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[Ulphus]

if you attempt to say anything that isn't exactly what is said in the evelopedia, people will nit pick it.

e.g. someone says things about how the Udorians were unrighteous.
someone else says "Except that's not what happened" and then uses the evelopedia to Prove You Wrong.

Even when it is unlikely that their character would know any of it.

Which is part of why I don't read about anything that isn't related to the Matari. I don't think it's reasonable for Ulf to know IC about the intricacies of Amarrian history, and the easiest way to achieve that is to not know it OOC :p

It's also one of the reasons I don't like PF that tells you stuff and includes in the fine-print "But nobody knows this". It's completely useless for RP; actually, it's worse than useless when someone tries to use it to win an argument.

[Lyn Farel]

Problem with the Scriptures is of access.

Only TC has it, everyone else has revised editions.

I hate to get RL references here, but kinda like the Bible and the Vatican.

Only those that will not leak the informatiosn about what is written in the original writings that the Bible is based upon will ever have access to them.

Same would go for Scriptures, and anyone that is in the position to dictate dogma on any level would be so deeply indoctrinated that the dogma that they would produce would be completely in line with the old one.

Of course at the moment using any kind of intelligence or logic to construct possible ways of things happening in New Eden is a fools errand, because CCP treats it as a space opera, so anything goes as long as you make it EPIC!!!

Anyway, we players have access to absolutely close to nothing, only a few of the most famous texts. I don't even want to imagine the amount of stuff to write about for CCP if they were to be a little more exhaustive concerning the Scriptures.

[Rodj Blake]

Would just like to note that I've been thinking lots about making Aldy a closet Tetrimon.

Aldy is definitely in the closet, but I'm not so sure it's the one labeled "Tetrimon"...

* Morwen Lagann flees! . . . . . . . . . . \o\

* Aldrith Shutaq chases! . . . . . . . . . /o/

For some reason I had a flashback to watching The Benny Hill Show as a child.
YOU GIT BACK 'ERE!

[Rodj Blake]

if you attempt to say anything that isn't exactly what is said in the evelopedia, people will nit pick it.

e.g. someone says things about how the Udorians were unrighteous.
someone else says "Except that's not what happened" and then uses the evelopedia to Prove You Wrong.

Even when it is unlikely that their character would know any of it.

But then of course, everyone is an Expert on Ancient Amarrian History. Also ancient Caldari culture.

Yep, it's the old player knowledge vs character knowledge bugbear.

A prime example of this in Eve is the Mad Emperor.     His name was stricken from the records and his deeds covered up, but people still talk about him.

[Valadeus]

I get what you're saying Rodj (and it's good to talk to you OOC, since we never get along IC. ), my only thing is what would we know? I mean, if a Capsuleer is motivated enough, given the resources at their disposal, how much could he find out if he dug deep?

The other problem I face is that I don't know the "accepted lore" in-game, at all. I did a pile of research before I made my characters (Raze, Malcolm and now Xane) and based all of their goals and beliefs on what I was able to scrounge up from the PF. I even went to great lengths to try and separate what Raze would have likely known from what I didn't think he could've possibly known and I'm doing the same for Xane.

However, you've seen my interactions on the IGS with Xane already, according to what's being said here, I've basically already crossed that line into "you wouldn't know this" even though I don't have any idea what I would know.

[Creep]

if you attempt to say anything that isn't exactly what is said in the evelopedia, people will nit pick it.

e.g. someone says things about how the Udorians were unrighteous.
someone else says "Except that's not what happened" and then uses the evelopedia to Prove You Wrong.

Even when it is unlikely that their character would know any of it.

But then of course, everyone is an Expert on Ancient Amarrian History. Also ancient Caldari culture.

Yep, it's the old player knowledge vs character knowledge bugbear.

A prime example of this in Eve is the Mad Emperor.     His name was stricken from the records and his deeds covered up, but people still talk about him.

Better example: The Enheduanni or whatever their name is.
Trying to erase someone from history (especially an Emperor who was responsible for major social upheaval) is going to be very tricky, and will probably end up causing the Streissand effect to at least some degree. Furthermore, historians love digging up ancient scandals hundreds of years after the fact (as they're busily doing today with many previously revered figures who are now slowly being revealed as massive douchenozzels), and spreading it in popular culture (Tesla vs Edison), so I feel a lot of this is far more justified than "Oh and we also know about the super secret Jove Enemy that cannot be fought and eludes even their spies, yus yus".

[Silas Vitalia]

Valadeus, you could possibly approach this from a 'heretica' point of view; it is entirely likely that religious outcasts and quasi heretical cults would take great care to maintain and pass-down 'alternative' versions of Imperial history.

It's sort of the angle I approach it from, for example the Sabiks are likely to have huge libraries of 'their' version of Imperial history, with perhaps some surviving and highly prized texts along the way.  This information would of course be -highly- subjective but as a rule you can imagine anything the Theology Council wanted to erase, the Tetrimons, etc would take great pain to preserve.

[lallara zhuul]

One of the problems is that without serious metagaming capsuleers do not have vast resources at their disposal.

They have very limited resources at their disposal, all their wealth is connected to CONCORD and its regulations, outside that they have pretty much nothing. So would they be able to use wealth that is churned out by CONCORD that is not actually based on any real resource to pay for services rendered in areas that CONCORD does not mean anything?

I doubt it, because if that would be the case, then CONCORD would have the same access because it generates the currency.

