Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 17 Oct 2013, 08:38
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So, one thing I'm a little uncomfortable with is the assertion that Gallenteans suddenly hate Minmatar and are extremely racist towards non-Feds. This is a new thing since the Minmatar-Gallente tensions and seems to run COMPLETELY counter to everything we know about the Gallente so far. Out of the four empires, it is explicitly stated the Fed is very welcoming of other cultures, in complete opposition to the "dictatorships and oligarchies" of other empires.
There's a difference between saying racism doesn't exist in the Fed (which no Gallente character has claimed thus far) and saying that it is rampant and that every Gallentean is a racist. Of course, racism exists in the Fed as anywhere else, directed at any ethnic origin as the Senate's report in-universe claimed, but it would have far less instances of institutional racism like the other empires may be accused of. It has a constitution that specifically enforces non-discrimination, after all. The Gallente acknowledge that discrimination exists, and in an effort against that, they put laws to prevent it. It won't always work, mind, and I think all Gallente RPers both IC and OOC know that.
It's also a bit bizarre to see non-Gallente RPers use the term "hate crime", considering this was a thing developed in the West specifically after the Second World War.
At any rate, getting a bit exhausted with how Minmatar RPers are trying to force upon Gallente characters via meta-IC/OOC efforts that we have to play racists all of a sudden, or at least arbitrarily accept that the view of a "racist Federation" (which has minimal lore backing) is suddenly PF.
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Gallente always have been O_o there's always that undertone of racism. Hell look at the U-Nats.
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Well, yeah, but the existence of U-Nats would be "racism exists". It's more that "racism is a defining element of the Federation" which I'm suddenly like "er, no" about.
Anyway, posted an Elusenian news reports (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3748750&#post3748750) to offer an alternative dimension to the ongoing IC debate!
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I think it was the increase in refugees that started it off, and the Colleile (i'll never spell this right) incident that made it all boil over to show just how prevalent racism is in the Fed.
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The arc seems to mirror some of the modern democracies problems with immigration. Whether you believe there is a problem or not is a matter for another discussion and one I won't be drawn on; But this appears to be the theme being played upon by CCP.
It stems from the feeling by both sides of victimisation. It this particular case, the Minnies with the death of Midular, killed by a fed and denied access to immediate justice (again, whether they deserve it or not is irrelevant, it's a feeling). Because of this they feel like second class citizens in the Federation. On the other hand, the Fed feel that they have done all they reasonably can as friends and are being pushed too far. It's caused the resentment between the two which has caused a surge in violence and rhetoric as seen in both the game news and RP.
It's a story of each looking after their own. Perhaps a bit too zealously.
I don't think there's anything more sinister to it. The Fed isn't suddenly the most racist of racists that ever racisted(? :eek: !). Basically, I think you're reading in to it too much, though I understand your reasons for doing so.
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I think that stems a lot from the fact that's it's just one of the easiest federal flaws/hypocrisy to find and exploit. Much like slavery for the Amarr. So people tend to put the emphasis on that a little too much, especially in the news.
On the other hand, the Fed is the only empire that clearly enforces equality and prohibits xenophobic beliefs. It is thus only normal to see such issues and themes revolving around that specific issue since it's a total nonsense in the 3 remaining empires, where xenophobia is "normal" or "we don't care".
Note : U-Nats are clearly stated as almost extincts, much like nazis are these days. You only see a few minor but vocal groups of neo-nazi/neo-unats here and there.
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Note : U-Nats are clearly stated as almost extincts, much like nazis are these days. You only see a few minor but vocal groups of neo-nazi/neo-unats here and there.
So what you mean to say here is that we will nazi them outside of the stereotyped "vocal minority"?
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Oh, I enjoy the themes coming up from it, and welcome deep discussion IC and OOC on it...it's some individual anecdotes I'm taking issues with. In some cases, I am blocked IC from trying to fight back against the assertion the Fed is widespread racist. It's as Lyn said...
On the other hand, the Fed is the only empire that clearly enforces equality and prohibits xenophobic beliefs. It is thus only normal to see such issues and themes revolving around that specific issue since it's a total nonsense in the 3 remaining empires, where xenophobia is "normal" or "we don't care".
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The Federation, in the lore I've read, is 'colour-blind' in the sense that it actually doesn't give a damn about your ethnicity from an administrative level. If I remember the Gallente lore dump right, FedGov biographies list 'identification' instead of 'ethnicity' - and sometimes they have neither at all.
To some people, that can be seen as racist. Not having 'positive discrimination' can be rallied against as being racist.
Is there active racism? Not from the administration. Passive? Very possibly, and that increases as you move away from the government and into the people themselves.
There would be the fear of 'they're taking our jobs' in a competitive capitalist society with next to no social safety net. There would be a fear of stability in the 'tried, tested and true' Gallentean way of life when there's a sudden 'flood' of immigrants which, at best are from the Republic and are open to some Federate ideals, but would most likely be straight from the Amarr Empire, freed slaves which, regardless of their views on slavery would still have grown up immersed in Amarrian culture and ideals.
There'd be legitimate 'fear' in the Gallente/Mannar/Caldari/Intaki populations in particular in the Federation about the instability that new Minmatar immigrants may result in. Hell, that fear may also exist in some fully-integrated Minmatar communities.
I don't think that the Federation is racist, it's people on the other hand, I just think they're having typical reactions that a fraction of any human population would have.
Should it be such a big issue in the Federation, I don't know, I really don't.
