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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Arkady Sadik on 30 Sep 2011, 17:20
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So, after some lengthy IGS discussions, I'm at the point where I simply do not get EVE PF anymore. As in, it is not just spotty or somewhat contradictory in the details, it's contradictory in major ways. Which makes it currently rather impossible for me to play a character with a logical position on the general political situation.
9th Generation
Jamyl "emancipated" all slaves of the 9th generation and older (and even all higher-educated ones, regardless of generation - a somewhat lesser-known detail). It is completely unclear what kind of proportion this would be.
A "generation" in the modern world is between 20 and 30 years, with less developed countries hitting shorter time spans there.[1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation#Familial_generation)] Assuming 30 years, which is the upper end in the present-day world, 8th generation slaves would have been captured around 180 years ago, or about 67 years before YC. That's some 15 years before the Amarr first make contact with the Gallente and Caldari, and 47 years (1-2 generations) before the rebellion.
The first Minmatar slaves were taken 881 years before YC, which would amount to over 33 generations, with major parts of the Minmatar Empire being conquered 29 generations ago. Older generations have an exponential growth, meaning the first 24-20 generations should vastly outnumber the last 8 generations.
But the 9th generation apparently only made up some 600 - 700 million slaves.[2 (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2643&tid=4)] PF states that, prior to this emancipation, more than one third of the present-day population remains enslaved as well The Minmatars are the most numerous of all the races in the world of EVE [3 (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Minmatar)]
Assuming a 50/50 split between the 9th to 33rd generation and the 1st to 8th generation, which is highly unlikely, we'd end up with a 1.4 billion Minmatar in the Empire, and thus 4.2 billion Minmatar in total. They're also the most numerous of the four races, so we're talking about justunder 17 billion people in the whole EVE universe (excluding Jovians). Present-day earth has 7 billion people on it, so EVE is kinda small!
This does not make sense at all.
No Enslavement Outside of the Empire
The only source for this that I could find was in the evelopedia,[4 (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery)] where it was entered by Garion Avarr, not a CCP member. Does anyone have any other source for this?
Because it sure as hell does not seem like it. If you fly Minmatar missions, you regularly get to fight Imperial Navy ships enslaving people in the Republic in various ways. The 24th IC recruitment text even states rather explicitly that [w]e need you to reclaim the Minmatar. Etc. etc.
Well, *I* am quite fine with the Amarr officially claiming that they are not taking slaves from others, but inofficially still doing slave raids. It just puts imperial loyalists into a pretty stupid situation where they get to find excuses as to why their navy is rather obviously breaking their own laws. Well, at least they're in the same boat as the Minmatar loyalists who get to wonder why their Republic is still at war if the Empire just released a vast majority of the Minmatar slaves.
(Rough) answers to this should be easily available to most people in new eden, especially capsuleers. But they aren't. Which means that the discussions on IGS are pretty much at the point where everyone is talking as if they were living in completely different universes.
So, wtf?
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Not much help here, I'm sorry.
One possible fishhook I did consider at the time was that the ninth generation slaves would have to be able to prove their pedigrees. I'd assumed that many wouldn't be able to, but then there was a story of an audit which suggested that such bookkeeping was expected (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2649&tid=2). *shrugs* Did you have to be ninth-generation on all lines of descent? If your grandfather was an Amarrian slave overseer would that help or hinder your case? Because if only one line matters, then everyone descended from a Minmatar taken in the "Day of Darkness" raids should now be free.
As for the general state of PF, and interacting on the IGS in ways consistent with us having a shared world where some things can reasonably be discussed and disputed because there's some level of objective reality about numbers of people and places and products underneath all the spin and propaganda...
... this is currently an exercise in futility.
I'm very, very fond of EVE. I wish things were otherwise. I still hope they might become otherwise. But just now I can't offer much hope: it seems to me that IGS is a silly place and the shared world is fundamentally flawed. We can retreat to our groups of players defining our own sub-worlds within the general framework, but we're not inducting people into those sub-worlds fast enough to balance attrition. So playing in the public arena is mostly spin and frustration, and playing in the private arenas is lovely but needs ways to bring in more people who won't make the old people not want to be there.
(I'd love to hear suggestions for paths out of this, by the way. Hope springs eternal. :) )
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As for the general state of PF, and interacting on the IGS in ways consistent with us having a shared world where some things can reasonably be discussed and disputed because there's some level of objective reality about numbers of people and places and products underneath all the spin and propaganda...
... this is currently an exercise in futility.
PF has *mostly* worked for me so far. There are some holes and inconsistencies, but they were not grave enough to break things for me. "We disagree", "we do not know" or even ignoring minor gaps seems to work well for me. E.g. while there is very little known about the "daily life" of Minmatar people, I have been able to RP quite well around that and even create some general ideas about how clans and tribes work that seem to work for most people.
So far, these discrepancies have not been clearly contradictory on very basic information. The problem in the OP is worse than anything I have encountered so far in PF.
And about the record keeping, there are some more PF texts indicating that the Empire was quite serious about the emancipation act and the record keeping of the generations.[1 (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Year_YC111_January#Responses_to_Emancipation)] The idea that to be considered a 9th generation slave, you need an unbroken lineage on both sides for 9 generations, sounds like a sensible explanation. Thank you.
