Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Louella Dougans on 29 Oct 2014, 12:04
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http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/CSM9Summer_Minutes_2014.pdf
of immediate interest to RP people:
possibilities of:
More clothes
Race change certificates
Gender change certificates
Name change certificates
Hats
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Name change certificates is an absolutely horrid idea. Terrible. If that is implemented, someone at CCP should be fired and publicly shamed.
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Name change certificates is an absolutely horrid idea. Terrible. If that is implemented, someone at CCP should be fired and publicly shamed.
it does say that name changes would retain history, and a search for either name would find the character.
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Name change certificates is an absolutely horrid idea. Terrible. If that is implemented, someone at CCP should be fired and publicly shamed.
it does say that name changes would retain history, and a search for either name would find the character.
I personally support the immediate, blatant, and instinctual reaction you get with recognizing names. It triggers the immediate need to actually look at their history or ask about them. Continual changing of names will put a much heavier load on others to figure out who everyone is - and this game already has a heavy burden in that area.
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I don't know. I was always a 'live with the consequences' kind of guy, but if it was linked to your old name as well I'm not sure I would have any huge objection. Particularly if it was limited to every 6 months, year, or even 1 time. Particularly if it was just 1 time.
As far as clothes, that is always nice - though I'd also like to see the (probably way more difficult to implement) different heights and body types. Of course, I'd also like to see what's outside the door some day. :(
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Yes, I would probably flail less if it was a one-time change. But I'd still be sore about it.
Clothes are \o/ but hairstyles are the most important in my list of customization priorities. A combination of new and fixing the one we have that are just awful.
Also, I want a ship shaped like a unicorn with glitter engine trails. And rainbow lasers. And cotton candy torpedoes. And...
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Well, it would be a nice feature for people who made poor naming decisions - I would also say they should have a record of old names in 'show info' for clarity. So you click on someone and can immediately see the old name(s) too.
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one of the usages they mentioned, was that if you allow gender changing, you require a name change as well.
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Yeah, the only people I have sympathy for are the ones that created their character during a drinking binge and named it 'BuTshecks4LyFe'. But I can't get over the 'handle your consequences' approach.
But things like a gender change? They better write new PF making that realistic. A lot of it. With scientific World News, development, execution. Everything.
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Yeah, the only people I have sympathy for are the ones that created their character during a drinking binge and named it 'BuTshecks4LyFe'. But I can't get over the 'handle your consequences' approach.
But things like a gender change? They better write new PF making that realistic. A lot of it. With scientific World News, development, execution. Everything.
Roleplaying a post op trans man or woman. Sounds interesting!
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Given cloning tech, and presumably the state of medical science in general, the gender change seems like it would actually be less difficult than the legal hoops that would presumably be required for a name change.
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Given cloning tech, and presumably the state of medical science in general, the gender change seems like it would actually be less difficult than the legal hoops that would presumably be required for a name change.
With the lore mentions of dysphoria and other things that go along with a major clone change, it seems like it should require extra explanation unless the character was actually trans.
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...possibilities of:
Race change certificates
Name change certificates
Hoping 'possibilities' was stressed heavily in this conversation. Consider me biomassed if these go live.
Other than that, still digging into the veteran retention section which is pretty meaty for a non-vet.
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I was quite intrigued by the ammount of discussion regarding PvE content....escalations, COSMOS, missions, Standings, etc.
I think missions and standings in general need to be reviewed throughly.....but not sure the path they have been discussing is the appropiate one.
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Given cloning tech, and presumably the state of medical science in general, the gender change seems like it would actually be less difficult than the legal hoops that would presumably be required for a name change.
With the lore mentions of dysphoria and other things that go along with a major clone change, it seems like it should require extra explanation unless the character was actually trans.
Clone tech advances, surgery after clone has been created? PF can change over time. Don't see why people are getting butthurt over such additions.
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I see zero issue with gender-swapping certs, not even lorewise. Our clones are sculpted from human cadavers, among other things - they're not just grown in vats. For a society that is capable of these things, I have serious doubts that the ability to make a clone of someone that is effectively them, just with a swapped chromosome, is exceedingly difficult. Obviously some funky genetic engineering and biology work would be necessary to make it viable - you can't just go swapping an X and a Y chromosome blindly - but I really don't see that as being outside the realm of possibility, either technologically or economically, for capsuleers at least. Speaking in terms of game mechanics though, gender in EVE as far as our characters go matters in like, three places that I can think of: sculpting meshes, available/usable clothing, and for roleplayers. I'm not even really sure that this should require a certificate/purchase, but then again I don't really see the point in swapping back and forth every other day so maybe that's just me.