Is making it about race appropriate for Federation capsuleers, I don't think so. I think it's right for the Federation guys to be like 'um, what even are you talking about, this is just a murder trial' and for Matari capsuleers to be big on 'kin and tribe' and so on (which in itself shows the Gallente traditional way of doing things conflicting with Matari newcomers and their view on things). That's what's been happening, and it'll be interesting to see how it ends up.
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I realize that Federation does not equal Space America... but it's worth noting something.
America is famous for being a melting pot. Welcoming of all cultures, American Dream, Land of the Brave, Home of the Free. That doesn't change the fact that there are deep currents of racism in America. America is a young country, whose populations have relatively recently come together and intermingled.
The Federation is only about as old as real America is, and they are probably still struggling with integrating their populations and immigrants into the cultural fold. Every country I know of in reality that has large enclaves of a different culture, including the UK, has this issue of racism among the populace and entrenched majority cultures.
I think it was to be expected, and I always thought it was completely unrealistic that the Federation would be anything but struggling to integrate the sudden 1/3 population of Minmatar without issue. I think the storyline works just fine.
Player anecdotes is just something you'll have to tackle on a case-by-case basis. I can't offer advice beyond 'use your best judgement'.
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Welcome to your turn in the spotlight Seriphyn. It can be (quite) uncomfortable when almost everyone you come into IC contact with is accusing your character of things that they don't personally agree with nor does your clan/corp/alliance/faction. It gets annoying after a while feeling as if you need to be constantly on the defensive. Believe me, I know the feeling after the Colelie crap and sympathize. However, I agree with Lyn and Laurent that this current stuff is simply people picking at the low hanging fruit. I wouldn't read too much into it. I don't feel that people are attempting to make endemic racism part of the Federation's PF or to force it onto Fed RPers.
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I don't feel that people are attempting to make endemic racism part of the Federation's PF or to force it onto Fed RPers.
Actually some people have been trying to do this for years, especially with regards to the state of the Federation/Republic's relationship. It's like the people who say all Amarrians are slavers etc. There's a few scenarios where people invest themselves OOCly into IC politics and push their perspective of a rival faction as hard as till other people actually think it's the way things are.
Fortunately, one of the few upshots that I have as Cael (political neutrality be damned when you want to PvP!) is that I can sit on the sideline and be exempt from racial profiling, you watch a lot of this go on. It's very much the phrase "I reject your reality and substitute it with my own." Only this case the reality is CCP's PF and people wanting to change it to fit an agenda that favours their character.
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From the reading of the Gallente Federation I have done, I get more a sense of Canada than the US in terms of cultural acceptance...Canada is a cultural mosaic, wherein immigrants are allowed to, and even encouraged and supported to, practice their traditions and culture so long as it doesn't violate the constitution. And that is how I see the Federation...the Jin-Mei are allowed to keep their caste system and traditions, the Intaki can do their thing and the minor members get to keep their culture. The Gallente themselves are the only ones who seem to have lost their own culture (in a sense) as they've embraced and adopted aspects of the other members' culture into their own.
Heck, just reading the description of the Ethnic Gallente, there's pretty much no such thing anymore.
Yes, there's likely going to be discrimination amongst populations...it is apparently human nature to fear the different and the unknown and it is easier to remain ignorant that to push past that fear and learn and understand a different culture. That said, these would be isolated cases and not the 'racism and discrimination run rampant throughout the Federation' that a handful of people have started shouting about the last little while.
I don't believe the Gallente Federation to be the best or the 'good guys' in EVE; heck there are ideals within the Caldari that I associate more closely to than the Federation. Each empire has its flaws and short-comings and each empire has their own way of dealing with it. What has gotten my ire up recently though are the claims being made by non-Gallente who have never spent time within Federation space (outside of possibly going in to blow up some ships). Honestly, why the hell do you even care other than to sling crap at others?
Steffanie is not a staunch supporter of the Federation as it currently stands...she sees it as having strayed from the founding principles and especially does not like Roden or the existence of the Black Eagles. But she doesn't rave about it, nor does she rave about the short-comings (perceived or actual) of the other empires either. She doesn't believe slavery to be a good thing, but she is friendly with a few Holders and such. She doesn't like the oppressiveness of the Caldari state, but is friends with quite a few Caldari and admires the State as well as seeing them as brothers if not close cousins of the Ethnic Gallente. She likes quite a few of the Minmatar...though the passionate zeal to strike out violently at oppression or perceived slights bothers her.
Anyway, that's my stream of conscious thought on the matter, though I might come back with a few more things to say.
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The Federation, in the lore I've read, is 'colour-blind' in the sense that it actually doesn't give a damn about your ethnicity from an administrative level.
One of the early news stories in the current Gallente/Minmatar tensions arc was the Odenjorn vs. Center for Advanced Studies case (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2796851#post2796851) that highlighted the lack of recognition for the different Minmatar tribes at the Center of Advanced Studies.
Not racist as such. Just culturally insensitive and oblivious to any offense caused.
In the Solitude region, the lore suggests racism is commonplace (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Solitude#Demographics_.26_Culture), despite the efforts of the authorities.
Ethnic and/or mixed Gallente dominate, and while there are plentiful minority groups in the region, they tend to suffer from racial discrimination, and are confined to the lower echelons of the socioeconomic ladder. While the Supreme Court has taken steps to curb racism in Solitude in order to bring the region in line with elsewhere in the Federation, indirect discrimination remains a problem.
The largest minority in Solitude are Intaki, who either migrate from Placid or from the Syndicate. Solitude is the only region in the wider country, however, where individuals of Intaki descent find themselves pushed down to the bottom of the social ladder.