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there's a couple references to things in old stuff like:
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1344&tid=2
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=419686
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=436217&page=1#12
mentioning things like the Youil Conventions.
there's also the "rogue slave trader" mission (lvl3 vs Blood raiders) which mentions that "These Blood Raider fanatics kidnap people indiscriminately, instead of only targeting criminals and POWs like the Amarr Empire"
there might be something, in the eve-guardian interview with Emperor Doriam, but I can't seem to find a copy of that.
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I started a copy of this thread on the official forums in hopes of getting some dev response. Louella was kind enough to respond in both places, thanks.
Official forums thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16322
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I think Heideran might have mentioned something, I'm not sure.
trying to find sources is :ugh:
a few chronicles have been retconned, and so on.
Must be something somewhere though :s
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tl;dr of my post on the EVE fiction thread - there's a unique Amarr L3 mission description that makes it very clear the Amarr are not actively raiding the Republic (or any other nation) for slaves - at least not legally.
Regarding Heideran - I seem to remember Heideran's order ceasing cross-border raids being related to his recieving the Aidonis (sp?) award. I've double-checked nearly ever single chronicle relating to the Aidonis and Heideran, though and can't find it; right now I'm trying to dig up old news stories in the hope they mention it somewhere.
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Regarding Heideran - I seem to remember Heideran's order ceasing cross-border raids being related to his recieving the Aidonis (sp?) award. I've double-checked nearly ever single chronicle relating to the Aidonis and Heideran, though and can't find it; right now I'm trying to dig up old news stories in the hope they mention it somewhere.
http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=67
http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=80
The only news stories I could find regarding that. :/
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tl;dr of my post on the EVE fiction thread - there's a unique Amarr L3 mission description that makes it very clear the Amarr are not actively raiding the Republic (or any other nation) for slaves - at least not legally.
Regarding Heideran - I seem to remember Heideran's order ceasing cross-border raids being related to his recieving the Aidonis (sp?) award. I've double-checked nearly ever single chronicle relating to the Aidonis and Heideran, though and can't find it; right now I'm trying to dig up old news stories in the hope they mention it somewhere.
The thing is. It's not the Imperial ships that are doing the actual raiding in these missions.
Invariably you have to fight past a screen of Caldari ships, and then get to deadspace transit camps guarded by Imperial Navy ships. So, technically, no Imperial laws are being broken. The Amarr here are just taking charge of these poor, distressed travellers that their Caldari allies/mercs have brought to them.
This obviously means something to the nations concerned based on the fact that I am now irrevocably KOS in the empire, and will have to be very careful about the State.
As opposed to the Republic Fleet mission where I had to kill some overly nosy Gallente, and took no standings loss at all ("spies, what spies?").
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I like this PF part concerning the Amarr being tied by the rules and laws and not able to raid for slaves anymore, but doing it nevertheless by short circuiting the laws and hiding behind a lot of shadowy layers to avoid being caught in the eyes of the law.
For the rest about the slave population and its size, yeah, its quite small. Even if for the 1st generation alone, its 600M x2^8, which equals to 153B of slaves, so it would do a total of around 250B of total slaves. I took the double at each generation of slaves (exponential by square², which means around 4 children per slave couple), even if it must be a lot more in the slave milieu, especially in breeding colonies and the likes. But it is also to compensate the fact that a lot of slaves are very probably getting integrated in the amarr society, some of them being freed, married to amarr citizens, etc. And this without counting the death/attrition rate that must be quite high in some remote places. So please keep in mind this approximation can vary a lot depending on the exponential factor you choose.
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One of the excuses/reasons I've heard most often is that having a slave convicted of crimes would essentially drop the generation counter back to one (or zero, depending on how generation is measured). Or having the slave families freed earlier, loaned them money to "get started with free life". (Oh, you can't pay your loans? Welcome to slavery again.)
Also I think Jamyl's emancipation was originally worded all 9th generation slaves, but at some point the material was changed to all 9th generation Minmatar slaves. So there would potentially be all kinds of workarounds, such as breeding Minmatar with other slave races, at which point the offspring could be likely declared to be non-Minmatar. (For example emancipating Ealurians back to Ealur wouldn't likely make much sense.)
Of course, the amount of tricks done to keep the slave's generation low depends on whether there are similar, generation-tied mechanics in the Empire in general. Or then when the news leaked out of the court the slave crime rate might have suspiciously peaked on some compounds.
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I wouldn't doubt that some holders may have also read the edict, scratched their heads and said something like, "Did She mean Minmatar generations or Amarr ones?"
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The thing is. It's not the Imperial ships that are doing the actual raiding in these missions.
Invariably you have to fight past a screen of Caldari ships, and then get to deadspace transit camps guarded by Imperial Navy ships. So, technically, no Imperial laws are being broken. The Amarr here are just taking charge of these poor, distressed travellers that their Caldari allies/mercs have brought to them.
This obviously means something to the nations concerned based on the fact that I am now irrevocably KOS in the empire, and will have to be very careful about the State.
As opposed to the Republic Fleet mission where I had to kill some overly nosy Gallente, and took no standings loss at all ("spies, what spies?").
This has always seemed to be a bit of a :derp: situation to me, given that the Empire actually sends me to shoot people for skirting the laws in similar fashions. This may represent a failure to crop old, conflicting missions while new ones are introduced.
