Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE Character Development => Topic started by: Katrina Oniseki on 06 Jun 2012, 23:35
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Okay, so I think it's time for me to come to the community and ask for help. I've noticed a disturbing trend with my RP growing lately, and I'd like to see what I can do to fix it. Some of the same issues might be restated from previous conversations or posts I've made OOC. This is because they are still an issue. If you have suggested advice before, please don't take this as I have ignored you. I'm either still trying to follow it or have forgotten completely.
The problem is this. I am frustrated with the IC conflict. Considering this is EVE, that's a pretty huge problem since conflict is EVE's shining virtue. I'll start by outlining the reasons I've found this issue keeps popping up in order of importance:
- There is too much of OOC me in IC Katrina's personality. When someone attacks her, it bleeds through.
- Katrina is being played as a well educated and composed Caldari, but I am neither formally well educated nor composed. It is difficult for me to pretend to be either.
- I keep looking for happy-story escapism RP, where EVE is more about conflict RP.
- Katrina both as a character and me as a player may suffer from several of these issues: http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html
Initially I approached this growing problem with apprehension and suspicion, wondering if I even really had a problem with RP. Maybe it was just specific people making things difficult for me, or maybe it was 'just a bad day' to RP. I asked around but didn't really get a defined solution for the problem because I didn't realize what the problem was.
As it got worse and continued to happen, I quickly grew tired of RP and started mocking and abusing the RP system to try and distance myself from what I considered a flawed community. This is most publicly evidenced by my (to quote a friend) "shitposting on the IGS". I thought the RP community was wrong, or maybe full of bittervets, or maybe just plain bad.
Now after finding the above listed issues, I come to the community to ask for advice. How can I make EVE RP more fun for me, while avoiding the frustrating and sometimes depressing issues that seem to plague my attempts? How do I remove myself from Katrina, and enjoy EVE in the dystopian and conflict ridden light it better deserves? How do I play a better Caldari character that isn't just another Gallente stereotype (because I have a very Gallente personality IRL)?
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Reserved so I can reply when you're not blaring music into my ears through some weird witchery since you don't have a mic and I can still hear everything you're playing. Good music selection btw.
Now then proper reply which is going to mirror a lot of what's below me.
How can I make EVE RP more fun for me, while avoiding the frustrating and sometimes depressing issues that seem to plague my attempts?
I think that's really up to you. A storyline or similar arc would be a good place to start. Explore other sides of Kat's nature or her past a bit more. Maybe you'll find something in there that will help you deal with some of the issues you're having.
How do I remove myself from Katrina, and enjoy EVE in the dystopian and conflict ridden light it better deserves?
The way I do this with Simca is to use certain parts of my personality depending on the situation she's in while still keeping her own past and motivations in the picture. It's a bit of a balancing act, but it works well for me. Maybe try to distance your personality from Kat in most situations, and only giving up all of it in certain situations. You could also have something develop that separates her from you or causes a divide in how she acts.
How do I play a better Caldari character that isn't just another Gallente stereotype (because I have a very Gallente personality IRL)?
Honestly, on this point I think you do a good job. If all the EVE characters were stereotypical it'd be a bit boring. Kat is an open minded Caldari, and IMO there's nothing wrong with that. If you want to make her a bit more Caldari you could, but I don't really see anything wrong with how you play her now.
Also, I fail at forum fu so this might not be very helpful, but we can talk when you get home if you want. :D
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This is a really tough situation and one that is really only resolved through practice, patience and experience.
To be honest, so long as there's a lot of yourself invested in your character, you're going to find the separation a bit more difficult. Everyone invests a little bit of themselves into their characters over time, there's really no way around that unless you make a character so completely opposite of yourself that you can't attach to them (but most people then don't enjoy the RP), but the more of yourself there is in your character the harder the OOC/IC divide becomes to maintain.
What keeps me going about the IC conflict is really just coming up with a motivation for your character that doesn't require the conflict to end, but rather just accomplish a goal within it. For example, Malcolm focuses on defense of the State's systems and anti-piracy, his goals don't require the war to end nor for pirates to be eliminated - but it gives him something to push for within the framework of a neverending conflict.
As far as the education and composition part goes, yes it's very hard to fake an education but I honestly think you're doing fine. When Katrina isn't in a bad mood, she tends to be quite clearly spoken and composed. Keep in mind that an education does not require that your character use fancy words or know a lot about everything.
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I am currently in a similar (yet different) situation.
- Firstly I do not think that you are bad at arguing or anything like you always say. I find Kat's answers on the IGS quite composed (not speaking about the "trolling ones" mind you, but the serious ones). The I-RED PR announcements for example, were handled and answered with a good insight and a lot of wit in my opinion.
- As Mal said, you do not need to be a real expert scholar about things your character is knowlegeable about. I always say that if you want to play a mighty combat pilot that is a legend at capsuleer combat, you should definitly be good at pvp for that. In the same vein, if you play a character that is a science genius, you better be good at science. But it does not mean that you have to be a quantum nobel price either. As long as you can fake it and make it sound believable, without sounding clunky or illogical, its ok, I think. Hell, that is what I do with Lyn that is supposed to be a living library. Yet I am sure that a lot of people are a lot more knowlegeable about the lore than myself, I am pretty sure that a lot of people are more cultured than myself (I am 25 IRL, how could I be a paragon of culture ? I do not read 10 books per day). Of course, though, I still play her that way because I have the basic capacities to do it, or I hope so. After all, she may have the knowledge (even if she thinks otherwise), that does not mean that she has the wisdom going along with it. Mal ICly said something that I found pretty nice on the IGS : "You believe yourself to have achieved a higher state of learning but you have forsaken the purpose of learning." Not completely true, still, but pretty close to the true picture. My point is that even a strong feature of a character can be turned into a weakness, a flaw. Make use of that. It is even easier as a lot of us play young characters. Young people tend to be more inclined to mistakes, less composed arguments.
- For the IC/OOC separation, it is not easy, yes. I always feel a little hurt when I read some answers on the IGS from time to time, but then I think I managed to create a good automatic and unconscious reaction that makes me think after a few moments : "Hey, it is not you. It makes the character more interesting and forged through drama, imperfection, and helps to flesh her out 10 times better than a world where everyone are friends." It is not conflict that I dislike. Actually, I think I almost enjoy it for my RP. What I am afraid of, sometimes almost visceraly, is for my character to be litterally ostracized, out of that "everyone is a friend society" that we find a lot on the Summit, for example. It was not the case before, but now considering the current situation on the IGS and the Summit, I have to admit that I am worried, and it stains any RP I can make because I keep that in mind every time and it is not very healthy. I am not sure how it is for you, but I hope your problem is the first issue, and not mine (the latter), because for mine, I do not even see a way to get out of it.
- I sometimes abhor that GSF syndrome that always ends up in "everyone are friends" and eventually in a community of "best buddies" ostracizing people that do not fit in their mould. Seriphyn is a good example of it, and I have never understood why. Rodj may be another one too, considering that most people spit on his posts on the IGS. Somehow, the people that create characters that fit the most to the eve universe and are extremely different from our western RL society and social populist mindsets, are the most vulnerable to being ostracized. I may be wrong, but thats my feeling. Then of course, you have all the marie sues and special snowflakes, but they are another story, the opposite side of the mirror.
So yes in short I understand. It is always a question to find a balance between creating conflict by disagreeing with people, or even more, threatening them, without being seen as the biggest asshole of the cluster by everyone (because most of them are all friends and always agree with each other, and loyalties to friendship go before everything, especially ideals, remember ? :gsf:).
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Forgot to add that not because you play a Caldari originated character then your character HAS to be the perfect embodiment of the Caldari culture.
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Hey Kat :D
I have gone through a similar place before - mainly the way I was RP'ing before I took my extended break from EVE
The thing I found that helped me get out of the issues I was in was to stop taking anything in EVE seriously.
And I mean literally everything, this is a game which I play to ENJOY and I get enjoyment out of interactions with people mostly, and some of the gameplay (Whole different thread required for that :P) and as such I take the stress element out but just treating everything in game as a disposable toy, loose a Capital? Whoop whoop! that fight was AWESOME.
Attacked in RP? lol, challenge accepted \o/
tl:dr is that EVE is supposed to be fun, enjoyed and worth the time spent there, don't make it hard on yourself by getting so buried in the sand that you forget to look up and remember whats fun about it all, it took me nearly a years break to finally get that into my head, so hopefully it doesn't take that long for you :3 We need all the awesome peeps we can right now :D
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- There is too much of OOC me in IC Katrina's personality. When someone attacks her, it bleeds through.
- Katrina is being played as a well educated and composed Caldari, but I am neither formally well educated nor composed. It is difficult for me to pretend to be either.
- I keep looking for happy-story escapism RP, where EVE is more about conflict RP.
#1: If you want to change this, try to give your character some flaws, edges or twists that you do not have OOCly, but that aren't as big as to alienate yourself from her. What Malcolm said is true, if you play 'against your nature' it may become too difficult and not fun to play at all, which is kind of a big deal for a main character. The Caldari stereotypes that can be flirted with might work well for this, even the liberal ones.
About attacks bleeding through: When in doubt, try to talk OOCly to the person in question. Aside from that there's nothing that helps but to try and memorize that IC attacks are not aimed at yourself as a player. I know, there are people who're not that good at the divide, or are using it to a means to an end, but I think that this is not the majority.
#2: I'm not under the impression that you fail in this department. About being composed, ie serious, all the time: This can be a struggle for the character. It might be something that not you, but Kat wants to uphold, but might fail from time to time.
Take Des, she's often far too vitriolic for her own aspirations.
#3: Happy-story-escapism is best had in private, with friends and allies. EVE is all about conflict, which has its upsides and downsides.
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First, I've always had a good impression of Kat and think you're doing just fine. We all reach points where things no longer work for us the way they used to or the way we want them to, and you shouldn't view that frustration or any changes you try out to relieve it as something negative. I see a lot of good advise from others in this thread already, so I won't try to compare, but if you don't like what you're doing, don't do it.
Think up a fun storyline to pursue with Kat that will give you some escapist satisfaction, arrange some things with IC antagonists, and go for it. Change up corps. Go pirate, rethink your ways, and seek redemption. Along the way there is plenty of room to mold Kat a little more closely to your own personality (VERY important if your goal is escapism so RP doesn't always feel like a chore or a challenge) and you'll have a change of scenery along the way.
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These are a lot of good replies, and I don't have a reply for all of them thought up yet. I'm kinda soaking it all up right now. I have to go to work, otherwise I'd give a proper reply right now, but thank you all for the posts. So far you've all been really helpful.
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"There is too much of OOC me in IC Katrina's personality. When someone attacks her, it bleeds through."
Of the two characters I've "seriously" played in EVE -- Kyber and Renaud -- both caricature separate parts of my personality; they take them and run with them to extremes. Kyber takes my interest in physics and tendency to lose patience with politics, whereas Renaud mostly got my tendency to be what someone once so elegantly described as, er, "a vapid prettyboy". I think part of it arose from the same idea Malcolm touched upon: I wanted characters that were different enough to interest me, but close enough to remain relatable.
Some people prefer to keep no elements of their real personality in characters, but I've found to use a very small cross section useful; it lets me play them with greater confidence that they're behaving realistically, but more relevantly, it means I don't particularly get upset OOC if somebody attacks them. The qualities used are ones that can cause people to get wound up, and hey, who cares? I've turned them up to 11 in both characters. Rather than putting large sections of "true-to-life" OOC personality in, perhaps just toying with small elements of your personality would work? I'm not sure of the details, but I found it to work well (and EVE is the first and only place I've RPed).
Katrina is being played as a well educated and composed Caldari, but I am neither formally well educated nor composed. It is difficult for me to pretend to be either.
I see a couple of ways that this could be fixed. The first would be to not worry if sometimes the façade slips; Kat(c) is only human, and who can blame her if she's not constantly the image of composure?
A second would be to not play her like that anymore; a particular catalyst may drive her personality to move slightly away from that, for instance -- Ken had some good ideas on that front.
I keep looking for happy-story escapism RP, where EVE is more about conflict RP.
