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Author Topic: AXLVP Heist discussion thread  (Read 12768 times)

Aelisha Montenagre

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Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #75 on: 30 Jun 2013, 15:08 »

Simply put, meta is everything.  If my assets are being threatened, or if it is likely that a would-be friend is in fact a would-be spy, the safety of MY enjoyment trumps the enjoyment of anyone else at that juncture. 

Simply put, if I think that my operation or 'true friends' will be threatened by a newcomer, who I know has spy/thief alts and tendencies, they will be informed of that person.  Should that person still be allowed in and lives up to my expectations of douchery, the public at large will get their full alt roster (as far as I have it). 

If people are going to use trust/RP as a weapon, I am absolutely fine with burning their reputation to the ground.  Simply put - be clever.  If you're outing your thief alts or getting into a position that your 'valuable' RP is threatened by your own kleptomaniacal tendencies, you're not thieving awfully well and deserve to have your reputation draw through the freshly manured cabbage patch as a result. 

Punishment for inadequacy, or just revenge, you decide.
« Last Edit: 30 Jun 2013, 15:11 by Aelisha Montenagre »
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Vincent Pryce

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Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #76 on: 30 Jun 2013, 15:31 »

Whenever a non-roleplayer spies/awoxes/scams, you see a lot of threads in places like Crime and Punishment that outs all of that player's alts. I'm not sure why a roleplayer who conducts such activities should receive any sort of special protection simply on the basis that they roleplay.

I bolded and underlined the question I think is at the heart of your post. The short answer is "No"; if you steal actual, mechanical assets, you have engaged in a form of meta gameplay that is inherently deceptive and untrustworthy. If a roleplayer pulls a heist off on one character, reasonably speaking I shouldn't trust other characters played by the same player with assets either. It is the player who engaged in the meta gameplay, not the character. That's not to say the player is some sort of foul, evil person, but it simply wouldn't be wise to give them access to valuables anymore.
Hmm, I kinda see EVE as a poker game: deception is expected, even among friends you can trust IRL.

I can understand the OOC name and shame, but I'd hate it if Ché loses all IC credibility just because there's OOC knowledge that his player has a spy/thief alt. To me, it feels like a char not getting into TS-F because the player also plays an mission alt that does incursions, or a Matari char not getting into TLF because the player also has an Amarr Holder char. Or Ché not walking into somewhere because I see, OOC, that Ava is there waiting to punch Ché in the nards.
I would prefer it if the RP community people trusted I can keep my characters seperated until proven otherwise.

What does it matter if it's "actual, mechanical assets" instead of an IC secret or asset. Why is it not ok if someone steals "a mere 2 billion", when it is ok if someone reveals character X's big dark secret, or abucts her daughter to sell as a slave? I can blow up all your ships and crew and all will be well with The RP Community, but steal one, and I'm out?
As someone whose interactions are 99% IC when logged in, I don't see why I couldn't RP a spy/thief without metagaming, but then again, I never tried it yet, so I guess there are some things I have not thought about?
Is there no spy/counterspy/sabotage thing going on in FW RP corps or other RP enemies?

So...is Ché's trustworthiness affected now you folks know that I, the player, am cool with the spy/thief thing?

You must be new here.

While people can RP trust Ché, they most likely will not trust you out of character, and you as a player will not get access to what might be considered material assets. In EVE the difference between RP and Meta is very much in flux constantly, one or the other can be used as a strawman attack "Dude, bad meta!" or cowards defence "It was just RP!" against real consequences.

If you steal shit - as in take tangible assets for personal profit from someone and not just write words about having done so -  whether or not it's RP motivated or not, you abuse a trust someone has placed in you OOC. That gets you shitlisted OOC. What you do OOC will limit your RP options. There is no free pass just for using a different toon. If people think of you as a corpthiever OOC, it will limit your access to many corps even if ICly there'd be no objection to it. People want to secure surroundings to play in and no matter how much your character might be trustworthy, but if you are not that in the end will make the worlds difference in things as people might not necessarily feel safe letting you in their group. Declaring on an open forum that you have one spy/thief alt, or are brewing one for such purpose wasn't the smartest thing to do to begin with. It has left a permanent mark on your shirt now. Now you learn to live with the consequences.

In the simplest of terms;
No, you do not get to have your cake and eat it.

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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #77 on: 30 Jun 2013, 17:28 »

Declaring on an open forum that you have one spy/thief alt, or are brewing one for such purpose wasn't the smartest thing to do to begin with. It has left a permanent mark on your shirt now.
Honestly, I don't think anyone has to wet his shirt over Che's declaration. It's not if anyone who's not declaring that he's got a spy/thief alt is any less suspicious.
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Laria Raven

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Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #78 on: 01 Jul 2013, 01:05 »

Here's an interesting thought. Could you corpthieve via RP without breaking OOC trust?

