Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 28 Sep 2010, 10:58
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This is actually not another ERP thread, no. In fact, it is a discussion of personal experience in RP and that which I think others might have experienced themselves.
Very often, "the Summit" channel becomes a location of RP that is not really IC, but merely a competition of OOC egoes via an IC method. OOC insults and slurs are disguised as thinly veiled IC remarks...Seriphyn/I get the odd "Needs to get laid" remark which just makes me go wat?! because, as many of you know, Seri gets laid all the damn time lol.
I'm not innocent of this, the issue develops in a way that once the OOC-thru-IC horn clash starts, my natural reaction is to respond in kind, you know, get defensive. Though I intend to curb that response by firstly being aware of it, and then go from there.
So, question 1 is how many people experience this sort of RP? The RP where it is less about characters interacting, but merely players using their characters to claim innocence that it is all 'just IC'?
Secondly, and a bit of an agony wall here, but I'm beginning to feel rather bullied/griefed/whatever in-game due to my current, freedom nazi RP. A remark IC was "You consistently portray yourself as a celebrity"...in actuality that is an OOC remark, because I myself portray Seriphyn in-character as a celebrity, in accordance with PF that quite explicitly states "The prestige enjoyed by the capsuleer is enormous. Apart from the celebrity status many of them enjoy they receive a number of other privileges" (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=jul03). The RP is that Seriphyn never portrays himself as a celebrity, but the status is thrust upon him, due to frequent "b-lining" and interaction with the public. This applies to at least half of people with fame in reality, AFAIK.
In addition, the OOC-thru-IC sentiments I feel is summed up as "You are not RPing as how I think you should, you will stop RPing like this or face the consequences". Sure, this could be a massive misinterpretation, and it really could just be purely IC, but when remarks from the same person are "This never happened" and "Capsuleers have no home", it begins to get troublesome.
As folks know, I'm not a very big "HTFU" type, and lil oversensitive, so, the second question is how often do people encounter this, and what do they do to overcome it?
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how often do people encounter this, and what do they do to overcome it?
Too often. And when it happens. I facepalm. Hard.
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[Edit:] Let me see where this goes before I go dropping advice.
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I've encountered this a bit.
OOC, I'm a bubbly, gossipy, whatever.
IC, Shalee doesn't really care about gossip and tends to shy away about prying into people's past because she doesn't want people prying into hers. (unless she gets really close to you)
I've had a few players who were annoyed with me claim that Shalee was gossipy and meddlesome and some other things, which I thought were unfair, just because they didn't like how the RP ended up for them.
As for what to do about it? I dunno. People are going to think what they want, so I try to just let it go and not let it matter too much. You can attempt to work it out with whoever is saying whatever, but if they don't want to bother, then just stay away from them.
Also, if this post is directed at just one person, then it's probably better to go work things out with that person rather than make a whole discussion about it here.
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I've too ran into it. I think the worst case was where I was starting up RIA, and I had someone, I don't even remember who, call me out and go "you're not an angel, I don't believe you" and its like...um, I'm trying to RP here, suspension of disbelief? The problem is there is no way to respond to that ICly, other then to try and, I guess prove the other person wrong, or hope they ignore that person. its just really annoying.
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I think I already said something to this effect, but it's appropriate here, so I'll streamline it.
Admittedly, I haven't made much of a splash on the RP scene (I'm trying, I promise ><), so I don't know how often this actually happens.
However, I find it somewhat difficult to NOT see this occurring, considering the RP community as I've seen it. I'm not sure if it originates from the extremely fractioning present in EVE, where even members from the same race and background can have radically different allegiances, or if its a result of the inherent distrust the EVE universe is built on. Either way, the fact is it takes a very certain person to RP with no attachments to their characters.
Case in point, I have a hard time RPing any character in any universe, if I don't in some way, however small, agree with them. My evil characters' causes need a sliver of truth or understandable ends behind them. I attribute this as a slight weakness, because to get into character, I have to be RPing something I can attach myself to - if you asked me to RP a Gallente female journalist, I'd be up a creek. I creek I hate. Filled with leeches and piranha.
