I don't think Stitcher is this forum, so attacking his posts alone is poor form, by the way.I'm trying to summon him using Minmatar black magick.
The Amarr RPers are handicapping themselves by using what's presented by CCP so far. You should limit yourself to attacking the things presented in those same sources.
Are they? I've seen some interesting pamphlets. I've also seen all kinds of interpretations of texts used without the text having been sourced anywhere in PF. As for "me", I have yet to drag anything real life into Eve, but I still think it's a far superior method to everyone just getting to invent whatever they want.
As for crippling yourself by only referring to the tiny snippets in PF, that's just not doable in the RP referenced in the OP.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Scriptures
This should give people an idea of what the Amarr texts are like in terms of general themes. On a DUST devblog, the Amarr are mentioned to seek to perfect the amalgamation of science and religion. We can't forget the Amarr were the first in space, so they found out everything about astrophysics first. The Scriptures will likely cover science as how God makes the universe function logically. It might offend our RL sensibilities in having an extremely successful and intellectual religion exist as the foundation for the oldest continuous civilization in human history, but thats the PF. I also find making up believable fanon with a basis in the canon is preferential to using RL material that has no basis in the canon. It shows some imagination at least, and deserves credit for that alone.
I also 200% agree that the Summit and IGS is not r/atheism. Unfortunately, this won't stop people from using it as such to RP block.
I can definitely understand that concern. It's one that reared its head when I last looked through the IGS thread in question. I still think that if the RP in question is to happen (which is unstoppable at this point), then there needs to be some sort of common reference frame. Something both sides can use when debating this stuff. We can't have everyone just inventing whatever fits their own RP at the time, since that guarantees someone else being trod on and having their own RP shot down. In the same vein, we can't block some inventions while allowing others, since that ensures the same.
A common base to RP off of would be the best option and using the Abrahamic religions' scriptures would generally be the "fairest" option since everyone would have access to them and adjust them to fit the Amarrian RP. Just keeping out specific references (Moses, Jesus, Muhammed, the sermon on the mount etc) and just using the generic ones that fit any monotheistic religion means everyone gets to play on a level playing field that'd fit the Amarrian faith quite well.
As for the annoying and repeated complaints about r/atheism, that is frankly offensive and unwarranted. The atheist arguments and stances will very often come up in places like r/atheism, but that doesn't invalidate them nor the original sources r/atheism grabbed them from. They're used because they've withstood the test of time, reason and ceaseless attacks from different stances and viewpoints. Exactly how else do you expect atheist characters to debate these very subjects?
I can definitely understand that concern. It's one that reared its head when I last looked through the IGS thread in question. I still think that if the RP in question is to happen (which is unstoppable at this point), then there needs to be some sort of common reference frame. Something both sides can use when debating this stuff. We can't have everyone just inventing whatever fits their own RP at the time, since that guarantees someone else being trod on and having their own RP shot down. In the same vein, we can't block some inventions while allowing others, since that ensures the same.
A common base to RP off of would be the best option and using the Abrahamic religions' scriptures would generally be the "fairest" option since everyone would have access to them and adjust them to fit the Amarrian RP. Just keeping out specific references (Moses, Jesus, Muhammed, the sermon on the mount etc) and just using the generic ones that fit any monotheistic religion means everyone gets to play on a level playing field that'd fit the Amarrian faith quite well.
As for the annoying and repeated complaints about r/atheism, that is frankly offensive and unwarranted. The atheist arguments and stances will very often come up in places like r/atheism, but that doesn't invalidate them nor the original sources r/atheism grabbed them from. They're used because they've withstood the test of time, reason and ceaseless attacks from different stances and viewpoints. Exactly how else do you expect atheist characters to debate these very subjects?
Yeah, this. All of it.
"In the beginning all things were as one.
God parted them and breathed life into his creation
Divided the parts and gave each its place
And unto each, bestowed purpose"
- The Scriptures, Book I 1:4
As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea;
As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf;
Yet all under Heaven serve Me;
So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens.
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 3.19 - 3.21
There will be neither compassion nor mercy;
Nor peace, nor solace
For those who bear witness to these Signs
And still do not believe."
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10
I can see the point, but I can't quite agree. These Scriptures are supposedly quite publicly available and the entire debate is completely impossible to have unless you RP it as such. This means that the meager amount of scripture available to us just won't do and world-building has to be done. This means either pulling in real life examples or just inventing something entirely. The first one is rather balanced as it gives everyone a level playing field. The other completely skews things since everyone will just invent something that backs their own side and which will almost certainly go against how others want to view it.
