Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Aldrith Shutaq on 07 May 2012, 14:50
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In going through some of the old posts on ye olde KotMC forums, I found a little post made ages ago:
Cyber Knights:
The Cyber Knights are a form of military nobility in the Amarr Empire who's martial practices originate from the Khanid Kingdom. These warriors come from wealthy noble families that formed elite brotherhoods with highly ritualized warrior codes. Most of these knightly orders are at least centuries old.
It is common for cyber knights to begin their training at a very young age. Such conditioning is comparable to the Subigo Houses that produce the fearsome Kameira infantry that serve in the Imperial Army. While there are similarities between the two, the vastly better social standing of Cyber Knights in the higher castes of Amarr Society places them at a much higher place in the military hierarchy than mere elite infantry.
To stay competitive in a modern world filled with deadly technology the Cyber Knight resorts to extensive body enhancement. The advanced knowledge of cyber-implants possessed by the Amarrians has been exceptionally useful in this regard. Some Amarrians still seek to excel in melee combat while the more progressive ones seek to become masters of modern warfare.
Since the appearance of capsuleers there has been a notable rise in the number of Amarrian knightly orders. The competition-driven and battle-hungry nature of these demi-gods seems a perfect match, especially with their access to some of the most advanced cybernetics and cloning technology.
(http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab96/Shalee_Lianne/cyberknight_test.jpg)
I'm not entirely sure who wrote it, but that image is courtesy of Lucius Vindictus' photoshop skillz!
So anyway, this got me thinking. CCP has yet to touch upon the subject of cyber knights at all in their canon, besides the initial blurb in the Khanid bloodline thing. However, a great many RP'ers have taken the idea and run away with it, forming their own ideas on just how swords and honor can fit into the EVE universe. I know I certainly have.
What are your thoughts on the subject?
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Kai Leng from Mass Effect 3 comes quickly to mind.
spoilers just in case you haven't played the game, but I'm seeing two shades of Khanid Cyberknights. Kai Leng infiltrator/assassin types, and the heavy / front line soldier types.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5p5UwEEAWw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9NHEMUSfU4
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Just because they are knights it doesn't follow that they will be using swords in an era of advanced laser technology.
In fact, being a capsuleer could be thought of as the ultimate current expression of the cyber knight ideal.
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Absolutely right, but ninja cyborgs wrecking people has a coolness all it's own ;)
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(http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab96/Shalee_Lianne/cyberknight_test.jpg)
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Nice pic.... It love the hoody (I like the more corner hoody) and the amor as whole (the colors are fitting).
Absolutely right, but ninja cyborgs wrecking people has a coolness all it's own ;)
It sure has :) ...Maybe the sword would be some sort of finale weapon (so like Arnulf said, no real use)... some sort of ritual, which you have to follow to reclaim souls..... like if you kill someone with a sword... he finds god.... some sort of "respect our enemy" thing. :P
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The CCP description explicitly states that "some Khanid still aim to excel in physical combat, while the more progressive ones seek to become masters of modern warfare," physical suggesting hand-to-hand melee warfare. The statment also suggests a huge amount of variance between individual cyber knights/cyber knight orders. Knowing the Amarrian tendency towards tradition over common-sense practicality, I really have no doubt in my mind that a huge reason behind many cyber knights' heavy implantation is specifically so that traditional methods of combat can still be employed on a battlefield. There is also very likely to be a massive amount of mixing as well. I give you an example of a weapon (from Warhammer 40,000, no less) to illustrate this:
(http://www.agisn.de/assets/images/PA_Custodes1.jpg)
This guy is holding a halberd-like weapon. With a freakin' gun infused with the shaft. He also holds a shield, which I'm sure is able to deflect a huge amount of small arms fire. Heavy armor/rather creative devices would be needed just so a cyber knight would have the chance to get into melee with an opposing force anyway. This very fact opens things up for quite a lot of creativity.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cWnuxLbc34
There, at 1:04 is something that springs to mind if you're not thinking assassin. :D
Cyberknight may come in many forms. Basically we're talking about 'augmented humans' with the intention of improving skills in battle. I guess the "knight" part comes second and might be different depending on which order or group you're going to serve in.
After all, the whole idea of knighthood is more or less just a chivalrous concept, which looked very different in reality. So I wouldn't automatically think that an EVE version would be much different.
And since skill in battle is relative, too, capsuleers could be considered similar. They're augmented for a very distinct purpose - skill in spaceship ( battle ).
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Ehm... nice idea... but I wouldnt go that way (just meant for this post (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3230.msg49406#msg49406))... because EVE canon isnt so much fantasy (ghost poster was faster)
Why I mention fantasy?.... It is how can I put this.... It is alomst a "natural law"/scientific law that militarys are in equipment and weapons most of the time forward working.... It comes from the pressure of reality... that you cannt field some "awesome warriors" with some old school weapons like the old schah from persia... which had love in the 70s all the antic stuff like shields and chariotry, but in the military isnt any use of them..... So what happend, they become some toysoldiars for parades. On the other hand the "military"/"high command" had always pressure the Schah and the USA, to get the "best"/"up to date" equipment and weapons (from the US).
Thats why many solars in the 70s thought.... military regime would be more likely to be modern/advance their countrys... and would be in the longrun more stabil and leadtheir nations in the end to democracys etc.. (like RoC, aka Taiwan).
Of course this Idea is since the mid and late 70s more or less toast/falsified tru reality (again reality, bad reality :P).... but still... the rule is: A military which isnt up to date is more likely to loss; so the internal pressure for modernisation is in the military itself still working.... (but not for society as whole).
Thats why I think... or lets say.... I love your Idea, but also think it doesnt fit for EVE. If you dont want a "toy army"/parade army" - or play as RP as one Toywarrior.
I would go with some culture excuses, why you fit the old weapon...
Still overall I love this Idea.... rock it (maybe I add in my little story a section than about the cyperknights/cyperninjas. It would awesome :)
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Lemme just post some pictures... I was saving these for something special, but...
(http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/145/b/2/water_palace_by_roboto_kun-d3h7bq3.jpg)
(http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/074/0/e/the_elites_by_rhinoting-d4st7if.jpg)
(http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs47/f/2009/244/7/8/Duel_by_hokunin.jpg)
(http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs45/f/2009/085/4/1/Shrapnel_by_OmeN2501.jpg)
(http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs11/i/2006/171/f/c/Mal__ak_Adonai_by_OmeN2501.jpg)
Do really none of these look like they could happen in EVE?
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1 sure... some tradional acedamy.... I can see that.
2 maybe.... but like something what I think on the EU stuff... Why than make not everything out of this awesome sword material.
3 I dont know.... I looks a little like one of those mobs/beast in this awful grind mmos. :P Just joking. But in reality.... just take a imperior and kill it/or land with imperor on it.... so it would be again more a ritual thing.
4 I love it... because its a chick :P ... I can see that she ..like I said use the weapon for some final ritual.
5 Again.... some ritual thing.... this time with some tradinal clothes... which have to be use for the ritual......
But that is just my 50 Cent..... like I said.... It can fit... and it is a really welcome addition.... but I wouldnt sell it as some valid suff.... I would play.. like normal, but add for example to the Dust stuff some tradional and ritual flaws.
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The CCP description explicitly states that "some Khanid still aim to excel in physical combat, while the more progressive ones seek to become masters of modern warfare,"
When I took that line and ran with it when doing some character background design (it's probably best not to ask), I went down the path of 'modern warfare is fought as much within the enemy's government and board rooms as it is the battlefield'. I imagine(d) some cyber Knights -- and by extension, their Kameira -- as being more like The Operative in Serenity (or River Tam, for that matter) than someone in power armor.
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People like playing the space marine badass fantasy type, hm? Heh.
Never really paid attention to it myself. Too much Mary Sue "I r awesum" to it.
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Eve is wide and vast, and there is room for many visions. #4 is ace, by the way.
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Val is of cyberknight stock and with him I try to play him as honourable and chivalric in an old school way. While he shows a keen interest in the ladies, he tries to protect those who need protection (like Kat) and plays the ardent lover to others (heh.) His Romeo-like proclaimations are part of his chivalric mindset.
He also challenges people to single combat from time-to-time and is always happy to accept challenges.
As for a sword-wielding badass out of the pod, that had never really occured to me, but I suppose that's pretty cool.
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Forgot one ;)
(http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/364/6/8/legionnaires_by_andreewallin-d4kkysz.jpg)
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That last one looks like it could be from Dust : so very much EVE.
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I would think that the tradition of knighthood would be like all traditions, something from the past.
As far as I can tell being a knight is about following a certain code of conduct in life and in the battlefield.
For example here's a few simple ones:
-Never refuse a duel.
-Never strike someone from the behind.
-Never retreat.
-Never kill women and children.
-Never lie.
-Never talk to a heathen.
Then a few harder ones:
-Always wield a sword in your right arm.
-Always have the banner of your house displayed on your chest.
-Always sing the hymn of the Saint Atheroth when in combat.
A few ridiculous ones.
-To honor the founder of the Order you must never have a weapon in your left hand.
-To honor the sacrifice of your fallen brothers you must never wear a helmet.
-To honor the True Amarr and their journey through the desert you must never wear any footwear.
The cyber part is just about making these archaic loonies be viable in a wartime situation.
The cyber part is not the thing that is cool, Robocop wasn't cool because he could deflect bullets and shoot accurate ricochets. Robocop was cool because he had heart and the honor code of a good policeman stuck in a body that was designed to be nothing but a cold law enforcer.
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Noteworthily, it is just Europe where knights were expected to fight honourably hand-to-hand. In Japan, for example, archery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABjutsu) was considered to be more important during wartime.
On swords: Using effectively a sword is a status symbol. I cannot see why some wouldn't still strive to use a sword effectively in close combat - but this doesn't rule out using such things as using ranged weapons, a command role (mindlinks?) or some other roles for the cyberknights. The modernists, though, might be special in abandoning keeping a sword altogether, but even the traditionalists (with exceptions) might realize that they can't rely solely on hand-to-hand combat.
Edit: Also, if we consider that the Khanid possibly take some hints from Mongolians - then practice in using ranged weapons might be very important. Implant assisted archery? Mounted on a combat vehicle instead of an animal? The "Three Manly Skills" traditional to Mongolia are wrestling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_wrestling), riding and archery.
