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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Sanguina on 14 Nov 2011, 22:42
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I've always approached the Sani Sabik as a religion. Some people approach it other ways, like a philosophy, but to me that seems to cheapen it. It would be like someone calling themselves a Christian but the only element of that is they treat others how they wished to be treated. In my course of creating Sanguina I read all the PF associated with the Blood Raiders/Sani Sabik (not much) and extrapolated from there. It's very, very vague, but the one thing that it says the sects have in common is the use of blood.
From here we have to extrapolate a few things from the PF. Firstly, we know that the Amarrians were some form of Catholic. Note this is stated by CCP, you could not tell that just by looking at the in game depiction of them, or the scriptures. One of the central tenants of that faith is that the blood of Jesus, having all sorts of properties that I will not get into here, redeems the sins of everyone. Now, fast forward about ten thousand years and a few rises and falls of civilization. Strip away most of the religion around it to the following beliefs. Firstly, we are all imperfect (this is self evident to anyone). And, most importantly, that there is a paradise, but the cost is blood. It's not too much of a stretch to see this.
Now, obviously this is a rather high price to pay, if you are the one paying it. The best solution is to find others and make them pay it for you. So you wind up with this Darwinian religion, wherein the strong take from the weak for their redemption. Since civilization was in the dark ages, it's easy to see where this mindset comes from.
Now, a few words about Sanguina. She's not evil. It's too easy to portray the Sani Sabik as blood crazed lunatics (coughs and looks a bit embarrassed). But we're not going there tonight. Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of the founder of the terrorist group Hamas, renounced his father's actions and converted to Christianity and spied on Hamas for the Israelis. Sometime after moving to the US he gave a statement along the lines of (paraphrased), 'my father is not an evil man, he just fallows an evil god.' We're not getting into that debate tonight either. The point is that Sanguina is calm, loves her daughter, has fun and, oh yeah, kills children. She does the latter because she truly believes that it is the only way she can be saved and get to paradise. I would reason that many of the Sani Sabik also feel the same way. Not that there are not blood crazed lunatics in the Sani Sabik, but most are probably as balanced as any other person in New Eden.
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The "burning life" novel had a blood raider as its main protagonist, and tried to show their more 'nice' side.
I think the Sabik have a huge range of followers though, from secular cults of personal empowerment to full-on "blood for the blood god" bloodletting harems.
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I've always thought of the Sani Sabik as your classic satanists. Right down to the central philosophy of personal empowerment (at the expense of anyone else you deal with).
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After poking a bit into the story regarding The Apocryphon (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Apocryphon) it has occurred to me that maybe the reason why the Amarr condemn the writings is because they proclaim that all life is equal in the eyes of God. Such a message goes straight against the justification for the Reclaimings (that the true Amarr are Gods chosen people) and could cause havoc in the Amarrian theology.
This also means that Sani Sabik is all about compassion and respect for your fellow man no matter his origins. The Blood Raiders interpretation of this appears very contradictory but I actually think the Burning Life tries to show the Raiders as a people with a lot of compassion. They certainly not appear to be portrayed as being taught up to be self-centered egomaniacs.
Yes, I know this also strides against many players initial perception of the Raiders but for a good sci-fi story I hope I am correct. Besides, being a self-centered bastard is a trait among many Amarrain Holders so why would the Sani Sabik be expelled if that was their only wrongdoing?
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I like the interpretation of the Sabik as sort of a dark mirror for the rest of the Amarrians. The way they will end up if they don't curb their natural tendencies and proclivities, and let their more base instincts take over.
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After poking a bit into the story regarding The Apocryphon (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Apocryphon) it has occurred to me that maybe the reason why the Amarr condemn the writings is because they proclaim that all life is equal in the eyes of God. Such a message goes straight against the justification for the Reclaimings (that the true Amarr are Gods chosen people) and could cause havoc in the Amarrian theology.
