Backstage - OOC Forums
Archives => Katacombs => Topic started by: Julianus Soter on 20 May 2011, 12:47
-
Oh dear, I step away from the game to graduate university, and jade constantine makes 5 posts in an out of character forum trying to shape public opinion about a military campaign. What am I to do.
I'll update this thread in a bit when I get some free time. Until then, let's just say, Jade Constantine betrayed Ethan Verone IC and OOC, and Verone wasn't happy. Verone now wants to destroy Star Fraction. Verone and Rote Kapelle are working together. Rote Kapelle hates Star Fraction, IC and OOC. Rote Kapelle now fighting SF.
Oh, did I mention a mercenary contract wardec by Vice Industries against Moira? To the tune of 1.4 billion isk plus 10% commission for two weeks? Someone must not like us. Or thinks they need help in the current strategic situation.
Ironic that this corporation is Caldari Militia. Better hope SF isn't behind it. . . .
-
actually nvm.
-
Then you betrayed Verone.
Just to clarify things for the peanut gallery.
Jade edited his post. Initially it stated, "there is no OOC jade constantine". I don't believe I should be forced to edit my posts because other individuals edit theirs after making them.
-
Then you betrayed Verone.
Just to clarify things for the peanut gallery.
Comrade please chill out. You're posting whilst irate. If you believe there are factual matters to discuss I would suggest you kindly lay them out so they can be comfortably digested. The alternative is that this kind of posting is the thin end of the wedge...
-
I'm confused. What Jade Constantine did is a matter of fact and evidence. . .and Jade's failure to address it is a clear attempt to whitewash The Star Fraction while mischaracterizing the three other participants of this conflict.
Should I simply lay down on the ground like a snake and crawl to Jade Constantine's lap, while he posts an entire page of text on these forums? No, I believe I am morally obligated to clarify some of these issues for the general roleplaying community.
Verone will need to post here, or needs to grant me permission, for the specifics of this whole clusterfark to be revealed. I can't speak further on the details, but everything I've thus far typed in this thread is fully supported by chatlogs and combat data.
-
Okay... so here we go. Things from my point of view.
This will be long, drawn out, but gives every fact in my possession.
The first Evemail arrived, and intrigued me :
I'd like a chance to speak to you when you have a moment
From: Jade Constantine
Sent: 2011.05.13 01:28
To: Verone,
Please let me know when and if its convenient?
All the best.
Naturally, I followed it up :
Re: I'd like a chance to speak to you when you have a moment
From: Verone
Sent: 2011.05.13 01:29
To: Jade Constantine,
It's always convenient at this time of night.
Re: Re: I'd like a chance to speak to you when you have a moment
From: Jade Constantine
Sent: 2011.05.13 01:31
To: Verone,
You have auto reject on so please convo me when you have a moment ?
And convo him I did, becoming genuinely shocked :
[ 2011.05.13 01:31:27 ] Verone > Evening
[ 2011.05.13 01:31:30 ] Jade Constantine > Hello there, ... you are as much a nightowl as me then ?
[ 2011.05.13 01:31:34 ] Verone > Or morning rather, in all honesty.
[ 2011.05.13 01:31:54 ] Verone > Yeah, I have the most bizarre sleeping patterin in the world, thanks to shift work.
[ 2011.05.13 01:31:55 ] Jade Constantine > my excuse is contracting with us companies at the moment ;)
[ 2011.05.13 01:32:07 ] Verone > ah work it is then
[ 2011.05.13 01:32:31 ] Jade Constantine > yeah kicks the hell out of my sleeping patterns too though
[ 2011.05.13 01:33:06 ] Verone > such is life. needs must :)
[ 2011.05.13 01:33:36 ] Verone > still, it's not too bad. My girlfriend is in the states right now, so it gives us a chance to talk more.
[ 2011.05.13 01:33:51 ] Jade Constantine > yeah thats not so bad really
[ 2011.05.13 01:34:05 ] Jade Constantine > guess we're lucky to have jobs at all in this climate :)
[ 2011.05.13 01:34:31 ] Jade Constantine > anyways as judging from rl talk and such this is mostly ooc but with some ic connections potentially bah .. dunno where to start really
[ 2011.05.13 01:34:47 ] Jade Constantine > I guess I'll come out and say it :)
[ 2011.05.13 01:35:29 ] Jade Constantine > I'd like your advise on how to repair my reputation and general situation in eve's rp community
[ 2011.05.13 01:35:42 ] Jade Constantine > to cut a long story short I'm tired of rl feuds and ooc nonsense
[ 2011.05.13 01:36:03 ] Jade Constantine > amazingly after 8 years I still love this game and its community
[ 2011.05.13 01:36:08 ] Jade Constantine > and enjoy my corp and alliance
[ 2011.05.13 01:36:29 ] Jade Constantine > but I have gotten deeply bored of the feuds and virtual exile i've found myself in with rp circles
[ 2011.05.13 01:36:40 ] Jade Constantine > and I know we've had our arguments and hard words
[ 2011.05.13 01:36:55 ] Jade Constantine > but my gut feeling is you would appreciate what I'm feeling and motives behind it
[ 2011.05.13 01:37:00 ] Verone > water under the bridge, as far as I'm concerned, I have terribly thick skin.
[ 2011.05.13 01:38:01 ] Jade Constantine > well with me it tends to be more of a short attention span for arguments and such, i really don't get terribly into long term feuds truth to tell, eventually i forget what we were even feuding about
[ 2011.05.13 01:38:57 ] Verone > I'm just not one to hold grudges personally. There's only one person in Eve that I have a permanant issue with, and that's down to his threatening my corp members in London, and threatening to stab me.
[ 2011.05.13 01:39:11 ] Verone > Life's too short, in my personal opinion.
[ 2011.05.13 01:39:16 ] Jade Constantine > yeah it is
[ 2011.05.13 01:39:54 ] Jade Constantine > I've been trying to set something of a new note with my public roleplay last month or so and change some things
[ 2011.05.13 01:40:06 ] Jade Constantine > you know what I mean though
[ 2011.05.13 01:40:14 ] Verone > i've noticed, yeah.
[ 2011.05.13 01:40:15 ] Jade Constantine > when I say I am bored of the ooc tensions with people
[ 2011.05.13 01:40:36 ] Verone > and in all honesty I'm quite flattered that it's me you'd come to.
[ 2011.05.13 01:40:37 ] Jade Constantine > I'd rather find or rediscover a more enjoyable and productive level of interaction
[ 2011.05.13 01:40:59 ] Jade Constantine > well you are a pillar of the community to be honest
[ 2011.05.13 01:41:07 ] Jade Constantine > and thats not flattery just fact
[ 2011.05.13 01:41:17 ] Jade Constantine > you love this game
[ 2011.05.13 01:41:20 ] Jade Constantine > and the community
[ 2011.05.13 01:41:24 ] Jade Constantine > that much is obvious
[ 2011.05.13 01:41:38 ] Verone > Oh, I won't deny that... and to be honest, well, I just play, and try to help people enjoy themselves.
[ 2011.05.13 01:41:55 ] Verone > That's all I can do really :)
[ 2011.05.13 01:42:02 ] Jade Constantine > yeah and it works
[ 2011.05.13 01:42:16 ] Jade Constantine > my problem in many ways is just getting into too many feuds
[ 2011.05.13 01:42:25 ] Jade Constantine > i have mellowed a bit over the years
[ 2011.05.13 01:42:35 ] Jade Constantine > but still a lot of bad feelings remain amongst some
[ 2011.05.13 01:42:55 ] Jade Constantine > and I think a lot of people expect me to rip off the mask again and become a fuck
[ 2011.05.13 01:43:17 ] Jade Constantine > but truth be told, I'd rather rp an anarchist than be an ooc troublemaker these days
I'd post the rest of the chalog but it's long, much like most correspondence with Jade.
In short, I agreed to broker a ceasefire between Moira and SF, so that SF could walk away from RP based conflict and cut their teeth on a non RP entity, giving the RP community time to cool off and me a change to talk to people, resolve feuds on his behalf and try to get his access to all the OOC channels he's been banned from reinstated.
I put my neck out, when I could have just told him to fuck off, and was willing to help. I spoke to Soter, and he gave terms for a ceasefire, at which point I got back to Jade.
An Update
From: Verone
Sent: 2011.05.16 19:02
To: Jade Constantine,
I've spoken with Soter, and he's happy to organise a ceasefire IC.
He has several terms, none of which are very strong or really significant. Drop me a line when you're next free to talk and we'll talk about your terms and arrange an IC meeting.
Once we get this squared away and Moira are out of the picture i'll prepare a post for backstage, and take care of all your channel permissions over the coming week.
- V
Then, this (http://veto.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=47589) happened.
He then dropped an evemail to me :
Re: An Update
From: Jade Constantine
Sent: 2011.05.17 01:14
To: Verone,
Hey there Verone,
Well I remain as eager as before to resolve ooc issues since as we spoke - there really is no good side to all the nonsense and out of game spite.
I have also passed Soter's ceasefire suggestion to the Star Fraction membership and we will be voting on it over the next 24 hours.
I don't want to pour cold water but I have to say that I think its relatively unlikely that the majority of our members will look kindly on his words at this point.
Also the Veto gang that showed up to support Moira this evening sent a pretty strongarm message that I don't think will go down too well.
As an alliance we may not be the strongest but we have a great deal of pride in ourselves and our comrades and we can never really be forced to make peace by the show of strength by a third party.
Anyways - that said the message was passed on.
And I remain very hopefully we can resolve some issues and solve ooc problems but I think for the time being Moira will need to be off the table pending the decision of our captains.
All the best.
Jade.
My response :
Re: Re: An Update
From: Verone
Sent: 2011.05.17 02:32
To: Jade Constantine,
Firstly, the apparent conflict between Veto/Rote and SF tonight isn't my doing. We're working in tandem with Rote at present, and they were fleet commanding at the time. It was their call to attack. Our members were in gang.
As for SF, I'm aware that SF is a proud alliance, and I have no issue with that being so. I spoke with Soter at length today, and you'll probably actually want to hear what I have to say, the whole situation is amicable and will work out well in SF's favour.
I was really hoping we could work together to solve the issues you feel that SF are having. I know we've locked horns in the past, but I'd quite like to help in terms of getting SF re-integrated with the RP community.
I'm seriously dissapointed that you've decided to pull out of this, I was looking forward to seeing SF firmly back within the RP scene.
V
Re: Re: Re: An Update
From: Jade Constantine
Sent: 2011.05.17 02:35
To: Verone,
My guys feel quite strongly that Moira must die.
So *shrugs* - I guess thats what we'll be doing.
I'm a little unhappy with the ic / ooc crossover stuff and having a Rote Kapelle full of smack talking morons in Pelille didn't help.
End of the day I think I was fairly honest about my desire for a resolution but I think its unlikely really.
Even if Rote and Veto back Moira we will keep up the war and allow patience to have its own reward.
Re: Re: Re: Re: An Update
From: Verone
Sent: 2011.05.17 02:38
To: Jade Constantine,
I'm not bothered about Moira, they're not my problem.
Soter batphoned Rote when you guys started sieging the tower, and our guys were in fleet with them. We're not allied with Moira at all.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: An Update
From: Jade Constantine
Sent: 2011.05.17 02:43
To: Verone,
End of the day you helped Moira make an important kill and have delivered them an impressive morale boost. Because of the action the war will and must continue and we will now add you to the campaign stats and record your involvement as Moira allies - in terms of the ic war in space it is quite logical.
On other matters, *shrug* I don't think issues with rote are resolvable and so whatever really same old same old.
My final response to him :
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: An Update
From: Verone
Sent: 2011.05.17 02:52
To: Jade Constantine,
Well then, I'm afraid you've forced my hand.
It would have been nice working with you.
The IGS shitstorm (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=2#60) then assumed, after we also dropped this. (http://veto.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=47610)
Then Jade mailed me with this :
as a point of order
From: Jade Constantine
Sent: 2011.05.18 18:36
To: Verone,
I don't personally think it is very good play for you to refer to our ooc discussion with me asking for your help to resolve ooc personality clashes and old grudges in the player community in an ic conflict thread on IGS.
Your mileage may vary of course. And if you feel it is neccessary to bring this stuff to the table then so be it.
The problem we had here I think ... is that you wanted to bind the peace deal with moira to my ooc request for better general relationships with your aspects of the community.
As I explained to you I do not run Star Fraction as you run Veto. It truly is a democracy and I cannot overrule the decision of the members for my personal peace of mind.
Any chance of you being trusted as a negotiator on ic peace talks was lost the moment a single veto pilot turned up in support of moira shipping and was seen by my alliance - and I don't really think that should be too surprising.
I consider that I approached you honestly with an open heart but the attempt you made to bind ic and ooc outcomes together led to this situation worsening.
Ironically the people to suffer are likely to be the rank and file in Soter's corp several of whom did actually approach me in search of peace terms and a way out in advance of the events at the siege.
Veto/Rote involvement have ensured there will be no peace.
And on this occassion I have to say I don't feel the eradication of their corporation will be entirely be our fault.
If you had been wise enough to rein in your people (and/or) restrain rote for 24 hours anything might have been possible and I think the genuine desire on Moira's part for an end and fresh start might have won our captains over.
Now however they are just seen as sock puppets for Veto/Kapelle and any sympathy is long flown.
As I said to you, I did genuinely want a better degree of interaction on an ooc level,
but the last few nights of vile smacktalk and evident frothing lunatic hatred from Veto/Kapelle in local has proven such intentions were foolish and naive on my part and eve ... well, the game has a way of making lunatics out of the sane - I guess we just need to learn to live with that.
Andy.
My response :
Re: as a point of order
From: Verone
Sent: 2011.05.18 19:03
To: Jade Constantine,
I'm not particularly bothered about your view of my corporation, me, or how I run things.
The difference between myself and you, is that you actually care about people's public perception of your alliance. You have to because of the amount of times you take a shit all over people for no other reason than to fluff your ego.
On the contrary, we have the operational integrity to treat people with a base line of respect and decency until they give us reason to do otherwise by the use of dubious tactics and practices, rather than shitting all over them from the outset and gloating about it.
The fact of the matter is that we're NBSI, we have been for five and a half years, and we were flying with Rote because we're friends with them and they're our only blue. You've known about our NBSI engagement policy since the corporation was formed. It's no secret, we're pirates and opportunists.
I saw an opportunity to help you, and truly I'd have loved to do so. I was on the verge of having a resolution prepared that would have more than likely, with your assistance, ushered in a lot of change.
What happened with regards to Moira is simple.
Our members were flying with Rote, and we're both NBSI. We were presented with targets of opportunity completely by chance, and as opportuinsts we took the chance.
In our 48 hours of contact, I never once mentioned a ceasefire between Veto Corp, Rote Kapelle and The Star Fraction. My sole aim was to stop the conflict between SF and Moira so that we could move ahead with further plans on repairing your reputation and integrating SF back into the RP circle.
The outcome of the situation is simple.
You said you were willing to change, you said that you were making a concerntrated effort to clean up your act. In the last 48 hours you've done everything humanly possible to reverse any effect at all you've had.
You've started spouting bile all over the forums again, making personal attacks at people and throwing your percieved weight around as everyone has come to expect of you over the last 8 years.
I've wanted to help you, I believed you could change, but you've proved me wrong. People are laughing at the walls of meaningless text again, and the cycle has turned on its head and started afresh.
I wish I could help you, I really do. In the end though, you need to help yourself before anyone can do that. Sadly, I realise now that you're incapable of doing this, you're too caught up in this little bubble of false reality you seem to have created over the last 8 years.
I hope it bursts and you start to see sense, for your own sake. I've wanted to help you resolve these old feuds, but I can't do so until you help yourself by snapping back to the reality and gravity of the situation.
Regardless, it's no longer my problem. I've had well over a dozen pledges of support from RP entities wanting to give their guns to us. Many in response to wrongs you've done to them in the past. I've turned them all away, because I have no will to harm Star Fraction.
You forced Rote Kapelle into this conflict by including them in your pointless statistics, and now you've forced my hand in the same respect.
Any loss on your part, you have brought on your own people personally, due to your own egotistic inability to change for the better and accept help in doing so.
I extended an olive branch that was ignored and snubbed. I won't make the same mistake twice.
Please don't bother responding to this mail, your words will be met with silence, and it'll be forwarded directoy to my trash folder without being read.
I haven't the time for further chin wagging, rediculous finger pointing and pointless nonsensical correspondance from you.
From here the correspondence pretty much died off and went to the IGS.
And now it's time for a little clarification from our side of the fence :
For some reason there seems to be this misconception that we suddenly and heroically jumped to Moira's aid over the last few days.
Here's where our corporation actually came into the conflict. The abridged from our point of view :
> A Veto lead gang is out in space in lowsec Placid. It consists of Veto And Rote Kapelle ships.
> Soter speaks to Rote Kapelle leadership and says that if they want it, there's a few SF hulls bashing a tower in their home system.
> This filters through Rote's voice comms, where Rote are kindly hosting our joint ops so that we can trial Veto Corp out on Teamspeak 3 to see if we'd like to invest in a server (we currently have a Ventrilo server and some of our guys are having latency issues).
> The intel is forwarded to our gang lead through voice. There's not much going on, and our gang just got blue balled by a missioning carrier that logged off.
> With this in mind, our gang lead thought fuck it, lets go have some fun, spurred on by Rote Kapelle who seem to love killing SF.
> The joint gang heads over, catches SF napping and manages to nab the Tengu as SF flee the field.
> luls are had, people are happy they got on a kill, the gang moves on.
> I then receive a mail from Jade claiming we're actively working with Moira and are BFFs with them now.
> I laugh, and state that we took targets of opportunity. I was offline at the time of the engagement (14 hour shifts suck), one of our gang leads took neutral targets of opportunity and an engagement took place.
