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Author Topic: TonyG  (Read 13361 times)

Seriphyn

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #15 on: 31 Mar 2011, 18:06 »

Okay, that makes sense.
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Kaleigh Doyle

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #16 on: 31 Mar 2011, 20:40 »

I liked The Empyrean Age. It was a good story, and kept me engaged with characters that I liked. The Minmatar ambassador and Heth were characters that made me want to read through and finish the book.

Was it best seller material? Probably not, but it did a good job of entertaining me.

The Burning Life may have been a EVE-Loremaster's wet dream but the stories were dull, the characters were uninteresting (I didn't identify with them at all), and the writing style was atrocious. It's probably why I can't stand, and will not read most of the new chronicles (assuming its the same person). He may be a new author, but he certainly has a way to go, imo.

Anyway, I can understand people's concerns, but at the same time I can't really identify with all the angst over his work.
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Seriphyn

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #17 on: 31 Mar 2011, 20:47 »

I often bitch about Abraxas' chronicles yes, and groan when we had to wait two weeks for some vague chronicle that doesn't mention Amarr, Gallente, Caldari or Minmatar, or anything at all. It makes me groan that it might actually be possible for the chronicle to having nothing to do with EVE whatsoever.

He explores the themes, yes, as Casiella brought up, but the themes are what? Personally, I only prefer commentary if it actually relates to IRL and has some purpose, not chin-wagging about a fictional, improbable universe and all.

EDIT - Take Extinction Burst. Absolutely no content in it.
« Last Edit: 31 Mar 2011, 20:50 by Seriphyn »
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Casiella

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #18 on: 31 Mar 2011, 21:00 »

Hm, that chronicle appears to have some lore about various lifeforms found in the cluster. And not everyone will have the same tastes -- IIRC hellgremlin liked that one, as did I.
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Amann Karris

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #19 on: 31 Mar 2011, 21:46 »

EDIT - Take Extinction Burst. Absolutely no content in it.
On the contrary, I felt it was quite informative, especially as a "bitter vet".  My own extinction bursts might give me a unique perspective, however.  ;)

Not everyone has the same tastes in fiction.  CCP has shown a particular brand of storytelling that some do not like.  I may not particularly like our friend Tony's particular take on storytelling, but I do understand the constraints placed on him.  I can also see where his weaknesses lie, and I don't envy him the task of writing a novel set in EVE.  From that perspective, I question his particular view on EVE, though oddly I trust his skills as an IP manager.  Hopefully he stays more true to what the IP needs, but let's face it; if the last Fanfest said anything, it is that CCP wants the game to stay around for decades.  To do that they need new blood, and perhaps the older players aren't going to particularly agree with the directions taken to draw in that new blood.  Like it or not, Tony's got a hand in drawing in that new blood.

Sure, he has a tendency to use "handwavium" quite a bit.  In my view he can't write a decent female character.  He does have a good sense of the "big picture", even though it is difficult to put that picture into focus on the smaller scales he used in TEA.  Tony could also do with reducing his overall amount of exposition.  However, look at the CCP "culture" that was apparent at the time of TEA's release.  Everything was "EPIC!".  EPIC! storylines, EPIC! expansions, EPIC! everything.  Similarly, look at the Empires as they stood pre-TEA.  Would they have gone to war, save for some EPIC! intervention?

Everything was static, and designed to stay static.  The game environment was dynamic from a mechanics perspective, and the universe seemed very, very huge back then.  Looking at EVE now, from the perspective of veterans, there's not much we haven't done or couldn't do with proper time.  Is a single novel enough to change this?  Some complain that the meta story should be shaped by player interaction.  Is that not already happening, in it's own way?  On the other hand, I myself believe that the meta plot of the franchise should be segregated from player interaction on the levels that some want.

Should players be able to assassinate Heth, for instance?  I mean, he's the "big bad" in the eyes of some, but is that a bad thing?

