Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Galm Fae on 12 Aug 2013, 23:14
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Yes, that is the topic. I could have worded my way around it to make it sound cooler, but there is no point. Earlier I had posted an idea on the summit that I desperately wish to see come to fruition
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96147&find=unread
I have become fixated on what the pop and counterculture of a ridged and structured society like the Caldari would be like, and I would simply love to hear your thoughts on the matter. Someday I hope to build up the courage enough to put my songwriting skills to the test and develop lyrics to an entire song in Napanii (though I would probably end up making up a large amount of the filler words.)
I know it can be hard to imagine an entire sound, so I suppose I should offer certain examples. Certain modern bands like the Nico Vega or Ludo come close, but I think the closest example of what I could envision is a Fall Out Boy type of sound, particularly if you have ever listened to the song "From Now On We Are Enemies." The short electronic rift at the start is what I imagine the unique instrument used would sound like, particularly when followed by a energized chorus. I feel like a typical band would be composed of two lead singers instead of one however, as a sort of throwback to Raata markuu yn vaito.
If you don't know what song I am talking about (and I am sure most won't) here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCQ94j93u8Y
(Humorously enough when I started thinking about this song in the context of capsuleers, it oddly fits.)
Anyway, I really would enjoy some input on the idea. I just think it is a wonderful idea that can be justified easily by what we know of Caldari society.
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I think something like this (were it to develop within the State, as opposed to Caldari creating this outside of its borders) would go the route of Pussy Riot and such. It's not so much that the Caldari State is rigid and structured, I think, but more that its people are so dedicated to the "all for one" mentality. Nothing matters but the group. Those who are not part of the group are ignored at best or "removed" at worst. Individualism, particularly the kind that promotes further individualism, would probably not be viewed in a flattering light.
That isn't to say bands like this promoting the State, its ideals, etc. wouldn't find support among the masses.
And again, I could be wrong entirely and someone with far more knowledge can correct me.
EDIT: I specified individualism as my example of counterculture behavior/theme...not to say this is what you would focus on, and likely, the reaction by the State would more than likely differ depending on the band's subject material.
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I operated on the assumption that anything directly against the state (at least at the time the movement started) would receive extremely negative feedback. At the time, the Caldari had only just secured a State, no one wanted to be the guy to speak up for libertarian ideals considering the last conflict with the Gallente. In a sense though, you are still half-right. I imagine it would certainly be a way of criticizing government, but it wasn't just for the sake of protest. As another reference to markuu yn vaitu, I would imagine it would be a modern representation on the ideals of the Raata period.
Still, as I alluded, that wouldn't stop some bands from doing exactly like you guessed and taking it to a borderline freedom fighting standard. My character was proud of his Caldari heritage though, so he tried to pass bands like that off as not really the same genre.
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Remember: the State is a culture of billions of people, and while collectivism and duty are virtues in Caldari society, it isn't a fully dystopian "OBEY" society.
I keep repeating something that I think is important to understanding the Caldari: look at this picture (https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/communityassets/img/chronicles/chronicleImage/tomorrowadream.jpg).
All very Soviet, right? Red flags, the logo of the State, speech. Obviously a rally of some kind. So far, so conformist. But front and center you have a girl in a halter-top with a full back tattoo and dyed hair. Next to a scruffy kid with long hair and a more professional looking person in a suit with neat hair.
This is not a society where even the remotest trace of individual taste, thought and opinion is stepped on by a brutal grinding regime. There are no thought police in Caldari society, there's just a prevailing zeitgeist about what behaviour constitutes a good citizen.
Which is something we get in the real world, too. Good British citizens obey the law, believe in democracy and free speech, are intolerant of bigotry and so on. The zeitgeist of the USA places substantial importance on religiosity.
So the State is not a place where you aren't free to be, and to express, yourself. Their culture doesn't actually treat things like your haircut or what music you listen to as being indicative of any alarming tendencies. You can show up to listen to an important executive speak without security treating you as a dangerous anarchistic rebel just because you happen to be wearing a halter top to show off your ink.
All of which means that Caldari music probably runs the gamut from screaming death-thrash-punk-whatever black noise that you get drunk and flail around to in a mosh pit all the way to the Echelon Army of hyper-produced parental-approval teenage starlets who are discarded the instant their first wrinkle or grey hair shows up and live the rest of their lives doing menial work in anonymity. Music is big business, and that band's style and image are their brand, and different brands sell. The corps aren't stupid - they know they can make just as much off the Caldari equivalent of Rage Against The Machine as they can off of some swaggering pretty boy called Jitsun Riebeb, and they know that the minority of listeners who might actually take the RATM-equivalent's message and use it to inspire them to acts of anti-corporate anarchy can almost certainly be contained and dealt with by security.