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Successful portrayals of Cyberknights will take care to encompass the main dichotomy of many Khanid in general: A fervent support of tradition, the past, and honor, while at the same time wholly embracing modern technology and a practical approach to problem solving.
I'd see this in some knights using the past as more of a 'reference' in their individual armaments, code of conduct, etc. The ideals of the 14th Century knight updated to modern warfare.
And I'd imagine you'd have some real die-hards who have had some man or woman with a sword as a weapon in their family for 3,000 years and they'll be damned if they don't have an edge weapon on them of some sort at-all-times.
The 'traditional' aspects I'd also imagine being much more important for mental training and conditioning. Learning to sword fight before a gun is even placed in your hands, etc.
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"This ship is my sword. My faith is my armor. Like my brothers and sisters before me, I go into battle in an exoskeleton of steel for which I have been adapted. Space is my battleground. My life is not my own, my service belongs to Holder and God. Let my enemies know fear for I am implacable. Khanid Victor!"
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Rawr!
Sounds good Tib.
I think we'd have to separate the space-based capsuleer 'cyberknights' vs the ground-pounders, though.
With the Khanid people being the ground-force vanguard for the Empire since the first wars on Athra I feel like most of these men and women are of the boots-on-the-ground tradition.
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I'm not sure we do, to be honest. Cyberknights are unique in that they have been changed to suit the job that needs doing. In a way, theres no difference between implanting yourself into a suit of power armor, and carrying a laser rifle and a giant fuck-off sword, and getting capsuleer implants to allow yourself to operate in space.
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Right, I guess it just matters how the term is eventually defined. I like the more loose interpretation that there are many different kinds and that the 'tradition' continues in the modern age, and that there are many different varieties to explore
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I imagine that the tradition could be loosely adapted from the cavalry sorts of knights (most of them). Your ship is your steed!
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Giddyup!
I think what I was trying to say is that I imagine the space-based Khanids to be a very small minority in comparison to their ground forces. They have a small (but tough) space force, and their 'strength' militarily is still centered around ground/planetary forces. I'd imagine then that the ground commanders are still the 'favorites' as far as notoriety goes, but it is slowly being eroded in the capsuleer era.
Much in the same way that in the beginning of the 20th century the British Navy and Army and their commanders were by far the more 'important' branches, with the first air divisions getting little love initially, but eventually becoming more and more important.
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Mortis was made a Cyberknight... accidentally. I might be dreaming, but I don't remember picking that option when I first created him in the days of yore.
Since then, I kind of turned the whole thing into a family tradition which has been watered down over the years. All my Tyrathlion characters (both the two capsuleers and various NPCs) have been more-than-average implanted, but not much beyond that. Repentence has moved in the direction of combat training, and I figure that they're generally 'better' than the average human, but they're not exactly true Cyber Knights, I think.
With the whole 'swords' thing, though... I think they still have a place and function in the Eve universe. Bayonets are still commonly distributed in modern militaries, even if their use is very much a tertiary consideration - and that's bearing in mind that warfare doesn't get much more enclosed than streets, and the occasional building. Fair enough - groundpounders wouldn't have that much use for a full-on sword unless it was something like the ME3 omniblades. But on a space station, or starship boarding? Confined corridors? A well armoured, fast and skilled soldier with a blade could be just as dangerous, if not more so, than someone with a gun.
Not saying it would be a standard thing, but to say that 'modern soldier is to sword as tank is to horse' is the wrong analogy. Cyber Knight shock infantry could well go with archaic traditions and suchlike, but with the right gear and training, they'd be mildly scary.
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Not saying it would be a standard thing, but to say that 'modern soldier is to sword as tank is to horse' is the wrong analogy.
Ehm No.... is actually the one line which I have search for.....
Totally forget about my comment here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3230.msg49408#msg49408)... this link (here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8qpiWplo-w#t=18m55s), 18:55)... I agree it looks awesome and the Schah had taste....
As economist I must say it is just waste scarce resources. If I was the Schah... I would do this too... and some Donald Trump palace... etc... but dont sell it as something what can actually fight an army... (or you will end up like the poor polnish cavelary soldier, which had to fight the german tanks).
If there was a place for sword fights in modern warfare....WE WOULD SEE IT... belive me. That we dont see them is the sign that maybe a axiom is in work; or two, or more... what you think?... (I know, I know... so positivistic to make laws based on reality :P)
So overall swords can be from use.... BUT are they better as other options?.... Dont forget we life in reality... in a world of opportunity costs [like I said on pic 3.. just land with an imperor on the monster (imagine a cartoony landing where the ship destroys the monster like a small bug)].
Edit: Or see it that way: During my school time was it so, that one week before the summer vactions started; that all grades were already made. So turing the last week we had other things to do; for example a chess seminar, tracks and field and so on... my favourite was a memory competition (and yes I was bad in it). But was I have learned in it was: That the technic how you memorize stuff is very importent, and that it has almost its own darwinistic rules... (like tanks in WW2)... they develop very fast and you have -- like I said about the army -- to be up to date.
Example: See here (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/376566/march-07-2011/joshua-foer). P.S. I would love to have those classes ingame.
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When I was messing around with a cyber knight character, I did have thoughts mixing both european and asian standards of knights, though I probably ended up adding to much ninja in the mix. She eventually came out as some sort of nobility in that she had lands/holdings she had to take care of, and became a capsuleer to support that rather than becuase the ship was an extension of her cyber warrior status. She also uses a halbard/naginata (japanese influence), and while it is mostly cerimonial, she can use it to kill, she just needs to get in close (ninja influence, probably not a very good one). She would also have armor, which I figured would be tough enough to survive some modern weapons, but not in the modern battlefield. So again, functional, but mostly used in cerimony. Anyway, all of that was my own creation, just throwing things out.
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Regarding edged weapons, it depends entirely on the relative level of weapons vs armor we are talking about.
IE: Edged weapons are essentially useless nowadays (and in the future) for 90% of ground combat since infantry guns can perforate other infantry from range and safety.
Now IF we had a technological armor breakthrough where regular infantry weapons were no longer penetrating and killing other infantry so easily, and you combine that with super-fast and enhanced bionics, then you could imagine seeing much more of a 'space marine' with a chainsword for lack of a better reference.
This all begins to stretch credibility, but it's a line that can be explored perhaps! If regular infantry weapons aren't really scratching a cyberknight and they can run up and start bushido-blading people, then it starts making more 'sense'.
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I should hold my hand up as being ever so slightly hypocritical here. I've always had as Arnulf as a hobbyist martial artist. More as a mental focus tool and to keep his bodies in shape than in any expectation of using it in anger.
I just figure being an actual warrior knight (as opposed to the RL ones these days) is more about the code of conduct than what weapons you use. Still, I guess a suitable high-tech blade would make a useful hull breaching tool.
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... Gonna have to side with the "swords, wat?" side here. Focusing on melee in an age of devastating beam weapon and projectile fire is foolhardy in the extreme. Swords work well against guns in highly-stylized, typically anime-inspired settings. Eve is not this.
Kai Leng, incidentally, has earned a place as my least-favorite Mass Effect boss evar. He gets to be a viable boss fight for one reason and one reason only: he cheats, spending half to two-thirds of his screen time invulnerable and recharging, forcing you to repeat the same goddamn thirty seconds of gun v. sword again and again. Oh-- and he gets to pop the "I win" cut scene BECAUSE I land a sticky grenade at his ankles as he tries to enter recharge mode.
I decisively outmaneuver him, therefore he wins. Not. Freaking. Cricket.
In essence, he gets super-charged with plot immunity because the devs liked the idea of a cyber ninja boss fight spiced up with a dose of rivalry. Otherwise, cyber-ninja versus cyber-enhanced sniper assassin, to say nothing of a full commando squad? The word is "splat." He's lost before the fight begins, on weapon selection alone.
But he does look oh-so-cool.
I could see swords in a cavalry-charge situation for a speedy, sharp-edged "drive-by," but the age of automatic fire pretty much did for that tactic at the start of World War I. I could also see one as a badge of honor, a mark of status, especially if carrying one didn't slow an otherwise logically-armed cyberknight down significantly. That would relegate them to the status of backup weapon, though. And if you want to take the stealthy approach, a good, modern combat knife is a hell of a lot less noticeable when in use, not to mention easier to slit throats with.
Adding vibro or energy-discharge functions, diamond coating, or a freaking plasma sheathe may make them relevant-- just-- on a modern battlefield, but I tend to think that, even then, they're secondary or tertiary weapons.
Otherwise? Ceremonial use and formal duels. Application beyond that stretches credulity, a lot.
It's like Aria's martial arts short blades: pretty, flashy, impressive on their own limited terms, but also archaic.
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But swords are badass.
As are space knights.
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I just figure being an actual warrior knight (as opposed to the RL ones these days) is more about the code of conduct than what weapons you use.
I think it would be even more funnier to think about those things....
Like a code: Use your tradional weapon -- in your case sword -- as final "flourish" against the enemy. I would be some sort of symbol of respect for him.
Or use your tradional weapon -- in your case sword -- for officer duel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel). Like in this spot: Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMQnPWjK5pE#t=00m08s)
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I just figure being an actual warrior knight (as opposed to the RL ones these days) is more about the code of conduct than what weapons you use. Still, I guess a suitable high-tech blade would make a useful hull breaching tool.
I did part of the research once and if you figure out how to create a closed magnetic field, you could create a "blade" of plasma, basically a plasma cutter but with a longer "blade." Next best thing to a lightsaber, but it would eat fuel like crazy.
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If regular infantry weapons aren't really scratching a cyberknight and they can run up and start bushido-blading people, then it starts making more 'sense'.
This makes some sense, except that you'd need some kind of explanation for why you can't make a ranged weapon that does what the sword does. Most settings (anime, etc.) that try to do this use some form of energized matter-conversion, a blade-shaped reality distortion-- stuff like that.
... which generally fits under the heading of "transparent excuse for using swords," much like many an anime has had to come up with some out-there excuse for putting underage girls in cheesecake-ridden combat situations.
As a practical matter, in Eve, I just don't see it. DUST promo footage has given us no reason to think that infantry armor can just shrug off even small arms fire, and even if the armor were, say, five times as heavy....
"Woops. Sword! Cyberknight-- concentrate fire!"
Splat.
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If regular infantry weapons aren't really scratching a cyberknight and they can run up and start bushido-blading people, then it starts making more 'sense'.
