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Author Topic: Tritanium and Atmospheric Capable Spacecraft  (Read 3413 times)

Katrina Oniseki

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Tritanium and Atmospheric Capable Spacecraft
« on: 01 Jul 2011, 19:58 »

Tritanium.
"The main buildingblock in space structures. A very hard, yet bendable metal. Cannot be used in human habitats due to its instability at atmospheric temperatures."

I understand that steel does not share the drawbacks of iron, so it would stand to reason that a tritanium alloy does not share the drawbacks of pure tritanium. Even so, I have not seen PF examples of this in action. It is mentioned in the description of certain planetary industry structures that for improved structural strength they are built with tritanium. However, the interior is kept at a constant cold vacuum.

By that information, I assume pure or near pure tritanium is used directly in construction, even on planets, rather than a more stable alloy (that may not even exist).

So this brings me to wonder if this might explain our inability to enter platetary atmospheres. Disregard the submarine physics. We of course aren't flying aerodynamic ships anyways, so sustained flight would not be an option. Still... would our ships be far less capable of surviving re-entry than other craft like the Space Shuttle or something from other sci-fi? Are ships designed for aerospace flight built with something else?

Why do we see no examples of an atmosphericly stable tritanium alloy? Are there any?
« Last Edit: 01 Jul 2011, 20:04 by Katrina Oniseki »
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Raze Valadeus

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Re: Tritanium and Atmospheric Capable Spacecraft
« Reply #1 on: 02 Jul 2011, 04:15 »

Well, scientifically speaking - in order for a stable alloy to exist, the two materials would need to have a relatively similar melting/freezing point, plus a molecular structure that could bond together stably. I am pretty sure Tritanium is unique in its melting/freezing point, which might also make it near impossible to combine with another mineral with any level of stability.

It would also seem logical that this is indeed why you don't see atmospheric reentry with our ships.
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Seriphyn

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Re: Tritanium and Atmospheric Capable Spacecraft
« Reply #2 on: 02 Jul 2011, 07:04 »

My starships seem to survive quite well in the atmospheric temperature of a station hangar...not sure how much that line in the item's desc applies anymore.
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Kybernetes Moros

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Re: Tritanium and Atmospheric Capable Spacecraft
« Reply #3 on: 02 Jul 2011, 07:57 »

Ignoring the very, very messy tritanium affair, there are a few more pressing reasons why capsuleer ships don't go down to planetary surfaces, I think; the less sturdy ones would very possibly end up not surviving re-entry at all, and for the bigger ones, what do you do with a kilometre of battleship designed to spend its entire working life in space?

Probably more pressing again is that it would be intensely difficult to get these things back out of a planet's gravity well in any reasonable time; the speeds seen in space are without any force acting against the ship bar a handwavey 'spacetime drag' or somesuch caused by the warp core intended to explain away that they have a terminal velocity. On a planet, though, you've not only got to get far enough away for the gravitational field to become much weaker, but also contest with said gravitational field while doing so; without running any numbers myself, eyeballing it looks like a good chunk of ships would be pretty much stuck there once they entered a planet's atmosphere (and on top of that you've got if they could even attempt a landing that didn't amount to faceplanting the ground; they're hardly aerodynamic).

Then, I guess, there's that any Amarr ship or any ship with hybrid antimatter charges would likely have enough antimatter to wipe out a fair chunk of the planet, even ignoring the more conventional weapons a ship has. In short, I guess, there are bigger issues than tritanium being an awkwardly designed metal that doesn't quite fit into EVE neatly. :P
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Tritanium and Atmospheric Capable Spacecraft
« Reply #4 on: 02 Jul 2011, 23:54 »

Giving a little background to the messy tritanium affair, if you haven't already seen it take a look at the thread on Hangars and vacuums.
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Kemekk

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Re: Tritanium and Atmospheric Capable Spacecraft
« Reply #5 on: 03 Jul 2011, 02:28 »

1. Ignoring the very, very messy tritanium affair, there are a few more pressing reasons why capsuleer ships don't go down to planetary surfaces, I think; the less sturdy ones would very possibly end up not surviving re-entry at all, and for the bigger ones, what do you do with a kilometre of battleship designed to spend its entire working life in space?