> Jade gets mad, again states that we're hand holding Moira, and basically claims it was some kind of pre-organised shot at SF.
> Jade then states that he's adding us to his campaign against Moira, as we're now apparently their BFF. Fair play, whatever. THey might get a couple of kills against us at some point to bolster their flagging campaign efficiency level.
> I head shake and correct him, he then goes to the IGS to try to :walloftext: a shitstorm and smear us, which ultimately fails given the fact we don't particularly care about his opinion of us.
> Yesterday, I decide to speak with Soter and give Moira temporary blue while we're in the area to stop his pilots being fired on by us. No disrespect to Soter and his corporation but we don't even remotely consider them a threat given our size and activity in relation to his own, and I'd rather them have one less pirate corp in the area to deal with while they're focusing on fighting SF.
> Rote Kapelle to my knowledge have not done the same and have traded some paint and ammunition with Moira in the last 24 hours as a matter of general operations. Fair play to them, Veto makes our own policies, as do Rote. We fly together and have fun, that's pretty much as far as the inter-alliance relationship goes. We have strong bonds with Rote given we have some very old friends there and the two entities have expressed an interest in flying together for some time now.
> We continue to operate alongside Rote Kapelle out of TXW, due to the fact that I wanted to give our guys a good initial taste of 0.0 . We continue to run joint operations with them, and will for the next couple of months at the minimum. It's a refresher for our guys who're rusty on 0.0 and a learning experience for those who've never been there.
So lets look at this objectively, stepping Veto and Rote Kapelle back from the situation given our minimal involvement :
Jade has personally and directly said to me via evemail that he wants to completely destroy Moira. His terms for resolution of the war some time ago to Soter when he approached them were that Jules would have to leave Moira, and they would have to remove all their fixed assets from space.
Lets looks at statistics and objectives, directly from SF's own source : (http://www.jericho-fraction.net/killboard/?a=cc_detail&ctr_id=37)
Julianus Soter's Removal : Incomplete
Removal of Moira's Fixed Assets In Placid : Incomplete
Destruction of Moira : Incomplete
The Star Fraction's Overall Combat Efficiency over the course of this conflict : 34.79%
The Star Fraction's Combat Efficiency vs Moira over this conflict : 29.9%
The Star Fraction's Combat Efficiency vs Rote Kapelle over this conflict : 7.72% ( not that this statistic really matters )
The Star Fraction's Combat Efficiency vs Veto Corp over this conflict : 0% ( not that this statistic really matters )
The Star Fraction's Combat Efficiency vs CVA over this conflict : 74.7% ( not that this statistic really matters )
Even with the statistics from Veto, Rote Kapelle and CVA in place, the overall percentages are heavily stacked against SF, and none of their stated objective are complete.
Looking at the fundamental statistics, the result of analysis is simple :
The Star Fraction is losing a war they started, against a corporation that can at the best of times field a 10-15 man fleet.
Why? Because the small corporation that they're faced off against has the common decency and dignity to treat the other organisations around them with a shred of respect and engage in reasonable and friendly dialogue without resorting to egotistical bullshit.
Moving back to Veto Corp, in the end it's a dictatorship and I have the final word on everything that happens in terms of corporate direction and operations. As our diplomat and executor, I can safely say that on the whole we see SF as posing zero threat to our operation capacity, and will continue to consider them targets of opportunity to be engaged in a free fire NBSI environment.
I'll probably poke my head in and read a little now and again, but honestly after the amount of bile that's been spat from the mouths of SF's member base over the last few days I'm not really interested.
These are the facts as seen from our side of the fence. No doubt Jade and his troop will selectively quote this post, mash up my words and twist them to what they want them to be seen as, or use them completely out of context, before offering a response.
Honestly? I tried to help Jade on an out of character level, by starting with the organising both in and out of character changes that could benefit and assist The Star Fraction and Jade himself.
My efforts were spat back in my face, and things were turned around on me to make me look like the aggressor and the asshole in the situation.
I'm not particularly bothered, we have far bigger and more juicy fish to fry which will provide the challenge that combined [VETO] and [STUGH] forces are looking for. We'll probably pop our noses into Placid every so often as we pass through to get to most of the lowsec backbone tat gives us our non-nullsec hunting grounds, other than that it's business as usual.
That's basically it from me on the subject, sorry for the wall of text.
-
Can I ask you to post the entire chatlog please Verone ?
Either that or give me your permission to post it for you?
-
* Goes back to concession stand for more popcorn*
This is why I'm a fan of as little OOC interaction as possible, btw.
-
Can I ask you to post the entire chatlog please Verone ?
Either that or give me your permission to post it for you?
Sure, I'll post it. I have absolutely nothing to hide.
It's quite long, and I won't shit up the forums with a huge quote so anyone who wants it can download the raw text file from megaupload here. (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=XAZ2NR80)
-
Sure, I'll post it. I have absolutely nothing to hide.
It's quite long, and I won't shit up the forums with a huge quote so anyone who wants it can download the raw text file from megaupload here. (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=XAZ2NR80)
I will take that as your explicit agreement to share the text log then and post it here.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Channel ID: -21616278
Channel Name: Private Chat (Verone)
Listener: Jade Constantine
Session started: 2011.05.13 01:31:15
---------------------------------------------------------------
[ 2011.05.13 01:31:28 ] Verone > Evening
[ 2011.05.13 01:31:30 ] Jade Constantine > Hello there, ... you are as much a nightowl as me then ?
[ 2011.05.13 01:31:35 ] Verone > Or morning rather, in all honesty.
[ 2011.05.13 01:31:55 ] Verone > Yeah, I have the most bizarre sleeping patterin in the world, thanks to shift work.
[ 2011.05.13 01:31:55 ] Jade Constantine > my excuse is contracting with us companies at the moment ;)
[ 2011.05.13 01:32:08 ] Verone > ah work it is then
[ 2011.05.13 01:32:31 ] Jade Constantine > yeah kicks the hell out of my sleeping patterns too though
[ 2011.05.13 01:33:07 ] Verone > such is life. needs must :)
[ 2011.05.13 01:33:37 ] Verone > still, it's not too bad. My girlfriend is in the states right now, so it gives us a chance to talk more.
[ 2011.05.13 01:33:52 ] Jade Constantine > yeah thats not so bad really
[ 2011.05.13 01:34:05 ] Jade Constantine > guess we're lucky to have jobs at all in this climate :)
[ 2011.05.13 01:34:31 ] Jade Constantine > anyways as judging from rl talk and such this is mostly ooc but with some ic connections potentially bah .. dunno where to start really
[ 2011.05.13 01:34:47 ] Jade Constantine > I guess I'll come out and say it :)
[ 2011.05.13 01:35:29 ] Jade Constantine > I'd like your advise on how to repair my reputation and general situation in eve's rp community
[ 2011.05.13 01:35:42 ] Jade Constantine > to cut a long story short I'm tired of rl feuds and ooc nonsense
[ 2011.05.13 01:36:03 ] Jade Constantine > amazingly after 8 years I still love this game and its community
[ 2011.05.13 01:36:08 ] Jade Constantine > and enjoy my corp and alliance
[ 2011.05.13 01:36:30 ] Jade Constantine > but I have gotten deeply bored of the feuds and virtual exile i've found myself in with rp circles
[ 2011.05.13 01:36:40 ] Jade Constantine > and I know we've had our arguments and hard words
[ 2011.05.13 01:36:55 ] Jade Constantine > but my gut feeling is you would appreciate what I'm feeling and motives behind it
[ 2011.05.13 01:37:01 ] Verone > water under the bridge, as far as I'm concerned, I have terribly thick skin.
[ 2011.05.13 01:38:01 ] Jade Constantine > well with me it tends to be more of a short attention span for arguments and such, i really don't get terribly into long term feuds truth to tell, eventually i forget what we were even feuding about
[ 2011.05.13 01:38:58 ] Verone > I'm just not one to hold grudges personally. There's only one person in Eve that I have a permanant issue with, and that's down to his threatening my corp members in London, and threatening to stab me.
[ 2011.05.13 01:39:12 ] Verone > Life's too short, in my personal opinion.
[ 2011.05.13 01:39:17 ] Jade Constantine > yeah it is
[ 2011.05.13 01:39:54 ] Jade Constantine > I've been trying to set something of a new note with my public roleplay last month or so and change some things
[ 2011.05.13 01:40:06 ] Jade Constantine > you know what I mean though
[ 2011.05.13 01:40:14 ] Verone > i've noticed, yeah.
[ 2011.05.13 01:40:15 ] Jade Constantine > when I say I am bored of the ooc tensions with people
[ 2011.05.13 01:40:37 ] Jade Constantine > I'd rather find or rediscover a more enjoyable and productive level of interaction
[ 2011.05.13 01:40:37 ] Verone > and in all honesty I'm quite flattered that it's me you'd come to.
[ 2011.05.13 01:41:00 ] Jade Constantine > well you are a pillar of the community to be honest
[ 2011.05.13 01:41:07 ] Jade Constantine > and thats not flattery just fact
[ 2011.05.13 01:41:17 ] Jade Constantine > you love this game
[ 2011.05.13 01:41:20 ] Jade Constantine > and the community
[ 2011.05.13 01:41:24 ] Jade Constantine > that much is obvious
[ 2011.05.13 01:41:39 ] Verone > Oh, I won't deny that... and to be honest, well, I just play, and try to help people enjoy themselves.
[ 2011.05.13 01:41:56 ] Verone > That's all I can do really :)
[ 2011.05.13 01:42:02 ] Jade Constantine > yeah and it works
[ 2011.05.13 01:42:16 ] Jade Constantine > my problem in many ways is just getting into too many feuds
[ 2011.05.13 01:42:25 ] Jade Constantine > i have mellowed a bit over the years
[ 2011.05.13 01:42:35 ] Jade Constantine > but still a lot of bad feelings remain amongst some
[ 2011.05.13 01:42:55 ] Jade Constantine > and I think a lot of people expect me to rip off the mask again and become a fuck
[ 2011.05.13 01:43:17 ] Jade Constantine > but truth be told, I'd rather rp an anarchist than be an ooc troublemaker these days
[ 2011.05.13 01:43:24 ] Verone > I think it's less of a case of the number of feuds you've gotten into, and more a case of the duration of them. If they last a long time, people tend to draw the conclusion that it's an out of character, rather than in character issue
[ 2011.05.13 01:43:37 ] Jade Constantine > well truth be told
[ 2011.05.13 01:43:43 ] Jade Constantine > a lot of them were ooc obviously
[ 2011.05.13 01:43:53 ] Verone > The Amarrian bloc are a perfect example, although I'm quite certain from a third party's point of view that there was some ooc animosity there
[ 2011.05.13 01:43:58 ] Jade Constantine > and of the stuff gets self reinforcing
[ 2011.05.13 01:44:08 ] Verone > that much is true
[ 2011.05.13 01:44:32 ] Jade Constantine > i mean I'm not a saint but also not the complete demon - but I do (or did) have a serious habit of answering back hard
[ 2011.05.13 01:44:43 ] Jade Constantine > when sometimes I should have just shrugged and walked away
[ 2011.05.13 01:45:36 ] Verone > oh, i'm guilty of that too
[ 2011.05.13 01:46:49 ] Verone > it's a tall order though, given how drastically some people have seperated themselves from The Fraction in general.
[ 2011.05.13 01:47:11 ] Verone > I think it'll take quite a sustained effort, over a long timeframe
[ 2011.05.13 01:47:45 ] Jade Constantine > yeah I can see that
[ 2011.05.13 01:47:51 ] Jade Constantine > one of the problems now
[ 2011.05.13 01:48:00 ] Jade Constantine > is that in essence we're kinda remote from the rp community
[ 2011.05.13 01:48:04 ] Jade Constantine > and exiled or whatnot
[ 2011.05.13 01:48:18 ] Jade Constantine > so there isn't really a place to interact much and regrow faith etc
[ 2011.05.13 01:49:08 ] Verone > I think that's generally due to the aggressive nature of The Fraction, not so much aggressive as in space, but more in attitude and the way the organisation is presented
[ 2011.05.13 01:50:59 ] Jade Constantine > well I've certainly been guilty of that
[ 2011.05.13 01:51:12 ] Jade Constantine > and ironically some have told me cosmo's approach isn't that much better sometimes
[ 2011.05.13 01:51:22 ] Jade Constantine > i think it was a trap
[ 2011.05.13 01:51:27 ] Jade Constantine > we fell into
[ 2011.05.13 01:51:31 ] Jade Constantine > arguing every case
[ 2011.05.13 01:51:38 ] Jade Constantine > and debating every thread
[ 2011.05.13 01:51:44 ] Jade Constantine > and raising to all bait
[ 2011.05.13 01:51:50 ] Verone > Yeah, that's part of the issue I think
[ 2011.05.13 01:51:51 ] Jade Constantine > it gets a bit much
[ 2011.05.13 01:52:04 ] Verone > I mean, in retrospect, we get baited a lot like that too
[ 2011.05.13 01:52:21 ] Verone > the difference is that 9/10 times we just don't rise to it, unless it's something that really does need addressing
[ 2011.05.13 01:52:35 ] Verone > and then it's generally one post, with the facts, and that's the end of it
[ 2011.05.13 01:53:37 ] Jade Constantine > I mean
[ 2011.05.13 01:53:45 ] Jade Constantine > I began to try to change my style
[ 2011.05.13 01:53:48 ] Jade Constantine > lasy year
[ 2011.05.13 01:53:59 ] Jade Constantine > when I resolved to ignore Merd
[ 2011.05.13 01:54:08 ] Jade Constantine > and not get into the cut and paste matches
[ 2011.05.13 01:54:27 ] Jade Constantine > but still can be difficult when people come for trolling etc
[ 2011.05.13 01:54:34 ] Jade Constantine > but I try to mostly ignore that now
[ 2011.05.13 01:54:47 ] Verone > I think ignoring anyone, or the situation is generally counterproductive. Shutting down to someone just alienates them further, i've found
[ 2011.05.13 01:55:51 ] Jade Constantine > but I mean how to deal with somebody like Merd?
[ 2011.05.13 01:56:03 ] Verone > don't rise to him, its' that simple
[ 2011.05.13 01:56:14 ] Jade Constantine > I have to be honest and say that kind of repetitive rhetoric debate just bores me rigid
[ 2011.05.13 01:56:44 ] Jade Constantine > Thats why I told him on backstage or such I didn't really like that kind of rp
[ 2011.05.13 01:56:50 ] Verone > best case, he backs off and realises you don't want to rumble, worst case he shuts you out
[ 2011.05.13 01:58:38 ] Jade Constantine > yeah I guess so
[ 2011.05.13 01:59:04 ] Jade Constantine > I think the deeper issue is probably interaction with the ooc rp community though
[ 2011.05.13 01:59:23 ] Jade Constantine > I've tried to be pretty friendly and unflamy on backstage for the last six months
[ 2011.05.13 01:59:24 ] Verone > in the end all it is, is a matter of changing people's perception, which isn't an easy task after so long
[ 2011.05.13 01:59:45 ] Verone > oh, that's been noticed, but in the same respect people are just waiting for it to flare up again
[ 2011.05.13 02:01:20 ] Verone > it's a tricky situation, but there's definately a way out of it
[ 2011.05.13 02:01:39 ] Jade Constantine > well I'd ask you to trust me, I think its unlikely to flare up again
[ 2011.05.13 02:01:56 ] Jade Constantine > I've mellowed, and a lot of the explosive points are probably long gone
[ 2011.05.13 02:02:41 ] Verone > i tend to agree on those points, and in all honesty, trust really isn't an issue. I have trust for people until they prove me wrong.
[ 2011.05.13 02:03:39 ] Verone > The only issue I see is that Jericho is coming up on eight years of operation, almost a decade, and a lot of this has been stewing since the beginning.
[ 2011.05.13 02:03:58 ] Verone > it's a tall order, but I certainly think it can be done
[ 2011.05.13 02:04:13 ] Jade Constantine > well jericho and sf have really spawned many many offshoots
[ 2011.05.13 02:04:17 ] Jade Constantine > the irony in some ways
[ 2011.05.13 02:04:32 ] Jade Constantine > is that much of the hostility that we still are credited with
[ 2011.05.13 02:04:40 ] Jade Constantine > was created when we had the stim guys in our alliance
[ 2011.05.13 02:04:54 ] Jade Constantine > and had that more aggressive attitute of "we're better than you"
[ 2011.05.13 02:05:05 ] Jade Constantine > circa mito war and the amarrian war cycle
[ 2011.05.13 02:05:23 ] Jade Constantine > but we honestly tried to move on from that when stim split off
[ 2011.05.13 02:05:46 ] Verone > Oh, I could see that
[ 2011.05.13 02:06:06 ] Verone > still, from working so closely with Stimulus, I could see the animosity was, and still is there.
[ 2011.05.13 02:07:54 ] Jade Constantine > well I honestly don't know how to resolve that at this point
[ 2011.05.13 02:08:09 ] Jade Constantine > nobody in our alliance still has any axe to grind
[ 2011.05.13 02:08:18 ] Jade Constantine > rote is just another alliance really
[ 2011.05.13 02:08:40 ] Jade Constantine > from what people tell me
[ 2011.05.13 02:08:58 ] Jade Constantine > the problem with stim is that sakura nihil feels that we insulted him by not disbanding
[ 2011.05.13 02:09:10 ] Jade Constantine > but not sure what I can do about that
[ 2011.05.13 02:09:17 ] Verone > I can talk to Bacch and Sakura directly about that, it's not a problem. We're very good friends.