If someone came to you and said, "here's what I'm trying to RP, here's what I've done, here's the reasons"... and you thought it was reasonable and well done... would you RP them thieving from your corp? Give them assets?
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Saede Riordan > Yeah and Leopold is the human pond scum. Laria's alright...ish.

Evi Polevhia

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Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #79 on: 01 Jul 2013, 04:08 »

Something I was thinking was a situation like this.

Person A thieves from Corp B. After A has gotten away with all the loot but before B discovers this, A comes forward OOC and says "This is what I did, here is how I did it. And OOCly, here, have all the assets back. However, can we make this an RP thing?" and proceed as if IC A still had the stolen assets from B and have the RP treat it as such.

Or you could have RP only type assets be stolen. Rather then valuable ship hulls or modules, steal data sheets, TCMC's, passkeys, ship logs, etc. RP fluff items that Corp B can easily set up for A to 'steal'.

Those are examples where I would say you can have IC theft that would not damage OOC relations. Now IC you would still be a thief and treated as such. But OOC we wouldn't wish you step out in-front of a bus. \o/
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Desiderya

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Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #80 on: 01 Jul 2013, 06:11 »

Too much handwaving invalidates everything, really. It's part of the thievery aspect that you have to raise in the ranks to get access to the good stuff. And that is, imho, impossible without OOC blending, because at least in the corps I was part in the majority of the planning was done over voice or ooc/oog chats.

I stole things without really stealing anything - I don't know, that sounds like terribly cheap drama. I also freed fifteen thousand slaves from a planetside installation belonging to X yesterday. Respect me for it. :p


To answer this more seriously, if you really, really want to keep good OOC relations after such a heist - don't be a dick. If you're stealing for personal gain, don't ruin someone's existence and act, oocly, like an asshat. But expecting everything to be fine afterwards and getting offered that director position again on your other alt - an entirely independant IC personality! - you're terribly naive indeed. ;)


In short: This sounds like asking for a metagame aspect to be done without metagaming <.<
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Lyn Farel

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Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #81 on: 01 Jul 2013, 06:31 »

Whenever a non-roleplayer spies/awoxes/scams, you see a lot of threads in places like Crime and Punishment that outs all of that player's alts. I'm not sure why a roleplayer who conducts such activities should receive any sort of special protection simply on the basis that they roleplay.

I bolded and underlined the question I think is at the heart of your post. The short answer is "No"; if you steal actual, mechanical assets, you have engaged in a form of meta gameplay that is inherently deceptive and untrustworthy. If a roleplayer pulls a heist off on one character, reasonably speaking I shouldn't trust other characters played by the same player with assets either. It is the player who engaged in the meta gameplay, not the character. That's not to say the player is some sort of foul, evil person, but it simply wouldn't be wise to give them access to valuables anymore.
Hmm, I kinda see EVE as a poker game: deception is expected, even among friends you can trust IRL.

I can understand the OOC name and shame, but I'd hate it if Ché loses all IC credibility just because there's OOC knowledge that his player has a spy/thief alt. To me, it feels like a char not getting into TS-F because the player also plays an mission alt that does incursions, or a Matari char not getting into TLF because the player also has an Amarr Holder char. Or Ché not walking into somewhere because I see, OOC, that Ava is there waiting to punch Ché in the nards.
I would prefer it if the RP community people trusted I can keep my characters seperated until proven otherwise.

What does it matter if it's "actual, mechanical assets" instead of an IC secret or asset. Why is it not ok if someone steals "a mere 2 billion", when it is ok if someone reveals character X's big dark secret, or abucts her daughter to sell as a slave? I can blow up all your ships and crew and all will be well with The RP Community, but steal one, and I'm out?
As someone whose interactions are 99% IC when logged in, I don't see why I couldn't RP a spy/thief without metagaming, but then again, I never tried it yet, so I guess there are some things I have not thought about?
Is there no spy/counterspy/sabotage thing going on in FW RP corps or other RP enemies?

So...is Ché's trustworthiness affected now you folks know that I, the player, am cool with the spy/thief thing?

It is perfectly fine to have characters backstabbing each other through corp heists with a lot of valuable casualties. I don't think a lot of us hold grudges against the act in itself nor against the IC side of it.

The issue I take though, is on the OOC level. Your analogy with poker is an interesting one and I think it may be one of the best ways to play the game and not to take things too seriously. However I still think the analogy falls short since even in Poker, you know that the other players are your enemies and not your friends, and you generally don't start using friendship, trust, and feelings to make your way to their bank account.

Also, stealing assets in eve is not only stealing virtual useless things, it is also stealing the time and effort that the person spent to gather them, and it can even be measured in real life money thanks to plexes. It's fine and all, but again on the OOC relationship level, it can hurt.



Declaring on an open forum that you have one spy/thief alt, or are brewing one for such purpose wasn't the smartest thing to do to begin with. It has left a permanent mark on your shirt now.
Honestly, I don't think anyone has to wet his shirt over Che's declaration. It's not if anyone who's not declaring that he's got a spy/thief alt is any less suspicious.