Synthia, you'd already made up the Righteous Dress, and the Book of Demeanour, which is what Stitcher was referencing. Do only you get to decide what's in that piece of scripture? Do only Amarr bloc roleplayers get to make stuff up about their material? I don't think that should be the case.
I can see the point, but I can't quite agree. These Scriptures are supposedly quite publicly available and the entire debate is completely impossible to have unless you RP it as such. This means that the meager amount of scripture available to us just won't do and world-building has to be done. This means either pulling in real life examples or just inventing something entirely. The first one is rather balanced as it gives everyone a level playing field. The other completely skews things since everyone will just invent something that backs their own side and which will almost certainly go against how others want to view it.
Worldbuilding is not straw-manning.
"The Amarr religion is backwards, because early Jews and Christians were 'backwards' (given what is known today)"
You consider that a level playing field ?
Is it really such a problem that religious texts are referenced as the backwards and barbaric texts they without a doubt are?
The nature of the Scriptures was described as:
"we have the collected ramblings of people who mistook schizophrenia for demonic possession, felt that a powerful body odour was the best means to ward off the tormenting spectre of disease,"
This was challenged, and sources for these were asked for.
We do not feel that this was an unreasonable request, because while those attitudes were present in the beliefs of prehistoric jews and medieval christians, they're not something that's in Amarr religion.
Is it really such a problem that religious texts are referenced as the backwards and barbaric texts they without a doubt are?
:bash:
Please, please, please put down the Sam Harris for a bit. Please. This is what I'm talking about. If you can't look at this sentence and go "Gee, I wonder if some of the people here might end up offended", or see that and go "Man, I hope they are offended", then I am going to straight up tell you that this isn't doing this side of the argument any favors.
I can see the point, but I can't quite agree. These Scriptures are supposedly quite publicly available and the entire debate is completely impossible to have unless you RP it as such. This means that the meager amount of scripture available to us just won't do and world-building has to be done. This means either pulling in real life examples or just inventing something entirely. The first one is rather balanced as it gives everyone a level playing field. The other completely skews things since everyone will just invent something that backs their own side and which will almost certainly go against how others want to view it.
Worldbuilding is not straw-manning.
"The Amarr religion is backwards, because early Jews and Christians were 'backwards' (given what is known today)"
You consider that a level playing field ?
Given how every single bit we've seen so far about the Amarrian faith is equally barbaric and backwards? Yes.
Seriphyn: Yes, I agree. Using the known scripture bits would be preferred, but there's almost none of them around. They constitute such a staggeringly infinitesimal volume of text that they just don't suffice for the debates in question. Especially not over the course of Eve's lifespan.
Tiberious: While the religions aren't the same, the generic bits and pieces used and referenced so far are hardly lacking in "generic". They've been so vague that they can fit any monotheistic religion you'd want to name. I would in fact say that without the stupid bits (like shellfish and mixed fabrics), it'd wildly unrealistic. If the Scriptures are as vast as you claim (and I have no doubt that they are) they're likely to contain so much absolute tosh and drivel that the dumbest parts of real life's religions would pale in comparison.
And again, Synthia: You pull religious stuff out of thin air whenever it suits CTCS. At least Stitcher's arguments contain sources that actually exists somewhere, game or not.
Is it really such a problem that religious texts are referenced as the backwards and barbaric texts they without a doubt are?
Is it really such a problem that religious texts are referenced as the backwards and barbaric texts they without a doubt are?
The Amarr were a primitive people, once. They're still, in many important regards, a primitive people today. They're a theocracy that practices slavery for goodness' sake, what's clear about them from that is that they're not going to excise stuff from the scriptures for good, thinking, modern moral reasons, but rather because it interferes with the Theocracy's grip of power.
Snips
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Scriptures
Linking again. Use that to build IC atheist arguments. Example...Quote"In the beginning all things were as one.
God parted them and breathed life into his creation
Divided the parts and gave each its place
And unto each, bestowed purpose"
- The Scriptures, Book I 1:4
"Hey! God didn't give me any purpose! I define my own purpose, and no one has any place!"QuoteAs Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea;
As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf;
Yet all under Heaven serve Me;
So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens.