[ 2011.05.13 02:09:45 ] Jade Constantine > well it can't hurt
[ 2011.05.13 02:09:48 ] Jade Constantine > end of the day
[ 2011.05.13 02:09:59 ] Jade Constantine > we are not in any way shape or form a competitior to rote
[ 2011.05.13 02:10:13 ] Jade Constantine > entirely different organization with different recruiting standards and levels
[ 2011.05.13 02:10:14 ] Verone > well the way i see it is that the situation can't really be any worse between you two, so it's worth a shot
[ 2011.05.13 02:10:23 ] Jade Constantine > and a much much less serious approach to pvp
[ 2011.05.13 02:10:39 ] Jade Constantine > I get they love the hardcore professional thing
[ 2011.05.13 02:10:50 ] Jade Constantine > we're obviously a lot more amateur
[ 2011.05.13 02:10:52 ] Verone > I tend to agree, that was my main worry working with Rote. We're far more casual about how we PvP.
[ 2011.05.13 02:10:55 ] Jade Constantine > but so is most of eve
[ 2011.05.13 02:11:56 ] Jade Constantine > its funny really
[ 2011.05.13 02:11:59 ] Jade Constantine > there was a moment
[ 2011.05.13 02:12:03 ] Jade Constantine > I think last weekend
[ 2011.05.13 02:12:10 ] Jade Constantine > when we shot up a rote raven
[ 2011.05.13 02:12:18 ] Jade Constantine > while fighting soter
[ 2011.05.13 02:12:26 ] Jade Constantine > and for a moment I was pretty pleased about it
[ 2011.05.13 02:12:34 ] Jade Constantine > then 30 mins later
[ 2011.05.13 02:12:42 ] Jade Constantine > Sakura came with a revenge gang
[ 2011.05.13 02:12:57 ] Jade Constantine > and pelille was turned into vile hatred smacktalk city
[ 2011.05.13 02:13:03 ] Jade Constantine > fag this fag that
[ 2011.05.13 02:13:17 ] Jade Constantine > swearing and asci penis posting etc
[ 2011.05.13 02:13:25 ] Jade Constantine > and I kinda felt
[ 2011.05.13 02:13:41 ] Jade Constantine > .... i'm too old for this shit
[ 2011.05.13 02:13:46 ] Jade Constantine > not interested
[ 2011.05.13 02:13:49 ] Jade Constantine > in fighting that
[ 2011.05.13 02:13:52 ] Verone > i get that feeling every day
[ 2011.05.13 02:13:54 ] Verone > lol
[ 2011.05.13 02:14:07 ] Jade Constantine > its just not worth the stress
[ 2011.05.13 02:14:16 ] Jade Constantine > i sensed
[ 2011.05.13 02:14:19 ] Jade Constantine > the raw hatred
[ 2011.05.13 02:14:33 ] Jade Constantine > and I honestly don't want to play games against people who hate me
[ 2011.05.13 02:14:45 ] Jade Constantine > i can't see the benefit
[ 2011.05.13 02:14:49 ] Jade Constantine > does that make sense?
[ 2011.05.13 02:15:27 ] Verone > of course, i can understand it fully
[ 2011.05.13 02:15:40 ] Verone > Thankfully I have just a select few who really do despise me
[ 2011.05.13 02:17:03 ] Jade Constantine > yeah
[ 2011.05.13 02:17:17 ] Jade Constantine > funnily enough I think again I inherited other people's feuds there
[ 2011.05.13 02:17:33 ] Jade Constantine > revan putting mercs on rote or whatnot years ago
[ 2011.05.13 02:17:59 ] Verone > well, yeah. Revan generally doesn't help the situation, no offence intended given your ties to her.
[ 2011.05.13 02:18:26 ] Jade Constantine > well she plays a different game and approach to diplomacy for sure
[ 2011.05.13 02:18:40 ] Jade Constantine > and relishes the dislike generated in a way I never really do
[ 2011.05.13 02:18:51 ] Verone > i've noticed :P
[ 2011.05.13 02:18:59 ] Verone > ah, i've never had an issue with her personally
[ 2011.05.13 02:19:13 ] Verone > she's midly vexed me a few times, but that's about it
[ 2011.05.13 02:19:25 ] Jade Constantine > few do who talk to her to be honest, she is very charming in person
[ 2011.05.13 02:19:34 ] Jade Constantine > but her character can be maddening
[ 2011.05.13 02:20:16 ] Verone > lol yeah, more than a few people have said it
[ 2011.05.13 02:20:49 ] Jade Constantine > that said she's giving eve a break again now
[ 2011.05.13 02:20:55 ] Jade Constantine > doing a university thing
[ 2011.05.13 02:21:08 ] Verone > probably a good idea for a while, if you're wanting to repair things
[ 2011.05.13 02:21:13 ] Verone > she can be quite the catalyst
[ 2011.05.13 02:21:36 ] Jade Constantine > yeah thats true
[ 2011.05.13 02:21:57 ] Jade Constantine > got to say she always did dislike jade doing any kind of diplomacy with anyone
[ 2011.05.13 02:22:40 ] Jade Constantine > thinking back on it last year was pretty damned crazy all round
[ 2011.05.13 02:23:14 ] Jade Constantine > what with the providence campaign and us having tomahawk bliss in the alliance and he and revan intriguing all the time at cross purposes to the rest of us
[ 2011.05.13 02:24:02 ] Verone > yeah, tomahawk can also be somewhat of a catalyst at times too
[ 2011.05.13 02:24:14 ] Jade Constantine > well he was a bit of a nightmare tbh
[ 2011.05.13 02:24:26 ] Jade Constantine > we had 2 months of fighting about the management of the alliance internally
[ 2011.05.13 02:24:28 ] Verone > i think he's the person i've locked horns most savagely with in JF
[ 2011.05.13 02:24:52 ] Jade Constantine > then he decided to try to rip it to pieces because i wouldn't give him the keys to the alliance in an executor corp
[ 2011.05.13 02:24:58 ] Verone > Yeah, i heard about the infighting, and the issues back then
[ 2011.05.13 02:26:14 ] Jade Constantine > yeah it spelled the end of icarus and dx4 unfortunately
[ 2011.05.13 02:26:21 ] Jade Constantine > and stand
[ 2011.05.13 02:26:42 ] Jade Constantine > I guess you noticed his final blows in the PL forum leaks as well?
[ 2011.05.13 02:26:49 ] Verone > heh
[ 2011.05.13 02:26:51 ] Verone > :)
[ 2011.05.13 02:26:59 ] Verone > i generally don't miss a great deal of things
[ 2011.05.13 02:27:08 ] Jade Constantine > bizarre really
[ 2011.05.13 02:27:18 ] Jade Constantine > tbh we were lucky to come out of that with an alliance at all
[ 2011.05.13 02:28:44 ] Verone > yeah, it's generally a close call when you have issues that large
[ 2011.05.13 02:29:54 ] Verone > i'm kind of trying to brainstorm and think of ways we can look at this
[ 2011.05.13 02:31:31 ] Jade Constantine > cool, I mean basically I'd like to resolve all kinds of ooc stress really and bury the hatchet on an ooc level with everyone eventually
[ 2011.05.13 02:34:51 ] Verone > i'm actually talking to bacch a little now, since we're out in syndicate with them
[ 2011.05.13 02:34:55 ] Verone > and he's very receptive
[ 2011.05.13 02:35:27 ] Jade Constantine > good stuff
[ 2011.05.13 02:36:07 ] Jade Constantine > despite our parting of the ways, he was always a good comrade to have in a fleet thats for sure
[ 2011.05.13 02:37:52 ] Verone > i tend to agree, it's just a case of how we can approach the situation and what exactly you're looking for in terms of a resolution with everyone
[ 2011.05.13 02:38:52 ] Jade Constantine > well from my point of view
[ 2011.05.13 02:39:08 ] Jade Constantine > I'd like an end to the ooc hatred and narkiness as widely as possible
[ 2011.05.13 02:39:33 ] Jade Constantine > with the pledge that I will do my level best to avoid it and prevent that stuff happening from our end also
[ 2011.05.13 02:39:49 ] Jade Constantine > I'd also like some bridges rebuild with the wider rp community
[ 2011.05.13 02:40:15 ] Jade Constantine > and basically reduce the alienation / exiled status of the Fraction on an ooc level certainly
[ 2011.05.13 02:40:36 ] Jade Constantine > quid pro quo on that
[ 2011.05.13 02:40:50 ] Jade Constantine > is that we've a decent group of helpful, mature, players
[ 2011.05.13 02:40:56 ] Jade Constantine > who are actually good fun to interact with
[ 2011.05.13 02:41:29 ] Jade Constantine > and its a shame really for the perception that the rp community is somehow a minor elitest clique to turn them off
[ 2011.05.13 02:44:50 ] Verone > well, i'm kind of trying to think of how i can put this without sounding like a cock
[ 2011.05.13 02:44:52 ] Verone > hahaha
[ 2011.05.13 02:45:41 ] Verone > i've been talking to bacch just there, and he may contact you to talk, soon enough, potentially atan too, depending on how they feel about things. in all honesty, bacch doesn't really seem to have an issue with you
[ 2011.05.13 02:46:25 ] Jade Constantine > yeah I never really felt he would
[ 2011.05.13 02:46:33 ] Verone > i'm unsure of how to put this, so i'll just use my direct fashion, because i'm pretty much at a loss, and generally my diplomacy involved a Neutron Blaster Cannon II, in all honesty.
[ 2011.05.13 02:47:57 ] Verone > coming from a third party, and someone who's generally just watched the vast majority of these feuds in the past, the general consensus of the RP community seems to be that SF consider themselves on a higher plane, intellectually....
[ 2011.05.13 02:48:32 ] Verone > ... than the vast majority of the rest of eve's RP circle. In short, people seem to consider the attitude that SF has as heavily elitist
[ 2011.05.13 02:48:44 ] Jade Constantine > its ironic isn't it
[ 2011.05.13 02:49:02 ] Jade Constantine > that both sides tend to see themselves as being the victims of intellectual elitism
[ 2011.05.13 02:49:03 ] Verone > it is yeah, but, whether you agree with that assessment or not personally, that's how most people's perception is
[ 2011.05.13 02:49:17 ] Jade Constantine > I do understand why it gets that way
[ 2011.05.13 02:49:22 ] Jade Constantine > or looks it
[ 2011.05.13 02:49:28 ] Jade Constantine > And as I said
[ 2011.05.13 02:49:38 ] Jade Constantine > neither I nor cosmo do ourselves many favours
[ 2011.05.13 02:49:44 ] Jade Constantine > with our forum tactics sometimes
[ 2011.05.13 02:50:12 ] Jade Constantine > I'm pretty rhetorically overwhelming while cos is a logical monster
[ 2011.05.13 02:50:16 ] Verone > I agree completely, but believe me when i say, that there's still a lot of respect buried deep down for Star Fraction, given the length of time the corporation has been around, and the length of time that JF/SF has been involved with the RP community
[ 2011.05.13 02:50:36 ] Jade Constantine > yeah thats what makes me wish
[ 2011.05.13 02:50:41 ] Jade Constantine > to re-engage more
[ 2011.05.13 02:50:48 ] Jade Constantine > in a more productive fashion
[ 2011.05.13 02:50:56 ] Jade Constantine > I have been personally impressed
[ 2011.05.13 02:51:00 ] Jade Constantine > by backstage actually
[ 2011.05.13 02:51:04 ] Verone > regardless of the state of affairs, and what situation the corporation and alliance find themselves in, internally.
[ 2011.05.13 02:51:05 ] Jade Constantine > I was hugely cynical
[ 2011.05.13 02:51:20 ] Jade Constantine > of that forum given the people involved in the management etc
[ 2011.05.13 02:51:26 ] Verone > I was too, because to be frank, chatsubo turned into an enormous shitfest.
[ 2011.05.13 02:51:38 ] Jade Constantine > but I have to say that place and the more or less even handed moderation
[ 2011.05.13 02:51:43 ] Jade Constantine > there
[ 2011.05.13 02:51:50 ] Jade Constantine > made me a change a lot of my opinions
[ 2011.05.13 02:52:05 ] Jade Constantine > and see things more openly
[ 2011.05.13 02:52:05 ] Verone > and this an perfect example of why things to do need to change, because when you pull away the veil, there are reasonably people under there
[ 2011.05.13 02:52:08 ] Verone > yourself included.
[ 2011.05.13 02:52:21 ] Jade Constantine > agreed
[ 2011.05.13 02:53:00 ] Verone > again i'm going to be direct, and i'm going to use words in the same fashion i always do, so i'll be somewhat harsh most likely
[ 2011.05.13 02:53:35 ] Verone > i think stage one of the process needs to be for you to not only swallow your pride by coming here to me, but swallow your pride on an out of character level with the RP community.
[ 2011.05.13 02:53:55 ] Verone > there are two sides to every story in Eve, and in this case, there's been wrong done on both sides, and people victimised on both sides.
[ 2011.05.13 02:54:45 ] Jade Constantine > I was making quite an obvious move in that direction with my truth and reconciliation thread - though with an ic flavour
[ 2011.05.13 02:55:09 ] Verone > Yeah, the flavour needs to turn to be out of character now. But we still have an issue
[ 2011.05.13 02:55:29 ] Verone > and it's the TL;DR culture that has grown around SF annoucements and posts by SF members.
[ 2011.05.13 02:56:06 ] Jade Constantine > you mean in that people simply don't read them ?
[ 2011.05.13 02:57:14 ] Verone > pretty much, or they skim over them, get skewed facts, and don't see the picture. Frankly, not to insult you, if you make a release to the Eve-O forums, it's going to get flamed to all hell and back with not a lot of people actually digeesting it.
[ 2011.05.13 02:57:44 ] Jade Constantine > well I don't really think its possible to put something ooc on the eve-o forums
[ 2011.05.13 02:57:48 ] Verone > in the same respect, to a slightly lesser degree the same is going to happen on backstage, because of previous issues with chatsubo
[ 2011.05.13 02:58:00 ] Verone > oh god, i tend to agree, it's a shitstorm on the best of days.
[ 2011.05.13 02:58:21 ] Jade Constantine > I'm doing my best *gently* with the change of ic mood
[ 2011.05.13 02:58:26 ] Jade Constantine > with jade's postings
[ 2011.05.13 02:58:38 ] Jade Constantine > and not getting into arguments with the usual trolly people
[ 2011.05.13 02:58:39 ] Verone > i tend to agree, and i've noticed a definate change
[ 2011.05.13 02:58:53 ] Jade Constantine > this thing with moira for example
[ 2011.05.13 02:59:13 ] Jade Constantine > we took a full decision not to get fully involved in the too and through there
[ 2011.05.13 02:59:25 ] Jade Constantine > and let other people have their say
[ 2011.05.13 02:59:42 ] Verone > which was a good move.
[ 2011.05.13 02:59:59 ] Jade Constantine > though truth be told it is a bit of a funny of war motive when you know what its about :)
[ 2011.05.13 03:00:19 ] Verone > in all honesty, from an out of character perspective i'd have chosen a different path
[ 2011.05.13 03:00:33 ] Jade Constantine > regarding the war?
[ 2011.05.13 03:00:38 ] Verone > yep
[ 2011.05.13 03:00:47 ] Jade Constantine > well its not actually a primary campaign for us
[ 2011.05.13 03:00:57 ] Jade Constantine > the only reason we wardecced moira
[ 2011.05.13 03:01:05 ] Verone > oh yeah, i can agree with that, but there's a level of animosity between the RP community and SF still.
[ 2011.05.13 03:01:16 ] Jade Constantine > was because Julianus was trying to gcc bait our members while we were fighting pirates
[ 2011.05.13 03:01:35 ] Verone > yeah, i'm aware of this. I hear things :P
[ 2011.05.13 03:01:35 ] Jade Constantine > the irony is its there purely to stop him messing with our trainees and getting them to flag
[ 2011.05.13 03:01:45 ] Verone > understandable
[ 2011.05.13 03:01:54 ] Verone > What I woud suggest, if you really want to turn this around is doing something different completely for a while
[ 2011.05.13 03:02:10 ] Jade Constantine > well tbh
[ 2011.05.13 03:02:12 ] Verone > This is going to sound like a daft concept, but hear me out
[ 2011.05.13 03:02:17 ] Jade Constantine > thats what we've come to placid to do
[ 2011.05.13 03:03:22 ] Verone > Allow the fresher of the wounds to heal. Have Star Fraction sharpen its teeth outside the RP community. Select a target that isn't even involved with the RP scene, and give them a beating. Keep it an out of character war.
[ 2011.05.13 03:03:53 ] Verone > In terms of hostile interaction, have a few months where you completely leave the RP community alone, so that there's nothing FOR people to snipe at on the IGS about
[ 2011.05.13 03:04:08 ] Jade Constantine > that is really what we came here to do
[ 2011.05.13 03:04:20 ] Jade Constantine > we intended to spent the majority of our time fighting the local pirates
[ 2011.05.13 03:04:52 ] Jade Constantine > and look to rebuild some ties to parts of the rp community ... perhaps intaki separatism
[ 2011.05.13 03:04:53 ] Verone > but moira are an RP entity, and that's where the attention comes from.