This also means that Sani Sabik is all about compassion and respect for your fellow man no matter his origins. The Blood Raiders interpretation of this appears very contradictory but I actually think the Burning Life tries to show the Raiders as a people with a lot of compassion. They certainly not appear to be portrayed as being taught up to be self-centered egomaniacs.
Yes, I know this also strides against many players initial perception of the Raiders but for a good sci-fi story I hope I am correct. Besides, being a self-centered bastard is a trait among many Amarrain Holders so why would the Sani Sabik be expelled if that was their only wrongdoing?
To me a big part of the Sani Sabik is that they are a classic example of an esoteric school within an otherwise exoteric religion, like the gnostics of Christianity, the sufis of Islam, etc. They do indeed preach that the mystical reality of God is available to anyone in equal measure.
In most religions, that tends to lead to ideals of harmony and benevolence, but it isn't all that difficult to see how that could indeed became a vessel for a darker form of self-empowerement ("men are gods unto themselves").
More importantly, such a belief eschews the idea of a strict religious hierarchy. A state or a priesthood is no longer necessary for true spiritual life. It is up to to individual cultivation. And that is what the Empire can never accept.
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While it is important to note that Sani Sabik traditions vary incredibly widely, one of the core tenets (probably held by most "true" Sabik and not the fad-ified Gallentean mutations) is that "some people were born for greatness and other people only lived to feed and breed these geniuses" according to the evelopedia article (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sani_Sabik) on the subject.
Ironically, this is one of the things that made it so appealing to the Holdersand their incredibly hierarchical way of life at first - it reinforced their ideas of a God-given right to rule by birth alone.
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Sani Sabik in Delve according to TBL do not eschew religious authority they defer to it. Infact their 'priests' are not only religious authority they are also police, gestapo and inquisitors. The Bleeders, as they are called, have pretty huge sway over the populace and have considerable power in the society. They can have your name erased from the Book of Names ( thus declaring you never existed etc...) given enough cause to do so. While I've noticed people make constant efforts to create sort of a gap between Blood Raiders and Sani Sabik, Blood Raiders are the militant wing of the Covenant according to TBL. Their duties ranging from protection of the colonies and worlds to harvest poor schmucks to what ever needs and ends they need them. So, while not all Sani Sabik are Blood Raiders, all Blood Raiders are Sani Sabik. This is all what you can gather from the Blood Raider Covenant faction on the first few chapters of the TBL.
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Check out also this (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=372.0) and this (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=369.0) thread if you haven't already.
A couple of more points:
The evelopedia (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sani_Sabik) article is clearly written from the mainstream Amarr perspective, it intends to vilify the Sani Sabik followers and doesn't give any plausible the motivation for the cult ("some people were born for greatness and other people only lived to feed and breed these geniuses" yeah right.) The players have been using the following arguments to flesh out the cult.
In the Amarr Empire, every aspect of life is conducted in a blessworthy way, as dictated by the Scriptures. In this kind of socially demanding, even oppressive environment, there must be people who find it difficult to adapt and instead seek relief behind closed doors. As described by "God and his Beast" (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=16-06-08), Sani Sabik orgies could be seen to break every taboo in existence, and offer a break times ten from the norms of the mainstream society.
According to Apocryphon, (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Apocryphon) the salvation is based on faith alone, so Sani Sabik theology is basically challenging the traditional tenets of the Amarr society where one's position in the all-pervading hierarchy is based on the ancestry and on the family one is loyal to. The raiding can also be seen as a Robin Hood act - redistribution of wealth is another commandment of the Apocryphon (the last line again). No wonder the conservative mainstream conformists are so eager to portray them as evil.
The cult is also extremely old, and many details are likely to be lost in time. Perhaps they were originally only known to the highest clergy of the whole organization. The resources of the Arek'jaalan (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Arek'Jaalan:_Ancient_Races) project might be useful in doing research on origins of the cult as a secret society among the liberal Takmahl elite of ancient times.
