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General Discussion => The Speakeasy: OOG/Off-topic Discussion => Topic started by: BloodBird on 03 Sep 2014, 00:43
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I'm sick and tired of the slandering of the gaming community. We got our bad apples like everyone, but to behave as if the gaming community as a whole is a vile batch of scum and villainy is absurd and needs to end.
Please consider signing this if you agree. (https://www.change.org/p/the-gaming-industry-please-stop-the-hate#share)
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While sounding nice, this is far too vague a proposal to which affix my signature.
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I heard your signature counts double if you can say 'stop the hate' out of one corner of your mouth, and 'Anita Sarkeesian is a man-hater, con artist and professional victim' out the other without your teeth exploding from the strain.
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Considering the other more prevalent image problems gaming and gamers face outside the industry, par example; "murderer played gta v!" or "terrorist was avid WoW gamer, zomg!", this kinda way down the list of priorities for me.
Also, to an extent what shiori said.
Edit: this seems to have massively escalated and I seem to not know what the actual issue behind the petition is, so I'm pretty short half of the story.
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The only winning move is not to play.
No one that gets actually involved in any of these shitstorms achieves anything but a high blood pressure and being covered in shit, and inevitably spreading it further as they wheeze and hack up all they swallowed in the process. I think TB has been the only one to actually take a reasonable stance in these horseshit throwing contests and that just plonked him him right in the middle of no-man's land to take fecal barrages from every camp as reason and moderation seems to frighten and confuse every pillock in these "causes".
One side engages in spectacular displays of false flag bullshit to wrap themselves in more and more layers of victimhood, then the other side damn near justifies that sort of cynical and vile behaviour by actually acting like they're accused of being. Then someone conjures up enemies and bogeymen that never were involved by yelling "MRA! MRA!" because they know that'll win them the tumblrinas that promptly starts blubbering over their keyboards and nothing constructive can ever come out of being involved, at all.
Don't get involved. Don't take a side. Don't try to calm things down or you'll be the fucking enemy for not being plonked in one camp or another. Let the shitstorm run its course and just hope your own house isn't covered in shit by the time it's done.
And no, I'm not going to sign something about stopping the hate because I do hate almost everyone that's spoken publicly about this stuff, especially as gaming journalism has gone straight to shit after it first became a thing. Oh, and fuck Phil Fish right in the you know what I'll take my own advice and not even play.
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"We are asking indie developers, AAA developers, and other folks to stop branding gamers as neckbearded, misogynistic, hatefueled, ignorant, homophobic, idiots."
Someone hasn't played Call of Duty online. :lol:
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To:
The Gaming Industry
Please stop the hate targeting gamers. We're not all bad people.
Sincerely,
[Your name]
This is what they want to send? What does this even mean?
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If people think that this latest hashtag campaign called #GamerGate has anything to do with harassment and abuse of other people online, they may want to look at exactly what sparked off that behavior this time.
Yes, abuse and harassment of other people online is an issue that should be addressed and dealt with.
No, we should not be storming into the pitchfork and torch factories every fucking time some stereotypical neckbearded shitlord spouts off at someone in response to what is actually a legitimate problem. There are extremely valid grievances on both sides here, but to just focus on the harassment shit completely ignores the behavior that caused the latest surge in abusive behavior.
Of course, that's what certain high-profile people/groups are trying to make it about, but it isn't what started it. Shitty and corrupt journalism practices are what started it off. That some people responded to reports of it in an entirely inappropriate fashion is an entirely separate issue that should be dealt with on its own without detracting (or distracting) from the fact that journalism in the gaming industry (and, to be fair, many other industries) is full of corrupt and shitty behavior that ruins any illusion of "integrity" that may or may not have been present.
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I'm sick and tired of the slandering of the gaming community. We got our bad apples like everyone, but to behave as if the gaming community as a whole is a vile batch of scum and villainy is absurd and needs to end.
Please consider signing this if you agree. (https://www.change.org/p/the-gaming-industry-please-stop-the-hate#share)
The 'gaming community' has a horrible reputation for misogyny and immaturity for legitimate and well-earned reasons.
Your petition smells of butthurt at not acknowledging real problems in the "community." Smells of 'Not all men!'
I'll tell you what, if the next time I play a FPS on a console I'm not called a faggot nigger whore and 'teabagged' after being digitally shot by some idiot, I'll consider things improved.
Or the next time a woman posts some legit criticisms of the industry and doesn't receive hundreds of rape threats.
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realtalk tho, we are all bad people
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realtalk tho, we are all bad people
Hush friend, that's the nanites talking :P
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No we play or played EVE
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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While I agree that turning this particular issue into the singular point of "zomg gamers are teh evils" is completely retarded and not a little insulting, petitions like this don't tend to be terrifically helpful either. As others have said above (Morwen and Mizh) this isn't and shouldn't be about "online abuse"; there are far more legitimate and interesting issues to be discussed at the core of all this.
The best move is to sit tight and wait for things to die; someone with a reasonable head on their shoulders might pick it up and have an actual discussion eventually.
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While I agree that turning this particular issue into the singular point of "zomg gamers are teh evils" is completely retarded and not a little insulting, petitions like this don't tend to be terrifically helpful either. As others have said above (Morwen and Mizh) this isn't and shouldn't be about "online abuse"; there are far more legitimate and interesting issues to be discussed at the core of all this.
The best move is to sit tight and wait for things to die; someone with a reasonable head on their shoulders might pick it up and have an actual discussion eventually.
Why is it insulting?
It's not 'a few bad apples' its the pervasive and de facto status quo with regards to 'the culture' en masse. There's a reason women like to stay anonymous in online games, not using their microphones, playing under male names.
The issue is so one-sided I just have to laugh at all the "WE'RE NOT ALL BAD" arguments. Those arguments come from thin-skinned folks not admitting how ridiculous the treatment and depiction of women are in the industry.
No, you're not all bad, but participating and supporting status quo patriarchal systems without pushing for change means it doesn't change.
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Yes, as a gamer I definitely should get lumped in with the prepubescent fuckwits yelling profanity on a console. They are definitely representative of me and my demographic.
The fact that there are minorities (yes, they most definitely are minorities) in every bloody camp out there that takes shit too far is certainly something to consider but the ridiculously stupid hyperbole and raging on the internet does nothing but create more of them. Go on the attack and you'll create enemies. Take a moment, count to ten, have a wank or whatever, then try to empathize with people and you might actually get somewhere. Create conversation. Talk to people instead of attacking them and maybe you won't push them into the mindset that you're actually an enemy they have to fight.
The moment you label people and then go on attacking them, all you've achieved is creating animosity towards you and the point you're trying to make. They'll start doing the same in return and they'll consider themselves justified in doing so.
I have zero sympathy towards the self-victimization people crying about "gamers" as if we're some homogenous group of neckbeard rapist wannabes and while I'd actually sympathize and consider the real problems they pretend to represent, now I really can't be arsed to give a gift-wrapped shit about any of the issues because they went on the assault instead of communication. I'll instead continue doing my work as a board member of the regional humanist association, cooperating with feminist and men's rights advocates towards egalitarian goals. They at least recognize that communication between them brings them both closer to the ultimate goal and while they're opposite sides of the coin, both are better off balancing it on the edge instead of battling over which side the coin should fall on.
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Yes, as a gamer I definitely should get lumped in with the prepubescent fuckwits yelling profanity on a console. They are definitely representative of me and my demographic.
The fact that there are minorities (yes, they most definitely are minorities) in every bloody camp out there that takes shit too far is certainly something to consider but the ridiculously stupid hyperbole and raging on the internet does nothing but create more of them. Go on the attack and you'll create enemies. Take a moment, count to ten, have a wank or whatever, then try to empathize with people and you might actually get somewhere. Create conversation. Talk to people instead of attacking them and maybe you won't push them into the mindset that you're actually an enemy they have to fight.
The moment you label people and then go on attacking them, all you've achieved is creating animosity towards you and the point you're trying to make. They'll start doing the same in return and they'll consider themselves justified in doing so.
I have zero sympathy towards the self-victimization people crying about "gamers" as if we're some homogenous group of neckbeard rapist wannabes and while I'd actually sympathize and consider the real problems they pretend to represent, now I really can't be arsed to give a gift-wrapped shit about any of the issues because they went on the assault instead of communication. I'll instead continue doing my work as a board member of the regional humanist association, cooperating with feminist and men's rights advocates towards egalitarian goals. They at least recognize that communication between them brings them both closer to the ultimate goal and while they're opposite sides of the coin, both are better off balancing it on the edge instead of battling over which side the coin should fall on.
lol men's rights
:P
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The issue is so one-sided I just have to laugh at all the "WE'RE NOT ALL BAD" arguments. Those arguments come from thin-skinned folks not admitting how ridiculous the treatment and depiction of women are in the industry.
No, you're not all bad, but participating and supporting status quo patriarchal systems without pushing for change means it doesn't change.
This achieves nothing. You're creating enemies by conjuring up some grand "patriarchal system" that doesn't exist. You're not pushing for change by doing this, you're just labeling huge swathes of people and that will only turn them against you and what you're trying to achieve. Stirring up an even greater shitstorm will never get you anywhere because no one can see very far in one of those. Only as far as those who pronounce themselves your enemy.
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This achieves nothing. You're creating enemies by conjuring up some grand "patriarchal system" that doesn't exist.
If that's your opinion on the state of things there's not much else to say, really.
Please compare for me basic stats for:
average wages vs female wages 100% vs 70%
victims of sexual violence by gender
victims of domestic violence by gender
representation in government by gender. Women make more than 50% of population. Hint: House: 362 men 76 women Senate: 83 men 17 women
movies or games with women that can even pass a Bechdel test? 1%? 5%?
Please, in all seriousness, take a look at the world around you.
FYI: The Bechdel test asks if a work of fiction features at least two women, who talk to each other about something other than a man. 90% of movies out there do not pass this test, and that's sad.
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lol men's rights
:P
Yes, men's rights. It is an undeniable fact that men are discriminated against in certain aspects of society. Ever been in a custody battle? Divorce? Seen spousal abuse against a man be taken seriously by law enforcement? There are hundreds of issues in society where men are the underdogs and this is something worth working on. The thing is, this does nothing to hurt feminism. Quite the contrary.
Feminism and Men's Rights Activism is exactly the same, working towards a common goal which is equal rights and getting rid of discrimination based on gender. They are perfect allies, once you take a step back and employ a little empathy. Who better to improve the attitudes and viewpoints of the male side of society than men themselves? Who better to improve the attitudes and viewpoints of the female side of society than women? When the two communicate and work together, you can actually achieve something but when you go to the stupid extremes and consider the other to be enemies to be attacked, you gain nothing. All you do is create opposition where none existed to begin with.
