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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Lyn Farel on 03 Mar 2013, 12:44
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We all know the chronicle behind the symbolism of the Amarr logo, and by deduction, the Khanid one (can't find the chronicle section anymore on their maze website... >.>)
I wanted to create a thread where we can share or imagine the symbolism that can lie behind other logos as well. I am not especially refering to what it inspires everyone to see the style of any logo (we all understand that the Caldari logo being bold, fat, using base shapes, and solid represents their mindset), but the symbolism that lies behind.
Why an eagle for the Federation ? Where does that eagle comes from ?
Why that snail shaped series of rounded shapes for the Minmatar ?
I think the Caldari one might be somewhat less esoteric with its huge "C", but well, who knows ?
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-os3I2moO81Q/Tqo7DFP9mXI/AAAAAAAAAFw/WI0EgYOPQ9Q/s400/1280x1024-minmatar.jpg)
Well, it's a hilariously badly thought out idea which I just came up with in about 5 seconds, but it could represent an enslaved nation "coming out of it's shell" so to speak.
I'll have to think about this more thoroughly, and check evelopedia though.
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I think the Caldari one might be somewhat less esoteric with its huge "C", but well, who knows ?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Comedy_Central_2011_Logo.png)
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(can't find the chronicle section anymore on their maze website... >.>)
Signs of Faith (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Signs_of_Faith_%28Chronicle%29) is what you're looking for.
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Imperial Seal (and by extension, Khanid Seal) (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Signs_of_Faith_(Chronicle))
There's the chronicle, for you.
As for others... Sarum Family seal is pretty obvious. Crossed swords representing the most combative royal House. The swords have two guards for possibly the same reason that the Ardishapur Family has two bars on their cross: heraldry for combination of spirit and earth (http://img0.etsystatic.com/000/0/5331281/il_fullxfull.346447056.jpg). Though the guards on the swords are curved instead of straight, which might have another meaning.
Ardishapur Family symbology is given on the wiki page. It combines the eye of God with the combined symbol of spirit and earth, meaning that God watches over the soul of the Empire. The wiki page also says that some detractors see it instead as impaling the eye, meaning "Blind to God by worldly cares." The Khumak essentially uses this symbol, so most Minmatar would probably see the Ardishapur symbol in a very negative light.
Kador Family uses a form of the First Sign (union of God and man). A semi-circle with the point, and multiple circles within it. Likely referring to the Kador Family being the birth House of most emperors, thus the House closest to God. Why it's only a semi-circle, and why it has multiple circles inside of it is less clear. The multiple circles could mean "multiple emperors", and the fact that First Sign depicted as a semi-circle could indicate the union of emperor and man rather than God and man.
Kor-Azor is hard to decipher. We have a single circle, which indicates wholeness and purity. Then we have two semi-circles on the side, with semi-circles obviously implying a break from that wholeness. Possibly indicating that the Kor-Azor Family is the most pure of the royal families, with the whole circle indicating Kor-Azor and the semi-circles indicating the other royal Houses.
*Edit* Apparently, Kor-Azor uses a Wiccan symbol. The Triple Moon. This seems to fit Articio quite a lot.
Triple Moon
The first crescent represents the waxing phase of the moon — new beginnings, new life, and rejuvenation. The center circle is symbolic of the full moon, the time when magic is at its most potent and powerful. Finally, the last crescent represents the waning moon — a time to do banishing magic, and to send things away.
-bookofshadowsblog.wordpress.com (http://bookofshadowsblog.wordpress.com/my-book-of-shadows/symbols/)
Tash-Murkon... I have no idea.
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I like those explanations, Samira!
As for the Galente, since roman times, the eagle is seen as glory/power/nobility/might/etc. It could easily be accepted it remained so until EVE times, afterall even now-days the americans see themselves as the eagle, more than 2000 years after the romans started using it.
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I just want to throw in the idea that there are certain pragmatic ideas behind CCP's original construction of these signs. They could have gone with very abstract and original ideas but ultimately they may not have meant much to the players. For much the same reason that we recycle signs in the real world because their signified meanings are nearly universal, CCP would have drawn on inspiration from real life in order to convey meaning to players.
With a Western audience, using an eagle (or phoenix?) to symbolize the Gallente Federation is a choice that allows the developers to instantly and accurately convey certain information about the values system of that culture.
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With a Western audience, using an eagle (or phoenix?) to symbolize the Gallente Federation is a choice that allows the developers to instantly and accurately convey certain information about the values system of that culture.
:D
(http://etw.heavengames.com/galleries/10/0000/0744/Faction_Prussia_1231338282_2012.jpg)
I know what you're trying to say and I do agree to some point - but it's not like eagles are an uncommon choice throughout human history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_heraldry). I've selected prussia only as an example.
