Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Victoria Stecker on 10 Jun 2011, 12:55
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So, we were having this discussion last night and I figured I'd bring it up here and see what we can pull together.
Based on the Vitoc Method article on the wiki (which may be considered PF given that the primary contributor is CCP Dropbear) it looks like there are fears regarding a mutation of Vitoxin that could travel between clones, but the general, run-of-the-mill virus isn't going to do so.
Anyways, is there any further PF talking about why a person couldn't be cured of Vitoc infection by cloning?
IMPORTANT NOTE: Vitoc is an important part of several people's RP and I don't want this to get anywhere near UR DOIN IT RONG. It is, after all, a big cluster and an occasionally mutating virus that is probably going to impact people differently.
We simply ran into a blank when trying to explain why you can't just scrap your body, have a new one grown from a clean, uninfected cell, etc. To me, it seems that the cloning issue was player-created for the sake of RP which would otherwise be circumvented by "You're a capsuleer now, just get a new body."
Thoughts? And if possible, PF sources to back them up?
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Just a quick reply, without deep research. In the way I understood it, Vitoxin does change the victims DNA. While clones are basically blanks created from biomass, there is the part of the brain transfer and customization.
At the time of purchase, the customer undergoes a thorough examination and several tissue samples are taken. This is then used to construct a clone of the customer – a clone that receives the consciousness of the original at the moment of death, granting a new life.
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The biomass is used to construct a functioning body. This body is complete in every sense, with fully functioning organs and peripheral neural system.[...] The immune system of the donor is crippled and the thymus is removed and replaced with implanted cells from the customer. The clone body will thus not reject any implant – this makes it possible to seed the body with stem cells from the customer. The clone’s body cells divide very slowly, allowing the new cells to take over in time.
Interesting part includes the bolded and following sentences.
As far as the real transfer goes:
Clones are never bred with an intact brain as this is obviously very much dictated by the client. Once a clone is bought a thorough brain scan is made of the client to determine the shape of the brain and the placement of nerve cell nuclei. Then a three dimensional gel structure that matches the shape of the client's brain is constructed.
The conclusion would be that you can use clones you prepared prior to an infection as well as think about using your brain and a complete new body, although there is (besides the thrice damned broker in a certain novel) no hint in the PF regarding that possibility.
Another thing would be the psychological addiction, if there is any, which would still be relevant with a new body.
Sources:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cloning_%28Chronicle%29 (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cloning_%28Chronicle%29)
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Capsule_and_the_Clone (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Capsule_and_the_Clone)
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The conclusions I reached when it came up semi-recently were comparable to Desiderya's. Any clone based off post-infection samples would be 'tainted' and subject to the infection; any clone using pre-infection samples would be fine. As an extension, the likelihood of capsuleers having a sample of genetic material taken when they first enter training seems pretty high, as does that said sample would be under some of the heaviest security restrictions in the universe, lest vitoxin or whatever else start messing with their DNA. (If the damage was done prior to becoming a capsuleer, that's a different matter.)
As regards psychological addiction, it's my understanding that the vitoc itself could be injected without any serious adverse affects and still satisfy said addiction without the presence of vitoxin. Could be entirely wrong there, though.
Edit: Erp, as regards sources, take Desiderya's and add in this article. (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vitoxin)
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EDIT: Fuuuu, Kyber and Desi got there while I was writing my post and basically covered what I was saying. Guess I'll put a condensed version up instead...
tl;dr -
- A clone-transmissible version of the Vitoxin exists.
- It is all but unknown "in the wild"; billions of Vitoxin infected slaves have not produced a significant share with this mutation.
- The only reasonable way to get it seems to be deliberate mutation in a lab, and this is more a case of "russian mutation roulette" than a reliable process.
- Once a body is infected by this form of Vitoxin, clones created using genetic stock from this body will be infected at well.
- "Clean" clones can be successfully created using genetic samples taken prior to the infection of a body.
- It is highly, highly unlikely that any of us would encounter this form of the Vitoxin.
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I pressumed the infection and or addiction resided in the consciousness, which is what is transfered during death to the new clone. no?
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I don't read the article above as saying that you must use any cells from the client, only that Cromeaux Inc. commonly does (http://www.eveonline.com/background/cloning/clon_02.asp).
I assume that it would perfectly possible to jump into a clean meat-puppet with a clean gel brain matrix and shuck off any genetic maladies, retroviruses, or what-have-you. It's part of what the informorph demi-godhood thing is about.
I'd be reluctant to say anything decisive about this, however, until we get the response we've requested to the questions raised by Elsebeth Rhiannon's compilation on cloning.
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As regards psychological addiction, it's my understanding that the vitoc itself could be injected without any serious adverse affects and still satisfy said addiction without the presence of vitoxin. Could be entirely wrong there, though.
