Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Sabbott on 31 Aug 2010, 22:27
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Preface:
firstly I had a question for the community as a whole, I been lurking around here since I clicked link to here a few days ago, always thought the OOC channel was enough but I guess I can see this forum useful as well.
First let me put to rest, as short as possible, that I don't believe I am the best roleplayer. even though I have been doing it since before I even knew what the internet was. I make mistakes often and try to own up to them and improve myself and work with others, I'm reasonable and open minded, I'm here to have fun. thats why i roleplay to have fun.
I play an evil aligned character, But try to keep good virtue's or what he/she would think where good... at least honesty, truth, humility. and try to always stick to my word. even if cruel and ruthless or following a twisted faith and a pirate cult, I try to live by my ideals and words and detest those who don't follow what they preach or stand for, those who aren't honest, truthful, And i think bigots and deceitful people are vile, and the lowest of scum
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So down to the point of post and poll.. I saw that thread on IGS the other night, the "MERDE-ENOUGH and the FABULOUS FORUM WAR" one, As an Inquisitor, Sabbott is weary and investigates things, I am not new to IGS and seen much drama's.
I viewed the link of the image, and looked around the forums to see who this person could be, I couldn't believe it when all results pointed towards Jade Constantine. A character with high ideals, who was vocal against such things, At first I thought I would keep it to myself. But anything on IGS thats not in the signature I thought was fair game... and could be explained IC how it was traced..
So i made my post of my findings, and follow ups, calling her out on this, I mean it could of been kept private by posting on any anonymous file server, tinypic, imageshack...instead of her private server, if it was really important to keep this character separate from the main identity for propaganda purposes. which i have nothing against.
So did I cross the line by RP "tracing the image node" etc. ?
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I dont think so. Its something you noticed "in game", and approached it as a character would. You are playing an inquisitor after all.
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yeah, seems pretty clear cut to me. No line crossage at all.
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Seems IC to me. It makes sense that Galnet would operate similarly if not identically to the internet (Which is, at the end of the day just a bunch of computers networked together and a pretty basic principle) so things like hosting images at private servers would still be something to call.
[mod]Aspersions against another player, possible flame-bait and/or trolling moved.[/mod]
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I thought it was pretty damn clever of you. Very inquisitory.
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If you do an half-assed attempt and it fails, you deserve to be called out for it. If you can do that IC, even better. Nice find.
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As I think I suggested in the IGS thread, you can explain image-hosting in IC terms as using a comms relay from the pilot to the Galnet.
If someone has access to a private relay, then you can conclude that there's a connection between them and the owner
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You say you're not the best roleplayer. I submit that, even though it's not exactly a ranked hobby, you're doing it a damn sight better than you might realize.
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Thanks everyone for the feedback, Just wanted to say, when its suggested I might of taken a mistep in RP I try to get feedback OOC as I am pretty reasonable and not out to ruin anyone's fun, and finally i try never to step over established boundary's most know exist between IC/OOC divide ...
Edit: thats one of the reasons I am weary to get on voice with roleplay folk till i know them well ooc OR just my excuse i use cause its weird but unless i know person i feel shy talking to peeps hehe :) or just afriad of being made look like a fool like these peeps http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiLOyszU8dI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiLOyszU8dI)
And thanks Casiella for compliment!
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[mod]Please avoid over-generalization, tarring-with-same-brush etc, as it's inflammatory and unhelpful.[/mod]
Just as obviously I do not.
The consequence is that I have no continuing interest in roleplaying with your character because I don't believe a roleplayer should be forced to rent multiple web-server domains to provide "IC" separation.
It's just a taste thing. Either we agree and find an acceptable medium of involvement or we disagree and do not roleplay with each ever in a consensual fashion. In this case I'll doubtless respond to you on forums and in space as I would with anyone - but I have no continuing interest in private discussions or anything that involves me "trusting" your motives as a player.
