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General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Louella Dougans on 14 Aug 2014, 11:04
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http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/size-matters-introducing-burner-missions/
pirate faction pseudo-capsuleer frigates. u wot m8 ?
what's everyone's thought on this ?
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The agent tells you exactly how to fit against a lone target, with huge rewards.
Ok then.
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The agent tells you exactly how to fit against a lone target, with huge rewards.
Ok then.
It's a trap ?
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It looks like a good barely hidden disguise to present basic pvp configurations to pve players and put them in similar tactical situations, but against NPCs.
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As a frigate pilot, I'm quite excited by these!
Almost sounds like NPC training for real frigate combat against other players, which I wholly welcome!
It'll also give me a nice income running these in lowsec... maybe I can stop selling drugs for a living.... hehehe, naaahhh!
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This sounds great honeatly
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It'll be an interesting way to stress test frigate fits.
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It looks like a good barely hidden disguise to present basic pvp configurations to pve players and put them in similar tactical situations, but against NPCs.
+1
if the above paves the way to re-design and re-imagine PvE missions so they resemble more a PvP enviroment i'm sold....otherwise worried they will get farmed and provide an unbalanced source of ISK
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It looks like a good barely hidden disguise to present basic pvp configurations to pve players and put them in similar tactical situations, but against NPCs.
+1
if the above paves the way to re-design and re-imagine PvE missions so they resemble more a PvP enviroment i'm sold....otherwise worried they will get farmed and provide an unbalanced source of ISK
This. Also echoing the +1 to Lyn.
As for personal thoughts: "Ava Starfire Mission Generator" about sums it up.
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As for personal thoughts: "Ava Starfire Mission Generator" about sums it up.
QFT
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On second thought, "Ava Starfire Simulator" seems even more accurate. >_>
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This looks mighty interesting and a good chance to test out Breacher fits before using them against actual PVPers.
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Oh, fucking SWEET. :-) This makes me happy.
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Definitely game to try these out as a PvE option in lowsec, and on paper they seem preferrable to what's available to me now.
Something new to warrior around in pyfa with.
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I like them, and would do them, but the lack of having a "Burner missions only" option in its initial phases makes me sad, because I'd rather do frigate PvE as opposed to having to shoot hundreds of NPC in a Battleship.
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I like them, and would do them, but the lack of having a "Burner missions only" option in its initial phases makes me sad, because I'd rather do frigate PvE as opposed to having to shoot hundreds of NPC in a Battleship.
I think it's more likely that we'll see an increase in the frequency with which the missions are offered rather than Burner-only agents. Since declining them causes no timer or anything, it seems like the right next step if there's a general perception they aren't showing up frequently enough.
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I'm of mixed mind on this. I definitely approve of the idea, but as Graelyn said the whole "agent tells you exactly how to win" thing makes me unsure. Will their stats be high enough that following the agent's advice takes what would be a hopeless situation and makes it merely difficult? Will CCP be willing to flip their stats around some when people inevitably figure out super-optimized fits to make easy kills of each NPC? What about certain ships at current (Worm, Ishkur, Enyo, Hawk) which are so good they might conceivably be able to handle any of the NPCs with barely any refitting?
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I like them, and would do them, but the lack of having a "Burner missions only" option in its initial phases makes me sad, because I'd rather do frigate PvE as opposed to having to shoot hundreds of NPC in a Battleship.
I was thinking the same, especially with regards to the option of doing level 4 mission in 0.0 and low sec. But this idea can be buried with now my unwillingness to ever do regular lvl 4 missions again. Otherwise: It looks interesting, but I wonder what CCP will do to grant some kind of unpredictability, if there will be EVE survival descriptions and fittings that always work it will be as dull as always having to bring a friend. We'll see.
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They should really push the concept for missions done in multi. The kind you HAVE TO get a buddy or several buddies to do. With pve gang warfare and all, vs several of those things.
As for personal thoughts: "Ava Starfire Mission Generator" about sums it up.
QFT
:lol:
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I like them, and would do them, but the lack of having a "Burner missions only" option in its initial phases makes me sad, because I'd rather do frigate PvE as opposed to having to shoot hundreds of NPC in a Battleship.