My understanding from the Vitoc chronicle is that a person needs Vitoxin in their system in order to get the rush from the Vitoc antidote. From http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vitoc_%28Chronicle%29 ( emphasis added by me )
Another new feature is the very pleasurable side-effect created by the antidote: for the first few hours after injection the receiver gets a very powerful euphoric sensation - as long as he is affected by the toxic virus. Both these extra features have helped bind the slaves to the drug, and thus to their slave-masters.
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Edit: Erp, as regards sources, take Desiderya's and add in this article. (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vitoxin)
As a sideline, I think the Vitoxin article suggests that psychological attachment to the Vitoc high could be managed using a regime including MDMA/Ecstasy.
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Edit: Erp, as regards sources, take Desiderya's and add in this article. (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vitoxin)
As a sideline, I think the Vitoxin article suggests that psychological attachment to the Vitoc high could be managed using a regime including MDMA/Ecstasy.
<Corners the market on glowsticks in the Republic, waits for massive profit>
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Let's get some Sebiestor DJs up in here for a party, then.
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Alright, so we've established that if you're infected prior to becoming a capsuleer, your original body is tainted, and you can't clone into a new body since the DNA used to make the new body is tainted.
However, why does your own DNA need to be used. We know clonejacks are a thing. Why can't non-identical DNA be used and just have the body sculpted to look like your old one? (which is what I thought was done anyway)
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Part the first: speculation
Alright, so we've established that if you're infected prior to becoming a capsuleer, your original body is tainted, and you can't clone into a new body since the DNA used to make the new body is tainted.
I'm not sure that we have, especially given your following paragraph. (And technically, even if true, you could do it, but the new body would also have the addiction.)
Also, "Future Science" and genetech: even if you can't clean a "natural" sample well enough to use it reliably, what about building one from scratch? Get yourself gene-sequenced, have the sequence analysed for changes brought about by the Vitoxin, fix those changes in the genemap, and then build that sequence from scratch.
However, why does your own DNA need to be used. We know clonejacks are a thing. Why can't non-identical DNA be used and just have the body sculpted to look like your old one? (which is what I thought was done anyway)
I'm not aware of anything saying that a clone must carry your DNA. We know that one clone company usually does that, but even their description doesn't seem to say it's necessary.
Part the second: fact
In October 2010, Elsebeth Rhiannon did a literature search and compilation of all PF relating to cloning (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1400998).
CCP Dropbear responded to that. (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1380078&page=4#109)
I'm going to quote Elsebeth's response to Dropbear's response, because it still seems to be the most rational approach:
Current CCP stance
CCP Dropbear was awesome enough to take a look at this and comment on his chronicle thread (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1380078&page=4#109). Current CCP stance is that they do not know how cloning works exactly and what things are possible. They are working on deciding and clarifying.
Until then, I personally recommend against making explicit RP that relies on specifics of cloning. When the clarification arrives, someone will have to retcon, and the less we have to, the better. Everyone can do what they like, obviously.
(Please note that you cannot rationalize this advice away with "surely they will not change it", because they do not currently think it works the way you have played it, regardless of your current take. They simply do not have a definite opinion. Similarly, kindly do not try and convince me you have figured it out and know the truth. If a CCP storydev tells me they don't know, then no, you don't know either. Yes, this paragraph is based on actual events.)
So, with regret, I'm pretty much going to ignore vitoc-addicted podder clone plotlines. OOC, I think they're arbitrary -- we don't know enough that independent groups could extrapolate the same basic things -- and doomed to retconning. IC, Mata thinks the addicts have made the choice to retain their ancestral lines and pay the price in addiction, rather than building uncontaminated flesh but clearly severing their contact with their kin. Or they just don't have good enough genetechs.
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Alright, so we've established that if you're infected prior to becoming a capsuleer, your original body is tainted, and you can't clone into a new body since the DNA used to make the new body is tainted.
Only with that specific incredibly rare strain of vitoxin.
An interesting thread, I have been having similar musings lately w.r.t. capsuleer-sponsored/controlled cloning of freed slaves... it seems to me this should work for both vitoxin and TCMCs at least if the group control cloning facilities such as in a Titan, Rorqual, or nullsec outpost. Obviously it's not practicable for non-capsuleer groups who can't match our resources.