2. Probably more pressing again is that it would be intensely difficult to get these things back out of a planet's gravity well in any reasonable time; the speeds seen in space are without any force acting against the ship bar a handwavey 'spacetime drag' or somesuch caused by the warp core intended to explain away that they have a terminal velocity. On a planet, though, you've not only got to get far enough away for the gravitational field to become much weaker, but also contest with said gravitational field while doing so; without running any numbers myself, eyeballing it looks like a good chunk of ships would be pretty much stuck there once they entered a planet's atmosphere (and on top of that you've got if they could even attempt a landing that didn't amount to faceplanting the ground; they're hardly aerodynamic).

3. Then, I guess, there's that any Amarr ship or any ship with hybrid antimatter charges would likely have enough antimatter to wipe out a fair chunk of the planet, even ignoring the more conventional weapons a ship has. In short, I guess, there are bigger issues than tritanium being an awkwardly designed metal that doesn't quite fit into EVE neatly. :P

1. Most of the Minmatar ships don't look sturdy enough to survive a re-entry, however Caldari, Gallente, and Amarr ships all seem to have stable enough hull shapes, and possibly have thermal protection plates similar to a NASA space shuttle. (Though we could assume that all ships have that based on the ingame armor resists.) As for the larger ships, they definitely would not be able to land unless there were entire sections of planets that acted as giant parking lots, though I think anything up to a destroyer would be able to land on a planetary surface relatively easily, assuming there is a sort of "anti-grav landing dock" somewhere on the planet.

2. I don't know if it would really be that difficult, judging by how launch vehicles go into orbit on Earth. To quote wiki: "The horizontal speed necessary to achieve low earth orbit is around 7,800 metres per second (26,000 ft/s)," and assuming that each planet in EVE has slightly different gravity due to the size of the planets, you probably wouldn't need 7800 m/s to launch into orbit. Also with the use of disposable staged rocket systems like what we use on real space craft, it's very possible to reach that speed even with just the use of an MWD because once the first stage rockets got you up to speed, say 2500-5000 m/s, the momentum of that thrust even after they have detached from the hull would apply to the thrust of the MWD for a short while before you could get away from the planet's gravitational pull. Even if the ships aren't aerodynamically designed, we could probably assume that each ship is fitted with some sort of electro-magnetic hovering system (like what is witnessed when the ships are docked in a station) or possibly even a dark energy generator, which is the force that seems to be expanding the universe (essentially: anti-gravity, the 5th fundamental force of the universe). I don't think the weight or friction of smaller ships like frigs and destroyers would have enough impact in an atmosphere for it to be an issue for space entry.

3. I'm not sure if the anti-matter charges in EVE are built to realistic standards, but 1 gram of anti-matter can cause an explosion the size of the Hiroshima atom bomb. Based off what I've seen in EVE, I'd assume the rounds have maybe 1 molecule of anti-matter sprinkled on the tip of the round. Even if you hauled a lot of anti-matter rounds onto the planet, you'd maybe have an explosion the size of a gasoline bomb or an IED.



Also, Amarr ships use tungsten carbide for armor plating which I'd assume covers most of the tritanium-built hull. Assuming that ships have any sort of atmospheric living properties for the crew to operate in, the ships don't break apart in space even with the "atmospherized" parts of the ship potentially coming in contact with these areas. I don't think the tritanium debacle had much thought put into it by CCP, and even if it did I'd assume it isn't relevant with the current technology that players witness in the game. I think most if not all ships would be capable of landing on a planet and heading back into space without any loss of structural integrity.
« Last Edit: 03 Jul 2011, 02:39 by Kemekk »
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Tritanium and Atmospheric Capable Spacecraft
« Reply #6 on: 03 Jul 2011, 03:12 »

PF states that spaceships do not go into atmosphere anyway, am I right ? They use old school dropships for that.
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Horatius Caul

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Re: Tritanium and Atmospheric Capable Spacecraft
« Reply #7 on: 03 Jul 2011, 08:52 »

Tritanium.
"The main buildingblock in space structures. A very hard, yet bendable metal. Cannot be used in human habitats due to its instability at atmospheric temperatures."