You can have both. The former works much better in private settings (e.g. that housewarming doodad a while ago: those there were as diverse as it gets, politically, but it was a pretty calm social event). The latter is a great change of pace with people outside those circles that you still enjoy RPing with, I found.
Katrina both as a character and me as a player may suffer from several of these issues: http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html
The best characters have flaws. A few of those in Katrina shouldn't hurt too much, and if anything can provide a bit of RP in getting around them if you feel so inclined.
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I'm not sure how helpful this was and how much of it was just a rephrasing of previous posters' comments, but I enjoyed RPing with Katrina when I was in game, so hopefully it's of some utility.
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Oniseki will eventually accept her own desire for personal empowerment and self-actualization.
The first step is the most difficult, Oniseki. We'll be waiting with open arms when you embrace your destiny
Heehee.
I think you are doing just fine. IRED is doing their own thing independent of the 'main' plot and should be commended.
The most fun stories you will have are the ones you create, don't forget.
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My quick $0.02:
- There is too much of OOC me in IC Katrina's personality. When someone attacks her, it bleeds through.
Remember it's just a toon in a bizarre setting, it's not you, and most people probably wouldn't react to you the same way IRL(well, maybe :p)
- Katrina is being played as a well educated and composed Caldari, but I am neither formally well educated nor composed. It is difficult for me to pretend to be either.
Here's where I find the lag of our communication in Eve to help out a bit, spend a bit of time to really think about how Katrina would phrase something, or do a quick Google thesaurus search if needed. This has helped me with Mitty anway, ymmv.
- I keep looking for happy-story escapism RP, where EVE is more about conflict RP.
As others have said, this is best done in a more private setting, Summit isn't going to help you here most likely.
- Katrina both as a character and me as a player may suffer from several of these issues: http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html
Is that so bad? I say run with it :)
I've enjoyed Mitty's interactions with Katrina, Mitty appreciates that Katrina has demonstrated at least some knowledge and interest in proper Amarrian culture, which Mitty sees as Katrina trying to better herself by trying to learn the *right* way to live :)
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If you want my honest unadulterated opinion (dont worry, not dropping a bomb) I think Kat's become less serious and fall too much into quasi-bittervet syndrome.
If you'e worried your char has a style you cant do, practice, if you consider channel RP to be that important. Or :insertlifechangingevent: if its really unbearble. Or dont channel RP.
Maybe give the IGS a wide berth, its an unhealthy place.
Most importantly, and on a more general note, don't look for drama, stick with I-RED and remember that RP is only meaningful when it comes from doing stuff in space
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Gottii, IC, uses the IGS, in a couple of ways.
1.) Find people to shoot/enemies of the Minmatar/people to set red. Always important for a NRDS pvp pilot. ("ok, dude claims to own slaves, i'll keep an eye on him in local)
2.) general lay of the capsuleer land ( "whos that guy?" "which new space lesbian is this?" etc)
3.) say things the he feels needs to be said, even if he would rather not and finds it tedious, but a duty to do so ( ex: keeping some Minmatar from getting too close with the Caldari enemy, speaking up (or presuming to anyway) for slaves in the Empire, etc)
Thats about it. Its not a place to make friends really. Generally, its a place to find enemies.
Also, keep in mind, if you play your character the right way in EVE, someone will think of him or her as the "bad guy". Thats great. Means youre doing it the right way, and in a realistic manner.
I have far more OOC regard for some of Gottiis IC enemies than I do for many of the characters who would rather be Gottiis IC friends. Ive pressed F1 on some of the players I think the most of. Same thing with confronting them/arguing with them on the IGS/in game. Thats whats EVE's about.
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Kat, im in a really similar boat. A lot of Amanda bleeds into Ava, and it makes it difficult for me to maintain IC/OOC seperation at times. It dosent help that, like me, Ava isnt particularly bright, and that she cant participate in 75% or so of RP that happens in public channels simply because she (and I) dont understand whats even going on. When I feel myself getting upset, I usually just try to step away for a while. Parts of Ava are very "not" Amanda, so I try to focus on those a bit more, so responses wont seem so personal.
Im drifting into sarcastic bittervet/rage about RP territory too. After the last dogpile on Ava on IGS by my own alliance mates, Im debating just saying fuck RP in general. I RP with Kala and Tabor, and ocassionally Esna, Rin, and Aldrith outside of the Summit. That's it. I have a Minmatar toon that only two minmatar players seem to want to talk to or have anything to do with. It sucks. I'm with you here, and hey, if you wanna RP, im here. Best I Can offer with regards to that I guess.
Short answer? Find a group of people you like and stick with them. Im about to say the hell with "IC reasons" and just start playing with whoever I want, as maintaining that IC/OOC divide hasnt done any good anyway. Great. Ava sticks to her guns. And Amanda plays a RP character with no one to RP with.
Unless the RP community in EVE gets a little more open and willing to interract with each other (As friends, enemies, whatever) I dont see it lasting long.
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As noted in the Minmatar party thread, Casiella's snark is entirely IC and I plan on making some RP changes to be able to interact a little more with the community ICly soon.
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Kat, im in a really similar boat. A lot of Amanda bleeds into Ava, and it makes it difficult for me to maintain IC/OOC seperation at times. It dosent help that, like me, Ava isnt particularly bright, and that she cant participate in 75% or so of RP that happens in public channels simply because she (and I) dont understand whats even going on. When I feel myself getting upset, I usually just try to step away for a while. Parts of Ava are very "not" Amanda, so I try to focus on those a bit more, so responses wont seem so personal.
Im drifting into sarcastic bittervet/rage about RP territory too. After the last dogpile on Ava on IGS by my own alliance mates, Im debating just saying fuck RP in general. I RP with Kala and Tabor, and ocassionally Esna, Rin, and Aldrith outside of the Summit. That's it. I have a Minmatar toon that only two minmatar players seem to want to talk to or have anything to do with. It sucks. I'm with you here, and hey, if you wanna RP, im here. Best I Can offer with regards to that I guess.
Short answer? Find a group of people you like and stick with them. Im about to say the hell with "IC reasons" and just start playing with whoever I want, as maintaining that IC/OOC divide hasnt done any good anyway. Great. Ava sticks to her guns. And Amanda plays a RP character with no one to RP with.
Unless the RP community in EVE gets a little more open and willing to interract with each other (As friends, enemies, whatever) I dont see it lasting long.
Somewhere I find myself guilty of what happened for a good part of it since I, the player, and then, Lyn, the character, intended from A to Z to actually provoke Ava, the character, to see her alliance mates for what they really are, since Lyn knows them quite well dating back to 2007 and occasionally here and there on the timeline coming after. So, yes, it was perfectly calculated and it... seemed somehow to have worked ? But only ICly, since OOCly it did not went well at all it seems. And I do not know what to say other than I probably missed the picture of the OOC human potential drama that could ensue.
It is always the issue with that game when you fight against someone, be it in a conventionnal war or anything else. The best way to win is not through weapons and ingame actions contrary to the common belief that actions speak louder than words. Well, I may be the only one (and Lyn too) to believe in the opposite too ? Not sure, but divide and conquer all the way on the IGS, its what works best here. Not that I deny the first one either, but I think people put too little value on the power of words, relations, manipulation, etc. Play on people's feelings, sometimes it works amazingly well. Lyn used the exact same lever to move things in the way she wanted when she was in kotmc, but with a mitigated success at best. It was not totally calculated and conscious OOCly and ICly, but she really looked for a confrontation with PIE Inc and was ready to answer to Silas' BS duel. Here it is more or less the same idea behind it : her enemies are Minmatar supporting the Elders and Minmatar hardliners, in short, everything that is not midularist more or less. Trying to point out their differences is the best way to weaken an enemy. Why enemies ? Because she is a fervent CONCORD zealous supporter and will do anything to hunt the Elders down for great justice.
I am not really at ease to admit that Lyn is far from being the innocent thing she pretends to be and that her character has to have hidden agendas she has never even spoken about to anyone. She is SoCT and a bit wicked after all. But considering that I hate betraying anyone OOCly (and I think it is the first time it happens like that), well, I really feel sorry. And this may be because of that fact that I tell you that. So I wanted to apologized and also tell you not to give up.
I am drifting into sarcastic bittervet rage about RP territory too, but in a different way, where I see everyone trying to be buddy with everyone else and perfectly knowing it is because we lack of critical mass and at the same time I can't resolve to do the same and that makes me rage inside.
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TBH this is an extremely relevant topic for all of us as players and RP'ers, not just for you specifically, Kat.
I agree with what Lyn just said, especially about us being against each other. We are playing a game, and our characters are pitted against each other. We as PLAYERS are too. We are not pitted against each other as PEOPLE however. We should be a bunch of friends sitting at a table, on opposite sides of the board but all having fun no matter who is losing or winning. Besides, there is no end to this game, so you can never truly win or lose. Make friends, laugh, and poke fun in the OOC channels, but in character and in-game, we are allowed (nay, encouraged) to be as ruthless as we want. Welcome to EVE. Have fun.
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I have a Minmatar toon that only two minmatar players seem to want to talk to or have anything to do with. It sucks. I'm with you here, and hey, if you wanna RP, im here. Best I Can offer with regards to that I guess.
You could stop by the Lutinari public channel. Lots of Minmatar talk there generally.
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TBH this is an extremely relevant topic for all of us as players and RP'ers, not just for you specifically, Kat.
I agree with what Lyn just said, especially about us being against each other. We are playing a game, and our characters are pitted against each other. We as PLAYERS are too. We are not pitted against each other as PEOPLE however. We should be a bunch of friends sitting at a table, on opposite sides of the board but all having fun no matter who is losing or winning. Besides, there is no end to this game, so you can never truly win or lose. Make friends, laugh, and poke fun in the OOC channels, but in character and in-game, we are allowed (nay, encouraged) to be as ruthless as we want. Welcome to EVE. Have fun.
Nonsense, Im against you Aldy, and your hippie hair.
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@_@ HOW DO YOU KNOW I HAVE HIPPIE HAIR IRL?!
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This is a very interesting post! On some level I think it is impossible to play something you are not, however removed or remote from the “real you” that something may be. Building positive, or at least stable, relationships in Eve can be complicated and frustrating, just like in “reality”. Occasionally it is difficult to overcome the desire to interact with characters “you” like, but with whom the “other you” would not. What dealings I have had with you IC'ly and OOC'ly have been appropriate to the storyline and fun as a bonus, so don’t be so hard on yourself. Oh, and my apologies for all the “”’s.
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I'm going to echo earlier advice and say that some distance between yourself and your character is a good thing. It lets you pause, think and find poise when Kat's getting attacked, too, rather than instinctively going on the defensive. There's an art to this, though, because too much is denying yourself what I feel is one of the main draws of roleplaying - living through your character a little. I think that roleplay should be fun, not just dispassionate performance art.
A similar balancing act comes with characterization. You'd want your character to be self-consistent, and to some degree fitting other people's notions of how a capsuleer of the stripe you've chosen should act; fitting in with others creates instant kinship, and having recognizable hooks and quirks helps streamline all sorts of interactions. On the other side of the coin, these things can become straightjackets that impede your character's development, and your own fun. One of the more toxic ideas I've noticed in the roleplay venues I frequent is the notion that once you've come up with a character concept, or committed to one idea, you're not allowed to deviate from it significantly even if it's obviously become maladaptive. People, real or imagined, can and do change their ideas and approaches to things.
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The following is what I usually recommend to people when the IC/OOC question comes up and might be relevant to Katrina as well.
-Role-models, research and writing. Take someone you know, or a fictional character, or a celebrity, and try to think through their eyes. Try to choose people who are easy to emulate. How do they speak, walk or meet new people? What phrases do they use? Long or short sentences? What annoys them and why? What things do they support and why? Build small scenes, just 5-20 lines long, where the role-model explains something to an audience. Can you make every phrase and action support the personality of the character? It helps with IC/OOC divide if your character's personality is based on research, built up methodically and you know what has gone in them.
-Design more characters and play alts. If this is a problem for your main, make them short-lived or unknown to anyone else. Make them all different from each other. Knowing the differences between the characters helps you to create distance between them and you.