This makes some sense, except that you'd need some kind of explanation for why you can't make a ranged weapon that does what the sword does. Most settings (anime, etc.) that try to do this use some form of energized matter-conversion, a blade-shamed reality distortion-- stuff like that.
... which generally fits under the heading of "transparent excuse for using swords," much like many an anime has had to come up with some out-there excuse for putting underage girls in cheesecake-ridden combat situations.
As a practical matter, in Eve, I just don't see it. DUST promo footage has given us no reason to think that infantry armor can just shrug off even small arms fire, and even if the armor were, say, five times as heavy....
"Woops. Sword! Cyberknight-- concentrate fire!"
Splat.
Correct. It's all about us resolving our 'practical' vs 'that looks cool as hell' battle within ourselves ;)
We all conduct some measure of 'suspension of disbelief' for all sci-fi worlds, as the 'real' would be far less sexy. We have to come close to the plausibility lines but not stare too closely or it all falls apart. 'Tis a delicate balance.
This is what gives us fun sci-fi space opera with lasers vs the more mundane reality that whichever civilization in New Eden got to space first would just fling a few asteroids at their enemies' home planets and wipe them out permanently.
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We all conduct some measure of 'suspension of disbelief' for all sci-fi worlds, as the 'real' would be far less sexy. We have to come close to the plausibility lines but not stare too closely or it all falls apart. 'Tis a delicate balance.
This is what gives us fun sci-fi space opera with lasers vs the more mundane reality that whichever civilization in New Eden got to space first would just fling a few asteroids at their enemies' home planets and wipe them out permanently.
Well-- yes. Assuming they were comfortable with genocide, which hardly anybody seems to be for any length of time.
One thing that furrows my brow about this kind of "aesthetics versus practicality" discussion is that it seems to me as though CCP resolved it decisively way before most of us started playing. Eve is heavily influenced by the "noir" side of sci fi, and Blade Runner has been named as a particular influence.
I therefore set my suspension of disbelief at "Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion = A-OK," but expect Decker to be out hunting replicants with a heavy pistol instead of a katana.
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We all conduct some measure of 'suspension of disbelief' for all sci-fi worlds, as the 'real' would be far less sexy. We have to come close to the plausibility lines but not stare too closely or it all falls apart. 'Tis a delicate balance.
This is what gives us fun sci-fi space opera with lasers vs the more mundane reality that whichever civilization in New Eden got to space first would just fling a few asteroids at their enemies' home planets and wipe them out permanently.
Well-- yes. Assuming they were comfortable with genocide, which hardly anybody seems to be for any length of time.
One thing that furrows my brow about this kind of "aesthetics versus practicality" discussion is that it seems to me as though CCP resolved it decisively way before most of us started playing. Eve is heavily influenced by the "noir" side of sci fi, and Blade Runner has been named as a particular influence.
I therefore set my suspension of disbelief at "Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion = A-OK," but expect Decker to be out hunting replicants with a heavy pistol instead of a katana.
Absolutely. But then again if the replicant shrugs off bullets since there's no internal organs to make him die and then squeezes dekard's head like a mellon, he might have wanted a blade... JK :)
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I will say I liked the way Ghost in the Shell series has handled these concepts, with a full-range of cyberization and abilities. Motoko and Batau on one end as high-end human infantry operatives, and the Yakuza giant-arm robots and plug-in suits on the other end of nastiness. A full range of hidden weaponry on human-appearing cyborgs, and a full range of advanced weaponry to take them out as well. What the show does portray is that regular humans are generally completely outmatched, if not always outgunned.
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How about personal shields, perhaps blades could be used in the same way as in Dune?
Shields deflect everything fast, but not a blade that approaches slowly...
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We could also use the DUST soldiers as a baseline - enormous strength, endurance, durability, etc, but still 'flesh'.
I imagine with full-on mechanical replacement parts the cyberknights would be quite a factor improved.
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Silas:
Agreed. Ghost in the Shell does cybernetics beautifully; I have no real objection to anything there, or further down the tech tree in some cases, being brought into Eve (so long as it's not the capsuleers playing the Major-- they are specialized for something else).
Lallara:
How about personal shields, perhaps blades could be used in the same way as in Dune?
Shields deflect everything fast, but not a blade that approaches slowly...
True, but Dune also came up with a good explanation for why you don't just solve that problem with a laser (which isn't so much fast as functionally instantaneous).
To wit, nuclear kaboom = bad for all concerned.
I think knives in DUST will probably have to do business with personal shields as well as armor, just like everything else.
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I think the cyberknights might also have a nice niche in the 'mech' area: small hard-wired suits larger than a human, but much smaller than a Caldari MTAC... Again similar in scale to the 'suits' worn in GITS. MTACs are walking around with heavy ordinance fighting tanks, etc. These suits are highly maneuverable, small enough to operate in human-sized indoor locations (corridors, bases), and can probably shrug off most small-arms fire.
= win.
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In seriousness, Silas, I think it's a mistake to assign the Knights to any specific niche.
Let's make a few assumptions.
(1) Cyberknights have no automatic advantages that no one else can possess.
(2) Cybernetic "kits" are easily customized, and may be designed for certain areas of focus at their core, but adapted for all manner of different roles through modular reconfiguration. This is in keeping with DUST's intended Eve-like fitting scheme.
(3) Quality of such kits, and modular add-ons, may vary.
(4) Cyberknights, as an order, have access to very high-end tech and training.
(5) The Kingdom has access to all the run-of-the-mill ground-pounders it needs. Cyberknights are emphatically not regular forces.
If we take the above as given, the likely role and the purpose of the Cyberknights becomes a bit more clear: probably, they are irregulars in the most interesting sense. Each knight trains heavily in some specific, and possibly unique, role, becoming a specialist in a particular area. They stand out from regular military or security forces both by the training and technical resources available to any given knight and by the freedom they have to set their own tactics and equipment.
An order of well-funded elite agents, sworn to a specific cause (defense of the Kingdom, perhaps from a specific group or specific type of threat, perhaps just in general, being the norm here), and whose loyalty is considered beyond question without solid evidence to the contrary, possessing capabilities and tactics that vary enormously from individual to individual, would be a titanic headache for any hostile organization to try to prepare for and defend against.
Of course, they're probably nearly as much of a headache to try to work with or around; probably the detectives and such of the Khanid Kingdom's finest are known to complain bitterly about certain bits of knightly mischief: "I'd been working on rounding up this ring of bastards for three years-- three years! Then this armored psychopath gets a bee up his backside, breaks up the crucial meeting before we can make the bust, shoots half the participants, and delivers my informant to my boss, trussed up on a plate like some kind of damned trophy!"
Having your loyalty be beyond question doesn't mean that all's fine and dandy with the rank and file, after all, and "knightly order" can start looking a lot like "well-equipped band of vigilantes" if they don't watch their step REAL carefully.
Edit:
Oh-- and the above might provide at least one reason for cyberknights to actually carry swords: initial identification of an otherwise-diverse organization at a glance. Of course, if that's so, carrying a sword in the Kingdom if you're NOT a cyberknight could very well be a serious crime, itself. Call it "impersonating a paladin." :D
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How about personal shields, perhaps blades could be used in the same way as in Dune?
Shields deflect everything fast, but not a blade that approaches slowly...
This is indeed what I have always thought would be the main thing that would allow for melee in EVE. There are already personal shields in EVE. If you look at some of the DUST 514 videos, like for the tourney they held for Fanfest, there are temporary, placeable shields that block all incoming fire for a short duration of time. They can be walked through, but not shot through by either side. Now, imagine you wore one of these devices on your armor. You cannot shoot any weapons out of the field it produces, but nobody can shoot into it for 5-10 seconds. This is why you wield a plasma cutter spear which you stab people to death with. Of course you have side arms for when your shields are not active, but I can see a cyber knight equipped in this manner being an extremely effective building-clearer. No need for messy EM shotguns or grenades, just flip the switch before you charge into a room and everyone gets face-banged by an unexpected and unconventional weapon system. This can also be rather intimidating, as seeing one of your comrades get shot is a bit different than seeing them impaled and gutted.
Another shield system I've thought about would be a lower-powered magnetic field shield. Many weapons in EVE are magnetic in nature, such as hybrid shots being propelled with magnetic pulses and laser weapons having a large amount of EM energy. A simple magnetic field with just enough energy to gently deflect and disperse these weapons would be extremely effective. Even metal bullets could be deflected this way if they were somehow given a magnetic charge mid-flight. The only drawback is that this also disrupts friendly weapons travelling through the defense field, hence why you would not be using the same weapons as the enemy.
Imagine it: a group of close-quarters armored troops advancing up a field under a hail of fire, every shot being diverted over and around them as though God Himself were intervening. The enemy begins to panic at the bizarre sight as they march steadily closer, phalanx style under their shield projectors. Even as the troops throw grenades, they end up being flung away to the sides of the formation, the flames of their magnetized plasma explosions simply blowing uselessly into the air. The troops are ordered to fall back from their cover, and that is when the knights charge. Vicious blades, halberds and spears glinting in the sun, or with their own armor-melting energy, propelled with cybernetic limbs that ensure the knights catch up with the fleeing soldiers. The fire-team is cut down in a flurry of screams and bloody limbs in a matter of seconds, much to the horror of other troops fighting nearby. Victory cries are shouted, wounded are finished off, heads are mounted on sticks, and the knights move towards a new target.
Yeah, it's something straight out of 40K, and I fully recognize the gimmicky-ness of it all. But I think it's totally possible. Again, I'm going off of both existing EVE technology and the well-known Amarrian penchant for doing things old-school whenever they can. Remember, these are people who still keep the Book of Records in a hand-written form, painstakingly written by scribes in beautiful calligraphy.
Khanid were famous for being the best infantrymen in all the Empire ever since their fuedal times. I think the Khanid would take enough pride in their traditions to try very hard to bring them to a real fight whenever they can. I mean spare-no-expense try hard. I believe cyber knights would be a very rare sight due to the costs involved with their implants, armor and weapons-systems, much like RL medieval knights. They'd be a warrior class funded by Holders who enjoy having a bit of asthetics and tradition with their war. Not all Holders would consider them cost-effective, but others would like having them around.
Then there's what Aria says, about variance:
In seriousness, Silas, I think it's a mistake to assign the Knights to any specific niche.
Let's make a few assumptions.
(1) Cyberknights have no automatic advantages that no one else can possess.