You are in fact being a perfect example of the extremists on either side that are genuinely harming your own cause by dismissing or even attacking the very people who are in a position to either change themselves or their communities. What exactly are you gaining here, except more animosity?
Try to take a step back and employ some empathy. Maybe you'll see that there's worthwhile efforts on each side of the barriers.
If that's your opinion on the state of things there's not much else to say, really.
Please compare for me basic stats for:
average wages vs female wages 100% vs 70%
victims of sexual violence by gender
victims of domestic violence by gender
representation in government by gender. Women make more than 50% of population. Hint: House: 362 men 76 women Senate: 83 men 17 women
movies or games with women that can even pass a Bechdel test? 1%? 5%?
Please, in all seriousness, take a look at the world around you
No one's disregarding the feminist side of things here, Silas. There are issues to be resolved but you aren't resolving shit by attacking the very people you want to change. You're just making enemies out of them. I am well aware of how the world around me works, and I recognize that solving an issue requires cooperation. This requires communication. It requires creating allies and empathizing with everyone involved.
But yeah, no. Let's just yell "patriarchy" because that'll solve everything.
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Exactly what this kerfuffle is supposed to achieve, I'm not sure anyway. If there's any evidence of an actual scandal mixed in with all the screaming, nobody's deigned to tell me what it is. And it had better be the gaming equivalent of the Nixon tapes, for all the shit my Twitter timeline's stuffed with.
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Exactly what this kerfuffle is supposed to achieve, I'm not sure anyway. If there's any evidence of an actual scandal mixed in with all the screaming, nobody's deigned to tell me what it is. And it had better be the gaming equivalent of the Nixon tapes, for all the shit my Twitter timeline's stuffed with.
Don't even bother trying to untangle the mess. There was some legitimate issues regarding games journalism, corruption and false flag stuff going on, but then everything turned to a shitstorm the moment everyone picked a side and started throwing feces from their cages.
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Dug up this post (http://blueplz.blogspot.no/2014/08/this-game-supports-more-than-two-players.html) by Totalbiscuit. It's long and wordy, but it's worth reading as it touches quite well on the subject of nuance and extremes in these issues. Out of all of gaming media, it seems few are managing to keep a somewhat cool head. TB is one of the few solitary voices of reason left out there, it seems.
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Tell the MRA guys to ditch association with the Red Pill guys and we can start to talk about how they're working for equality
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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They're not associated with Red Pill. It's one of the subreddits that gets a ton of scorn from the MRA side of Reddit. What you shouldn't do, though, is equivocate subreddits with the actual movement. Most of the MRAs I deal with don't even use reddit, because the issues are in real life and the most effective means to deal with them are in real life.
Just like you can pretty much dismiss most of Tumblr and 4chan as noise clogging the signal, you can disregard most of what you see on reddit whichever sub you hang out in. The real efforts are done in real life by real organizations. My own, the Humanist Association here in Norway aren't officially connected with the real life organizations in either side of the camp but we still tend to be involved as egalitarianism and getting rid of discrimination is one of our primary goals, just like theirs are.
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lol men's rights
:P
Yes, men's rights. It is an undeniable fact that men are discriminated against in certain aspects of society. Ever been in a custody battle? Divorce? Seen spousal abuse against a man be taken seriously by law enforcement? There are hundreds of issues in society where men are the underdogs and this is something worth working on. The thing is, this does nothing to hurt feminism. Quite the contrary.
Feminism and Men's Rights Activism is exactly the same, working towards a common goal which is equal rights and getting rid of discrimination based on gender. They are perfect allies, once you take a step back and employ a little empathy. Who better to improve the attitudes and viewpoints of the male side of society than men themselves? Who better to improve the attitudes and viewpoints of the female side of society than women? When the two communicate and work together, you can actually achieve something but when you go to the stupid extremes and consider the other to be enemies to be attacked, you gain nothing. All you do is create opposition where none existed to begin with.
You are in fact being a perfect example of the extremists on either side that are genuinely harming your own cause by dismissing or even attacking the very people who are in a position to either change themselves or their communities. What exactly are you gaining here, except more animosity?
Try to take a step back and employ some empathy. Maybe you'll see that there's worthwhile efforts on each side of the barriers.
If that's your opinion on the state of things there's not much else to say, really.
Please compare for me basic stats for:
average wages vs female wages 100% vs 70%
victims of sexual violence by gender
victims of domestic violence by gender
representation in government by gender. Women make more than 50% of population. Hint: House: 362 men 76 women Senate: 83 men 17 women
movies or games with women that can even pass a Bechdel test? 1%? 5%?
Please, in all seriousness, take a look at the world around you
No one's disregarding the feminist side of things here, Silas. There are issues to be resolved but you aren't resolving shit by attacking the very people you want to change. You're just making enemies out of them. I am well aware of how the world around me works, and I recognize that solving an issue requires cooperation. This requires communication. It requires creating allies and empathizing with everyone involved.
But yeah, no. Let's just yell "patriarchy" because that'll solve everything.
I think "Men's Rights" is often missing the forest for the trees. Time and resources are often limited quantities, so many social justice activists feel it's a bit like spending advocacy for 1% of the problem. Yes it's still a problem, but For every male victim custody battle there's 1,000 wife beaters or rapists not being taken seriously. They/I feel it's more worthwhile to focus on the majority of where the harm is, where the majority of the inequality is.
And yes you do sometimes have to yell 'patriarchy' because honestly most people are blissfully unawares. The gaming community is as a whole atrocious with gender issues.
In the larger world the amount of harm and misery on one side of this outweighs the other by such staggering amounts that it seems almost cruel to focus on things like custody battles when women are getting their genitals mutilated by knives in Africa or can't even drive a car in Saudi Arabia without being arrested. Or have a bunch of white males making reproductive rights laws at the expense fo women. Extreme examples I know, but shit be real, yo.
I'm not trying to be alarmist but things like 'mens rights' actually seem to be rooted in more of a selfish lack of empathy. They often act like even acknowledging one group's inequality without inserting 'WE SUFFER TOO' is anathema.
It's just reminding me of the sometimes anti-racism arguments from white people "WE'RE NOT ALL RACISTS." Which is true, but you still benefit from a system of racial inequality in many ways.
Anyway good thread.
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@ Mizhara
I'd actually be interested to know more about gender stats in Norway, I have a feeling you all are probably much further along with regards to wages and representation in politics than here in the States. The nordic countries tend to (to my knowledge) do a much better job at societal homogenization of resources.
To add on to my earlier statement, I think in places where things start getting more equal it certainly makes more sense to spend more time on male issues.
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I am now obtusely and undefinably offended by all of you.
Heh.
Cute video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwJRFClybmk
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I am now obtusely and undefinably offended by all of you.
Heh.
Cute video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwJRFClybmk
Great video
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@Silas
I can't really directly link to such stats as most public documents on such things are in Norwegian, but general numbers still favor the male population. On average the monthly paycheck for women was approximately 86,5% of the average monthly paycheck for men in 2012 and the pay increase was about 3% for women and 3,5% for men. In the private sector things are turning the other way with women's paychecks growing at about 4% over the 3,2% of men.
The SSB (Statistic Central Bureau) also gives some numbers on... hrr, what would be the English/American equivalent? Small region government, bigger than a city but smaller than a full region/state, whatever. Let's call it county because I think that might be it. The female representatives in a County... council/government was about 38,2% in 2013. The amount of women with higher education was about 31,6% up from 30,7% the year before, and men had about 26% with higher education compared to 25,6% the year before.
82,9% of men between ages 20 and 66 were fully employed in 2013 and 76,8% of women between ages 20 and 66 were the same. The women and men in part-time employment were 34,5% and 13,7% of the population, respectively.
In the public sector, women composed over 70% of the employees while in the private sector they composed approximately 36,5%. This statistic is somewhat telling on the matter of payment differences, as the public sector generally pays less than the private sector, while providing a more stable and reliable career path.
With divorced/separated couples, the children tend to live with their mother in 86% of the cases, although the amount of men gaining custody seems to rise by about 0.2% each year. When the couple are generally of higher education, you'll see a higher amount of shared custody.
The actual numbers on the amount of stay-at-home fathers is hidden behind a paywall but they say it's risen significantly the last ten years or so. I can't find actual numbers at the moment.
Somewhat of an oddity, but it turns out the northern parts of Norway (the more rural areas as it were) scores far higher on equality issues than southern Norway. I can't find any speculations on why that is, but it actually surprised me a bit as the backwaters tend to be a bit more backwards than central areas. Hm.
I can't find a more recent number than 2012, but the percentage of our Storting (I suppose it's like your Senate) was 39,8% and it has steadily been moving closer to actual equal numbers every year that has passed.
My sources have largely been https://www.stortinget.no/ and www.ssb.no aaaaaand I just noticed there's English versions of these sites too. I could have just copypasted, bloody hell. Well, you can check the numbers for yourself if you wish, as it seems most of the articles are translated to English.
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I'm sick and tired of the slandering of the gaming community. We got our bad apples like everyone, but to behave as if the gaming community as a whole is a vile batch of scum and villainy is absurd and needs to end.
Please consider signing this if you agree. (https://www.change.org/p/the-gaming-industry-please-stop-the-hate#share)
The 'gaming community' has a horrible reputation for misogyny and immaturity for legitimate and well-earned reasons.
Your petition smells of butthurt at not acknowledging real problems in the "community." Smells of 'Not all men!'
I'll tell you what, if the next time I play a FPS on a console I'm not called a faggot nigger whore and 'teabagged' after being digitally shot by some idiot, I'll consider things improved.
Or the next time a woman posts some legit criticisms of the industry and doesn't receive hundreds of rape threats.
It's not my petition, but thanks for the notion regardless.
Thanks also for the notion that supposedly the shit-talkers and tea-baggers online represents us all, combatting that like of presumption was kind of the point though.
For the record, in PS2, that I game on a regular basis, I execute tea-baggers on my own faction on sight, and tell them in no unclear terms why this has been done. Believe it or not, but I agree with you 100% regarding that kind of juvenile behavior.
The only winning move is not to play.
No one that gets actually involved in any of these shitstorms achieves anything but a high blood pressure and being covered in shit, and inevitably spreading it further as they wheeze and hack up all they swallowed in the process. I think TB has been the only one to actually take a reasonable stance in these horseshit throwing contests and that just plonked him him right in the middle of no-man's land to take fecal barrages from every camp as reason and moderation seems to frighten and confuse every pillock in these "causes".
