingua franca have failed because of stubbornness over accepting any one language as the dominant one. Amarish, the language of the largest empire, is obviously the most common language, especially as most Minmatars also speak the language.
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I'd like to hear your interpretation, then.
Yes, the Matari slaves were educated in Amarrish and their native language seems to have been suppressed, but again, that's not been the case with the Khanid - they weren't enslaved nor was there any need to suppress their culture as they readily accepted the Amarrian religion.
Modern Amarrish helps little while reading the Scriptures, unless one has a translation at hand. Unless the Evelopedia article got it wrong. And I honestly don't see much interpretational leeway in regard to the Amarrians being willing to translate Scriptures into native languages of foreign cultures. It's the cornerstone of peaceful missionary work and the Amarr never ruled it out as a viable and valuable complement to the forceful reclaiming.
And there is strong evidence that the Khanid people converted peacefully. So, it's quite likely that missionaries taught them the religion in Khanid language, I think.
It's kind'a like how the polish people managed to keep their language and culture alive: They converted to Christianity and joined the Christian western nations under the roman catholic church. Their westernmost cousins didn't manage the transition to Christianity like the polish people did, even though their princes tried to go the same way through adoption of Christianity, they failed to build a Christian Obotrite state.
Also, the fact that Amarrish is the official language of the Empire doesn't mean that there aren't other languages spoken. As Odelya pointed out, in the history of human empires it was rather the rule that they were multi-lingual. The Persian Empires, the Roman Empire, the Empire of Alexander the Great, the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, ... actually, I can't think of a single Empire in the history of humankind where all languages but one were eliminated.
Of course the Amarr would insist that their language will be installed as lingua franca regardless of whether there are also other languages spoken within the Empire.
As an ado, I really can't see the Khanid battalions of the time when the Amarr started to conquer Athra speaking anything but Khanid, while they were fighting at the forefront.I think it's not clear whether they still are but I don't see them turning to a foreign language within a few generations, especially when there is no outside pressure to do so.
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Out of curiosity, how do these projects square with PF on translation (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=apr02)?
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Out of curiosity, how do these projects square with PF on translation (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=apr02)?
It takes a lot of effort to make a language fluidly machine-translatable with the efficiency that machine translators seem to have in EVE. The way I see it, automatic translation is reserved for the de facto official languages of the five empires. Some other languages may have partial auto-translation, but they simply aren't popular or important enough to warrant the effort.
For example, in the case of Amarrad and Napanii the languages are old and not in common use. Newer languages have taken the floor and enjoy machine translation. The same would go for a reconstructed or minority Khanid language - it's either a dead tongue rebuilt by scholars and understood by a handful, or it's a minority language - one with no geographical situation either, meaning its users most likely end up having to use Amarish anyway.
That's kinda why we haven't got any major projects to create languages for Amarish, Gallentean, Caldanese or Matari - they're all rendered into English at all times.
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I'd like to hear your interpretation, then.
Okay...
My take on it is that the Amarrian Empire has a language, and that language is Amarish.[1]
Amarrian Scripture has accumulated over the millennia. "[M]any of the earliest books of Scripture appear to have been written directly by the founding prophet" Dano Gheinok (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Dano_Gheinokl) who preached over 15,000 years ago (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Timeline), around the time when the EVE gate closed and the EVE civilisations collapsed. I think it's those very old portions of Scripture that "hearken back to the very origins of Amarr society, written in a tongue so ancient as to be unreadable by today's Amarrians": most likely the ancient ancestor of modern Amarish.[2]
I don't think that all Scripture is written in "Ancient Amarish": I think Scripture is written in whatever version of the language is current when it's written.
The other half of that quotation is: "[t]he collective writings have been maintained and updated throughout the centuries by Imperial Theologians".[3] It's up for discussion how much of that maintenance and updating is selection of texts for inclusion and study, and how much is updating the language of older texts so they communicate their messages correctly. If we assume that the Book of Gheinok (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Scriptures#Gheinok_the_First) is even vaguely contemporary with Dano Gheinok 15,000 years ago it would be one of those ancient-language texts, and yet we have it and use it in a translation that seems to be intelligible even to those without capsuleer translation implants.
I think people in the Khanid kingdom most likely speak Amarish.
The people known as Khanid were "[a]mong the oldest of the bloodlines to be assimilated by the Amarr". According to the histories they were contentedly, and in some cases zealously, part of the Amarrian Empire for around 3000 years. "A large Khanid population" lives in territories which were not part of House Khanid's demesne when Khanid II seceded, and have remained with the Empire. "Today, a large Khanid population remains in Amarr, loyal to the faith and royalty of the Empire. Many of them yearn for the day when the two kingdoms will reunite." To me, a group that was "assimilated" 3000 years ago and distributed through a wider empire most likely speaks the language of that empire.[4]
I think the peaceful missionary approach to conversion is relatively new for Amarr (and possibly not something they're good at yet).