(2) Cybernetic "kits" are easily customized, and may be designed for certain areas of focus at their core, but adapted for all manner of different roles through modular reconfiguration. This is in keeping with DUST's intended Eve-like fitting scheme.
(3) Quality of such kits, and modular add-ons, may vary.
(4) Cyberknights, as an order, have access to very high-end tech and training.
(5) The Kingdom has access to all the run-of-the-mill ground-pounders it needs. Cyberknights are emphatically not regular forces.
If we take the above as given, the likely role and the purpose of the Cyberknights becomes a bit more clear: probably, they are irregulars in the most interesting sense. Each knight trains heavily in some specific, and possibly unique, role, becoming a specialist in a particular area. They stand out from regular military or security forces both by the training and technical resources available to any given knight and by the freedom they have to set their own tactics and equipment.
An order of well-funded elite agents, sworn to a specific cause (defense of the Kingdom, perhaps from a specific group or specific type of threat, perhaps just in general, being the norm here), and whose loyalty is considered beyond question without solid evidence to the contrary, possessing capabilities and tactics that vary enormously from individual to individual, would be a titanic headache for any hostile organization to try to prepare for and defend against.
Of course, they're probably nearly as much of a headache to try to work with or around; probably the detectives and such of the Khanid Kingdom's finest are known to complain bitterly about certain bits of knightly mischief: "I'd been working on rounding up this ring of bastards for three years-- three years! Then this armored psychopath gets a bee up his backside, breaks up the crucial meeting before we can make the bust, shoots half the participants, and delivers my informant to my boss, trussed up on a plate like some kind of damned trophy!"
Having your loyalty be beyond question doesn't mean that all's fine and dandy with the rank and file, after all, and "knightly order" can start looking a lot like "well-equipped band of vigilantes" if they don't watch their step REAL carefully.
Exactly some thoughts I've had too. Even if a cyberknight with fancy, pretty medival weapons is not viable, this situation certainly is. And the variance thing is also a huge deal; because they would be independently funded and be following varied schools of thought and warfare, you'd probably be hard pressed to find identical knights if they're not in the same order of specialists. One school favors speed and agility enhancments with occular implants to help them with their sniper laser rifles, while this other school favors strength implants so they can carry their tank-grade heavy weapons over the shoulder. These other ones look like a normal foot soldier squad, until you figure out they've been trained to mentally direct swarms of mini-drones to clear buildings. So much is possible it's mind-boggling.
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Great ideas. I think the point to support here is that the term can be applied 'generally' to a whole class of soldiers following many different houses and traditions.
Much like Eve's breadth of genres I feel just as likely to find a small team of cyberknights hunting down whatever Kingdom equivalent of the Yakuza are in Vezila, as we are to find House so-and-so's elite vanguard air-dropped into the center of a rival's HQ to level the place and send a message in the correct regal style ;)
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"This ship is my sword. My faith is my armor. Like my brothers and sisters before me, I go into battle in an exoskeleton of steel for which I have been adapted. Space is my battleground. My life is not my own, my service belongs to Holder and God. Let my enemies know fear for I am implacable. Khanid Victor!"
This makes me happy.
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I want to just add a quote to this 'thread of win'™
I was playing Space Marine yesterday (Okay okay, bear with me here)
In the mission where Titus distracts fire from the Inquisitor so they can reach the troopers HQ he rescues a bunch of soliders and the convo goes alot like this.
"My lord, we have you to thank for our lives!"
"I need no thanks trooper, I am an instrument of the Emperor's will now point me to the nearest concentration of orks"
etc etc.
Now, this wrang a bell with me for Cyberknights as it seems to be that we agree that they are basically nobility.
Thus, this idea of nobility + extremely dangerous combat (melee or not) makes me believe they would be used similar to Space Marines and command respect even of Generals and such due to their position in the Kingdom.
In regards to 'swords' Large Melee weapons in general, be they swords, axes or whatever I think make sense as a "ohshit its a cyberknight" thing and very rarely used in actual combat - due to the issues everyone has stated, it makes sense for them to be supreme marksmen and great force multipliers.
Just an idea I had now, what if a certain sect of them specialised in ground based e-war with say heavy pistols and a melee weapon. So use portable ecm-burst to scramble huds of troopers and close with pistol covering fire to nice and handy melee range but while maintaining the ability to put down solid ranged fire.
Cons of this is of course they get pinned down by ranged fire easily, so its not an i-win button and plays off the Kingdoms connection with the Caldari who favour force multipier tech, like ECM.
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Guns need ammunition, and ammunition is scarce on the battlefield. Much more important is the reloading/recharging bit. That, and combat in confined quarters might lead to situations where a longarm isn't ready or not of much use. Sidearms usually offer rather limited offensive capability, especially when facing body armor.
Melee weapons have distinct advantages in very limited scenarios. The effectiveness relies mainly on the setting. Medieval knights were so valuable because they could afford their costly suit of armors, which stopped most weapons. The arms race invented many devious and less devious weapons that were a threat to heavily armored combatants.
In the context of EVE's setting it's difficult to judge whether it's possible to produce and wear practical body armor that can reliably stop most SOTA projectiles (broadly speaking) or not. The Dust equipment seems to indicate that to some extent.
While Dust mercenaries can instantly clone and rejoin a battle, cyberknights might rely on heavy ( and expensive ) body augmentations that, for example, allows wearing much thicker and heavier body armor. There's bound to be a point where it's more economical to reclone and refit a DUSTer than to invest into maximum protection. After all the soldier doesn't care about dying, as long as he's equipped good enough to fulfill his objectives.
I'd view it more as a cross between Shadowrun and W40k, the whole cyberknighting business. The really important bit is, imho, how to play or use it in RP. If you're invincible, or almost invincible, you're doing it wrong.
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I'd view it more as a cross between Shadowrun and W40k, the whole cyberknighting business. The really important bit is, imho, how to play or use it in RP. If you're invincible, or almost invincible, you're doing it wrong.
Definitely, hence my little scenario showing that while hugely powerful given the right situation they have a big Achilles heel which can be exploited and countered.
And especially with a Capsuleer, like us, being we are creatures of Space I would likely see that if trained as a Cyberknight that while these lend extra abilities on the ground most of them would be for show and as a back-up while out of the Capsule and not a primary thing.
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I can see many ways a cyberknight would make an extremely deadly opponent. Fighting as frontline melee troopers isn't one of those.
On the other hand I find it completely reasonable to assume that cyberknights train with swords and fight duels/tournaments against their peers.
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Guns need ammunition, and ammunition is scarce on the battlefield. Much more important is the reloading/recharging bit. That, and combat in confined quarters might lead to situations where a longarm isn't ready or not of much use. Sidearms usually offer rather limited offensive capability, especially when facing body armor.
The U.S. military isn't huge on bayonets these days, despite the limits on how much ammo a given soldier can carry-- possibly in part because a given soldier can carry a fair bit. And that's with modern weapons. As for close quarters, a semi-automatic shotgun tends to beat a sword, and can be loaded with all manner of entertaining things. And then you've got the SMG.
Flashbangs for eyes and ears, frag grenades for when everybody must die, door charges for flattening the armored dude in the hall AS you make your big entrance....
A piercing thrust has no advantage you don't get from a gun, only with a shorter reach. A slash bites in confined spaces unless you can ignore things like walls-- and if you can ignore things like walls, the walls can't ignore you and you're apt to end up with a building on your fool cranium.
Ah-- and a sword's wall punch capability is limited by the length of your arm. Not so an LMG or similar toy.
Nope. Not buying it.
The effectiveness relies mainly on the setting.
Now you're talking sense.
Medieval knights were so valuable because they could afford their costly suit of armors, which stopped most weapons. The arms race invented many devious and less devious weapons that were a threat to heavily armored combatants.
None of which were fully automatic.
Or semi, even.
In the context of EVE's setting it's difficult to judge whether it's possible to produce and wear practical body armor that can reliably stop most SOTA projectiles (broadly speaking) or not. The Dust equipment seems to indicate that to some extent.
In which respect, it indicates that armor is distinctly permeable.
While Dust mercenaries can instantly clone and rejoin a battle, cyberknights might rely on heavy ( and expensive ) body augmentations that, for example, allows wearing much thicker and heavier body armor.
Beg to differ. DUST soldiers wear powered exoskeletons, according to the dev blogs on weapons.
There's bound to be a point where it's more economical to reclone and refit a DUSTer than to invest into maximum protection. After all the soldier doesn't care about dying, as long as he's equipped good enough to fulfill his objectives.
... which he is much less likely to do if he keeps dying.
I'd view it more as a cross between Shadowrun and W40k, the whole cyberknighting business.
I might consider the Shadowrun aspect (it's where I got the Dikote, TM, reference) but not at the expense of guns. Bear in mind also that Shadowrun's guns aren't too much more advanced than ours, smartlinks and flechette ammo aside.
Warhammer 40k, however? Nnnnnnno. That is a setting where badass technology has proliferated, then languished as people forgot the principles on which it worked. This is, IIRC, the setting explanation for why their guns are huge, permanently low on ammo, and do less damage than the little ones in real life.
Also, it's about as "noir" as an all-Valkyrie orchestra playing Wagner, with Thor on the cymbals.
As a genre, noir does many things, but over-the-top is not really one of them.
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BTW, an interesting, albeit inevitably flawed, education in firearms and their applicability to things like urban fighting:
S.T.A.L.K.E.R. is a series of games that seems to be basically written by and for survivalist gun nuts. I recommend it highly, especially (er, actually, exclusively-- Clear Sky sucked and I haven't played the last) the first one. Even if you crank the difficulty to make ammo a rare and precious find, you won't be getting much use out of your combat knife, I promise you.
When the bad guys have guns, you want a gun. When the bad guys do not have guns, you still want a gun. Trust me.
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People seem to forget what ended the age of the knight in the battlefield.
Co-operative tactics of pretty much unarmored foot soldiers.
They dismounted the knight and killed him by sticking a dagger through the eyeholes of the armor, killed him with a specialized weapon like Lucerne hammer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucerne_hammer) or just threw the knight in a fire.
Knights were efficient in warfare only for a certain time until the tactics caught up with them and made them pretty much useless.
One of the most recent example of a war between a nation that embraces knighthood and its traditions against a gun wielding nation for gamers is from Arcanum.
The knights got whooped.
As I said before, its more about the code than the gimmicks.
Being a knight that is.