One side engages in spectacular displays of false flag bullshit to wrap themselves in more and more layers of victimhood, then the other side damn near justifies that sort of cynical and vile behaviour by actually acting like they're accused of being. Then someone conjures up enemies and bogeymen that never were involved by yelling "MRA! MRA!" because they know that'll win them the tumblrinas that promptly starts blubbering over their keyboards and nothing constructive can ever come out of being involved, at all.
Don't get involved. Don't take a side. Don't try to calm things down or you'll be the fucking enemy for not being plonked in one camp or another. Let the shitstorm run its course and just hope your own house isn't covered in shit by the time it's done.
And no, I'm not going to sign something about stopping the hate because I do hate almost everyone that's spoken publicly about this stuff, especially as gaming journalism has gone straight to shit after it first became a thing. Oh, and fuck Phil Fish right in the you know what I'll take my own advice and not even play.
Well I guess I know how you feel on this matter... yikes.
Sadly for me I'm not quite this jaded yet.
Yet.
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So, not much further along at all?
Anyway, I know "not all guy gamers are bad hurrrrr"
I don't need any of you guys to sign a petition for that.
Don't talk. Don't sign shit. Don't wave signs and protest. That shit never achieves anything.
Just keep your eyes opn to what it is you do versus what it is you were taught to do.
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So, not much further along at all?
Anyway, I know "not all guy gamers are bad hurrrrr"
I don't need any of you guys to sign a petition for that.
Don't talk. Don't sign shit. Don't wave signs and protest. That shit never achieves anything.
Just keep your eyes opn to what it is you do versus what it is you were taught to do.
qft
the petition is nice and all but it's just an attention-grab "i-i'm not b-bad i swear" thing. there are some really terribly shitty people out there doing stupid shit and let them burn themselves out, let the aggressive defenders do the same, sit back, shut up, play some EVE and maybe shoot some people on Counter-Strike or something
ps please stop being mean to people in video games for being women / children, shit's annoying
edit --
For the record, in PS2, that I game on a regular basis, I execute tea-baggers on my own faction on sight, and tell them in no unclear terms why this has been done. Believe it or not, but I agree with you 100% regarding that kind of juvenile behavior.
that doesnt seem like the best way to win people over let alone help your team win territory
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threads like this just remind me how much I am not a part of these "gaming communities", or any "online communities", because I have no idea what this is even about. I spend 60 hours or so a week at work, totally unconnected to the internet, and have no clue about any of this.
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@ Mizhara thank you for taking the time to write those statistics!
@ Bloodbird very interesting re shooting teabaggers
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Louella, its just RL gender inequality leaking into the internets.
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Yes, as a gamer I definitely should get lumped in with the prepubescent fuckwits yelling profanity on a console. They are definitely representative of me and my demographic.
The fact that there are minorities (yes, they most definitely are minorities) in every bloody camp out there that takes shit too far is certainly something to consider but the ridiculously stupid hyperbole and raging on the internet does nothing but create more of them. Go on the attack and you'll create enemies. Take a moment, count to ten, have a wank or whatever, then try to empathize with people and you might actually get somewhere. Create conversation. Talk to people instead of attacking them and maybe you won't push them into the mindset that you're actually an enemy they have to fight.
The moment you label people and then go on attacking them, all you've achieved is creating animosity towards you and the point you're trying to make. They'll start doing the same in return and they'll consider themselves justified in doing so.
I have zero sympathy towards the self-victimization people crying about "gamers" as if we're some homogenous group of neckbeard rapist wannabes and while I'd actually sympathize and consider the real problems they pretend to represent, now I really can't be arsed to give a gift-wrapped shit about any of the issues because they went on the assault instead of communication. I'll instead continue doing my work as a board member of the regional humanist association, cooperating with feminist and men's rights advocates towards egalitarian goals. They at least recognize that communication between them brings them both closer to the ultimate goal and while they're opposite sides of the coin, both are better off balancing it on the edge instead of battling over which side the coin should fall on.
Link me this site of yours plz, sounds like something I want to go see. If not in public then my mail-box will do.
This achieves nothing. You're creating enemies by conjuring up some grand "patriarchal system" that doesn't exist.
If that's your opinion on the state of things there's not much else to say, really.
Please compare for me basic stats for:
average wages vs female wages 100% vs 70%
victims of sexual violence by gender
victims of domestic violence by gender
representation in government by gender. Women make more than 50% of population. Hint: House: 362 men 76 women Senate: 83 men 17 women
movies or games with women that can even pass a Bechdel test? 1%? 5%?
Please, in all seriousness, take a look at the world around you.
FYI: The Bechdel test asks if a work of fiction features at least two women, who talk to each other about something other than a man. 90% of movies out there do not pass this test, and that's sad.
The only sad thing here is that you had to share this info about your own private religion, and that tells me more about you than I need to know.
This tread is not the place for it. Silas, if you want to ask these things in all seriousness, open a new tread and I will tell you what I think, as well as answer your questions - I should assume that answers is what you want when you ask them, after all.
Until you though this is as far as my contribution goes.
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If reality is religion than we're all very pious, or very atheist.
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What site? I didn't mention a site, as far as I know. And when did Silas mention religion? I can't find it anywhere.
Edit: Herpaderp, I just realized it was an attempt at equivocation. Nevermind. Bloodbird, the topic of gender inequality is very much involved in the topic at hand. This is why it's an issue that requires significant communication and outreach to each of the multiple sides of the debate, rather than any sort of bombastic statements. Please see the blogpost I linked further up in the thread for more on the matter of nuance here. It's a great read, if you have the time.
As for the organization, www.human.no would be the site for the Humanist organization I'm part of.
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1) YYour organization.
2) My orignal answer was gong to be "wat".
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And here's a piece of my personal story, handled well by someone else:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EkuXfsWmMo
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I'm going to just leave this here for all of you.......Enjoy
(http://i.imgur.com/v42m8Pj.png?1)
P.S. Many of these have been committed already in this thread.
[Sorry about the scale.]
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@ Bloodbird I think gender inequality is very much at the root of your discussion, it drives the criticism of that particular industry and also unfortunately drives the predictable responses.
If my religion is advocating for the marginalized in society then thank you I guess :)
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For the record, in PS2, that I game on a regular basis, I execute tea-baggers on my own faction on sight, and tell them in no unclear terms why this has been done. Believe it or not, but I agree with you 100% regarding that kind of juvenile behavior.
that doesnt seem like the best way to win people over let alone help your team win territory
If you tell them they are doing themselves and their fellow players a disservice by being immature tools and that there are far better ways to spend their time, it won't be much more than some ignorable, random guy disagreeing with their oh so important marking a single, meaningless kill in a game where death literally lasts for 10 seconds and they just wasted the time they won by teabagging the body.
But, if you hit them in the only thing they care about first - you shoot them and make a dent in their K/D and ego, THEN tell them they are doing themselves and their fellow players a disservice by being immature tools and that there are far better ways to spend their time, and that death literally lasts for 10 seconds and they just wasted the time they won by teabagging the body, THEN they will know what happens when they figuratively lay their hands on the hot plate.
What site? I didn't mention a site, as far as I know. And when did Silas mention religion? I can't find it anywhere.
Edit: Herpaderp, I just realized it was an attempt at equivocation. Nevermind. Bloodbird, the topic of gender inequality is very much involved in the topic at hand. This is why it's an issue that requires significant communication and outreach to each of the multiple sides of the debate, rather than any sort of bombastic statements. Please see the blogpost I linked further up in the thread for more on the matter of nuance here. It's a great read, if you have the time.
As for the organization, www.human.no would be the site for the Humanist organization I'm part of.
Thanks for the link. as for the topic, yeah, given that a grand total of 0 people have given any fucks about signing this so far, apparently mostly because of apathy, the topic is pretty worthless on it's own and we might as well keep the developing conversations right here.
To that effort I'll start with this:
@ SILAS
I've heard the gender pay gap myth so often I've lost count and frankly, can almost recite the answer to it off the top of my head by now. Almost. I'll just leave this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwogDPh-Sow) here for you, an answer to your first claim in a better way by better educated people than me.
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Awesome explanation in that video. Edit: Arista's video, that is.
As far as the topic at hand, while I can understand the 'Some bad apples do it, but it totally isn't me/most of us/etc' urge when these kind of issues come up, I don't think it is that helpful. I also think that most of the coverage I've seen hasn't really painted it with that broad a brush. But the truth here is that the portion of this that is most in need of attention is that fact that even a minority of people - and it is apparently not an extremely small minority, given the volume generated every time someone female says something these people disagree with - thinks that sending threats of death and sexual violence are an appropriate response to any sort of gaming related commentary (or even a possible breach of journalistic ethics. The litmus test I generally apply is, is this the same response a male person in the same position would get. The answer is 'no' with depressing regularity.)
Certainly this is an issue in other places and communities - particularly on the internet - as well, but for whatever reason it does seem there is a particularly virulent strain of it in gaming. I think that rather than dodging responsibility with an 'There are a few people like that, but not most of us, and not [/i]me[/i]' or suggesting it is almost not a problem with 'Its a tiny minority' type declarations, what I try to do is accept that it's a real problem, discourage it if I see it, make sure that places I e-frequent are not friendly to it, and keep an eye on my own tendency to float along in the lazy river of culturally acceptable pigeonholing of people based on sex, gender, race, etc.
Acknowledging a problem like this exists can feel like a personal affront, as can the suggestion that it's the community at fault. But that's what communities are, something we are all contributors to and something we therefore share responsibility for. I'm not angry that I might be tarred with the same brush as some sexist fuckwit. I'm angry that the sexist fuckwits haven't been driven off or drowned out by the rest of us. The community should be unbearably toxic for them, not for women or any other group that are just minding their goddamn business and perhaps expressing opinions on the internet in a reasonable way (even if they are opinions you disagree with).
tl:dr: It isn't a personal insult, and the people on the receiving end probably aren't trying to make you look bad. They are probably just hoping it gets better and eventually stops.
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@ Miz : that's precisely patriarchy, as much as you want to avoid the word, that creates either female or male inequalities. The matter of divorces is not exception to the rule, since the rule clearly points to "gender roles" and basic inequality of sexes, if not in terms of value, then in terms of what their "specialty" should be.
threads like this just remind me how much I am not a part of these "gaming communities", or any "online communities", because I have no idea what this is even about. I spend 60 hours or so a week at work, totally unconnected to the internet, and have no clue about any of this.
I work in the gaming industry and don't even know what the fuss is all about.
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@ SILAS
I've heard the gender pay gap myth so often I've lost count and frankly, can almost recite the answer to it off the top of my head by now. Almost. I'll just leave this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwogDPh-Sow) here for you, an answer to your first claim in a better way by better educated people than me.