As other have said. The issue has always been there. Recent tensions are just bringing them to the surface.
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There's a difference between organized (state sanctioned) racism and, well, what people do.
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It's always been my impression that the Federation is not racist but is, instead CULTURALLY IMPERIALISTIC. Midular was spreading Minmatar culture within the Federation. The Brutor who has been held pending conviction is a Minmatar from outside the Federation, I think.
The Federation has always been interested and deeply concerned with exporting it's culture outside of it's borders and integrating disparate cultures within it's borders. Isn't that what the Cal/Gal war was about?
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I just think it's about fucking time for the last archtypical good guy of New Eden to wear the bad guy hat with a healthy dose of ugliness beneath the surface. :D
o7o7 m8m8
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I just think it's about fucking time for the last archtypical good guy of New Eden to wear the bad guy hat with a healthy dose of ugliness beneath the surface. :D
o7o7 m8m8
Protip: Colelie was a few months ago.
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And at Colelie, the Minmatarts were the bad guy. And not for the first time. I have never seen the Federation portrayed in such an ugly light by CCP.
Protip: protips are SO 2007, Morlag :p
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Most of the time it has rather been more like crass incompetents.
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And at Colelie, the Minmatarts were the bad guy. And not for the first time. I have never seen the Federation portrayed in such an ugly light by CCP.
Protip: protips are SO 2007, Morlag :p
I think burning people alive on tv with a chemical fire that activates by crowd noise and calling it justice is pretty bad light. The Black Eagles hasn't been a very good guy move either. Granted, the first example is pretty much around 2008 so it's been a while.
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I think I missed the whole black eagles thing. And admittedly I forgot all about the immolation. That was pretty awesome. My bad FedRP bloc, your faction HAS been evil before. :oops:
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The core issue I think is that Federation is not so well fleshed out as a work of speculative fiction. We know some things about the government and politics, and after that it's anything goes with all varieties or just like real life or just like US.
It's easier to defend Amarr slavery, State eugenics or tribal favoritism because they're more clearly framed as products of imagination, and their RL counterparts are more distant from the world of an average player from the western sphere.
Generally speaking, I like it that it's CCP which brings hot topic issues to discussion. People like to argue about popular talking points, but when players have tried to take this role and to bring them up in character, it seems they've been experiencing problems with getting their claims accepted, and also carrying a load of personal risk.
The Colelie/Broteau arc has been sort of alright so far but it's still like playing with fire, all the participants from the Fed side are taking a risk of getting perceived and labeled as racists, in and out of character, regardless of their intentions, and if it happens, they have no other option than to biomass or abandon their toon/toons and go do something else.
This is not so much of an issue with the flashy executions, or special operatives, they're news items whose personal, everyday life component is not so pronounced, and at least I wouldn't mind seeing more related content in the future. Every faction needs some rotten cabbage, but it should be accompanied with a bowlful of mashed sci-fi.
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Minmatar immigration at all time high!
(http://the-libertarian.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/They-Took-Our-Jobs.png)
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The core issue I think is that Federation is not so well fleshed out as a work of speculative fiction. We know some things about the government and politics, and after that it's anything goes with all varieties or just like real life or just like US.
It's easier to defend Amarr slavery, State eugenics or tribal favoritism because they're more clearly framed as products of imagination, and their RL counterparts are more distant from the world of an average player from the western sphere.
I really don't know why CCP shy away from going along with "high-tech democracy" and really utilizing sci-fi tropes to far remove the Gallente democracy from our versions of it IRL. Instead we're getting a storyline that you could put IRL and not see the difference.
Hell, I dunno, maybe they could make the Fed some Greco-Roman style elitist democracy with Citizens separate from everyone else...or Citizens are some transhumanist bodymodders that anyone can become (perhaps if they can even afford it), and they all make decisions by some giant interstellar e-legislature, and the natural humans sort of live on with it under some enlightened oligarchy.
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I really don't know why CCP shy away from going along with "high-tech democracy" and really utilizing sci-fi tropes to far remove the Gallente democracy from our versions of it IRL. Instead we're getting a storyline that you could put IRL and not see the difference.
Hell, I dunno, maybe they could make the Fed some Greco-Roman style elitist democracy with Citizens separate from everyone else...or Citizens are some transhumanist bodymodders that anyone can become (perhaps if they can even afford it), and they all make decisions by some giant interstellar e-legislature, and the natural humans sort of live on with it under some enlightened oligarchy.
Well, I imagine it might be that they're looking for something somewhat more familiar, recognizable, and relatively familiar to your average player.
Personally, as someone who advocated that CCP actually consider using some real-life examples of the problems with democracy to rub a little realistic grit and grime into the faction, I'm wholly in favor of what they are doing. It's also nice to see the "wholly holy and good" (IMO, of course) get three-dimensionalized.
Nobody gets to have a perfect world. Not even the Gallente.
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I really don't know why CCP shy away from going along with "high-tech democracy" and really utilizing sci-fi tropes to far remove the Gallente democracy from our versions of it IRL. Instead we're getting a storyline that you could put IRL and not see the difference.
Hell, I dunno, maybe they could make the Fed some Greco-Roman style elitist democracy with Citizens separate from everyone else...or Citizens are some transhumanist bodymodders that anyone can become (perhaps if they can even afford it), and they all make decisions by some giant interstellar e-legislature, and the natural humans sort of live on with it under some enlightened oligarchy.
I am sorry, how does what you described separate it from real life at all?
Plenty of people draw parallels between the current state of the Republic of the United States and the late Roman Republic. And it is not that hard to consider the idea of a unnaturally extended oligarchy taking control of a government and preventing naturals from breaking into their ranks. It would be like an African oligarchy getting western health care and living twice as long as their average citizen.