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Why would a free person of the Empire marry a slave?
Would you marry your pet dog?
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The thing is. It's not the Imperial ships that are doing the actual raiding in these missions.
Invariably you have to fight past a screen of Caldari ships, and then get to deadspace transit camps guarded by Imperial Navy ships. So, technically, no Imperial laws are being broken. The Amarr here are just taking charge of these poor, distressed travellers that their Caldari allies/mercs have brought to them.
This obviously means something to the nations concerned based on the fact that I am now irrevocably KOS in the empire, and will have to be very careful about the State.
As opposed to the Republic Fleet mission where I had to kill some overly nosy Gallente, and took no standings loss at all ("spies, what spies?").
This has always seemed to be a bit of a :derp: situation to me, given that the Empire actually sends me to shoot people for skirting the laws in similar fashions. This may represent a failure to crop old, conflicting missions while new ones are introduced.
To be honest, I dont think its that ridiculous a situation. Given the size of these various factions, it would actually be more unrealistic to me if there was 100% compliance with any given law.
The Empire is hardly a uniform and homogeneous entity. Above and beyond the various nobility, there are economic and religious groups all jockeying for position, wealth and influence.
I could think of all kinds of reasons why Amarrian ships are out slaving. One, there is the simple greed factor. More slaves equals more money. In fact, I would argue that one reason the Empress doesnt allow more slaving runs is that it sets a cap on the number of slaves, and thus economic strength, within the Empire. It behooves the established powers within the Empire to not allow upstart families from acquiring more wealth through rampant slaving runs. They're on the top, and they want to stay that way.
Moreover, there could be hard line religious elements within the Empire, those who see the Imperial stance of not bringing God's light to the heathen as an abdication of their God-giving duty, and quite literally against their religion. ( "Our first duty is bringing God's Word to the rest of humanity! The Empress would have us turn from our most sacred duty!", etc)
Combine the two, you have quite a lot of reasons for Amarrians to conduct slaving raids outside of the Empire.
If you REALLY want to be machiavellian about it, I could easily see the Caldari eager to work with such dissident Amarrians. I'm sure they wouldnt mind the established Amarrian leadership be replaced with those Amarrians who owe their new positions to their Caldari allies, thus leading to say better trade opportunities, less access for a rival mega-corp, lower tariffs, etc. Besides, basic supply and demand would mean that the Empress's restriction on new slaving runs would drive up the price of new slaves, and the Caldari are loath to pass on such economic opportunities.
Basically, I dont see it as that far fetched that there are still slaving runs going on despite the edict banning it.
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“This will not do.” The emperor said, his voice still strong despite his frail body. “I will not permit any military forces in space to be built or operated by anyone but the imperial navy. Allowing provincial governors to establish their own armed forces sets a very dangerous precedence that can only lead to future troubles.”
There should not be any armed forces in space outside of Imperial Naval forces...
Which means that there are no means to do the actual raiding by the Amarrian businessmen.
They need a middle man that does the actual raiding for ISK, because of the Imperial laws.
Which also kind of gimps the whole capsuleer thing, now that you think of it...
Yay, another PF discrepancy.
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“This will not do.” The emperor said, his voice still strong despite his frail body. “I will not permit any military forces in space to be built or operated by anyone but the imperial navy. Allowing provincial governors to establish their own armed forces sets a very dangerous precedence that can only lead to future troubles.”
There should not be any armed forces in space outside of Imperial Naval forces...
Which means that there are no means to do the actual raiding by the Amarrian businessmen.
They need a middle man that does the actual raiding for ISK, because of the Imperial laws.
Which also kind of gimps the whole capsuleer thing, now that you think of it...
Yay, another PF discrepancy.
Yeah, this PF discrepancy is pretty stark, considering there is a freaking trailer about House Kador's personal fleet attacking the Gallente.
Meh
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Why would a free person of the Empire marry a slave?
Would you marry your pet dog?
Who said such a thing ?
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<snip>
But it is also to compensate the fact that a lot of slaves are very probably getting integrated in the amarr society, some of them being freed, married to amarr citizens, etc. <snip>
You.
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You know those liberal holders, what a bunch of troublemakers. *shakes a fist*
I realize this isn't anywhere near to a tangible answer to your question, but mine might be why its important to know how EXACTLY how many slaves are freed.
Maybe its just me, but the PF is intended as background material, exact details isn't a vital element. The fact that she DID release slaves can show there are some changes in government and that the liberal, progressive factions within the government are having some influence on it. I think that's far more important than how many slaves go free, cause it's sure not going to satisfy any of the anti-slavery crowd, who still see the institution as barbaric.
Also, governments say things all the time they don't do while doing it anyway under the radar. The question I would be asking is what economic impact slavery has on the government, and are MORE slaves going to improve that? Or are they just a liability? That's not to say that this is the only consideration, but money usually does the talking in society.
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As a note to Lallara about the Kiss of the Soul fragment, "military forces" is not the same as "armed forces". Real life comparisons suck, but because someone owns a hunting rifle or a pistol doesn't mean he's a soldier. We also do know (for example from the epic arc) that some noblemen fly and duel in spaceships. These ships also appear on other chronicles (Godflesh for example has armed ships flown by nobles). Therefore, the natural workaround against the law forbidding non-Imperial fleets in Empire is that theoretically every captain owns his own ship, which may or may not carry weapons. This does limit spaceship ownership/captainship somewhat, and in case someone starts testing the limits, I would assume that the MIO and possibly even the Imperial Navy would get involved rather fast.