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Sani Sabik in Delve according to TBL do not eschew religious authority they defer to it. Infact their 'priests' are not only religious authority they are also police, gestapo and inquisitors. The Bleeders, as they are called, have pretty huge sway over the populace and have considerable power in the society. They can have your name erased from the Book of Names ( thus declaring you never existed etc...) given enough cause to do so. While I've noticed people make constant efforts to create sort of a gap between Blood Raiders and Sani Sabik, Blood Raiders are the militant wing of the Covenant according to TBL. Their duties ranging from protection of the colonies and worlds to harvest poor schmucks to what ever needs and ends they need them. So, while not all Sani Sabik are Blood Raiders, all Blood Raiders are Sani Sabik. This is all what you can gather from the Blood Raider Covenant faction on the first few chapters of the TBL.
This, pretty much.
:)
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The evelopedia (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sani_Sabik) article is clearly written from the mainstream Amarr perspective, it intends to vilify the Sani Sabik followers and doesn't give any plausible the motivation for the cult ("some people were born for greatness and other people only lived to feed and breed these geniuses" yeah right.)
...erm, what?
There's a tag on EVElopedia for things that are written from an IC perspective. The article on Sani Sabik does not have it.
For that matter, there are quite a few examples of other cults/religions/political groups/whatever that believe that the majority live to serve the few. It's not out of the realm of possible at all.
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origins and current existence could be different, and in my opinion are.
Origin was a cult that said "some are leaders, the rest serve" and similar, and that's fine for a secret organisation within the Empire, inducting new members from the populace and so on.
but, the Sani Sabik, as living in Delve and other places, are no longer within the Empire. They have a civilian population, and a religion which says some are leaders and the rest serve, I don't see working with a population.
Because of stuff like, a Sani Sabik woman has children, which through quirk of genetics, aren't geniuses. That's going to be A Problem, for a religion's own population.
It's not a problem as such, if the woman is in a secret organisation that draws membership from other sources, like the first Sani sabiks. But when the organisation draws its membership from descendants of members, then there's going to be drama and problems when the inevitable happens. "no child of mine is going to be a slave!" says teh powerful sani sabik matriarch, killing everyone who disagrees, etc.etc.
Which could set up an interesting Delve/Empire Sani Sabik difference of opinions and thus rp opportunities and so forth, no?
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I think when it comes down to it there is probably little practical differences between the higher-ups in Amarrian nobility and the higher-ups in professed Sabik groups.
We've been shown many times in the PF that a good number of the Amarrian aristocracy / elite are conniving opportunists solely interested in increasing their influence and power base, using any means necessary, with the 'religion' as it were just a public veneer. This is not to discount the billions of faithful Imperials, etc, but I think there are many interesting shades of grey and blurred boundaries at the top.
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There's a tag on EVElopedia for things that are written from an IC perspective. The article on Sani Sabik does not have it.
Lack of admitted bias =/= lack of bias. ;)
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There's a tag on EVElopedia for things that are written from an IC perspective. The article on Sani Sabik does not have it.
A lot of the material in the EVElopedia has been pasted together from the conventional sources. I don't know how much original content gets released through it. That's why I was suggesting it can and probably does contain the biases of the original sources.
When it comes to the article itself, basically what Louella said. Separating the origins and the current existence would solve the problem.
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There's a tag on EVElopedia for things that are written from an IC perspective. The article on Sani Sabik does not have it.
Lack of admitted bias =/= lack of bias. ;)
True.
But having read it again I'm not seeing this being writtent from a mainstream imperial view. Would they write "Each of the different sects of the Sani Sabik cult vary in their rituals and doctrine, some are inoffensive and almost inactive...."? By definition any heretical cult is anything but inoffensive to a mainstream Amarrian.
I can see playing a Sani Sabik cultist as some sort of egalitarian mystic with views that are demonised inside the empire. But the Blood Raiders are something else entirely. They are demonised because they behave in a diabolic manner. At least to outsiders. And to insiders that are out of favour with the heirarchy.
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Blood Raiders are one sect of the Sani Sabik faith.