One of the utilities of science fiction (and fiction in general) is to explore real life issues outside the context of real life. My best example of this is an episode of Battlestar Galactica (new version) in which the issue is abortion rights.
[spoiler]A young woman is pregnant and is not ready to be a mother. Her parents are very conservative and they are on a ship from a conservative colony and she can not get an abortion there. She "flees" to the Galactica and goes to the ship's doctor. This creates all kinds of drama! The family and her ship demands the daughter be returned and that no abortion carried out. It spirals into a political issue, are abortions legal in the fleet?
Eventually the Council of Twelve and the President declare it illegal to have an abortion! The reasoning is sound, every human life is important when you only have ~10,000 people. The Galactica's doctor performs the procedure anyway, based on his beliefs (and he is essentially to valuable to punish for the "new" crime).[/spoiler]
I think if CCP wants to explore what it means to have an influx of immigrants into a democracy and how that transforms the democracy, more power to them. The challenge is to make it seem plausible and not forced.
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Well, I imagine it might be that they're looking for something somewhat more familiar, recognizable, and relatively familiar to your average player.
It's not working. Most people come to EVE looking for sci-fi (or scamming, heists, ganks etc.)
Personally, as someone who advocated that CCP actually consider using some real-life examples of the problems with democracy to rub a little realistic grit and grime into the faction, I'm wholly in favor of what they are doing. It's also nice to see the "wholly holy and good" (IMO, of course) get three-dimensionalized.
Nobody gets to have a perfect world. Not even the Gallente.
I don't understand where do you get this idea. If you took a look at the lore, you would notice there is already quite a bit of grey shades. Nevertheless, I'm right there with you that more grit and grime wouldn't hurt at all, but it should remain in the realm of speculative fiction, just like for the other factions.
If someone asks you what do you do in EVE, everyone should be able tell about it without embarrassment. For the other factions, you can cook up an answer based on the noble houses, theocracy, freedom fighting, tribalism, megacorps, meritocracy etc. It works.
For the Gallente, can you really say you're advocating democracy, progressive policies, social democracy, or anti-immigrant punditry without sounding dubious and creating confusion? Does it sound fun? Sure, if you read all the relevant news items and chronicles, the story you can parse together makes it clear that all of these are subtly different from their real world equivalents but it doesn't really help with this issue.
There are sci-fi titles like Deux Ex, Blade Runner, Akira, GITS, Cowboy Bebop etc which are roughly as close to real life as the Federation is and have social commentary and all that stuff, but that's not the first thing that comes to mind, as it shouldn't be.
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One of the utilities of science fiction (and fiction in general) is to explore real life issues outside the context of real life.
Except there's nothing really science fiction about Gallente democracy, nor is this whole immigrant issue. In fact, all we hear IRL is about immigrants. We escape to a scifi universe and hear the exact same thing.
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I really don't know why CCP shy away from going along with "high-tech democracy" and really utilizing sci-fi tropes to far remove the Gallente democracy from our versions of it IRL. Instead we're getting a storyline that you could put IRL and not see the difference.
Hell, I dunno, maybe they could make the Fed some Greco-Roman style elitist democracy with Citizens separate from everyone else...or Citizens are some transhumanist bodymodders that anyone can become (perhaps if they can even afford it), and they all make decisions by some giant interstellar e-legislature, and the natural humans sort of live on with it under some enlightened oligarchy.
Well, I imagine it might be that they're looking for something somewhat more familiar, recognizable, and relatively familiar to your average player.
Personally, as someone who advocated that CCP actually consider using some real-life examples of the problems with democracy to rub a little realistic grit and grime into the faction, I'm wholly in favor of what they are doing. It's also nice to see the "wholly holy and good" (IMO, of course) get three-dimensionalized.
Nobody gets to have a perfect world. Not even the Gallente.
I think both are cool. It's good to have some RL inspired stuff, democracy issues and stuff like that, but sometimes I would also like to hear more about Alpha cities, egonics, and pure techno punk related stuff. Not that it has always to be the feds for that, period, but still...
When I read about the gallente demographics, I see a lot of material that is rarely used in news, like Gamma/Omega cities, local laws, or even better (never heard of anywhere else than in the demographic article), gallente rural areas.
So yes, I agree with Seri and Etienne, we could read most of their articles out of their context and not even be aware it's about a SF world... :/
In Deus Ex HR they introduce the new technology of human augmentation and H+, and they explore the political/social context around that. In Deus Ex 1 they introduce the internet globalization and the drastic change of geopolitics, and explore the context around that.
In Blade Runner they introduce the concept of androids looking and acting like humans do, and how and why they are hunted down, and the ethical issues arising from that.
That kind of stuff. It often looks like when it's about the 4 empires, it's about RL like politics, and when it's about mysteries like Jove/Sleeper/Drones, we finally get to hear about technology and science fiction... At least the Amarr have their sacred flesh issue with cloning...
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One of the utilities of science fiction (and fiction in general) is to explore real life issues outside the context of real life.
Except there's nothing really science fiction about Gallente democracy, nor is this whole immigrant issue. In fact, all we hear IRL is about immigrants. We escape to a scifi universe and hear the exact same thing.
Nothing science fiction about the 388 star system Federation founded on democratic principles?
Nothing science fiction about the large immigrant population being from a group of humans with whom the Gallente first made contact while the group was largely slaves to another interstellar human civilization, with whom there has been zero contact for over 15,000 years?