That video is from a libertarian website, which drinks a very special brand of kool-aide with regards to how they feel a perfect world would work, and how they feel the current world works. Libertarians often champion the cause of a perfect world of individual choices and liberty that is unfortunately divorced from a real world of inherited social difficulties and false choices. (another thread topic perhaps!). It's always an interesting argument as those on the right often feel that everything we do is up to personal free decision making and flatly disregard societal and social influences on our 'choices' while the left often goes very far in the other direction maximizing the effect of society on our individuality and minimizing the role of the individual in our own outcomes.
Anyway The last 30 seconds of that video invalidate the previous 3:30.
Of course if women were making the same education and work choices as men they would be probably be getting paid nearly as well in the long run. Unfortunately society expects and channels them to do more of the child-rearing and home work, there's only so much time and effort one can put into a career and balance those other issues. Remember when female CEO's who run billion dollar businesses get asked how they can take care of their family and run such a large business and the male CEO's aren't? We have an ingrained societal expectation with regards to gender and sex roles that fortunately are becoming (slowly) less and less valid and rigid.
Things are starting to slide in interesting directions though as more men take up more of the child-rearing activities and more homes are dual-career. An unfortunate side effect of wage stagnation is that both parents often need to work out of simply making ends meet.
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I've heard the gender pay gap myth so often I've lost count and frankly, can almost recite the answer to it off the top of my head by now. Almost. I'll just leave this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwogDPh-Sow) here for you, an answer to your first claim in a better way by better educated people than me.
"Women do not earn less than men because of inequality and discrimination but due to their experiences/skills/job choices."
Well then, thanks you for pointing the obvious Mr I don't know who he is. :roll:
That may be true but I think you missed the fact that it doesn't negate the problem at all : men often work in better paid fields of work precisely because women are educated not to care about those fields of work, or discouraged of doing so because that's not a womanly job, like secretary is not a manly job.
Cf the video Arista linked (the one with Neil DeGrass Tyson).
Awesome explanation in that video. Edit: Arista's video, that is.
As far as the topic at hand, while I can understand the 'Some bad apples do it, but it totally isn't me/most of us/etc' urge when these kind of issues come up, I don't think it is that helpful. I also think that most of the coverage I've seen hasn't really painted it with that broad a brush. But the truth here is that the portion of this that is most in need of attention is that fact that even a minority of people - and it is apparently not an extremely small minority, given the volume generated every time someone female says something these people disagree with - thinks that sending threats of death and sexual violence are an appropriate response to any sort of gaming related commentary (or even a possible breach of journalistic ethics. The litmus test I generally apply is, is this the same response a male person in the same position would get. The answer is 'no' with depressing regularity.)
Certainly this is an issue in other places and communities - particularly on the internet - as well, but for whatever reason it does seem there is a particularly virulent strain of it in gaming. I think that rather than dodging responsibility with an 'There are a few people like that, but not most of us, and not [/i]me[/i]' or suggesting it is almost not a problem with 'Its a tiny minority' type declarations, what I try to do is accept that it's a real problem, discourage it if I see it, make sure that places I e-frequent are not friendly to it, and keep an eye on my own tendency to float along in the lazy river of culturally acceptable pigeonholing of people based on sex, gender, race, etc.
Acknowledging a problem like this exists can feel like a personal affront, as can the suggestion that it's the community at fault. But that's what communities are, something we are all contributors to and something we therefore share responsibility for. I'm not angry that I might be tarred with the same brush as some sexist fuckwit. I'm angry that the sexist fuckwits haven't been driven off or drowned out by the rest of us. The community should be unbearably toxic for them, not for women or any other group that are just minding their goddamn business and perhaps expressing opinions on the internet in a reasonable way (even if they are opinions you disagree with).
tl:dr: It isn't a personal insult, and the people on the receiving end probably aren't trying to make you look bad. They are probably just hoping it gets better and eventually stops.
Gamers getting offended to broad strokes aimed at the gaming male community may have something on their consciousness. I don't feel targeted the slightest by these accusations. I actually fully endorse them.
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Gamers getting offended to broad strokes aimed at the gaming male community may have something on their consciousness. I don't feel targeted the slightest by these accusations. I actually fully endorse them.
I don't think that is fair. One needn't feel guilty to feel that this sort of thing carries the sting of false accusation. I just don't think that in most cases that is the intent on one side, or that on the other side that viewing it that way is a useful response to the underlying problem.
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@ Silver your longer post +100; much more eloquent and less pitchfork-wielding than I could ever manage.
Well said
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@ SILAS
I've heard the gender pay gap myth so often I've lost count and frankly, can almost recite the answer to it off the top of my head by now. Almost. I'll just leave this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwogDPh-Sow) here for you, an answer to your first claim in a better way by better educated people than me.
That video is from a libertarian website, which drinks a very special brand of kool-aide with regards to how they feel a perfect world would work, and how they feel the current world works. Libertarians often champion the cause of a perfect world of individual choices and liberty that is unfortunately divorced from a real world of inherited social difficulties and false choices. (another thread topic perhaps!). It's always an interesting argument as those on the right often feel that everything we do is up to personal free decision making and flatly disregard societal and social influences on our 'choices' while the left often goes very far in the other direction maximizing the effect of society on our individuality and minimizing the role of the individual in our own outcomes.
Anyway The last 30 seconds of that video invalidate the previous 3:30.
Of course if women were making the same education and work choices as men they would be probably be getting paid nearly as well in the long run. Unfortunately society expects and channels them to do more of the child-rearing and home work, there's only so much time and effort one can put into a career and balance those other issues. Remember when female CEO's who run billion dollar businesses get asked how they can take care of their family and run such a large business and the male CEO's aren't? We have an ingrained societal expectation with regards to gender and sex roles that fortunately are becoming (slowly) less and less valid and rigid.
Things are starting to slide in interesting directions though as more men take up more of the child-rearing activities and more homes are dual-career. An unfortunate side effect of wage stagnation is that both parents often need to work out of simply making ends meet.
So in short, the video is invalid and the wage gap is down to discrimination between men and women's gender-based expectations?
I suppose you also have a handy answer to explain why you presented the claim it's an economical discrimination based on gender if you knew all along that it was based on what life choices men and women make regarding their work, what type of work, and how long they do work, or did I miss something? (I may well have, I've not slept in 46 hours :ugh:)
I'm going to just leave this here for all of you.......Enjoy
P.S. Many of these have been committed already in this thread.
[Sorry about the scale.]
Thanks. Saved to my hard-drive.
@ Bloodbird I think gender inequality is very much at the root of your discussion, it drives the criticism of that particular industry and also unfortunately drives the predictable responses.
If my religion is advocating for the marginalized in society then thank you I guess :)
Your "religion" is feminism, far as I can see. I have spent the last year looking into the whole feminism vs MRM kerfuffle. The horrible thing is that, my attempt to remain as unbiased as I can has failed me miserably. There is only so much I can take before I start to look at people in a generalized manner.
I estimate personally that the feminists I've seen, about 90% of them are illogical, emotion-driven ideologues who might as well be religious zealots, given their actions, statements and absurd disregard for anyone or anything that might disagree with them, while only about 20% of the MRM's member-base that I've seen have been the MRM's bad apples, as it was.
The disparity is absurdly slanted in the favor of the MRA's, something that surprised me given the almost universal media portrayals of MRA's as the evil assholes in the whole conflict.
I will only be able to hope then that you forgive me for getting rather tense, tired and disappointing with anyone here I see towing the feminist party line as hard as you do. I'll try for fairness' sake however to treat you on a personal level, as I've tried with every other feminist I've had conversations and debates with.
So, let's begin with this. The Gender wage gap that I pointed out an explanation for in my previous post, and a simple question.
You claim to speak for the "marginalized" in society. As in, western society in general. And by that, I assume you speak of women. In that line I got a quick question Silas.
What rights do men have today, that women don't? How are women marginalized in modern society?
Ofc, if I got it wrong correct me and then answer, please.
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Gamers getting offended to broad strokes aimed at the gaming male community may have something on their consciousness. I don't feel targeted the slightest by these accusations. I actually fully endorse them.
I don't think that is fair. One needn't feel guilty to feel that this sort of thing carries the sting of false accusation. I just don't think that in most cases that is the intent on one side, or that on the other side that viewing it that way is a useful response to the underlying problem.
Yes of course it is a broad stroke. Well the issue is that i'm speaking about something I don't even have read or seen so far. They probably crossed a line and I can perfectly believe you on that. Especially since i'm no fan at all of broad generalizations. They would have said something like "the gaming community is plagued with sexist, homophobic and racist vermin" and I would have had no complain whatsoever to do, since it doesn't put every gamer in the same basket.
Wait. Ok well, you got a point considering how the above post made by Bloodbird about feminism being a religion made me rolleyes, since it's basically the same thing, not about gaming, but about feminism.
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I mostly agree there, Silver. Not entirely, but close enough. The thing is that this is not achieved by statements that do tar a whole community with the same brush. No matter how you define it, it is still a matter of a minority whether it's a small or large one. To rally the rest of the reasonable people behind your cause, you're really not going to succeed with rhetoric and discourse that does slap everyone who calls themselves a gamer in the face. It's easy to say not to take it personally, but it'd be even easier to not aim it at everyone to begin with. I know I am certainly no misogynist or any of the other hilarious little names leveled at me by a significant portion of public figures in gaming. This doesn't mean it's okay to call me one and just assume I won't include myself in the demographic that's being described.
This approach creates a gulf between "us" and "them", drawing lines in the sand etc. It's basically saying "You are with the BAD ONES. Repent! Come HERE, to the GOOD SIDE." which right off the bat labels you as an enemy and that you are responsible for the actions and viewpoints of the minority. A far more useful approach would be to say "There are BAD ONES among your demographic. Don't you think we could do something about that? Let's have a talk and see what we can figure out.".
Obviously stupidly simplified but the key is inclusion, communication and joining forces rather than exclusion, labeling and then expecting people to be on your side.
Antagonizing people will in the great majority of cases alienate them rather than convert them. I can completely understand the people who have been apathetic or simply haven't cared falling into the defensive or even offensive camp against feminism and such when they've pretty much been pushed right off the fence and into the misogyny camp instead of being pulled off the fence into the equality camp with inclusive and approachable language.