I understand that steel does not share the drawbacks of iron, so it would stand to reason that a tritanium alloy does not share the drawbacks of pure tritanium. Even so, I have not seen PF examples of this in action. It is mentioned in the description of certain planetary industry structures that for improved structural strength they are built with tritanium. However, the interior is kept at a constant cold vacuum.

By that information, I assume pure or near pure tritanium is used directly in construction, even on planets, rather than a more stable alloy (that may not even exist).

So this brings me to wonder if this might explain our inability to enter platetary atmospheres. Disregard the submarine physics. We of course aren't flying aerodynamic ships anyways, so sustained flight would not be an option. Still... would our ships be far less capable of surviving re-entry than other craft like the Space Shuttle or something from other sci-fi? Are ships designed for aerospace flight built with something else?

Why do we see no examples of an atmosphericly stable tritanium alloy? Are there any?
A while back I was considering atmospheric/planetary landings with spaceships in EVE, taking some of the more obscure technologies into account.

First of all I completely ignored the Trit issue because it's bloody retarded (lolinternalpressure).

I agree that most EVE spaceships wouldn't be airworthy, mainly because they can't generate enough upward force/lift to keep themselves from tumbling to the ground, or are built in a way that would have engines and air resistance tearing the fuselage to tiny bits or just spinning the ship out of control.

The solution I came up with was tractor beam stations. The Caldari have advanced "graviton" technology, all ships and stations in the game must have some sort of artificial gravity due to linear deck layouts, there are some examples of anti-gravity vehicles in the PF, and the game already has tractor beams that can attract objects. By a slight stretch it's possible that there are also repulsion beams of some sort that could be built around the same technology. These repulsion beams would essentially produce negative gravity, perhaps even capable of negating the pull of a planet.

So, you build a massive dock for a ship on a planet. In the dock, and at emplacements a few miles around it, you mount tractor and repulsion beams. When the ship comes into low orbit, you "catch" it using the tractor and repulsion beams, cycling them in a way that allows you to guide it down. Thanks to the repulsion beams negating the gravity of the planet, you can safely guide the ship down gradually until it's nice and safe in the dock.

Then, when you want to send it away again you just push it out with the repulsion beams again.

Theoretically, a technology like this could scale up to anything like capital ships.

Kybernetes Moros

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Re: Tritanium and Atmospheric Capable Spacecraft
« Reply #8 on: 03 Jul 2011, 09:17 »

1. Most of the Minmatar ships don't look sturdy enough to survive a re-entry, however Caldari, Gallente, and Amarr ships all seem to have stable enough hull shapes, and possibly have thermal protection plates similar to a NASA space shuttle. (Though we could assume that all ships have that based on the ingame armor resists.) As for the larger ships, they definitely would not be able to land unless there were entire sections of planets that acted as giant parking lots, though I think anything up to a destroyer would be able to land on a planetary surface relatively easily, assuming there is a sort of "anti-grav landing dock" somewhere on the planet.

Possibly, yeah; it seems a stretch, though. Last time I was discussing this, we ended up reaching the issue that smaller ships would be alright to land and so on, in theory, but get so damaged by re-entry (if not outright destroyed) that such couldn't happen, whereas the larger ships might be durable enough to survive that, but on account of designs meant for vacuum, end up more or less hurtling into the ground, which is pretty bad for  -- neither can pull it off, but the reasoning for each group is inverted.