-Make a conscious attempt to avoid including anything from your RL personality to the character. Negate your own traits and do research on how to be coherent with these traits. The attempt will inevitably fail, since you made up the whole thing, but it's going to fail ever more otherwise. Trying to choose what to include and what not to include from yourself doesn't seem to work well in my opinion. Your IRL self will win more ground over time and you're likely to drop the role under pressure. Easier to start with coherence and consistency than patchwork.
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Kat,
First, I love RPing with Kat and think that she comes across very well on the IGS. Bear in mind I have a character in both I-RED and the FCO and I thought you did very well in the IC discussion with Bastian.
Like you, parts of me bleed into all my characters and I think that's inevitable. I think both Mammal and Val represent different sides of my personality, though it's become less fun to RP Mammal of late because most of the flaws and insecurities appear in Val. Mammal is starting to feel like glorious wish fulfillment.
I still however, get invested even in alts when arguing on the IGS.
I remember an occasion when playing one of those alts, delivering a deliberately inflammatory opinion with which I OOCly didn't agree at all, but still becoming annoyed when people disagreed. I had to remind myself that not only was I posting with this character to explore ideas I hated and to try to humanise them, but that I shouldn't become upset when ideas I hate are hated by others. It just means that my RP experiment is working.
So, that level of investment is normal, I think, even with characters that aren't at all like you.
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I think Kyber pretty much hit the nail on the head with this one. When making a character, you will in general always throw in some of your own out of character personality traits into the mix. This is not a bad thing out of hand, though. You can make your character unique and entirely different from you by putting spin on these traits and watching where the roleplay leads them. For example, I amplify my real-life tendency to whiteknight when playing Rek to the point that he gets into scenarios that simply would not happen to me in reality, and this leads to events which shape him in a way that makes him entirely different to me after some months. I'm sure you can do the same with Katrina!
As far as wanting happy-story RP, I'm in the same boat as you. EVE is not a game you can "win", and after finally getting around to reading Templar One I've realized CCP pretty much wants the EVE universe to be grimdark-flavored with extra grimdark. As has been said by others though, in smaller more private scenes you can definitely have some heartwarming stuff!
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RE: Grimdark with a side of grimdark
Like this? (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Warhammer_40k_Wiki) Pretty sure this is a huge influence for EVE's setting.
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Wall o' text!
It's been a long time since I was on Backstage. This thread was suggested to me today as something to look at to potentially help me out because I just recently had an IC/OOC issue too. Thank you for starting this thread where others can see, and for everyone else for posting such a variety of feedback. There's a great deal here I will endeavor to keep in mind.
I'd like to offer my thoughts too, because the event I experienced pushed me to where I almost quit EVE entirely, which would have been sad for me. You don't sound like you're at that point, but even so it's not something I'd wish on other people.
- There is too much of OOC me in IC Katrina's personality. When someone attacks her, it bleeds through.
I can appreciate where you're coming from. I just can't fathom not being at least partially close to Sak. If I can't empathize with what she's going through, how will I ever know how she would realistically react? Maybe this also has something to do with the fact I still feel like an RP n00b after a year and a half of RPing, who knows.
But the downside to investing in your character is definitely that things bleed through. If Sakaane is pissed, I'm often pissed too. If she's hurting, I'm hurting. On the other hand, when she's happy, I'm happy too, and generally, she's happy a lot, so maybe I've found some of that escapism you're looking for. But I can (and do) push the envelope with her, where she feels fine but I feel a little guilty about something she did. So, really, ultimately Kat is your character. Play her how it feels natural for you to play her, even if that means adjusting some of her established mannerisms to make it easier or more fun for you going forward. If you can only go so far with her before drawing the line, that's perfectly fine.
Dealing with bleedthrough takes practice, as I've learned. You may not be able to ever get rid of it. Most people want to be liked and accepted by everyone else, perhaps particularly by other players we admire (or whose characters we admire). There was talk about "buddy-buddy RP", and while EVE isn't (or shouldn't be) a popularity contest, it's still a community. A community where people hate each other forever and thrive on conflict is something I feel goes against our basic nature. We wouldn't really form corporations or alliances otherwise, even though sometimes these things do exist solely because it's convenient.
But through conflict we usually want an outcome that is better than before the conflict, so an inherent desire does exist to get along. Yes, it is a game, and 100 years from now it won't matter, so try to have fun with your reaction!
- Katrina is being played as a well educated and composed Caldari, but I am neither formally well educated nor composed. It is difficult for me to pretend to be either.
Even though I've had only very little exposure to Kat I have to agree with everyone else: you do very well at characterizing her. There is a difference between being book-smart and having intelligence. Regardless of how book-smart you think you are, you are obviously an intelligent person, and that comes through to Kat. In my opinion I think this is much better than having her be a talking encyclopedia.
- I keep looking for happy-story escapism RP, where EVE is more about conflict RP.
Lots of people suggested private settings with friends for this. I'd like to add something different: use a different venue like IC blogging or writing an actual story. (Maybe you've done this already, but based on other's comments the impression I have is that you spend most of your time RPing on forums and in chat channels.) Happy-story escapism RP might still need a conflict to start it that Kat can overcome to achieve that happiness, but this can be conflict you create against yourself, so there will be no bleedthrough. Your friends can contribute by guiding you on how their characters would act within the narrative, but ultimately the one in control of the plot is you.
- Katrina both as a character and me as a player may suffer from several of these issues: http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html
Flaws are good. Flaws make people real. You don't want to be a cardboard cutout. :)
When I was feeling my worst about how RP stuff was going, taking a break was the best thing. I only left for a month. I didn't distance myself from my character; I took her with me and distanced myself from the situation. That gave me a chance to think about everything that was going on with a lot less pressure to do anything about it, because IC she was also "away". It let me think more objectively about her, my own behavior through her, and what I could do about it IC and OOC. Coming out of it I probably have a bit more IC/OOC divide than before, but I'll always be invested in her. And I'm okay with that. If you can be okay being as invested in Katrina as you are it might help lighten the burden you feel. You might still fall on your face now and again (I fully expect I will) but like I said: it'll take practice. But hopefully you can still enjoy your character and her story in the meantime.
Hope it helps.
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In contrast to what many people here seem to be advising, I'd like to state that bleed through is not acceptable. Keeping the IC/OOC division up is not easy, but it does matter. When out of character issues take over, a fun RP discussion turns into a therapy session. It completely spoils the idea. It's not just about your character and your experience, you're affecting the immersion of the people you are playing with. No one is perfect, there is always room for improvement and sometimes bleed through is just too difficult to avoid but heavens forbid it should not be presented as the new standard of role-playing.
Also, taking the setting into account is helpful. It's not just about the costume but how the character is from the inside. New Eden is a dark, harsh universe where nothing comes easily. The unambitious and gullible are exploited and stomped to the ground. Capsuleers are members of its elite, with access to unfathomable resources, capable and guilty of killing thousands without punishment. Can you see them whining about nice tones of voice and friendship, just for the sake of it? All EVE's character types are antagonists, they have attributes which most players would consider repulsive. These attributes help you to keep reality and fiction separated, they give your character depth and realism and it's generally not good for role-playing to leave these aspects out. They are there for a purpose.
Again, what I'm suggesting here is not really directed to Katrina. I'm a big fan of the grey shades she was casting in the latest I-RED thread and I hope we'll see more of that sort in the future.
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In contrast to what many people here seem to be advising, I'd like to state that bleed through is not acceptable. Keeping the IC/OOC division up is not easy, but it does matter.
I'd agree that bleed-through can undermine RP; I'd stop short of saying "unacceptable" since in mild instances I've not noticed it, and would add that taking elements of your own personality as a starting point doesn't immediately invite it.
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I experience a lot of the same things from time to time Kat. For me, I'm wonder if I've outgrown RPing. I wasn't old enough to drink 2004, but now I'm creeping ever closer to thirty.
Is it something similar for you?
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Many of us are horrified to learn that RP stopped being acceptable when we turned 30 years ago. :p
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In contrast to what many people here seem to be advising, I'd like to state that bleed through is not acceptable. Keeping the IC/OOC division up is not easy, but it does matter. When out of character issues take over, a fun RP discussion turns into a therapy session. It completely spoils the idea. It's not just about your character and your experience, you're affecting the immersion of the people you are playing with. No one is perfect, there is always room for improvement and sometimes bleed through is just too difficult to avoid but heavens forbid it should not be presented as the new standard of role-playing.
Also, taking the setting into account is helpful. It's not just about the costume but how the character is from the inside. New Eden is a dark, harsh universe where nothing comes easily. The unambitious and gullible are exploited and stomped to the ground. Capsuleers are members of its elite, with access to unfathomable resources, capable and guilty of killing thousands without punishment. Can you see them whining about nice tones of voice and friendship, just for the sake of it? All EVE's character types are antagonists, they have attributes which most players would consider repulsive. These attributes help you to keep reality and fiction separated, they give your character depth and realism and it's generally not good for role-playing to leave these aspects out. They are there for a purpose.
Again, what I'm suggesting here is not really directed to Katrina. I'm a big fan of the grey shades she was casting in the latest I-RED thread and I hope we'll see more of that sort in the future.
I disagree on some aspects and would be interested in covering the discussion in another thread.
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... I am neither formally well educated nor composed. It is difficult for me to pretend to be either.
This came up a couple of times. Here's how to pretend to be an academic:
-If the topic of the discussion coincides with your supposed area of expertise, appeal to your credentials, appeal to the complexity of the matter, focus on the mistakes others are making, cite what someone else has said about the thing. Avoid making any statements of your own because this might harm your credibility.
-If the topic of the discussion is remotely similar to your area of expertise, simplify it, call it a triviality, tell about your friends who are experts in this thing. Making big statements which are wrong is safe because this is not exactly your area of expertise. If you happen to win the argument, add it on your list credentials.
-Have friends who positively affirm your authority, preferably in public.
-Play a music instrument, or have a funny hair or something that people can compliment and say that he/she is truly a remarkable person!
-As always, stay out of discussions which are not relevant to your character.
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That's some great advice, Bastian!
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... I am neither formally well educated nor composed. It is difficult for me to pretend to be either.
This came up a couple of times. Here's how to pretend to be an academic:
-If the topic of the discussion coincides with your supposed area of expertise, appeal to your credentials, appeal to the complexity of the matter, focus on the mistakes others are making, cite what someone else has said about the thing. Avoid making any statements of your own because this might harm your credibility.
-If the topic of the discussion is remotely similar to your area of expertise, simplify it, call it a triviality, tell about your friends who are experts in this thing. Making big statements which are wrong is safe because this is not exactly your area of expertise. If you happen to win the argument, add it on your list credentials.
-Have friends who positively affirm your authority, preferably in public.
-Play a music instrument, or have a funny hair or something that people can compliment and say that he/she is truly a remarkable person!
-As always, stay out of discussions which are not relevant to your character.
This would be terrible advice for real life, but it's amusing how useful it is in RolePlay. xD
On another note, I've begun making small changes to Katrina's character. I'm helping her be more rough around the edges and open to combative discussion. I'm looking at EVE as less of a happy RP place and more a place to play out conflicts. I'm also giving her some stronger convictions and such that are seperate from me personally to help solidify that OOC/IC divide. For example, I even agreed with Diana Kim IC about how nobody is born equal.
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I even agreed with Diana Kim IC
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/268/716/545.png)
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Update:
Spurred on partly by an OOC promotion in I-RED, but also by my previous difficulties in playing Katrina, she has become much more militant and combative. She's got a shorter fuse, quicker to snap and sneer. She's unapologetic about her loyalties and opinions, and she's more than willing to shoot you out of the sky.
She still is a sweetheart if you already know her, or if you put forth the effort to be an intelligent and productive member of society. She has that huge soft side at home which can be seen by any characters visiting their house still, thanks to Simca.
I'd say that Mitara Newelle is a small inspiration for how I'm going to begin separating and compartmentalizing my need for happy RP and the strength to thrive in EVE's dystopian RP scene. As someone put it, Mitty is a kitten with Aldrith only but a lioness everywhere else. I hope to emulate that with Katrina by shutting off most of the public examples of Kat's soft side, reserving it for private RP as suggested.