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I realize this isn't anywhere near to a tangible answer to your question, but mine might be why its important to know how EXACTLY how many slaves are freed.
Oh, exact numbers aren't important (which is why I used the word "rough" in the OP, say). But rough proportions would be.
Basically, a discussion on IGS ended up at the point where one side claimed that the Empire more or less released all slaves except for some criminals, and the other claimed that there are still a lot of Minmatar enslaved.
And that discussion ends up as "no u!", because both sides have PF backing for their stance.
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I realize this isn't anywhere near to a tangible answer to your question, but mine might be why its important to know how EXACTLY how many slaves are freed.
There is a world of difference between Jamyl's edict freeing 98% of the slaves, or freeing 3% of the slaves obviously. If 98% were freed, basically most of the anti-slave war has been fought, the casus belli is much weakened since the step to total liberation has been largely set.
I don't think many players can dismiss a 98% freeing rate as just a 'self-serving political gesture', for example.
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9th Generation
Jamyl "emancipated" all slaves of the 9th generation and older (and even all higher-educated ones, regardless of generation - a somewhat lesser-known detail). It is completely unclear what kind of proportion this would be.
Obviously somebody made an oops (or several).
Honestly, I always found the timescales very hard to imagine. I would be much happier if the original (and major enslaving) happened about 8 generations ago, and the rebellion 1-2 generations. 30+ generations under a culture that actively tries to eradicate your culture, and then still be organized and cultural enough to rebel in organized fashion and restore your culture? Not very likely at all. If the original enslavement was 8 generations ago, the numbers would be much better too.
So, IC I have to consider one of the data points mentioned by Arkady as incorrect
- Invasion happened 30 generations ago
- A third of the Minmatar population is still enslaved (prior to 9th generation release)
- The Minmatar are the most populous
- 9th generation+ slaves number 700-800 million
Until now I'm going with the last one, perhaps it should have mentioned 700-800 billion? However, as stated above, I would prefer the invasion to be a shorter time ago instead, that would make the most sense to me.
Obviously, the view one takes of PF has a major impact on one's RP if one does the slavery angle. I think the silent consensus among the players seems to be that only a small portion (<10%) of the slaves have been freed, but that's largely because that would make the most sense story-wise. I don't know if many have stopped and thought about what the logical proportion (99%+) would be, because the logical proportion would sorta destroy/overturn a lot of the slavery storyline.
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So, Jamyl emancipated generation 9 and older meaning 8th, 7th, 6th and so on. It's pointed out in this thread that the Invasion happened 30 generations ago. So, majority of the hereditary matari slaves proabably chill in generations 27 to 30. While there can be a considerable amount of high educaiton slaves and those who's ancestors were enslaved in the recent centuries, that is still is a very miniscule amount of matari freed comparing to the amount still in the Empire due to their higher generation.
While the emancipation was perceived as an olive branch it was probably also a very demoralizing attack veiled in good intentions. "O RLY?" I hear you say. I say "YA RLY" and here's why;
The emancipation nearly crushed the Republic's resources and infrastructure - putting a serious strain on the Republic resulting in riots, disorderly conduct, violence, religious persecution and probably a lot of disillusioned freedom fighters when the people they freed went "fuck your tribes we wish to serve the one true God even as free people".
Then again it's entirely possible that it was all :psyccp: and I'm just giving them way too much credit than they deserve and create grimdark there where :psyccp: meant to be none.
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You know those liberal holders, what a bunch of troublemakers. *shakes a fist*
This is one of the things that has been bugging me for quite some time.
To me as a Finn a liberal means something, to someone from different country and cultural heritage a liberal means something completely different. Even talking to another Finn that would have gone to the same school and had the same education as me, the meaning would be different.
So...
To me a liberal Holder in the Empire means a few things.
- slaves are motivated by the carrot, not by the rod, to follow the Scriptures.
- the Scriptures and the Traditions do not determine every aspect of life.
- there can be limited contact with the other cultures.
The carrot is something subtle, like being able to name your children.
Not freedom in a generation if you follow the rules.
A liberal Holder by no means...
- smokes French cigarettes and sports a dashing moustache.
- fucks everything that moves.
- thinks that slaves are people.
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Don't worry, folks.
The reason that there has been no new PF for over a year is because ISD are all hard at work fixing the inconsistencies.
When they are finshed, we will all live in the sunny uplands of a brighter tomorrow and problems with the PF will be a thing of the past.
Or, if you prefer... :psyccp:
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So, Jamyl emancipated generation 9 and older meaning 8th, 7th, 6th and so on. It's pointed out in this thread that the Invasion happened 30 generations ago. So, majority of the hereditary matari slaves proabably chill in generations 27 to 30. While there can be a considerable amount of high educaiton slaves and those who's ancestors were enslaved in the recent centuries, that is still is a very miniscule amount of matari freed comparing to the amount still in the Empire due to their higher generation.
Merdaneth is confused...
A 10th generation slave is 'older' than a 9th generation, both in years and in generations of slavery. So older means, 10th, 11th, 12th. I can think of no dimension that 6th generation slaves are older than say 9th generation slaves.