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-os3I2moO81Q/Tqo7DFP9mXI/AAAAAAAAAFw/WI0EgYOPQ9Q/s400/1280x1024-minmatar.jpg)
Well, it's a hilariously badly thought out idea which I just came up with in about 5 seconds, but it could represent an enslaved nation "coming out of it's shell" so to speak.
I'll have to think about this more thoroughly, and check evelopedia though.
Me and Ava theorized that each segment represented one of the original minmatar colonies before the day of darkness.
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The icon for the Khumaak might look quite alike the Ardishapur family seal (and there is some reason for that) but the description that is given is not quite like that. According to EVElopedia the Khumaak "is a three-foot rod with a spiked solar disc on the top, the design of the original relic believed to date back to the pre-Reclaiming era of Amarrian prophet Dano Geinok. It isn't believed to have been intended as a weapon originally, but as a rod of command for high-ranking members of the Amarrian Conformist clergy." Thus, we see that the Khumaak is originally an Amarrian insignia, appropriated by the Matari as a symbol of rebellion.
I don't think that the Kador family employs the first sign, which is a circle with a triangle at its base: it is, after all, two semi circles within a semi circle with a triangle. The semi circles refer to the break between god and man. As the semicircles don't intersect, there is no imperfect reunion and even less any full reunion. I'd think the multiple circles would indicate a plural 'men', and thus a less abstract level than the "man (in general)". After the fall It's more like "Men fallen, but upheld/elevated/exalted by God."
The Kor-Azor seal I'd as well interpret in another way: I don't think that the other houses would tolerate a seal that is parading a 'you are lessors' massage. Also, Kor-Azor isn't reknown for it's purity,but for being diplomats: One more reason not to flaunt a diplomatic faux-pas as ones seal. Given that they are reputed to be negotiators and great compromise makers, it might rather represent unity (e.g. by treaty) (the central circle) come to by two parties (the semi circles to the sides) or something like that. So 'd suggest it means "Unity between men".
I really don't think it's meant to be the 'wiccan' triple moon symbol.
The Tash-Murkon seal is out of character as far we've seen before. I'd think that it might represent benefit through trade or wealth. But that's idle speculation and would prolly be a bit 'in your face'.
The Sarum seal, I agree, seems to depict crossed swords. The interpretation of the double guards as indicating the spirit and the earth-. Croosed swords traditionally represent military might, pointing upwards "ready to fight". I'm not saying that IRL symbology should inform us in interpreting Amarr symbolism, but it's quite fitting for Sarum. As question to me remains, why is there the dot between the weaknesses of the swords?
Then, there is the old, original Khanid seal: an ornate eye positioned inside a triangle. I think the triangle indicates the trinity of God - Emperor - Council of Apostles/TC. Maybe it indicates that they were overseers over the Khanid lands for God, Emperor and Council?
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With a Western audience, using an eagle (or phoenix?) to symbolize the Gallente Federation is a choice that allows the developers to instantly and accurately convey certain information about the values system of that culture.
:D
(http://etw.heavengames.com/galleries/10/0000/0744/Faction_Prussia_1231338282_2012.jpg)
I know what you're trying to say and I do agree to some point - but it's not like eagles are an uncommon choice throughout human history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_heraldry). I've selected prussia only as an example.
Yeah, it will still mean different things to different people, the widest gap in the West perhaps being between Europeans and Americans. But the image of the eagle is so ingrained in Western minds anyway that it becomes difficult *not* to use it to symbolize our style of governance.
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I really don't see it as a symbol of the 'western style of govenance', but as a direct quotation of the Roman "Aquila" in almost all western cases at least. One has to remember that it was the symbol of the roman legions and thus not of a style of governance, but military might. It's spread wings indicated that the legions were protected by Jupiter. Through the might of the legions the roman eagle made it's way to a symbol of the Roman Empire.
The Eagles in western countries are usually reminiscent of the Aquila. The military symbolism is as well clear with the American Eagle on the great seal, as the olive branch and arrows in his claws are supposed to indicate "the power of peace & war which is exclusively vested in Congress". I think it's as well consensus that the founders of the United States were fond of comparing their new republic with the Roman Republic.
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The icon for the Khumaak might look quite alike the Ardishapur family seal (and there is some reason for that) but the description that is given is not quite like that. According to EVElopedia the Khumaak "is a three-foot rod with a spiked solar disc on the top, the design of the original relic believed to date back to the pre-Reclaiming era of Amarrian prophet Dano Geinok. It isn't believed to have been intended as a weapon originally, but as a rod of command for high-ranking members of the Amarrian Conformist clergy." Thus, we see that the Khumaak is originally an Amarrian insignia, appropriated by the Matari as a symbol of rebellion.