My point is, we're attached to our characters for the most part. So to see them personally attacked brings on a little bit of ire. We don't want to see them get betrayed by an enemy that, while obvious OOC is hidden ICly. Following along that line, some shred of our personal beliefs is imbued in our characters, and the easiest way to set off a war is by insulting someone's personal beliefs.
TL;DR, if I insult your favorite footy team, I've said nothing about YOU personally. But it wouldn't be a stretch for you to sock me in the face for it.
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I have long stated (in multiple RP communities) that roleplayers tend not to separate IC and OOC as well as we think we do. Including yours truly.
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You can hold whatever position you like. But the more extreme the public position, the more resistance you will face.
Seriphyn's character had, at one point, began complaining that my character was picking on him, ICly. Soter-the-character responded: don't you see the irony of saying you're being picked on, while you're kidnapping innocent civilians? Seriphyn-the-character had no response. The discussion ended due to moderation.
Now, there's an in-character disagreement that exists here. It is limited to that. Our RP positions can be diametrically opposed in many ways, while being limited to that, RP positions. However, taking it to the point of personal grievances is a bit far-fetched.
Saying that you're being 'oppressed' for your RP choices is essentially stating that, ICly, your character's behavior and operations are in some manner being curtailed or limited. That is clearly not the case. My character can, of course, do that, if he feels it is necessary.
Saying you're being 'oppressed' for your RP choices OOCly is just rather bizarre. The characters are what interact, not the people. Seriphyn the player and I haven't spoken in a month or two, save perhaps a PF debate or something. PF debates are legitimate interactions over differing interpretations of what limited information CCP provides us. Our interpretations of PF may or may not determine certain differences in our in-character responses. However, they do generate greater understanding of the situation and context to our character responses.
We could say, for instance, that the Black Eagles really are ruthless and evil to keep the Federation 'strong'. Well, that might be true, but my character will still disagree with the necessity and the means of such an approach, as such, he will argue against the actions taken under the aegis of the SDII. My OOC understand of the situation is largely the same as everyone else's. But my character's position has been laid over years of RP, namely, what he views as a principled interpretation of classical liberalism and the Federation founding documents.
He will go to such lengths as publicly condemn what he views to be unconstitutional acts of said government should they adopt policy that undermines said principles.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1225555&page=1#3
But yes. I think that about covers it. I'll make clarifications as necessary.
Also, didn't Seriphyn Inhonores have a product line of something with his name endorsing them, or something? Things like that are what my character used to found his IC statement towards seriphyn-the-character.
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Soter if you can keep this notions to IC only, that's completely fine.
The issue is that, in tandem with these IC remarks, in OOC there were criticisms that went in time with it, how my "RP was wrong" blahblah, how I'd have to RP just a normal capsuleer after Incarna...
I won't get into it because I think a little exposure to this topic can put things on the right track, and from the looks of things, I think they can, so fields be green.
The original topic remains a point of discussion however.
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I've yet to see any specific examples of said OOC attacks.
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I think the problem I have with your approach, Soter, is that your character often tends to simply ignore the CCP-defined nature of the Federation. It isn't, according to lore, a perfect classically-liberal democracy. Actually, it's often (aside from TonyG materials) portrayed as a near-dystopian Brave New World-style democracy with the masses anesthetized by entertainment and excess. And the Caldari State is 1984, the Amarr Empire is the Church Militant With Lasers, and the Republic is Sudan.
Ah, wait, I've been reading too much Warhammer 40k again. Perhaps things aren't that bad.
But humor aside, the fact is that CCP has repeatedly stated that the Eve cluster is a dark and uncaring universe. You can't have a warm and idealistic Federation/State/Empire/Republic in a dark and uncaring environment, unless of course they exist solely to be crushed like bugs. Since none of the four empires are getting crushed like bugs, and since CCP does not characterize any of them as shining examples of humanity, it's logical to conclude that they are all deeply flawed.
What does one do when one is trying to defend a deeply flawed organization? Especially when, thanks to FTL communication, one can have examples of the flaws immediately? Well, the same way one justifies flaws today: excuse it, exalt a flaw as a virtue, ad hominem the accuser, etc.