[ 2011.05.13 03:05:13 ] Jade Constantine > yeah thats unfortunate in a way
[ 2011.05.13 03:05:14 ] Verone > before you can do that, the OOC animosity needs to cool off
[ 2011.05.13 03:05:22 ] Jade Constantine > but they were getting in the way of our pirate hunting
[ 2011.05.13 03:05:34 ] Verone > and I know how we can fix that, the RP community and SF just need the breathing space in the meantime
[ 2011.05.13 03:06:00 ] Jade Constantine > its possible moira could get themselves out of the war if they pledge not to mess with our general operations etc
[ 2011.05.13 03:06:18 ] Jade Constantine > we had absolutely no interest in shooting them before they provoked etc
[ 2011.05.13 03:06:52 ] Verone > I'll speak to Soter, again, i speak with him quite a bit
[ 2011.05.13 03:07:13 ] Jade Constantine > it is another strange irony really
[ 2011.05.13 03:07:18 ] Jade Constantine > that they are anti pirates
[ 2011.05.13 03:07:22 ] Jade Constantine > and we're shooting pirates
[ 2011.05.13 03:07:38 ] Jade Constantine > and wardeccing each other because we're getting in the way of each other shooting pirates
[ 2011.05.13 03:07:45 ] Jade Constantine > on one level you have to laugh
[ 2011.05.13 03:08:09 ] Verone > well, I can play the IC angle with Soter
[ 2011.05.13 03:08:14 ] Verone > since i'm a Moira. shareholder
[ 2011.05.13 03:08:40 ] Jade Constantine > how does that work given their anti pirate roleplay?
[ 2011.05.13 03:09:32 ] Verone > I'll speak with him, he agrees to remain neutral and cut hostilities with you, allowing you to pirate hunt, in return, you drop the war declaration and go about your business, and the two entities leave eachother alone.
[ 2011.05.13 03:10:13 ] Verone > the conflict can come to a mutual close, and I can make an announcement regarding it, as a broker between the two entities and a Moira shareholder. Because lets face, it sooner or later that black bottom line may turn red.
[ 2011.05.13 03:10:33 ] Jade Constantine > yeah its a strange war really
[ 2011.05.13 03:10:42 ] Verone > i can do that no issue
[ 2011.05.13 03:11:03 ] Jade Constantine > moira are keeping their head above water k/d ratio wise but at the cost of not being able to operate at all
[ 2011.05.13 03:11:13 ] Verone > and organise an IC meeting to resolve the problem between the pair of you IC, without firing a shot.
[ 2011.05.13 03:11:22 ] Verone > that's not a problem at all
[ 2011.05.13 03:12:09 ] Jade Constantine > well will be interesting certainly, I don't mind addressing IC to Soter what the reason for the war is ... I have the impression he doesn't yet realize
[ 2011.05.13 03:12:45 ] Verone > well, i'm sure that IC i can broker a deal so long as both parties are receptive.
[ 2011.05.13 03:13:45 ] Jade Constantine > well we can certainly do a meeting and discussion
[ 2011.05.13 03:13:45 ] Verone > so, if you're interested in me assisting helping turn things around, I have somewhat of a game plan.
[ 2011.05.13 03:14:15 ] Jade Constantine > on another note
[ 2011.05.13 03:14:25 ] Jade Constantine > is the in game ooc channel still used ?
[ 2011.05.13 03:14:33 ] Verone > yeah, it's still used
[ 2011.05.13 03:14:48 ] Jade Constantine > I think i've been banned from that for years
[ 2011.05.13 03:14:56 ] Jade Constantine > who runs it now days ?
[ 2011.05.13 03:15:00 ] Verone > i can fix that without issue
[ 2011.05.13 03:15:15 ] Verone > i'm not a moderator, but i'm well aware of quite a few of them and i can speak with them
[ 2011.05.13 03:15:21 ] Jade Constantine > yeah that would be good actually
[ 2011.05.13 03:15:59 ] Jade Constantine > I would like to advise a bunch of our people with an interest in rp
[ 2011.05.13 03:16:08 ] Jade Constantine > to use that channel and introduce themselves to people
[ 2011.05.13 03:16:20 ] Jade Constantine > it can't hurt to build some bridges
[ 2011.05.13 03:16:26 ] Verone > i tend to agree
[ 2011.05.13 03:16:54 ] Verone > so, I'll put forward the idea that I have in terms of how we can change the situation, and see what you think.
[ 2011.05.13 03:17:51 ] Jade Constantine > right o
[ 2011.05.13 03:17:57 ] Verone > Firstly, i'll talk to soter out of character and explain the situation, he's a good friend of mine. From there I'll organise an IC meeting with Ethan as a medium for talks on the end of hostilities. This will involve BOTH parties swallowing pride.
[ 2011.05.13 03:19:01 ] Verone > from there, pending success, SF will need to back off from hostile RP for a number of months while we work on the situation. Go wardec some non-RP corp and train your new guys in highsec, or take a jaunt to non PR nullsec
[ 2011.05.13 03:19:11 ] Verone > whatever works, just keep distance from RP community hostility
[ 2011.05.13 03:19:22 ] Verone > When the issue with the moira war is complete
[ 2011.05.13 03:19:51 ] Verone > given the fact that the TL;DR culture is there, and is ingrained in the community, i'll make a call on backstage, to everyone.
[ 2011.05.13 03:20:30 ] Verone > i'll directly address the issue, and detail the problem, we'll take the bull by the horns, because as arrogant as it might sound, I know that people will read what I write.
[ 2011.05.13 03:21:24 ] Verone > whether they choose to act on it, is their own call, but it'll be presented in a manner in which they will pretty much have to do so, or they're putting their own neck on the block, so to speak
[ 2011.05.13 03:22:09 ] Jade Constantine > well I think its a good idea, the ooc needle and feuding really helps nobody at this point
[ 2011.05.13 03:22:10 ] Verone > meanwhile, i think the Stim issue will be discussed, and bacch and atan may contact you, or i'll speak with them further, the stim issue really is one of the ugliest heads of the hydra so to speak, in the situation.
[ 2011.05.13 03:22:18 ] Verone > i tend to agree
[ 2011.05.13 03:22:30 ] Jade Constantine > yeah the stim stuff would be good tp put to bed
[ 2011.05.13 03:22:42 ] Verone > and in all honesty, i've got no issue with helping out, because the RP community really does need to be kicked in the arse and united
[ 2011.05.13 03:22:49 ] Verone > there's a lot of potential going to waste
[ 2011.05.13 03:23:02 ] Jade Constantine > its always been a bit ridiculous having ideologically similar people being massively opposed due to ancient ooc feuds
[ 2011.05.13 03:23:04 ] Jade Constantine > and yes
[ 2011.05.13 03:23:12 ] Jade Constantine > the rp community being opposed and hating each other
[ 2011.05.13 03:23:15 ] Jade Constantine > is silly
[ 2011.05.13 03:23:35 ] Jade Constantine > when there are other corrosive aspects of the community we really should be united in the face of
[ 2011.05.13 03:23:47 ] Verone > i completely agree
[ 2011.05.13 03:24:07 ] Jade Constantine > I think us old time eve addicts do need a bit of solidarity
[ 2011.05.13 03:24:33 ] Verone > i agree completely
[ 2011.05.13 03:24:40 ] Verone > it feels like i've been here forever, frankly.
[ 2011.05.13 03:25:04 ] Jade Constantine > its incredible sometimes ... heh, my character is so old :)
[ 2011.05.13 03:25:37 ] Verone > hell of an employment history roo
[ 2011.05.13 03:25:39 ] Verone > too*
[ 2011.05.13 03:25:53 ] Jade Constantine > though I do feel renewed a bit by the lovely new portrait
[ 2011.05.13 03:26:02 ] Verone > haha
[ 2011.05.13 03:26:10 ] Verone > don't even talk to me about this damned mohawk.
[ 2011.05.13 03:26:36 ] Jade Constantine > you'll need for walking in stations hairdressers :)
[ 2011.05.13 03:26:49 ] Verone > yeah, that's one of the first trips i'll be making.
[ 2011.05.13 03:27:01 ] Verone > back to the situation at hand though
[ 2011.05.13 03:27:20 ] Jade Constantine > whereas I'm sure I'll be blowing billions on some exotic kimono
[ 2011.05.13 03:28:10 ] Verone > i'm working the next three nights after tonight, 18:00-06:00 eve time, meaning i finish on monday morning, 06:00. I'll try to catch soter over these three days, and speak to him ooc
[ 2011.05.13 03:28:31 ] Verone > that'll be with a view to organising an IC meeting for monday or tuesday, and explaining the situation to him.
[ 2011.05.13 03:28:56 ] Jade Constantine > okay
[ 2011.05.13 03:29:09 ] Verone > once we get the moira situation levelled, that's where you come in, by taking SF on it's little jaunt, at the same time I'll prepare a rather lengthly and detailed appraisal of the situation for Backstage
[ 2011.05.13 03:29:22 ] Verone > I'll have it put in the MOTD of every ooc channel i know of, once it's up and posted
[ 2011.05.13 03:29:27 ] Verone > so that's it's heavily visible.
[ 2011.05.13 03:30:04 ] Jade Constantine > well fortunately we're in the ideal place for what we came here for - fighting pirates in placid - ost is a lovely base
[ 2011.05.13 03:30:10 ] Verone > and from there we'll guage the community's reaction, if anyone wants to turn it into a slagging match, i'll have them put down so hard by backstage's mods that when they wake up their clothes will be out of style.
[ 2011.05.13 03:30:18 ] Jade Constantine > heh
[ 2011.05.13 03:30:52 ] Verone > ironically i've ever had need to use the contact i have with so many members of the rp community
[ 2011.05.13 03:31:06 ] Verone > but i think this is a very worthwhile cause and we can do a lot of good.
[ 2011.05.13 03:31:17 ] Jade Constantine > well fingers crossed it will cause some genuine good
[ 2011.05.13 03:31:26 ] Verone > oh, i think it will
[ 2011.05.13 03:31:36 ] Verone > i have no fucking idea why people listen to me, but they do
[ 2011.05.13 03:32:46 ] Jade Constantine > well people have to listen to somebody :)
[ 2011.05.13 03:33:13 ] Verone > yeah, i guess so
[ 2011.05.13 03:33:14 ] Verone > :D
[ 2011.05.13 03:33:28 ] Verone > i think that's how we should proceed
[ 2011.05.13 03:33:36 ] Jade Constantine > you will ask about the ooc banning situation too .. and let me know if you can do anything about that over the weekend ?
[ 2011.05.13 03:33:46 ] Verone > yeah, I will do
[ 2011.05.13 03:33:50 ] Jade Constantine > thank you
[ 2011.05.13 03:33:54 ] Jade Constantine > so yep
[ 2011.05.13 03:33:58 ] Jade Constantine > I think its a decent plan
[ 2011.05.13 03:34:16 ] Verone > excellent, hopefully i'll speak to soter over the next few days, he's late US timezone
[ 2011.05.13 03:34:21 ] Verone > so i might catch him after work
[ 2011.05.13 03:34:29 ] Jade Constantine > yeah i must confess
[ 2011.05.13 03:34:33 ] Jade Constantine > his timezone baffles me
[ 2011.05.13 03:34:37 ] Verone > i've already dropped him a mail
[ 2011.05.13 03:34:39 ] Verone > he's like me
[ 2011.05.13 03:34:40 ] Jade Constantine > he plays from after dt
[ 2011.05.13 03:34:44 ] Verone > he's all over the bloody place
[ 2011.05.13 03:34:50 ] Jade Constantine > to random times in the ustz
[ 2011.05.13 03:34:58 ] Verone > yeah, haha
[ 2011.05.13 03:35:40 ] Verone > it's pretty crazy, i see him on before a 12 hour shift, and after sometimes
[ 2011.05.13 03:35:57 ] Jade Constantine > again thats an odd one
[ 2011.05.13 03:36:01 ] Jade Constantine > the soter business
[ 2011.05.13 03:36:13 ] Jade Constantine > i have no real idea why he took against us
[ 2011.05.13 03:36:23 ] Jade Constantine > unless was the rote membership he had for a bit
[ 2011.05.13 03:36:37 ] Verone > it's just the way things are, and the rote membership may have had something to do with it
[ 2011.05.13 03:36:41 ] Verone > but that's easily stamped out
[ 2011.05.13 03:37:01 ] Jade Constantine > yeah its baffling though really
[ 2011.05.13 03:37:09 ] Jade Constantine > I guess i have a wierd take on these things
[ 2011.05.13 03:37:39 ] Jade Constantine > could never understand the dislike for another organization that is "rubbish" at pvp
[ 2011.05.13 03:37:42 ] Jade Constantine > personally
[ 2011.05.13 03:37:50 ] Jade Constantine > I love rubbish pvp outfits :)
[ 2011.05.13 03:37:54 ] Jade Constantine > they give good fights
[ 2011.05.13 03:38:05 ] Verone > i think the hostility grew from there and got personal
[ 2011.05.13 03:38:14 ] Verone > which can be fixed, it'll just take time
[ 2011.05.13 03:38:30 ] Jade Constantine > yep fingers crossed :)
[ 2011.05.13 03:39:08 ] Jade Constantine > you noticed we decided not to assassinate John Revenent this year btw?
[ 2011.05.13 03:39:22 ] Verone > good call
[ 2011.05.13 03:39:33 ] Verone > Veto Corp were asked to speak there, but decided to boycott the whole thing
[ 2011.05.13 03:39:36 ] Jade Constantine > well to be honest
[ 2011.05.13 03:39:38 ] Verone > given the presence of the Amarr
[ 2011.05.13 03:39:45 ] Jade Constantine > I think I-RED have changed a bit over the year
[ 2011.05.13 03:39:54 ] Jade Constantine > with their experience with the amarr bloc
[ 2011.05.13 03:39:56 ] Jade Constantine > and its reasonable
[ 2011.05.13 03:39:59 ] Jade Constantine > to respect that
[ 2011.05.13 03:40:04 ] Jade Constantine > in our choices now
[ 2011.05.13 03:40:14 ] Jade Constantine > need to be dynamic rather than dogmatic
[ 2011.05.13 03:40:18 ] Verone > oh I agree, but in character, Ethan is a terrible racist, even though he won't admit it :)
[ 2011.05.13 03:40:31 ] Jade Constantine > well
[ 2011.05.13 03:40:42 ] Verone > he hates the Amarr, haha, or rather those loyal to the faith
[ 2011.05.13 03:40:45 ] Jade Constantine > I couldn't not say something about archie wanting a sermon :)
[ 2011.05.13 03:40:58 ] Jade Constantine > at the memorial for an anti slavery hero
[ 2011.05.13 03:41:03 ] Jade Constantine > lol tbh
[ 2011.05.13 03:42:13 ] Verone > hence me making our mail to revenent public :P
[ 2011.05.13 03:42:19 ] Verone > i figured it was the best way to do it
[ 2011.05.13 03:42:51 ] Jade Constantine > yeah it wasn't bad at all
[ 2011.05.13 03:43:30 ] Jade Constantine > anyways I'll let you get on mate, thank you very much for your help and look forward to hearing on the progress ... thanks again!
[ 2011.05.13 03:43:43 ] Verone > not a problem, i'll keep you posted :)
[ 2011.05.13 03:44:03 ] Jade Constantine > ta ta for now
-
Jade, for reference :
Apologies to claire xxx for revealing his name, but please don't effectively brand me a liar when you're not in full possession of the facts. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/verone3784/20110520203618.jpg)
-
Jade, for reference :
Apologies to claire xxx for revealing his name, but please don't effectively brand me a liar when you're not in full possession of the facts. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/verone3784/20110520203618.jpg)
I did not brand you a liar, I said I didn't believe the initial claim you made without evidence.
You have now presented evidence and I am prepared to accept it.
-
The broader point (and I'd invite anyone interested to have a good read of the chat log in question to assess the intentions and such) is well ?
So what?
I don't believe there is any suggestion that anyone has actually behaved terribly wrongly here.
(If anybody disagrees by all means speak up)
I asked for some help resolving ooc issues - and Verone in turn placed a rider on that request that ceasefire with moira should be put before the star fraction members as part of the arrangement.
I passed on that request (and terms) and the Star Fraction membership refused them (due largely to in space involvement of veto vessels defending moira assets.
We are now at war. I don't really see the problem or drama.
-
I guess what I'm trying to figure out from reading this is how Jade's ooc reputation has anything to do with this war, and why posts on the summit would hurt his rep with the 'rp circle'. And what circle is this, anyway? :P
-
I guess what I'm trying to figure out from reading this is how Jade's ooc reputation has anything to do with this war, and why posts on the summit would hurt his rep with the 'rp circle'. And what circle is this, anyway? :P
If you have to ask...
-
Do not understand emothread, is dumb pirate lemming, F1, F2, F3...
-
Do not understand emothread, is dumb pirate lemming, F1, F2, F3...
Makes two of us Kyoko.
-
I guess what I'm trying to figure out from reading this is how Jade's ooc reputation has anything to do with this war, and why posts on the summit would hurt his rep with the 'rp circle'. And what circle is this, anyway? :P
I made a handy dandy illustration.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/izumizagari/rpcircles-1.jpg)
Edit: Fixed typo
PS- the ones with a lot of dots can be seen as alts. :E
-
All hail the prophet Izzy, wisest among us!
-
I guess what I'm trying to figure out from reading this is how Jade's ooc reputation has anything to do with this war, and why posts on the summit would hurt his rep with the 'rp circle'. And what circle is this, anyway? :P
I made a handy dandy illustration.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/izumizagari/rpcircles-1.jpg)
COOKIES! :D
-
COOKIES! :D
Zomg cookies Dx
-
"Realtiy"?
Seriously?
-
"Realtiy"?
Seriously?
Sorry, I was being rushed by parents and mistyped it. I fixed it. -_-\
-
PS- the ones with a lot of dots can be seen as alts. :E
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/BrotherAnimosus/EVE/SheMayLookCleanBut.jpg)
-
That one dot in the upper right hand corner, that dot is me.
-
I made a handy dandy illustration.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/izumizagari/rpcircles-1.jpg)
Edit: Fixed typo
PS- the ones with a lot of dots can be seen as alts. :E
/thread
-
[mod]Split from the war thread (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2265.0). Be mindful of the rules, or it will get locked very quickly.[/mod]
-
I am the Claire XXX that sent Verone the email. As proof of who I am I offer these two tidbits that the majority of people either here, or in Eve, don't know (and I do this so there's no one saying that I'm some alt of another person/poster), but those who actually know me will be able to verify.