Race changes I am very, very iffy on. Again, much like gender, this is something that after a certain amount of time has little to zero relevance to anything except sculpting meshes, available default clothing items and hair styles, and roleplayers. Because it seems less of a super-personal attribute, I personally don't see the point to having these yet, but if CCP ever got around to adding the race-blending features to the character creator that were talked about once upon a time, I would definitely consider supporting it.
I can see a number of possible issues with name-swapping certificates, some potentially major, most minor. I'd be OK with this under certain specific circumstances - like having it attached to a gender-swapping cert to be used during the swap or sometime after. Name changes should largely be kept out otherwise, imo - save the obvious cases of abusive/inappropriate names or the occasional one-off "okay I really fucked up on this" that I feel should have to go through the GMs as is the current policy afaik.
Hats/clothes... obvious yes.
There was also a mention about people complaining that the old pirate log items were no longer in the loot drop tables. Hopefully that means they'll get updated and re-added at some point.
Standings: I don't like standings decay as a concept. I also don't really like removing them as a gateway to higher-level missions - I would prefer to lower the bar instead (current values are 1.0 for L2, 3.0 for L3, 5.0 for L4, fuck knows for L5) and just make it require less work. I want standings to become visible again - as an optional thing. Add a thing to our character sheets that lets us mark factions and corporations to show off our standings for.
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But things like a gender change? They better write new PF making that realistic. A lot of it. With scientific World News, development, execution. Everything.
Race and gender changing are already described in Source as possible.
Also, no, it doesn't really require a huge amount of science articles. It's possible IRL already, if slow.
As for dysphoria issues, I don't think that'd exist much, because with such an easy way of changing there is no permanent and unalterable change, thus giving people the freedom to explore without lasting commitment. Dysphoria is principally being stuck as something you're not, forced to forever live life as a gender you aren't. But for capsuleers, where changing bodies "is like changing clothes", I don't think dysphoria would cause too much issue. Afterall, one would expect that it would primarily only be those who already have dysphoria who would change, or those who are androgyne (don't classify into the typical gender roles. Pangender, gender fluid, etc). One would expect that the people who are bothered by such a thing so as to develop a severe dysphoria simply would be the ones who don't do the change, or regret the change and immediately change back.
In other words, there's really no issue with this at all.
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But things like a gender change? They better write new PF making that realistic. A lot of it. With scientific World News, development, execution. Everything.
Race and gender changing are already described in Source as possible.
Also, no, it doesn't really require a huge amount of science articles. It's possible IRL already, if slow.
As for dysphoria issues, I don't think that'd exist much, because with such an easy way of changing there is no permanent and unalterable change, thus giving people the freedom to explore without lasting commitment. Dysphoria is principally being stuck as something you're not, forced to forever live life as a gender you aren't. But for capsuleers, where changing bodies "is like changing clothes", I don't think dysphoria would cause too much issue. Afterall, one would expect that it would primarily only be those who already have dysphoria who would change, or those who are androgyne (don't classify into the typical gender roles. Pangender, gender fluid, etc). One would expect that the people who are bothered by such a thing so as to develop a severe dysphoria simply would be the ones who don't do the change, or regret the change and immediately change back.
In other words, there's really no issue with this at all.
I'll have to do a search in the PF for the mentions of dysphoria. It is in there, somewhere. But note that I do mention that I don't see that as being an IC issue for trans* folks - because in a sense, the change would be solving a form of dysphoria. It is the rapid changes for other reasons that seems like it would throw out the previous PF that mentions dysphoria. I'll have to find it. Perhaps I am remembering it being mentioned more than it actually is.
At any rate, I agree with the notion that labeling the issue the lore discusses as 'dysphoria' was an unfortunate choice of terminology given the connotations.
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See my post in the other thread, seeing as this topic has apparently split across two different threads.
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See my post in the other thread, seeing as this topic has apparently split across two different threads.
Yeah, I responded and agreed.