CCP has down played just how alien the Gallente, Minmatar, and Amarr should be from each other. It is longer than humans have been conducting agriculture. It does not even need to be racism, it is a fundamental lack of comprehending the other sentient's thought processes.
Would it be more science fiction if the Minmatar were not human? How would that change the story?
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I find it almost comforting to see EVE's far-future, alien societies struggle with the same day-to-day problems we do. Familiar, banal, and apparently inherent and ineradicable evils fit a dystopian setting quite well.
So, in answer to the title question: no. There's nothing sudden about it..
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Really, I think the entire reason this came up in the Gallente Federation instead of anywhere else is simple: it doesn't anywhere else and it's a great piece of ammunition for racists outside the Federation.
Let's face it, most of the characters on the IGS are really looking for reasons to dislike each other; EVE is a pretty distopian game that definitely plays up the petty grievances people have with each other into full-blown wars. That's what draws people to the endgame. Minmatar get shit every time any single one of them is violent, Caldari get shit every single time one of them is authoritarian, and the Amarr get shit every single time their human rights record is brought into question. It's just fuel for the fire.
So that's why this one singular court case is probably big news, because it is a negative case that strikes at the heart of what is said to be great about Gallente society. One issue suddenly brought out the racist, anti-immigrant minority in Federation space and now, you're all racists. Nevermind that segregation is rife everywhere else, the Gallente claim to be a free society so every little bit of story that seems to disprove that is going to get a lot of play. It's understandable. If somebody kills people in self defense, but there's questions about whether they were overzealous and crossed into murder, that's not noteworthy. It's noteworthy if THE ENTIRE GALLENTE FEDERATION IS A LIE!
Constantin didn't take the bait, but that's exactly the kinds of things rulers play to people in other countries, showing them why life there is so great where they live compared to everywhere else. "The UK is free? Look at the BNP! Obviously, it's just as racist as Saudi Arabia!" So having Matari talking shit about the Gallente Federation is totally understandable and reasonable. It's supposed to feel frustrating, because pretty much everyone knows it's essentially a scam. The Federation is probably more free than anywhere else in the cluster. Even if it's not perfect, it's a damn sight better than their next-nearest competitors. But their characters might be buying into it because, frankly, they're racists brought up in a racist society. It's comforting to see the light of the Federation take a hit so that they can revel in the schadenfreude.
I wouldn't take it personally. Just like we Amarr are going to have people playing the slavery button every time anything remotely positive is said about their propensity for moral living, the Federation gets to deal with every single instance of racial and cultural dissonance as if it's emblematic of the Federation. Just ignore the static and go on.
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EvE is a pvp game. RP is no different.
Welcome to it. Knowledge, a fast wit, good typing skills, and vocabulary are you weapons now. Overheat everything and train thick skin to V.
Cause let me tell you mate, it is the one with the stakes.
It is hard to burn someone out by pewing, easer with ganking. Better with protracted wars, gate camps and hellcamps.
But IC drama? maaaaaaaaate
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CCP has down played just how alien the Gallente, Minmatar, and Amarr should be from each other. It is longer than humans have been conducting agriculture. It does not even need to be racism, it is a fundamental lack of comprehending the other sentient's thought processes.
Yes, one hundred thousand times yes. Even if the original settlers had come from fundamentally identical mindsets (and there's no reason to assume that, especially given that the original Amarr were part of a religious sect, if I'm remembering right), they would have diverged over time, thanks to the complete destruction of their settlements and the loss of contact with the rest of the universe.
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CCP has down played just how alien the Gallente, Minmatar, and Amarr should be from each other. It is longer than humans have been conducting agriculture. It does not even need to be racism, it is a fundamental lack of comprehending the other sentient's thought processes.
Yes, one hundred thousand times yes. Even if the original settlers had come from fundamentally identical mindsets (and there's no reason to assume that, especially given that the original Amarr were part of a religious sect, if I'm remembering right), they would have diverged over time, thanks to the complete destruction of their settlements and the loss of contact with the rest of the universe.
I think it might be important not how distant the cultures were from each other, but how long they have been in contact. Does anyone have a decent timeline? Some cultures are more resistant to cultural blending than others, but it doesn't usually take very long before any two cultures who are in contact with one another to start assimilating bits and pieces. We might not completely understand each others' cultures sometimes as any better than caricature, but it only took the Internet a few decades to sort of erase all but the most distant cultures we'd probably see as alien.
I'm kind of surprised that, given how many Matari are living in the Amarr and Gallente Empires, as well as the fact that all empires seem to be cross-pollinating shared industrial projects, that the empires aren't closer together than they are. I mean, there's an even more ubiquitous network of computer systems in the EVE world. You'd think there would at least be goths by now or whatever trans-nationalist movements there would be. I know I have more in common with metalheads in Tehran than I do with my next-door neighbor.
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One of the utilities of science fiction (and fiction in general) is to explore real life issues outside the context of real life.
Except there's nothing really science fiction about Gallente democracy, nor is this whole immigrant issue. In fact, all we hear IRL is about immigrants. We escape to a scifi universe and hear the exact same thing.
Nothing science fiction about the 388 star system Federation founded on democratic principles?
Nothing science fiction about the large immigrant population being from a group of humans with whom the Gallente first made contact while the group was largely slaves to another interstellar human civilization, with whom there has been zero contact for over 15,000 years?
CCP has down played just how alien the Gallente, Minmatar, and Amarr should be from each other. It is longer than humans have been conducting agriculture. It does not even need to be racism, it is a fundamental lack of comprehending the other sentient's thought processes.