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 3.19 - 3.21
"Nobody serves anyone!"QuoteThere will be neither compassion nor mercy;
Nor peace, nor solace
For those who bear witness to these Signs
And still do not believe."
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10
"Your God is a warmongerer!"
It's not difficult.
Well... as was in the OP. "Minmatar Tribalism is full of atrocities on a larger scale than Rwanda. Sebiestor tribespeople set upon Brutor women and children with all manner of weapons, the slaughter was unprecedented.
The Amarr witnessed these tribal massacres and realised that only through invasion could these terrible crimes against humanity be ended."
You want people to make things like that up ? You really want to incorporate that into your RP ?
Are they? I've seen some interesting pamphlets. I've also seen all kinds of interpretations of texts used without the text having been sourced anywhere in PF. As for "me", I have yet to drag anything real life into Eve, but I still think it's a far superior method to everyone just getting to invent whatever they want.
As for crippling yourself by only referring to the tiny snippets in PF, that's just not doable in the RP referenced in the OP.
PIE Inc. has a very successfull and well known history or "crippling" ourselves with the "tiny snippets", thank you for disregarding the oldest still active corp in EVE, who is also the oldest RP corp... :roll:
The nature of the Scriptures was described as:
"we have the collected ramblings of people who mistook schizophrenia for demonic possession, felt that a powerful body odour was the best means to ward off the tormenting spectre of disease,"
This was challenged, and sources for these were asked for.
We do not feel that this was an unreasonable request, because while those attitudes were present in the beliefs of prehistoric jews and medieval christians, they're not something that's in Amarr religion.
Why not? The first settlers on Athra were canonically a cult of Catholic extremists, I consider that all the justification I need for ripping a few bits from the Bible and changing them enough to represent ten thousand years of translation, mutation and revision.
In any case, there have already been examples of people making up some of what's in the Scriptures. They define which specific bits of the Empire's scientific understanding are included in it, they talk about Saint So-and-So or claim that Scripture justifies or underpins their character's behaviour, even when none of the few scraps of Scripture we actually have mention anything of the sort.
Is that godmoding too? Because If they get to do that, so do I. I didn't claim that the bits other people have made up don't exist or aren't based in PF, so please don't do it to me.
All I've done is fold some of the wackier and less savoury parts of existing Abrahamic religions - on which Amarr is not just thematically based but historically derived according to the PF - into the argument.
You don't get to have a religion that's all nobility and niceness, not when that religion clearly and unapologetically endorses slavery. I'm sorry if you consider it godmoding when I rub a little dirt on, but given that nobody calls it that when I invent the names of Splinterz teams, or non-DUST infantry gear, or the names of cities on unimportant planets, or conduct an (inconclusive) experiment based on a theory I have about how Sansha's mind control nanites work, or hell, if I invent NPCs that my character is supposed to have talked to....
Why is it suddenly Godmoding when I describe some of the themes that I consider it perfectly realistic would appear in the Amarr Scriptures? I didn't invent quotes, I invented ways in which said quotes could be interpreted. I didn't provide imaginary chapter and verse when challenged, I said "go read your own damn holy book". I've bent over backwards to do anything more than detail-building.
The Amarr were a primitive people, once. They're still, in many important regards, a primitive people today. They're a theocracy that practices slavery for goodness' sake, what's clear about them from that is that they're not going to excise stuff from the scriptures for good, thinking, modern moral reasons, but rather because it interferes with the Theocracy's grip of power.
That means that wherever something in the Scriptures looks and reads a lot like Leviticus is very probably still there, and most people just sort of gloss over that it exists. It's not detrimental to the faith therefore the Theology Council never edited it out, and it sticks around like clutter in a busy house that nobody has the time to deal with.
I don't agree that I've been godmoding. I'm sorry if you feel that I have been and if it continues to upset people I'll have Verin quit the conversation entirely out of frustration, how's that sound?
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Scriptures
Linking again. Use that to build IC atheist arguments. Example...Quote"In the beginning all things were as one.
God parted them and breathed life into his creation
Divided the parts and gave each its place
And unto each, bestowed purpose"
- The Scriptures, Book I 1:4
"Hey! God didn't give me any purpose! I define my own purpose, and no one has any place!"QuoteAs Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea;
As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf;
Yet all under Heaven serve Me;
So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens.
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 3.19 - 3.21
"Nobody serves anyone!"QuoteThere will be neither compassion nor mercy;
Nor peace, nor solace
For those who bear witness to these Signs
And still do not believe."