The general idea was that only those who have been enslaved for a long time are released, unfortunately, logic dictates that generations 9-35 hold nearly all the slaves (percentage wise).
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So, Jamyl emancipated generation 9 and older meaning 8th, 7th, 6th and so on. It's pointed out in this thread that the Invasion happened 30 generations ago. So, majority of the hereditary matari slaves proabably chill in generations 27 to 30. While there can be a considerable amount of high educaiton slaves and those who's ancestors were enslaved in the recent centuries, that is still is a very miniscule amount of matari freed comparing to the amount still in the Empire due to their higher generation.
Merdaneth is confused...
A 10th generation slave is 'older' than a 9th generation, both in years and in generations of slavery. So older means, 10th, 11th, 12th. I can think of no dimension that 6th generation slaves are older than say 9th generation slaves.
The general idea was that only those who have been enslaved for a long time are released, unfortunately, logic dictates that generations 9-35 hold nearly all the slaves (percentage wise).
Say my dad is 1st generation slave, that makes me 2nd generation when I have kids they will be the 3rd generation their kids will be 4th and so on. So. ZombieQueen says, 3rd and older are free to go, that's gonna leave my grand kids still in captivity. As I understand generations 1 to 3 are the older generations and the 4th one the younger.
Maybe I'm looking this from a more VtM kind of angle.
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<snip>
But it is also to compensate the fact that a lot of slaves are very probably getting integrated in the amarr society, some of them being freed, married to amarr citizens, etc. <snip>
You.
I now see why you understood that. No, I meant, "some of them being freed, then sometimes married to amarr citizens". So, no, I did not say that, even if it was possible to understand it as you did, mea culpa.
A liberal Holder by no means...
- smokes French cigarettes and sports a dashing moustache.
- fucks everything that moves.
- thinks that slaves are people.
You have sources for that ?
The only I know of :
Liberal Holders
Holders, the major landholding class in Amarr society, are generally conservative traditionalists. A few, however, have elected to break ranks with their hidebound and power-hungry peers, instead supporting the modernization of their society's religion and substantial economic reform. Their champion is Catiz Tash-Murkon, the Udorian Royal Heir.
That could mean anything, as much like what you say, and as much like what other people say (for example liberals being very liberal by amarrian standards, considering their slaves as people, etc etc). I personnaly believe liberal amarrians are both, with a wide scale of grey in between.
True Amarrians – direct descendants of an ethnic group that conquered all the civilizations of its home world – are proud and supercilious, with a great sense of tradition and ancestry. They are considered arrogant and tyrannical by most others. The Empire's defeat at the hands of the mysterious Jovians, and the Minmatar uprising that followed, left an indelible mark on Amarrian culture. This double failure, a turning point in their history, has shaped an entire generation of policy and philosophy among the imperial elite.
So, again, it can be understood in many different ways and I do not see at all how your personnal view has to be the only solid one (I am not reporting you for urdoingitwrong, but its borderline considering how you stated it).
Thus, unless you have clear sources stating that slaves are not considered as people by liberal holders, and even more, by all of them, I do not see why stating that this is the case. And I am only talking about the "slave are people" point, for that smoking french cigarettes and bearing a mustache, and fucking everything that moves, is just ludicrous.
So, Jamyl emancipated generation 9 and older meaning 8th, 7th, 6th and so on. It's pointed out in this thread that the Invasion happened 30 generations ago. So, majority of the hereditary matari slaves proabably chill in generations 27 to 30. While there can be a considerable amount of high educaiton slaves and those who's ancestors were enslaved in the recent centuries, that is still is a very miniscule amount of matari freed comparing to the amount still in the Empire due to their higher generation.
Merdaneth is confused...
A 10th generation slave is 'older' than a 9th generation, both in years and in generations of slavery. So older means, 10th, 11th, 12th. I can think of no dimension that 6th generation slaves are older than say 9th generation slaves.
The general idea was that only those who have been enslaved for a long time are released, unfortunately, logic dictates that generations 9-35 hold nearly all the slaves (percentage wise).
If higher the generation number then older the generation (meaning generation 1 is younger than generation 2) as you say, then it will automatically be the first one to be more numerous, because by the very law of nature, unless their demographics are dropping, newer generations are always more numerous. Percentage wise, the 9th would be very small in comparison to the second one, and even more compared to the first one. In the calculations I made above (for a 4 children per couple), it was 150B of slaves in generation 1, and around 40B in generation 2.
If lower the generation number then older the generation (like Vince said), then its damn weird if we think to the results : with all the generations above 9 freed, firstly that would mean that all the younger generations have been freed, and thats quite a lot of generations (9 to 30++). Secondly, considering that newest generations are exponentially the more numerous, that means basically that all slaves have been freed... And well, thats what ? 20 generations ? How the hell people from the 20th generation still live ?
tl;dr : If the Empress released all the newest generations, then its the majority of the slaves. If the Empress released all the oldest generations, then its a minority.
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Re thinking about it, its even more weird. 9 generations is what ? 180 years ? 200 ? How the hell people of more than 5-6 generations can still be living ? Maybe we understand it wrong ?
And if it was more about another way of thinking ? If it was actually a slave family that have been in slavery for more than 9 generations that would be actually freed ? That would mean generation 1, 2, 3, etc, but only for families with a long state of slavery (9 generations in slavery or higher). But if this is the case, this is also quite a lot of slaves, so 600M seems very, very small to me.