This is one reason I love Seriphyn's SDII rp - he takes one of the Federation's flaws (extremism/hypocrisy) and makes it a virtue (to himself). This happens in real life - this is realistic - and it's very interesting to watch a man who believes himself fundamentally decent and humane do horrible things in the name of something he believes is good. Could his character but realize it, he would see that he is being exactly like Tibus Heth or Sansha Kuvakei, but he is so blinded by his self-righteousness that he doesn't.
That's great RP.
But your character's consistent response to his rp and his actions has been denial and to undercut him at every turn, and I can easily see how Seriphyn could assume that this stems from an OOC desire to eliminate any negative portrayal of the Federation or its policies. I can see that, because that's exactly the way someone would treat Seriphyn if they were trying to undermine his RP.
Now, I'm not trying to attack you personally, here, so let's be clear that I'm assuming this is not intentional.
I can understand replying to someone in this way if they create unreasonable situations: if someone were to post stating that Tibus Heth had personally expelled their family from the State after they caught him embezzling cash, I'd be the first to call them nuts. But Seriphyn's RP is not unreasonable. In the past, we've had the Federation attempt to take over a Caldari station, "disappear" teachers for not toeing the party line, burn an admiral alive in front of thousands, and a long list of other actions that make the antics of Seriphyn's SDII look like well-reasoned tactics.
I don't automatically reject as a liar anyone who posts something bad about the Caldari State. Most of the time I excuse it, or justify it, or argue the point, or any number of other things. This allows our characters and theirs to both defend their points of view without anyone getting the "your RP is wrong" message, which is good, and letting us put forth our disparate visions of what a faction is.
I think there are many opportunities for you to do this in the current situation. You could petition a Senator to investigate these activities, or work with Seriphyn to implement an arc where Soter tries to cut down on the SDII's excesses. There are a million and one ways to resolve a problem other than "you are lying", which is, in any case, hardly fun as far as storytelling goes. There's no need for antagonism here, especially amongst players in the same faction.
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One does not need to ignore or acknowledge anything. My character fights for what he desires. At no point does he claim anything about any NPC organization or entity.
He has a vision. He speaks for it. He is far more insurgent of a personality than many people currently understand. And if time allows for it, that might become more evident.
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In response to Vikarion, I don't believe that the world of EVE is completely dark; on planets and some stations, for instance, one might find more positive activities to do, especially in the Federation.
I'll post a detailed response on my thoughts later today about the main issue here.
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It should also be noted that it is probably generally more realistic when a character has a somewhat flawed view of the universe - including their own and other factions. I'm sure that if you asked 10 different people living in the Federation, you would get 10 wildly different views of 'what the Federation is.'
Even from 'outside', as players, given the paucity of material (relative to the complexity and size of the 'IG Reality') that we have to work with, there is plenty of room for debate. And we have the luxury of a fairly detached outside view.
On the matter of celebrity: I would suggest that while podders are celebrities of a sort, there is a big difference between being a celebrity of whatever stripe to the general public, and a celebrity among other podders.
If we are going with the idea that every podder is something of a celebrity (to those who aren't podders) then it seems unlikely that the average podder would be talking about said celebrity status to other podders. After all, they're celebrities too.
Now, some podders are more famous than others, and indeed are famous within the podder community itself. That is a slightly different situation. I can't say that any of my characters would view Seriphyn that way. Chribba (and there are IC reasons), Istvaan, Evanda Char, etc. - sure.
I would also add that while being a podder in general may confer celebrity status, it may not translate into being known personally cluster-wide. That is, people who know you are a podder might treat you like a celebrity, and people who would have heard of you because you are from their town, or frequent their station, or what have you, might have heard of you, but I have serious doubts that everyone in the cluster knows of every podder. I would think that more generally, 'Podders' as a group are celebrities.
An analogy might be professional sports players. To make this international-friendly, lets go with football (soccer). Everyone knows who David Beckham is - that's your Chribba or Sir Molle. Many people probably know everyone on the teams that they support. Very few people in say, Europe, are probably familiar with every player on various South Korean professional teams. But professional soccer (football) players as a group are still celebrities, of more or less acclaim depending on location.