It's a free market in the State, remember. Whatever sells, sells and in a music market of billions of citizens there is room for damn near ANY musical niche taste to have at least a few bands on a corporate record label somewhere.
Not so different to the record companies we have today IRL, in fact.
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Stuff like boy bands would be a Gallente import I would think. Would find it hard to imagine they would develop it on their own (especially if you look at the origins of "pop music" irl)
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Well if you want to "Make it big" in the State as an artist, eventually you're going to have to sign to a label. And once you sign to a corporate label they can end up exerting a lot of control and influence on the content of what is produced. The point though is that it's more important if that content would sell than what it actually contains. Just take Nugoeihuvei - one of the factors that might have contributed to its rise to Megacorp status was that it was willing to sign and market the type of music others would not. It would also be extremely difficult for other Megas to censor the material NOH sells because then NOH could just file an Anti-Competition suit in the Caldari Business Tribunal.
The elements of authoritarianism in the State don't derive from an all-powerful centralized government that controls everything: They derive from all powerful corporations that control everything. The means of control they exert over their citizens is offset by the fact that they operate in a highly competitive free-market environment and that every corporation is a human institution that draw their legitimacy from their employee/citizens. Corporate Leaders have a lot of power, but they're restricted by the fact that if they act with too much internal repression then they run the risk of getting the boot either by other ambitious subordinates or their employees. Power is distributed in the State not through a repressive regime but through the Machiavellian machinations of Corporate Executives who at once know how to play the game of boardroom realpolitik by effectively managing Fear and Love in those beneath them. Can a CEO send in the jackboots to solve problems? Sure, but they've got to be certain they covered their own asses lest the mobs overthrow them.
The Caldari State to me has less in common with Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia and much more with Hellenic Greece or Renaissance Italy in that you have a wide array of different city-states who are always in competition with each other while also identifying culturally as a whole as being Greek or Italian. In the same way, the Caldari State has a wide array of competing corporations who are always in competition with each other but whose people identify collectively to the values of being Caldari. The type of freedoms Caldari citizens have doesn't come from a constitution but is inherently derived from the competition of its corporations. The restrictions on those freedoms don't come from a repressive central government which the State does not have but rather from the cultural conformity pressures from society at large, both subtle and overt, as to acting properly as a Caldari and which in itself can vary to degrees dependent on things like your family, your work colleagues, and corporate media.
I mean I've enjoyed some of the exchanges between Veikitamo Gesakaarin of Kaalakiota and Verin Hakatain of Ishukone because it displays that while individual Caldari might have differences in thought and opinion they always retain that common ground of sharing similar values as Caldari. I don't see internal factionalism as a bad thing, rather the debates, discussion and discourses available due to them is much more engaging and enjoyable than having the Caldari all waving the same flag and screaming, "FOR THE STATE".
To return to the topic of Caldari music though, my Veik is a big fan of NOH/SuVee brand Achur-pop (A-pop). Some might call it sexy Gallente exploitation of mostly Achur women but if it's anything like Girl's Generation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXZWudcVzEg) how could she not be a fan?
Super cute!
Truly, only a pervert Gallentean would think having innocent and studious Achur ladies showing a bit of skin as something sexual.
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You know, I never really gave much thought to what kind of music Verin likes...
I guess on reflection his tastes would run to modern takes on traditional music forms, much like Valravn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7il84fVUnY), and modern (but not avant-garde) classical music much like Nate's Theme (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bErx5usjPDA), and I daresay the Fanfest symphony (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aWmGNRoGLhc&t=2095) would suit his tastes down to the ground.
The point being that in a thriving corporate economy like the State's all of that and more would be available, along with very likely a lot of GalNet streaming "radio" stations catering to any taste that's sufficiently mainstream to be profitable. yes, including boy bands.
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I should specify that I did not mean to say that something like this could not exist. But more to the fact that something promoting ideas not widely accepted would not find much traction/support/success (via EVE standards). And if they push the envelope, receive similar treatment to the band I referenced (though in no way did I mean to imply the State was Russia/USSR - they were just the most recent RL example I could think of, though this could more or less be more of a heth regime response, and we see where that's at now...).