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iirc, in the broker's case it was that the 'digital copy' of his clone data and DNA was taken after infection, so all clones made from said data were infected. not sure why each one was expiring faster, but as dropbear says, cloning tech is a bit wtf? still...
not sure if it would be transferrable to anyone who was not infected pre-clone.. as they could theoretically jump to a clean one and incinerate the infected body.
though that has been said a lot. :P
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However, why does your own DNA need to be used. We know clonejacks are a thing. Why can't non-identical DNA be used and just have the body sculpted to look like your old one? (which is what I thought was done anyway)
The cloning article states the way Cromeux Inc. handles their clone manufacturing. I wouldn't go so far and limit it to "only they do it that way" since it is a rather convincing argument why they need customer DNA, although it is, of course, possible that there are solutions so far in the future we can't think but only dream of. ;)
Their clones come without an immune system as a necessity of the process. It is generated on the basis of the customers stem cells, a process which should* be necessary, since the new grown brain is a 1:1 copy of the old one, which means that they have the same surface cell epitopes fitting to the old immune system. The alternative seems ditching the idea of any sort of immune system, which would suck and provide a nice idea for rp or the usual "we gots nanites!" approach which will, of course, fix the whole problem.
I'd prefer the 'pre-infection clone works" approach, since it gives plenty of creative opportunities to deal with the situation in any of the two (Cure, no cure) ways. Although the idea of a severe psychological addiction is interesting, since it is not too far fetched, that someone will get a relapse once he's in a new, clean body.
*I'm neither a physician nor a full blown biologist, so maybe there's someone around with a more profound understanding of the matter at hand ( immune system <-> cell surface epitopes <-> autoimmune reaction )
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Their clones come without an immune system as a necessity of the process. It is generated on the basis of the customers stem cells, a process which should* be necessary, since the new grown brain is a 1:1 copy of the old one, which means that they have the same surface cell epitopes fitting to the old immune system.
Actually the brain is an immune privileged (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_privilege) tissue partly due to the blood-brain barrier. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood-brain_barrier)
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Thanks, I knew I forgot something.
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Our knowledge of how viruses work is 21st century stuffs. In the future with the cloning and spacecars and sex robots and quantum physics, there's bound to be more ways to make viruses nasty. I see no reason there couldn't be clone-resistant vitoxin nastyness.
Brain scans could copy brain cells that are carrying/producing toxins, or something.
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Our knowledge of how viruses work is 21st century stuffs. In the future with the cloning and spacecars and sex robots and quantum physics, there's bound to be more ways to make viruses nasty. I see no reason there couldn't be clone-resistant vitoxin nastyness.
Brain scans could copy brain cells that are carrying/producing toxins, or something.
This, really. I don't see PF saying it's clone-resistant, but nor do I see any that says it isn't.
An engineered infection would most likely have been adapted to cloning tech by now...
If it wasn't, the insane amounts of resources going into Insorum would probably have been less.
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No future-sci-fi tech needed. Retroviruses would indeed be transmitted between clones if the sample cell(s) used to create the clones from had the viral DNA integrated in the genome. e.g. if a person infected with HIV were cloned from a cell harbouring the viral genes then the clone would have the disease.
Of course, why they don't (or wouldn't) have effective treatments for retroviruses in EVE PF is another matter.
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Borza, you seem to be assuming that your clones (meat puppets) are clones (genetic duplicates).
While you could infect a meat-puppet with the diseases and genetic peculiarities of some other tissue sample -- and we know that one cloning company routinely does -- we don't currently have an indication that it's necessary to do so.
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Borza, you seem to be assuming that your clones (meat puppets) are clones (genetic duplicates).
While you could infect a meat-puppet with the diseases and genetic peculiarities of some other tissue sample -- and we know that one cloning company routinely does -- we don't currently have an indication that it's necessary to do so.
I'm not assuming anything. If you read my post carefully you'll see that I used the word "if". I'm saying that even given current scientific knowledge there are a range of circumstances under which diseases could readily be passed on to a clone at a genetic level. There are other circumstances when this could not happen and cloning methodologies which could prevent it.
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If the virus were combinant with a prion...
Just had a scary thought. It's a virus? Like real viruses, it mutates. It mutates so much, that scientists have a hard time keeping up with it right?
So what happens when it mutates into a more standard example of a bloodborne pathogen? What happens if it mutates into something airborne? Basic epidemiology would suggest that not only should this be possible, but eventual.
So what happens if a terrorist decides to not wait for nature and starts developing his own strains of Vitoxin? "If the unabomber had been a biologist instead..."
Then consider how many people travel how many light years in a given week to how many different worlds. How many stations or planets have decontamination as a part of the docking proceedure? How many have lax practices due to greed, malfeasance or apathy?
"If those things get loose, it's gonna make the Lacerta Plague look like a fucking square dance!" -Annalee Call, Alien Resurrection. 8)
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Sinjin: the virus is specially engineered to only mutate in specific programmed ways. It took some massive particle bombardment to get it to mutate at all, and then the resulting virus was so far from the initial vitoxin it couldn't be used in research.