That would be my view. Celebrity is a fairly tricky thing, even in RL. It is no doubt more complicated in Eve.
Edit: I realized I didn't address some of the op. I would say that often times many IC relationships are adversarial. Further, I would suggest that if you think that someone is using IC to cover for an OOC problem with you, you address it OOC. Finally, I would suggest that if you can't resolve it, you simply block the person. If you sincerely believe that is what they are doing, and you aren't gaining anything from it - enjoyment or character progression or whatever - then there is no reason to continue interacting with them. Ignore them.
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It is one of the reasons I rarely read the IGS anymore, and the Summit is one of those channels I am mostly in just to show my face on the list. Shame of the good stuff I am missing out on.
There was also the "lol ur no angel anymore" when I was in Veto. Like, you know, being part of a group means you automatically and totally take over everything that group stands for. Not sure if I should be shocked or grateful for such naive way of thinking.
As to how I deal with it? Well, see previous paragraph, I ridicule it, because it is quite frankly a silly thing. People tend to reap what they sow, so there ain't much effort to be put into it. And I'd rather spend my effort doing something productive and worthwhile.
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If we are going with the idea that every podder is something of a celebrity (to those who aren't podders) then it seems unlikely that the average podder would be talking about said celebrity status to other podders. After all, they're celebrities too.
Now, some podders are more famous than others, and indeed are famous within the podder community itself. That is a slightly different situation. I can't say that any of my characters would view Seriphyn that way. Chribba (and there are IC reasons), Istvaan, Evanda Char, etc. - sure.
I would also add that while being a podder in general may confer celebrity status, it may not translate into being known personally cluster-wide. That is, people who know you are a podder might treat you like a celebrity, and people who would have heard of you because you are from their town, or frequent their station, or what have you, might have heard of you, but I have serious doubts that everyone in the cluster knows of every podder. I would think that more generally, 'Podders' as a group are celebrities.
An analogy might be professional sports players. To make this international-friendly, lets go with football (soccer). Everyone knows who David Beckham is - that's your Chribba or Sir Molle. Many people probably know everyone on the teams that they support. Very few people in say, Europe, are probably familiar with every player on various South Korean professional teams. But professional soccer (football) players as a group are still celebrities, of more or less acclaim depending on location.
That would be my view. Celebrity is a fairly tricky thing, even in RL. It is no doubt more complicated in Eve.
As I see it, if you have to go around telling people that you're a celebrity, then you're not really a celebrity.
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An analogy might be professional sports players. To make this international-friendly, lets go with football (soccer). Everyone knows who David Beckham is - that's your Chribba or Sir Molle. Many people probably know everyone on the teams that they support. Very few people in say, Europe, are probably familiar with every player on various South Korean professional teams. But professional soccer (football) players as a group are still celebrities, of more or less acclaim depending on location.
I very much doubt Chribba and Sir Molle can claim higher fame than Seriphyn if we look at the total population of New Eden and not just capsuleers alone. I of course assume that the core worlds of New Eden are vastly more populated than the fringe worlds.
Consider the nature of pop-fame and who the gossip magazines write about. There is always greater attention towards celebrities most people can relate to. Pretty much all federation citizens will have interest in the war with the Caldari and will pay attention to what a high profile person like Seriphyn has to say on the subject. Especially as he makes effort to follow the general opinion, riding the wave like a true pop-idol.
What care does a common federation citizen have about what Sir Molle and gang are doing somewhere far away and totally independent from the federation, even less how much Veldspar Chribba has managed to mine so far.
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The question is not if seriphyn is a "celeberity". It is whether considering him a person seeking celebrity status in-character is an out of character attack or not. :P
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I said that if you can keep it IC, then the beef is gone...but if you want specific quotes then...
[ 2010.09.15 00:42:59 ] Julianus Soter > btw seriphyn.
[ 2010.09.15 00:43:02 ] Julianus Soter > I just called you out.
[ 2010.09.15 00:43:08 ] Julianus Soter > There were no hangings. full stop.