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And if it was more about another way of thinking ? If it was actually a slave family that have been in slavery for more than 9 generations that would be actually freed ? That would mean generation 1, 2, 3, etc, but only for families with a long state of slavery (9 generations in slavery or higher). But if this is the case, this is also quite a lot of slaves, so 600M seems very, very small to me.
This.
If you'd been captured and enslaved, you're a first generation slave. If your grandparents were the ones captured, you'd be a third generation slave. The ones freed were the ones whose multiply-great-grandparents had been enslaved, or who were educated. The numbers given seem awfully small (in the order of a tenth of the population of present-day Earth). While that might mean there's a noticeable new sub-ethnicity around the places they now live, it doesn't feel like it should put the sort of huge extra pressure on the Republic that we've been assuming.
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Say my dad is 1st generation slave, that makes me 2nd generation when I have kids they will be the 3rd generation their kids will be 4th and so on. So. ZombieQueen says, 3rd and older are free to go, that's gonna leave my grand kids still in captivity. As I understand generations 1 to 3 are the older generations and the 4th one the younger.
Maybe I'm looking this from a more VtM kind of angle.
I think I understand you now. However, when looking at it from that perspective, everyone from generations 1-9 are long dead and releasing 9th and older will not release any slaves at all. Unless you can make a decent case that life expectancy of an average slave in the Empire exceeds 700+ years of course.
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Thing is, PF is full of holes and where it isn't it's full of ambiguity. While ambiguity is good for PF to some degree as it allows people to take different stances more easily, CCP easily overshoots the threshold where it just gets ridiculous, the 'older generations' being just one example:
'Older' one can argue can mean all kind of things - it doesn't make clear at all what is meant. If you speak about generations, it's much more wise to speak of higher and lower generation.
Another thing is: If you play with others, say Minmatar internally or Amarr internally, it's easy to get those PF glitches fixed, to fill the holes with something that makes sense to you and the ones you cooperate with in filling those holes, as you have a common interest in filling those holes in a constructive and (for you) fun way.
If one gets out of those communities and does Amarr & Minmatar cross-faction RP, things start to be messy: Suddenly, the common interest to portray the faction as one thing or the other not, fades, as the other factions plays another role in my game than my own. In effect one side has a 'vested interest' to let the other stand there as incoherently and non-sensical as possible, not even because one side doesn't like the other OOGly, but simply because the less sense the other side makes, the more sense does the own side make.
I've the impression that we are therefore naturally tending to maximize the sense the side we're playing makes and minimizing the others in the process.
This is even more accentuated in the case of the Amarr: Slavery simply is a hot topic. And while some Amarr players try to make sense of the slavery system and try to understand it as coherently as possible other Amarr players simply make sense out of the situation by letting the Amarr stand as simply evil (or pretty much that: When we had lots of civilizations in our history that practiced slavery, by studying them we will see that the vast majority of them didn't consider slaves to be pets or animals: In fact, slaves were usually considered to be people and there's no reason to assume the Amarr don't imho).
Now, while I don't want to prescribe a method to interpret the PF and build up from it a coherent picture of the factions in EVE, I personally think it would be good to make the conscious choice to use one for all. I personally go with the method of benevolently maximizing coherence and sense and try to apply that to all four factions (and the minor ones as well).
This is active effort, as I as many others - i assume, would rather like to maximize coherence for the faction my char moves in and let the Minmatar go down the gutter coherence and sense-wise. Not because I don't like the Minnies, but simply because it'd let me experience a more coherent Amarrian world. More coherent means more immersive, more immersive means more fun. And I'd venture that this is true for most RPers.
That's unfair to the Minmatar, though, as I'd measure them entirely different than the faction of my choice. I'd be okay with people generally going for minimizing coherence for all factions. What's important to me is, that I as a player make an active effort to measure all of them with the same stick. What my char does is another story of course.
But then, if he tries to look at the thing objectively, I as a player should be aware to not hold to an idea of the objective state of the factions that has been produced by a lop-sided procedure of producing that which I hold to be 'objective'.
What do I want to say by this long-winded post?
tl;dr: It's easier to get the blatant holes and inconsistencies closed in a way that everyone can agree on if all are on the same side. How incoherent and useless the PF oftentimes is to establish a 'common reality' for all only shows in situations of conflict between to (or more) factions.
I don't think that given the state of PF there's a solution to that problem.
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Er. About the question what "ninth generation and up" means, exactly, to quote the news article for the emancipation:[1 (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2643&tid=4)]
Besides, if you’re ninth-generation, you, your parents and all the ancestors you know of will have known nothing but the Empire. The Republic is a distant and frightening dream to these people. Where do you think they’re going to go?
I don't think there is much of a doubt what is meant there, really?
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Indeed, re-reading it, it's "nineth generation and up", which most certainly meaning higher generations were as well freed, that's 9th, 10th, 11th... etc.pp.
Still, doesn't solve the inconsistencies that have been pointed out.
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Lyn, to me it seemed like you missed the biggest point of my post in your hurry to be offended and feeling criticized.
To me as a Finn a liberal means something, to someone from different country and cultural heritage a liberal means something completely different. Even talking to another Finn that would have gone to the same school and had the same education as me, the meaning would be different.