1. Verone and I share the same first name in RL.
2. I am a quadriplegic.
-----------------------------------
I did, in fact, send Verone that email. I would, of course, have preferred that it not become public. However, I never asked that it remain private. So, Verone, no harm-no foul as far as I'm concerned.
My reasons for the email were personal and definitely not IC.
I've noticed lately that the IGS has become a cesspool of in-character attacks on people, and a lot of it is OoC thinly veiled as IC. To some degree, very regretfully, I have allowed myself to become involved with that which is why I sent the email to Verone. I also sent similar emails to others that I feel I might have offended in an OoC way ... my apologies if I missed anyone.
At this point it doesn't matter to me who is wrong or right; Jade and SF; Verone and Veto; Bacc and Rote Kapelle; Soter and Moira., but what does matter (especially to me) is that, in my opinion, words do have consequences and I won't be a party to it any longer. If that means I need to step down as a director of The Star Fraction and go my separate way, then so be it, but I would do so with a clear conscience and my integrity intact.
I'm not the biggest or best RP'er out there. In fact, prior to my time in SF I didn't have anything to do with it at all, and I have barely gotten my feet wet in the culture since. However, what I have experienced since, especially over the last few days, has definitely left a bad taste in my mouth.
Surely the Eve RP/IC scene can use some good, old fashioned written sparring between characters, but when that goes beyond being good natured and into the realm of OoC attacks hidden behind IC then it hurts the entire RP community. And that is what I feel I've been witnessing on the IGS ... from all sides involved.
In closing I hope this clears up any mystery or bewilderment for those wondering about this.
Best to all,
Claire XXX aka Paul
(P.S. To those emailing and calling to find out if it was really me ... please, stop. I'm not in the mood to discuss any of this.)
-
Wow, that's gotta have been hard to get out. But yeah, this is definitely the sort of OOC issues that I want to avoid. As far as I'm concerned, people can hate me IC all they want. But when that hatred spills OOC, there are issues. I think everyone involved should step back and try to look at this from a neutral perspective. Everyone's angry at everyone, and doesn't need to be. Its a game, we're playing to have fun, and I do understand that people take it seriously, I know I do, but if people are getting this upset OOC, then it needs to be dealt with OOC and resolved, not turned into mudslinging thinly veiled as RP.
Slave Constantine01: I don't actually know if you're guilty of any of what I just said above, or if you're just playing the character to the hilt, but in doing so, you've managed to anger an awful lot of people and effectively alienated yourself by constantly trying to stand by and defend your characters actions as the correct choice. If you want people to be able to interact with you, you need to step back and not get so defensive when discussing your character's actions. If I lose a ship to pirates, I don't immediately look for some sinister plot, and in this case, trying to convince everyone of the existence of said sinister plot has caused one to manifest. The only way to really save face in this situation on an OOC level is for everyone to say fuck characterization for a bit and stand down.
Slave Soter01: I know you're just having fun, but in this particular situation, it may help if you were to OOCly disarm instead of trying to be entertaining, as doing so is exacerbating the butthurt that is going on between people.
-
Total =/
We should all get together, take a chill pill, and pow wow around a campfire.
-
Rote Kapelle hates Star Fraction, IC and OOC.
Have to say I am a member and frankly you should convo every damn one of use before making OOC statements on our behalf.
MINE anyway....
-
So like everyone's saying everyone else is mad at everyone. Just posting to say I'm not mad, and I don't think anyone in Rote Kapelle is mad (maybe excepting Sak, but he's always mad, comes from sexual frustration [♥ you Sak]).
So yeah. I don't think people are that mad. Soter seemed a little mad. But who knows. I just wanna shoot people so I can print out more killmails, post them on the ceiling above my bed and fap to them.
-
Well after all the drama and excitement it does seem like a solution is beginning to present itself. As anyone who had a nice cup of tea and read through the complete unabridged chatlog I had with Verone (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2275.msg30254#msg30254) can see the reason I contacted him in the first place was to suggest we put aside the ooc needle and and resolve to fight each other with a little bit of professionalism in space.
So lets do that.
I think perhaps the answer here is probably to cut out the middle man and for us to have a chat directly Bacc and Tyzzara and Cassius etc and see what can be achieved.
The broad sense I get from this thread splitoff is that while most people are pretty happy with the actual war between SF and Moira (and whoever moira brings as support etc) the majority would prefer less actual local/forum crap and a lot less IC/OOC linkages and slipovers (like the binding of an IC Moira ceasefire to the restoration of OOC respectful interactions that Verone proposed - that did (inadvertantly I'm sure) cause much of this angst.
So lets forget that entirely. Verone will have nothing to say about the Moira/Fraction war from this point onwards on any kind of OOC level and we'll say thank you but no thank you to any future involvement with a Verone negotiation role.
In exchange we'll largely ignore Veto in the Moira equation (though will of course note any future involvement should it happen via even-handed campaign reports of the kind we've already posted).
What we'll probably do re - IGS in an a couple of days (or whenever the next significant event occurs in the war) I'll post an IGS SF war report thread and collect the various factual accounts given so far in the Moira thread so people can follow the conflict without wading through the off topic material. Hopefully that can trigger a general improvement in behaviour from all sides.
IC wise - we'll return to the initial position I made clear as SF lead diplomat that Julianus Soter is free to approach us at any time with a request for peace and to ask our terms but any such terms will need to be presented to the council of Free Captains and voted. This must of course be done in a fully IC fashion. And in return we'd ask Julianus to refrain from speaking about matters of "OOC hate" referencing other people and get back to speaking only for his own corp in the future.
Until then the war will continue as it should and we'll all try to get back to fighting in space rather than on forums. It does have a lot of amusing potential and lets not deny ourselves that by getting all twisted out of shape on an OOC forum war.
On the broader point of SF's roll in the "rp community" and seeking to build bridges etc - for the immediate future we'll continue to hold out an olive branch on the OOC level and I'll offer everything I offered to Verone in the late night conversation to anyone prepared to meet us honestly and discuss these things who occupies a neutral position.
I'd still like to resolve issues like the in-game ooc channel ban and would appreciate anyone who could put me in touch with the moderators there for a respectful dialogue on the issue.
So what I think we've all learned here is that trying to bind OOC agreements "to be nice to each other" together with "IC imposed ceasefires" is never a good idea and children really shouldn't play with fireworks!
Lets move on and see what can be achieved OOC respect wise while blowing each other to pieces in-game.
It has to be a sensible move now Right?
-
I can respect your position, and your desire to change and move forward and would possibly be willing to help with OOC discussions, I honestly don't know who will be open to reaching out in this regard, but honestly, I think this was handled decently, and Jade, the only thing I could see OOCly that would be considered poor form during these events is:
1. Making the OOC bridge building dependent on the end of the IC conflict, because that means the IC/OOC divide isn't as firm as it needs to be. Veto and RK's involvement or lack their of in this conflict should make absolutely no difference on an OOC level.
2. Responding to Soter's goading here and letting things get somewhat heated between you, Verone and Soter.
-
1. Making the OOC bridge building dependent on the end of the IC conflict, because that means the IC/OOC divide isn't as firm as it needs to be. Veto and RK's involvement or lack their of in this conflict should make absolutely no difference on an OOC level.
Yep I agree completely. I think this is where things have gone wrong. Ending the Moira war (or not and just having fun fighting it) should have absolutely nothing to do with resolving OOC issues and I greatly regret my misjudgement in not more firmly rebuffing Verone's suggestion from the moment he mentioned it as a precondition to resolution.
2. Responding to Soter's goading here and letting things get somewhat heated between you, Verone and Soter.
I don't actually think I did respond to goading here really. I know Soter appeared to be upset (as did Verone) but I still don't really understand why they are that angry about what happened I must confess. I think the chatlogs do show there is absolutely no grounds to consider I "betrayed" any element of discussion or negotiation between us and I did precisely what I promised to do in taking that proposal to the alliance to decide on it (which since I explained to Verone we are a democracy rather than a dictatorship - is how it had to be).
-
With respect, Jade, people have a tendency to connect your IC mindset with your OOC mindset. Posting emotionally-involved OOC material on Backstage in connection to IGS rage really doesn't help. Everyone else on these forums could do with remembering this, as well. As soon as you get involved emotionally, the game isn't fun anymore.
One cannot approach someone OOC and say, "I want to mend bridges IC, are we good now?" There has to be IC effort involved as well. I find asking for IC help OOC and then claiming no contact was initiated IC to be ridiculous; however, had it been myself in Verone's position, I would have suggested an IC meeting -- starting with a public request for a talk followed by a private office discussion -- to cement things IC. So, Verone, you fucked up there :P
Verone also shouldn't have brought up any part of that discussion -- apart from mention of being brought in as mediator -- on IGS. Jade should have acknowledged Verone's role as mediator, rather than scoffing and suggesting she never would have asked him for help. Verone was asked to negotiate in a supposedly IC war, Jade would have gone to him IC. End of story there.
No negotiation was ever done on the part of brokering a temporary ceasefire for Veto upon Star Fraction assets; it should therefore have been understood that if SF pilots are nearby, Veto pilots will consider an engagement. It wouldn't be personal: Veto are pirates, ffs! Hitting expensive targets for fun and profit is what pirates DO. That it was in support of Moira. assets was, for Veto, entirely coincidental. The SF pilots might as well have been camping a gate for all the Moira. tower mattered.
Uh. No offense, Jules!
This could have been a simple matter of, "We were attempting to negotiate, but some of our pilots thought to take a shot at your tower anyway and got rolled by a group of outlaws." Which is exactly what it appears to be, from the viewpoint of an outside observer.
Sending angry OOC messages blaming Verone for the actions of his pilots was a bad move, Jade. You hit Verone's "I don't give a fuck"-button squarely. IC rage is understandable and entirely acceptable, but it would have been in your favour to say OOC that there were no hard feelings, and that IC is only IC.
Two misunderstandings have exacerbated the situation with regards to Veto and Star Fraction:
1: Verone's position as negotiator should not be confused with the actions of the pilots under his command -- he is the Glorious Dictator, after all, but if he doesn't say so, they won't know not to, will they?
2: Likewise, Jade's position in requesting mediation should not be confused with the actions of pilots under his(her, IC) command. Particularly if he doesn't tell them he's trying to start a mediation dialogue with the targets, hmm?
If connection between the CEOS and their pilots there was intended, it should have been agreed from the very start that all engagements against each other -- AND Moira assets, until a cease-fire could be negotiated (because let's face it: nothing says "we don't care" like an open attack during negotiation) -- should be avoided until a consensus could be reached.
IC, you all should have known that, too. (I'm looking at all three of you, Verone, Jade, and Jules. Rote Kapelle is a non-issue in this situation, because they were just doing what they do and would have engaged whether Veto and Moira were involved or not.)
I find this entire situation, including the lengthy shit-slinging forumrage, to be FUCKING ridiculous.
It's far too late to call a halt to the trainwreck that is IGS, but swallowing a little pride to admit you goofed and want to make another stab at improving relationships both IC and OOC would go a good way toward making the situation fun again.
-
Shae summed it up there faaaar better then I ever could have, props to her.
-
With respect, Jade, people have a tendency to connect your IC mindset with your OOC mindset. Posting emotionally-involved OOC material on Backstage in connection to IGS rage really doesn't help. Everyone else on these forums could do with remembering this, as well. As soon as you get involved emotionally, the game isn't fun anymore.
One cannot approach someone OOC and say, "I want to mend bridges IC, are we good now?" There has to be IC effort involved as well. I find asking for IC help OOC and then claiming no contact was initiated IC to be ridiculous; however, had it been myself in Verone's position, I would have suggested an IC meeting -- starting with a public request for a talk followed by a private office discussion -- to cement things IC. So, Verone, you fucked up there :P
Verone also shouldn't have brought up any part of that discussion -- apart from mention of being brought in as mediator -- on IGS. Jade should have acknowledged Verone's role as mediator, rather than scoffing and suggesting she never would have asked him for help. Verone was asked to negotiate in a supposedly IC war, Jade would have gone to him IC. End of story there.
No negotiation was ever done on the part of brokering a temporary ceasefire for Veto upon Star Fraction assets; it should therefore have been understood that if SF pilots are nearby, Veto pilots will consider an engagement. It wouldn't be personal: Veto are pirates, ffs! Hitting expensive targets for fun and profit is what pirates DO. That it was in support of Moira. assets was, for Veto, entirely coincidental. The SF pilots might as well have been camping a gate for all the Moira. tower mattered.
Uh. No offense, Jules!
This could have been a simple matter of, "We were attempting to negotiate, but some of our pilots thought to take a shot at your tower anyway and got rolled by a group of outlaws." Which is exactly what it appears to be, from the viewpoint of an outside observer.
Sending angry OOC messages blaming Verone for the actions of his pilots was a bad move, Jade. You hit Verone's "I don't give a fuck"-button squarely. IC rage is understandable and entirely acceptable, but it would have been in your favour to say OOC that there were no hard feelings, and that IC is only IC.
Two misunderstandings have exacerbated the situation with regards to Veto and Star Fraction:
1: Verone's position as negotiator should not be confused with the actions of the pilots under his command -- he is the Glorious Dictator, after all, but if he doesn't say so, they won't know not to, will they?
2: Likewise, Jade's position in requesting mediation should not be confused with the actions of pilots under his(her, IC) command. Particularly if he doesn't tell them he's trying to start a mediation dialogue with the targets, hmm?
If connection between the CEOS and their pilots there was intended, it should have been agreed from the very start that all engagements against each other -- AND Moira assets, until a cease-fire could be negotiated (because let's face it: nothing says "we don't care" like an open attack during negotiation) -- should be avoided until a consensus could be reached.
IC, you all should have known that, too. (I'm looking at all three of you, Verone, Jade, and Jules. Rote Kapelle is a non-issue in this situation, because they were just doing what they do and would have engaged whether Veto and Moira were involved or not.)
I find this entire situation, including the lengthy shit-slinging forumrage, to be FUCKING ridiculous.
It's far too late to call a halt to the trainwreck that is IGS, but swallowing a little pride to admit you goofed and want to make another stab at improving relationships both IC and OOC would go a good way toward making the situation fun again.
Its a generally useful summary (But bare in mind there was ZERO intention to approach to mend bridges IC from my side - Veto is an enemy organization in character and likely always will be and I didn't have the faintest intention of including Moira in that discussion until Verone brought them up).
And I do agree that some pretty crazy mistakes were made from everyone but one of the worst of all is to assume too much of the opposite number's state of mind and temper. I've read a couple of times about "jade raging" and posting x,y,z but I can tell you quite bluntly that while decisions were made by our alliance that I relayed ... for example -> veto ships involve in defense of Moira tower hence Verone is invalidated as a negotiator -> these decisions were not made or communicated in any kind of anger and its almost always a mistake to assume you know things about your opponents state of mind.
There is reason that "u mad" is a trolling meme. Lets not slip into the slightly more intellectual version of that on these forums please.
I mean lets look at the IC reality of Verone's proposal on Moira:
The leader of a set of -10 hostiles (OOC) offers to facilitate an IC meeting with the leader of a war-enemy. Due to time constraints said meeting is never proposed IC and doesn't happen and instead his pilots are seen to take sides on the battlefield (various ooc debates on the role of pirates notwithstanding - it is purely the choice of SF pilots to decide how to read their actions and react as we see fit).
So it is not exactly beyond all characterization and reason that this would be seen as invalidating any potential IC diplomatic credibility but that doesn't mean (and nor should it be taken to mean) that the entirely separate and OOC sought cooling off and repair of PLAYER relations should be impossible.
Basically from the moment Veto ships shared a killmail with Moira it was impossible Verone to play an IC role in negotiating a ceasefire or end to the war. Thats just roleplay really.
Now where I made a mistake is that even though the first evemail I sent to Verone said that I felt the IC ceasefire with Moira was unlikely but I wanted to continue with the OOC improvement of relations. I allowed myself to get a bit dispirited by Verone's own negative reply that suggested that with the Moira settlement off the table - everything else was similarly void, so giving up at that point.
But really so what?
The reality is SF is happy having Rote and Veto and Moira -10 KOS and continuing our war with Moira. Rote and Veto seem happy to have SF -10 KOS.
Moira may or not be happy about it - but if they are not then they still have the option of meeting our pilots in-character and proposing terms to end the fighting - thats Eve.
This is all well and perfectly good and I do not believe it invalidates the intentions I expressed in that long conversation with Verone seeking generally improved OOC relations with his section of the divided RP community.
The single most annoying that Verone has done during this whole business (from my perspective) is referring to an OOC conversation where we discussed our work and talked candidly about obviously ooc subjects - IC on the IGS to make an argument.
And yes, in retrospect perhaps I should have just raised a complaint and tried to end discussion at that point. But in strict IC terms there had been no IC discussion of his role as negotiator and no IC negotiations involving him as a facilitator had been held with Julianus Soter. I was actually trying (though perhaps again unwisely) to keep a firm IC and OOC distinction and continued to make that distinction here yesterday.
But yes ultimately, what a ridiculous storm in a tea-cup. More or less everyone is happy to fight IC in space and doesn't want "peace".
Most people seem to want a resolution of the OOC dispute and better relations between players so we can keep IC IC and avoid the wierd leakage of OOC hatred into IC propaganda and debate on the Summit.
So lets keep the wars and IC fun we want.
Lets resolve the OOC nonsense.
And everyone will be happy?
-
The upside is, I have plenty of hilarious stuff to read while I'm waiting to be re-subbed. :D
-
So like everyone's saying everyone else is mad at everyone. Just posting to say I'm not mad, and I don't think anyone in Rote Kapelle is mad (maybe excepting Sak, but he's always mad, comes from sexual frustration [♥ you Sak]).