[ 2010.09.15 00:51:54 ] Julianus Soter > when incarna comes, seriphyn.
[ 2010.09.15 00:52:01 ] Julianus Soter > you're just going to be another dude in a suit who goes to bars.
[ 2010.09.15 00:52:05 ] Julianus Soter > You won't have minions.
[ 2010.09.15 00:52:16 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > i thought crew were minions :(
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[mod]Please take specific disputes to PMs.[/mod]
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The hangings issue was an ancillary topic. Your character can say whatever you want to say in public. But mycharacter can say whatever he wants to say in public, also. Without any definitive evidence or proof forming the basis of said statements, it becomes a game of dueling banjos. There's no meaning to any of it because none of it has any substance behind it. That was the purpose of my character's response and my discussion with you OOC, and those quotes. I had grown frustrated with the whole IGS deal.
As an example, your character can say that Tibus Heth liked action figures as a young child, and my character might counter he used a fusion-powered pogo stick, and never played with dolls. Because we have no PF regarding Tibus Heth's childhood, there's no way to evaluate who is right or who is wrong. Saying that because I claim a different IC position than your character, I'm OOC trying to undermine your roleplay, is silly. This applies in general, as well. A person holding different IC viewpoints and positions isn't undermining a player. It's a character-character interaction.
As an ancillary topic, body-snatching humans from planets is all well and good. You will face in-character consequences for it. Amarrians see that all the time. However, claiming legal legitimacy to do so, attaching yourself to a NPC organization for which there is extremely limited information about. . . and indeed, it is implied that all operations of said NPC organization would be highly classified, discrete, and secret anyway, seems to strain belief, OOC and IC. That causes the present set of disputes between myself and Seriphyn, but it's an example of a larger problem roleplayers can have when dealing with NPC organzations, like the Dominations, or a megacorporation. I think it's an object lesson/discussion we should assess to improve our RP into the future.
Bringing that back to the purpose of this thread, there will be discussions about what is good RP procedure because of interactions with NPC organizations, and what breaches plausibility/believability. Discussions of that nature necessarily need to occur out of character. However, like any rational discussion between human beings, taking a different side to an issue does not necessarily imply there is a form of antipathy or animosity. Perhaps momentary frustration can occur. But raising an issue of RP procedure discussion to a personal dispute is pretty absurd, in my opinion.
Some people may try to strong-arm a player's character into a niche, saying that they can't RP their characters a certain way. That is not a valid approach. However, observing what their character is, and formulating in-character responses towards or against said character, or conducting OOC discussions regarding plausibility, are entirely valid approaches, and indeed, are vital if roleplay is to survive.
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It is one of the reasons I rarely read the IGS anymore, and the Summit is one of those channels I am mostly in just to show my face on the list. Shame of the good stuff I am missing out on.
There was also the "lol ur no angel anymore" when I was in Veto. Like, you know, being part of a group means you automatically and totally take over everything that group stands for. Not sure if I should be shocked or grateful for such naive way of thinking.
As to how I deal with it? Well, see previous paragraph, I ridicule it, because it is quite frankly a silly thing. People tend to reap what they sow, so there ain't much effort to be put into it. And I'd rather spend my effort doing something productive and worthwhile.
Three words: New Eden Assembly
back me up councileroz
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Three words: New Eden Assembly
back me up councileroz
I concur.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/izumizagari/sanshaaaaaa.gif)
Eh? You guys overthink things I thinks. People feel more comfortable talking about/rping about stuff they understand so that's what they'll talk about. It's a normal human thing.
Now if you made your character's personality a certain way you can get away with tapping on the 4th wall a bit. :D
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I don't think I call you awesome nearly often enough Izzy.
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Too much individuality imo. Carrying over RP from multiple mediums.
No such thing as an emo cutter vampire master of fetishes who flies spaceships in EVE. Oh, wait, can't "hinder RP creativity".
Sorry for my tone, but there are limits.
EDIT: Not talking about you, Nikita. Just in general, the overall "vampire" feel of RP I see that crosses normal Sani Sabik boundaries.
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Too much individuality imo. Carrying over RP from multiple mediums.