And this is where the cynic in me starts rising as I'm convinced a lot of people know and understand this quite well, and intentionally create these hostile camps so they can clothe themselves in victimhood and reap the publicity and kickstarter funds sympathy generates. The fairly well proven false flag cases of fake harassment - note, I'm not saying harassment etc doesn't occur. I'm saying there are demonstrable cases where claimed harassment never happened - happening exactly at times where these people need a publicity boost or a buttload of sympathy to offset some bad PR makes me want to chew the keyboard.
In short, I'd stay damn clear of every public figure on this matter as most of them are either on the extremist side of things or are cynically using the shitstorms for their personal gain. Go online, check your local area for groups doing actual work on whatever cause you consider worth it and join them in real life. That's where shit gets done.
Also, have a bit of empathy and understand that the people on the other side of the fence aren't necessarily enemies. They're just trying to keep the coin balanced on the edge rather than having it fall down and crush them underneath it.
that's precisely patriarchy, as much as you want to avoid the word, that creates either female or male inequalities. The matter of divorces is not exception to the rule, since the rule clearly points to "gender roles" and basic inequality of sexes, if not in terms of value, then in terms of what their "specialty" should be.
Patriarchy is a very evocative word. It implies some sort of male conspiracy or that there's some concerted effort to keep the genders imbalanced etc. It manages in a single word to paint men as enemies. See above for why this is a bad thing for everyone involved.
As for gender specialties etc. There's no getting around the fact that men and women are different. We think differently. We're generally physically different. There are demonstrable differences in our brains, in neurology, hormones etc etc that lends themselves to different things. In my line of work, we know women are generally far better at many aspects of it (patient comforting, empathizing (( Which is useful in diagnostics and communication )) and some other things) while men tend to be better at clinical examination, separating emotions from cold logic (useful in triage, high stress situations, looking past lying patients etc) and sheer physical strength.
Equality between genders is not a cause well served by forgetting that there are differences between the genders. We had an ambulance where due to quotas two young women were assigned. They couldn't do their job. They couldn't lift the patient in the gurney, they occasionally couldn't suppress their need to help a patient and got themselves in dangerous situations to do so, etc. The same applies in the other direction, where all male crews are far less suited for jobs than women.
The above of course speaks of men and women who identifies as such and does not touch upon feminine men or masculine women. Men can have the neurological features generally seen in women and vice versa, and physical attributes to boot.
Dismissing gender roles as irrelevant or even as a bad thing does not do our society any favors as biologically there are quite significant differences that need to be accounted for.
I estimate personally that the feminists I've seen, about 90% of them are illogical, emotion-driven ideologues who might as well be religious zealots, given their actions, statements and absurd disregard for anyone or anything that might disagree with them, while only about 20% of the MRM's member-base that I've seen have been the MRM's bad apples, as it was.
This is not quite right. This, I suspect, is a matter of sheer numbers. The self-proclaimed feminists are truly legion. They outnumber the MRM by a factor of a FUCKTON. This means that even if a mere five percent (number pulled wholecloth out of my arse) of them are loud extremists joining in on #killallmen unironically they will still vastly outnumber the entire MRM.
The proportions of assholes and extremists are quite likely to be equal on both sides of that fence, but since one camp is significantly smaller they'll just look like they have less assholes. We have just as many douchenozzles in the MRM as feminists have... err... douchebottles? There's just less of us overall.
OGOD EVEN MORE REPLIES! Fuck it, I'm posting this now in the hopes that no new ones have been made in the mean time or this'll become a bloody book before I'm finished.
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assume you speak of women. In that line I got a quick question Silas.
What rights do men have today, that women don't? How are women marginalized in modern society?
I don't claim to speak for any other person, I can only express empathy and solidarity with those I feel are often victims and marginalized. Advocating for a group of people is not speaking for them. Being an ally is not speaking for them. The more male allies that feminists have, the better.
here's a few though:
Men seem to have the right not to be harassed on the street for the clothing they wear.
Men seem to have the right not to be raped at alarming rates and then judged for the clothes they were wearing, or what they did to 'cause' the crimes against them. Hint: it's not the clothes fault, it's the rapist.
Men also seem to have the right to not be victims of sexual assault in colleges across the country at grotesque rates, and then have their stories constantly ignored, trivialized, and shoved under the rug by administration PR not wishing to have public spotlights on the issue.
Men seem to have the right to not be beholden to or ushered into specific career fields due to their gender
Men seem to have the right to make sexual decisions with little fear of stigmatization and ridicule and social pariah status. Sexual promiscuity is socially rewarded in males, is ostracized in females.
Men seem to have the right to stalk and harass women with very little in the way of legal ramifications or disincentives.
Men seem to have the right to not be reduced to sexual objects in nearly all media. Movies, television, video games. Constant and at absurd rates.
Men seem to have the right not to be targeted by advertising at a young age and indoctrinated to be 'sexy' and an object of physical allure versus a complete person.
It's a long list but that's what comes to mind first.
Regarding the video the point is that those 'choices,' and that's a big air quote on 'choices' that women make regarding education and employment, are products of societal expectations and steering regarding gender. Men are also steered, but they seem to be steered into the high paying careers and aren't expected to take time away from careers to raise children.
Also it's always a good practice with these issues to include more women in the discussion if possible, although on this forum that can be a difficult thing. Try discussing these issues with your girlfriend/wife if you have one, or some female friends and see what they think.
Since you gave me a video here's one for you, Jean Kilbourne has been doing amazing work for decades regarding women in advertising. She's made some very illuminating lectures and videos that I found very educational.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWKXit_3rpQ&src_vid=PTlmho_RovY&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_493134379
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Re-reading my comments so far, the topic at hand, my lack of sleep, and the speed this tread is moving with I'd say I'm not in shape to do anything constructive.
I'll pitch in once I've had some sleep.
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that's precisely patriarchy, as much as you want to avoid the word, that creates either female or male inequalities. The matter of divorces is not exception to the rule, since the rule clearly points to "gender roles" and basic inequality of sexes, if not in terms of value, then in terms of what their "specialty" should be.
Patriarchy is a very evocative word. It implies some sort of male conspiracy or that there's some concerted effort to keep the genders imbalanced etc. It manages in a single word to paint men as enemies. See above for why this is a bad thing for everyone involved.
As for gender specialties etc. There's no getting around the fact that men and women are different. We think differently. We're generally physically different. There are demonstrable differences in our brains, in neurology, hormones etc etc that lends themselves to different things. In my line of work, we know women are generally far better at many aspects of it (patient comforting, empathizing (( Which is useful in diagnostics and communication )) and some other things) while men tend to be better at clinical examination, separating emotions from cold logic (useful in triage, high stress situations, looking past lying patients etc) and sheer physical strength.
Equality between genders is not a cause well served by forgetting that there are differences between the genders. We had an ambulance where due to quotas two young women were assigned. They couldn't do their job. They couldn't lift the patient in the gurney, they occasionally couldn't suppress their need to help a patient and got themselves in dangerous situations to do so, etc. The same applies in the other direction, where all male crews are far less suited for jobs than women.
The above of course speaks of men and women who identifies as such and does not touch upon feminine men or masculine women. Men can have the neurological features generally seen in women and vice versa, and physical attributes to boot.
Dismissing gender roles as irrelevant or even as a bad thing does not do our society any favors as biologically there are quite significant differences that need to be accounted for.
It is a very evocative word ? Well, not for me it would seem. I just see it for what it is : patriarchy, with a societal system built around men for men, or at least around men as head of families. And I deeply believe that people are selfish by essence, especially in the individualistic societies we live in, so I have no difficulty to imagine that a lot of men want to keep their privileges, while the majority of the rest are just not aware of these privileges, for that they are no women and do not suffer from them.
It is the exact same thing in gaming when gamers get outraged because some games suddenly introduce homosexual romances or whatever. They get outraged mostly because those games do not cater anymore to their audience, while still playing in the same kind of games (cf bioware games, etc). They naturally forget that they have always been the main audience and are suddenly put in the position of all those minorities that never had the pleasure to get a game specifically designed for them, or at least including options for them. That's a problem of privilege by birth, or if not, by essence.
So if that word implies to people some conspiracy or tinfoil hattery, then i'm sorry, it was simply not what I wanted to imply.
It is also of course good to mention that for decades now the situation has been changing quite a lot and the appearance of post modernism is slowly decaying that old state of matter. It is indeed not a good idea to dismiss that patriarchy is part of what shaped our history and society, and that I am also conscious that some people I know have perfectly valid arguments regarding the differentiation of roles by gender. Well, yes, it is also the case in nature for most species (speaking about gender roles here, not homosexuality, which is very different in that case). I know those people do not want to see women be the lesser of men, but they want to see women in a different role, each with their strengths and responsibilities.
I can hardly tell them that they are doing it wrong or that their view is stupid. It is just a matter of opinion. And my own is quite clear on the matter : their opinion viscerally disgusts me. That's not the society I want. The same way that some right wing dudes might have perfectly valid arguments for their favoured model of society, doesn't mean that I will agree with them. I find their model disgusting. The same way they probably find mine disgusting.
Also, on differences between men and women, I think that you may over emphasize over them. Physical difference and genetic differences definitely are here. It is very telling in itself that men are closer to male chimps and women to female chimps genetically, because of, you know, sex chromosomes differences... But seriously, isn't that another hint of the absurdity to compare physical differences like that ? Or even worse, to compare physical differences with societal ones ? Why do physical differences have to imply societal differences and roles ? In stoneage, maybe, but these days... ? Really ?
So yes, I just can't agree with your view. I could cite counter examples of working experience where women can prove to be more "manly" than men, or vice versa. I also believe that if you put these differences found in the majority of these cases on physical differences, then I put them on mere environmental upbringing and societal expectations.
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Silas, those points aren't entirely correct. At least not over here. From personal experience and from conversations with other men:
* Being harassed for what you're wearing happens. I've been both sexually assaulted and derided on the street.
* Rape of men is an MRM issue because a disturbing amount of it either goes unreported or dismissed when reported. There's a huge culture of dismissing such things as not even happening or existing in both legal systems and in society in general.
* Men most certainly get dismissed, ignored, trivialized and shoved under the rug when sexually abused. It's a huge issue within MRM.
* Military. Forced drafts. Relentless pushing of "macho" stuff and towards a "real man's job" instead of nursing, arts, etc. If you're into these things, clearly you're a poofter. Grab a gun and become a MAN!
* I'll largely agree with you on promiscuity, although women are less stigmatized for it over here I feel. This is generally because we're really not into the whole shame or guilt thing when it comes to sex. Liberate your society over sex in general and the issue will almost be gone.
* Men get slapped with the law without any proof or indication of actually harassing or stalking all the time. This is another MRM issue we've been going over as men repeatedly and often get claims of harassment or other things against them and the legal system overwhelmingly works against them in favor of a tearful woman. This isn't conjecture, there are many cases where there's been found proof that the legal system is being used as a cynical tool by women against men.