Err, I never said it's a Minmatar symbol. I said that the Khumaak, as in the original rod design, almost exactly depicts the Ardishapur symbol. The only difference is that the top bar is a circle instead of a bar. The spiked solar disc is still the eye of God. Considering that the Holder who wielded the Khumaak as a rod of power was an Ardishapur, I'd say it's pretty clear that the Ardishapur Family took that symbol from Geinok as their own, and crafted their rods of power based on that symbol. I don't know the difference in meaning between the double-barred cross and the double-circled cross, but I would assume that the Khumaak variation meant something like "God watches over the rulers of the Empire".
(http://imageshack.us/a/img715/5527/ardishapurkhumaak.jpg)
And the symbol is exactly as I described it, because it's the only royal seal that is given a description in PF (aside from the Imperial/Khanid seals). (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ardishapur_Family#Family_Seal)
The Ardishapur Family seal features a stylized eye sitting atop an inverted double-barred cross. The eye is meant to represent the eye of God, watching over the Ardishapur Family. The cross is an old heraldric symbol, dating back thousands of years. It is interpreted as being a combination of two older symbols, one representing the spirit and the other representing the earth.
Taken as a whole, the symbol is interpreted to mean “God watches over the soul of the Empire”. Opponents of the Ardishapur often claim the cross is impaling the eye and joke the symbol stands for “Blind to God by worldly cares”.
I don't think that the Kador family employs the first sign, which is a circle with a triangle at its base: it is, after all, two semi circles within a semi circle with a triangle. The semi circles refer to the break between god and man. As the semicircles don't intersect, there is no imperfect reunion and even less any full reunion. I'd think the multiple circles would indicate a plural 'men', and thus a less abstract level than the "man (in general)". After the fall It's more like "Men fallen, but upheld/elevated/exalted by God."
(http://imageshack.us/a/img96/5385/kadorsymbol.jpg)
I didn't say they employed it exactly, I said they used one clearly inspired by it. It looks halfway between the first sign and the standard semi-circle sign. It's three-quarters, which indicates to me a near-reunion with God. Still not complete, but also not quite as broken as before.
"Men fallen, but upheld/elevated/exalted by God," might be a more accurate meaning, yes.
The Sarum seal, I agree, seems to depict crossed swords. The interpretation of the double guards as indicating the spirit and the earth-. Croosed swords traditionally represent military might, pointing upwards "ready to fight". I'm not saying that IRL symbology should inform us in interpreting Amarr symbolism, but it's quite fitting for Sarum. As question to me remains, why is there the dot between the weaknesses of the swords?
RL symbology is already explicitly used on the Ardishapur symbol. And by double guards, I'm referring to the crossguard (the hilt). Both swords have two crossguards, which makes them appear as double-barred crosses. We already see Ardishapur using the combined-spirit-earth symbol, hence my assumption that the Sarum swords having two crossguards each might indicate similar. The fact that they are curved, though, might indicate something else, though.
I'm also curious as to the meaning of the dot. A filled circle often means fullness, completeness, but how that relates to the swords I'm unsure of.
*Edit* It should be noted, that the Imperial Navy also uses a filled circle, and in the same burnished orange color. Likely intended to have similar meanings. Interestingly, all the planetside military units/manufacturers use stars, while Navy, Crusade, and Sarum all use circles.
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My point is that I think that the icon CCP used for the Khumaak item and the description in the text don't really match: there is no mention of any cross-thingies along the shaft of the Khumaak and an eye on top is in my mind something else entirely than a "spiked solar disk".
I don't think that the Ardishapur have as their seal the insignia that came to be known as the Hand of Maak.
As to the Sarum seal, I see one of my sentences got mangled: "The interpretation of the double guards as indicating the spirit and the earth-." was meant to go on, instead of being broken off with a "-.", with "is something I find very interesting and fitting." :)
As to the point/filled circle, i will have a look at the seals you mentioned. :)
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-os3I2moO81Q/Tqo7DFP9mXI/AAAAAAAAAFw/WI0EgYOPQ9Q/s400/1280x1024-minmatar.jpg)
Well, it's a hilariously badly thought out idea which I just came up with in about 5 seconds, but it could represent an enslaved nation "coming out of it's shell" so to speak.
I'll have to think about this more thoroughly, and check evelopedia though.
Me and Ava theorized that each segment represented one of the original minmatar colonies before the day of darkness.
Could be. Of course it's likely only coincidence but it does bear a striking resemblance to the current symbol of the world pantheist movement. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Panth%C3%A9isme.JPG)
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As to the Kador symbol, Samira, I see your point with the three-quarter circle, but I'm honestly not quite sure whether one should take it as indication of near-reunion and I tend against it, honestly. It'd be more a kind of "recreation" of first man, in my book. <.<
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I, for one, hope that khuumaks don't actually look like candle holders.