Sound and such is a completely different matter and unless we're thinking rock music is the devil's music (which I'm not) I don't disagree that bands that sound like Fall Out Boy and such would not be wildly popular. I agree that there would be people who would enjoy the counterculture message as well, within the State, but as Gesakaarin said, they would eventually need to sign on to a Mega to make it big. To make it big (EVE style), I would think their message would need to apply across all corporate boundaries. Each of the Megas has wildly differing ideas on how to proceed with business and (competition and the acquisition of wealth notwithstanding) each has its own specialty and theme, if you will. I would think that its employees would find similar value in those methods/ideology, otherwise they'd work somewhere else. Unless a band only wishes to be popular with Ishukone or Kaalakiota, their message would have to touch on those things citizens working for any of the Megas find in common. Now, if said band only cares about making profit with Kaalakiota, and is singing to appease its masses alone, then they'd be fairly popular I'm sure, but not so much with Suukuvestaa or Ishukone, etc.
It's like an indie band. If all the band does is stay in Brooklyn, sure, they'd be popular in Brooklyn - have identified with the Brooklyn crowd, have a distinctly Brooklyn sound, and sing a distinctly Brooklyn message. And if Brooklyn money is all they desire, awesome. Sure, over time, they'll gain a small following outside of Brooklyn because of some small gigs in other towns, but Kings of Leon they are not. They'd have to sell out. They'd be shaped by the Mega to make more money. More money means needing more fans.
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If you want scary boyband songs that couls apply to Capsuleers:
http://youtu.be/PN1EFs9XQoc
I think this is more Gallentean though..
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I'm loving all the thoughts being thrown around here! I suppose you make a really good point Veyako. At the time of writing this I was in the sort of mindset that Galm is the kind of scrub who insists on listening only to indie music and feels that any bands that have "sold out" to corperate labels aren't worth the time. (I guess even space has hipsters. I live in Seattle, what do you want me to do?) I briefly touched base on this in that post when I made up the bands Kaijuya and Erikosomaru. They were meant to represent the bands that made that jump to corperate stardom that stopped playing for the music and started to just go for the biggest shock factor to attract listeners. You see it happening all the time in pop garbage these days. "Oh wow, genericband just did I music video where they were dressed up as seahorses, you have to see this!"
By contrast the first people to start the counterculture movement I imagine would have a reaction similar to when Rock and Roll first began to crop up in the 60s. While wildly successful, it would not be accepted by all members of society at first. Heck a lot of bands from the era are more successful in death then they were alive.
Still, I really like input from all of you! Esspecially the reference to J/K-pop! I could totally see that being a thing too. Similarly, I can also see a pop culture in the State two were a disgustingly perfect troop of boys are made to look pretty for adoring masses all itching to listen to the same revamped song with hollow lyrics.
...
My god, this all seems horrifyingly familiar.
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uh...Anslo has a rock band, if that could help you with anything?..
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uh...Anslo has a rock band, if that could help you with anything?..
I'm sure we can find something nifty to do! :)
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I agree with Stitch. Also note that there's what looks like a giant drum set to the left on the stage in the picture he linked.
Also remember that the State is the smallest empire by population, but the second largest economic power. The corporations manage this by being interested in one thing above all else: profit. Not necessarily money, mind you, because these aren't Wall Street executives who can offload externalities onto a government or host population. But profit: land, assets, ISK, and options on resource exploitation. And they have a HUGE market for sports and betting related activities (Caldari Demographics article). The Caldari may be very communal, work hard, and live in dormitories and other efficient housing systems, but they also apparently play hard. This actually makes sense from an economic perspective: playing hard generates fiscal fluidity, but housing is essentially a sunk cost with maintenance fees.
Also, always remember that a corporation trying to make a profit with a limited population base simply cannot afford to treat its employees like slaves. Workers are assets, and firing someone because they don't quite fit in is to essentially throw away years of investment in time and money, especially for a corporation that has to care for the worker up to that point.
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Also remember that the State is the smallest empire by population, but the second largest economic power.
I'm interested to know where you got that ? Caldari Demographics article ? I haven't read them all :|
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Actually, I believe it's said somewhere the State just recently overtook the Republic in terms of population. Don't quote me on that, though, because I only have blurry memories.
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Doesn't surprise me, considering that only a fraction of Minmatar actually live in the Republic.
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The trailer for Magic Mike (http://magicmikemovie.warnerbros.com/dvd/) always struck me as an advertisement for a Civire strip club.
"You don't want to know what I have to do for twenty NOH scrip."
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The trailer for Magic Mike (http://magicmikemovie.warnerbros.com/dvd/) always struck me as an advertisement for a Civire strip club.
"You don't want to know what I have to do for twenty NOH scrip."
I can't unthink that now.
I am going to go eat a pint of haagen dazs and try to forget.
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Peanut butter and chocolate HD pint is best pint.
Also, you're welcome.