* What media have you watched? I can't see a single show on television, in games or movies, without seeing a ridiculously unrealistic depiction of "manliness" or body images you can't possibly match without spending your entire life in the gym and in tanning salons.
* GI Joe, a huge range of violence oriented toys/games/shows, all generally pushing boys towards being MANLY MEN rather than themselves.
It's a long list and merely a small part of what men faces even in our most enlightened western countries.
As I said, we're all in this together. Feminists and MRM both aim towards the same thing and that's egalitarianism. Neither side is well served by claiming the other does not have their issues worth considering.
Let me share a trick I learned when I was set to write public statements, letters to newspapers etc in the Humanist organization. Don't go out offensively. Consider Humanism vs the Church as an example. We don't attack their stance on equality, women's rights or homosexuality. We promote our own views. We speak positively of their positive work and emphasize the great goals we have, what we're working towards and how to achieve it. This makes people empathize, relate and join in on our side of things.
Now, if we were to attack their points of view instead, pointing at blatant homophobia or their unwillingness to promote women within the church or whatever else, we'd look like an aggressor and rightly so. People never respond as well to an aggressor as to a promoter of positive stuff. Many would see the church as under attack and rally around it either to protect a victim or repel something aggressive or many other things and in the process they'd also dismiss our message.
Promote feminism. Promote all the great things women can and will do for society and how much better society will be with equal rights and less discrimination based on gender. (And religion, race, sexuality etc but in this case we're talking about feminism and MRM) This will make people join in and consider the benefits of feminism.
Putting the focus on men and setting them up as bad guys creates animosity. It doesn't promote cooperation or change, but instead makes people dig trenches to stave off an assault.
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No Miz, that's only because you live in that minority of nordic countries where women happen to court men as much as men do, and that kind of thing. The patriarchic feel is quite absent here, and it took me so much time to even notice that there were actual countries where the society was so radically different in regard to genders that i'm still amazed. I think the first time I heard of that was when I was looking more into moving in Canada barely 4 years ago.
Funny the things you tend not to know...
It's not a coincidence either that most of you here that do not jump on the "feminist bandwagon" are from nordic countries.
Edit : it's the exact same thing that tends to colour my view when it comes to racism against black people. I'm very cynical with that kind of thing over there since yes, it still happens, and more than we want to believe, but there is also a great deal of positive discrimination involved precisely because it's still an issue (mostly in cases of employment), but not enough to warrant the thing we see happening for example in the US, where it is still a damn taboo and one of the big sensitive subjects that plagues the country. I'm pretty sure I would tend to groan at some of the arguments I hear from them over there for the simple reason that they just sound overexagerated or completely out of place where I live, even if it is still a sensitive subject from time to time. In terms of scale and society, it's just not the same thing.
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Miz I think we are just making entirely different arguments.
The things you talk about do happen, I don't disagree. You are right that it is a problem, it should stop, etc etc we should always work towards social justice for all in society. Those things you speak of are real problems, and they do have victims and awful consequences for the men involved.
BUT, the extent to which those things you mention happen to men, and the amount of men they effect, verses the extent of the things I mention happen to women, and the number of women they effect, don't really make for equivalent amount of problems.
It's not that you aren't correct, it's just that it's comparing a mountain to a very small hill. The small hill is very real and serious for the people that make up the small hill, but the mountain needs more attention and resources. The mountain effects half of the planet, and makes up half of its population. The amount of men dealing with those issues is a fraction of a tiny percent.
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@ Silas, I really think you're underestimating the size of the hill vs the size of the mountain. Especially given the amount of people focused on the mountain compared the infinitesimal amount of people taking a poke at the hill. However, that's not really the main thrust of my argument. It's about how to approach either of them, the mountain OR the hill.
I'm entirely cool with feminism. The more feminists the are, the happier I am. I wholly and entirely endorse your focus on feminism over MRM since whichever one you are, you're still tackling important issues.
I'm generally arguing against the method used. The rhetoric employed. It's ineffective. It's creating animosity against feminism and generally will prove to be detrimental for feminism.
EDIT: Separating this into two paragraphs, as I just realized I'm an example of the line above this edit. I've now made several points in defense of men and argued against things you've said, even though I am in general on your side when it comes to women's issues. I didn't even think about it at the time of writing, but I was compelled to do so as your argumentation were on the Assault The Other Side rather than Promote Our Own Side of things.
Making a list of "things men don't have to deal with" looks very good from a women's point of view but it doesn't really do much but slathering guilt on the other party and that doesn't generate much good will. If you'd instead make a list of benefits from promoting a safer and healthier environment in colleges when it comes to sexual behaviour and awareness etc, you'd gain more supporters on both sides and likely a lot more traction when it comes to improving the situation.
In short, remove all bad guys from the entire line of arguments. As soon as you are perceived, rightfully or not, to be attacking a viewpoint, a gender, a demographic or whatever you will create opposition. This is only useful if you know that opposition can be buried under the weight of the support you create and neither side is in a position to do this. At this time, it's infinitely more useful and effective to argue the merits of equality and eradication of discrimination than arguing attacking discrimination outright. The latter would certainly be a moral and righteous thing, but it's simply a fact that huge swathes of people will for many reasons stand up against any attack on a viewpoint. Get these people on your side instead, by being the nice good guy that simply promotes the good stuff.
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Oh on that we agree yes. Especially considering how plagued by nutcases is feminism, not very differently from the gaming community incidentally.
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/me takes the soft feminine way out, and walks back to the kitchen
:P
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What in seven hells?
The fuck happened here, I posted on page one less than 24 hours ago. What the hell kind of shitstorm got loose?
I just thought it was a strange petition, can someone explain better than google news what's going on?
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Vizage: Thanks for the fallacies pic. Will be sending it to my mother-in-law.
Hmm, do I have something on-topic to say on this thread that I did not read fully?
...
Can't we all just get along?
That's rhetorical, by the way.
/me joins Shahni in the kitchen.
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Aside note/
Bloodbird, I told you that this sort of thing would result in nothing but abuse sent your way. I don't know why you bother.
/end aside note
I really don't care about gamers, or gaming culture, or who is right or wrong in the current kerfluffle. It's interesting, but I don't care. I like games. The only thing that really pissed me off in this whole deal was when one of feminist-sided articles declared that "we need to stop focusing on making games fun". To me, that was an element of ideological stupidity that reached a sort of critical mass, wherein it destroyed the very subject matter it was trying to argue over.
I worry about that sort of thing. But not really. Because no matter what the SJW's try for, there will still be games where I get to do what I enjoy: build, wreck, conquer, murder, resurrect, and generally have fun. It may only be indie developers making them (like Toady1, with Dwarf Fortress), but they'll be there. So my hobby is safe - not that I always have as much time to play it as I'd like.
As for misogyny, I don't give a damn. :P I don't spend my time worrying about whether women have it bad in gaming or how I can get more women to enjoy my hobby. I just...don't care. But I also don't go out of my way to cause offense. I don't say stupid shit like "make me a sandwich", or "tits or GTFO", or anything else more offensive, which I will omit for reasons of not getting catacomb-ed. Nor do I tend to laugh at it. I don't find it interesting or funny, and I don't find those who do to be very interesting people. If women want to enjoy games, great. If they are driven out by the misogyny of others, well, frankly, I probably won't notice.
Which is a principle that also applies to the wider view. I'm all for women getting paid equally for equal work, but I also notice that most women don't seem interested in doing dirty and dangerous jobs, even if they pay more. I have nothing against hiring female construction workers, but they are rarer than hens teeth. Am I supposed to go drag a receptionist down to one of my bays to work as a painter, since painting pays more? Or should I tell the painter that, despite the fact he has to work in a hot metal building for eight straight hours with toxic chemicals, I'm going to decrease his paycheck and hand it to the nearest receptionist in an air-conditioned office?
Ultimately, I'm going to do neither, because I don't care to try to exert my brief life trying to enact justice on an unjust universe. I seek my own good, because that's hard enough to attain. And so, if women are more likely to be harassed or attacked, so much the worse for them. If men are (as I understand the case to be) more likely to be assaulted and murdered, well, I try to stay in safe areas, I've taken some martial arts, and I may carry what legal weaponry I'm allowed. If the police are unjust, I try to keep recording devices around and stay scrupulously within the law. It may not save me, but it improves my chances.
If men fare worse with alimony, well, I won't get married. If men have more workplace accidents, I'll just try to be careful and alert. If men experience domestic partner violence more than was previously thought, well, I'll learn to live happily alone if necessary, and make sure I have ways of verifying my behavior as good if I'm in a relationship.
I remember reading some of the Red Pill reddit stuff after BB brought up the MRM last time. One of the things they posit is that men should try to be more "manly", more masculine, and one thing they recommended was lifting weights. Now, I don't know if Red Pill theory is very accurate or total BS, but, I thought, if they are right, lifting weights and getting more exercise will make me more attractive and interesting to both genders. And, if they're full of shit, well, I'll keep in shape and feel good anyway. What's to lose?
So, I'm off to do my workout.
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Aside note/
Bloodbird, I told you that this sort of thing would result in nothing but abuse sent your way. I don't know why you bother.
/end aside note
Sometimes I wonder too. Maybe I'm just a masochist :(
I've re-read this whole tread now and come to the realization that, the odds of this discussion going any better than the previous one's I've had with feminists and their supporters and the hard-liners among the MRM is likely not going to go anywhere at all constructive. I've already seen many of the signs and the arch-typical arguments from some members here drains away any hope. Why would anyone here be different when I've seen it all before?
Mizhara, I'll take your advice to heart - and I've saved the link to HEF, thanks for sharing that - and will be bowing out instead of waste my time with what seems to be ideologues I won't have a hope of swaying either way.
Your reply to Silas regarding gendered differences in media and such was more-or-less what I wanted to reply with but far more eloquent and well-put, so if you keep this discussion going, I wish you well - you are better suited for it than I am anyway.
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I really don't care about gamers, or gaming culture, or who is right or wrong in the current kerfluffle. It's interesting, but I don't care. I like games. The only thing that really pissed me off in this whole deal was when one of feminist-sided articles declared that "we need to stop focusing on making games fun". To me, that was an element of ideological stupidity that reached a sort of critical mass, wherein it destroyed the very subject matter it was trying to argue over.
I worry about that sort of thing. But not really. Because no matter what the SJW's try for, there will still be games where I get to do what I enjoy: build, wreck, conquer, murder, resurrect, and generally have fun. It may only be indie developers making them (like Toady1, with Dwarf Fortress), but they'll be there. So my hobby is safe - not that I always have as much time to play it as I'd like.