To quote one of my favorite movies, how do you know who the bad guy is?  He's the exact opposite of the heroes.  You don't get much more opposite from a Capsuleer than a guy that is not a capsuleer, and indeed can't be cloned.  He's as mortal as you can get. ;)  For better or for worse, he's part of the landscape.  He causes conflict.  This is good for a story.  I mean, you are talking about it, right?  You're going on forums to post about it.  Is it enough to destroy your game experience?  Is it enough to drive you away?  :bear:  Or are you morbidly drawn to this, wondering just when he's going to kick the bucket, and how big the explosion will be when things finally hit the fan?

Think about it for a minute.

Should there be blind hatred for Tony, or should there be a concerted effort in showing him what we have issues with?  Trying to constructively work towards a better EVE is far more likely to get results than burning down the dreams of a man simply trying to make an interesting story.  I think he succeeds, even though some of the details get lost in translation.

Like psychic powers for instance.  :twisted:
« Last Edit: 31 Mar 2011, 22:05 by Amann Karris »
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Vendrin

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #20 on: 31 Mar 2011, 23:27 »

Having had a few drinks with tony at FF, he's a good guy, and understands most concerns. The fact of the matter is, he doesn't get to dictate where the storyline goes. Content does. They pick what's they want to focus on in the expansion etc, and he and others have to come up with a way for it all to happen. Sometimes they do better then others.

We are lucky CCP has anyone doing this job, and at least TonyG enjoys it and is willing to respond to criticism.
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Saede Riordan

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #21 on: 01 Apr 2011, 03:58 »

Amann I was halfway through your post before I realized I was hearing it narrated by The Professor. Thats pretty awesome. Also, your post basically sums up my thoughts on it. Simply raging at the guy is not constructive in the slightest.
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Julianus Soter

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #22 on: 01 Apr 2011, 06:18 »

Unless you're claiming Aria Jenneth's post is 'simply raging', then I don't believe anyone here has blind, emotional gripes with the personage of TonyG. Whether's it is because of his mysogonistic portrayal of women, or his failures of character development, or his shattering of EVE canon, there are rational and reasonable arguments for why the person should be unemployed, at this moment, on the curb like every other 2-bit english writter out there.
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Desiderya

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #23 on: 01 Apr 2011, 07:04 »

I've read better and far, far worse novels.
The basic storyline was known to me before I read it, since I enjoyed delving through chronicles and articles on evelopedia concerning the rise of the patriot Heth and the following outbreak of hostilities between the State and the Federation.
When I read the book I met an entirely different picture of the two entities than what I gathered from the PF sources. It was extremely polarizing, which isn't automatically bad, and very onesided, which is.
We get the Federation described as "a working utopia", better than everything else in every aspect, without a scratch in the facade, and the State near bancrupted by corrupt, hedonistic and exploiting corporations (hello, financial crisis), on the brink of breakdown.
That is not entirely how I pieced the things together both a few years back and a few months earlier when I returned to EVE. This kind of threw me off.
I'd be more okay with the turn of events without the broker messing around. The visible storyline isn't that bad, even with Heth being too fascistoid for my tastes. Rising to power after a workers' revolution, playing the 'mob' by their patriotic ideals (Malkalen in mind, too) and reclaiming Caldari Prime.
Knowing that his success was bought, all the incidents that fueled the contempt for the completely innocent Federation were staged and even the grand finale was just a mixture of his meddling and dumb luck is just unsatisfying.
Mind you, I wouldn't bother playing 'the bad side', meaning: I'd have Des support the attack on Luminaire even if it wasn't provoked by anything. The conflict could've worked without fishing for reasons that leave the antagonists even more looking like innocent victims.
It's this mixture of retconning the situation of the State in regard of economic and social structure and the senseless villainifying that made me dislike that book. This aforementioned layer of subterfuge mended in through the broker doesn't really work for me. Either both sides are in on it - to quote Blackadder "Because it was too much effort, not to have a war." - or one is the aggressor. I wouldn't have a problem with Heth and therefore the state playing that role at all. I mean, there'd be much to build this upon with the Caldari-Gallente war hundred years back. It would just need the wrong/right man in the right place.
I don't see real problems for the current situation, with Heth being 'kind of a dictator', though. You can still play the liberal role as well as that of a patriot, without having to be a fascist.
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Vieve