In an effort to distance myself from Kat to ease the IC/OOC burden, I mentioned she's unapologetic. She is growing strongly Caldari in nature again, and is passionate about her support for the Liberal agenda as I see it. This is to note that she doesn't see the Caldari as friends with the Federation or Republic or Empire. Business is business, and she believes that the path to a stronger State is through relatively cooperative free trade with foreign powers.
The darker truth behind her smiles and handshakes is that she does in fact think:
* The Amarr Empire is a dangerous ally and one that should be kept at arm's length.
* The Minmatar Republic is a pathetic social mess barely worthy of respect.
* The Gallente Federation is an increasingly insufferable mass of pompous buffoons.
* The Caldari State under the control of Heth represents a grave threat to both Ishukone and her..
TL;DR, she doesn't really like anybody but Ishukone and Hyasyoda. Anyone not of those two megacorps is someone she will always view with a measure of suspicion and caution. I'm going to start writing in some light dashes of ethnocentric bias and make it more difficult for her to get along with non Caldari.
It's also worth noting that she never says "Saisieni, Summit" anymore. She no longer considers outsiders her kin worthy of her native tongue. Unless the person is Caldari, she will not consider them kin without the person first demonstrating they deserve that respect by both supporting and -fighting for- the State and Ishukone.
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TL;DR, she doesn't really like anybody but Ishukone and Hyasyoda. Anyone not of those two megacorps is someone she will always view with a measure of suspicion and caution. I'm going to start writing in some light dashes of ethnocentric bias and make it more difficult for her to get along with non Caldari.
Question: what exactly is her issue with a Heth-led Caldari government? Is it more that he is opposed to Ishukone or are there other reasons? It's a fascinating contradiction you have built in there.
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The darker truth behind her smiles and handshakes is that she does in fact think:
* The Amarr Empire is a dangerous ally and one that should be kept at arm's length.
* The Minmatar Republic is a pathetic social mess barely worthy of respect.
* The Gallente Federation is an increasingly insufferable mass of pompous buffoons.
* The Caldari State under the control of Heth represents a grave threat to both Ishukone and her..
Khanid Kingdom... beneath her notice. :)
I'm glad to hear things are looking up. I find it adds to my RP immensely when I have a strong, well-defined vision for a character.
Makkal and her haven’t yet managed to have an actual conversation, but she’s a pleasure to watch whenever she comes out of the shadows to public venues.
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Kat.
I-LIKE.
:cube:
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Question: what exactly is her issue with a Heth-led Caldari government? Is it more that he is opposed to Ishukone or are there other reasons? It's a fascinating contradiction you have built in there.
If you think it's weird for a loyal Caldari to not like Heth, you haven't been paying attention to the Caldari RP scene for the last six years. Most Provisit characters, with exception of Dana Kim, that come on the scene don't stay long. Either they leave RP or leave eve. I've a theory that the type of person who finds that part of Eve's story interesting is the sort th
That being said, there are one or two small groups in the Caldari Militia that seem to be provist rpers based on corp/alliance (Templis Dragonaors) info, but I think that's more the case of the CEOs reading the FW book TEA when they made a FW corp and not that they are actually RP corps.
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I like this new, harder Kat. Almost sounds like a proper Patriot (in Liberal clothing). ;)
Question: what exactly is her issue with a Heth-led Caldari government? Is it more that he is opposed to Ishukone or are there other reasons? It's a fascinating contradiction you have built in there.
If you think it's weird for a loyal Caldari to not like Heth, you haven't been paying attention to the Caldari RP scene for the last six years. Most Provisit characters, with exception of Dana Kim, that come on the scene don't stay long. Either they leave RP or leave eve. I've a theory that the type of person who finds that part of Eve's story interesting is the sort th
the sort th-- The sort that what?? :o
That being said, there are one or two small groups in the Caldari Militia that seem to be provist rpers based on corp/alliance (Templis Dragonaors) info, but I think that's more the case of the CEOs reading the FW book TEA when they made a FW corp and not that they are actually RP corps.
Fairly certain Templis Dragonaors is named so just for flavor. If their pilots RP, I haven't seen it in the last month of flying the warzone.
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When do you intend to hire Charlize Theron for the related movie ?
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I've a theory that the type of person who finds that part of Eve's story interesting is the sort th
the sort th-- The sort that what?? :o
Edge of my seat.
I'm on it.
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TL;DR, she doesn't really like anybody but Ishukone and Hyasyoda. Anyone not of those two megacorps is someone she will always view with a measure of suspicion and caution. I'm going to start writing in some light dashes of ethnocentric bias and make it more difficult for her to get along with non Caldari.
Question: what exactly is her issue with a Heth-led Caldari government? Is it more that he is opposed to Ishukone or are there other reasons? It's a fascinating contradiction you have built in there.
Katrina is a bit old school in how she thinks the State should be. the concept of a single man leading the State is abhorrant to her. It should be the CEOs of the Big Eight who run the scene. It should be the CEP who directs the Caldari Navy.
The CPD and the blueshirt provists who impose their will on the other seven megacorps strikes Kat as something ridiculously insulting. It doesn't help that Kat percieves Heth as a fool and a bigot, two things she hates more than anything.
While she respects some things Heth has accomplished during his hopefully short tenure as State Executor, she does not respect the man. Oh, and, Heth doesn't like the Liberals. He's also partly responsible for the thriving existance of people like Diana Kim, who Kat hates.
(I on the other hand find Diana Kim a remarkably interesting character, though not quite as likable as Rodj.)
Khanid Kingdom... beneath her notice.
I'm glad to hear things are looking up. I find it adds to my RP immensely when I have a strong, well-defined vision for a character.
Makkal and her haven’t yet managed to have an actual conversation, but she’s a pleasure to watch whenever she comes out of the shadows to public venues.
Kat doesn't really pay attention to the Khanid Kingdom, it's true. But my list was more indicative of the four m ajor powers, rather then including all nuanced smaller powers like Syndicate, Khanid, Ammatar, pirates, etc. She does have strong opinions on some others, but you'll have to poke her IC to learn more. Just don't do it in public. The PR Director is unlikely to rant in public about an entire empire.
I like this new, harder Kat. Almost sounds like a proper Patriot (in Liberal clothing).
I'll just let you wonder about the fact that this is intended.
When do you intend to hire Charlize Theron for the related movie ?
Well now that she's done filming Prometheus... I've got her on speed dial for just such an occasion.
[spoiler](http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8168/7487855370_7100f2b607_b.jpg)[/spoiler]
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High five!
(http://i.imgur.com/bj9Jh.gif)
Have been following this thread, is looking great
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TL;DR, she doesn't really like anybody but Ishukone and Hyasyoda. Anyone not of those two megacorps is someone she will always view with a measure of suspicion and caution. I'm going to start writing in some light dashes of ethnocentric bias and make it more difficult for her to get along with non Caldari.
It's also worth noting that she never says "Saisieni, Summit" anymore. She no longer considers outsiders her kin worthy of her native tongue. Unless the person is Caldari, she will not consider them kin without the person first demonstrating they deserve that respect by both supporting and -fighting for- the State and Ishukone.
:eek:
I look forward to our new Katrina overlords.
Been watching this thread, lots of good suggestions in here.
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It's also worth noting that she never says "Saisieni, Summit" anymore. She no longer considers outsiders her kin worthy of her native tongue. Unless the person is Caldari, she will not consider them kin without the person first demonstrating they deserve that respect by both supporting and -fighting for- the State and Ishukone.
This was my work.
I am glad to see this. While it's a different topic entirely (likely fit it's own tread if I care enough to make one) I find the constant use of native tongue's on the IGS nearly intolerable and a strange IC and OOC issue.
For the ooc issue, while it's not the intent of the players doing so, every time a toon uses a non-translated (not English) word of phrase on the IGS I get the impression they are aiming for deliberate "my-faction-is-better-due-cool-sayings-and-language" grade elitism. Obviously incorrect bullshit, but I'm in no control over my impressions and feelings.'
The IC issue is mostly due the fact two of my toons believe that deliberately TURNING OFF THE TRANSLATOR so that words, phrases and/or sayings get through without translation is basically a form of cultural imperialism in it's own right and effectively an insult to everyone that observes. It's like saying "I can't be bothered to translate this so that you understand, it's your job to know my language by default and understand me, if you can't, you don't deserve to know what I'm even saying or what these words mean. Translate by hand if you want to know." In short, insisting that everyone else caters to your own language in a highly public location with billions of viewers is essentially promoting an attitude that they simply don't respect nor enjoy seeing.
As for the changes in Kat, I'm glad to see these. If I get back into RP'ing (and gaming more often than 2-3 hours every other day or so :lol:) I suspect I might have quite some fun sharpening my verbal poking-sticks with Kat.
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I don't understand the language thing from the opposite direction ("how are you bypassing my translation software?"), but I won't go further off-topic here. Suffice to say "thanks, Kat!"
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I'd say that Mitara Newelle is a small inspiration for how I'm going to begin separating and compartmentalizing my need for happy RP and the strength to thrive in EVE's dystopian RP scene. As someone put it, Mitty is a kitten with Aldrith only but a lioness everywhere else. I hope to emulate that with Katrina by shutting off most of the public examples of Kat's soft side, reserving it for private RP as suggested.
/me tears up with pride.
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As for the changes in Kat, I'm glad to see these. If I get back into RP'ing (and gaming more often than 2-3 hours every other day or so :lol:) I suspect I might have quite some fun sharpening my verbal poking-sticks with Kat.
Just be aware I've never taken a debate class, and part of Kat's new character is that she doesn't see the need to indulge random Mr. Joe Egger with a full fledged debate complete with carefully crafted opinions. She's more likely to smirk at you, say something snotty, then just block you IC.
I feel it's something odd that people will have these big drawn out debates with folks they just met five minutes ago for the first time. I find it odd that someone who's ~seen some shit~ has the patience to lose hair over a debate with a ten day old newbie. I don't mean this to exclude new players in the RP scene... but more this:
Why would I take an hour to argue for/against [political controversy] with some guy I just passed by on the street? Why would I bother if I was Donald Trump or George Patton? I wouldn't. I wouldn't be arguing with anybody not explicitly worth my time... and time is worth a lot to the Caldari.
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I wouldn't be arguing with anybody not explicitly worth my time...
I believe we've found the next Sani Sabik recruit. This one sounds quite promising. :P
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I wouldn't be arguing with anybody not explicitly worth my time...
I believe we've found the next Sani Sabik recruit. This one sounds quite promising. :P
She already meets the space-lesbian half of the entry requirements, too! *flees*
Yes, I'm kidding.
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Why would I take an hour to argue for/against [political controversy] with some guy I just passed by on the street? Why would I bother if I was Donald Trump or George Patton? I wouldn't. I wouldn't be arguing with anybody not explicitly worth my time... and time is worth a lot to the Caldari.
:cube:
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I wouldn't be arguing with anybody not explicitly worth my time...
I believe we've found the next Sani Sabik recruit. This one sounds quite promising. :P
NUUUUUUU!
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Love the direction you've taken Kat-C and glad that I get to see her softer side from time to time.
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Meh, I get the impression that I'm playing Malcolm all wrong apparently.
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Meh, I get the impression that I'm playing Malcolm all wrong apparently.
I'm not sure you could play a character that refused to engage in philosophical/political debate. At a minimum, I'm not sure you'd enjoy it.
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Meh, I get the impression that I'm playing Malcolm all wrong apparently.
This isn't about anyone else's character. This is more about the fact that I personally don't like pointless debate that always gets heated about the same controversial topics. they were fun the first couple times, but when every new bob and sally comes onto the summit with another version of the same argument... it gets tiring. I needed a reason why Kat would just block rather than indulge.
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Meh, I get the impression that I'm playing Malcolm all wrong apparently.
This isn't about anyone else's character. This is more about the fact that I personally don't like pointless debate that always gets heated about the same controversial topics. they were fun the first couple times, but when every new bob and sally comes onto the summit with another version of the same argument... it gets tiring. I needed a reason why Kat would just block rather than indulge.
This makes perfect sense and I apologize of interjecting my own issues into your thread. Forgive me? :ugh:
Regardless, I like the way you play Kat and her newer, more aggressive side, is actually something Malcolm's been paying attention to. I won't express here what his thoughts are, since that's something to bring up IC. :)
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+1 Like!!!