I think it's more likely that we'll see an increase in the frequency with which the missions are offered rather than Burner-only agents. Since declining them causes no timer or anything, it seems like the right next step if there's a general perception they aren't showing up frequently enough.
Well, the devblog says they're in the level 4 mission pool and not separate. If you don't want to do "normal" level 4 missions but only the new burner ones that means having to decline missions until you get one if you don't want standing losses. Which means waiting every four hours or having to visit multiple agents to get one.
That might be working as intended I suppose on CCP's end.
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On second thought, "Ava Starfire Simulator" seems even more accurate. >_>
It would be most accurate if the complex only allows Wolves in.
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Well, the devblog says they're in the level 4 mission pool and not separate. If you don't want to do "normal" level 4 missions but only the new burner ones that means having to decline missions until you get one if you don't want standing losses. Which means waiting every four hours or having to visit multiple agents to get one.
That might be working as intended I suppose on CCP's end.
That could help break up mission hubs a bit. It would also encourage dedicated 'burner' mission pilots to pretty much roam around with their frigates looking for viable "targets." I kind of like the idea to be honest. I think it will make low and null missions interesting.
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Also, might it encourage people to get together in groups of 2-4 and pull missions together, eat through them together as a group, and then go back to spreading out to ping agents? Kind of like how the old FW mission farm used to go - a bunch of people cycle through a ton of agents looking for good missions, and when they've exhausted all the reasonable agents they go out and run them together and dump all at once.
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The very concept of "good" and "bad" missions is... :psyccp:
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I hope they give the "Burner" NPC's a cap limit.
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I'm of mixed mind on this. I definitely approve of the idea, but as Graelyn said the whole "agent tells you exactly how to win" thing makes me unsure. Will their stats be high enough that following the agent's advice takes what would be a hopeless situation and makes it merely difficult? Will CCP be willing to flip their stats around some when people inevitably figure out super-optimized fits to make easy kills of each NPC? What about certain ships at current (Worm, Ishkur, Enyo, Hawk) which are so good they might conceivably be able to handle any of the NPCs with barely any refitting?
This is something I can agree with. Conceptually I want to like it as a step in the right direction, but when I see CCP do things like this, I look back at Epic Mission Arcs and at Cosmos, and I want to like those things too. Hypothetically all mission running could be converted into epic arcs. Or all Cosmos content. You could also have all burner missions eventually. Or it could be that CCP adds in these few missions as a token gesture and doesn't touch mission running as it exists right now for another three years.
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I hope they give the "Burner" NPC's a cap limit.
they won't at first, maybe in the future, if they manage to work out how to design it that way.
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Having now run a few of these, burner missions are living up their name. The NPCs "burn" pretty fucking fast. The only way I managed to kill the afterburning 3.2km/s succubus was a snaked Daredevil with an overheated Shadow Serp web. And even then he tanked like a bitch.
(http://i.imgur.com/ODlNFKw.png?1)
Currently, these may be far harder than their reward justifies. Excellent PVP practice though. Before finally succeeding with the Daredevil I failed in a Worm, a Wolf and a Cruor. The Worm and Cruor were able to escape by sacrificing drones, but I eventually ended up ejecting from the wolf as I couldn't even get close to catching him.
A* for PVP practice, low C for being monetarily worthwhile.
Editing to add:
Fucking lol.
Trying to fight the 3.8km/s light missile worm in a Dramiel. Check out those time stamps.
(http://i.imgur.com/pTAkJT1.png?1)
30 seconds from landing to dead. Most of those seconds spent burning into range. From getting into to range to exploding, 6 seconds. Out goddamn standing.
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Nobody will ever do those if they are hard and bring no money.
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I was also thinking it would be nice to be able to do them without an expensive fit or hull.
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Some Fozzie posts after my feedback. He confirms that you should be able to do the majority of these in a t2 fit t2 ship. It'll be hard though.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4936958#post4936958
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the blood raider one has something like a 350 dps tank, which you cannot neut out. (supposedly will be iterated on in a future expansion).