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10
"Your God is a warmongerer!"
It's not difficult.
Again, this game is 10 years old, a lot of that sort of low hanging fruit has been used so much that its gone stale and moldy. You can't have 10 years worth of arguments off what...6 passages of scripture?
We should just beg Falcon to write up some sort of thing on 'this is what the Amarr actually believe, this is what their scripture actually says' because it seems really vague to me.QuoteWell... as was in the OP. "Minmatar Tribalism is full of atrocities on a larger scale than Rwanda. Sebiestor tribespeople set upon Brutor women and children with all manner of weapons, the slaughter was unprecedented.
The Amarr witnessed these tribal massacres and realised that only through invasion could these terrible crimes against humanity be ended."
You want people to make things like that up ? You really want to incorporate that into your RP ?
No, but as I said in my big long post on the first page, that sort of stuff only gets made up when someone is trying to view RP as confrontational rather then collaborative. I'm a big fan of RPing with people instead of RPing against them, as heated as the discussion with Nicoletta is, I have no problem with her OOC and if she came to me OOC and wanted to discuss the RP in that bring it to some sort of close for one reason or another I'd go along with it, because I RP to have fun, and its not fun to constantly be stepping on each others toes.
What I'm saying is this:
We as the players need to decide what can be considered canon and what cannot, when CCP doesn't give us much material to work with. Maybe the Amarr RPers should, dare I say it, make up scripture? The Minmatar have been doing this for ages with voluvals and clan politics and traditions, and our RP has still largely settled out into areas where we all agree. Internal disputes over the validity of XYZ thing are fun. We can't expect the game company to hold our hand and give us everything, they have limited resources, even compared to us honestly. Its up to us to be mature, and reasonable, and pick up the slack where they can't, and flesh out the universe from there. As an outsider looking in, I think a big problem with Amarrian RP has been an unwillingness to step outside of the core canon. Yes you can say 'but then people will make up things that just support their positions' but there needs to be some sort of baseline to work with, even if its "laced with dirty Amarrian propaganda"
yep. That's the setting.
yep. That's the setting.
So, whats your argument again? :lol: I mean, apart from "religion is evil" obviously :|
yep. That's the setting.
So, whats your argument again? :lol: I mean, apart from "religion is evil" obviously :|
Except the Minmatar are still tribalistic (Even if the tribes are nothing like Earth tribes), and the Caldari base their domestic and foreign policies off of ancient Raata stuff.
They're all backwards.
Also, no one is asking you to accept that the Amarr are sparkly fun time religionists, because they aren't. No one is asking you to accept them IC as good people, because they aren't in the vast majority of cases, according to our western standards.
I just don't think that using IRL texts in arguments with Amarrians is fair, tbh. They're the ones who are RPing the religion, let them define the terms of the engagement, since they're the ones invested in it, and meanwhile you can just keep your arguments more general. I think thats reasonable, unless you want me suddenly defining how Wayism works, or something, or telling the Minmatar what form their animism takes.
yep. That's the setting.
So, whats your argument again? :lol: I mean, apart from "religion is evil" obviously :|
Need more straw?
All I care to say is that the meta-discussion is rapidly becoming as unproductive and boring as the IGS thread itself.
Regarding that one, I find that the comparison to /r/atheism and the RL debate is actually pretty apt. In that I don't think either side will be convinced by the others' rhetoric any time soon, given the respective fighters' excellent skill at goalpost-moving, strawman-burning, argument by attrition and other such niceties that tend to appear in debates where neither side is willing to be convinced, or even agree on the delineation of the subject matter.
I suppose that's very realistic -- to the point where people seem to think nothing of dragging RL references into fiction without a second thought -- but I don't find it terribly interesting.
Y'all do a brah a solid and just call me when one side actually manages to convince the other, then tell me how they managed it? Thanks.
Also, no one is asking you to accept that the Amarr are sparkly fun time religionists, because they aren't. No one is asking you to accept them IC as good people, because they aren't in the vast majority of cases, according to our western standards.
I just don't think that using IRL texts in arguments with Amarrians is fair, tbh. They're the ones who are RPing the religion, let them define the terms of the engagement, since they're the ones invested in it, and meanwhile you can just keep your arguments more general. I think thats reasonable, unless you want me suddenly defining how Wayism works, or something, or telling the Minmatar what form their animism takes.