Would it be more science fiction if the Minmatar were not human? How would that change the story?
I totally agree, there should be some wild divergence, but all those large numbers don't really seem to have that much influence on how the Federation is portrayed in the chronicles and news items, it's pretty much a generic western country.
Exploring societal issues with cybernetic augs, rogue AIs, aliens etc is a common theme in speculative fiction, and the whole point is to explore how would it affect the story. Bringing real life arguments directly in the game is possible only in the Federal context, but like Ayallah says, if I understood her correctly, only gives ammo for metagaming tactics.
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Would it be more science fiction if the Minmatar were not human? How would that change the story?
Like in District 9 ?
A lot.
CCP has down played just how alien the Gallente, Minmatar, and Amarr should be from each other. It is longer than humans have been conducting agriculture. It does not even need to be racism, it is a fundamental lack of comprehending the other sentient's thought processes.
Yes, one hundred thousand times yes. Even if the original settlers had come from fundamentally identical mindsets (and there's no reason to assume that, especially given that the original Amarr were part of a religious sect, if I'm remembering right), they would have diverged over time, thanks to the complete destruction of their settlements and the loss of contact with the rest of the universe.
I think it might be important not how distant the cultures were from each other, but how long they have been in contact. Does anyone have a decent timeline? Some cultures are more resistant to cultural blending than others, but it doesn't usually take very long before any two cultures who are in contact with one another to start assimilating bits and pieces. We might not completely understand each others' cultures sometimes as any better than caricature, but it only took the Internet a few decades to sort of erase all but the most distant cultures we'd probably see as alien.
I'm kind of surprised that, given how many Matari are living in the Amarr and Gallente Empires, as well as the fact that all empires seem to be cross-pollinating shared industrial projects, that the empires aren't closer together than they are. I mean, there's an even more ubiquitous network of computer systems in the EVE world. You'd think there would at least be goths by now or whatever trans-nationalist movements there would be. I know I have more in common with metalheads in Tehran than I do with my next-door neighbor.
Considering what is hinted at or said in PF, it depends of the empire in question.
For the Amarr and the Caldari, which are completely hermetic and closed, I hardly see them very different than DPRK is IRL on that side. There is still trading happening between them and the others, and the Amarr/Gallente for example have been completely closed to each other at the beginning, and when trade agreements finally happened, they were less so... But the Amarr Empire still remains almost completely closed, like the Caldari. Thus I don't expect them to have radically changed their culture (which is different from their mindset, that can change over decades or years according to the political landscape around, cf Vak'Atioth, or just evolving internally as everyone does).
Concerning the Gallente and Minmatar, it's the exact opposite. The very essence of the Federation is to phagocyte every culture it comes into contact with, which means in both ways : it is the very definition of the Federal enforced multi culti, integrating a culture into the whole and making it change in the process, like it is the case on the internet culture. Even if they have been isolated for centuries, considering their eagerness to absorb every culture into their own, I expect them to be a perfect mirror of the blending of every culture of New Eden, with a gallente, intaki and minmatar dominance. As for the Minmatar, they are a young state that was created after all culture met each other, so... The Republic is probably exempt from that, very gallente in essence btw. What is more alien to everyone in the Minmatar is their traditions themselves, they are progressively rediscovering.
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Yeah, the 388 solar systems doesn't make a difference, because like all the factions, the Fed is written from a nebulous, topdown fashion which sounds like a planetary country. Why would individuals on -completely separate planets- care about the same issues?
This was going to be the first of my PF vlogs incidentally, that CCP should really anchor their lore around a collection of highly detailed planets and explore their relationship, rather than these mythical "Gallente" and "Minmatar" which hover above as homogenizing forces. From Star Wars to Mass Effect, what makes these settings so compelling are their planets. I would say EVE has too -many- planets that as a result nobody knows what they're like, or at least they're supposed to be pretty similar to one another, enough that we could call two planets lightyears apart Caldari.
Rather than hundreds of planets per faction, each should have less than ten, highly detailed with artwork and massive loredumps. Then anchor the story around THESE worlds, their relationship with one another, and how they cooperate as a common unit against the other factions
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Welp, yeah...
Edit : sometimes imagining when CCP might read those forums, they surely cringe a lot "OMG THAT BITTER ROLEPLAY PLACE IS TOXIC"
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Would it be more science fiction if the Minmatar were not human? How would that change the story?
Like in District 9 ?
A lot.
Traders could make a killing moving cat food from Jita to working-class factory planets in the Federation for one. :twisted:
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Interesting...Mark726 JUST said right now that "The stories we're getting now aren't necessarily hard sci-fi. They could be taking place in any univerese; it's human politics, human drama".
YOU READING THESE FORUMS, MARK!?
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He does - hasn't posted in a while though.
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Would it be more science fiction if the Minmatar were not human? How would that change the story?
Like in District 9 ?
A lot.
District 9 itself was inspired by historical human events.
Exploring societal issues with cybernetic augs, rogue AIs, aliens etc is a common theme in speculative fiction, and the whole point is to explore how would it affect the story. Bringing real life arguments directly in the game is possible only in the Federal context, but like Ayallah says, if I understood her correctly, only gives ammo for metagaming tactics.
The societal questions revolving Cybernetic augs are real. Between Oscar Pistorius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Pistorius)'s engineered lower legs to societal reactions to Google Glass (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jure-klepic/people-arent-seeing-the-legal_b_4113417.html), I think any story dealing with cybernetic augmentation can be set in 2015, if not 2012. Is that science fiction?