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*peeks in to make sure Katrina isn't seekrit True Amarr*
Have certainly noticed the change in personality, good luck sharpening those verbal spears.
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*peeks in to make sure Katrina isn't seekrit True Amarr*
Have certainly noticed the change in personality, good luck sharpening those verbal spears.
Haha, thanks. I could say part of it is because of Silas' urges for Kat to make a name for herself and such. Kat secretly respects Silas for her experience and merit, of course, even though she won't ever admit it. So it makes sense that Kat's change in personality is partly spurred by Silas.
When she wrote the sharp reply to Silas, I was hoping Silas would like the way Kat was standing up to her instead of get offended. But it's cool how it ended up anyways. :D
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*peeks in to make sure Katrina isn't seekrit True Amarr*
Have certainly noticed the change in personality, good luck sharpening those verbal spears.
Haha, thanks. I could say part of it is because of Silas' urges for Kat to make a name for herself and such. Kat secretly respects Silas for her experience and merit, of course, even though she won't ever admit it. So it makes sense that Kat's change in personality is partly spurred by Silas.
When she wrote the sharp reply to Silas, I was hoping Silas would like the way Kat was standing up to her instead of get offended. But it's cool how it ended up anyways. :D
Interesting, and thank you.
I think we don't see nearly enough ruthless corporate "bulldog" types, so I'm all for this. We need way more "Weyland Corp" alpha-females in Caldari RP. More ruthless executives getting it done for THE COMPANY.
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(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UPL1rouE2G8/UBxHtXRd0zI/AAAAAAAADSE/DCj2DYSXBho/s1600/sad-cat.jpg)
Necro Update
It seems Simca is quitting EVE. You all will see an IGS post detailing what happens to Simca Develon sometime soon-ish. I'm not sure myself what will be in it, but it will either be MIA or KIA. Probably some accident or something. Anyways, what happens to her isn't the point of this post. The point is... what will happen to who's left behind?
Fully half of my RP has been built around Simca and Katrina. Hell, they're a household term among the OOC as "SimKat". Simca and Katrina are so tied into each other that without one, the other falls apart. I'm at a crossroads as to where to go next. I can see four major options: Depression, Rage, Apathy, and Acceptance.
Depression is listed first because, thanks to the way Katrina's character is written - it's the most likely and fitting reaction for her. She lives in a house that was custom built specifically for the both of them, most of her strongest flaws and insecurities were comforted or eliminated by her relationship, and almost everything in her life would remind her of it.
Rage is the next most probable, for many of the same reasons. This probably means she'll just go pirate and say "Fuck I-RED, fuck the State, and fuck everyone else but me. Nothing lasts forever."
Apathy is the least likely, really... because it's just odd.
Acceptance is something I'm considering, but I'm not sure how. This is where you come in. I'd like advice on how Katrina could accept the loss of the single most important aspect of her life, ever, and literally the only person she's ever loved. (Explicitly written that way, for :reasons:, not just OMG MARY SUE.)
Some ideas I have are that maybe she accepts this situation as proof that wanting for herself is pointless, and that living for the State would be a greater and much less painful path. A reminder to the collective mentality, and that while you might lose your loved ones, you'll never lose the State.
Or maybe she just figures "shit happens", and gets over it with some minor problems. But I've never suddenly lost a fiance in RL before, and only know one person who has... and this person has SERIOUS emotional issues. He's a fucking train wreck. So I don't see this sort of 'suck it up' mentality as very.... believable.
So I need help. I need a way to continue my enjoyment of Katrina without Simca in the picture. Keep in mind again, that as in the first post I made.... Kat is still a sort of escape for me, and I just lost a pretty alluring aspect of that escape (a romance novel). What else can I enjoy by Kat?
HALP!
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For the majority of EVE RP......
...dont mention it.
Seriously, why would Kat? Shes goes on IGS to talk to her peers, her enemies, and her rivals. Why would she give them a handle to hurt her? To use against her?
For the most part, she will go on being the ice cold Caldari we all know and love. That she might be suffering privately is her own business.
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I would second the stoic public face idea. Not that it can't have cracks. Privately, any of those might work - though as an alternate 'rage' avenue I might suggest throwing herself into the work of the corporation even more - perhaps unhealthily so.
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I'd imagine, that like Gottii and Silver said, Kat will keep a stoic public face while leaning heavily on those close to her. There will be good opportunity for private RP, and occasional hints of the turmoil within in public forums.
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Well, with a very high percentage of mobilised citizenry deployed on a number of fronts I'm sure that the Caldari people are no strangers to loss, sacrifice, grief and mourning.
If you want to mitigate the effects that this event will have on Katrina then you need to find a path to work through this grief in such a way that she doesn't wind up isolated from her support structure.
Unfortunately I don't know Kat as well as I'd like. I know she and her boss are close colleagues, but that's about it. I'm not aware of any other close relationships she could use, but there should really be a wake. Kresh spirit. Green branches as decorations that indicate that life goes on. A chance for all of her acquaintainces and colleagues to show solidarity - in that quiet way that Heiian advocates.
It won't be enough on its own, but it is catharsis, it's a public acknowledgement of the loss and a public display of grieving. It would help.
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:cry:
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Depression and Rage mix well in dire situations. Also, rage for the State is a suitable outlet as well. :bear:
All in all, however, don't do something in game you won't have fun doing. In the end you can put the spin on Katrina through this event as you want. While I do agree that change must happen I don't necessarily think that it must be radical by default.
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It seems Simca is quitting EVE. You all will see an IGS post detailing what happens to Simca Develon sometime soon-ish. I'm not sure myself what will be in it, but it will either be MIA or KIA. Probably some accident or something.
Revenge upon those who killed or took her can also be an outlet. Suitable, unsuitable, eh, who cares as long as it's fun?
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:cry:
^this
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Or she can look for another to fill the sudden void because she can't accept it.
Like, I hear that JFR is a very comforting man.
:P
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Silver Knight has the best suggestion.
Alternatively, is there a reason she needs to biomass? Couldn't she just happily retire and be more of an NPC sort that you reference when you'd like to? IE the relationship continues but she's no longer in active service?
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Silver Knight has the best suggestion.
Alternatively, is there a reason she needs to biomass? Couldn't she just happily retire and be more of an NPC sort that you reference when you'd like to? IE the relationship continues but she's no longer in active service?
thats what I tend to do when I want to retire a character. After 5 years I understand that this game is possibly a more difficult habit to kick then most hard drugs.
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Or make it MIA.
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Since is not just quitting EVE, but also rarely logs in. So the next time he actually is around to ask - we'll be working out the details of what happens to his character. So, for right now, we don't know. It may not be KIA, as MIA is a very distinct possibility.
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/me hugs Kat
Im sorry hun... its hard when your best RP buddy leaves, and hard IC for the character to figure out what to do. Kat is tough, I think, but is also wonderfully "real". I think a tough, real person would react much like people have said... stoic surface, but definately with cracks.
Hugs again
If you wanna talk, Ava (Or Amanda) is always happy to.
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I believe stecker did more of the depression with occasional flashes of rage under similar but less dire circumstances.
for kicks and giggles this could motivate a drastic change in Kat's behavior which might then lead to hilarious catastrophes, thus leading her back to normal. At chance to enjoy RP that is currently out of character for her, while still having a reason to get back to the normal that you enjoy.
So, for example, she could go pirate, or start sleeping around, become a hisec ganker/griefer, just about anything that you'd like to try in game but couldn't explain Kat doing IC.
From what little I know of Kat, I'd agree with most here - outside, the usual stoic. Possibly with a drastically reduced public presence to minimize the need for keeping up the stony facade. Occasionally a breakdown or milder evidence of cracks when forced to keep the facade up for too long.
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Isn't Simca just retiring an option? I quit EVE a while and my IC reason was that Aldy just didn't want to capsuleer anymore. I kept in touch with Mitty OOC and we talked about what could be expected from the situation and all was peachy. Is that an option?
That combined with a break-up might be a plausible scenario that can avoid the drama of death/disappearence, plus leave things open for a return if the player ever decides to come back.
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Personally I like "Kat", and think the occasional variance in a characters personality builds depth, if not taken to extremes. As to what James thinks :eek: When you put so much real time and real effort into something real grief is natural. Its fun to get to know individuals both in and out of character and we miss them when they are gone. I hope you find a way to make it work. Feel free to come scream at James any time you like ;)
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Citizen Oniseki gogogogogo
Citizen Ahvar is happy for you!
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Katrina's Themesong: KATGROOVE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv4P2kbGqM4)
Katrina already knows about whatever is going to happen to Simca, so significant changes in her personality should start creeping through the cracks anytime now. Some of you have already seen it.
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Dont toy with me, Onizeki! :cube:
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Is excited!
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Sorry to hear about this, but I know you'll figure it out and pull through.
Kat will still be awesome!
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All good things must end. It's the rule of life, unfortunately, my best to Simca. :(
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"And so we move on to new horizons, and wonder what wondrous and terrible sights our eyes will feast tomorrow..."
So, the news has hit the media outlets. With the posting of the "Misjump" fiction, by Simca, it is now safe for everyone who happens to watch the normal person's news to find out about what happened. Stargate failures of that magnitude are rare enough that I think it would be reasonable for The Scope to want to dedicate a ten minute slot to it at least once.
As for Kat's personality change? Well I've decided on a path to take. You'll have to RP with me to find out. :)
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I see what tonight's outburst was about. :)
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~~~~
NECRO
~~~~
Alright, so... I've decided to step back from the Space Lesbians thread, because I was having trouble understanding when people are subtly pointing at my character, or pointing at the hypersexual 'Space Lesbians' trope, or pointing at the entire lesbian RP community. My OP in that thread has been clearly stated and answered to my satisfaction. What concerns me now is my personal character, Katrina Oniseki. So I'll post these questions in my character specific thread, instead of the broader scope thread mentioned.
As many are aware, she is married to a female. She was previously dating another female. She is interested in males too, but for OOC reasons both times (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4263.msg67482#msg67482), I've not yet gotten the chance to explore that side of her sexuality. It should be stated that I place great effort into trying to roleplay Katrina's fight to keep her relationships separate from work, and the conflict of interests between being State loyal and love loyal. Some of the issues she battles with directly related to this are/were:
- The conflict of interests between dating Simca, who was often her superior professionally, and not letting it interfere with work.
- The fact that the State does not recognize homosexuals as liberally as she'd like.
- That she is State loyal, yet found a marriage license in the Federation (subtle hint there that she has attained Federal citizenship in secret)
- That she could be called out at any time as disloyal to the State for marrying a Federation citizen (who is also a woman)
So, with that in mind... I want to ask this community what you think of my portrayal of it. Does it offend you? Do you think it's inappropriate? Is it realistic? Does it need work? Do you feel you're more likely to avoid interaction with my character because of her sexuality? Do you feel I should simply 'stick to guys'?
Note: I realize some of you are going to simply say "Do what you enjoy", and believe me... I've no intention to suddenly change her sexuality if some are offended. But I want to know if and why people are offended, specifically by and/or about Katrina. I want to know how I could improve if necessary. I want to know how to avoid appearing as a one dimensional character.
I want to be recognized as a legitimate roleplayer, whose character has depth and geniunely interesting dynamics, without having to shoehorn heterosexuality into her story.
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Having RPed with Katrina several times, though only once on a personal level in her home, I find the character to possess a lot of depth and nuance. Malcolm placed very little judgment on her choice of relationship because he didn't see it as any of his concern. Primarily it was the concern of her CEO (John) to treat it as he chooses, and Mal left it at that.
I've always enjoyed Katrina as a character and I've never found her to be offensive at all.
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Kat is great. She's a better portrayal of a woman attracted to other women than many I've seen or read.
...shoehorn heterosexuality into her story.
This would be sad.
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Two words: Hell. No.
As in, it does not offend me one bit. Kat is practically a walking inversion of the negative aspects of that trope.
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Biggest RP issue with Katrina: Not on. Cannot get RPs.
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^^^
I don't think anyone in the Space Lesbians thread was talking about you. In fact, what I kept reading was that Kat was the example of a NotSpaceLesbian Lesbian, making your character the textbook example of What To Do.