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https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State
Entertainer
The professional gladiators, gamers, and gamblers of the State make up the entertainment caste of the Caldari[9]. This group is widely considered the most diverse in the State, being made up of citizens from a wide array of backgrounds, particularly ordinary Caldari who broke into the professional scene through luck or skill. At the bottom, competitors engage in daily battles to ascend up the ranks, a labor grind in itself. At the top, prestiged warriors are honored highly by the Caldari masses, and are among the most wealthy State citizens. The dynamics of this particular brand of entertainment means it is very easy to plummet to become a nobody, even from an esteemed position. The non-meritocratic nature regarding games of chance is mostly overlooked by the Caldari.
A slight majority of the members of this caste are from the NOH corporation, though they are nonetheless found in all corporations. Entertainers in the commercial arts (such as music and visual media) are few and far between, as this is not considered an aspect of typical Caldari entertainment. This niche is filled in by the Gallente instead. There is a niche in Caldari entertainment for the classical arts, consumed by the chief executive and executive castes. Citizens who have already well-established themselves in one of the more standard fields can earn respect by the production of classical artwork in the ascetic and minimalist Caldari style. Wealthy traditionalists pay a large cash sum to these individuals. It is considered bad form for a citizen to earn a living purely from making art, as their art must be representative of everyday Caldari living, and not the product of a detached citizen who does not commit to the same hard work as everyone else.
Judging from this, it would imply that a Caldari Boy Band would be a rare thing. I'll also steal some lines from the movie "Emperor"; not to associate the State with Japan, but to better explain the concept he uses to view the State.
There are two Japanese
words you should know.
"Tatemae," the way things appear,
"honne," the way they really are.
When you look at Japan,
you see the most modern and
Westernized of Asian countries,
but that is a tatemae, the surface.
And the honne?
It is the true heartbeat of my country,
which is more than 2,000 years old.
It has nothing to do with the West.
Japan runs on the
ancient warrior code
of loyalty and obedience.
We're talking about a nation that is known for its economy. A government run by corporations. A system of citizenship that requires employment to even be a blip on someone's RADAR. A people who, yes I agree, play hard because they work hard. But at the same time, there is the underlying heartbeat of the State. That which prides hard work, honor, service, and loyalty. I wont quote the soldier portion of the demographics, but it clearly mentions (beyond having the largest percentage ratio of soldiers/citizens) that ALL citizens must accomplish compulsory basic training during adolescence and can be called upon during national crisis to take up arms. The Caldari State is known to have a highly militarized nature. The commonality enforced on all citizens (regardless of corporation) is military training/service - not corporate earnings.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Trimming_the_Fat
This mission contains the following:
Because of the importance placed on "saving face" in Caldari culture, mid- and high-level executives often remain employed despite failures in leadership or performance, simply because firing them publicly would damage the corporation's reputation. In extreme cases, it is not altogether unknown for superiors within the corporation to arrange "accidents" for executives who fail to meet objectives and threaten their employer's bottom line. This eliminates the drain on corporate resources and allows them to save face.
So...in the course of typing this, I feel I've gone in a few tangents, but...all in all...I do not disagree with anything anyone has said. My original point, bolstered by the input given by Gesakaarin - is that a band could exist, but it'll likely have a message that is widely accepted across the entire State (maximum profit) and do nothing to cast a negative light on anything that could potentially damage the band's corporate master's image.
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I recently had a thought:
With neural interface technology, wouldn't the act of physically playing an instrument become obsolete to song writers? If someone can think up the rift to a song and a drum beat, is there some way he can transfer it to a device right from his coconut? I only ask because I just got an idea for a nice bit of (admittedly hilariously over the top) fiction were a Mind Clash player can make unique hallucinations by pairing it to an original song, so people would crowd to see her for the dual thrill of seeing the match and hearing her latest tune.
Yes, I am perfectly aware how ridiculously weeaboo that sounds, but would it be possible? I mean, imagine how successful something like that would be!
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I don't see why not. Sounds rather cool.
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Internal motivational piece, produced by the [DUTY] civire musical corps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLX4NYrW1bI
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If you want scary boyband songs that couls apply to Capsuleers:
http://youtu.be/PN1EFs9XQoc
I think this is more Gallentean though..
As long as we are talking about scary songs that apply to capsuleers, this song could have just as easily been written about the Blood Raiders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1z8xCBRxkg
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If it doesn't necessarily need to be a boy band, there is a ton.. literal tons of industrial music that fits the genre perfectly in both lyrics and ability to use as a soundtrack for enemy explosive decompression.
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Caldari Boyband... IMO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkTRamZ0PsQ
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Caldari Boyband... IMO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkTRamZ0PsQ
Seems like a Civire beer commerical.