Rogue AIs while more complex than tracking/advertising algorithms, but if we started to delve into the story about Google's or Amazon's tracking algorithms and its impact on a person or society and then how a single computer virus transformed a particular users experience, it could be set in 2013. It may not be a rogue AI following what appears to be its own agenda, but the idea of software when presented with false, incomplete, or overly complete data could have many of the same results.
I think real life arguments can be brought in through the other 4 core factions as well. Each faction can be an exploration of various aspects of western society taken to some extreme.
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Would it be more science fiction if the Minmatar were not human? How would that change the story?
Like in District 9 ?
A lot.
District 9 itself was inspired by historical human events.
District 9 was also containing a lot of SciFy elements (the ship(s), the mutating agent, the guns, etc). It was maybe not huge, but it was there.
Not saying that without any SF elements it's not scify though. But we are in Eve...
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Would it be more science fiction if the Minmatar were not human? How would that change the story?
Like in District 9 ?
A lot.
District 9 itself was inspired by historical human events.
District 9 was also containing a lot of SciFy elements (the ship(s), the mutating agent, the guns, etc). It was maybe not huge, but it was there.
Not saying that without any SF elements it's not scify though. But we are in Eve...
The best fiction, sci-fi or otherwise, always forces the reader to consider the human condition.
The way I'm interpreting the current trend of 'human drama' is in the context of a game that plays (somewhat superficially) on trans-human tensions. I'll admit that I've read some Eclipse Phase source materials recently too, so that might be colouring my view :)
We have these behemoth intergalactic empires struggling under the weight of their own humanity and 'old-world imperialist' concerns while simultaneously witnessing (and wondering how to control) the rapid expansion of a new era of humanity - the informorph/clone - where those same concerns are all but rendered null and void.
Who cares if some baseliner on a planet in some part of space one doesn't have a vested interest in murders other baseliners or acts in self defense? Why mourn for a disgraced Executor with an extremist political outlook that once served merely to prop up his corner of the old empires? Is your clone invested in the ideology of old or are they looking for a new way forward and what sacrifices is your character willing to make along the way?
I hope (not sure I'm right) that CCP is making use of these stories to illustrate the contrast between human concerns and that of the infomorph and transhuman. It seems to fit with their unstated drive to make the backstory of the second decade about the player and their impact on the game world rather than the NPCs and their actions as Rhavas (I think) noted in a blog earlier this year.
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Exploring societal issues with cybernetic augs, rogue AIs, aliens etc is a common theme in speculative fiction, and the whole point is to explore how would it affect the story. Bringing real life arguments directly in the game is possible only in the Federal context, but like Ayallah says, if I understood her correctly, only gives ammo for metagaming tactics.
The societal questions revolving Cybernetic augs are real. Between Oscar Pistorius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Pistorius)'s engineered lower legs to societal reactions to Google Glass (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jure-klepic/people-arent-seeing-the-legal_b_4113417.html), I think any story dealing with cybernetic augmentation can be set in 2015, if not 2012. Is that science fiction?
Rogue AIs while more complex than tracking/advertising algorithms, but if we started to delve into the story about Google's or Amazon's tracking algorithms and its impact on a person or society and then how a single computer virus transformed a particular users experience, it could be set in 2013. It may not be a rogue AI following what appears to be its own agenda, but the idea of software when presented with false, incomplete, or overly complete data could have many of the same results.
I think real life arguments can be brought in through the other 4 core factions as well. Each faction can be an exploration of various aspects of western society taken to some extreme.
Taken to the extreme is the point. If you take an issue and bring it up in an futuristic theocracy, or in the militaristic, indoctrinated State, or in a collapsed society, I think it's easier to put a different spin to it than if you remain in a generic western setting.
The AI/aug themes were just examples of how a societal division and the theme of the thread have been introduced in a setting which is close to the modern day/near future western world, basically what Lyn wrote in her post. It's true that these contraptions are rapidly losing their novelty value.
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It's always been my impression that the Federation is not racist but is, instead CULTURALLY IMPERIALISTIC. Midular was spreading Minmatar culture within the Federation. The Brutor who has been held pending conviction is a Minmatar from outside the Federation, I think.
The Federation has always been interested and deeply concerned with exporting it's culture outside of it's borders and integrating disparate cultures within it's borders. Isn't that what the Cal/Gal war was about?
Pieter I think your assessment is spot on.
Why oh why don't you people want to be free like we tell you to be free. :eek:
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It's always been my impression that the Federation is not racist but is, instead CULTURALLY IMPERIALISTIC. Midular was spreading Minmatar culture within the Federation. The Brutor who has been held pending conviction is a Minmatar from outside the Federation, I think.
The Federation has always been interested and deeply concerned with exporting it's culture outside of it's borders and integrating disparate cultures within it's borders. Isn't that what the Cal/Gal war was about?
Pieter I think your assessment is spot on.
Why oh why don't you people want to be free like we tell you to be free. :eek:
It is, except that a liiiiiittle touch of racism isn't mutually exclusive with that. I don't think the idea is that the Federation is overtly racist, just that race is not a non-issue. There are ugly undercurrents. (There seem to be, everywhere they aren't overcurrents.)
We kind of knew that, did we not?
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The idea that the Federation as an entity takes the stance of "meh, what the fuck ever" with regards to race, and any 'racist' tones are caused by other groups who add it into the equation themselves seems about right to me.
As an example, going back to the little employment/affirmative action news arc we had a while back - the Federation sees Minmatar as just that - people who are of Minmatar descent. But it doesn't give two shits bureaucratically about their clan or tribe because it isn't seen as relevant. "They're Minmatar. That's nice. Nobody cares what clan or tribe they're from, it's not relevant here."