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The consequence is that I have no continuing interest in roleplaying with your character because I don't believe a roleplayer should be forced to rent multiple web-server domains to provide "IC" separation.
Why would you have to rent multiple web-server domains when Photobucket and Imageshack exist for something you intended to use as a one-or-two-off setup?
I would suggest what he did was fine, and not because of who the target was, if I got hit by it I'd think it was fine too.
I suggest it's fine because there are easy workarounds that are very quick, very simple, and cost nothing but two seconds of your time to register for.
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Simple answer is I don't think I should have too.
*snip*
I guess it comes from my LARP history where you often player different characters that look the same(ish) with different costumes because its fundimentally the same player.
The polite thing is to ask (ooc is that x or y) if you are confused. Not to go right ahead and schedule an assassination for y because the character happens to be played by the same player as x.
There is a limit to detective work and metagaming where it comes corrosive to the notion of any ic/ooc divide at all.
*snip*
At the end of the day its just a thing. We move on and now backstage is informed that I (as a player) consider people who try to link IGS identities by OOC webserver trace as not worth roleplaying with (in the personal one to one sense) - of course I'll still be very happy to roleplay with you with lasers and missiles in business as usual!
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Why shouldn't you have to? *snip*
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Jade, I did not mention anything we spoke of OOC with anyone, But i wanted for myself check with the eve roleplay community, And the best way is to ask the majority. if its clear cut then I'll sleep at night knowing i did nothing wrong, I roleplay to have fun, not to ruin anyone elses..
and yes I host my forum sig on imageshack/tinypic, you don't even need to register for and they keep hosting it for free for years.. So don't see why you couldn't just take 5 seconds to post it there. if you wanted to separate the characters totally and avoid being "traced"
Also its a sad day as i told you when we spoke... that you'll avoid roleplaying with me over this...[mod] Please read the FAQ [/mod] as i say I am reasonable and easy going.. I have no alternate motives to attack you. but i do stand by my ideals and virtue's as stated in original post.
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RP FTW. (Literally.)
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*Snip* And the best way is to ask the majority.
Because the majority is always right ?
My apologies for *Snipping* into your post but it was to funny not to do so.
I just want it confirmed that people will support me if I use ICly any resource used by another character on the IGS or other IC arena ?
Now Sabbott I don't want you to take what I wrote above as a dig at you or what you have done. I personally wouldn't have but if you're comfortable with it then it's up to you.
The reason I'm writing the above is simple:
Quite a lot of forum shouting has been going on in order to keep the divide up when it comes to keeping creativity up through blogs etcetera.
I understand this. What fun is there after all to write about your character and his or hers doings if there's no one to appreciate it or perhaps be influenced to create masterpieces himself.
Now a link is done between an alt and a high visibility figure on the forums with a simple right click. This is used then to point out whatever.
It is then excused with "It's on an IC board then it's fair game"
[mod]Please avoid straw man arguments [/mod]
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So let's be clear about all this.
Someone has two different characters. They want to roleplay them as different and not connected to one another. Just that, nothing super-secret or involving any kind of subterfuge. They're just an EVE player who fancies dipping into two different aspect of RP.
The player makes some sigs for their two characters. Hosts them, naturally enough, at the same URL without really giving it much thought, and carries on RPing and enjoying themselves for a year or so, crafting through actual roleplay in channels, on IGS and in space separate identities with no connection.
And then, a clever-minded inquisitor comes along, decides to play trace the signature game on a variety of characters and finds out that these two characters must be played by the same person.
They then expose this in an 'IC' way on IGS and that player has no recourse to a defence that this was OOC information?
They're linked, IC, and there is nothing that can be done about it?
*snip*
Cosmo
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"Should've been smarter in covering the tracks of your misdeed."
You're putting words in my mouth. At no point did I say it was a misdeed, nor imply it.
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"Should've been smarter in covering the tracks of your misdeed."
You're putting words in my mouth. At no point did I say it was a misdeed, nor imply it.