I don't have much to add beyond what has already been said, especially due to not being involved in the recent events. That said, confirming myself as another non-mad RK member. That has pretty much been the case for the whole time, including the tower debacle (granted memory of it is a bit hazy at this point...). Frustrated perhaps, but never angry or mad. That stuff has been old history for me for close to a year now. Granted that hasn't been the subject of either of these threads, but figured I'd throw it out there while we were at it. :P
I will say that RK doesn't have SF set -10, but we're NBSI so no real shocker there. ;)
-
I quite agree, Jade. I wasn't calling for any sort of cessation of in-game action or IC rage :) Just... keep it civil OOC! :D
It's quite an entertaining and interesting development, from an IC perspective.
-
I quite agree, Jade. I wasn't calling for any sort of cessation of in-game action or IC rage :) Just... keep it civil OOC! :D
Which was my precise motivation for contacting Verone and beginning all this fiasco in the first place.
-
OK, I'm going to be neccessarily frank.
Jade, I can't pretend to speak for the entire EVE roleplay community, nor will I try, but fortunately, I don't need to. Certainly, most of the RP circles in which I have an involvement treat you and Star Fraction the way they do because of the way in which you act both IC and OOC. Certainly my infamous lack of respect for you and your corporation, both IC and OOC, stems from this.
I actually had a wall of text that was going to go here, but after I went over it, it seemed like it was superfluous and needlessly accusatory, so I cut all of it out.
Basically, I do not lack respect for you because "it's the done thing". I lack respect for you and Star Fraction because you and Star Fraction lack respect for me, and that is neither a complaint, nor a demand for respect - it's simply a statement. Neither of us afford each other the slightest degree of respect, and I believe - although, again, I can't really speak on behalf of the greater community - that the mutual lack of respect, both IC and OOC, is what keeps you and Star Fraction isolated from the rest of the community.
-
Fair play, the situation is calming down. This is a good thing.
Regardless of other people's change in stance, my opinion on everything that happened remains set in stone. I think very carefully and very hard before I make a statement or action, and I stand by everything I've said.
I'll also defend myself to the hilt with every shred of fact and concrete evidence available if my morals, personality or intentions are negatively called into question, hence me putting everything forward here so that people knew the full situation from my point of view.
In relation to most of the posts here, it's good to see people cooling off.
That said, there still seems to be a misconception with regards to the ceasefire for Moira, in a sense that people seem to feel that I was trying to help Moira out personally.
This isn't the case. The idea behind the ceasefire was simple. I was intending to take The Star Fraction out of the RP equation all together, to the point of there being nothing to post about on the IGS, nothing for anyone, SF or otherwise to gloat on. My intention was then to assist Jade in rebuilding bridges and trying to take care of past issues and conflicts, before helping to organise things so that SF could bounce back into the RP community full swing and not feel isolated from the rest of us.
In out of character terms, I couldn't give a shit frankly. I'm not one to hold grudges. I tried to help and I'm still of the opinion that it was spat back in my face despite the amount of effort and time I was planning to invest.
That's not my issue though, and there's little I can do about it. I hold a grudge against no one, and day by day if people want to behave in a civil and dignified manner toward me then I'm more than happy to reciprocate. The same goes for the opposite end of the spectrum, if people want to give me shit then they'll receive it back tenfold.
As for in character interaction Ethan doesn't consider the Star Fraction a problem, a threat or a concern. If anything he's mildly frustrated given the fact that he's an anarchist himself, and was once quite good friends with Jade and Revan while engaged to Naphtalia.
His confusion and frustration stems from the fact that Jade inexplicably became hostile with him and branded him an Imperialist sympathiser for no apparent reason. I'll add that this occurred around the time that myself and Jade locked horns out of character over his running of the first CSM, of which I was openly critical.
On an out of character level I've considered this very petty for a long time, and it's something that initially I endeavoured to change before the effort became too much and I got bored with it.
Frankly, after 8 years pretty much everyone I interact with knows that I'm as direct in all of my dealings as a gunshot to the head. I hide no facts and don't beat around the bush. If I have an opinion I'll express it concisely and directly, and this ruffles feathers with certain members of Eve's populace.
Fundamentally, I agree with the concept of what Andreus is saying. Respect demands respect in return, and I think that this is where SF's leadership has fallen flat in most cases.
Everyone who is civil toward me and respects me, gets exactly the same in return from in equal magnitude.
Like I said in private correspondence with Jade, and will say openly here : I hope things change, I hope that he can change, and I hope that perception of The Star Fraction can change. It's going to take time, and it's going to be drawn out, but it needs to happen.
There are too many ridiculous old feuds among the RP community that keep us divided and prevent us from doing much greater things.
-
Like I said in private correspondence with Jade, and will say openly here : I hope things change, I hope that he can change, and I hope that perception of The Star Fraction can change. It's going to take time, and it's going to be drawn out, but it needs to happen.
There are too many ridiculous old feuds among the RP community that keep us divided and prevent us from doing much greater things.
Well said, one of the reasons why they are now neutral to Ishuk-Raata. We were lucky enough to overcome our differences via IC paths as well. ;)
-
Here's a question.
Why did anyone have to dramatize this in a public forum? It's between three people and their corps, not everyone else. I don't care about this.
-
Here's a question.
Why did anyone have to dramatize this in a public forum? It's between three people and their corps, not everyone else. I don't care about this.
Because putting two or more people who play their characters as self-inserts in a public forum always leads to a thread like this.
Forever.
-
Interesting point there, Andreus, though it might not be a nice thing to say. :|
And I say this as somebody who has been an observer since the server opened and never really been a part of any RP group or other group for that matter (eight years of "solo" play indeed) and still have little to no respect for SFs doings. I have just not been able to point out why.
Though, with the limited player interaction I do I guess I should not be bothered.
-
Like I said in private correspondence with Jade, and will say openly here : I hope things change, I hope that he can change, and I hope that perception of The Star Fraction can change. It's going to take time, and it's going to be drawn out, but it needs to happen.
There are too many ridiculous old feuds among the RP community that keep us divided and prevent us from doing much greater things.
Well said, one of the reasons why they are now neutral to Ishuk-Raata. We were lucky enough to overcome our differences via IC paths as well. ;)
I'd be more than happy to do the same, but thus far there's been no give and take. :)
-
Like I said in private correspondence with Jade, and will say openly here : I hope things change, I hope that he can change, and I hope that perception of The Star Fraction can change. It's going to take time, and it's going to be drawn out, but it needs to happen.
There are too many ridiculous old feuds among the RP community that keep us divided and prevent us from doing much greater things.
But ridiculous feuds are where all the fun is had :( Nothing beats a bit of IC hatred or OOC animosity to make things interresting and fun.
Honestly, the worst time I had in EVE was when I had a reasonably good relationship with my enemies - it usually resulted in being called out for ganking people when it wasnt convenient for them :|
Not saying everybody should hate anyone, but the tit for tat animosity mini and amarr militia have evolved so far proves to be a reservoir of unlimited entertainment.
-
You can gank me at an inconvenient time, if you want. >:(
(In fact, I haven't been pewed in ages. Double >:( )
-
Honestly, the worst time I had in EVE was when I had a reasonably good relationship with my enemies - it usually resulted in being called out for ganking people when it wasnt convenient for them :|
Frankly friendship shouldn't get in the way of blowing things up. Or otherwise pissing in people's cheerios--this is EVE. I have a lot of friends in HABIT, but you don't see me giving their corp wallet back. And I'd take Viper out for beers, though I'd not turn my back on him. :P
This is a game where we make things explode. If people are expecting you to stop playing the game because you're friends with them, well, they're doing it wrong (INCOMING MODERATION OH MAH GAWD). But seriously.
-
Like I said in private correspondence with Jade, and will say openly here : I hope things change, I hope that he can change, and I hope that perception of The Star Fraction can change. It's going to take time, and it's going to be drawn out, but it needs to happen.
There are too many ridiculous old feuds among the RP community that keep us divided and prevent us from doing much greater things.
But ridiculous feuds are where all the fun is had :( Nothing beats a bit of IC hatred or OOC animosity to make things interresting and fun.
Honestly, the worst time I had in EVE was when I had a reasonably good relationship with my enemies - it usually resulted in being called out for ganking people when it wasnt convenient for them :|
Not saying everybody should hate anyone, but the tit for tat animosity mini and amarr militia have evolved so far proves to be a reservoir of unlimited entertainment.
I have to admit this is not my kind of fun. Not at all. : (
All lovey dovey OOC and IC feuds for me. Way more entertaining, much like the OOC thread between U'K and VI recently.
-
First let me address this “respect issue.” Andreus, Myyona and Verone speak above about “respect needing to be got before it can be given.”
And Andreus and Verone go on to explain why they feel they haven’t been given respect and thus do not give respect in turn. I can understand this impulse because it is simple human nature though it does indicate that part of the problem here:
Is the expectation of IC respect along with OOC respect and that’s where things get muddy.
Now at Andreus to begin with.
As I understand it you were treated quite decently and granted full ooc respect by one of our directors who met you at a pub meet some years ago. More recently I don’t recall you being disrespected on an out of character level by the Fraction. Indeed a few months ago I recall you being disappointed and frustrated with Eve and posting that you were going to quit the game on Eve general forum. As is the custom with these posts you had pages of people trolling you and generally laughing and I came there and said something positive to you as a player with heartfelt respect and sympathy.
So while its true to say we have no respect for your character in-character, that is not the whole story. But then as we’ve concluded already – you have to give respect to get respect and from the perspective of our membership your character does not act in a way we respect on the Eve forums (which is our sole medium of interaction).
We could fill pages “he said” / “she said” and ancient wrongs but why bother?
I don’t believe in justifying IC actions with pages of OOC explanations – why is it difficult to believe that a hardline federalist nationalist speaker who has often used the line “I might hate the Amarrians/Gurristas/Serpentis/Caldari but I hate the Fraction more” would be considered an empty vessel by the people HE has been insulting and deriding now for years?
Why is IC respect needed? If you are comfortable having your character operating as an anti Fraction mouthpiece that simply joins ANY thread and hurls rotten fruit at the Fraction why do you need IC respect from us in the first place?
And if you want to change the way you are perceived then simply change the way your character acts. Give respect, get respect.
And to Verone now.
You say in your post above that you consider it inexplicable that Jade (and other Free Captains) came to dislike your character. I really don’t understand why.
Veto pilots attacked our organization and earned their -10. When a senior director initiated diplomacy to check if you were serious about this you told him something like “I can’t control my pilots without standings and I don’t want to set you blue” we said fine and kept you -10 from that day. If you had wanted to do diplomacy at any time the door was open.
Jade’s comment about Verone being an "Imperialist Sympathizer" came from one post Verone made using the Andreus line “I might hate the Amarr but they are more honourable than the Fraction” (or words to that effect) and Jade in seeing this concluded that Verone liked the sound of his own voice more than honest discussion and slammed him on it.
But again, that’s pure IC. By and large I am not in contact with you OOC Verone. I don’t have contacts in common, I don’t speak to you OOC regularly – last time we DID speak was in Iceland where I believe we resolved the issues with your dislike and boycotting of CSM1 (I seem to remember there was something that stopped you running yourself?) fairly completely over a long rambling drunken conversation.
I think the problem you have with us Verone is you are too quick to assume that what we do IC reflects an automatic OOC shadow of opinion or dislike and I hope to demonstrate why that is completely wrong.
When we see Verone doing something like playing both sides of the Sansha war, by playing the pirate and attacking anyone he feels like then claiming he’s more honourable and principled than x,y,z person our CHARACTERS might think Verone is a Snake unable to be trusted but by and large that is as far as it goes.
In character you are a snake! You are a pirate who lives on the misery and terror of others, who cheats and lies and steals and brutalizes New Eden.
Sometimes I think you want everything too much your own way and try to combine in the character of Verone both Captain Hook AND Peter Pann (and sometimes ever the bloody tick tock Crocodile too!) and you get a little frustrated when other characters don't respect this characterization to your full and complete expectations.
It all becomes a muddle frankly and it does represent why messing up notions IC and OOC respect can be a fiasco on stilts with a plastic party clown hat and silly nose.
Recent example of something *MUCH* better?
I-RED. Last year we came into direct hostility and contact with I-RED at the event their executor organized at the Malkenen memorial. We sent a fleet there and blew up John’s ship to make a point about Amarrian influence over the memorial of a man who liberated billions of slaves. Was a pure IC motivated response to an IC political situation. At the time a hellova lot of “RP’ers” got their noses twisted out of joint by this action (including yourself Verone) but in the wake of it the single OOC contact we had from John Revenant was a nice mail on chatsubo that said “excellent fun guys, thanks or making the event an interesting one”.
Now that ladies and gents, is how an RP’er should behave in our eyes. We had a furious IC argument with I-RED and their supporters, there were massive IGS debates and fallout, but OOC relations were not damaged or foisted into the equation.
So this year (and this goes back to respect gets respect on the IC level) – we were planning what to do about the Memorial again. Do we wardec I-RED again? Do we attend for other reasons, do we ignore it? Do we do our own?
And out of the blue we get an IC contact from I-RED executive wing that invited the Fraction to speak with courtesy and respectful tone and I passed this to the alliance and asked what people felt about it?
An internal vote was held with a large majority being to respond to this by looking at I-RED’s history over the last year and see where they were now and ultimately initiate diplomacy if we felt there had been genuine evolution. There was, we did, and diplomatic settlement was made without a single OOC discussion between our organizations whatsoever.
We were able to conclude a load and dynamic IC feud by entirely IC means by dint of both sides being prepared to offer the other a little respect and move forwards with the relationship.
So this does raise the question in my eyes about how this “respect” issue arises in general.
With Verone and Veto -> I don’t really see (and do correct me if I am wrong in this) what grounds can possibly exist for IC respect between Veto and the Star Fraction.
Veto is -10 to the Fraction because they fired on one of our ships and Verone refused to grant standings as part of a resolution. This meant that we’d have to suffer future “random attacks” without warning so resolved simply to keep Veto -10.
On a deeper level:
Star Fraction is a democratic anarchist organization and Veto is a fascist dictatorship.
Star Fraction are freespacers and Veto are enclosurists
Star Fraction is NRDS and Veto is NBSI
Star Fraction is anti government and Veto is (well, if not statist, then by turns flirts with a variety of statist principles)
Star Fraction believes in liberation of the human spirit and Veto believes in robbing it. Etc etc. But these are ALL IC DIFFERENCES.
See I don’t think our characters need to respect VETO IC at all, in order to have a better level of respect and professionalism (and avoidance of vile local smack etc) on a player level.
And this I think is where the trainwreck began last Friday where my request for a very simple thing (improvement of OOC relations and less smack talk in local) got mutated into this huge “master plan” where Verone gets to dictate our alliances future wars, engagement, IGS posting and every other aspect of our play simply to court a better standing with the mystical “RP community”.
It was a mistake and I hope you will join me in admitting that now Verone.
That said, there still seems to be a misconception with regards to the ceasefire for Moira, in a sense that people seem to feel that I was trying to help Moira out personally. This isn't the case. The idea behind the ceasefire was simple. I was intending to take The Star Fraction out of the RP equation all together, to the point of there being nothing to post about on the IGS, nothing for anyone, SF or otherwise to gloat on. My intention was then to assist Jade in rebuilding bridges and trying to take care of past issues and conflicts, before helping to organise things so that SF could bounce back into the RP community full swing and not feel isolated from the rest of us.
I find that statement astonishing. That you could believe for one moment that an alliance like Star Fraction with an independent group of players who have charted our own progress and destiny in this game for longer than most have existed could or would allow itself to be dictated to in such a manner by an in-game hostile entity. If I was to have gone to our next alliance meeting and said "Verone is running our policy and war choice and IGS posting for the next few months for the good of our reputation with the RP community" they'd think I'd have gone utterly mad and fired me.
And this is where I think your annoyance comes from in this matter Verone. I asked you for a very simple thing and that was your help in calming down the local smack and getting rid of some of the needle and feuding that your section of the RP community has been doing too much. In return I offered the chance that SF members would play a greater role in the community on an ooc level (which I believe they would if the general mood was improved.)
I didn't ask for your opinion on the wars we were fighting.
I didn't ask for your help in arranging ceasefire with Moira.
I didn't ask for resolution of standings with Veto or Rote Kapelle or whoever else.
I'd witnessed a bad night of Veto/Kapelle fleet smacktalk in Pelille and as I said to you in that chat - it made me feel absolutely disinclined to interest in fighting and "what the hell is all this for?"
So in a triumph of naivete over experience (that I have since described to my own alliance as a terrible tactical error) I held out my hand and tried to see if you could help get this smack fiesta closed down.
Instead we got all this and open wounds flowing bitter blood and craziness.
So now I'm going to ask you again Verone.
Can you help settle the smacktalk issue and help me resolve those existing ooc feuds impacting this divided RP community?
I am not asking for involvement in our IC politics or choices.
I am not asking for shoe-horned ceasefires and imposed IGS silence.
I am asking you as a Player (not Verone the character) to do what you can to put some cold water on the smack volcanos and do what you can to ensure that ooc feuds are not continuing to isolate the Fraction on a purely OOC level. (I would include my ongoing channel ban from OOC channel in game in this category since we both know there is absolutely no justice to that decision.)
These are small gestures perhaps but they will reap larger rewards if we can begin to build trust as player to player while the grand IC politics of eve continue without disruption or interference.
-
Can I ask two questions?
Jade:
Why exactly were you banned from all these OOC channels in the first place, in your opinion?
People responsible for actually banning Jade:
Same question, what did Jade do, OOC, to deserve getting banned from these channels?
-
Can I ask two questions?