I had an old character (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amann_Karris_(Character)) that was a Sani Sabik of the non-Blood Raider (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1291399) type. I wrote some fiction (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=469526) too. I'm far from an expert on matters of the fictional faiths of EVE Online, so what I have to say is probably best taken with a grain of salt:
Every faith has various interpretations depending on who is interpreting it. No two Blood Raiders will have exactly the same beliefs, just as no two sects of the Sani Sabik will have exactly the same tenets. There are certain commonalities, I'm sure, but it's a big enough Cluster of Stars, with plenty of billions of people to believe what they want. Pick some inspiration and run with it. ;) I still fear the day that a "sparkling" Blood Raider appears. :shiver:
[spoiler]As Silas said, TBL has a good example of such diversity. I wouldn't say that the main character is a nice Blood Raider/Sani Sabik. He sure as hell used whoever he could to achieve his ends. I would even find it hard to classify him as Blood/Sabik other than that is the faith he was raised in. The faith obviously gave him the drive to succeed, to forge his own path. That is always how I have seen the "Nice" side of the Sani Sabik faith.
On the other hand, there was a good deal of explanation of why the Blood Raiders are as they are, and enough fuel for the "they're evil horrible blood-drinking pillagers" perspective... but that's all it is. A single perspective on a unique and vibrant culture full of nuance and shading and colors other than simply "red". :D
Aso, don't forget that the main character did all he did not only for his dead brother, but his family, his blood. :bear:[/spoiler]
Just my two cents. :D
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Blood Raiders are one sect of the Sani Sabik faith.
I had an old character (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amann_Karris_(Character)) that was a Sani Sabik of the non-Blood Raider (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1291399) type. I wrote some fiction (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=469526) too. I'm far from an expert on matters of the fictional faiths of EVE Online, so what I have to say is probably best taken with a grain of salt:
Every faith has various interpretations depending on who is interpreting it. No two Blood Raiders will have exactly the same beliefs, just as no two sects of the Sani Sabik will have exactly the same tenets. There are certain commonalities, I'm sure, but it's a big enough Cluster of Stars, with plenty of billions of people to believe what they want. Pick some inspiration and run with it. ;) I still fear the day that a "sparkling" Blood Raider appears. :shiver:
[spoiler]As Silas said, TBL has a good example of such diversity. I wouldn't say that the main character is a nice Blood Raider/Sani Sabik. He sure as hell used whoever he could to achieve his ends. I would even find it hard to classify him as Blood/Sabik other than that is the faith he was raised in. The faith obviously gave him the drive to succeed, to forge his own path. That is always how I have seen the "Nice" side of the Sani Sabik faith.
On the other hand, there was a good deal of explanation of why the Blood Raiders are as they are, and enough fuel for the "they're evil horrible blood-drinking pillagers" perspective... but that's all it is. A single perspective on a unique and vibrant culture full of nuance and shading and colors other than simply "red". :D
Aso, don't forget that the main character did all he did not only for his dead brother, but his family, his blood. :bear:[/spoiler]
Just my two cents. :D
I hope they aren't -too- sparkly, as I don't think that would be very scary to the New Eden population :D
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Sani Sabik in Delve according to TBL do not eschew religious authority they defer to it. Infact their 'priests' are not only religious authority they are also police, gestapo and inquisitors. The Bleeders, as they are called, have pretty huge sway over the populace and have considerable power in the society. They can have your name erased from the Book of Names ( thus declaring you never existed etc...) given enough cause to do so. While I've noticed people make constant efforts to create sort of a gap between Blood Raiders and Sani Sabik, Blood Raiders are the militant wing of the Covenant according to TBL. Their duties ranging from protection of the colonies and worlds to harvest poor schmucks to what ever needs and ends they need them. So, while not all Sani Sabik are Blood Raiders, all Blood Raiders are Sani Sabik. This is all what you can gather from the Blood Raider Covenant faction on the first few chapters of the TBL.