Suspicious yes. Doesn't mean that everybody does it.... does it ? I hope not...

The same way that everyone IRL can be suspected to deal in crime at night, does not mean that everyone does.


Here's an interesting thought. Could you corpthieve via RP without breaking OOC trust?

If someone came to you and said, "here's what I'm trying to RP, here's what I've done, here's the reasons"... and you thought it was reasonable and well done... would you RP them thieving from your corp? Give them assets?

Maybe I would but it's easy to say now, but if it happened to me I can't say that I would not hesitate, depending on the amounts involved. It's so much valuable time spent in farming that it would certainly hurt...

But if I can get good RP out of it, why not. It's like investing in it. I have already done that in contests and events in the past, so why not here too ? And if it's given to a fellow RPer, all the better, it's not falling into unknown hands.
« Last Edit: 01 Jul 2013, 06:33 by Lyn Farel »
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Anslol

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Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #82 on: 01 Jul 2013, 06:53 »

Trust no one. Seriously. I'm paranoid for a reason.
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Saede Riordan

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Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #83 on: 01 Jul 2013, 06:59 »

Trust no one. Seriously. I'm paranoid for a reason.

You won't actually accomplish anything on your own though. At some level, EVE both punishes trust, and requires it in order to function. Corporations and alliances are built on trust, and without it, nothing would work. I trust all of my corpmates, I have to. Without that trust there's no way to keep the tower secured and defended. By limiting yourself to gameplay you can do safety in the NPC corp, you cut away huge swaths of potential content, including most of the gameplay I engage in. So its great to say, 'trust no one' but you won't really get anything done that way.
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Anslol

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Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #84 on: 01 Jul 2013, 07:02 »

Personal preference. After experiencing what I have, I prefer 'limited' game play and peace of mind in an NPC corp knowing I can do what I want in safety without worrying constantly about who's going to war dec me or steal from me or generally shit on my day.

I play Eve for fun, not to worry. Again, personal preference though.
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Saede Riordan

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Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #85 on: 01 Jul 2013, 07:05 »

I guess that's valid, though I find the attitude completely baffling. I play EVE specifically because its such a cruel, vicious, brutal universe. The fact that we can be wardecced, that we can be robbed, that our tower can be attacked and destroyed? That's what makes the game fun for me honestly. If I wanted a game where everything I accomplished was safe, I'd definitely not play EVE. I feel like, my accomplishments have more meaning, because someone else could take them away. So surviving is itself an accomplishment.
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Shiori

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Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #86 on: 01 Jul 2013, 07:06 »

Personal preference. After experiencing what I have, I prefer 'limited' game play and peace of mind in an NPC corp knowing I can do what I want in safety without worrying constantly about who's going to war dec me or steal from me or generally shit on my day.

I play Eve for fun, not to worry. Again, personal preference though.

Oblig. subnormality: http://www.viruscomix.com/page525.html
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Desiderya

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Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #87 on: 01 Jul 2013, 07:14 »

Every achievement gets more meaningful if it could be taken away from you. ;)
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Anslol

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Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #88 on: 01 Jul 2013, 07:18 »

Personal preference. After experiencing what I have, I prefer 'limited' game play and peace of mind in an NPC corp knowing I can do what I want in safety without worrying constantly about who's going to war dec me or steal from me or generally shit on my day.

I play Eve for fun, not to worry. Again, personal preference though.

Oblig. subnormality: http://www.viruscomix.com/page525.html

I don't care. It's the whole 'you're not playing the game right' attitude that makes me stay in an NPC corp. In one way or the other, everyone thinks that way. They think mission runners do it wrong, NPC corp people do it wrong, miners do it wrong, and I'm sick of it and the bullshit that comes with being in a player corp.

I've flown through a thousand ships blasting at whatever the FC told me. I've pounded on the front door of VFK and shot whatever came out. I've plowed a carrier into a fleet of HACs just to save an alliance mate. I've probed and popped mission runners the verse over. I've gate camped and been hot dropped. I've hot dropped gate campers. I've helped build Empires and watch them burn without lifting a finger just because someone pissed me off. I've secretly laughed at the rage of a player loosing a Tech 3 ship to my corp when they first came out and drank the tears like milk and honey. I've flown under genius and madmen in fleets. I've led fleets. I taken systems. I've stole ships. I've stole wallets. I've done a shit ton in Eve.

But now, I'm sick of that. I just want to mission and market in peace. And anyone who think's I'm playing wrong (not here necessarily) or wasting my time, knows jack shit about me, and I will continue to play as I want.

Because I've seen some shit, man. I've seen some shit.
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Desiderya

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Re: AXLVP Heist discussion thread
« Reply #89 on: 01 Jul 2013, 07:36 »

Uh, yes.

*patpat*
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