I did not mean to single you out in any way it was just the gist as I caught it by a majority. I've edited it slightly and hope that you'll comment further on my post [mod]This was not the topic under discussion, and is still a straw man[/mod]
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So let's be clear about all this.
Someone has two different characters. They want to roleplay them as different and not connected to one another. Just that, nothing super-secret or involving any kind of subterfuge. They're just an EVE player who fancies dipping into two different aspect of RP.
The player makes some sigs for their two characters. Hosts them, naturally enough, at the same URL without really giving it much thought, and carries on RPing and enjoying themselves for a year or so, crafting through actual roleplay in channels, on IGS and in space separate identities with no connection.
And then, a clever-minded inquisitor comes along, decides to play trace the signature game on a variety of characters and finds out that these two characters must be played by the same person.
They then expose this in an 'IC' way on IGS and that player's characters have no recourse to a defence that this was OOC information?
They're linked, IC, and there is nothing that can be done about it?
*snipped* - quoted moderated material
Cosmo
The entire post history of Shaw within the IGS was as a supporter of the Fraction and derider of it's enemies. This is not creating a character which is unique and not connected. This is creating precisely the kind of alt that many Fractioneers have accused me of being in the past.
Furthermore, the connection was not in the signatures. It was between the signatures and a picture which effectively called Merdaneth a fat-fatty-fatkins in direct response to his 'Wheat Fraction' thread (Which I'll say for clarity that though I find funny, I do think are at least tiptoeing on the line between honest debate and simple slander. At least).
This is something that the Constantine does all the time, she's not a character known for her restraint. If JC wanted to do this, he didn't need to use an alt to do it. Unless he wasnted to give the illusion of more popular support for the Fraction.
And all of this, perhaps, might, possibly, maybe be overlooked and have Sab's actions be a grey area, [mod]A character's actions are not a justification for OOC action; do not use inflammatory or insulting language towards other players. [/mod]
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"Should've been smarter in covering the tracks of your misdeed."
You're putting words in my mouth. At no point did I say it was a misdeed, nor imply it.
I did not mean to single you out in any way it was just the gist as I caught it by a majority. I've edited it slightly and hope that you'll comment further on my post as wheter I'm allowed to use any and all resources presented to me in an IC format or if not, which are allowed and why.
I think the rest of your post is misleading, in a way. Blogs have nothing to do with it. This is entirely encompassed within IGS, which is an IC venue. A person's blog isn't an IC venue unless they say otherwise. IGS is an IC venue and that comes from CCP. If one is going to post something on IGS, it is going to come under scrutiny from its detractors. If one does not take precautions to protect any subterfuge they are attempting to commit to properly, then they are going to get outed for it.
That's the thing about subterfuge. If you're attempting it, you'd best attempt it wholehearted. A half-assed attempt at it will get you busted, and if you get busted then you're busted and you own up to it. You can try to dodge the issue as best as able, but if you're caught, then you're caught.
And as Jakiin said it's doubly so in a case when it is done by an entity that constantly decries the behavior.
I approve of both actions, by the by, both Jade's action and Sabbott's.
effectively called Merdaneth a fat-fatty-fatkins
Which is a bold-faced lie. There is only one fat-fatty-fatkins in EVE.
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[mod]working on this thread[/mod]
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[mod]At least one comment has been removed from this thread already.Please be constructive. Don't post flamebait, this particular topic is sensitive at this time.[/mod]
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Both the claim that "Web/IP addresses exist in EVE IC, and can be used to link posters on IGS" and its negation are plausible. However, I see no way to adjudicate the truth value of either claim short of personal preference.
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[mod]Provocative, flamebait, casting nasturtiums on other players etc etc.[/mod]
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On the straw man argument that "Jade attacks posting proxies so that its okay to use web-address stuff IC to attack jade" - I will simply say that I don't like posting proxies no. But you will note that when I condemn them I do so [mod]snip[/mod] without any [mod]snip[/mod]reference to web-addresses or IP or real world player identity or such.