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I dunno, I think you could make this khuumak into a fairly neat candlestand
(http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images/e/ea/Khumaak.jpg)
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(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iEBq-0hPYPw/UPCVZfZnsbI/AAAAAAAAAZE/jucQKj3RN4w/s1600/gallente.jpg)
FREEDOM IS THE ON-LY WAY YEAH
But yeah no this should be self explanatory.
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I dunno, I think you could make this khuumak into a fairly neat candlestand
(http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images/e/ea/Khumaak.jpg)
That one looks like a proper Khumaak, yes. :)
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Then, there is the old, original Khanid seal: an ornate eye positioned inside a triangle. I think the triangle indicates the trinity of God - Emperor - Council of Apostles/TC. Maybe it indicates that they were overseers over the Khanid lands for God, Emperor and Council?
Nah ;)... is just my BS: See here (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=361868#post361868) :lol:. As Wyke rightful mention, I took a eye of horus and add it in a "typical" Khanid triangle.
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That's not an IC explanation, though...
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That's not an IC explanation, though...
True. I just wanted pointed out so there isnt any misunderstanding.
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I throw in some of my Ideas on the symbolism, to be more precisely: Three symbols which we and have talk.
The Emperor/Empress seal:
(http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images/1/1d/Emperor_Seal.PNG)
My IC interpretation would be: Maybe a victor/victory symbol. As the emperor/empress is the victor of the trails.
The Privy Council seal:
(http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images/0/0c/Privy_Council_2.0.png)
My IC interpretation would be: That the rows are the fifteen seats* (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Kiss_of_the_Soul_%28Chronicle%29). The parquet is for whom which like to speak. The main seat behind plenum is for the empress/emperor (as she doesnt take a place in the rows; just the proxy sits in the rows, when she is unable to attend..
The Royal Heirs seal:
(http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images/b/b3/Royal_Heirs_Seal_%28transparent%29.png)
My IC interpretation would be: That it is a symbol of the Five Heirs and the Five Families, which together gives 10 sunrays/sunbeams.
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Beating slavers to death with a candlestick seems pretty epic tbh.
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Beating slavers to death with a candlestick seems pretty epic tbh.
Candelabrum?
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I don't think that the Kador family employs the first sign, which is a circle with a triangle at its base: it is, after all, two semi circles within a semi circle with a triangle. The semi circles refer to the break between god and man. As the semicircles don't intersect, there is no imperfect reunion and even less any full reunion. I'd think the multiple circles would indicate a plural 'men', and thus a less abstract level than the "man (in general)". After the fall It's more like "Men fallen, but upheld/elevated/exalted by God."
(http://image.eveonline.com/Corporation/1000087_256.png)
I didn't say they employed it exactly, I said they used one clearly inspired by it. It looks halfway between the first sign and the standard semi-circle sign. It's three-quarters, which indicates to me a near-reunion with God. Still not complete, but also not quite as broken as before.
"Men fallen, but upheld/elevated/exalted by God," might be a more accurate meaning, yes.
I believe both are correct in assuming multiple circles are plural and would like to add the relation to the Blood Raider Covenant symbol.
Three things:
First, The Apocryphon (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Apocryphon) quote:
"My word lies within all,
All it requires is the breath of faith,
To ignite the fire,
So the lost can find their way,
So the fallen can rise,
To take their place as my chosen,
For you are all my creation,
And are all equal in my kingdom."
Second, to take the above quote into context. The Kador symbol with multiple circles, "Men fallen, but upheld/elevated/exalted by God". I believe the Blood Raider Covenant would use the same concept, only with two equal sized semi circles representing man and god being "Man fallen, but upheld/elevated/exalted by God" and "And are all equal in my kingdom" god included.
And third, Holy Statue (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Holy_Statue):
Holy statue made by the Takmahl people, depicting their god.
Indicates the Sani Sabik and by relation the Blood Raider Covenant have seen god and have a depiction of it. I believe what they may have seen as god is a crystal skull or at least that is the depiction they have carried along.
And just like that, the depiction of god overlaid on the two semi circles becomes the Blood Raider Covenant symbol:
(http://image.eveonline.com/Corporation/1000134_256.png)
Note: The "horns/semi circles" are not a part of the skull, but appear to be behind it.
(Also note https://image.eveonline.com/ (https://image.eveonline.com/) for corporation images supported resolutions ;) )
Edit: It was mentioned to me that the intersecting circles may symbolize something as well. I believe, if anything, they symbolize the covenant between man and god, in this case literally through Blood.