Jade:
Why exactly were you banned from all these OOC channels in the first place, in your opinion?
Its only the main ooc channel as far as I know. As for the reason, it initally happened several years ago and the banning was made by Jonny Damordred (i think) during some silly debate where it was about demonstrating the power of moderation or something like that.
I asked to be unbanned last year to a moderator there and was unbanned (was it silvernight? I can't be sure but it *might have been*)
Then Ashar KorAzor returned from inactivity and immediately banned me again with no reason (beyond profanity) given.
I asked on a couple of occassions for the reason but never received any response beyond simple insults.
On balance I feel it sends a negative message on RP unity to have the ceo of a large and active RP alliance banned from the main in game ooc channel and it doesn't aid in the resolution of ooc disputes having one side permanently exiled from the discussion venue. I can assure you I have absolutely no interest in having arguments and nonsense there but I think it will send a useful message that thing ARE improving if this issue is resolved.
People responsible for actually banning Jade:
Same question, what did Jade do, OOC, to deserve getting banned from these channels?
I think you will need to speak to Ashar.
-
I didn't want to get back into this, but Jade you keep bringing up 'smacktalk' when speaking of VETO and I am going to have to call [citation needed] on this one. I admit that the ONLY VETO/Rote join op I have been on that involved SF was when we cyno'd in on top of the Moria tower, but looking at the logs, you hardly see Veto speak at all, much less do anything that would be considered 'smack'.
[ 2011.05.17 17:32:03 ] EVE System > Channel changed to Pelille Local Channel
[ 2011.05.17 17:32:18 ] Bacchanalian > You ran away again
[ 2011.05.17 17:33:40 ] Jade Constantine > Bacchanalian are you going to tell me you don't run away from 5-1 odds on a hostile POS now ?
[ 2011.05.17 17:33:53 ] Sturm Gewehr > incapped pos's are scary c/d?
[ 2011.05.17 17:34:00 ] Proxay > Use your resources strategically.
[ 2011.05.17 17:34:03 ] Jade Constantine > you can hide inside it
[ 2011.05.17 17:34:12 ] Kedisa > Lol 3 bombers and a sleipnir and you laugh when we claok?
[ 2011.05.17 17:34:23 ] Proxay > Retreat is an option, but given your covert aresnal, you should be playing the game that way.
[ 2011.05.17 17:34:34 ] Proxay > Running doesn't seem like an apt tactic given your covert superiority.
[ 2011.05.17 17:34:41 ] Bacchanalian > I just remember a time when Star Fraction would plant seeds of doubt in the minds of pilots who were left to die by their craven companions
[ 2011.05.17 17:34:43 ] Bacchanalian > Much like that
[ 2011.05.17 17:35:21 ] Jade Constantine > I imagine you remember a time when you fought with us against tremendous odds
[ 2011.05.17 17:35:26 ] Jade Constantine > against the Amarrian bloc
[ 2011.05.17 17:35:32 ] Jade Constantine > now you are the bloc
[ 2011.05.17 17:36:07 ] Bacchanalian > Yes, I am indeed an Amarrian. Have you been overdosing on boosters Jade?
[ 2011.05.17 17:36:16 ] Jade Constantine > did I say Amarrian?
[ 2011.05.17 17:36:24 ] Jade Constantine > or are you protesting too much
[ 2011.05.17 17:36:30 ] Jade Constantine > you have become the tyrant
[ 2011.05.17 17:36:34 ] Jade Constantine > we once fought together
[ 2011.05.17 17:36:38 ] Bacchanalian > Now that is rich.
[ 2011.05.17 17:36:43 ] Jade Constantine > and accurate
[ 2011.05.17 17:36:55 ] Jade Constantine > you are at the head of an alliance that exists purely to murder and despoil
[ 2011.05.17 17:37:03 ] Krisy Meyren > Tyrant Kapelle...
[ 2011.05.17 17:37:10 ] Proxay > Spaceship Tyrants
[ 2011.05.17 17:37:13 ] Jade Constantine > and dares accuse a smaller force of disengaging
[ 2011.05.17 17:37:20 ] Jade Constantine > it is rather foolish
[ 2011.05.17 17:37:23 ] Bacchanalian > I've not been at the head of this alliance for some time now Jade. You would do better to gather intel more efficiently.
[ 2011.05.17 17:37:57 ] Kedisa > Mmeeeehhhh mmmeeehhhh meeeehhhhhh
[ 2011.05.17 17:38:11 ] Proxay > Jade, I don't think we condem the act of retreating strategically, what we seem to condemn, is the act of retreating when tactical options are available.
[ 2011.05.17 17:38:13 ] Jade Constantine > but you do not answer my charge I notice
[ 2011.05.17 17:38:25 ] Proxay > Use your bombers.
[ 2011.05.17 17:38:55 ] Jade Constantine > do you often have enemies who are prepared to discuss tactics with you in local Proxay?
[ 2011.05.17 17:39:08 ] LeoniaTavira > we like to help people when we can
[ 2011.05.17 17:39:18 ] Kedisa > How would you suggest we engage then?
[ 2011.05.17 17:39:19 ] Proxay > I offer advice where I can.
[ 2011.05.17 17:39:36 ] Bacchanalian > 3 Falcons was a good start. You probably have more ECM than we have pilots in fleet.
[ 2011.05.17 17:39:57 ] Proxay > Kedisa, if you guys have fit your bombers half-well, you should have a bomb launcher...? Try lobbing a few bombs at us.
[ 2011.05.17 17:40:05 ] Kedisa > This is lowsec...
[ 2011.05.17 17:40:06 ] Krisy Meyren > Lowsec Proxay
[ 2011.05.17 17:40:08 ] Jade Constantine > are you aware where we are fighting?
[ 2011.05.17 17:40:11 ] Proxay > Oooooo
[ 2011.05.17 17:40:12 ] Kedisa > Lol noob.
[ 2011.05.17 17:40:20 ] Proxay > Sorry, too used to 0.0.
[ 2011.05.17 17:40:25 ] Proxay > ;/
[ 2011.05.17 17:40:27 ] Usagi Tsukino > Yeah those gate guns. Awesome range....
[ 2011.05.17 17:40:44 ] Jade Constantine > I don't really understand the reference
[ 2011.05.17 17:40:55 ] Jade Constantine > still thank you for clarifying the campaign goals now
[ 2011.05.17 17:41:06 ] claire xxx > The best part about this ... Rote and Veto here to rep a POS bwahahahahahaha
[ 2011.05.17 17:41:12 ] Jade Constantine > It is our task to hurt moira and your task to keep them alive
[ 2011.05.17 17:41:20 ] Jade Constantine > we will see who wins
[ 2011.05.17 17:41:44 ] Bacchanalian > Aren't we still waiting to see who will win between you and the Amarrians, or did you finally throw in the towel on that one and admit defeat?
[ 2011.05.17 17:41:59 ] Jade Constantine > we won
[ 2011.05.17 17:42:06 ] Jade Constantine > next
[ 2011.05.17 17:42:19 ] Bacchanalian > Ah, of course. I hadn't been down that way in some time to notice that CVA no longer exists.
[ 2011.05.17 17:43:11 ] Jade Constantine > well they lost Providence
[ 2011.05.17 17:43:16 ] Jade Constantine > as did Sev3rance
[ 2011.05.17 17:43:26 ] Jade Constantine > its a fairly clear result
[ 2011.05.17 17:43:27 ] Bacchanalian > Severance are in the north now, holding space as part of the NC
[ 2011.05.17 17:43:32 ] Bacchanalian > You relocated them.
[ 2011.05.17 17:43:45 ] Jade Constantine > well truth be told
[ 2011.05.17 17:43:50 ] Jade Constantine > the last alliance either of us terminated
[ 2011.05.17 17:43:54 ] Jade Constantine > was probably KD
[ 2011.05.17 17:44:01 ] Krisy Meyren > Didn't AAA kill off CVA?
[ 2011.05.17 17:44:12 ] Bacchanalian > Acheron Federation was mostly the doing of Stimulus quite honestly.
[ 2011.05.17 17:44:50 ] Talerco > I heard SF smashed CVA's morale and left AAA with an easy job
[ 2011.05.17 17:45:10 ] Jade Constantine > you asked a question I answered
[ 2011.05.17 17:45:29 ] Proxay > Cleverbot is similar in function.
[ 2011.05.17 17:45:50 ] Jade Constantine > Still, why talk of old wars we have a new conflict
[ 2011.05.17 17:45:59 ] Usagi Tsukino > Is this a game where someone asks what 1 plus 1 is and we answer 3 and pretend it's reality?
[ 2011.05.17 17:46:03 ] Jade Constantine > and we get to play the heroic underdogs with 10v1 against odds :)
[ 2011.05.17 17:46:15 ] Jade Constantine > its just like old times
[ 2011.05.17 17:46:19 ] Proxay > The war on sobriety rages on for Jade.
[ 2011.05.17 17:46:20 ] Bacchanalian > You always did enjoy playing the martyr.
[ 2011.05.17 17:46:32 ] Jade Constantine > I wouldn't say martyr
[ 2011.05.17 17:46:38 ] Jade Constantine > because I don't intend to die
[ 2011.05.17 17:46:39 ] Jade Constantine > or lose
[ 2011.05.17 17:46:48 ] Jade Constantine > but I do like playing the heroic underdog
[ 2011.05.17 17:46:48 ] Talerco > can't loose if you don't engage
[ 2011.05.17 17:46:49 ] Kedisa > He probablu means your alt they just killed.
[ 2011.05.17 17:47:04 ] Jade Constantine > which alt ?
[ 2011.05.17 17:47:07 ] Kedisa > Claire
[ 2011.05.17 17:47:10 ] Jade Constantine > lol
[ 2011.05.17 17:47:11 ] Kedisa > :P
[ 2011.05.17 17:47:25 ] Jade Constantine > Talerco
[ 2011.05.17 17:47:28 ] Jade Constantine > talk to me about engaging
[ 2011.05.17 17:47:31 ] Jade Constantine > the next time
[ 2011.05.17 17:47:33 ] Jade Constantine > you ever dare
[ 2011.05.17 17:47:38 ] Jade Constantine > fight an engagement
[ 2011.05.17 17:47:43 ] Jade Constantine > without overwhelming odds
[ 2011.05.17 17:47:45 ] Jade Constantine > until then
[ 2011.05.17 17:47:48 ] Jade Constantine > silence is your friend
[ 2011.05.17 17:48:07 ] Talerco > right
[ 2011.05.17 17:48:14 ] Proxay > What
[ 2011.05.17 17:48:15 ] Proxay > are
[ 2011.05.17 17:48:16 ] Proxay > you
[ 2011.05.17 17:48:17 ] Proxay > on
[ 2011.05.17 17:48:18 ] Proxay > about
[ 2011.05.17 17:48:25 ] Usagi Tsukino > A lesson about silence from Jade?
[ 2011.05.17 17:48:33 ] Jade Constantine > I am suggestion you are a risk adverse alliance of cowardly dogs
[ 2011.05.17 17:48:35 ] Usagi Tsukino > Good grief.
[ 2011.05.17 17:48:42 ] Jade Constantine > its fairly blunt :)
[ 2011.05.17 17:50:31 ] Jade Constantine > and to be honest Usagi a lesson in silence from me is every bit as ironic as a lesson in pvp tactics from an ex member of APEX ...
[ 2011.05.17 17:50:34 ] Jade Constantine > /emote grins
[ 2011.05.17 17:51:13 ] Usagi Tsukino > Whut? Sorry it's hard to hear you with that station bulk head between us.
[ 2011.05.17 17:51:24 ] Jade Constantine > why are you docked up?
[ 2011.05.17 17:51:35 ] Bacchanalian > Jade doesn't dock, Jade cloaks.
[ 2011.05.17 17:51:43 ] Jade Constantine > oh I forget
[ 2011.05.17 17:51:52 ] Jade Constantine > you consider cloaks are heretic don't you?
[ 2011.05.17 17:52:23 ] Usagi Tsukino > Oh. Must be the cloaking field then. It was some field of chicken crap disrupting communications. I apoligize.
[ 2011.05.17 17:52:28 ] Jade Constantine > see!
[ 2011.05.17 17:52:30 ] Bacchanalian > Hiding behind one while running your mouth is rather craven. They have their purpose. Providing invulnerability while yammering, however...
[ 2011.05.17 17:52:38 ] Jade Constantine > Aren't you hiding ?
[ 2011.05.17 17:52:46 ] Bacchanalian > I'm sitting in plain sight
[ 2011.05.17 17:52:52 ] Jade Constantine > on an enemy POS
[ 2011.05.17 17:52:56 ] Bacchanalian > Right next to the smoldering wreckage of an SF vessel.
[ 2011.05.17 17:52:58 ] Kedisa > Hiding behind a massive group of friends lol.
[ 2011.05.17 17:53:01 ] Jade Constantine > with every single NAP you can manage
[ 2011.05.17 17:53:06 ] Jade Constantine > in sight
[ 2011.05.17 17:53:11 ] Usagi Tsukino > No. I am sitting on top of a bunch of broken guns waiting for one of your 'freecaptains' to come and 'liberate' me from my ship!
[ 2011.05.17 17:53:15 ] Bacchanalian > Indeed, we have a shocking 2 organizations set blue.
[ 2011.05.17 17:53:27 ] Bacchanalian > It is an embarassingly large number.
[ 2011.05.17 17:53:30 ] Jade Constantine > and about five times our number mind
[ 2011.05.17 17:53:41 ] Jade Constantine > and still you force us to attack towers
[ 2011.05.17 17:53:45 ] Bacchanalian > You have 2/5 organizations set blue?
[ 2011.05.17 17:53:48 ] Jade Constantine > because you lack the courage to assault ours
[ 2011.05.17 17:53:56 ] Bacchanalian > 40% of a single organization, how does that work?
[ 2011.05.17 17:54:06 ] Jade Constantine > it doesn't work at all if you can't count
[ 2011.05.17 17:54:17 ] Bacchanalian > I forced you to do nothing
[ 2011.05.17 17:54:29 ] Usagi Tsukino > Bacch... You forced them....
[ 2011.05.17 17:54:36 ] Usagi Tsukino > I...
[ 2011.05.17 17:54:42 ] Usagi Tsukino > My respect...
[ 2011.05.17 17:54:47 ] Jade Constantine > by you I mean VETO/MOIRA/KAPELLE obviously
[ 2011.05.17 17:54:49 ] Bacchanalian > I may force you to wake up in a clone vat at some point, but as of now you have made your decisions on your own.
[ 2011.05.17 17:54:59 ] Jade Constantine > your cowardice
[ 2011.05.17 17:55:04 ] Jade Constantine > demands that we take action
[ 2011.05.17 17:55:12 ] Jade Constantine > because you insult us by your nature
[ 2011.05.17 17:55:16 ] Talerco > bring it on baby :)
[ 2011.05.17 17:55:20 ] Bacchanalian > By all means, cloak and spew more filth into the neocom
[ 2011.05.17 17:55:30 ] Jade Constantine > filth?
[ 2011.05.17 17:55:36 ] Bacchanalian > Or does SF know another sort of action now?
[ 2011.05.17 17:55:50 ] Jade Constantine > how many wars have you won since you left us Bacchanalian ?
[ 2011.05.17 17:56:05 ] claire xxx > someone wake me up when the smack-fest is over
[ 2011.05.17 17:56:08 ] Bacchanalian > wars? I don't waste my time with CONCORD's bullshit.
[ 2011.05.17 17:56:12 ] Jade Constantine > right
[ 2011.05.17 17:56:15 ] Jade Constantine > so none then
[ 2011.05.17 17:56:41 ] Morwen Lagann > One doesn't need to play along with CONCORD to fight a war, Constantine. Would think you'd know that by now.
[ 2011.05.17 17:56:58 ] Jade Constantine > I asked of wars
[ 2011.05.17 17:56:58 ] Bacchanalian > His experience living in nullsec was rather short lived.
[ 2011.05.17 17:57:05 ] Jade Constantine > and yet
[ 2011.05.17 17:57:09 ] Jade Constantine > in my experience
[ 2011.05.17 17:57:11 ] Usagi Tsukino > Oh hey, Morwen!
[ 2011.05.17 17:57:12 ] Bacchanalian > He may not remember how it works.
[ 2011.05.17 17:57:16 ] Jade Constantine > we built an outpost and lost it
[ 2011.05.17 17:57:22 ] Jade Constantine > more than you have ever dared to do
[ 2011.05.17 17:57:35 ] Bacchanalian > Yes, you claimed ownership of a system.
[ 2011.05.17 17:57:36 ] Usagi Tsukino > You're in fleet and I didn't even see you!
[ 2011.05.17 17:57:37 ] Jade Constantine > crouching in somebody else's station
[ 2011.05.17 17:57:43 ] Bacchanalian > More than any self-respecting freespacer would do.
[ 2011.05.17 17:57:44 ] Jade Constantine > that cannot be taken away from you
[ 2011.05.17 17:57:58 ] Jade Constantine > as you know well
[ 2011.05.17 17:57:58 ] Kedisa > Nah it was always freespace, we never claimed it.
[ 2011.05.17 17:58:06 ] Bacchanalian > Odd
[ 2011.05.17 17:58:12 ] Morwen Lagann > /emote grins > That's a bit silly, given I'm in one of the bigger ships on the field, Usagi. Sure your camera drones are working?
[ 2011.05.17 17:58:23 ] Bacchanalian > When I passed through your system, I wasn't permitted to dock in this free station.
[ 2011.05.17 17:58:32 ] Jade Constantine > you were hostile to the fraction
[ 2011.05.17 17:58:40 ] Bacchanalian > I seem to recall even some of the worst nullsec entities in EVE allowed all to dock in their freeports.