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Yes and Yes and Yes... some other would add next to the evolution of the infantry... the longbows and the Battle of Crécy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cr%C3%A9cy)... and so many other things... like I said ...many laws are in work most likely. :(
And like I arleady said.... we can construct some environment where it can still life.... but before we say "Epic WIN"... one test is missing... like I said a world of opportunity cost.... is there still a better and ceaper way which gives a better outcome? (I know Im heartless about this, but how much I love the idea of cyperknights.... nevertheless..... I also think... that in the end just like I already said, a Dusty with some code/flaws, will most likely work the best.).
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I think swords fall under socially acceptable weapons. If you insist on having one, you are unlikely to get too many cases on battlefield to wield it. However as part of a uniform a sword should be much more acceptable, and fashionable, than bringing in an AK-4007 to the ball.
Outside terror tactics, I doubt there is little call to have cyber knights close in to do the job in close quarters. However if you are putting down a peasent(slave) revolt numerically outnumbered troops immune to most everything the revolutionaries have, combined with a dusk raid carving into the allready demoralized enemy ranks?
Should keep future revolts suppressed for sometime.
If you actually have to fight on even terms, then opt for warfare strategy and tactics. Using the cyber knights for tasks modernly assigned to elite specialists? For which in space to me, would seem to define capsuleers.
Editing moar stuff in:
When you absolutely do not want to lose troops for any reason, there is little benefit in a dustie over a cyber knight. For instance making sure your personal bodyguards are absolute terrors in any form of combat. From hand to hand and extending perhaps even into space ships. Because if you ever need them, you will be unlikely to have the time to wait for reinforcements or regroups.
And this is where a sword as a backup weapon is handy. If you can save the ammo or acquire a better weapon by using it.
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Editing moar stuff in:
When you absolutely do not want to lose troops for any reason, there is little benefit in a dustie over a cyber knight. For instance making sure your personal bodyguards are absolute terrors in any form of combat. From hand to hand and extending perhaps even into space ships. Because if you ever need them, you will be unlikely to have the time to wait for reinforcements or regroups.
I agree... but also think... that isnt what some people have in plan for the Cyperknight.... (the knight part is just to juciy. Being "just" a different version of infrantry is to some not the way... even when it is: "Captain awesome infrantry")...
By the way: I still think .. it is the code which makes the different in this case. And other thinks - even if the are loveable - are not (sorry).
P.S. Chell I also think... being just a 2.0 version of an bodyguard or some other type of infrantry is possible, but a HUGE BUT what I have seen so far is also not a way which people somehow like to take. So no Dusty 2.0 or Infrantry 2.0 :| which is sad and takes resources from the more important question: What/How would a code look like?
And this is where a sword as a backup weapon is handy. If you can save the ammo or acquire a better weapon by using it.
No.... before I take a sword with me... I take other stuff... (reality isnt like a game where you have 50 weapons which you can take with you).
So I would like I said look to the opportunity cost... and would most likely go with a "real handy" knifes, handgun... over to Electroshock weapon. I know needs ammo and power, but still if Im out of both... and I havent fuck up the enemy... it is a sign form reality "to get the fuck out and/or to get reinforcement. Like the Bodyguard... which isnt fighting like in the movies (I know damn reality).
So a Sword... is reallsy not a good choice (in a world of opportunity cost)... even when it looks awesome.
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lots
I agree on today's situation. However, non-rifle rounds ( shotguns included ) usually have problems dealing with bodyarmor. Since we're dealing with a fictional setting it is impossible to judge whether it's easier to protect or to inflict damage. It's hinted that body armors in EVE are far better - speaking relatively to the weapons they face - than what we've available now.
Anyways, ranged weapons are straight up preferable to any form of melee weapon right up to the point where you're out of ammo without someone covering you and something's just jumped at your throat. Besides, shooting into a melee is so much fun.
The usefulness depends highly on the setting. Shadowrun's melee weapons have a very high damage and an edge against armor but semi-automatic guns basically fire twice in the same time. Burst and full auto attacks level the playing field, especially when juicy ammo is loaded. Therefore: Charging down that street against the guy with an assault rifle is a very bad idea, as it should be, metahumans and magic aside.
I wouldn't focus so much on the sword bit, though. hand blades and so on are a thing as well. But that just adds to the points that melee combat isn't for frontline fighters.
However, when talking about cyberknights and the efficiency of swordplay one should keep in mind that it would be someone who's devoted his life to that stuff ( including the part: How to dodge bullets; moving; positioning in a fight stacked against him. ) fighting men and women who are far less trained. Take someone who's trained with firearms since he can walk against some madmen with a sword and it would probably end in a nice killshot followed by a badass comment.
Lastly, cyberknight does not necessarily imply using a sword. I'd say it is using extensive augmentations and training to excel in combat. That includes modern ( "Less civilized" ) combat with all the specialized roles, too. There might be a crack sniper that's implanted to heck with all sorts of useful devices.
On a second thought I think I was wrong about the Dust guys. They're very likely something extremely similar, which might lead to all kinds of interesting opinions from 'traditional' cyberknights.
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Just a quick note: To my understanding, Samurai carried around their swords all the time, for example, but battles were often won with the bow. I would imagine that a laser rifle isn't much different, and with Khanid practicality coming into play, the swords and axes and things are often just for show (though I have no doubt that they know how to use them, and use them well, and the weapons are entirely functional. Practicality, again.)
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I think Lallara is right in that the unique selling point of Cyberknights would be the honor code part. Whatever weapons they traditionally used they'd have had to change as warfare changed.
I can imagine that a lot of the tech that the Amarr used to develop the Templars came from Cyberknight innovations. After all, it's just the brain implant that's sleeper tech. The nanomesh healing, the artificial skeleton, the immense performance upgrades as well as armour systems may have come from the Khanid.
One can easily draw parallels to how the heavy armour and mounted weapons were the top-modern weapons systems of the medieval knights, and the only thing that saw the knights phased out was that they became too attached to their outdated technology. If we instead imagine a type of knight that would roll with technological advances as they came, always adopting the most groundbreaking warfare technology and - when it became available - jumping at the chance to improve his body (incidentally, this meshes well with my ideas that the Khanid may have had close ties to a more technologically advanced Takmahl society on Athra) we arrive at a type of warrior that must look very similar to the standard "elite" troops of New Eden.
The march of technology would have given plenty of avenues of technological exploration for the cyberknights, and as each knightly order would have been keen to find the most modern edge it's likely that you'd have divergent specializations at every level of technology. One order decides to master horseback combat, while another masters archery. Some orders master pistol and musket combat, while others delve into siege weapons. A few orders become trench stormers, while some others explore aerial combat. One order claims tank warfare, while another takes on the role of elite special force.
At the conclusion of each technological race, some technologies and strategies would go from being niche to being widespread as a few specialized orders surged to the head. At some point, that technology was the use of biological and cybernetic enhancement - and that day the cyberknights were born as a class unto themselves.
Today I'd imagine that the majority of cyberknights are expert footsoldiers, everything a DUST soldier is except the cloning (although I'd envision that a number of orders will jump at the chance of dust-ification) with various specializations (ship/station/space combat, hostile environments, urban combat, etc). Some would have specialized in niche technologies like MTACs (helped by TCMC interfaces) and spaceship combat (Capsuleer, non-capsuleer, fighter pilots...).
While the sword is a nice motif, and might make a nice sidearm, efforts to make it anything more than an elegant throwback to a less civilized age are weird and difficult to take seriously.
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I think Lallara is right in that the unique selling point of Cyberknights would be the honor code part.
I agree.... and It would be awesome to have something like this..... (and a real one,.. not just a copy & past from a wiki article, with a word change from "Knight" or "Ninja" to "Cyperknight".
So as addition to here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3230.msg49405#msg49405) or here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3230.msg49465#msg49465); How about:
Only people which are had (enter name)education, can call them self Cyperknight.
A Cyperknight cannt say no to a duell.
P.S. Just because I havent roast again a sword comment, doesnt mean Im sell on this idea. I still think that a sword isnt the point (and more a ritual/tradition thing, with almost no use):P
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People always think to knights. You can get inspiration from Samurais, too. Space bushido and the likes.
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People always think to knights. You can get inspiration from Samurais, too. Space bushido and the likes.
+This
This is EVE, so I imagine we'd take the best parts of both cultures, and blend them smoothly into a fine warrior-monk paste.
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People always think to knights. You can get inspiration from Samurais, too. Space bushido and the likes.
The Khanid are already much more 'space bushido' than 'knights templar' so this is a good direction. I think the name Cyber Knights just sounded cooler than 'cyber samurai' to the eve writers :P
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I'd expect the tradition to have just as much Amarrian influence as Khanid, and a good mix of both Khanid and True Amarrians practicing as cyber knights. Yes, a Khanid majority since it is their cultural hallmark, but remember not all (or even most) Khanid live in the Kingdom. Imperal cyber knights would probably be just as common as Kingdom ones.
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I don't know if any of you have ever read the Tales from the Ketty Jay series by Chris Wooding, but this discussion is reminding me strongly of a set of characters from those books: The Century Knights.
The Century Knights are basically an order made up of the best male and female warriors in the Kingdom. Each of them takes a single weapon, and specializes in it. This includes a woman with two short barreled shotguns, a man with a Gatling gun, and a man with a halberd. References are also made to men and women who use swords, pistols, axes, snipers, even bows and arrows.
These men and women are not 'heroes' nor do they have any particularly special abilities. They simply train every single day from childhood with their chosen weapon. They get very good. This allows a small team (usually of three) to take on much larger numbers. They have a code of honour, in that they are the King's personal 'strike team' and their only role is to protect the kingdom in any way possible, either by diplomacy or force.
I can imagine cyber knights to be something similar only sworn to their order or a noble instead of the kingdom as a whole. And of course stuffed full of implants :)
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People always think to knights. You can get inspiration from Samurais, too. Space bushido and the likes.
+This
This is EVE, so I imagine we'd take the best parts of both cultures, and blend them smoothly into a fine warrior-monk paste.
+1.... and this is the hard part. :( To get this beliveable.... As so far I would agree on:
- All Bloodlines (True Amarr, Khanid, Ni-Kuni, Ammatar, Udorians) can become Cyperknights. But like already said... with a big junk of Khanid (bloodline), because of their warrior past (and the Bloodline-Ancestry description).
- All three Amarr Factions (Empire, Kingdom, Mandate) have their Cyperknights.