Hence lets dispense with this particular strawman since it brings no value to the discussion.
I will attack an obvious proxy by suggesting X is a shill of Y, is an agent, a hireling, a propaganda puppet etc. All entirely valid IC terms (to my taste.)
And by the same virtue I would entirely happy for somebody to say IC --- "Rosamund your posting history has been consistently in support of the fraction - are you working for constantine now?" If somebody had said this before lighting the nuclear [mod]snip[/mod]web-address option and spiking the thread she might well have confirmed it.
As I have told people ooc there reason I used Rosamund to make that post is that she is roleplayed as a propagandist for hire with a penchant for lowbrow bathos.
Jade Constantine will not make that kind of post because she is the executor of the Star Fraction and directly engaging a character like Merdaneth on his level is simply demeaning.
Now the problem with that thread is people used the web-address thing as "solid IC proof" and questioned Jade by saying "did you post it" and called "Rosamund" -> Jade. Both are entirely untrue. Jade did not post that thread, and nor is Rosamund Jade. In IC terms what happened is that Jade paid Rosamund a sum of isk to have a hatchet job done on a galnet noise.
All this talk of "convictions" is simply counter to the interests of any kind of consenual roleplay here because I as a player simply do not recognize web address stuff as IC evidence and again I as a player do not recognize that Jade and Rosamund are the same characters. We can argue about this stuff but there will no agreement and the outcome will be simply more bad blood between aspects of the "rp community".
[mod]edited to remove expressions of opinion presented as fact. Please read the FAQ [/mod]
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[mod]*snip*[/mod]
The way to understand that statement is that, ICly, one should expect greater flak for ICly decrying a particular type of behavior and then taking part in it.
That seems comprehensible especially as you actually do think a web address underlying an image or link on IGS is content in principle and can therefore always be used to reach IC conclusions (note that in the case of signatures this is problematic because there is no way to define a signature that appears on IGS only). You position is thus that the player in my example simply has to live with the situation.
Which is one view.
However, your remarks do lead me to what I think it the fundamental confusion here: the confusion of actual RP content with data making the display of such content possible.
As far as I am concerned, web addresses are not content OOC. How they can become content IC eludes me.
This is why I think this is a quite different problem to the 'IC private journal' question. That was a debate about the use of material that everyone agrees is content. Whatever your view on it, you don't deny that an IC private journal is content. The debate there is about whether or not the content is privileged in some way and the limits of the privilege. Different debate to this one.
This is much more fundamental as a disagreement: this is an argument between people who view a class of data as content and those who view that class of data as, rather, infrastructure that points to content.
Those who think that web addresses on IGS are content – whether written out plaintext or underlying images or links seems to be neither here nor there let's notice – think that as content in an IC venue it is fine and dandy to draw IC conclusions from them. This makes sense as a concept but I think it has some unfortunate consequences.
Those who think that web addresses are not content (my own view I must say) don't see that it can be possible IC to draw conclusions from data that is simply not IC. It's not even content OOC. So by what alchemy is it is rendered content IC?
Now, Kazzzi asks me how I feel about the example I gave and asks me how it is different to Jade's RP when the character makes accusations, etc.
First, I don't see web addresses as IC content so I don't think it would be fair to reach a conclusion that the two characters of the player in my example are IC connected using the fact that there is a web address connection between the two.
I've been trying to think if I have ever used such a device IC. I cannot remember doing so and I want to say clearly that if I ever have back in the mists of time then I was wrong to do so. I am as sure as I can be that I haven't though.