Before encountering the Federation, around 167 years ago, I think Amarr had conquered every culture it encountered.[5] It was sort of "what Amarr did", bringing truth, justice and the Amarrian way, using the sword and the laser. My sense is that they're now exploring the idea of converting people with words rather than with force, but that the idea of making religious instruction manuals in other languages is novel, and possibly seen as a stepping stone to the Real Thing in Amarish. That's just my feel for it, though.
Also, the fact that Amarrish is the official language of the Empire doesn't mean that there aren't other languages spoken. As Odelya pointed out, in the history of human empires it was rather the rule that they were multi-lingual. The Persian Empires, the Roman Empire, the Empire of Alexander the Great, the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, ... actually, I can't think of a single Empire in the history of humankind where all languages but one were eliminated.
Of course the Amarr would insist that their language will be installed as lingua franca regardless of whether there are also other languages spoken within the Empire.
At this point I think we're each asserting our preferences. I think the language of daily life and religion in the Amarrian Empire is most likely to have superseded whatever might have been there beforehand among the people-we-now-call-Khanid who were--note the choice of words--"assimilated" into the Amarrian Empire around 3000 years ago. It sounds like you don't.
We could argue about things like Romance languages and the differences between the areas where vulgar Latin did supplant the previous local language vs the places where it didn't. While that debate might be interesting in its own right[6], I don't think it would tell us much about the Khanid. I've read the PF and I think--okay, I'm pretty sure--that Khanid speak Amarrian. You've read it and you think they speak something else. Only CCP can tell us for certain.
[1] "All the major races in EVE speak their own language [....] Amarish, the language of the largest empire [....]" http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=apr02
[2] "Gheinok appears early in the Scriptures as a preacher and a prophet." http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Dano_Gheinok#History
"While it appears that Dano Gheinok based much of his religious views off an established dogma, many of the earliest books of Scripture appear to have been written directly by him." http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Dano_Gheinok#Religious_Influence
"8000 AD Dano Gheinok proclaims himself prophet and sets the foundations of the Amarr theocracy state to come" http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Timeline (NB: Dano Gheinok may have had a long life, or one of the versions of the history might be reversed or retconned: the timeline (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Timeline) mentions him 72 and 61 years before the collapse of the EVE gate, but his biographical entry (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Dano_Gheinok) describes him as "the first recorded leader of the Amarr people following the collapse of the EVE Gate". It's only 72 or 61 years difference, around 15,000 years ago, so let's shrug about natural long lifespans for Amarr and move on.)
[3] "The collective writings have been maintained and updated throughout the centuries by Imperial Theologians and include texts that hearken back to the very origins of Amarr society, written in a tongue so ancient as to be unreadable by today's Amarrians." http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Scriptures
[4] "Among the oldest of the bloodlines to be assimilated by the Amarr, the Khanid people have endured the political turmoil of their leaders with great dignity and calm. Originally fellow settlers alongside the Amarr on the planet Athra — known today as Amarr Prime — the Khanid were swept up by the nation of Amarr and the powerful message of their faith during the height of the original Reclaiming. For centuries they were exalted members of Amarr society, until a bitter feud between the Empire and an Amarr heir representing the Khanid forced an outright secession of the bloodline's majority, and the subsequent creation of the independent Khanid Kingdom. Today, a large Khanid population remains in Amarr, loyal to the faith and royalty of the Empire. Many of them yearn for the day when the two kingdoms will reunite." http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_%28bloodline%29
"AD 20078 The Reclaiming is launched. The Amarrians start a war to conquer all the lands on Athra [....]
AD 20544 The Amarrians conquer the last state on Athra. They now control the whole planet" http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Timeline
Current date is around AD 23236 (YC 0) + YC 114 = AD 23350.
[5] http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Timeline Fun tip: search in-page for "conquer".
[6]"A group (a state or an ethnicity) can spontaneously adopt a different culture due to its political relevance, or to its perceived superiority. The first is the case of the Latin language and culture, that were gradually adopted by most of the subjugated people." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_assimilation#Cultural_influence
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First, thanks for your interpretation. I think I do largely agree, save for one pretty importnat point:
I think the peaceful missionary approach to conversion is relatively new for Amarr (and possibly not something they're good at yet).
Before encountering the Federation, around 167 years ago, I think Amarr had conquered every culture it encountered.[5] It was sort of "what Amarr did", bringing truth, justice and the Amarrian way, using the sword and the laser. My sense is that they're now exploring the idea of converting people with words rather than with force, but that the idea of making religious instruction manuals in other languages is novel, and possibly seen as a stepping stone to the Real Thing in Amarish. That's just my feel for it, though.