Quote
2. I don't know if it would really be that difficult, judging by how launch vehicles go into orbit on Earth. To quote wiki: "The horizontal speed necessary to achieve low earth orbit is around 7,800 metres per second (26,000 ft/s)," and assuming that each planet in EVE has slightly different gravity due to the size of the planets, you probably wouldn't need 7800 m/s to launch into orbit.  Also with the use of disposable staged rocket systems like what we use on real space craft, it's very possible to reach that speed even with just the use of an MWD because once the first stage rockets got you up to speed, say 2500-5000 m/s, the momentum of that thrust even after they have detached from the hull would apply to the thrust of the MWD for a short while before you could get away from the planet's gravitational pull.


I poked at some numbers very briefly, and it looks like it's battleships and the larger cruisers that encounter issues; a Moa, say, would be capable of getting itself off the ground, whereas an Abaddon's main thrusters directed straight down wouldn't lift that thing up. (Both examples being on a planet with acceleration due to gravity 1g, for argument's sake; on a lower gravity world the Abaddon might do fine, and on a higher one the Moa might run into similar problems).


Quote
Even if the ships aren't aerodynamically designed, we could probably assume that each ship is fitted with some sort of electro-magnetic hovering system (like what is witnessed when the ships are docked in a station) or possibly even a dark energy generator, which is the force that seems to be expanding the universe (essentially: anti-gravity, the 5th fundamental force of the universe). I don't think the weight or friction of smaller ships like frigs and destroyers would have enough impact in an atmosphere for it to be an issue for space entry.

ARGHLBLARGRFEERDFNEDKASE. This isn't the right place to debate cosmology, but the physicist in me weeps. >> In short, it's hypothesised to be a highly homogeneous, low-density flavour of energy that doesn't interact with the fundamental forces barring gravity, dreamed up to solve the problem of the universe expanding at an accelerating rate. It has a negative pressure so that it can accelerate expansion, but that's it; it doesn't affect gravitational interaction between other objects. The idea of a generator for it's a little whacked, anyway, what with it only interacting gravitationally (hence 'dark' energy), but :EVEscience:.  :psyccp:

Quote
3. I'm not sure if the anti-matter charges in EVE are built to realistic standards, but 1 gram of anti-matter can cause an explosion the size of the Hiroshima atom bomb. Based off what I've seen in EVE, I'd assume the rounds have maybe 1 molecule of anti-matter sprinkled on the tip of the round. Even if you hauled a lot of anti-matter rounds onto the planet, you'd maybe have an explosion the size of a gasoline bomb or an IED.

Again, possible; it's hard to get a sense of scale for these things. Point remains that you've a ship that fires small family cars or obscenely high-power lasers, though; not sure that anyone would want them landing with someone as fickle (read: batshit insane) as a capsuleer.

FWIW, I've been considering this all from a relatively 'tame' stance, not poking too much at the various fictional technologies; normally, I love to play around with them and see what can be figured out, but for this particular problem I always found it easier to look at it as close to realistically as the (not so realistic :P) universe allows -- if only because this leads me to the same old question of "why bother taking a ship to a planet?". Hauling is handled just fine by customs offices and so on, and what is there to gain in pulling off a perfect landing with an Abaddon or whatever?
« Last Edit: 03 Jul 2011, 09:21 by Kybernetes Moros »
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Tritanium and Atmospheric Capable Spacecraft
« Reply #9 on: 03 Jul 2011, 09:42 »

...and what is there to gain in pulling off a perfect landing with an Abaddon or whatever?

STYLE.  8)

Kemekk

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Re: Tritanium and Atmospheric Capable Spacecraft
« Reply #10 on: 03 Jul 2011, 10:20 »

STYLE.  8)

Haha, this is it! There's not really a reason to land on a planet with a ship like the ones we use in game, but it would be cool.