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #24 on: 01 Apr 2011, 07:58 »

The DH and I, while watching the Future Vision video (while he doesn't play the game anymore, he still loves the setting), got into a discussion about the differences between TEA and TBL. He hasn't read either, and wanted me to sum them up without spoilering them.

I offered an "If x were a movie, it'd be directed by y..." explanation.  I believe TEA would be directed by Michael Bay, and TBL by Terry Gilliam.

And, hey, Casi?  I thought of a better way to describe the differences than using an analogical comparison of TEA and TBL to Bay's Transformers and Gilliam's Brazil.  TEA to Bay's Armageddon vs. TBL to Gilliam's Twelve Monkeys.*

*Don't misinterpret my comparison as criticism.  Both Armageddon and Twelve Monkeys are on my personal favorite movies list.  Armageddon also has the dubious distinction of being one of the three movies that makes me cry every time I watch the damn thing.




  
« Last Edit: 01 Apr 2011, 08:10 by Vieve »
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Hamish Grayson

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #25 on: 01 Apr 2011, 08:37 »

It's I don't wanna miss a thing by Aerosmith isn't it  :P
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Invelious

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #26 on: 01 Apr 2011, 10:36 »

CCP approved his work. What more can I say. Is it his fault?
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Lyn Farel

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #27 on: 01 Apr 2011, 10:40 »

My main concern with TEA was not changing the story, or rocking the boat a little. My concern is more about the radical simplification of the setting.

The State was probably the most damaged, with a nazi leader taking the throne above all the megas and the corporate pannel (wtf ? an unique leader for the caldari ?). We have lost at least a part of the complexity and realism in caldari corporate politics, at the exterior level at least : you still have the megas tricking each other in the background, but the cluster relationship is not with this or this mega, now it is with Heth, Heth, Heth and Heth.

The Minmatar Republic encountered the same issue, though Shakor still makes more sense. But yet we lost the subtlety of the tribal ladder that existed in the Republic. Now every tribe worship Shakor, Shakor, Shakor and Shakor.

The Amarr Empire shifted in power. We had a very open emperor with Doriam, but still not a huge liberal, and now we have a weird orthodox conservative empress that has almost supressed the whole idea of the Privy Council, even if it still exists. Every heir has almost the same views, and blindly follow Jamyl, Jamyl, Jamyl and Jamyl.

The only empire that got more or less spared of these simplifications was the Federation, I suppose.

It is logical to get some new leaders in times of war. It is logical to have a single face in dictatorships, but the point was in Eve that even the Amarr Empire was not a monolithic political bloc.

Nothing is wasted yet, but they really should review the whole political balance and roster in each of the factions. They have to bring back a little more of the shades of greys we had at the beginning, because we still see them, but less, very less.
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Vieve

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #28 on: 01 Apr 2011, 10:45 »

It's I don't wanna miss a thing by Aerosmith isn't it  :P

No.  That song makes me wince, not cry.  It's the scene where Liv Tyler says goodbye to Bruce Willis. I tear up every damn time, and kick myself for doing it.

'Cause seriously, it's almost as much over-the-top-heartstring-yanking as a Hallmark movie*, and I should know better.

*Disclaimer: I don't watch Hallmark movies, so I'm just guessing at this.


« Last Edit: 01 Apr 2011, 10:49 by Vieve »
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Casiella

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #29 on: 01 Apr 2011, 11:34 »

CCP approved his work. What more can I say. Is it his fault?

If you see his title, then you see that the "approval" may not mean as much as it otherwise might.
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