As for misogyny, I don't give a damn. :P I don't spend my time worrying about whether women have it bad in gaming or how I can get more women to enjoy my hobby. I just...don't care. But I also don't go out of my way to cause offense.
True this.
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[...]
Of course, that's what certain high-profile people/groups are trying to make it about, but it isn't what started it. Shitty and corrupt journalism practices are what started it off. That some people responded to reports of it in an entirely inappropriate fashion is an entirely separate issue that should be dealt with on its own without detracting (or distracting) from the fact that journalism in the gaming industry (and, to be fair, many other industries) is full of corrupt and shitty behavior that ruins any illusion of "integrity" that may or may not have been present.
Yeah, I don't believe this. I've been looking for those Nixon tapes, and all I've found is that
1. Just about everybody who's pointed out as 'corrupt' is a woman with 'unpopular' opinions about games, or anyone who's ever admitted those might have some sort of point.
2. The 'evidence' of their corruption all boils down to outright lies, gifs on 4chan of Twitter conversations between people in the industry with red arrows drawn between them, or accusations that pitching $5 in some starving indie's Patreon is evidence of some kind of massive conspiracy.
3. Meanwhile, actual industry collusion between actual monied interests goes wholly unremarked.
I can't see these #gamergate people as, at best, useful idiots in 4chan's perpetual anti-'SJW' crusade. /v/ lecturing people on ethics? Really?
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What in seven hells?
The fuck happened here, I posted on page one less than 24 hours ago. What the hell kind of shitstorm got loose?
I just thought it was a strange petition, can someone explain better than google news what's going on?
I was literally just about to say this, substituting "posted" with "saw".
What the fuck, people. LOL.
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Keep in mind this whole shitpile was started when her jilted ex decided to post a gigantic emotional diatribe about Zoe Quinn. It's not about shitty journalism at all because I've read the articles that the men she allegedly slept with wrote after the alleged affairs. Only one of them mentions the game she made at all and it's in passing. This is about using slutshaming to silence a voice that people think is getting too uppity. This is why we have the derisively voiced term "social justice warrior" being thrown around. You know what? I'll adopt that term.
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Also not surprised that admitted sociopath Vikarion doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself and his own enjoyment
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Also not surprised that admitted sociopath Vikarion doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself and his own enjoyment
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Interestingly I think gender and other inequality issues tend to take a healthy amount of empathy to try and untangle, or at least is a requirement to make you have an interest in the issues. If you can't imagine yourself in the shoes of the other it's hard to get that desire to change things kindled.
This thing with the vidjo-games is following a very standard script by this point, and you can replace "video games" with any hot issue you like: race, income inequality, whatever.
The people who have been getting the shaft for decades point out to the people not getting fucked how awful the situation is, some of the people not getting screwed by the system loudly and aggressively give 0 fucks and there we go. People getting the shaft eventually become more radical since asking nicely to not be given the shaft seems to have little effect.
Side Rant:
As we just had 'labor day (hah)' here in the US, a brief aside I sometimes have good discussions with my conservative friends about, who champion hard core 'free market:'
A lot of the work standards they take for granted were radical anti establishment positions 100 years ago.
The fact that most of us work an 8 hour day and not a 16 hour day, the fact that most of us only work 5 days a week, the fact that your children aren't working in factories, or are drinking poisoned milk, that sort of thing.
Those laws weren't just handed down from on high because the powers in control wanted to be nice. It took thousands of people protesting and striking and being shot and beaten and killed by the police to make a dent in the at the time awful situation. People literally were dying for this stuff, and most Americans forget that.
Not more than a mile from where I'm typing this a 100 years ago you had thousands of people on the streets demanding not to be worked to death in factories, and they eventually got what they asked for.
My point is that people in control don't just give up their authority and their system, they don't take less control over things, it takes constant vigilance and constant work by everyone to at least try and make the system a little less cruel. This goes for labor, racism, democracy, anything. Complacency leads to you getting screwed in the end.
So if we think video games are sexist or that forums are full of trolls as Silver said it's up to each and every once of us to make the community that we want to exist in. That maybe means voting with your money on some games, or raising your voice when you see something you disagree with.
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Disclaimer: This shit makes me immensely grumpy. If there's a snippy tone here, it is not directed at the OP, but what's going on in general. I'll make no pretence at objectivity; this makes my piss boil.
Or there's this https://medium.com/@andreaszecher/open-letter-to-the-gaming-community-df4511032e8a (https://medium.com/@andreaszecher/open-letter-to-the-gaming-community-df4511032e8a).
Well, I'd agree with 'stop the hatred' - it's just most of the hatred I've seen hasn't been directed at 'gamers' as a whole.
I've seen a lot of disproportionate hatred directed at two individuals - Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn by a vocal minority of the gaming community, though.
With the former, and the recent harassment where someone tweeted this:
http://i.imgur.com/u7VXuEU.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/u7VXuEU.jpg) she decided to leave her house and contact the police. Because when someone threatens you and your family and knows your address, you probably want to take it seriously. (and because it's fucking nuts)
The backlash against Sarkeesian is that she's made it all up to victimize herself, or it's not as bad she and the 'SWJs' are claiming. I've heard people say it's all 'completely innocent'. (even if you're just trolling for the lulz, it isn't innocent).
And no, one person, does very much not speak for all. But that's the threat, the serious threat, with her address blanked out. It's not like there haven't been umpteen other examples of harassment. Such as these. http://www.newstatesman.com/sites/default/files/images/anita-threats.JPG (http://www.newstatesman.com/sites/default/files/images/anita-threats.JPG)
Then further, go on some of the comment threads at the moment and hear people talk about her. It's like she's the anti-christ, out to 'kill games and gamers' as one person put it. Apparently, she wants to censor, sanitize and/or ban games.
Odd. I hadn't heard her say that - what she actually said was it's entirely possible to enjoy something and find aspects of it problematic at the same time.
Why is she such a threatening figure, receiving so much hate?
Because she's made videos discussing tropes that represent female characters in video games. That's it. Just fairly standard media criticism, but directed at games.
And, I suppose, the hate may be reaching critical mass because some of the people listening to her are fairly high profile. Like Joss Whedon and Tim Schafer. Like the Game Developers Choice Awards. Like various gaming websites and journalists.
The Zoe Quinn stuff is less cut and dry.
Zoe Quinn made a game - you may have heard of it, you may not. It's called Depression Quest. When she submitted it on Steam green-light she received a bunch of harassment - despite the fact you could play it for free. I don't know why. Maybe because people feel it's #notarealgame because it's text based.
Her ex boyfriend wrote a blog detailing his side of the story of their relationship. It's as bitter as you might imagine it would be. In it, he accuses her of cheating on him with 5 guys. The '5 guys burgers and fries' meme is born. Some of these people are in the game industry as well, therefore in a position to benefit her career. The boyfriend left a kind of "I'm not saying this did happen, but it's awfully convenient..." type comment regarding the possibility of nepotism. Which is enough for the internet, obvs.
Therefore the issue of slut shaming Zoe Quinn on the word of a jilted ex-boyfriend, and corruption and lack of integrity in gaming journalism got conflated. Despite the allegations not having any basis: http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-been-asked-several-times-about-a-pos-1624707346 (http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-been-asked-several-times-about-a-pos-1624707346).
Apparently the details of her sex life is in the public interest because she's an indy dev.
I'd ask though, if it's an issue of journalistic integrity, how come the hate is centred on her? How come she's the one people are making doctored images of and putting up on the internet, she's the one getting smeared, targetted and doxxed, rather than the journalists who've have been accused of trading good reviews for sexual favours?
Plenty of people are coming out and saying, no, actually, I play games, it's my hobby, but I don't what a vocal minority of people are doing to represent me. I would never do that shit, or condone it.
As far as I'm concerned, the more gaming websites and entities who say this attack and harassment stuff is completely unacceptable, and anyone wanting to do so is unwelcome in their community, the less 'tainted' by it 'gamers' as a whole will be.
Here's some examples:
Games.On.NetL - "if you really think feminism, or women, are destroying games, or that LGBT people and LGBT relationships have no place in games, or that games in any way belong to you or are “under attack” from political correctness or “social justice warriors”: please leave this website. I don’t want your clicks, I don’t want your hits, I don’t want your traffic. Leave now and please don’t come back."
Rock Paper Shotgun: "We do not believe that in any resulting greater equality anyone will suffer. Gamers will not lose out. Call Of Duty will still be released every November, with angry soldier men shouting “FUCK!” as they shoot down a helicopter. That isn’t going to go away. Instead we fight for greater variety in those resulting games. And we fight for safer, more friendly spaces in which they can be created. And we fight for a media that celebrates equality, and discourages cruelty and inequality. When anything gets in the way of that, we’re going to say so."
Badass Digest: "As Gaming Editor here, I get to play a lot of video games. I love the gaming medium; I think it’s got the potential to define the 21st century as much as film defined the 20th. I also get to experience the gaming community and industry, which can be a wonderful place. There are a lot of genuinely positive people out there making groundbreaking interactive art, and similarly positive people playing it. But it’s hard to self-identify as “a gamer” when there’s also a large swathe of that community apparently committed to presenting us all as a bunch of hateful sociopaths."
I agree with them 100% here, and the stance they're taking.
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Excellent post Kala thanks for some of the explanations of the story so far
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You're welcome, but I'd read around it and not take my feelings on the matter as any kind of last word on the story so far.
I'm sure someone will be around to disagree with my version of events any time now :P
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Well sometimes I just have to keep reminding myself we are still in the infant stages of the internets.
Eventually being able to anonymously tell someone they should be raped and murdered won't be a thing easily done.
People get awfully buck anonymously online, but put a real name and a face attached to things and it does a remarkable job of toning things down. (usually).
Those people who told Sarkeesian she should be raped, or were going to murder her, all have mothers, or sisters, or daughters, and maybe they should know what the men in their lives are saying. Perhaps a good project for some +10 lawful good hackers out there.
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People get awfully buck anonymously online, but put a real name and a face attached to things and it does a remarkable job of toning things down. (usually).
Those people who told Sarkeesian she should be raped, or were going to murder her, all have mothers, or sisters, or daughters, and maybe they should know what the men in their lives are saying. Perhaps a good project for some +10 lawful good hackers out there.
Interestingly, there was a story recently(ish) where a woman found out her husband of six years did some fairly nasty reddit trolling on the quiet to 'unwind'. She was pregnant. They broke up over it.
I'm a bit conflicted really, as I know the internet in many places is a hive of scum and villainy, but in other ways remains true to its utopian aims - things like Wikipedia, open source stuff etc.
