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[Nicoletta Mithra]

So, you have heared that after the snowden thing last year and the US listening into Chancellor Merkels handy, there have been now found two people apparently spying on the german government for the US intelligence services. Germany reacted with asking the top US intelligence officer to leave, US/German relations are frosted.

(If you haven't, I think this BBC news report covers it pretty well.)

The question here is, how do you people (especially from the US) see this? Do you care at all, do you think the German government overreacts?

[Morwen Lagann]

I think anyone who expects countries not to spy on each other regardless of relations is a complete moron. This happens everywhere, and the only reason any noise is being made about it is because people got caught doing it.

Frankly, I would be surprised if Germany's government truthfully didn't know about most of this shit and wasn't partly using Snowden's "revelations" as an excuse to act indignant for the sake of the populace.

I would also be quite surprised if Germany didn't have its own spies over here. Let's face it: politicians are liars by profession. They can say "we aren't doing X" all they want, but it has no bearing on whether or not they actually are doing X.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I think anyone who expects countries not to spy on each other regardless of relations is a complete moron. This happens everywhere, and the only reason any noise is being made about it is because people got caught doing it.

Maybe true: But does that mean that if you get catched the party you offended shouldn't/has no right to complain in your opinion?

Also, if Germany has spies in the US, they certainly seem to do a better job in not getting caught.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Most US citizens, myself included, don't care if our government spies on other governments. Hell, most of us think it's a smart idea. Even allied countries can become enemy countries at the turn of regime or even simple policy change. It's happened before, and it can/is/will happen again. Not spying on other countries is tantamount to willful ignorance.

The only thing US citizens honestly care about is how much our own government spies on us. There are lines that have been crossed, and we are angry about that. But do we mind Germany being spied on? No, of course not.

Also, if Germany has spies in the US, they certainly seem to do a better job in not getting caught.

Yes, they do, but Germany doesn't have a whistleblower pointing us in the right direction of where to find them.

[Desiderya]

Well, it'd be (and in the case of spying on the german government is) a big waste of money. But with political channels open to russia and industry interests in the middle-east we're basically terrorists anyways. And also on the verge of transforming into a surveillance-happy fascist police state with the next few elections, with all that nice army gear we give out to our cops. Wait, I think I'm mixing a few bits something up.

[Vincent Pryce]

surveillance-happy fascist police state with the next few elections, with all that nice army gear we give out to our cops.

Well sign me up, but you fuckers better get it right this time. Don't wanna have to burn Lapland. Again.

PS. No attacking Russia during the winter this time, k?

PPS. I think you are being sarcastic about US aren't you... No fun ._.

PPPS. Waiting for 4th reich, with 100% less genocide this time.

PPPPS. But with even more stylish uniforms.

PPPPPS. And with spaceships and lasers and shit.

[Dessau]

Well, it'd be (and in the case of spying on the german government is) a big waste of money. But with political channels open to russia and industry interests in the middle-east we're basically terrorists anyways. And also on the verge of transforming into a surveillance-happy fascist police state with the next few elections, with all that nice army gear we give out to our cops. Wait, I think I'm mixing a few bits something up.

Nope, I'd say you have a fairly firm grasp of the situation.

[Drakolus]

SOMEONE has to make sure ze Germans are not hogging all the FREEDUM. 

On a more serious note though, the whole X doesn't spy on Y is total BS.  Everyone wants to know everything about everyone else.  Nation states are literally worse in character and actions than the most inane of high school drama-llamas. 

In this case, the Germans can use this "offense" to score political points on the US and potentially get some diplomatic concessions.  That is until some other offense can be drummed up to send it back the other way.  Maybe the US will take offense to the 7-1 drubbing of the Brazilian team, call Germany poor sports and try and score some points back that way?  Who knows.

[Esna Pitoojee]

I am under the impression - which I am not sure is totally accurate, but have seen it described this way a few times - that spying on nominal allies commonplace, and when such agents are discovered by the nations they are spying on they are quietly removed, prosecuted, and returned to their home countries. The reason this has become international news is the manner in which the story was broken.