[ 2011.05.17 17:58:42 ] Jade Constantine > we have always shot enemies
[ 2011.05.17 17:58:45 ] Bacchanalian > EC-P8R was once like this.
[ 2011.05.17 17:59:18 ] Jade Constantine > a freeport that allows neutrals to dock is a freeport
[ 2011.05.17 17:59:25 ] Usagi Tsukino > No, I turned them towards the sun to counter the pain rushing into my ears from Jade the Wonderdope.
[ 2011.05.17 17:59:30 ] Usagi Tsukino > So...
[ 2011.05.17 17:59:37 ] Jade Constantine > Oh shut up you silly airhead
[ 2011.05.17 17:59:52 ] Jade Constantine > your elders are talking
[ 2011.05.17 17:59:56 ] Usagi Tsukino > Airhead?
[ 2011.05.17 17:59:57 ] Sturm Gewehr > Yes you silly delictable fruit flavored syrup strip.
[ 2011.05.17 18:00:04 ] Jade Constantine > /emote grins
[ 2011.05.17 18:00:07 ] Usagi Tsukino > Elder?
[ 2011.05.17 18:00:17 ] Usagi Tsukino > Grandpappy Bacch?
[ 2011.05.17 18:00:24 ] Bacchanalian > I am bald, after all.
[ 2011.05.17 18:00:29 ] Jade Constantine > he at least does have a reputation
[ 2011.05.17 18:00:39 ] Jade Constantine > you Usagi are rather much a blank sheet
[ 2011.05.17 18:01:11 ] Usagi Tsukino > Tell me about the days when people had to fly uphill both ways to declare war on nationalist territorial pigdogs, Grandpappy Bacch...
[ 2011.05.17 18:01:29 ] Jade Constantine > you aren't very funny either
[ 2011.05.17 18:01:35 ] Jade Constantine > the Amarrians have far better clowns
[ 2011.05.17 18:01:37 ] Usagi Tsukino > I disagree.
[ 2011.05.17 18:01:53 ] LeoniaTavira > they're called pet minmatar
[ 2011.05.17 18:03:18 ] Jade Constantine > you don't mind if I take a few pictures of you repairing a nationalist tower do you ?
[ 2011.05.17 18:03:24 ] Jade Constantine > for posterity
[ 2011.05.17 18:03:41 ] Morwen Lagann > Would you like us to smile and say "cheese!" while you're at it?
[ 2011.05.17 18:03:51 ] Kedisa > Maybe a thumbs up?
[ 2011.05.17 18:04:22 ] Krisy Meyren > Wouldn't that picture just be a constant remainder of your failure?
[ 2011.05.17 18:04:27 ] Jade Constantine > was more talking to the apparent ex anarchist lackies of Soter's federalists than the washed up piratico-fascist hasbeens Morwen
[ 2011.05.17 18:04:30 ] Krisy Meyren > reminder*
[ 2011.05.17 18:04:44 ] Jade Constantine > our failure to brutalize Moira ?
[ 2011.05.17 18:04:50 ] Krisy Meyren > Piratico!
[ 2011.05.17 18:04:54 ] Jade Constantine > one battle doesn't make the war
[ 2011.05.17 18:04:59 ] Krisy Meyren > Sounds like a pirate version of Tropico
[ 2011.05.17 18:05:06 ] Jade Constantine > I hope you are used to hotdropping in their defense
[ 2011.05.17 18:05:10 ] Jade Constantine > it will be needed a lot
[ 2011.05.17 18:05:36 ] Morwen Lagann > ... I'm afraid you'll have to use smaller words, Jade, it's hard to make out the longer once amidst all the laughter on fleet comms.
[ 2011.05.17 18:05:45 ] Morwen Lagann > Longer ones, sorry.
[ 2011.05.17 18:11:22 ] Jade Constantine > are you going to repair their entire pos by the way?
[ 2011.05.17 18:12:22 ] Usagi Tsukino > Would that make you angry?
[ 2011.05.17 18:12:38 ] Jade Constantine > yes I'd be absolutely furious
[ 2011.05.17 18:12:53 ] Usagi Tsukino > Then yes, yes we will.
[ 2011.05.17 18:12:54 ] Jade Constantine > if you spend your evening here I will probably do deeply disraught
[ 2011.05.17 18:13:08 ] Bacchanalian > Touched is the word I would have chosen.
[ 2011.05.17 18:13:08 ] Usagi Tsukino > Then we will be here all night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[ 2011.05.17 18:13:40 ] Kedisa > Yeah from a member point of view, it would be really demoralising if you were to rep that after we killed everything yesterday so expensively.
[ 2011.05.17 18:13:53 ] Kedisa > So please don't lol.
[ 2011.05.17 18:14:02 ] Jade Constantine > since you are going to be here a while then Bacchanalian why don't we talk a little about your issues with us ?
[ 2011.05.17 18:14:08 ] Usagi Tsukino > In face, I am going to begin terraforming this moon so I can farm cattle and grow wheat.
[ 2011.05.17 18:14:18 ] Usagi Tsukino > *fact
[ 2011.05.17 18:15:26 ] Jade Constantine > come on it'll do you some good to find some closure Bacch
[ 2011.05.17 18:15:40 ] Jade Constantine > I think it was very helpful to Sakura the other week
[ 2011.05.17 18:15:59 ] Bacchanalian > Sakura has far more need than I.
[ 2011.05.17 18:16:18 ] Bacchanalian > Poor girl probably needs a few years on the couch to be quite honest with you. Not right in the head.
[ 2011.05.17 18:16:29 ] Jade Constantine > so come on then lets talk
[ 2011.05.17 18:16:29 ] Usagi Tsukino > Sak's issues extend far past the Star Fraction...
[ 2011.05.17 18:16:50 ] Jade Constantine > about what you see is your role in New Eden now Bacch
[ 2011.05.17 18:16:52 ] Usagi Tsukino > She couldn't find closure if it was on sale at Fedmart.
[ 2011.05.17 18:17:23 ] Bacchanalian > My role for one is to not play word games with Jade Constantine. Feel free to keep blowing hot air though.
[ 2011.05.17 18:17:44 ] Jade Constantine > What else is there for you to do while you are repping?
[ 2011.05.17 18:17:54 ] Sturm Gewehr > fap
[ 2011.05.17 18:18:04 ] Jade Constantine > I'm being polite and offering to help you pass the time
[ 2011.05.17 18:18:19 ] Bacchanalian > I can entertain myself, but thank you.
[ 2011.05.17 18:18:21 ] Usagi Tsukino > Fly over here and uncloak. That would help.
[ 2011.05.17 18:18:43 ] Jade Constantine > I'm sure you don't want your subordinates to get the impression you are somehow afraid of a discussion bacch
[ 2011.05.17 18:19:36 ] Bacchanalian > My subordinates know my actions in space count for far more than my words.
[ 2011.05.17 18:20:02 ] Jade Constantine > then for the benefit of those who are not your subordinates
[ 2011.05.17 18:20:08 ] Jade Constantine > perhaps you'd like to explain
[ 2011.05.17 18:20:11 ] Jade Constantine > what you are for
[ 2011.05.17 18:20:14 ] Usagi Tsukino > I doubt they care.
[ 2011.05.17 18:20:29 ] Usagi Tsukino > You seem to care the most.
[ 2011.05.17 18:20:34 ] Usagi Tsukino > You're OBSESSED.
[ 2011.05.17 18:20:39 ] Jade Constantine > hmmmm
[ 2011.05.17 18:20:41 ] Usagi Tsukino > It's weird.
[ 2011.05.17 18:20:52 ] Usagi Tsukino > W-E-I-R-D.
[ 2011.05.17 18:20:59 ] Jade Constantine > but somehow I'm not the one repping up an ultra nationalist pigdog tower
[ 2011.05.17 18:21:10 ] Jade Constantine > just to find some kind of jab at an old comrade now
[ 2011.05.17 18:21:12 ] Jade Constantine > am I ?
[ 2011.05.17 18:21:22 ] Usagi Tsukino > That would be even weird, consindering you're the one who damaged it.
[ 2011.05.17 18:21:37 ] Scaeva > our statist counterrevolution will continue in the face of your primitive utopian ideals
[ 2011.05.17 18:21:39 ] Usagi Tsukino > *weirder
[ 2011.05.17 18:21:47 ] Jade Constantine > you find it wierd that we seek to harm pigdog nationalists now ?
[ 2011.05.17 18:21:59 ] Usagi Tsukino > ....pay attention.
[ 2011.05.17 18:22:18 ] Jade Constantine > you are difficult to follow because you are remarkably stupid
[ 2011.05.17 18:22:37 ] Bacchanalian > I'll take stupid over crazy myself.
[ 2011.05.17 18:22:57 ] Jade Constantine > why exactly do you think I am crazy Bacch?
[ 2011.05.17 18:23:11 ] Usagi Tsukino > I guess Constanitis is contagious....
[ 2011.05.17 18:23:19 ] Jade Constantine > weak
[ 2011.05.17 18:23:31 ] Jade Constantine > "you are" is so pre high school
[ 2011.05.17 18:23:51 ] Usagi Tsukino > I know, I know.
[ 2011.05.17 18:24:16 ] Usagi Tsukino > Lucky for me though I am not trying to impress myself with my words, so... Meh. I don't care.
[ 2011.05.17 18:24:38 ] Jade Constantine > who are you trying to impress?
[ 2011.05.17 18:25:42 ] Usagi Tsukino > No one. I have no one to impress with my words. My actions have far more than proven my worth. You're the one who seems to need to try and impress people.
[ 2011.05.17 18:25:45 ] Usagi Tsukino > Just sayin'.
[ 2011.05.17 18:30:05 ] Jade Constantine > Example ?
[ 2011.05.17 18:30:15 ] Jade Constantine > what have you achieved with your actions ?
[ 2011.05.17 18:31:49 ] Scaeva > Well we're helping you achieve your daily word count aren't we?
[ 2011.05.17 18:32:03 ] Scaeva > Not that you need much assistance in that department
[ 2011.05.17 18:34:11 ] Jade Constantine > it was not a hard question I asked you
[ 2011.05.17 18:34:16 ] Jade Constantine > surely?
[ 2011.05.17 18:34:29 ] Gaven Darklighter > Galvanized wtf are you doing here?
[ 2011.05.17 18:35:06 ] Bacchanalian > Yeah, no Pikeys allowed!
[ 2011.05.17 18:35:08 ] Galvanized > reading local atm :)
[ 2011.05.17 18:35:18 ] Gaven Darklighter > typical
[ 2011.05.17 18:35:20 ] Galvanized > been a good read for the last 30 mins or so ^^
[ 2011.05.17 18:35:25 ] Gaven Darklighter > while ship spinning i assume :-p
[ 2011.05.17 18:35:37 ] Galvanized > nah ive been running 5's next door lol
[ 2011.05.17 18:35:46 ] Gaven Darklighter > that Jade person seems pretty teartastic
[ 2011.05.17 18:35:54 ] Gaven Darklighter > ahh nice location for it
[ 2011.05.17 18:36:27 ] Galvanized > I've come to the conclusion their is some history between them !
[ 2011.05.17 18:37:22 ] Gaven Darklighter > probably ex-lovers
[ 2011.05.17 18:37:36 ] Scaeva > I think its more of a case of who wants to be big spoon
[ 2011.05.17 18:37:38 ] Gaven Darklighter > you don't get this amount of cattiness otherwise
[ 2011.05.17 18:37:39 ] Bacchanalian > Did he just call me Revan?
[ 2011.05.17 18:37:44 ] Bacchanalian > I think he just called me Revan.
[ 2011.05.17 18:38:37 ] Sable Schroedinger > if the glove fits ;)
[ 2011.05.17 18:38:48 ] Jade Constantine > I think it was some kind of jilted lover thing yes
[ 2011.05.17 18:39:11 ] Gaven Darklighter > well you were half the party so do tell
[ 2011.05.17 18:39:22 ] Gaven Darklighter > nothing better than romance in Eve
[ 2011.05.17 18:40:38 ] Jade Constantine > its an old story but a fairly common one amongst revolutionaries
[ 2011.05.17 18:40:58 ] Jade Constantine > comrades at arms fight the tyrants and win some victories
[ 2011.05.17 18:41:09 ] Jade Constantine > but then fall out about methods and targets and such
[ 2011.05.17 18:41:26 ] Jade Constantine > and end up hating each other worse than they ever hated the imperialist tyrants they once opposed
[ 2011.05.17 18:41:54 ] Jade Constantine > because revolutionaries need hierarchist targets to shoot their bullets at
[ 2011.05.17 18:42:14 ] Jade Constantine > but they hate ex comrades and splitters and those who refuse to die even more
[ 2011.05.17 18:42:50 ] Jade Constantine > we could probably write a soft rock ballad or get leonard cohen to do a song about it :)
[ 2011.05.17 18:47:56 ] Bacchanalian > You okay Jade? You've been quiet for an awfully long time, I'm worried.
[ 2011.05.17 18:48:14 ] Jade Constantine > you must be going deaf
[ 2011.05.17 18:49:18 ] Scaeva > more like blind at having to read your drivel
[ 2011.05.17 18:51:09 ] Jade Constantine > you don't sound that happy
[ 2011.05.17 19:11:48 ] Kokochu Korguz > Honeychild, we are all sorts of shades of happy!
[ 2011.05.17 19:12:36 ] Kokochu Korguz > It's like a total happiness overload up in here.
[ 2011.05.17 19:24:33 ] LeoniaTavira > nice bounty Jasmine Constantine did you have to put that on yourself?
[ 2011.05.17 19:26:14 ] Jasmine Constantine > if I wanted a dogs opinion I'd visit the pound
A quick count shows 136 instances of 'Jade Constantine' speaking in local. At the risk of being labeled 'unconstructive', you really do have some nerve to come around and complain of smacktalk.
edited to add: Yes, I smack talked. And I was proud of it. Usagi's a dick. I'm not in VETO though.
-
As for why Jade was banned, I can't say if what I was told by Ashar at the time was the real reason or not, but it was to keep the peace of the channel. History had shown that Jade in that channel was a recipe for humongous arguments and IC/OoC crossovers that happened out of the blue and with no warning, which in turn spawned even more arguments. I've locked horns with Jade in those channels myself and was partly to blame for a few of them, but they apparently had a tendency to happen whether or not I was there.
I don't know if this was the real reason, but that is the reason I was given when I asked.
-
A quick count shows 136 instances of 'Jade Constantine' speaking in local. At the risk of being labeled 'unconstructive', you really do have some nerve to come around and complain of smacktalk. edited to add: Yes, I smack talked. And I was proud of it. Usagi's a dick. I'm not in VETO though.
There is a world of difference between lowbrow ooc insults/ascii penis posting/4chan grotesqueries AND credible in-character local debate. In the "136" instances of Jade speaking in local there you will be hard pressed to find a single thing she said that was not entirely in character and appropriate to the situation at hand (which is propagandizing Rote/Veto support of Moira in hand-holding the tower repping)
(well aside from the Leonard Cohen reference but I put that in purely to make Atandros smile)
You can certainly argue that your roleplay is "being a dick" but isn't that exactly the kind of thing we're all beginning to agree shouldn't be the rationalization here?
I really see no reason why interactions in local chat cannot be even-tempered and professional. Which was precisely what I was asking for.
I am not asking for silence or people to behave like nuns. I'm asking for discussion to be kept in-character and not slip into thinly disguised ooc personality assassination for the purposes of ruining the atmosphere and enjoyment of all.
We are fighting a war that everybody wants to fight and in-character propaganda is expected and part and parcel of the interaction.
-
Oh, it works fine. I do it all the time. If you don't want to get things fired up into smack, I recommend not going "You are the tyrant" and "If I wanted a dog's opinion I'd ask " and so on. Jade debating something IC is kind of like an omnidirectional rasp. No matter which way you rub someone, you're drawing blood intentionally, and when the sharks get a whiff of that... Well, what are you expecting?
I've had a lot of very nice conversations with wartargets these days, and anyone who knows Miz should know that 'very nice' isn't part of her repertoire. It's quite doable to avoid these ridiculous local logs, you just have to know when to shut up or when to give which responses.
-
Jade debating something IC is kind of like an omnidirectional rasp. No matter which way you rub someone, you're drawing blood intentionally, and when the sharks get a whiff of that... Well, what are you expecting?
I never claimed that getting into an IC debate with Jade while repping an ultra-nationalist tower in contradiction of one's vaunted principles would be a pleasant IC experience Mizhara. But it can at least a professional (non ooc insulting) one.
I think it's not that useful to make the point that "well she was asking for it" for IC local debate turns to vile smackfest situations. You might as well claim that we are all "asking for it" when we log into eve to expect the worst possible behaviour from our fellow players. Somewhere, someone does need to say something about standards.
+++
For the sake of clarity its worth pointing out that this log is probably veto/kapelle on their absolute best local behaviour. The several previous logs that Usagi has not posted (from previous clashes and flareups) are considerably better examples of the kind of behaviour I contacted Verone to see if we could prevent. Perhaps Usagi might consider updating her post with those? Though on balance I'm not sure they would be appropriate material here.
-
As for why Jade was banned, I can't say if what I was told by Ashar at the time was the real reason or not, but it was to keep the peace of the channel. History had shown that Jade in that channel was a recipe for humongous arguments and IC/OoC crossovers that happened out of the blue and with no warning, which in turn spawned even more arguments. I've locked horns with Jade in those channels myself and was partly to blame for a few of them, but they apparently had a tendency to happen whether or not I was there.
I don't know if this was the real reason, but that is the reason I was given when I asked.
Well that hypothesis is easy enough to check isn't it?
Lets see if it does lead to massive IC/OOC crossover rows in that channel.
There isn't much to lose finding out surely?
-
[mod]This thread is locked for moderator consideration[/mod]