- A Cyberknight is loyal to his House. No cults, sects etc... just manily Houses, with this limitation, we get an easy "hard" institution cut to the Zealots (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_%28bloodline%29#Zealots).
- You most have a certain education and code, before you can call yourself a Cyperknight
- Even if we "blend", between east and west; we can already say: There is conflict between tradition and modern technology. Like Silias already said:"Dichotomy of many Khanid in general: A fervent support of tradition, the past, and honor, while at the same time wholly embracing modern technology and a practical approach to problem solving." 1 (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3230.msg49441#msg49441)
- Cyberknights as it seems to be that they are basically nobility.
I also like Aria´s list (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3230.msg49483#msg49483)
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But in Amarr, science, technology and religion are the same. The point I was trying to arrive at is that if adoption of technology is traditional for the cyberknights there doesn't have to be a dichotomy or duality of knightly tradition and high technology. To us as players and readers it might come across that way, but from an in-character perspective there wouldn't be.
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But in Amarr, science, technology and religion are the same. The point I was trying to arrive at is that if adoption of technology is traditional for the cyberknights there doesn't have to be a dichotomy or duality of knightly tradition and high technology. To us as players and readers it might come across that way, but from an in-character perspective there wouldn't be.
Have I said something different?... For Knights (west) and Buschido (east) [even if there is a Tom Cruise move... :P Damn you Hollywoof for whore any topic... and have always a white lead] in their society and their time, they had almost the same view.....
Universial (catholic) view was everywhere, [before the first comes with Luther... he was later], and like you said about the amarrs... almost not to separate. Thats why in the Middelage... there was just three "studylines": Theology, Jurisprudence and Philosophie, and from the last one develop in central-europe.. the other studylines... like Medizin, History etc.... (add least the region where I life). But all this comes later....
About the east, I havent so much infos, to say that their was a conflict or not :cry:.
About use reader: Yes, I agree. It is something was always comes somewhere up; and you have to develop a way for youself (indiviual). Thats why I have write it down (to have a complete list).
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But in Amarr, science, technology and religion are the same. The point I was trying to arrive at is that if adoption of technology is traditional for the cyberknights there doesn't have to be a dichotomy or duality of knightly tradition and high technology. To us as players and readers it might come across that way, but from an in-character perspective there wouldn't be.
I think these issues are of particular concern for the Khanid and Cyberknights, as they (Khanid Kingdom) have been portrayed as quite different from the Empire in these particular issues. Technology and Religion might not be separate issues for the Amarr, but they are slow and ponderous to adapt and change. They way they've done things is 'the way it's always been done, and always will be' sort of mentality, as opposed to the Kingdom who have been forced to reconcile tradition vs practical matters of adapting a small nation-state to survive and thrive through embracing rapid technology changes, etc.
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But in Amarr, science, technology and religion are the same. The point I was trying to arrive at is that if adoption of technology is traditional for the cyberknights there doesn't have to be a dichotomy or duality of knightly tradition and high technology. To us as players and readers it might come across that way, but from an in-character perspective there wouldn't be.
The corp I ran before entering KotMC was centered around CyberKnights philosophies. We used that kind of mindset : science was the ultimate goal blended into some kind of religious fervour channeled into ethical dogmas, honour and a strong code of morals (something in the lines of the justicar's code of ME. "Samara compares the code and duties of the justicar to that of the knights-errant in Medieval Christendom, or the Japanese samurai." Fits new KotMC quite well by the way.
So anyway yes, it was very transhumanist, somewhere, I believe.
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But in Amarr, science, technology and religion are the same. The point I was trying to arrive at is that if adoption of technology is traditional for the cyberknights there doesn't have to be a dichotomy or duality of knightly tradition and high technology. To us as players and readers it might come across that way, but from an in-character perspective there wouldn't be.
I think these issues are of particular concern for the Khanid and Cyberknights, as they (Khanid Kingdom) have been portrayed as quite different from the Empire in these particular issues. Technology and Religion might not be separate issues for the Amarr, but they are slow and ponderous to adapt and change. They way they've done things is 'the way it's always been done, and always will be' sort of mentality, as opposed to the Kingdom who have been forced to reconcile tradition vs practical matters of adapting a small nation-state to survive and thrive through embracing rapid technology changes, etc.
+1 Affirm. I had actually also more the Reader and the Kingdom in mind. I also think it is less a problem for the Cyperknight as for the Zealots; last one are more/stronger religious orientated/motivated.
Cyperknight... How i understand arent directly reclaimers maybe?...
As for the middle ages... there are the "Teutonic Knights", Johanniter on Rhodos and some crusader states, which I would count more closer to the Zealots. As first Monks/Crusaders, than Knights.
For the Cyperknight maybe I would go -- like I said -- with alliances and loyalty to Houses, and less to cultes, sects etc... so Knights first, than Monks/Crusaders.
I know it is more a milky distinction, but it is one.
- All Bloodlines (True Amarr, Khanid, Ni-Kuni, Ammatar, Udorians) can become Cyperknights. But like already said... with a big junk of Khanid (bloodline), because of their warrior past (and the Bloodline-Ancestry description).
- All three Amarr Factions (Empire, Kingdom, Mandate) have their Cyperknights.
- A Cyberknight is loyal to his House. No cults, sects etc... just manily Houses, with this limitation, we get an easy "hard" institution cut to the Zealots (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_%28bloodline%29#Zealots).
- You most have a certain education and code, before you can call yourself a Cyperknight
- Cyberknights are first Knights, than Monks/Crusaders.
- Cyberknights as it seems to be that they are basically nobility.
- As for the Kingdom and moderen viewer/reader: Even if we (we in the meaning of the reader) "blend", between east and west; we can already say: There is conflict between tradition and modern technology. Like Silias already said:"Dichotomy of many Khanid (in the meaning of the Kingdom) in general: A fervent support of tradition, the past, and honor, while at the same time wholly embracing modern technology and a practical approach to problem solving." 1 (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3230.msg49441#msg49441)
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Please bear in mind here that while other denominations, IE the Empire and the Mandate may have something approaching Cyberknights i seriously doubt that they have any direct links to what we should specify as ACTUAL Cyberknights, ie the ones based in the Khanid Kingdom.
As has been stated here the Kingdom is the most flexible and adaptive of the three cultures and to me, the only one to make viable use of them as the others all ready have specialist infantry units, Kameira's and such.
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As has been stated here the Kingdom is the most flexible and adaptive of the three cultures and to me, the only one to make viable use of them as the others all ready have specialist infantry units, Kameira's and such.
Bearing in mind that my awareness of Amarrian PF is pretty poor, Kameira's seem to me to fill a different niche than the Cyberknights.
Kameira are (or seem to be) the brainwashed shock troops, they're of lesser value than Amarrian troops, so if you need them to charge across a minefield to achieve an objective, that's a loss of assets, but not a moral issue.
The thing (all my cultural baggage tells me) about cyber knights is that they can be trusted to do the right thing because they believe it's the right thing, not because they've been conditioned into blind obedience. This means you can give them a lot more tactical freedom and still trust them to get the job done; to do the things that are for the good of God and the Empress, even if it means their deaths.
That's potentially a very powerful tool.
(
This is assuming that there are "knights" in the Amarrian service who are actual believers, rather than cynical opportunists hiding their pedophilia behind a veneer of respectability...
(Incidentally, 85% through TEA and if I was playing an Amarrian character I would have thrown the kindle at the wall several times by now at how badly they got screwed by TonyG))
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Kameiras, iirc, are most some kind of amarrian variant of the Valklears. They are elite troops. Even more elite than the Valklear maybe, considering the indoctrination they get starting in their childhood. My bet is that they can surely be used as shocktroops when it is needed or to avoid too many casualties, but definitly not as meatshields, and rather as what were the SS in the WW2. Considering how the whole training of a single Kameira might cost, I highly doubt they are sent in the frontline to act as meatshields. For me it is kindof like the french legion (more elite though), they are sent in dirty places where nasty business has to be done to spare the regular troops, but they definitly are not second hand units either, quite the contrary.
I think that even if it is not specified in the PF (as much as I am aware of), the real amarrian meatshields troops are constituted of commoners or lesser bloodlines engaged in the navy/army. But somehow, most PF is centered around elite amarrian ground units, from cyberknights to kameiras, and elite counter boarding teams (and even the Dust soldiers in Templar One). We lack of info on their regular troops, but maybe the Amarr Empire actually does not use that many troops and heavily counts on elite units. Or maybe not.
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There seems to be several things:
Imperial Army Paladins: appear to be the front line infantry.
Kameiras: special forces, most valuable properties appear to be Loyalty and Unbreakability. Possibly the best choice against heretics such as the Covenant.
Cyberknights: special forces, most valuable property appears to be sheer Ability.
There also exists:
Penal battalions: construction and rear-area troops. from: http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3374&tid=8
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Kamerias would be really really good soldiers. Elite certainly.
However, they would make very poor special ops soldiers, at least the way most people understand the term.
In special ops forces, you need a strong sense of individuality, of individual initiative, and creativity. In short, the very things severe indoctrination takes from you.
They would be ideal to send into the most crucial and difficult objective of the battlefield. They would be terrible to send behind enemy lines or on covert missions.
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Kamerias would be really really good soldiers. Elite certainly.
However, they would make very poor special ops soldiers, at least the way most people understand the term.
In special ops forces, you need a strong sense of individuality, of individual initiative, and creativity. In short, the very things severe indoctrination takes from you.
They would be ideal to send into the most crucial and difficult objective of the battlefield. They would be terrible to send behind enemy lines or on covert missions.
like, Kameiras would be most useful to anchor a defensive line, and/or to spearhead an assault ? alongside regular forces ?
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Here's my main point on Cyberknights, is just a point about the (albeit meager) PF on what extent you can cybernetically enhance the human body in the EVE universe.
In The Burning Life, the characters mention that there is basically a maximum the human body can replace meat with metal, that the more you replace, the overall less effective the body becomes. The described it as a "rule" or some such. (Im at work, and dont have a copy of my book with me, I'll find the exact page if someone needs it)
In short, cybernetic enhancement is a yes, full on cyborg is a no.
Or at least, full on cyborgs exist, but they're more like mono-task servitors from 40K than Ghost in the Shell. In any of the Chronicles, the most ive seen a character modified is an Amarrian who has two cybernetic arms, and he's actually killed by a non-modified human.