It is also immune to tracking disruption.
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While I think it's appropriate for a solo PvP training mission to be difficult, and for significant investment to be made for a chance at small deadspace/faction module drops, this may be a situation where 'risk versus reward' turns around to bite me on the ass. I don't fly anything worth more than 40M, and if they remain in their current state as Kala describes them (ostensibly for well-off vets who are already skilled at solo frig fights), burner missions will likely be chalked up as another piece of EVE I will not experience.
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the blood raider one, you defeat with a webby kitey thing that does > 350 dps.
Anything else won't work. Oh look, pve with an optimal solution, once solution found, no need to change.
well, that didn't take long.
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While I think it's appropriate for a solo PvP training mission to be difficult, and for significant investment to be made for a chance at small deadspace/faction module drops, this may be a situation where 'risk versus reward' turns around to bite me on the ass. I don't fly anything worth more than 40M, and if they remain in their current state as Kala describes them (ostensibly for well-off vets who are already skilled at solo frig fights), burner missions will likely be chalked up as another piece of EVE I will not experience.
am i mistaken in thinking you cannot run these lvl4s with a friend?
i was hoping these would server well to training bait_with_tackle+dps duo frigs...and eventually go out for PvP
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Nothing I've seen says you can't work in groups. It may actually be considerably easier to do so.
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Confirming I've never missioned with another player. Point well taken, though: as a small gang training tool this makes more sense to me.
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They do look rather fun but definitely a tad dangerous
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It rather does seem like CCP wants you to do them in groups, as otherwise some of them (particularly the blood one, as mentioned) require some gimped processes to get down.
Unfortunately, convincing players to give up the old "missions should be soloable, grindable content" mentality is exceedingly difficult; we've already seen people trending towards thinking up elaborate refitting schemes and processes to handle them rather than just dragging along buddies. Some of this might be a test-server-vs-live-server thing, but it's not reassuring.
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It rather does seem like CCP wants you to do them in groups, as otherwise some of them (particularly the blood one, as mentioned) require some gimped processes to get down.
Unfortunately, convincing players to give up the old "missions should be soloable, grindable content" mentality is exceedingly difficult; we've already seen people trending towards thinking up elaborate refitting schemes and processes to handle them rather than just dragging along buddies. Some of this might be a test-server-vs-live-server thing, but it's not reassuring.
In my opinion, they are expecting you to tailor fits and tactics for specific burner missions.
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Oh, there's no doubt about that. I think you're underestimating the degree of complexity people are going to instead of just teaming up, though.
For instance, one of the more popular ways to handle the blood one is to fly in a Worm with a purely passive shield regen fit - no weapons or offensive modules to speak of - and drop a mobile depot, then refit for drone DPS until he's worn your tank down and then refit back to passive regen when your tank has been whittled down a bit. Neither of these fits are optimal for PvP, which is what CCP is apparently trying to nudge people towards with these missions.
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CCP's (actually, Fozzie specifically springs to mind) been talking about making everything 'social' and I really don't think you can force people to be social. I think the game is doing a pretty good job saying one ought to try to be social for better game experience, but entirely stamping out single player play is going to see crazy fits like Esna pointed out. It'll be interesting to watch, but kind of a pain when you could just let people grind if they want to.
I like the idea of teaching newer players how to fit, and I think going into it in gangs could ruin that premise; you don't have to be fit as well when you have enough guys to steamroll it (which is going to happen if it's hard). I want to say I like this idea, but I feel like it might not have the intended effect when released to players. Good try though - that's one of the hardest things is getting used to fitting and refitting. It was a lot harder when I was solo, and doing missions. There was a lot of carefully matching similar modules to suggestions and sometimes not entirely understanding it.
Ironically, having ships tossed in front of me and being asked, "Hey kid, can you fly this?" actually has taught me a lot more about the modules themselves than carefully making ships 'by hand' for missions.
So... I hope this helps newbros, but it might not. ?!