I am speaking for myself, I must say, and I actually do play the game of counter-espionage quite a lot. So I am reasonably good at drawing linkages simply by virtue of practice. But I do not use OOC linkages that I come to a view about IC. I've never 'outed' any character that I have come to a near certain (sometimes ironclad certain) view about in terms of their links to another character where those links were OOC. I've never seen the point of it. I came a trifle near the knuckle recently, entirely OOCly, but caught myself in time (bad day probably) and I've also never publicly outed in an OOC venue a specific link between characters that I have divined using OOC information. I have sometimes shared information within a close circle and I feel justified in doing so because I've never seen it abused by anyone in that circle. I don't always do so though. For example, very recently I was taken aback by someone actually telling me who their (very different) RP alt was. It was nice to be trusted and I saw and see no reason to tell anyone else about that.
I would hope people may have noted that I never play the 'clonejack' game. (I find the concept faintly absurd to tell the truth.) If it's absolutely clear IC, I will speak of someone being an 'agent' of someone else (or some such rubric) but it takes a lot for me to do it. I can think of only one recent example where it was all quite clear IC what was going on. I have a dim memory of doing it a couple of times in the past where it was IC clear enough. Anyway, basically, I don't do it casually.
So that's me, people can make of it what they will.
As for Jade. Well, I analyze Jade's IC behaviour as follows:
Jade's character uses an entirely IC assessment of character behaviour coupled with any IC evidence that may exist (presence in-game in certain locations where others may be, or employment histories, or near-simultaneity of neocom activation as a pattern, or whatever it may be) and the character makes a declaration of their opinion.
As far as I know right or wrong, IC, it's all IC. People may regard it as ridiculous or unbelievable or plain irritating at their option but... well, it is all IC. My view is that this is Jade's RP as Jade Constantine.
Jade Constantine and The Cosmopolite are, it may have been noticed, entirely different characters and occasionally the characters exasperate one another. The players are less different in outlook than some people appear to imagine.
Anyway, given my view on web addresses, it's different because Jade is not using as 'evidence' something that I simply can't see as IC content – again, largely because I can't see that it is content at all.
Z.Sinraali has it right that the two positions at least make sense when stated (they're both comprehensible) and also has it right there is no adjudication here if it's really the case that people are going to differ on it.
I am genuinely somewhat taken aback that a majority of those commenting seem to think that web addresses underlying images and links on IGS, including in signatures, are IC content.
Surely it is clear that this notion is toxic to many different ways of RPing that are nothing to do with subterfuge or the like but just rely on a reasonable IC separation? Isn't it?
Cosmo
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[mod]*snip*[/mod]
Lets face it there are only 2 previous accusations against my conduct on this issue.
1. The IC journal issue from the post Mito period (authorizing alliance members to respond to anti SF material on an IC journal)
And.
2. Authorizing the destruction of Misan's alt hauler based on incriminating evidence in our alliance channel prior to the battle of Space and Freedom IV.
I honestly can't think of another thing I have ever been accused of doing against IC/OOC divide in Eve.
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Noob question, but whats a clone jack?
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The surefire way to decide if the OOC/IC divide was crossed would be to simply report the post, give a reason why you believe the post is OOC and let CCP decide if they should delete it. I would like it if CCP would clarify if the forum sig and website thing is IC or not.
I did lol at the MERDE pic btw.
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[admin]Thread locked while we decide how to deal with it. I suggest pretty much everyone involved take a good look at the Rules (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?action=page;id=5) and FAQ (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?action=page;id=4) while we're doing that. In particular the parts regarding personal vendettas and the difference between argument and debate.It is also not alright to paraphrase what someone has said to put words in their mouth. If you need clarification, ask for clarification. [/admin]
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[admin]Thread unlocked. As some participants may not have been entirely familiar with the sort of posting that is encouraged on backstage, and it is understandably easy to fall into patterns that are acceptable in many other venues, but not here, all I'm going to do is suggest that people review the FAQ, Mission Statement, and Rules carefully before posting. Consider this an informal warning to all participants.There are also the things that have been moderated, both in this thread and others, to show what is considered unacceptable. Further posts in this thread that require moderation will very likely result in warnings or other administrative action.[/admin]
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Well I'm pretty sure that reduced the word-count of this thread by about a third, and I'm just as sure the vast majority of it (My own edited comments included) was required.