I hadn't read TBL and if that's the case... well, I rescind my earlier interpretation re: Sani Sabik. Case closed, then.
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Very little of the actual religion itself is discussed in TBL. It's more the day-to-day lives of the Sani Sabik and the Raiders.
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Very little of the actual religion itself is discussed in TBL. It's more the day-to-day lives of the Sani Sabik and the Raiders.
Additionally that entire novel was about the 'regular' people in New Eden, and only tangentially featured any capsuleers. We haven't really had any PF look at the inner-sanctum sorts of details for many of the factions. More room for us to imagine :)
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I think it's probably safe to say that there is no 'one true' take on the Sani Sabik. My instinct, however, based on the various semi-contradictory things mentioned here, is that at least some use blood as a symbol of control and power. Blood is life, after all - the taking of life from another, and the voluntary giving of your own, are both pretty binding concepts.
'Everyone is equal', 'some are meant to rule and others serve', 'blood is power' - put those together, and you have a system based on merit rather than (as in the core Amarrian faith) ancestry. At its most primitive level, that's raw Darwin; the strong take the lives of the weak or accept their tribute, taking that lifeforce to purify and raise themselves higher. In a more 'civilised' setting, that shifts into the idea of political and mental power. A Sabik might believe that a gifted individual has the right to the blood of others, and base their relationship on that.
Which brings an interesting take to the Blood Raiders, with their obsession with clones; cloning technology (correct me if I'm wrong) is pretty much the domain of the rich and powerful - notably and obviously the capsuleers. So on that basis, their blood must be full of powerful life, and thus highly desirable to claim for yourself.
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I personally think the importance of the Sani Sabik is overemphasized amongst players in ratio to its significance in PF. You had some news stories about them (excl. Blood Raiders) and that's about it.
What I mean is, is that I'm not entirely sure if CCP will expand on it that much...v0v
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I personally think the importance of the Sani Sabik is overemphasized amongst players in ratio to its significance in PF. You had some news stories about them (excl. Blood Raiders) and that's about it.
What I mean is, is that I'm not entirely sure if CCP will expand on it that much...v0v
At least until Khanid finally shuts down the Theology Council and we all get to read what's reeealy in the secret archives from before the Moral Reforms :)
..."Heideran's recipe for country fried fedo...Heresy!"
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I personally think the importance of the Sani Sabik is overemphasized amongst players in ratio to its significance in PF. You had some news stories about them (excl. Blood Raiders) and that's about it.
What I mean is, is that I'm not entirely sure if CCP will expand on it that much...v0v
They are like space jews :ugh:
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I personally think the importance of the Sani Sabik is overemphasized amongst players in ratio to its significance in PF. You had some news stories about them (excl. Blood Raiders) and that's about it.
What I mean is, is that I'm not entirely sure if CCP will expand on it that much...v0v
It is because of the 'cool rebel' factor.
Just like all the pirate factions.
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I personally think the importance of the Sani Sabik is overemphasized amongst players in ratio to its significance in PF. You had some news stories about them (excl. Blood Raiders) and that's about it.
What I mean is, is that I'm not entirely sure if CCP will expand on it that much...v0v
Do players generally choose to RP a particular faction because it's significant in PF or because it has elements they personally find interesting? I think many players enjoy the fact that CCP has left us plenty of freedom for character development and world building. Figuring out all the small details that make a character plausible can be part of the fun and I wouldn't really call it as overemphasis or anything.
It is because of the 'cool rebel' factor.
They also have the 'emo goth', 'lolita' and 'teen werewolf' factors.
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I dunno. I play an Imperial for the "i get to be a racist slaver without being guilty" factor.
All kidding aside, I enjoy the background and identity that the Blood Raiders (and Sani Sabik) are in the EVE lore, as it adds a nice counterpoint to the Amarr and their Darwinist barbarism is both inspiring and shocking at the same time. I think there's a tendency to negate their influence as they are just npcs, but I like to think they still inspire some fear in people and capsuleers alike.