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Standings decay ? All that work for naugh'... o_O
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Standings decay ? All that work for naugh'... o_O
I actually like the idea of it having to be maintained. It makes little sense to me that someone should be able to grind it and keep it for years. What entity doesn't ask "what have you done for me lately?"
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Over the course of years, maybe. But in order for it to be a meaningful mechanic it would have to be an unrealistically fast rate of decay along the lines of "you didn't run a mission for us last week, so screw you, you traitor."
There are not enough benefits to high standings to merit continual work to keep them high, though. Having high standings with a station used to be good for 3 things - jump clones, taxes and refining rates. Refining rates are not worth mentioning anymore with the nerf, and taxes have always been negligible unless you're a fancypants market tycoon who's funneling ISK around in extremely large amounts, so that really just leaves jump clones - and those are an occasional one-off thing, too, since you only need the standings to install them, not use them. Once they're created your standings are no longer relevant.
Add substantial, tangible benefits to having high standings, and then decay might make sense as far as gameplay goes.
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But, but, the trader tears. Oh they would be sweet.
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Wait, what? Standings decay?
Fuck. That. Noise.
I worked damn hard on getting the standings to squeeze out the best margins in Jita with the expectation that it was something I had to do once and be finished, much like skilling up etc. My industrialist is an industrialist, not a fucking mission runner. And what about inactivity? "lol, you didn't log in other than skillqueueing for a while, so fuck you and the ship you rode in on".
Horseshit. "What have you done for me lately?" other than paying fuck knows how much in taxes in any given week?
@Jace Go grind the standings in courier missions for tradehub corps and come talk to me again.
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You say this like I don't spend 10 hours in a day running distribution missions for standings.
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Name change please! Finally a change that I want.
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Fuck standings decay. Fuck it. Just no.
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Ditto Samira. At least if they do this make the decay to corp only. Grinding pirate faction standing is a bitch and a half!
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capitals in highsec.
lol
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Also, it sounds like standings would decay negatively, but not positively (i.e., your standings would never slowly tick up if you stopped shooting a given faction for a while).
The only way I can see this working is if there were some fairly heavy restrictions on how the decay worked. For instance:
- A hard cap on how far the decay goes. You might decay down to +5, but never below +5.
- A very long timer before the decay begins; for instance, completing a mission every few months would be enough to prevent decay beginning.
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These are certainly interesting approaches to veteran retention.
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Summary of other bits that might be of interest to us:
- CCP is looking into ways to make escalations more interesting.
- Escalation rate from a given combat site is low, 2-4%
- Between that low rate and a number of escalations that are completely broken, CCP considers a lot of the escalations to be "hidden content" and wants to change this. They want to do this and reveal "hidden content" before making new content.
- COSMOS missions are being looked at for a reworking down the line. On an RP note, this this might mean finally updating some of the funkier COSMOS missions to match current PF.
- The system which renders portraits is broken for agents and NPCs, forcing new agent creation to be a labor- and time-consuming process. This is "almost fixed". Not mentioned in the notes, but this is a big part of why NPCs continue to languish in outdated positions (e.g., Karin Midular) - it's difficult at the moment to create new ones to replace them.
- CSM delegates suggest updating mission and fluff text to remove out-of-date inconsistencies. CCP responds that they try, but there is only one writer at CCP "to keep up with everything" (not named, but possibly Abraxas).
- Populating mission and complex pockets is done via the POS-creation tool. For those of us who have set up a POS, let us shed a tear for the poor devs who get this job. They are looking for ways to streamline this process, although they acknowledge it means that there are no two missions in the game with identical environments. NPC creation takes the longest time - 4-5 days per NPC. This is the limiting factor on the creation of new missions.
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Yeah, the only people I have sympathy for are the ones that created their character during a drinking binge and named it 'BuTshecks4LyFe'. But I can't get over the 'handle your consequences' approach.
But things like a gender change? They better write new PF making that realistic. A lot of it. With scientific World News, development, execution. Everything.
As someone who is trans in the real world, right now, it is plenty realistic already. I've also played transgender characters in the past, so I think this is a pretty neat addition to the world. Its great if someone say, started playing EVE, made a male character, then came out as trans and wanted to have a female character to match their identity. It means they wouldn't have to completely reroll. I can only see this as a good thing.