Assuming this is accurate, the embarrassment for us remains that we have such poor security that stuff like this continues to leak, rather than being able to behave ourselves quietly and professionally like most other countries.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Also, if Germany has spies in the US, they certainly seem to do a better job in not getting caught.

Yes, they do, but Germany doesn't have a whistleblower pointing us in the right direction of where to find them.

One more reason why the German intelligence service does an apparently better job, no? Whistleblowers should be avoided in the spying business.

[Laurentis Thiesant]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-18/australia-spied-on-indonesian-president-leaked-documents-reveal/5098860

It happens. No one is going to try and fuck up important security and economic relationships because of it, especially in the case of Germany and the United States.

[Vikarion]

Also, if Germany has spies in the US, they certainly seem to do a better job in not getting caught.

Yes, they do, but Germany doesn't have a whistleblower pointing us in the right direction of where to find them.

One more reason why the German intelligence service does an apparently better job, no? Whistleblowers should be avoided in the spying business.

I'd be, if not the first, certainly in the line to descry some of the things my country gets up to, if only because they hurt me. But as for spying? Well, the sort of person who finds the U.S. spying to be somehow immoral seems to me to be rather naive. Everyone spies on everyone. It's not just to find out things that others don't want you to know, it's also to make sure that what they are telling you is true.

Oddly enough, when we found ten Russian spies in the U.S. a couple years ago, no one seemed to think anything of it. When the U.S. does it, of course, only then is it "wrong".

It happens so often now that it's just standard. Expel some people, whine piteously about how "we are supposed to be friends", and then try to get something while hoping they never find yours.

[Lyn Farel]

As long as they use that as an excuse to blow that dystopic free trade transatlantic agreement out of the sky AGAIN, i'm perfectly happy.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Vikarion, the US and Russia aren't supposedly friends. Germany and the US is another story. With the words of Obama who told the German audience: peace and progress "require allies who will listen to each other, learn from each other and, most of all, trust each other."

Guess he meant 'listen to each other' and 'learn from each other' not the way a German would understand 'trust each other'.

[orange]

The below is not meant as an excuse, but as a description of how it may work.  I have no actual insight into the matter.  It is all hypothesis.

I do not think the US and Germany have systematic spying programs on each other.  Like the US-UK, there is significant cross-talk at numerous levels of government between the two nations on a myriad of topics at numerous classification levels.

Put another way, I do not think the US policy is "Spy on Germany," which I think it is for Russia, China, etc.

I think the NSA was/is listening/collecting intelligence on everybody.

I think the German counter-espionage is very good.  German has lots of practice thanks to the Cold War.

I think that US intelligence agencies have the task of figuring out how much Snowden has without revealing possibly unleaked details.  It is hard to have cross-talk about details you do not wish to divulge.  Telling the Germans you know that Radicals A are planning an attack on Target 1, how you did it is another (especially if it causes diplomatic issues).

I think the US intelligence operations in Germany probably have a budget closely linked to Cold War vs present day needs.  When you need to spy on East German, the Soviet Union, and the rest of the Warsaw Pact activities from West Berlin, you get a big budget.  I would not be surprised if a lot of the US intelligence infrastructure in Germany is linked to those out-of-date missions. 

In a resource rich situation, 25,000 Euros is a drop in the bucket, especially when it likely achieves the desire goal.

I doubt the low-level operational detail that has become the scandal was briefed to the President ahead of time.

Vikarion, the US and Russia aren't supposedly friends. Germany and the US is another story. With the words of Obama who told the German audience: peace and progress "require allies who will listen to each other, learn from each other and, most of all, trust each other."

Guess he meant 'listen to each other' and 'learn from each other' not the way a German would understand 'trust each other'.

Pro-tip: President Obama is very good at telling people what they want to hear.  He is also never just speaking to the audience in front of him.

Also, the statement is correct.  It is a question of who needs to work more at listening, learning, and trusting the other.