To me the crux of the problem is the fact that people have the tendency of judging the Amarrians by their own worldviews and cultures, therefore giving meanings to word 'liberal' that are not there.
Personally I feel that as roleplayers playing within a predetermined setting, we should strive to honor that setting by trying to work with the information that we get from PF to create worldviews for our characters that are consistent with the world and the cultures they inhabit.
What I was trying to get through was the fact that a liberal Amarrian 20k+ years in the future has very little in common with the worldview of a liberal whatever in the year 2011.
With the Amarrians we are talking about the only culture that has pretty much been unchanged since its conception. Technologically, philosophically, economically and spiritually. There has been situations where the technological advancement could have leapfrogged forward , but the Amarrians rejected change by labeling such urges as heresy therefore as something that is against the basic teachings of their religion. (I am referring to the Takmahl technological advancements in the areas of cloning and biotechnology about 2k years ago in the past.)
What I am referring as the basic teachings of the religion, are Reclaiming and the burden of Sin.
As a society and culture we are talking about something that is quite unfathomable by our standards.
There is no religion in the world that equates to the religion of the Empire.
When your holy Scriptures hold every aspect of life, it would come to reason that the religion itself covers every aspect of life.
Like Kama Sutra was compiled by a holy man as a way of having a perfect marriage (there is more than fancy snus-snus there) so has the Scriptures been compiled as a blueprint for a perfect society that cultivates the Spirit of Man by bringing spirituality and holiness into every single thing that you do in your life.
There is a right way of making breakfast in the name of God, there is a right way of making love in the name of God, there is a right way of making War in the name of God, and it is all covered within the Scriptures.
Then the modernizing of the religion and substantial economic reform.
Think.
What does that mean.
Trying to shift power from the old power block that already has their power set in stone by the basic concepts of the religion and the power structure that is in place.
So that the liberal Holders would have that power themselves.
By changing the religion so that they can make more profit.
Like Tash-Murkon did, they made their fortune by taking out the middle men while dealing with foreign cultures.
So, liberal Holders want to change the Reclaiming and the burden of Sin.
It would be profitable for them to industrialize the production as much as possible, get rid of a whole class of people in the economy (the artisans) by using standardized goods and opening up greater markets by changing the definition of Faith into lip service.
You get a cheap labour force by freeing the slaves and having them in a economic prison like in the Gallente Federation, you would also have a disposable work force from the artisans that could not compete with the cheap goods flooded into the market from the other empires and from the factories.
With the Faith being nothing else than holding a Symbol of the Faith, you could basically deal without any middle men with anybody (pretty much making Ni-Kunni and the Khanid Kingdom obsolete.)
It's just very hard for me to think that the word liberal, in liberal Holder, means anything morally good.
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Nice post, Lallara.
It's just very hard for me to think that the word liberal, in liberal Holder, means anything morally good.
This, really. One of the things that I really love about EVE is that no one in this universe is "good" or "nice" - it's a dark universe indeed, and everyone there is "evil" in some way.
The Amarr and Caldari are obviously so, but so are the Minmatar with their tribalism, primitive exile, infighting and rather low standards of living; and so are the Gallente, with their completely exaggerate "personal freedoms" and hedonism (that chronicle about the Amarr and Gallente executions was *awesome* for this).
At the same time, none of them are simply "Evil Genius" kind of evil. None of them is "evil just to be evil" - they all have the best intentions, they just suck at implementing them, and the only options they have left are "evil" or "bigger evil".
That's what I love about the EVE backstory :-)
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Yes Lallara, thanks for stating the obvious. And I am not going to answer to condescending stuff telling me to "think", sorry. Anyway, I agree and have always agreed on what you just said. You missed the point completely.
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I am sorry if I come across condescending, it may come through that I am just sick and tired of hashing through the same old thing time and again.
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To me the crux of the problem is the fact that people have the tendency of judging the Amarrians by their own worldviews and cultures, therefore giving meanings to word 'liberal' that are not there.
Personally I feel that as roleplayers playing within a predetermined setting, we should strive to honor that setting by trying to work with the information that we get from PF to create worldviews for our characters that are consistent with the world and the cultures they inhabit.
This makes sense, although one might consider the impact that being/becoming a capsuleer is going to have on that worldview. The average amarrian hasn’t seen the entire cluster, been exposed to foreign cultures, etc. If we want, as capsuleers, we can fly missions for the competing factions and see, for example, both sides of the “Amarrians are still making slave raids” argument, both the side that says it’s illegal and the side that says it happens every day. So I think it would be a stretch to expect an Amarrian capsuleer to still see the world the way a normal Amarrian, even a holder, does.
What I was trying to get through was the fact that a liberal Amarrian 20k+ years in the future has very little in common with the worldview of a liberal whatever in the year 2011.
With the Amarrians we are talking about the only culture that has pretty much been unchanged since its conception. Technologically, philosophically, economically and spiritually. There has been situations where the technological advancement could have leapfrogged forward , but the Amarrians rejected change by labeling such urges as heresy therefore as something that is against the basic teachings of their religion. (I am referring to the Takmahl technological advancements in the areas of cloning and biotechnology about 2k years ago in the past.)