While I know this contrary to a lot of player created fiction out there, and im sympathetic to that, I just wanted to point out where the PF is on this.
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Kamerias would be really really good soldiers. Elite certainly.
However, they would make very poor special ops soldiers, at least the way most people understand the term.
In special ops forces, you need a strong sense of individuality, of individual initiative, and creativity. In short, the very things severe indoctrination takes from you.
They would be ideal to send into the most crucial and difficult objective of the battlefield. They would be terrible to send behind enemy lines or on covert missions.
like, Kameiras would be most useful to anchor a defensive line, and/or to spearhead an assault ? alongside regular forces ?
Yes, exactly. Outstanding shock troops, told to take an objectives or to literally die trying.
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Cyber Knights:
Many of the Khanid want to keep their warriors competitive, but the only way to do so in the modern world is through extensive body enhancements. The advanced knowledge of cyber implants possessed by the Amarr has proven exceptionally useful in this regard. Some Khanid still aim to excel in physical combat, while the more progressive ones seek to become masters of modern warfare.
Those who excel in physical combat: The "Kai Leng"-type martial artist.
Those who become masters of modern warfare: Pod pilots and DUST mercenaries. Probably could extend this to hackers/EW specialists (Think modified Sansha tech to turn a human into a cybernetic firewall (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/True_Slave_Decryption_Node)).
You're welcome (http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=469526&page=1#2).
The Khanid Kingdom embraces technology, including cloning, much more willingly than the Amarr Empire. Even if most Amarr traditions and customs still exist within the kingdom, they’ve been modified so that Dark Amarr society is much more dynamic and robust than that of the Amarr Empire.
It's a big universe. Think it up, it might exist.
But somehow, most PF is centered around elite amarrian ground units, from cyberknights to kameiras, and elite counter boarding teams (and even the Dust soldiers in Templar One).
This is the case for all the Empires in PF. It's not an indication of the realities of the setting, it's simply that it's more glamorous to write about the special forces and elite units. The goal is to inspire the imagination.
Yes, exactly. Outstanding shock troops, told to take an objectives or to literally die trying.
You sir deserve a cookie!
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But somehow, most PF is centered around elite amarrian ground units, from cyberknights to kameiras, and elite counter boarding teams (and even the Dust soldiers in Templar One).
This is the case for all the Empires in PF. It's not an indication of the realities of the setting, it's simply that it's more glamorous to write about the special forces and elite units. The goal is to inspire the imagination.
The only thing I have seen for the gallente and caldari are mere marines. Ok, marines are probably not the average military joe, but they do not get the same attention either. For the minmatar, we have Valklears... And Valklears. My point was that in the Empire they have created a shitload of elite ground units. That does not mean they only rely on these (that would be stupid anyway), but this is why I asked myself the question. There is a lot of fluff around cyberknights, kameiras (they have a dedicated chronicle, like the Valklears), or ingame items like counter boarding units that are specified to be the best in New Eden, created by the Amarr before all other factions because they actually had foreseen ship to ship boarding right when they started to meet other factions. This, additionally to Templars (cf Templar One from what I gather), made me suppose - and only suppose, I do not state anything ! - that the Amarr seem to always be at the forefront of ground military doctrines and technology.
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The Amarr have so many 'specialist' ground forces due to the fact that the 'rank and file' could be seen as lower 'quality' than the rank and file of the other Empires.
So your average Caldari or Gallente or Matari foot soldier /marine is probably slightly "better" equipped and trained vs the average Imperial ground soldier, but the Empire has 10x the numbers at their disposal. They can literally (Imperial Guard 40k style), just throw thousands and thousands of troops at something until it breaks; they have 4 times the territory and planets an population to conscript from.
This means they would have a huge hole in military doctrine if they didn't dump considerable resources into these 'specialist' forces. I'd put it something like:
Average Imperial Soldier < Caldari/Matari/Gallente Soldier < Caldari/Matari/Gallente 'specialists' < Imperial 'Specialists'.
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I think of it as the Empire covering both the very low end and the very high end of the spectrum. Vast ranks of 'meh' general infantry but ridiculously expensive and rare 'elites' vs the other empires who have quite good general forces that tier up or down gradually.
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The Amarr have so many 'specialist' ground forces due to the fact that the 'rank and file' could be seen as lower 'quality' than the rank and file of the other Empires.
So your average Caldari or Gallente or Matari foot soldier /marine is probably slightly "better" equipped and trained vs the average Imperial ground soldier, but the Empire has 10x the numbers at their disposal. They can literally (Imperial Guard 40k style), just throw thousands and thousands of troops at something until it breaks; they have 4 times the territory and planets an population to conscript from.
This means they would have a huge hole in military doctrine if they didn't dump considerable resources into these 'specialist' forces. I'd put it something like:
Average Imperial Soldier < Caldari/Matari/Gallente Soldier < Caldari/Matari/Gallente 'specialists' < Imperial 'Specialists'.
This argument doesnt necessarily follow. The Russians in World War II followed a mass infantry attack doctrine much like the one youre describing, but they didnt really have to fill in the gaps with truly elite troops that we're markedly better than the Waffen SS for instance. They simply used more troops. "Quantity has a quality all its own".
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The Templars? Seems like they popped those out pretty smoothly and the implants were probably the only big new development.
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You're right with that not necessarily being reflected in our own history, but I think it makes sense for the Eve fiction, with the Amarr being so, so hierarchical, with an extremely steep 'pyramid' shaped society, I feel their military would be similar. The huge majority at the bottom get the bare minimum training, equipment, etc, and the tiny few elite at the top through birth or wealth are the ones going to officer or commando school with their holder families paying for their own personal implants and specialist equipment perhaps.
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The only thing I have seen for the gallente and caldari are mere marines. technology.
Maybe we try a very small list.... so that it is easier to to categorise ....
There seems to be several things:
Imperial Army Paladins: appear to be the front line infantry.
Kameiras: special forces, most valuable properties appear to be Loyalty and Unbreakability. Possibly the best choice against heretics such as the Covenant.
Cyberknights: special forces, most valuable property appears to be sheer Ability.
There also exists:
Penal battalions: construction and rear-area troops. from: http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3374&tid=8
Nice found Louella.
So now to the List:
Amarr:
Military:
- Penal battalions
- Paladins (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Paladins)
- Kameiras (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Kameiras_%28Chronicle%29)
- Templars/Templar One
Privat (House forces)
- Paladins (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Paladins)
- As for the royal Houses, of course the local Police forces/Navys/Customs. As example: Khanid Mashtori (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_Mashtori)
- Cyperknights (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_%28bloodline%29#Cyber_Knights)
Religious (Cults, sects, etc...)
- Paladins (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Paladins)
- Zealots (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_%28bloodline%29#Zealots)
As where is where?.... Kameiras are actually everywhere: Templar One, has a Kameira training facility in Hexandria (Khanid Kingdom) and the description of the Fort Kumar (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Fort_Kumar) said: "The Amarr allowed the kameiras to become Ammatar citizens after the war, earning their freedom by their extraordinary bravery and loyalty to the Empire." So I would say there are in the "three" (Empire, Mandate, Kingdom). So I think it isnt overambitious to say, that the others Paladins, Cyberknight, Zeolots... everywhere to find.
So for me the Cyperknights are in the "Military part of society"*. There they are a elite forces for their Houses. As Zeolots for their cults etc....
*All apove mention are part of the "Military part of society". I count for the "Political part of society": Religious Reclaimers (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/True_Amarr#Religious_Reclaimers), Khanid Unionist (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_Unionists) etc... so all groups with a polictical goal/agenda (but without direct mention as them as a military forces). That means they can be still Roleplay in that way (as military units), but they also have a direct "bloc" meaning.
You're right with that not necessarily being reflected in our own history, but I think it makes sense for the Eve fiction, with the Amarr being so, so hierarchical, with an extremely steep 'pyramid' shaped society, I feel their military would be similar.
Sorry off topic: I work currently on the Khanid King page (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_King), if someone has to add something, it would be welcome. It can be really anything, Im on a death end right now.
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Publius - a little of topic but you seem to mention the Mashtori in your things briefly - to clarify somewhat here is something I wrote for them a while back now, its out of date but the content is pretty much solid from a Fan-Fiction point of view.
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1074.msg12294#msg12294 (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1074.msg12294#msg12294)
The only editing I need to do is change the ARMA. References (now retired corp) to TR-VA (Trinity's Vanguard https://gate.eveonline.com/Corporation/Trinity's%20Vanguard (https://gate.eveonline.com/Corporation/Trinity's%20Vanguard)) Which is my current corp and has a bit of info in its description
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Amarr Counter-boarding Company (http://http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amarr_Marine_Counter-Boarding_Company)
Found this too (http://http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Military_Units), but not full of info either.
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Publius - a little of topic but you seem to mention the Mashtori in your things briefly - to clarify somewhat here is something I wrote for them a while back now, its out of date but the content is pretty much solid from a Fan-Fiction point of view.
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1074.msg12294#msg12294 (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1074.msg12294#msg12294)
The only editing I need to do is change the ARMA. References (now retired corp) to TR-VA (Trinity's Vanguard https://gate.eveonline.com/Corporation/Trinity's%20Vanguard (https://gate.eveonline.com/Corporation/Trinity's%20Vanguard)) Which is my current corp and has a bit of info in its description
Nice work Mathra -- or Math´ra -- if you like you can add more infos to the NPC page, I have just like I mention in the talk page (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Talk:Dakos_Khanid) just found some mission infos. :(
Amarr Counter-boarding Company (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amarr_Marine_Counter-Boarding_Company)
Found this too (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Military_Units), but not full of info either.
Oh yes... thx.. I have also miss some others.... like Mariens etc..... Amarr Trade Goods (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Category:Amarr_Trade_Goods).
P.S I change the links, they should work now.
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The interesting issue that rose was how much you can enhance a person until it turns into a hindrance.
Increased strength, the limit is the strength of your bones and the rest of your support mechanisms like tendons and ligaments.
Even with regular muscles the bones are the problem, if you use your body in a way that is not careful you will break bones. Doctors took a good look about the broken hips of elderly ladies, the fractures were not impact fractures, but they came from the actual muscles breaking the hip even before the old lady hit the ground.
You could go around this by reinforcing the skeleton, but the problem comes getting something more durable than bone (some bones in the body deal with 500kgs worth of torsion several times on daily basis) into the mix. Also a major problem is direction of the force in the part that you are reinforcing, most human bones have to withstand several directions of forces at the same time.