Just reading this thread (...oh god procrastination...) makes it very clear that you take your personal roleplay extremely seriously, and are way more concerned with your portrayal of Katrina than most people are with their own characters. I'm pretty sure you're quite safe from the 1-dimensional characterizations that some RPers end up with.
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You have nothing to worry about, Katrina.
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"You're a fuckin' roleplayer Kat - I ever tell you any different you punch me in the face."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=m95qHOmoUXs&list=LLa0S_B7fjMHT2bAy_KN2riA#t=354s
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I still fail to see where that (space) lesbianism stuff comes into play when discussing your character.
Subtle hint here: You seem like you're making this 'an issue' all by yourself, because whenever I witnessed or had interactions with your character it never was remotely connected to her sexuality, at least in a way that puts it prominently into the foreground. And even with sexuality being a valid aspect of a character it is by no means a defining characteristic unless you decide to make it one, for example by constantly pushing the issue OOCly or - what at least I don't see you doing - playing out the trope to its fullest in every IC channel/situation. ;)
So, maybe just chill out, you're doing fine.
We've already told you that, I think.
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My only complaint about Katrina is that none of my characters have gotten to RP with her.
She's on my list of "Characters Whom I Would Someday Like To Stalk With A Sekrit Alt".
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I still fail to see where that (space) lesbianism stuff comes into play when discussing your character.
Subtle hint here: You seem like you're making this 'an issue' all by yourself, because whenever I witnessed or had interactions with your character it never was remotely connected to her sexuality, at least in a way that puts it prominently into the foreground. And even with sexuality being a valid aspect of a character it is by no means a defining characteristic unless you decide to make it one, for example by constantly pushing the issue OOCly or - what at least I don't see you doing - playing out the trope to its fullest in every IC channel/situation. ;)
So, maybe just chill out, you're doing fine.
We've already told you that, I think.
I appreciate your response. I suppose what makes me keep thinking I'm doing something wrong is that when reading some of the opinions expressed, I keep thinking they could be applied to my character. I've been told that my character is fine, yes, but I've also been told my haircut looks just fine when it doesn't. People are not always entirely honest about what they really think, and I tend to try and read between the lines sometimes.
I think you make a good point, and I'm glad you've made it. I can be quite insecure about my character building.
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I appreciate your response. I suppose what makes me keep thinking I'm doing something wrong is that when reading some of the opinions expressed, I keep thinking they could be applied to my character. I've been told that my character is fine, yes, but I've also been told my haircut looks just fine when it doesn't. People are not always entirely honest about what they really think, and I tend to try and read between the lines sometimes.
I think you make a good point, and I'm glad you've made it. I can be quite insecure about my character building.
Having had similar issues myself, let me offer you a word of counsel:
A lot of what people say about things can be applied to our characters. It is not the application of these singular items that make them bad, it is these items either in conjunction with one another or in solitude without any other qualifying factors that make them bad.
In other words, that a few "negative" things can be applied to Katrina doesn't make Katrina a bad character or make her fit into a negative stereotype because those "negative" things are in the middle of a variety of other factors that make her complete character. This means they're not negative any longer, they're simply part of who the character is, it gives them scope and depth.
Consider it like this: Chlorine is a toxic gas in its natural state, poisonous to humans and highly combustible. Sodium in its natural state is a very soft metal that conducts electricity and explodes when exposed to water. Alone, either one of these elements could potentially kill a human being upon consumption. Put them together and you have table salt, which contains sodium and the isotope chloride which together help regulate blood flow and metabolism.
Katrina is the table salt, not just chlorine or sodium.
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I have not have the occasion to RP with her, or very briefly on the Summit, which is unfortunate.
- The conflict of interests between dating Simca, who was often her superior professionally, and not letting it interfere with work.
- The fact that the State does not recognize homosexuals as liberally as she'd like.
- That she is State loyal, yet found a marriage license in the Federation (subtle hint there that she has attained Federal citizenship in secret)
- That she could be called out at any time as disloyal to the State for marrying a Federation citizen (who is also a woman)
That is what works really well and is really well thought in the character.
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What originally began as an OOC happenstance to start dating a female ended up turning into one of the most nuanced and interesting roleplays I've ever had. Exploring the biases and entrenched cultural limitations of a wholly fictional culture like this, while playing to my RL strengths of emotional introspection... has really turned out to be rewarding for me.
This is why I love roleplaying Kat as dating women, despite not intending her to. It's become far more interesting than heterosexual relationships to me. I realize that might appear as offensive, perhaps even trivializing the real struggles of real lesbians in real life... but I experience those issues too IRL. Not as a lesbian, mind you, but as someone who often must hide my attraction to other males.
Reflecting those struggles into EV and exploring what those same struggles might mean for somebody so wildly different from me, a Caldari executive and military commander, is both helpful for me to come to terms with my own insecurities and incredibly engaging because it's a touchstone for things that mean something to me IRL. It's creating a movie that reflects my own struggles, without it being a self absorbent autobiography in space.
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Don't sweat the Space Lesbian thing. All Space Lesbians are lesbians in space. Not all lesbians in space are Space Lesbians...
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I am a proud space lesbian.
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Cute, too!
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I like Katrina :)
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♥ ♥ ♥
Dont you change a thing about your toon unless YOU want. I will echo what has been said here; the eyerolling "space lesbians" tend to be the master/slave/talk about nothin else sorts.
These people are nothing BUT kinky, shove it in your face "lesbians".
Katrina is a woman who is a politically and socially aware, a pilot, a corpmate, a friend, a soldier, and oh yeah, also a lesbian.
Small difference.
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Half of my characters could, and would use sexual orientation against Kat if they had a chance. But, luckily, they are not aware of it :lol:
My characters don't usually dig into others private lives, so it is very low possibility that they find it out, unless you shovel it into their faces :D Quite possible situation, if you would want to provoke some drama-lama :roll:
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I like Katrina as she is, never actually thought much of her sexual orientation, didn't matter to me. But, in any case, Kat should be what you want her to be, not based on what others say or wish of her... otherwise, you end up RPing someone you don't like, and that leads to nothing good.
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I like Katrina as she is, never actually thought much of her sexual orientation, didn't matter to me. But, in any case, Kat should be what you want her to be, not based on what others say or wish of her... otherwise, you end up RPing someone you don't like, and that leads to nothing good.
You know you're roleplaying a LGBT character well when people you interact with don't even think about it.
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I like Katrina as she is, never actually thought much of her sexual orientation, didn't matter to me. But, in any case, Kat should be what you want her to be, not based on what others say or wish of her... otherwise, you end up RPing someone you don't like, and that leads to nothing good.
You know you're roleplaying a LGBT character well when people you interact with don't even think about it.
Definitely inclined to agree with Creep, here.
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Me too. :)
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Well this is all confirmation that I am entirely oversensitive.
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Well this is all confirmation that I am entirely oversensitive.
Katrina, almost all objections to any roleplay style you care to name (at so long as we're talking personality and characterization rather than canon) are contingent on the player not quite playing a person. The entity being played might be an archetype, or might be a stereotype, but at any rate is something simple: a high (or low) concept brought to some superficial semblance of life.
For some, this is just a matter of inexperience: they don't have enough experience stepping into other people's shoes to create someone three-dimensional.
For some, it's thoughtlessness: there's only one thing they want or expect out of the character, and that is what the character becomes.
For some (hopefully) rare few, it's maybe a matter of judgment: an opinion that people are ultimately simple, and that THIS sort of person acts like THIS.
From what we've been hearing, however, you don't match any of these patterns. Katrina's not a stereotype or an archetype or a wish; she's a person, a believable person. I think that's more important to pretty much all of us than any single trait that goes into making that person up-- and, what's more, serves to justify any that does.
That is my view, at any rate.
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Katrina, almost all objections to any roleplay style you care to name (at so long as we're talking personality and characterization rather than canon) are contingent on the player not quite playing a person. The entity being played might be an archetype, or might be a stereotype, but at any rate is something simple: a high (or low) concept brought to some superficial semblance of life.
For some, this is just a matter of inexperience: they don't have enough experience stepping into other people's shoes to create someone three-dimensional.
For some, it's thoughtlessness: there's only one thing they want or expect out of the character, and that is what the character becomes.
For some (hopefully) rare few, it's maybe a matter of judgment: an opinion that people are ultimately simple, and that THIS sort of person acts like THIS.
From what we've been hearing, however, you don't match any of these patterns. Katrina's not a stereotype or an archetype or a wish; she's a person, a believable person. I think that's more important to pretty much all of us than any single trait that goes into making that person up-- and, what's more, serves to justify any that does.
That is my view, at any rate.
This. A thousand times, this.
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LGBT was short-hand for what, again?
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LGBT was short-hand for what, again?
Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transsexual.
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/me still says katrina should just remember one thing; She is
(http://i.imgur.com/ecn46Er.gif)
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Kat sucks and so does her player. ;)
But for srs, I love Kat and one day Val will turn her to the dark side of manly manly love.
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Kat sucks and so does her player. ;)
But for srs, I love Kat and one day Val will turn her to the dark side of manly manly love.
Tch. Kat already has the hugest and most obvious crush on Val. You should hear how she talks about him to the other girls.
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I can vouch for Kat's endless ramblings regarding Val.
All she can talk about is him, a bottle of warming lubricant, and water balloons full of jello.
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"You should definitely date him, Silas."
"No."
"Look at those strong broad shoulders... and that tight rear end... and the flowing locks of hair..."
"Who are you fantasizing for exactly?"
"Mmnh... I bet he has lots of chest hair..."
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I'm blushing! :oops:
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:eek:
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Clearly, Katrina should devote her life to rewriting bad slashfics. Whether this would be better or worse is yet to be determined, but I nominate the 50 Glazes of Jialei for her first attempt. :lol:
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Contact me about that, hun. I have some ideas for a Shin/Graelyn slashfic...
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I feel there should be a graelyn slashfic section on backstage
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[spoiler](http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/37694317.jpg)[/spoiler]
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UPDATE
So, I find myself at an impasse. I'm not sure what to think of my character, or how she has evolved. In a discussion with a friend, they pretty openly pointed out that Katrina is not the Caldari exemplar. She married a Gallentean female. This is, of course, to be expected - but how bad does it go? How far from the Caldari example is she?
Living in a luxurious house on her own career profits, married to a female Gallentean, and generally abhors the militia wars.
On the other hand, she is portrayed as constantly working in her office for I-RED/Ishukone, speaks often and loudly in defense of the State (or against Heth), has a combat record for I-RED and campaign experience there, and has generally tried to keep a public face worth being proud of... with a few exceptions.
So, while her private life is certainly quite comfortable and luxurious, she tries to balance it by being the best worker she can be and tries to remain humble. She rarely ventures outside her office, and tends to remain focused on her work if she isn't at home. She doesn't like flaunting her wealth or accomplishments (mostly because I don't like trying to convince others to acknowledge them).
In your opinion, on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being Outcast Scum and 10 being a Paragon of the Caldari People... how would you rate Katrina?
Do you think her portrayal is an effective and engaging one?
Do you think it spits in the face of PF or is otherwise unfitting for how she is portrayed?
Do you think I should abandon the concept of 'trying to be Caldari' and just focus wholly on making her an independent freed from nationalist bonds or influences?
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I may be new here, but I'm not new to Caldari or the ideas they hold and value.
To answer each question.
- 7 - I think that Caldari who work hard and are successful executives and due to that live a life of reasonable luxury are not going to be looked upon negatively, in fact you probably live very reasonably compared to a Gallentean or Amarrian counterpart. However you married a Gallentean, and that's bad (and the female bit doens't really matter, you married one of 'them'). And abhoring the militia wars isn't bad unless you do it for moral reasons rather than pragmatic business ones, if so then other Caldari will find you different but won't look down on you too much for it. Your work life makes up for everything, hard working, humble and devoted to her corporation, nothing more could be asked of you in those cases and Caldari value work above many other things. In short, professionally you are a perfect Caldari, personally you're a wierd one but not so weird that it overshadows your professional excellence.