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http://i.gyazo.com/86f8dbd149ac58c12cb85b2f4688c3c3.png (http://i.gyazo.com/86f8dbd149ac58c12cb85b2f4688c3c3.png)
Can't do solo icly. :cry:
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I'll give people a tip.
Frigates can fit hardeners.
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CCP Fozzie @CCP_Fozzie
On day one, 207 Burner NPCs died, but they killed 1563 capsuleer ships. The machines are winning. #tweetfleet #eveonline #iskwar
EVE Online @EveOnline
You are getting better! Only 6.2 players lost per burner NPC destroyed yesterday as opposed to 7.55 on Tuesday. #eveonline #tweetfleet
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Burners care not for your demigod ways.
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It rather does seem like CCP wants you to do them in groups, as otherwise some of them (particularly the blood one, as mentioned) require some gimped processes to get down.
Unfortunately, convincing players to give up the old "missions should be soloable, grindable content" mentality is exceedingly difficult; we've already seen people trending towards thinking up elaborate refitting schemes and processes to handle them rather than just dragging along buddies. Some of this might be a test-server-vs-live-server thing, but it's not reassuring.
just to mention, most FW missions were done with 3 guys, 1 inty + 2 bombers.....that meant you could pick up like 6-8 missions (each pilot choosing 2) and then do a quick run across the entire region finishing each mission in 5-6 mins tops....
Albeit FW were a rare mixture of "group oriented" stuff mixed with clasicall "NPC horde" mentality ....it actually worked pretty well to force people to play the odds differently.
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So, if I understand correctly, in terms of lore, Burners are actually better than capsuleers ? We are outdated !
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So, if I understand correctly, in terms of lore, Burners are actually better than capsuleers ? We are outdated !
Or they seriously cheese it out and all have HG implants and Loki links.
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I believe the burner NPC could be made better if they also spoke in local. Such as:
Bring two or more people to fight it: "lol noob blobbers"
When it or you die: "GF"
If it loses to you: "Lame lost due to lag" and/or "Fuck OGB"
Also for the ones done in lowsec there needs to be a random chance the Burner frig lights a cyno and hotdrops you with NPC Supercaps.
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As for personal thoughts: "Ava Starfire Mission Generator" about sums it up.
QFT
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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On second thought, "Ava Starfire Simulator" seems even more accurate. >_>
It would be most accurate if the complex only allows Wolves in.
I love you guys!
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Serious Reply Time:
I'm going to work on doing these missions today. I think I can do some of them in my Jag, and the others in the Wolf. I'll talk about what I do and how I do it when I get those things figured out! It feels wrong to fit hardeners to my frigates, but... any port in a storm. If i can manage in bone-stock pvp fits (from what I'm hearing, I likely cannot) I will say so. Otherwise... lemme lose some AFs and see what I can learn!
Ava
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Best of luck, I look forwards to hearing how you and others are doing. These missions have me kind of interested, but the fact they are merged with level 4's is annoying. Not really got the patience to grind 4's till I get a burner.
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I lways did L4's with a partner or a small fleet. at that point casual enough to RP the mission.
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I lways did L4's with a partner or a small fleet. at that point casual enough to RP the mission.
IC fleet chat best fleet chat.
Yes, Inara, I'm even including fleet chat with you and Chaos participating in that statement.
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I tried the Angel burner mission not too long ago with the help of Marcus. I lost two Jaguars and he ended up losing a Hawk and a Griffon. On one hand I found the concept of working to win a fight a nice change in a pve mission; on the other hand I am going to be passing on these missions for the time being: I do not have pockets to toss out t2 frigates with some bling modules for a chance at getting a shiny module. I could try grouping, but my flying ground seems to be nowhere near where others fly (and by that I mean people I know and trust).
Ironic...in WoW, I would have no problem joining a random group for running instances, yet unless I know the person in EVE, I won't fleet with random people.
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Ironic...in WoW, I would have no problem joining a random group for running instances, yet unless I know the person in EVE, I won't fleet with random people.
Because this game's taglines and dominant player attitude discourages concepts such as trust and cooperation with strangers.
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There is exactly zero consequence to failure in WoW. In Eve, the consequences for failure can be disastrous.