I strongly disagree that PF indicates that the Amarr conquered every culture they encountered and I highly doubt that peacful mission is new for the Amarr. I'm basing this on the evelopedia entrance about the Reclaiming (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Reclaiming):
Origins
The Reclaiming began in 20078 AD, shortly after the Udorians landed on Amarr Island on Athra. The introduction of foreign elements into Amarr society spurred rapid change, leading religious leaders to realize that they must suppress all outside elements, lest their power would be broken by the more open Udorian culture. [1]
Branding other cultures and religions heretical and in defiance to God's grace, the Amarr launched the Reclaiming. Though the young Amarr Empire had less population and resources than the rich, influential Udorians, they were unified by religious fervor. The Udorians, meanwhile, existed in a variety of fractured states, many of whom distrusted each other significantly.
Khanid encounter
An early turning point in the Reclaiming came when the Amarr first encountered the Khanid people. Militant, sturdy, and bearing a long-burning dislike of the more advanced Udorians, the Khanid jumped at the chance to join in the conquest. They also proved eager religious zealots, quickly converting to the Amarr religion and the promise of glory in God's service. [2]
With the assistance of the Khanid, the Amarr methodically conquered and enslaved the disparate Udorian states. By 20371 AD, the Udorians had been completely subsumed, leaving the Amarr to turn on the other, forgotten cultures of Athra. It took less than 200 years to finish their conquest of the planet, which the Amarr later renamed Amarr Prime. [1]
So, it seems to me that while the Udorians were less centralized, they still had the advantage of numbers. The Amarr countered this not only with centralization, but by allying themselves with the people who had the Udorians as common enemies: the Khanid. Only with their assistance the Amarr conquered and enslaved the Udorians. Also, the Khanids did, according to the source, convert eagerly to the Amarrian religion. I think that implies that they did so willingly and that the Amarr proselytized peacfully in their regard. After all, they were dependent to a certain degree on the Khanid in their war against the Udorians and would certainly have had little luck with doing so, if they'd have been at war with the Khanid as well.
This means that the Khanid people were not conquered by the Amarr and that the first foreign culture that joined them did so, in fact, peacefully. This, coupled with the fact that the Khanid embrace their warrior traditions and they are an independend bloodline leads me to the conclusion that, while they have been assimilated religiously and politically, they kept their other traditions. (Though I think that most of them do in fact speak Amarish as well as Khanid.)
Still, you are probably right that it's a question of preference whether or not one is speaking for or against the Khanid still having a distinct language at their disposal.
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When it comes to the Reclaiming on Athra there was a mix of word and sword:
Around 16450 AD, Amash-Akura began a war of conquest against his neighbors. He won several early victories, crushing several lesser warlords and taking their cities for his own. In each city, he installed members of the clergy as its rulers, allowed his soldiers a few weeks of rest and recruited new followers, then moved on to the next battle. Within five years, he had full control of the central area of Amarr Island, controlling the majority of roads and thus trade among the Amarr.
The decisive victories and charismatic nature of Amash-Akura won him many willing followers. The church especially favored him, once he had proven his military acumen, and put their full support behind his conquest. Upon hearing of the church's decree, the warlord of the city-state Iphria declared his fealty to Amash-Akura.
From that point on, Amash-Akura changed his strategy to one that came to be known as “the light or the flame.” He would send messengers to the rulers of a city-state, promising to allow them to remain in power should they submit to him and follow his laws. If they refused, he would march his army to the city, besiege it, and offer the enemy soldiers their lives if they surrendered and turned over their masters. Should this too fail, Amash-Akura would sack the city and kill every soldier and their leaders, while sparing those who had not raised arms against him.
While many rulers attempted to hold out, many more willingly surrendered to Amash-Akura. By 16470 AD, the last opposition on the island was crushed and Amash-Akura ruled unchallenged. (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amash-Akura)
While assimilation is a strong term describing integration to a culture, it doesn't necessarily equal equation. So I agree with Nicoletta in this regard. But the Khanid are exceptional in this regard. Its definitely a question of preference—and Odelya speaks Khanid ;-) But of course she also speaks Amarrish.
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Found some more info about how the Khanid came to join the Empire and the pivotal role of the Khanid family (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_Family#Early_Years) in this:
The Khanid Family, then known by a different name, was originally a noble house on Amarr Island during the early years of the Reclaiming. The family was instrumental in bringing the Khanid people to the side of the Amarr. The head of the family acted as a diplomat to the scattered tribes, uniting them against their common foes the Udorians.
The assistance of the Khanid people was a major boon to the Empire, giving them the martial prowess to assault the Udorians relentlessly. For their aide in bringing the Khanid to the Empire's side, the Emperor made the Family the stewards of the Khanid lands and people. In a sense, the Khanid people forced the Empire's hand, as they remained warlike and difficult to control.
(emphasis added by me)