No such thing as an emo cutter vampire master of fetishes who flies spaceships in EVE. Oh, wait, can't "hinder RP creativity".
Sorry for my tone, but there are limits.
EDIT: Not talking about you, Nikita. Just in general, the overall "vampire" feel of RP I see that crosses normal Sani Sabik boundaries.
Also, this.
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Ben I worked with the blooders directly and never saw an emo cutter vampire master of fetishes. A few might have been emo but that's about it.
Most of the weirdies I see usually hide in their own special bars anyways. Just avoid the bars, avoid the weirdies. I find them fascinating though.
Just cuz they be different doesn't mean it's totally bad. It's when they won't stop whoring it up to get attention is when the silly bar gets crossed.
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Ben I worked with the blooders directly and never saw an emo cutter vampire master of fetishes. A few might have been emo but that's about it.
Most of the weirdies I see usually hide in their own special bars anyways. Just avoid the bars, avoid the weirdies. I find them fascinating though.
Just cuz they be different doesn't mean it's totally bad. It's when they won't stop whoring it up to get attention is when the silly bar gets crossed.
Yeah, I'll agree with Izzy here. We really don't have twitards rping in eve. The only person I know who strays close to being a "space vampire" is definitely not emo in any way, and is actually one of the most level headed people I interact with.
I will say, there are issues with RP being carried over from other mediums, things like Ber Kan's Umbrella Corp, where its like....wat? But I think the people who do that, are the ones who are new and don't understand the setting or have anyone to help teach them. Once they learn about the real game universe, they realize they don't need to pull in other media to make it interesting.
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I hear the term space vampires used a lot but have yet to see anyone in Eve who acts out that character. What are you referring to Benjamin/Senn?
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I hear the term space vampires used a lot but have yet to see anyone in Eve who acts out that character. What are you referring to Benjamin?
I may act that out a bit. I'm probably more space vampire then really Sani Sabik.
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There is nothing wrong with being inspired from other media to make your own stories. Inspiration is the building blocks of making cool shit.
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There is nothing wrong with being inspired from other media to make your own stories. Inspiration is the building blocks of making cool shit.
yes, but there is a difference between being inspired by something, and just ripping the entire thing off wholesale.
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yes, but there is a difference between being inspired by something, and just ripping the entire thing off wholesale.
THIS THIS THIS.
Casiella has some specific (and general) inspirations from cyberpunk, but I'd be a dumbass if I tried to make her a carbon copy of Trinity or YT ("Snow Crash") or Molly ("Neuromancer").
Other characters I've started to ramp up also have inspiration from various genres and fictional universes, but I pick and choose elements rather than simply imitate anything. Nikita and Izzy and others do that, too, and that's useful, but I don't like dealing with folks who just want to play Han Solo directly.
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And don't Forget Han Solo's Relatives Cassie:
Hans Solo
Haan Solo
Hahn Solo
Hann Solo
Han Sollo
Han S0lo
Han Sol0
Han Soulo
Han Sulo
Han Solu
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Or "Mal Reynolds", "Captain Mal", and 18 million variations. Yeah.
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I thought Cruella Devolle was a pretty neat character. :D
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Spend 15 minutes checking out characters with names linked to LotR. :D
Not to mention Shrike...
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Eeeerrrm ... Just remember that not all people were looking for RP names during the charater creation process.
Just because a charater has a name inspired by a movie or book doesnt mean the person had any thoughts further than "a name ... Gee, this may sound nice. Hrrrm, its taken. Ill just change a letter ... ".
Just like how I had no RP thoughts or inspiration when I thought "name? Yes, a breakfast cereal will make a good sounding charater name ..."
But I agree with ripping off entire charaters, but you cant assume someone is ripping off an entire charater based on what the player chose to name it.
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And don't Forget Han Solo's Relatives Cassie:
Hans Solo
Haan Solo
Hahn Solo
Hann Solo
Han Sollo
Han S0lo
Han Sol0
Han Soulo
Han Sulo
Han Solu
There's quite a few Muad Dibs out there too (Maud Dib being the best variation).
People who rip off the names of fictional characters are destroying originality.
Oh wait...