- I will have to research this more but from what I've seen Kat has never seemed boring and most certainly I recognise you on the forums (both IGS and here) as a character of interest
- No, not to my knowledge
- Yes and no, you shouldn't 'try to be Caldari' your character should have some caldari aspects though (which they do, work ethic and stuff). Concerning nationalism if you want to not be a big pro state Caldari then maybe you should tone your character down to being a person who is pro-collectivist corporate model rather than simply Pro-state. However you shouldn't sever ties to it, at least that's my opinion.
I hope this is helpful and I'm not wildly ill-informed about what kind of answers you want.
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6-7. The portrayal is good. It doesnt spit on PF or else we would play clones of each other, pure achetypes and products of their faction. That would be rather dull. I doubt that even the Caldari are all uptights and brain formated clones. It's true for every faction, not just the gallente.
The fact that she married an outsider, and add to that a female, is probably a source of shame and finger pointing in the State, but heh, capsuleers... vOv
And not every average caldari think as a pure conservative on that either.
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Caldari wise, 6-7.
Overall, 9.
Kat's hilarious and you never know what'll happen next with her. She may be educating some ignorant fools on why bitches be preferring a meritocracy for their lives by using academic references and such all up innit. But the next thing you know, she be crackin' puns and making Sansha's deadpan so hard they can't UNdeadpan.
I <3 Kat.
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UPDATE
So, I find myself at an impasse. I'm not sure what to think of my character, or how she has evolved. In a discussion with a friend, they pretty openly pointed out that Katrina is not the Caldari exemplar. She married a Gallentean female. This is, of course, to be expected - but how bad does it go? How far from the Caldari example is she?
Living in a luxurious house on her own career profits, married to a female Gallentean, and generally abhors the militia wars.
On the other hand, she is portrayed as constantly working in her office for I-RED/Ishukone, speaks often and loudly in defense of the State (or against Heth), has a combat record for I-RED and campaign experience there, and has generally tried to keep a public face worth being proud of... with a few exceptions.
So, while her private life is certainly quite comfortable and luxurious, she tries to balance it by being the best worker she can be and tries to remain humble. She rarely ventures outside her office, and tends to remain focused on her work if she isn't at home. She doesn't like flaunting her wealth or accomplishments (mostly because I don't like trying to convince others to acknowledge them).
In your opinion, on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being Outcast Scum and 10 being a Paragon of the Caldari People... how would you rate Katrina?
Do you think her portrayal is an effective and engaging one?
Do you think it spits in the face of PF or is otherwise unfitting for how she is portrayed?
Do you think I should abandon the concept of 'trying to be Caldari' and just focus wholly on making her an independent freed from nationalist bonds or influences?
From what I've interracted with her, she'd make a far better Gallente than caldari so I am gonna say 2 on your scale of caldari. I find the character interesting, and often fun to follow and read. Go independent, it'd make more sense and would open multiple different paths you'd other might not explore with her.
PS. Join Stormcrows. Like a Boss.
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I'd say 6-8, depending on how heavily you weigh the marriage issue. From my little knowledge of Caldari PF, it isn't enjoying the benefits of success itself that is frowned upon - frankly, discouraging enjoying your success in a hypercapitalist society is a idiotic idea - but preservation of those benefits superseding all other efforts. The Caldari don't mind if you spend your hard-earned coin; they do mind if you game the system to keep that coin flowing into your pocket rather than working to benefit the greater State.
And there, I think, is where Katrina succeeds: She is a shockingly good businessperson. As you pointed out, she is often on the front lines of the debates and in space combat. I would also add that as one of the most recognizable people in I-RED, she has also done a terrific job of outreach and diplomacy, managing to undo the heaviest stereotypes about Caldari and become an easy, friendly point of access for those wishing to speak or work with a Caldari-associated operation.
So, yeah. I like the Kat. Even if I don't get to talk IC nearly as much as I should.
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This is one of those issues I've got with the EVE RP community. Katrina is fine, and the problem with her might not be you.
I've bandied the term around and been asked to explain it, so I will. U.A.D. It means Use As Directed, and comes from the idea that any substance that can be remotely dangerous carries a warning that you should never use it in any way other than you have been directed to use it. It's a very, very common theme in OOC relations with IC characters, and it's essentially the death knell of substantial RP.
The concept was explained to me as a forum roleplayer as playing an over-limited role as a character due to taking every bit of lore about a people at face value. The problem with the "every orc is a violent sociopath" problem is that when you play an orc that way, and every orc is a violent sociopath, you aren't playing a character anymore. You're playing an "orc." The problem is that this in no way relates to any realistic version of culture. The social bell curve absolutely proves that there is more variation within any given culture than there can ever be differences between them. It's really the separation that makes a character into a character rather than a caricature. They have to stand on their own, or they're no longer a character in the play. They're part of the scenery.
The idea that the Amarr, Caldari, or anyone else will not have the upper crust of their society with any variation from the norm doesn't make any sense. What Caldari example is she trying to meet? There are probably a nigh-infinite "Caldari examples" out there, or at least as many examples as there are players. We've also seen that might makes right, so if she's extremely successful and popular she could probably be living and voting in Gallente space and still be looked up to by the other Caldari. Even if she stuck completely to the Caldari script, you could bet there would be Caldari who would find her abhorrent. That's just the way life is.
The U.A.D. concept essentially bandies cultural tendencies into gospels and orders its people to be a certain way all of the time. In essence, it tells you precisely who and what you are supposed to be. I would absolutely, if I were you, be very suspicious of adhering too closely to that frame of mind. Essentially, everything that makes Kat entertaining and notable as a character isn't how well you can follow directions. The idea that every Caldari is going to, say, agree with faction warfare and ostracize Kat if she is against it, would be an absolutely baffling display of a police state, since even the North Koreans can't completely stamp out personality (and they've been trying for over five decades). We've already established that the Caldari aren't anywhere near that effective or quite that authoritarian, and they've got a rather more massive population to handle.
I'd say that, if Kat is a successful story of Caldari business practices and she speaks out in support of the government, she's probably going to be liked just fine and held up as a model of Caldari superiority regardless of how well she fits a stereotype. She might have extreme traditionalist detractors, but the Caldari government isn't going to point to a person who succeeded in their system and now lives the high life and tell people how horrible it would be to be her. The Chinese government held Yao Ming up as a national hero regardless of how un-Communist his life was. Conservative Americans are still listening to Rush Limbaugh despite admitting to his drug problems. We've got plenty of examples of how this works.
I've always been extremely suspicious of the U.A.D. argument, having been warned of it a lot earlier, and I've seen what it does when it straps everyone to a wall. There has to be some kind of limitation, but what empire we come from is supposed to be a base for the character sauce we're making. Nobody wants to eat tomato paste alone simply because that's how it comes out of the can, definitely not if you want to make a good chili. A previously mentioned problem of yours was that too much of you ends up in the character. The way to correct that is definitely not to play the loreplay game. You have to understand Kat as a different individual, not you as you would adhere to Caldari rules. It helps reduce bleed when you have easy frames of reference to view situations from, and racial lore simply isn't a frame of reference, it's a list of suggestions.
I wouldn't say to go so far against the grain that you essentially make her un-Caldari, but you definitely don't want to go the other way and make her Caldari for Caldari's sake. In every empire, no matter how authoritarian, there has to be a wide spectrum of views and opinions. Even the Amarrian community, which is meant to be based heavily on a moralistic theocracy, has a fantastically wide range of characters on the IGS. I wouldn't say Rodj Blake, Constantin Baracca, Nicoletta Mithra, or any other is really un-Amarrian, they're all different characters with a similar background element (the past and religion). They're all extremely different characters, which is really what we're trying to do. Separate ourselves from the background noise.
I hope that stream-of-consciousness rant helped somewhat. You can always send me an EVEmail, since I don't have as much time here with my recurring responsibilities elsewhere and the EVEmail gets answered first and foremost. But I'd say, if you've got something that sets you apart from other people in your empire, you're actually doing it right. If your first resource for character behavior is cultural lore, you're only going to end up having the problem a lot of other people have. You say something, it's echoed from your side, decried from the other, and that's the end of the conversation. Play the character, not the faction, and don't be afraid to butt heads with your own side. Every single thing you say will probably earn you a U.A.D. cry of treason for every single thing you do, no matter how minor, but that's just background noise. Use your best judgment and, above all, have some fun with your character. If roleplaying isn't fun anymore, it's probably because it's turning into a research project rather than an artistic expression.
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In your opinion, on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being Outcast Scum and 10 being a Paragon of the Caldari People... how would you rate Katrina?
Strawberry/vanilla.
Being Caldari is not, in my opinion, about what percentage of bullet points you have in common with the Caldari stereotype. I find her filthy, unnatural fornications with jaiji are not so much strikes against Caldari-ness as interesting character flaws.
Do you think her portrayal is an effective and engaging one?
Yup.
Do you think it spits in the face of PF or is otherwise unfitting for how she is portrayed?
No. Worse, I have a general dislike for the idea that all characters should be flag-waving stereotypical exemplars of the values of their empire. She is a better character for not fitting in perfectly with the ideal. Her internal and external reactions to the discrepancy, to the extent that I've seen them, are done well and add depth.
Do you think I should abandon the concept of 'trying to be Caldari' and just focus wholly on making her an independent freed from nationalist bonds or influences?
While I guess she could easily go in that direction if you wanted to go there, I don't think it's in any way necessary.
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I think Shiori mostly nailed it for my own view.
The comments about Katrina possibly being a better Gallente than a Caldari are in some ways accurate but only if you're operating on a purely stereotypical and oversimplified spectrum.
Kat's hilarious and you never know what'll happen next with her. She may be educating some ignorant fools on why bitches be preferring a meritocracy for their lives by using academic references and such all up innit. But the next thing you know, she be crackin' puns and making Sansha's deadpan so hard they can't UNdeadpan.
This is probably one of the few things about Katrina as a character that results in a :twitch: reaction for me. It's great for a character to be able to do this when it's appropriate or the situation calls for it, but when she switches from super-srs-bsns to completely irreverent in a matter of seconds it is often very jarring and incongruous - especially if she's showing both 'modes' in the same place. (Like, it's one thing to be being a wiseass with people in person and super srs bsns on the Summit at the same time, but switching suddenly from super srs to OH LOL U on the Summit or vice versa feels really weird.)
Because you're often very irreverent yourself, this sometimes makes me wonder if perhaps the reason Katrina-c is making these seemingly random and sudden switches is simply because you have some random wiseass comment to make and just can't resist making it - and you just spit it out IC because it's usually related to the subject at hand. Alternatively, you are really, really bad at telling OOC and the Summit apart, and keep posting stuff in the latter that you mean to put in the former. :P
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BUT WHO WAS HEAD?
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Cultural stereotypes are useful in role-playing games... for newbies. They provide pre-defined templates they can slot themselves into, add a few quirks, and get started quickly without making too much of a fool for themselves.
But real humans are always defined partly in conflict with their culture. Culture in the real world isn't a set of rules, but a kind of... conversation about what the rules are even about. Having a particular type of honour isn't nearly as Caldari as worrying about whether you have that particular type of honour.
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Cultural stereotypes are useful in role-playing games... for newbies. They provide pre-defined templates they can slot themselves into, add a few quirks, and get started quickly without making too much of a fool for themselves.
Yes, no, kind of; I'm looking at Pieter and Diana Kim here, too, who as far as I can tell played a (nearly) stereotypical Caldari tube trooper or zealous Provist almost completely straight, and succeeded wonderfully well in showing the friction where those ideals and stereotypes meet a messy and chaotic reality.
But real humans are always defined partly in conflict with their culture. Culture in the real world isn't a set of rules, but a kind of... conversation about what the rules are even about. Having a particular type of honour isn't nearly as Caldari as worrying about whether you have that particular type of honour.
^This.
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I'd say 6 or 7.
The important thing to me is appearances and the maintenance of them. Sure, Kat married a Gallente woman (huhwha, goes the Hyasyoda exec? Definite demerit-and-no-more-promotions from the culturally conservative corp; oh wait, she's Ishu!); sure, she lives in luxurious accommodations. But she doesn't flaunt either, she doesn't try to fly it in the face of others as a challenge to them.