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- Populating mission and complex pockets is done via the POS-creation tool. For those of us who have set up a POS, let us shed a tear for the poor devs who get this job. They are looking for ways to streamline this process, although they acknowledge it means that there are no two missions in the game with identical environments. NPC creation takes the longest time - 4-5 days per NPC. This is the limiting factor on the creation of new missions.
That's just embarrassing.
Although it's enough to make me feel some sympathy.
Some.
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Yeah, the only people I have sympathy for are the ones that created their character during a drinking binge and named it 'BuTshecks4LyFe'. But I can't get over the 'handle your consequences' approach.
But things like a gender change? They better write new PF making that realistic. A lot of it. With scientific World News, development, execution. Everything.
As someone who is trans in the real world, right now, it is plenty realistic already. I've also played transgender characters in the past, so I think this is a pretty neat addition to the world. Its great if someone say, started playing EVE, made a male character, then came out as trans and wanted to have a female character to match their identity. It means they wouldn't have to completely reroll. I can only see this as a good thing.
I think you missed my other posts. I agree with everything you just said. What I have said elsewhere, further explaining my position, is that CCP misused the term 'dysphoria' in their fiction and that needs to be handled (or as others pointed out, simply retconned/ignored). They used it in some circumstances as a way to describe mental issues that can happen with drastic clone changes and ignored what the term actually means in real life.
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Yeah, the only people I have sympathy for are the ones that created their character during a drinking binge and named it 'BuTshecks4LyFe'. But I can't get over the 'handle your consequences' approach.
But things like a gender change? They better write new PF making that realistic. A lot of it. With scientific World News, development, execution. Everything.
As someone who is trans in the real world, right now, it is plenty realistic already. I've also played transgender characters in the past, so I think this is a pretty neat addition to the world.
Raze Valadeus > Miss Truzhari is a sexually transgendered male turned female and is currrently engaged in a susbsequently lesbian relationship with Miss Saskia?
I will never not save that quote.
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Yeah, the only people I have sympathy for are the ones that created their character during a drinking binge and named it 'BuTshecks4LyFe'. But I can't get over the 'handle your consequences' approach.
But things like a gender change? They better write new PF making that realistic. A lot of it. With scientific World News, development, execution. Everything.
As someone who is trans in the real world, right now, it is plenty realistic already. I've also played transgender characters in the past, so I think this is a pretty neat addition to the world. Its great if someone say, started playing EVE, made a male character, then came out as trans and wanted to have a female character to match their identity. It means they wouldn't have to completely reroll. I can only see this as a good thing.
I think you missed my other posts. I agree with everything you just said. What I have said elsewhere, further explaining my position, is that CCP misused the term 'dysphoria' in their fiction and that needs to be handled (or as others pointed out, simply retconned/ignored). They used it in some circumstances as a way to describe mental issues that can happen with drastic clone changes and ignored what the term actually means in real life.
dysphoria means a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life. It doesn't necessarily apply to gender and there are plenty of non gender related forms of dysphoria.
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I think that's just further strengthening the argument that it is the wrong word to be using in this case, Saede.
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I liked some of the discussion in the veteran retention segment, about CCP being terrified to change the status quo due to incarna PTSD for far too long. I think they have a difficult road ahead.
They seem to be saying the right things about the need to shake things up, but that's a long way from a deliverable.
I suppose acknowledging the funk they are in is a good step, I just hope they aren't just rearranging deck chairs on the titanic at this point..
As far as gender/name/race changes they dont currently mean shit to the actual gameplay of the game so I don't see the issue. I would prefer those things were a bit more entwined into the game than a small ID picture. Captains quarters needs to be shut down or expanded, its a constant insult this many years later.
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I think that's just further strengthening the argument that it is the wrong word to be using in this case, Saede.
Yes, this.
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At the moment, all members can now freely aggress each other. We are looking to change this so that being in the same member corp does not give you the right to legally kill your corp mates. The main goal of this is to make recruitment safer for the recruiter and the recruitee.
There goes giving everyone love taps. "Green stars are just like red stars, except you share a corp chat," is going to get me CONCORDokkened when/if that happens. <.<
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I'm not up to date on this. Did they say if you can still rep awoxers?
Ex: RR domi forgets to set drones to passive will cause everyone in rep squad to get CONCORDED.
Edit: Nevermind. This isn't a thing yet, is it?