Trust in strangers is not a good thing here.
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Throw me in with the group that is kind of 'meh' about them being mixed in with other L4's.
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Would've made a lot more sense to make them into 10/10 complexes. More people do complexes as groups and 10/10 requires all fleet members entering having leadership five. Also when you get the Anomic, your agent literally tells you to kill allies and says "I don't know why". At least with a complex your reason is you just so happened to find them.
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There is exactly zero consequence to failure in WoW. In Eve, the consequences for failure can be disastrous.
Trust in strangers is not a good thing here.
Not to mention in EVE the stranger who fleet with you can easily shoot you to pieces and likely get away with it. In WoW the guy in your instance can't quite stab you to death in the instance directly. He will have to be creative with his griefing. Then there's that thing about everybody else in the party opening a petition to get that guy banned after the griefing.
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Would've made a lot more sense to make them into 10/10 complexes. More people do complexes as groups and 10/10 requires all fleet members entering having leadership five. Also when you get the Anomic, your agent literally tells you to kill allies and says "I don't know why". At least with a complex your reason is you just so happened to find them.
For reference (http://i.gyazo.com/0868d6c6a9b70a910499894296a2b60d.png).
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did you lose faction/corp standing with the Blood Raiders for shooting that npc ?
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did you lose faction/corp standing with the Blood Raiders for shooting that npc ?
I didn't shoot it. But I assume I would. Next time I get the BRC Anomic I will find out, if anyone hasn't already. My standings are low (9.6) because I failed some other missions.
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In case anyone missed it, upcoming Burner missions will include NPCs who "bring their own logistics" - I'll be curious to see how accurate CCP gets this; i.e., will you be capable of neuting or outranging the logis as well as more directly countering them? Will the logis repair each other?
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In case anyone missed it, upcoming Burner missions will include NPCs who "bring their own logistics" - I'll be curious to see how accurate CCP gets this; i.e., will you be capable of neuting or outranging the logis as well as more directly countering them? Will the logis repair each other?
On second thought, "Ava Starfire Simulator" seems even more accurate. >_>
Fucking. Nailed. It.
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Would've made a lot more sense to make them into 10/10 complexes. More people do complexes as groups and 10/10 requires all fleet members entering having leadership five. Also when you get the Anomic, your agent literally tells you to kill allies and says "I don't know why". At least with a complex your reason is you just so happened to find them.
For reference (http://i.gyazo.com/0868d6c6a9b70a910499894296a2b60d.png).
Somewhat off-topic:
The phrasing is a bit confusing but the agent knows why they want you to kill her - she went 'rogue' and that sort of thing is frowned on apparently. The 'I don't know why' part refers to the agent's understanding of the target's reasons for going AWOL.
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From the devblog (http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/some-npcs-just-want-to-watch-the-world-burn/):
All in all, 19962 player ships had been destroyed by Burners as of September 14th, worth a total of 870 billion ISK.
Some other interesting statistics there, anyway.
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Sansha Burner completed in the following fit, with EMP; time, about 4 minutes 30 seconds (Long, grinding fight) it orbits at 15k, but thankfully, the DPS taken due to wolf resists is very manageable. I only used 3 cap boosters for the whole fight.
[Wolf, Wolf]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Thermic Plating II
Small Armor Repairer II
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I
'Orion' Tracking CPU I
200mm AutoCannon II
200mm AutoCannon II
200mm AutoCannon II
200mm AutoCannon II
Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I
Small Projectile Ambit Extension I
Nanite Repair Paste x36
Republic Fleet EMP S x858
Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S x480
True Sanshas Infrared S x1
Navy Cap Booster 400 x9
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The twin logi/AF burners are ridiculously simple. Fit up a cheap Kestrel with meta 4 light missile launchers, MWD, twin racial ECM jammers and two T2 BCUs and a T2 nano in the lows. Orbit the AF (they're all short range weapon platforms) at 25-30km as you jam one logi and kill the other (they rep each other) then drop the other logi and close to 20km as you pick apart the AF.
They're not even comparable to the faction frigate missions in terms of difficulty.