Further, remember that she's in the Liberal cast; being Gallente isn't a sin. Being a warmongering Gallente nationalist is. But then, warmongering generally gets the eye.
So. It'd be interesting for Kat-in-character to maybe have a crisis of belief (Makoto briefly flirted with that when it came to the concept of adversity, but it didn't blossom), but I wouldn't worry over much on your playing of her. She comes off as a sliiightly eccentric but essentially dedicated and admirable Caldari Liberal.
After a point, the character unfolds organically, so I say keep running with it. :)
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Before I continue, many thanks on the responses! All are very helpful. I had an inkling that I should be playing to realism in variation, but I wasn't sure about how well that works as Caldari.
Specific replies:
... And abhoring the militia wars isn't bad unless you do it for moral reasons rather than pragmatic business ones, if so then other Caldari will find you different but won't look down on you too much for it. ...
I hope this is helpful and I'm not wildly ill-informed about what kind of answers you want.
The reasons for abhoring the militia is mostly due to the fact that Ishukone loyalists have no need to contribute to the militia.
Ishukone owns nothing in Black Rise (note the lack of stations), and can conduct their business perfectly in Intaki under either occupation. There's no reason for an Ishukone loyalist to fight and die for other corporations. She answers the war cries of "Gallente are invading Caldari space!!!!" with "No, just your corporation's space. Not Ishukone's."
... so if she's extremely successful and popular she could probably be living and voting in Gallente space and still be looked up to by the other Caldari. ...
She does not vote in Gallente space.
Despite her automatic citizenship by marrying Erys, she has redirected all political stuff from the Fed right to the junk mail bin. She absolutely refuses to 'take part' in the Federation outside her marriage. She tends to justify this with alternating excuses of paranoia or disgust, depending on whether she's fought with another State or Federation loyalist most recently.
<Silliness and mischats>
Yes, that is definitely OOC bleedover, and eventual exhaustion with playing the super serious angle. Because I'm not sure I could break that habit even if I tried, and at least a significant portion of the community doesn't mind it, I'm inclined to just let it continue.
I am however attempting to provide a more natural shift into joking moods, so it's not so jarring. I tend to do this either by slowly building into it, or by waiting in silence for a while before speaking up again with the jokes.
... huhwha, goes the Hyasyoda exec? Definite demerit-and-no-more-promotions from the culturally conservative corp; oh wait, she's Ishu!...
She was born and raised Hyasyoda, not Ishukone. She only turned Ishukone when she joined I-RED. As explained below, this has had unforseen consequences in how she as developed as a person.
Now, replying to all the posts here at once. I think I just tend to slam on the brakes when I hear (or think I hear) that she isn't very Caldari. My goal isn't to play the ultimate Caldari, and it never was.
My goal is actually to play a believable Caldari, one who could fit in with the State while still not being a monochrome corporate drone. I wanted people to say, "Oh so that's what the Caldari are really like..." On the outside, she would appear to be Caldari exemplar, but on the inside she turns out to have layers upon layers of secrets both good and bad.
Part of the fun in playing Kat is that she has plenty of skeletons in her closet. If the closet door is wide open and everyone can see them, it ruins the effect. The intent isn't to show everyone what her skeletons are. The intent is to show everyone what a struggling Caldari woman with issues looks like on the outside. The intent is to play a troubled Caldari character who is trying to balance her traditionalist Hyasyoda expectations with her selfish and guilty desires in an environment where there is almost no oversight and boundless personal freedom.
Being a capsuleer is a HUGE difference in the amount of control. Suddenly Big Brother isn't there anymore. Nobody is watching you. Your phones aren't tapped, your bank accounts can't be siezed, you're immune to prosecution, you don't even need the State anymore. Suddenly you've got all this money and power and freedom, and you're talking with dirty jaijii on a regular basis, learning things the State would normally censor. It would take something remarkable to not lose yourself in the culture shock and confusion. Only the most powerful indoctrination would keep you in check. It's like a North Korean suddenly moving to the United States in their early twenties - do you really think they would still act completely North Korean after a few years?
The struggle this eventually presents is - how subtle is it? How obvious is it? Did I go too far with portraying her slow transition into a more worldly attitude and lifestyle? Has she lost her roots, or is she still firmly planted in State tradition? This is the crux of my RP difficulties, is handling this transition as believably and effectively as possible without it being a jarring contradiction in presentations.
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The reasons for abhoring the militia is mostly due to the fact that Ishukone loyalists have no need to contribute to the militia.
Ishukone owns nothing in Black Rise (note the lack of stations), and can conduct their business perfectly in Intaki under either occupation. There's no reason for an Ishukone loyalist to fight and die for other corporations. She answers the war cries of "Gallente are invading Caldari space!!!!" with "No, just your corporation's space. Not Ishukone's."
Ahhh, I see now, that makes perfect sense and really any Caldari of a business mind rather than a state/nationalistic mind will see your logic and agree that Ishukone doesn't need to be involved. Although I'd keep Kat away from Kaalakoita employees, they're all doped up on "the state" and "Gallente vs Caldari" and that was before Heth and after him... dear me, speak softly and carry a big stick.
My goal is actually to play a believable Caldari, one who could fit in with the State while still not being a monochrome corporate drone. I wanted people to say, "Oh so that's what the Caldari are really like..." On the outside, she would appear to be Caldari exemplar, but on the inside she turns out to have layers upon layers of secrets both good and bad.
This is the awesome we should all aspire to, in fact it's kind of how I'm trying to build my new Caldari character, to be honest the points you raise are of great inspiration in the process and I think the character you've built is one of the most believable Caldari I've ever seen. Good luck in further developing her to be even more believable and 3D and real.
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... so if she's extremely successful and popular she could probably be living and voting in Gallente space and still be looked up to by the other Caldari. ...
She does not vote in Gallente space.
Despite her automatic citizenship by marrying Erys, she has redirected all political stuff from the Fed right to the junk mail bin. She absolutely refuses to 'take part' in the Federation outside her marriage. She tends to justify this with alternating excuses of paranoia or disgust, depending on whether she's fought with another State or Federation loyalist most recently.
I'm aware of that, I was using it as a rhetorical flourish to say she could be a lot LESS Caldari and she'd still be held up as a model if she was successful. Hence the Yao Ming/China reference a bit later.
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Ahh, fair enough. I was just clarifying too. :)
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Ahh, fair enough. I was just clarifying too. :)
No problem. Just sort of think people go a bit far making their characters seem like paragons by making characters sort of fit the mold. It's sort of the way people in my country will, every now and then, point out a person living the 'Murkin way doing 'Murkin things. And then they're gone. The people we seem to remember aren't remembered for adhering to the script, they are people who kind of fit but are remarkable in some way. Carl Sagan for his brilliant way of explaining complex metaphysical concepts. Marilyn Manson for couching his gifted lyricism in an old Alice Cooper impersonation. Kim Kardashian for... something.
But when we see politicians doing things that are that patently nationalistic and paragonal, we immediately understand it to be an act. Like George W. Bush owning a ranch in Texas. He's not even from Texas, he's from New Haven, Connecticut and went to a boarding school in Massachusetts, and he definitely wasn't a rancher, he has a BA in history from Yale and a Masters in business from Harvard. We all know the rancher act was a ploy to make him seem folksy and down-home so that he could say, "Look at me, I'm 'Murkin."
Americans know better; people who are trying that hard are acting. Nobody adheres to that many bad stereotypes. So it seems funny that that's kind of how EVE empires are often played out. You'd think that seeing people being absolutely Caldari would make people suspicious or incredulous, not awestruck.
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UPDATE
So, I find myself at an impasse. I'm not sure what to think of my character, or how she has evolved. In a discussion with a friend, they pretty openly pointed out that Katrina is not the Caldari exemplar. She married a Gallentean female. This is, of course, to be expected - but how bad does it go? How far from the Caldari example is she?
Living in a luxurious house on her own career profits, married to a female Gallentean, and generally abhors the militia wars.
On the other hand, she is portrayed as constantly working in her office for I-RED/Ishukone, speaks often and loudly in defense of the State (or against Heth), has a combat record for I-RED and campaign experience there, and has generally tried to keep a public face worth being proud of... with a few exceptions.
So, while her private life is certainly quite comfortable and luxurious, she tries to balance it by being the best worker she can be and tries to remain humble. She rarely ventures outside her office, and tends to remain focused on her work if she isn't at home. She doesn't like flaunting her wealth or accomplishments (mostly because I don't like trying to convince others to acknowledge them).
In your opinion, on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being Outcast Scum and 10 being a Paragon of the Caldari People... how would you rate Katrina?
Do you think her portrayal is an effective and engaging one?
Do you think it spits in the face of PF or is otherwise unfitting for how she is portrayed?
Do you think I should abandon the concept of 'trying to be Caldari' and just focus wholly on making her an independent freed from nationalist bonds or influences?
I haven't RP'd with Kat enough to make a scaled judgement call :)
But, given the other information you volunteered at the start of this post ... have you considered that it's not about Kat as good Caldari vs. Kat as bad Caldari. What it might be is Kat (human) vs. Kat (capsuleer)? (Re-read the post - clearly you have)
I mean, how often do you have to die (and have your crew perish) for I-RED to prove your loyalty and duty to them? When does the rallying cry of 'For I-RED! For Ishukone! For the State!' start to lose its potency? Is it measured in ISK earnt? Lives given? Battles won or lost? Sacrifices made - physical, emotional or otherwise?
At what point does it become clear that - under the right set of controlled conditions - Kat may well outlive I-RED, Ishukone and the State itself? And what then?
I don't think this answers any questions for you except to say that what you're trying to sound out as 'am I doinitwrong?' might actually be Kat's character developing in a less structured way than what might have been planned out for her from the beginning?
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Maybe try to make your ooc bleedover into an aspect of Kat's character?
I do this with Aya all the time or, that is just how I RP...
Honestly it seems weird to see this post. To me you were always one of THE RPers and Kat one of THE characters. I know a 'you are doing great' may not be constructive but I have always liked how you do you =)
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I haven't RP'd with Kat enough to make a scaled judgement call :)
But, given the other information you volunteered at the start of this post ... have you considered that it's not about Kat as good Caldari vs. Kat as bad Caldari. What it might be is Kat (human) vs. Kat (capsuleer)? (Re-read the post - clearly you have)
I mean, how often do you have to die (and have your crew perish) for I-RED to prove your loyalty and duty to them? When does the rallying cry of 'For I-RED! For Ishukone! For the State!' start to lose its potency? Is it measured in ISK earnt? Lives given? Battles won or lost? Sacrifices made - physical, emotional or otherwise?
At what point does it become clear that - under the right set of controlled conditions - Kat may well outlive I-RED, Ishukone and the State itself? And what then?
I don't think this answers any questions for you except to say that what you're trying to sound out as 'am I doinitwrong?' might actually be Kat's character developing in a less structured way than what might have been planned out for her from the beginning?
For a moment, your post sounded like the trailer for Inferno expansion. :lol:
Aside, you ask some good questions. I do touch on the existential crisis of being immortal from time to time, but right now I think her focus and mine is more on trying to acclimate to the current situation.
You're right about the way she has developed. As stated earlier in the thread, lore served as a template for me to begin with, and Katrina has long since evolved outside those boundaries of stereotypes. As I've gone on, it has indeed become less structured as various things both IC and OOC have caused changes to her development.
I've been keeping an eye on possible future developments, but honestly - until CCP's storyline does indeed start portraying the downfall of the Big Four, it's not something I feel is worth putting too much effort into. Neither I nor she see an imminent end to Ishukone.
Maybe try to make your ooc bleedover into an aspect of Kat's character?
I do this with Aya all the time or, that is just how I RP...
Honestly it seems weird to see this post. To me you were always one of THE RPers and Kat one of THE characters. I know a 'you are doing great' may not be constructive but I have always liked how you do you =)
That's what I try to do. Find IC reasons for OOC outbursts!
As for me being one of "THE" RPers... I guess everyone needs a bit of help from time to time? I got here with the help of the whole community (as this ten page thread shows), not by myself. So any success I have around here leaves plenty of credit due to all of you.
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Having spoken of this with Kat at length other-where, I'd just like to say...
Those of you who took the time to provide input, thank you.