ARGHLBLARGRFEERDFNEDKASE. This isn't the right place to debate cosmology, but the physicist in me weeps. >> In short, it's hypothesised to be a highly homogeneous, low-density flavour of energy that doesn't interact with the fundamental forces barring gravity, dreamed up to solve the problem of the universe expanding at an accelerating rate. It has a negative pressure so that it can accelerate expansion, but that's it; it doesn't affect gravitational interaction between other objects. The idea of a generator for it's a little whacked, anyway, what with it only interacting gravitationally (hence 'dark' energy), but :EVEscience:.  :psyccp:

The "dark" in dark energy refers to how little we know about it currently. It's possible that in EVE's setting we would have learned more and possible been able to harness that expanding force. Or if that proved to be impossible, electromagnetism is the only other way to simulate anti-gravity (at least that we have come up with in our present time).
« Last Edit: 03 Jul 2011, 10:23 by Kemekk »
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Kybernetes Moros

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Re: Tritanium and Atmospheric Capable Spacecraft
« Reply #11 on: 03 Jul 2011, 10:50 »

The "dark" in dark energy refers to how little we know about it currently. It's possible that in EVE's setting we would have learned more and possible been able to harness that expanding force. Or if that proved to be impossible, electromagnetism is the only other way to simulate anti-gravity (at least that we have come up with in our present time).

Err, no. It's 'dark <energy | matter | flow>' because it's, well, dark. It doesn't interact with the fundamental forces with the exception of gravity. But, as I said, a time and a place; this isn't either. :P

Besides, EVE has artificial gravity anyway; the Caldari use graviton pulse generators in their T2 ships quite extensively, IIRC, so playing about with those wouldn't necessary be off the cards.
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Senn Typhos

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Re: Tritanium and Atmospheric Capable Spacecraft
« Reply #12 on: 03 Jul 2011, 11:05 »

Kyber, I'm on summer break, stop teaching me things. >:/
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Chowda

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Re: Tritanium and Atmospheric Capable Spacecraft
« Reply #13 on: 03 Jul 2011, 14:14 »

Tritanium.
"The main buildingblock in space structures. A very hard, yet bendable metal. Cannot be used in human habitats due to its instability at atmospheric temperatures."

I understand that steel does not share the drawbacks of iron, so it would stand to reason that a tritanium alloy does not share the drawbacks of pure tritanium. Even so, I have not seen PF examples of this in action. It is mentioned in the description of certain planetary industry structures that for improved structural strength they are built with tritanium. However, the interior is kept at a constant cold vacuum.
Well, steel is actually nearly all iron.  Basically, they melt it, mix in small amounts of other metals, cool it, then beat impurities into it for toughness.  The process is altered based on what kind of steel is required.

I would suspect the basic process is mimicked in space stations for metals from trit. In fact, I'd bet Mex and Pye act sort of like Chromium and Lead in our steel.
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Tritanium and Atmospheric Capable Spacecraft
« Reply #14 on: 03 Jul 2011, 14:24 »

Tritanium.
"The main buildingblock in space structures. A very hard, yet bendable metal. Cannot be used in human habitats due to its instability at atmospheric temperatures."

I understand that steel does not share the drawbacks of iron, so it would stand to reason that a tritanium alloy does not share the drawbacks of pure tritanium. Even so, I have not seen PF examples of this in action. It is mentioned in the description of certain planetary industry structures that for improved structural strength they are built with tritanium. However, the interior is kept at a constant cold vacuum.
Well, steel is actually nearly all iron.  Basically, they melt it, mix in small amounts of other metals, cool it, then beat impurities into it for toughness.  The process is altered based on what kind of steel is required.

I would suspect the basic process is mimicked in space stations for metals from trit. In fact, I'd bet Mex and Pye act sort of like Chromium and Lead in our steel.

Exactly. That's my point though. the description for Trit says it's unstable, but I would guess that alloys wouldn't be. I dunno. Unstable primary building metals makes no sense to me.
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