That only becomes a racism issue when the Minmatar start stamping their feet about it because they are bringing their values into the mix instead of doing things the way the Federation does it. They see tribes and clans as important bits of data worth caring about and making decisions with, and when they use that as part of their way of doing things, someone's bound to get upset by it - probably because they expected (rightfully so) that it would not be done the way it's done in the Republic, in the Federation.
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Hmmmm.
I ... actually don't quite think so, Morwen. It's been noted, to throw out an example, that one of the less politically acceptable observations you can make in the Federation is that the Caldari, as a race, are still members-- not because the Caldari State is a breakaway rebel group, but because there are a pile of Caldari-majority planets that didn't rebel.
It's not necessarily racialist or racist per se, but it whiffs of the same kinds of resentment. So do the U-NATs as a movement.
What you're saying is probably quite true of most educated and/or astropolitan Federal citizens (which would include most capsuleers and probably their parents, possibly going back a ways), but not all. As level of education drops off (and you get closer to the bottom of a gravity well-- I gather most Federal colonies are set up by one of its members, not the Federation as a whole), prejudice probably becomes more of a "thing." It's hard to avoid; after all, what dispels it is usually education, regular personal contact, or, ideally, both.
Isolation and poor education tend to lead to backward attitudes.
Probably, you're right insofar as the Federation isn't racist itself. It does, however, inevitably contain piles of racists, and these need not have originated abroad.
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I'm talking about the Federation as an institution primarily, not racist members of its populace.
Institutionally, it does not condone or endorse racism, because race is considered irrelevant at that level. You're a Federal citizen, your bloodline/race shouldn't be more than a minor footnote for census purposes at most. That kind of thing. As far as paperwork goes. Obviously this is not the case for people seeking office, who will of course stir shit whenever and wherever they get the opportunity.
Are there racist shitbags all over among the citizenry? Sure, it's like that in every empire. But the Federation, as an institituion, is not racist, from what I see. What happens is groups that come to the Federation and become citizens are bringing excess baggage in terms of beliefs and ways of doing things that then clash with the system like that.
The Federation, as an institution, doesn't see any difference between a Sebiestor and a Vherokior. As far as it is concerned, they're both "Federation citizens of Matari descent/origin". As long as they're meeting whatever obligations they have (taxes, etc.), they're entirely below the radar. Issues only arise when, to continue with the example, Minmatar citizens of the Federation start applying clan and tribe as a way of discrimination against their own people, just as they might have done back in the Republic where it would not only be acceptable, but encouraged and expected by society.
In the Republic that kind of shit is totally a fact of life. In the Federation, it's not supposed to be, and on average I expect that it isn't.
To be fair, I read that whole arc (the employment one) as being a bit of a "this is an example of the bad things that can result from affirmative action legislation" more than anything else, but that's another bucket of worms I'm a little hesitant to get into since It Could Offend.
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I'm talking about the Federation as an institution primarily, not racist members of its populace.
Institutionally, it does not condone or endorse racism, because race is considered irrelevant at that level. You're a Federal citizen, your bloodline/race shouldn't be more than a minor footnote for census purposes at most. That kind of thing. As far as paperwork goes. Obviously this is not the case for people seeking office, who will of course stir shit whenever and wherever they get the opportunity.
Are there racist shitbags all over among the citizenry? Sure, it's like that in every empire. But the Federation, as an institituion, is not racist, from what I see. What happens is groups that come to the Federation and become citizens are bringing excess baggage in terms of beliefs and ways of doing things that then clash with the system like that.
The Federation, as an institution, doesn't see any difference between a Sebiestor and a Vherokior. As far as it is concerned, they're both "Federation citizens of Matari descent/origin". As long as they're meeting whatever obligations they have (taxes, etc.), they're entirely below the radar. Issues only arise when, to continue with the example, Minmatar citizens of the Federation start applying clan and tribe as a way of discrimination against their own people, just as they might have done back in the Republic where it would not only be acceptable, but encouraged and expected by society.
In the Republic that kind of shit is totally a fact of life. In the Federation, it's not supposed to be, and on average I expect that it isn't.
To be fair, I read that whole arc (the employment one) as being a bit of a "this is an example of the bad things that can result from affirmative action legislation" more than anything else, but that's another bucket of worms I'm a little hesitant to get into since It Could Offend.
Oh, I don't think there's any question that there is formal equality of the races in the Federation. There may even be in the Republic. The State insists that its restrictions are all cultural, not racial; a Caldari may be of any race (so long as they don't mind getting married only to similar-looking, IE of-the-same-ethnic-background people). So, formal racial equality there, too. Even the Amarr claim to have formal equality on account of having one great house (I forget which) that isn't 100% True Amarr.
The issue to my mind is that there's a lot of light visible between formal and actual equality. IRL, formal equality is the law of the land all over the planet, but actual equality is quite a bit more rare. It might even be one of those ideals that has become a reality nowhere at all.
Is the Federation formally racist? Of course not. Neither is almost anyone else (if only to avoid unflattering comparisons and accusations of a society based on pseudoscience).
However, does race have major and sometimes detrimental informal effects, even in the Federation? Of course.
If we're in agreement on that, we're likely just arguing two sides of one coin.
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At this point, yeah, probably.
I would disagree about formal equity in the other empires, though. The Republic clearly doesn't, otherwise we wouldn't have seen the employment issue come up. The Amarr practice a 'benevolent' (in intent) form of institutionalized racism enforced by their religion.
I think the Caldari are more up in the air in this regard, though, and could go either way.