Agreed here – mostly. I think certain major events would have had impacts on the culture whether the Amarrians wanted it or not. For example, the Kingdom splitting off, the Minmatar rebellion (especially since it was largely successful), the defeat by the Jovians that is mentioned in the True Amarr description as having left its mark on a generation.
A comparison would be to the erosion of a riverbed. You can take measures to prevent the slow, gradual erosion, but there’s really nothing you can do against massive catastrophic flooding.
What I am referring as the basic teachings of the religion, are Reclaiming and the burden of Sin.
As a society and culture we are talking about something that is quite unfathomable by our standards.
There is no religion in the world that equates to the religion of the Empire.
When your holy Scriptures hold every aspect of life, it would come to reason that the religion itself covers every aspect of life.
Like Kama Sutra was compiled by a holy man as a way of having a perfect marriage (there is more than fancy snus-snus there) so has the Scriptures been compiled as a blueprint for a perfect society that cultivates the Spirit of Man by bringing spirituality and holiness into every single thing that you do in your life.
There is a right way of making breakfast in the name of God, there is a right way of making love in the name of God, there is a right way of making War in the name of God, and it is all covered within the Scriptures.
Actually really neat stuff to think about. Bolded part is extremely important and is part of why it annoys me to see people going after Amarrians with arguments against RL religions, but oh well.
Then the modernizing of the religion and substantial economic reform.
Think.
What does that mean.
Trying to shift power from the old power block that already has their power set in stone by the basic concepts of the religion and the power structure that is in place.
So that the liberal Holders would have that power themselves.
By changing the religion so that they can make more profit.
Like Tash-Murkon did, they made their fortune by taking out the middle men while dealing with foreign cultures.
So, liberal Holders want to change the Reclaiming and the burden of Sin.
It would be profitable for them to industrialize the production as much as possible, get rid of a whole class of people in the economy (the artisans) by using standardized goods and opening up greater markets by changing the definition of Faith into lip service.
You get a cheap labour force by freeing the slaves and having them in a economic prison like in the Gallente Federation, you would also have a disposable work force from the artisans that could not compete with the cheap goods flooded into the market from the other empires and from the factories.
With the Faith being nothing else than holding a Symbol of the Faith, you could basically deal without any middle men with anybody (pretty much making Ni-Kunni and the Khanid Kingdom obsolete.)
While I think this is a really neat idea of what a Liberal Holder might think, I’m interested in whether there’s solid evidence for this view or if it’s the answer you came up with to “What does this mean?”
I think it would be really neat to see different “Liberal” Amarrians, all looking to make these ‘reforms’ but with different ideas about what the reforms should be. There might be room for abolitionists and peace makers, there would be room for people like you describe (which sounds very heavily Caldari, and would be very scary – the resources of the Empire with the efficiency of the Cladari? Oshi- ), etc. The PF regarding liberal holders seems to be very vague (probably on purpose, or just because of :ccp: and :lazy:) so I think it could encompass a broad range of people with different agendas.
It's just very hard for me to think that the word liberal, in liberal Holder, means anything morally good.
From whose perspective? Ours? Probably not. Theirs? Maybe.
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From what I can recall of chronicles dealing with the upper end of the Holder class and the Heirs. Faith is a tool for social control, not something that they have themselves. I'd say Jamyl's plotline is the ultimate expression of this.
This would tally well with the setting's rather cynical and jaded cyberpunkish style. But is that the way the rest of you see things?
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Mostly for me. I see it that way in all the empires.
But like IRL (RL comparisons are often bad, ok, but I did not make my feeling out of a RL comparison here), most things are not about ideology, but power/influence/money, even if coated in ideologies.
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With the Amarrians we are talking about the only culture that has pretty much been unchanged since its conception. Technologically, philosophically, economically and spiritually.
I beg to differ: just because the Empire is set up against (especially sudden) change it doesn't follow that it does not change: In fact, we have PF stating that the Empire changed quite a bit since it conception, just look at the Tertrimon e.g. - there are also other examples. There have been examples where change has been resisted as well, but it's simply not the whole story.
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lookat all that ooc-derived terrible discussion on the IGS :ugh:
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I don't have access to the in-game news at login these days, but have there been any 'official' reaction stories from inside or outside the empire?
As Jamyl is such a hardliner this seems an.... odd move for her character.
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Jamyl has become a character full of contradictions.
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Jamyl has become a character full of contradictions.
Properly done, those are the best characters. Improperly done, they cause forehead shaped dents in desks and walls.
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Properly done, those are the best characters. Improperly done, they cause forehead shaped dents in desks and walls.
Careful, if the weak and small empress hears this, she will lift you up with one hand and throw you across the room in anger!
Like all Angry Characters do. In Empyrean Age, at least.
I don't have access to the in-game news at login these days, but have there been any 'official' reaction stories from inside or outside the empire?
As Jamyl is such a hardliner this seems an.... odd move for her character.
The relevant articles I could find:
http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=2643
http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=2645
http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=2667
http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=2671
http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=2709
http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=2715
http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=3357
http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=3548
http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=3550
http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=3552
http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=3554
Lots of stuff about the Republic, some about the other empires, only one article from the Empire itself (the original announcement).
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Thank you very much for posting these! Appreciated.
Of course we probably wouldn't hear any 'official' disagreements from within the Empire. Also ironic the only comment came from Khanid II, a notoriously hard-liner with regards to slavery.