If a capsuleer can use ISK to buy anything outside the economy that we as the players have access to then it would mean that CONCORD would be able to do the same.
 
CONCORD bought the Empires, what a great ending to New Eden.

[Valadeus]

Lallara,

I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that Capsuleers do have a great deal of wealth and freedom. CONCORD polices their activities and regulates what they can do, not the empires, but a Capsuleer has wealth and resources well above that of your average planetside dweller. I mean, it could be possible that the "wealth" is subjective and not useful planetside, but I never read it that way, it always seems to suggest that if a Capsuleer goes planetside, they're EXTREMELY wealthy.

[Silas Vitalia]

One of the problems is that without serious metagaming capsuleers do not have vast resources at their disposal.

They have very limited resources at their disposal, all their wealth is connected to CONCORD and its regulations, outside that they have pretty much nothing. So would they be able to use wealth that is churned out by CONCORD that is not actually based on any real resource to pay for services rendered in areas that CONCORD does not mean anything?

I doubt it, because if that would be the case, then CONCORD would have the same access because it generates the currency.

If a capsuleer can use ISK to buy anything outside the economy that we as the players have access to then it would mean that CONCORD would be able to do the same.
 
CONCORD bought the Empires, what a great ending to New Eden.

Our player capsuleers are extremely wealthy and use their isk to influence baseliners all the time.  Just because it's not covered in the gameplay doesn't mean it's not allowed.

[lallara zhuul]

I seem to be going on about this like a bad record, don't I?

It is just that all the economies of the Empires are limited in resources and currency, because any kind of system where the resources and currency are not connected is doomed to do the boom/bust thing that our economies have been going through for the past hundred years or so.

Then there is the economy that the CONCORD lords over, the space economy. That is completely limitless in all ways imaginable. There is limitless resources and there is certainly limitless amounts of currency.

To not have them insulated from each other would be very, very, very stupid from the Empires that founded CONCORD.

Small history flashback of EVE.

In the beginning, there was no ISK (or very little of it.)

You could only get it from agents (missionwhoring), ratting (npcfarming) or trading with the npcs.

Whatever you did, the total amount of ISK in the world got bigger.

Now you can make a billion running level fives solo in an hour.

To let that kind of income making be connected in any way to a planetside economy would be ludicrous.

The spacebound economy would, in time, own the planetside economy.

If even one special snowflake of a capsuleer would have the capacity to do that, that capsuleer slowly but surely (because he/she/it is immortal) would own all the Empires.

New Eden is insidious, the Empires are not stupid, manipulation is everywhere.

Sure as hell the capsuleers feel that they are in the lap of luxury and Special, because treating them like that profits the Empires that they work for. But giving them real wealth and the power that goes with it, that would be more than stupid of the Empires that created them.

Gilded cages and all that.

How many times have you heard of a CIA agent that has toppled the American government?

Zero.

How many times in the world of New Eden would the Empires create weapons that would be capable of destroying themselves?

Zero.

Unless of course it would be an Epic story, so at least once.

Then the story would need to start jumping the shark by creating immortal foot soldiers after creating immortal space captains.

Wait, what?

[Silas Vitalia]

i think suspension of a fair amount of disbelief is part of the core of enjoying any fiction world. If you start picking the loose threads apart, the whole thing collapses, quickly.

Eve has many loose threads that we shouldn't bother with, starting with independent capsuleers, nearly all of the technology used, the backstory, the economy, etc.

I just don't think there are nearly as many 'hard lines' between capsuleers and the rest of the cluster as you, that's all.

The chronicle that was debated a while back when PI launched, about the capsuleer threatening and intimidating a planetary governor comes to mind. We are in their world, and they are in ours.

 

 

[Aldrith Shutaq]

Actually, I think Lallara's view makes a lot of sense. ISK to local currency converstion would probably be an extremely wonky processes, and I'd expect it to be extremely difficult to work out. A capsuleer can convert his capsuleer resources into things more relevant to baseliners, but at a limited rate. You can't just take 100 mil, walk up to the cash machine and demand ten trillion of the local's money. However, it also not impossible to turn 100 mil ISK into invesments that influence baseline society, and slowly turn into the local currency. A capsuleer wanting influence beyond the pod will need to plant the seeds for it, or have already had them before becoming a capsuleer.

[lallara zhuul]

The problem with that, at the moment, is the fact that when a person comes a capsuleer, legally he dies.

They transfer the mind into a body and kill the old one.

Which in most societies means that the capsuleer has no inheritance or property, unless they had a business that was transferred to that new persona, which would probably have all kinds of nasty taxes involved by letting something be inherited by someone that is not real family.

[Valadeus]

I imagine the legality surrounding a Capsuleer's "inheritance" and "business" would vary from empire to empire. For example, we know that the Amarr are not incredibly fond of Capsuleers and would be quick to remove their planetside influence and assets, which they effectively did through the doctrine of "Godflesh."

But I imagine the Caldari and Gallente (at least) are far more favorable to Capsuleers. The former because of the business power they wield and represent, a Capsuleer generates a lot of revenue through purchasing and even producing ship modules for Caldari business. The latter because of "freedom" and "liberty" etcetera, which the Capsuleer represents in spades.

I agree that the monetary exchange would cumbersome, at best, but it remains that everything indicates Capsuleers are very, very wealthy planetside. Obviously that wouldn't mean they could just exit the pod and drop cash for everything, but it would mean they could use their space-side wealth to purchase and/or provide for things planetside. It's also not hard to imagine that currency exchange exists, but the process probably isn't instant.