Also, Vitoxin has a very short incubation period, barely 48 hours at most, before the subject needs to be on vitoc before they start suffering things like organ failure. A virus with that short of an incubatory period will never spread very far. It would burn like a wildfire across one station, but before it could really spread to other stations, that station would be quarantined, the virus is rather overt and obvious. Its not insidious. A truly horrifying virus would have a gestation period of weeks the longer you can be infected by it, and have it be infectous, without noticing, the more people you can spread it to. That's part of the reason HIV is so nasty. Its symptoms don't manifest right away, they take weeks, sometimes months, to be correctly diagnosed.
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Hrm. I guess we don’t have any really solid PF on the subject. Bugger.
Anyhow, my thoughts on the subject. Note that these are based on a modern understanding of what a virus is and how it works. Any and all of it might go out the window due to things working a little differently in EVE.
In the process of reproducing, viruses destroy the host cell. This then spits out more little viruses that go after the adjacent cells, infecting them, altering them to make more virus, and then killing them to release the newly manufactured baddies. Generally, what makes you sick is this ongoing cell death. What makes a virus dangerous depends on which cells specifically in the body that it attacks.
What this means for Vitoc: Yes, viruses alter the genetic makeup of the infected cell in order to make more virus. However, they don’t automatically change the genetic makeup of every cell in your body – only the ones which have been infected. By the time the virus has reproduced enough times to infect all those billions (trillions?) of cells in the body, it should have killed enough of them that you’re dead anyways.
Therefore, it should be possible, even in the most extreme cases of vitoxin infection and vitoc dependence, to find at least a handful of uninfected cells in the body from which to make a clone. Now, this doesn’t do any good for the psychological dependence upon vitoc (apparently it’s a hell of a high) which in turn requires vitoxin infection to be effective, leading to some potentially really fucked up cases of people being freed from vitoxin only to be voluntarily infected again so they can get their vitoc fix.
Again, that’s based on the rather detailed description of Vitoxin as a virus and the way viruses work. They don’t infect every single cell in the body – you’re dead long before that can occur. But this is EVE, so who knows? Not even CCP.
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It totally depends if vitoxin works like the HIV positive but dormant form of the virus, or if the vitoxin actually eventually end to infect ALL the cells of the bodies after a certain amount of time (for people under vitoc). The latter sounds possible to me if you start to feed the infected people with vitoc treatment : either it stops the infection from spreading, leading to case 1, or either it just neutralize it for a bit but does not stop it from spreading, leading to case 2.
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Hey, that Vitoxin article is pretty sweet. And it's sister article the Vitoxin Cure as well.
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Personally I believe that the scientific or medical authorities are not sure exactly how the mechanism works that allows the capsuleers to avoid mindlock.
Therefore any kind of tampering of the individual (including extensive bodymods through cybernetics and genetic modifications) is avoided.
Of course with people that are not capsuleers the restrictions are lifted, because the scientists nor the medical people have any need to be careful about anything. Someone has enough money to turn their body into an inside out vagina then let them, someone wants their clone to look like the non-trademarked holovid star, they will do it.
Problem for me personally with extensive modification of a person is their self image, how they perceive themselves and how it will affect that persons psyche in short term and long term.
So in short, avoiding Vitoxin through transferring your brains into a meatpuppet that has 'generic' DNA that is not infected is fine and dandy for a baseliner, but not for a capsuleer.
Broker is a baseliner, so is the guy whose clone was stolen as means of trying an identity theft in the chrons. So was the Holder who was going to be transferred to the body of his son.
Capsuleers are a rarity, even most of the canon characters might not be actual capsuleers, even though they are treated as such. They may be in capsules while they are in their ships, using it as a interface to help control the ship, to keep them safe from death when the ship is destroyed, but their brains are not part of the hardware of the ship itself.
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There is a certain book written by TonyG that actually mentions that at least some of the Broker's meat puppets had capsuleer implants (such as the one that went to the Armor Forge, or the one that posed as Admiral Noir). Therefore, the Broker is either capsule compatible or can otherwise avoid the mind lock. Though most of his tech is pretty close to magic anyway.
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I have always played under the assumption that if one were infected with the disease prior to clone data being stored, the person's clones will suffer from the ailment; Avlynka was infected with Vitoxin more than 10 years prior to become a capsuleer, so the disease had plenty of time to thoroughly spread itself through her body prior to any DNA sample being taken.
It's a part of the character, but really, a rather small one; she takes her dose and refrains from flying for a few hours. She dosent do it to get high, nor as an excuse to try and kill every Amarrian she meets. It is a character hook, and one I am quite sure everyone who knows me will agree, isnt one I "shove" into relevance in RP channels. Yeah, some odd RP storylines pop up from time to time involving people and Vitoxin... meh, it's their RP. No stranger than some of the other stuff people cook up from time to time.
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Yeah, some odd RP storylines pop up from time to time involving people and Vitoxin...
You're giving me that look.