In any case I think I'll just leave an observation on this issue while I still have the ability to be 'First post after the culling': This topic seems to be, in the opinions of those who have opinions on the topic, straight-forward. Neither side seems ready to convince the other within the outlined format of 'debate' as opposed to 'argument' on the FAQ. Not that argument's ever really convinced anyone, though.
I do believe that our views have been represented and communicated, all that's really left will most likely be the kind of bickering that we've been reminded isn't permitted Backstage. I'm going to let this be since I've contributed all I can civilly (And, unfortunately, a little more). I suggest that you, anonymous to me person who is reading this, consider whether you've hit the same spot I have.
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I did not mean this thread to be go into such a heated debate, But what i do see it as... is an opportunity to work together as a community, even with Jade who disagrees , and form a community roleplay code of conduct that we could all strive to follow... it could point out lines of OOC/IC, and just general good conduct of roleplay in eve, and even advice. idea's to develop our characters etc.
What do you all say ?
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Well I think thats probably killed the discussion. If anybody wants to speak plainly about this I'd be happy to continue at Chatsubo. By the by I will point out one of the problems with considering people's ooc webserver resources as important to your IC "convictions" on IGS right now:
I have changed the file names and locations of all the files involved and ensured that the usual IGS suspects are linking posters from World of Tanks - and will continue to change the graphics to be ridiculous ooc things because my web space belongs to me and you all have no right to consider it an IC existence unless I give you permission.
Now I've been decent and reasonable here I think. Other people might have changed the images to something dangerous and indecent and gotten you into trouble with the forum mods. (as I believe happened to Andreus once but I might be wrong).
But I guess it makes the point. Only I and my trusted friends get to link to my paid for and controlled webspace and have the security that the images won't get changed round to make them look ridiculous.
To my eyes there is no valid IC linkage to my ooc webspace and since I can and will ensure that images linked by people against my permission will be randomized in amusing ways to ridicule their IC arguments I suggest next time simply ask me first and respect the IC / OOC divide I follow.
Have a good day.
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It's funny, I read this thread this morning before I left for work, and I composed a literate and witty reply in my head while I was driving.
There was traffic on the highway, and I had more time than I thought.
Anyway, by the time I got to work, it was locked.
Now I feel as if this thread has jumped the shark and my reply is no longer really necessary.
I will say, though, that I agree with Jade that a having a second RP character with a different agenda than your main character is entirely legitimate. I have one, and I usually refer to him as my 'second main' rather than my alt. They can be used to create good and dynamic stories. I think Ms Shaw is clearly different to Jade in that she is clearly played with a dry, satirical sense of humour, something I don't think the character of Jade has. I don't see a problem with this.
On the other hand, I think it's disingenuous to cry foul about the OOC/IC divide on Sabbot's actions. Accusing another character of being an alt is something your character could not possibly think, and always breaks that true IC immersion that many are going for.
The thing is, it's either alway wrong, or always okay. The use of links and web traces or whatever does not enter into the equation. It's no different from other occasions of people (and not just Jade, mind) doing the same thing with others.
Sorry, that's only the beginning of what I'd planned to say, but there's no need to inflame things further. This SF vs the Rest mentality that is developing in the RP community is not really helpful, in my opinion, which is why I tend to leave their IGS posts alone.
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[mod]Thread devolved again, locked permanently.This is not the place for accusations, personal vendettas, etc. It isn't the place to badger someone about their RP choices, seemingly contradictory or not.It is also certainly not the place for threats, and if I see something that looks like a threat - veiled or not - again, the person involved is going to be permanently banned.[/mod]
As a side note, and something that was cut from the discussion further down: CCP has moderated the thread in question on IGS, with indications that the stuff in question was OOC. That's CCPs opinion, and I think we've had most of the useful discussion on this we will have regarding everyone else's opinion.