Nanites reinforcing the bone itself by king it more durable would probably be the key here.
Increased speed, exactly the same problems.
Increased reflexes, this is a tricky one.
Most of the human muscles that deal with reflexes are actually slowly acting 'slow' muscles that never tire. Difference between a fast conditioned response and a reflex are the set of muscles that you use. I think the faster conditioned responses part would be the one that would be enhanced. You would have the same problems as with increased strength here, but additionally you would have to face a lot higher momentary forces directed to the skeletal system. Also tissue damage from the sheer speed to the blood vessels and the nervous system itself would become an issue at some point.
One major thing would be that the subject would need increased awareness in the tactical sense and in the kinaesthetic system, proprioception especially which would mean a complete overhaul of the nervous system and a lengthy timeframe to actually familiarize with it.
If these would be replaced with automated systems, then the subject would be more of a robot than a cybered individual.
I think that the upper limit in efficiency of a cybered individual will not be the technology, but the actual training to be able to use the technology.
I think that the cyber knights can use more extreme modifications because they have the training and the tenacity to actually learn how to use it.
We would be looking at a time frame of dozens of years of training to be able to be a superhuman cyber knight instead of a few years training to become a specialist.
Of course this viewpoint is based on the concept that a cybered individual will have biofeedback coming from the enhancements and would need to learn to use that in a way that would be better than of an unenhanced individual. To get the enhanced biofeedback used on a level that is comparable to regular biofeedback is a feat in itself, but to get more precise biofeedback and to learn to use it more precisely than the regular version is closer to art.
You do not master something like that in a day, or a lifetime.
This worldview would pretty much negate changing bodies or getting augmented at the drop of a hat.
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This seems like an excellent occasion to mention a heavily augmented character from my ancient, moldy fiction: Inquisitor Doradus.
Since Istvaan was an unassuming businessman, he needed someone to break heads for him. At the time, Endless Corporation under Istvaan's charge was collaborating with Sabaoth Inc., a Sarumite corporation in the Amarr empire. Endless provided the Amarr with high-technology, and the Amarr would provide us with a work force. The Inquisitor program was an extension of Amarr human endurance experiments taken over by the Caldari to see how they could be weaponized. Anyway, enough back story:
Shameless story snippet follows:
“How long has he been in that icebox?” Farrad queried, running a finger across the pale blue skin of the spider-like man. He found it jarring and unpleasant to the touch, like the underbelly of an eel. He could not explain why, but his discomfort and anxiety was growing in magnitudes.
“Three, four years now… it has been a time, now that you mention it.”
“Four years and you expect him to wake up?”, Farrad cooed curiously. He had gleaned a wealth of knowledge on the myriad subjects pertaining to cryogenics in his colourful years at the Caduceus. “You realize his cell walls are most likely torn to shit? Probably irrecoverable, you’re going to have to clone him. Ice crystals form in the -“
His sentence incomplete largely in part to the bizarrely elongated arm which silently shot up to his neck and seized his windpipe like some manner of nightmarish many-jointed vise, the terrified Farrad found himself suddenly lifted a few inches from the ground. His eyes bulging and watering, he looked down at the atrophied-looking arm, and watched in horror as just beneath that clammy skin, there coiled and writhed what looked to be serpentine fiber bundles. His frantic gurgling and struggling alerted the Caldari, who quickly jogged back to the table and leaned down close to the Inquisitor’s ear.
“Doradus, stand down. This is Istvaan.”
Fighting himself free of the slackening grip, Farrad tumbled backwards falling back into the mound of stasis gel. His heart pounded and he felt the blood rushing behind his reddened eyes. “What the fuck! What the fuck! What is he!”
“Resilient, for one. Note how he didn’t need a warm-up cycle? It’ll take him a few hours to come to his senses yet, but basic motor control is up and running already. Luckily for you, basic comprehension as well.”
Gathering himself but still clearly shaken, Farrad rubbed his throat tenderly, the garish impression of the Inquisitor’s fingers clearly visible upon it. “I’ve never seen anything like that. I have also never been this afraid! I fucking think it’s high time you dropped the ‘mysterious enlightened manipulator’ act and told me what’s what, sugarplum!”
Shogaatsu nodded slightly. Having nearly gotten his companion killed, the least he could do was explain. “As mentioned above, the good Inquisitor was part of an internal corporate police force. He was also a personal guard, and I dare say somewhat of a friend. In the days of Endless Corporation’s runaway expansion, our ranks filled with pilots whose undesirable tendencies - some criminal, some behavioural - had to be kept in check.”
Farrad stood motionless, transfixed by the sudden heaving of the outstretched giant’s chest as he expelled a few cups of blue gel through his mouth and nose, and took his first rasping breath in four years.
“Doradus is what you would no doubt refer to as a total swap-job. Few of his internal organs are his own, his bones are ceramic-infiltrated composite lattice, and most of his musculature consists of artificial fiber; boosted senses by means of some really advanced cranials, and a few other bells and whistles… for example, the anxiety you now undoubtedly feel is a direct result of modified apocrine glands which secrete large amounts of engineered fear pheromones - don’t worry, you grow accustomed to those rather quickly.”
“So he’s a bloody turbocharged scarecrow?” Farrad howled, a hint of incredulousness peeking through his wary expression.
“Scarecrow, enforcer, fixer, you name it. Who said nothing good comes of slavery.”
Farrad cocked an eyebrow. “I don’t follow?”
Istvaan placed a hand on the Inquisitor’s chest, and smiled approvingly as he felt the wraith-like man draw breath. “The technology used in modifying Heraeus - that’s his first name, by the way - is borne of Amarr human endurance experiments. The roots of his being lie in their attempts to make a slave work-force better able to endure harsh environments; we merely weaponized it, first in the commando units of the Endless Corporation navy, and then in a perfected form - the Inquisitors.”
So yeah, like lallara said, when thinking about body modifications to specific bodily systems, you have to take into account how those systems will interact with their meatframe. Synthetic muscles would have to be paired with synthetic bones, lest one tear itself off the other.
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Very, very distantly related (from the most-recent dev blog):
Uncle Sansha says "hi":
(http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/62846/1/sansha.jpg)
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72880 (http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72880)
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Hey Isty, when are you going to re-acquire the rights to Endless?
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I imagine Makkal's cybornetics are similar in aesthetic to those in Deus Ex: Human Revolution.
(http://singularityhub.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/deus-ex-cyborg.jpg)
(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/210/d/7/deus_ex__human_revolution_by_ericaleev-d421xb8.png)
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This thread has played out oddly. I've seen Ghost in the Shell, Shadowrun, Blade Runner and noir name-dropped, but everyone is kinda circling around the connecting thread. So, I guess I'll say that word:
Cyberpunk.
And while I'm at it, I'll add a couple more:
Street Samurai.
Razor Girl.
And, hell, Urban Jungle.
Seems to me that the Khanid Kingdom is occupying the other side of the Sansha's Nation coin in a few ways. There's a lot of high-tech people seeking the bleeding-edge of advancement, and a lot of very cheap life out there too. And a huge, nebulous, somewhat 'dark' (see what I did there?) underbelly to the whole thing, where power and money and people change hands.
Cyberknights are the people who have devoted themselves to physical enhancement, via cybernetic implantation, in the pursuit of martial capability. They're the corporate assassin wired to the gills who can dodge bullets, the punk down the street with knives under his fingernails and the armed forces elite who can literally claim that his assault rifle is an extension of his body. They might organize into orders, or military divisions, or house guards. Or they might be lone wolves with the money and connections to keep themselves one upgrade ahead of the competition. Or just the lowlife down the street who ripped a cool implant out of his rival's head and is hoping the antibiotics don't give out.
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I've always thought that EVE fit in with the Cyberpunk/transhumanism genres of Science-Fiction.
For sword-wielding? It may be of good use for assassinations, and maybe dueling for sport. I am not so sure about on the open-battlefield. This isn't Warhammer 40,000. They're fighting corporations and other humans. Ballistic weapons are the mainstray but I would imagine that perhaps somewhere out in New Eden there is a tribal people on some backwater jungle world wielding blades and bows.
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When Valkyrie drops I am considering making a Khanid character. I already have a few ideas personality-wise how I want to make him, but I was hoping I could pick some of your minds about how a Cyber Knight would fare as a fighter pilot as opposed to a capsuleer or immortal mercenary.
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would make a lot of sense really. Cyberimplants to control blood flow during high-G manouvering and so on.
integrated eye-camera for look-at+target system, instead of a more cumbersome helmet-camera, etc.
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(Lord, I can't believe I typed "Cyber Night". Hands, why must you fail me when I type?)
Those are some solid ideas. Maybe they'd even have cybernetic appendages that could increase reaction time at the flight controls.
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This thread has played out oddly. I've seen Ghost in the Shell, Shadowrun, Blade Runner and noir name-dropped, but everyone is kinda circling around the connecting thread. So, I guess I'll say that word:
Cyberpunk.
And while I'm at it, I'll add a couple more:
Street Samurai.
Razor Girl.
And, hell, Urban Jungle.
Seems to me that the Khanid Kingdom is occupying the other side of the Sansha's Nation coin in a few ways. There's a lot of high-tech people seeking the bleeding-edge of advancement, and a lot of very cheap life out there too. And a huge, nebulous, somewhat 'dark' (see what I did there?) underbelly to the whole thing, where power and money and people change hands.
Cyberknights are the people who have devoted themselves to physical enhancement, via cybernetic implantation, in the pursuit of martial capability. They're the corporate assassin wired to the gills who can dodge bullets, the punk down the street with knives under his fingernails and the armed forces elite who can literally claim that his assault rifle is an extension of his body. They might organize into orders, or military divisions, or house guards. Or they might be lone wolves with the money and connections to keep themselves one upgrade ahead of the competition. Or just the lowlife down the street who ripped a cool implant out of his rival's head and is hoping the antibiotics don't give out.
I like everything you've written.
The nice thing about EVE is that the PF is big enough for all of these ideas. All of the regions have many planets, and many populated cities with millions of people, and many stories to tell.
I think it is an imaginary world where maybe on some city you do have a Motoko Kusanagi running around and then on the great pyramid of Khanid II's royal palace you've got some very scary 'old school' cyberknights with proper house armor on who have been guarding so-and-so for 400 years and will just as soon chop you in half as look at you.