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Not yet. It's part of the changes they want to make to corp and alliance stuff. I like to give a quick scram or shoot a gun at corpies before I warp off, so forgetting while I have a red safety would be bad. (Even if I'd probably do it anyway just to laugh about it if I do remember it first.)
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The consensus - which I agree with - seems to be that sending it straight to CONCORD is a bad idea. Giving someone who shoots a corp member suspect would seem like a better way to balance out the need for protection against the need for flexibility.
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It'll make webbing friendlies into warp a bit of a pain.
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I'd made a suggestion that some people seemed to like on Twitter but ofc it's obviously too late to really make a difference ingame for tomorrow:
- Freely allow intra-corp aggression (as it is now)
- Apply penalties (sec hits, concordokken, whatever) on destruction of a corpmate's ship, IF the Limited Engagement timer between the two corpmates was caused by aggression from one corpmate to the other. (That is, when you aggress someone you are given a Limited Engagement with them. If this happens, a kill results in a penalty.)
- However, if those two corpmates had a Limited Engagement with each other prior to the initial aggression (ie, a duel), then any ship (or pod) destructions that occur subsequently between those two players for the duration of the Limited Engagement go unpunished/sanctioned.
There's a few holes in it, like what happens if two corpmates are just screwing around w/o a duel and one accidentally destroys the other (a "forgiveness" mechanic would be useful here - give the 'victim' 24-48h to reverse the penalty applied to the other person), or if a third party comes along and blaps one of them, etc.
In the end, I guess, the issue is a question of how to balance the risk, and CCP has decided that the simplest method is to just prevent direct-consequence AWOXing wholesale. Which I guess is fine in some ways (though I think it excessive) but for non-hostile aggression between corpmates there's always the duel thing. And it totally fucks RVB up the ass, which is definitely not cool. :\
Miz: use a duel. I've had to do that (hauler alt is not in Morwen's corp and hasn't been for ages), it works and is annoying, but it still is better than nothing.
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I keep forgetting duels exist now. Thanks.
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It also makes intra-corp tournaments a fair bit harder to set up.
Back in KOTMC we had a really fun frigate free-for-all involving dozens of frigates spit out of an orca for people to hop into and start shooting.
If we were doing that now, we would have one of two options:
- Everyone duels everyone else, and we pray nobody forgot any connections.
- We all go suspect by yanking from a can or something, although this requires finding an out-of-the-way system to do it in where we know we won't be scanned down and blapped by someone looking for easy kills.
Even then, there's the possibility we might end up wrecking our faction standings, depending on how that loss works.
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The consensus - which I agree with - seems to be that sending it straight to CONCORD is a bad idea. Giving someone who shoots a corp member suspect would seem like a better way to balance out the need for protection against the need for flexibility.
On a superficial level the CSM idea had some appeal but then more I thought about it the worse and worse it sounds in practice. ILAW usually has a fun corporation tournament every year including a free for all. I'd go with marking suspect (with no standings/sec status loss) if something *had* to be done, but (wearing my director hat here) just making it easier to kick people should be sufficient (and aren't they doing that?)
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Would that proposed thunderdome PvP deployable structure solve some of these issues?
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Would that proposed thunderdome PvP deployable structure solve some of these issues?
Sure.
If it ever makes it off of Duality and onto TQ.
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On the corp pvp, one interesting suggestion I saw was in the main forums:
"Make being able to engage corpies a global on/off option, within the corp, for a specific member or role. Then the corp could use it as needed for pvp practice or internal discipline etc ..."
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*Kat activates the Energized Adaptive AstroGlide and slowly approaches the gate with her carrier. She pushes the tip in gently, slowly spreading the tight temporal orifice open. Groaning in pleasure as she feels the smooth stargate swallowing her Chimera, she backs it out a little bit, letting the stargate 'kiss' the tip of her ship again. Pushing it in further this time, she makes it roughly amidships inside, the gate twitching and throbbing around her shields. The heat and electric crackle of the overstrained wormhole sends pleasure wracking down her spine, but she can only continue to push, to ~force~ her way into that stargate until in a scream of carnal bliss she has managed to bottom out in that slutty little systems gate and pops out the other side in Jita. The stargate lays gaping wide, unable to return to its former size for a while, and Kat's carrier wiggles its stern a little bit in a goodbye tease, before warping off to 4-4...*
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The fuck did I just read
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The fuck did I just read
Sex.
Also, your boxers are missing.