I know it lends itself to faceless mobbing, but I wouldn't like anonymity online to go entirely...I'm a fairly private person in real life, so I'd probably be more reticent to speak out on things at all. I'm not on facebook or anything, and try and keep my online footprint small.
But then again, if doxxing is a thing, and people can find out my real life identity anyway if they've a strong enough need or want, what's the point anyways?
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Perhaps we should ultimately be able to stay 'anonymous' but with a singular identity that is constant.
So you can be Jane Doe 5569, but that anonymous identity follows you from online portal to online portal, for banning purposes or warning, etc.
There has to be a way to remove people and stop them from just creating a new acct with a different name, as is often the case with twitter trolls, etc.
That, or the 'google mail' style AI spam filtering will get intelligent enough that we just won't be exposed to such things. I must get 100's of spam emails a day but I wouldn't know it.
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As far as I knew, the issue which blew up bad was not at all about the original accusations re: Zoe Quinn and her boyfriends. That was a legitimate debate in its own right, and for the most part proceeded calmly and seemed to be more about gaming journalism than Quinn (to quote someone in another thread on the topic, "if this is true it reflects far worse on the boyfriends and the establishments they work for than on [Zoe Quinn] herself, who may not have even done anything wrong.")
The issue was that when the story began to circulate, pressure was placed on several sites to suppress discussion of the topic or outright silence criticism of the situation for various dubious reasons, most of which were based around the idea that it wasn't fair to include Zoe Quinn in the discussion (which ignores, in my opinion, that at the time the discussion was still more about gaming journlism than Zoe Quinn herself.
Simultaneously, Zoe Quinn made the poor choice to issue several baseless DMCA copyright takedowns against people criticizing her and the situation, triggering a full-on case of the Streisand Effect (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StreisandEffect). The most well-known example of this is was a video which she tried to have taken down because it "used a screenshot from her game" - the screenshot in question being an image of the game's publicly viewable web page.
People, of course, reacted rather poorly to this. This is when the "Us vs Them" narrative began to sink in, and the discussion slipped from "let's have a talk about issues of corruption in gaming journalism" to "OMG Gamers/4chan/ZQuinn/Tumblr [Pick One] are the devil!" Of course the loudest (and nastiest) voices got the most coverage, which only reinforced the Us-vs-Them narrative. By the time Sarkessian made the stepped into the fray, it was long since past the point for a wide-scale coherent discussion. I'm not sure why people latched on to her amid dozens of others saying similar things.
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Difficulty is that to do that it would have to be tied to your irl identity which leaves you open to doxxing. No the only real solution is to call out each and every shitheel separately and openly.
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It should also be noted that her game wasn't even remotely close to being greenlighted until she false flagged harassment claims against herself from a rather ridiculous image board that had nothing to do with her or gaming. Then suddenly the sympathy votes rolled in. Zoe Quinn may be the target of a lot of harassment, but she has also quite demonstrably been cynically using it for all it's worth and even faked it in at least one case.
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It should also be noted that her game wasn't even remotely close to being greenlighted until she false flagged harassment claims against herself from a rather ridiculous image board that had nothing to do with her or gaming. Then suddenly the sympathy votes rolled in. Zoe Quinn may be the target of a lot of harassment, but she has also quite demonstrably been cynically using it for all it's worth and even faked it in at least one case.
Would you mind linking to somewhere verifying re: she faked her own harassment?
Haven't been able to find anything on it, apart from things like these, which looks somewhat dubious to me
http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/post/96243319717/http-i-imgur-com-e8kfmnu-png-everyone-boost-the (http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/post/96243319717/http-i-imgur-com-e8kfmnu-png-everyone-boost-the)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwZIfMzCUAAjMAN.jpg:large (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwZIfMzCUAAjMAN.jpg:large)
obviously she herself has denied it.
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Those things are more recent. This was back before the whole Quinngate shite started and she was still trying to get her Depression Quest greenlighted and while I usually prefer being rigid about sources I just can't be arsed going back through several weeks of browsing history to find it in the middle of this particular shitstorm.
In short, she claimed she was being harassed by an obscure little image board catering to a fairly pathetic group of misfits just as it looked like her game wouldn't get greenlit. Tumblr/SJWs to the rescue, resulting in a staggering amount of greenlight votes in just hours. When the image board (I really wish I remembered the name) was perused by more level heads, it turns out none of them were even remotely interested in the game or Zoe Quinn and was mostly surprised to realize other people even knew they existed.
I can't recall all the details, but the research done on this event looked entirely convincing to me. Of course, you are entirely free to dismiss this as I really can't back it up without spending hours diving into a septic tank of horseshit to find the nugget, which I frankly can't be arsed to do.
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Considering that the internet decided that a gigantic rant posted by her ex boyfriend was gospel unquestioned truth I think skepticism about sources is justified
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In short, she claimed she was being harassed by an obscure little image board catering to a fairly pathetic group of misfits just as it looked like her game wouldn't get greenlit.
Ah, yes. Wizardchan! The -chan ain't there for show, too; it's a chip off the ole 4chan block.
Tumblr/SJWs to the rescue, resulting in a staggering amount of greenlight votes in just hours. When the image board (I really wish I remembered the name) was perused by more level heads, it turns out none of them were even remotely interested in the game or Zoe Quinn and was mostly surprised to realize other people even knew they existed.
I can't recall all the details, but the research done on this event looked entirely convincing to me.
Don't doubt it, since you're already assuming guilt. All the stuff I see looks like images cooked up by *chan-ers proving *chan-ers are on the side of the angels. It's a page out of the anti-Sarkeesian playbook, too; accuse the victim of faking or exaggerating harassment so you can justify further harassment!
Not even touching the 'woman fishing for attention/sympathy/Steam upvotes for Depression Quest' narrative. It's not like she gets a cut from the latter, anyway.
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Where am I assuming guilt? I looked at the information given and found it rather compelling, while the claims that Wizardchan had harassed Zoe Quinn looked rather unconvincing. You on the other hand seem to take the claim of harassment as gospel without any sort of evidence presented. I haven't seen anyone try to make out any *chan look like angels, least of all themselves.
You may not want to touch it, but the timing is hilariously suspect. Whenever they need a publicity boost, there's a claim of harassment or abuse including a lot of claims of being hacked etc and yet any sort of evidence mysteriously fail to materialize every damn time.
4chan etc causes a lot of shit out there, but pretending the cynical mobilization of the tumblrinas blubbering over their keyboards doesn't happen does no one any favors.
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Sooo...
That's Jenn Frank out.
https://o.twimg.com/2/proxy.jpg?t=HBgkaHR0cDovL3B1dS5zaC9kL2JrWEg1LzA3YjRlN2ZmYmEuanBnFPgIFOASABYAEgA&s=oP_m6I6lxFXs1kLG_uMfLl6_ulgPHgZvSqQPXKCOurc (https://o.twimg.com/2/proxy.jpg?t=HBgkaHR0cDovL3B1dS5zaC9kL2JrWEg1LzA3YjRlN2ZmYmEuanBnFPgIFOASABYAEgA&s=oP_m6I6lxFXs1kLG_uMfLl6_ulgPHgZvSqQPXKCOurc)
https://twitter.com/ToneDeezy/status/507407945064136705/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/ToneDeezy/status/507407945064136705/photo/1)
She wrote a Guardian Article on this.
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/01/how-to-attack-a-woman-who-works-in-video-games (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/01/how-to-attack-a-woman-who-works-in-video-games)
I think she kind of knew doing that might get her targeted.
It has a disclaimer here "Jenn Frank has purchased and is a supporter of Zoë Quinn’s work, although this is the first article she has written on the developer. Frank has also briefly met Anita Sarkeesian." That wasn't there originally. Some people were quick to accuse her of corruption.
However, she pointed out:
Recently I wrote a piece for The Guardian. Some of you wondered—on this blog, on Twitter, at the Guardian, on discrete forums and image boards, and in our inboxes—why the article, as it first appeared, did not disclose a relationship with Ms. Quinn.
The Guardian actually nixed the disclosure of my relationship with Ms. Quinn, simply because it didn’t strike editors or legal—that is, The Guardian’s legal department, which approved the final draft—as a “conflict of interest” in an op/ed about abuse. The publication determined the disclosure I provided didn’t matter, since my piece is not a review of her work, but a 500-word blog about Internet harassment.
In my disclosure’s original draft, I mention that I have never reviewed one of Quinn’s games (or, ever before, written about her at all) and that I am a supporter of her work. The Guardian piece, at my request, has been updated with brief remarks to that effect.
I hope this clears up any confusion.
http://infinitelives.net/2014/09/01/regarding-the-conflict-of-interest-in-my-latest-piece/#sthash.l1EO0YfW.dpuf (http://infinitelives.net/2014/09/01/regarding-the-conflict-of-interest-in-my-latest-piece/#sthash.l1EO0YfW.dpuf)
What.
The.
Fuck.
Apparently she was also reported on by Al Jeezera as an example of corruption, but it looks like they changed their minds (or fact checked) as that seems to be edited now.
Has the world gone nuts?
As someone mentioned "Imagine campaigning against corruption but targeting Jenn Frank and leaving Intent/IGN/Future management alone." :|
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What part of "tumblrinas blubbering over their keyboards" did I get wrong?
It's dismissive by gender, and a generally offensive term and sentence. Language matters, and your word choice reflects your diminutive opinion of those 'blubbering' women. You think little of them and you chose a word that demeans them. Did I get that wrong?
Being 'overly emotional ' is a pretty par for the course criticism used to minimize the opinions of women for many years. You're welcome to think their opinions are shit, but let's own it.
Ergo my reply.
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Ah, at last, thanks for explaining what this was all about.
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It's got shit all to do with women. Bloody hell, even Phil Fish is a blubbering Tumblrina and I doubt he's a woman. Tumblrina is a term encompassing the entire spectrum of overly emotional extremist SJWs that frequently swarm and attack anything that doesn't fall squarely in their own camp, named as such due to Tumblr being the primary source of these people pretty much the same as 4chan being the primary source of blunderbuss bullshit by entitled teenage shits.
It's dismissive of a subset of a community, no different from how above posters dismiss anything with *chan attached to it. I didn't see you start rewriting their posts.
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[mod]Thread locked for, among other things, excessive ad hominem, personal attacks, and the associated derailing effect that comes with them - the odds of this thread going anywhere but further downhill seem incredibly low, but we'll see whether it's going into the bin outright or being pruned.
Warnings and/or further punishments may be handed out to some participants in this thread after moderator discussion. Most of you should know better.[/mod]