Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE Fiction + Fiction discussion => Topic started by: Wanoah on 14 Feb 2011, 17:35
-
I'm talking about this place:
http://www.evechronicles.com
I notice that there's a bunch of stories there by people that are inactive - some of them for a long time. E.g. Herko. Now, this has me thinking about the ethics of such things. I assume that whoever is running the site hasn't been able to contact the inactives to ask their permission to reproduce their work. Or maybe they have? I don't know. Perhaps someone can shed some light?
Right, the ethics bit. On the one hand, you have people that wrote Eve-related fiction and effectively agreed to publish it with one site or other, or on the Eve-O forums. You could argue that it is unethical to appropriate their stuff and publish it on your site without permission. I think I might feel slightly aggrieved if someone did that with my stuff. Especially if the site publishing it was one promoting something I disagreed with, or making money in some way. On the other hand, there's a real case for salvaging old material from defunct websites and republishing it on current, maintained sites so that it is preserved. People wrote their stories in the hope that people will read them and enjoy them without any expectation of financial gain and may well be happy that their stories continue to be read by someone out there, even if they have lost interest themselves. What do people think?
Optional background bit starts here:P
This isn't just some shapeless musing, either. There's something specific I have in mind here. Bear with me while I tell a little story. Back in the days of yore, I was a somewhat inactive :bittervet: but I maintained an interest in all things Eve fiction and to a lesser extent, all things Eve RP. I still had several Eve fiction projects ticking over, and this was my primary interest. At this point in time, we had forums, but no decent venue to publish fiction. Forums are OK for very short stories, but they begin to suck pretty damn hard once you get past a few hundred words. Besides, what if you wanted to include original artwork? CCP didn't exactly offer you much, and the Chatsubo wasn't the forum of choice for a growing number of people. So, I figured I'd gather some people and make a website to fill this particular gap, with a side order of community if required. It would be called Eve Fiction.
I knew that I wouldn't have sufficient time to do everything myself, so I recruited other people. I was happy to provide hosting and to do some admin stuff, but I'm no web developer and no designer, and I knew that if too much relied on me, it would all go horribly wrong. So, with team recruited, Eve Fiction was born.
We launched, and in the beginning, it all looked quite promising. Sadly though, too much devolved to me and the team quickly reduced to only me. It's always a gamble working with virtual strangers on the Internet, and it didn't pay off for me this time. I'd hoped to be able to set the ball rolling and watch as it careered down the slope accreting works of fiction as it went. As it turned out, I simply became a bottleneck. The CMS became a millstone. The project had largely failed, but maybe I could rescue something out of the wreckage.
With many of the side projects abandoned due to lack of interest and lack of resource, it made sense to simplify and streamline to accommodate the central purpose of the site: publishing people's works of fiction. I migrated to Wordpress for an easy life. Migrating data was superficially easy, but author names were lost in the transition. It became an arse to sort it out. The task to sort it out hung around on to do lists glaring balefully at me for a while. Then, the gathering momentum of the TonyG version of Eve saw me fall out of love with Eve quite drastically and I ignored the whole thing.
End of optional background story ^^
So, here I am with a bunch of Eve fiction in two databases, most of it unpublished. It nags at me. I should do something with it. I should put the Eve Fiction project to bed. 'Cept it's :effort:. I'd quite like to simply hand it all over to someone with the time and energy to do something good with it. Perhaps the guy running Chronicles of Eve would be just the person to do that. Problem is that I'm not sure that I have the right to do that. Opinions?
-
Depends on your definition of ethics. I'm fairly certain legal ethics would say that the authors don't own those works as they are drawn heavily from CCP intellectual property. I'm not sure they've specifically copyrighted "Mordu's Legion" just to pick an example, but I am sure they'd be able to demonstrate a superior claim to the term and I'd certainly find myself in trouble if I were to publish content for profit that included a reference to it without being licensed usage rights (which would probably be contingent upon their oversight and approval, as well). Obviously, historical patterns indicate their interest is in allowing a great deal of free reign to create supplemental content and allowing it circulate among fans as a retention tool as long as direct profit is not being made. Website advertising revenues seems to get a pass in this regard.
Interpersonal ethics get murkier, and basically you'll get as many opinions as their are respondents (maybe more :9).
-
I think there is contact details for both in-game contact and OOG contact there.
-
I've talked to the guy who runs Eve Chronicles. As far as I know, he has got in contact with everyone he could to obtain posting permission; I insisted he do it when we spoke, in fact, and if he's not posting links to the original material, he ought to be.
Personally, I approve of efforts like this and the one you're talking about. A massive chunk of the Eve universe is formed in the players' heads; those who can write have the ability to influence how other players view that same world. The creation of the world as a living, breathing entity in itself is a community effort, built on the inspiration engendered by the game and its players, and it's a terrible shame to lose bits of it as time passes.
Provided the maintainer of such a collection earns nothing from it -- donations from the community to maintain web presence are acceptable but personal profit is not -- credits the creators appropriately, and is willing to remove items if the creators object, I don't see anything wrong with it. Creators should be notified of the use of their work whenever possible.
Think of it less as a personal project and more of a community service :)
-
I didn't even know my Guide is up there...woo! Gotta update it though.
-
I have a micro-fiction up there. It was, I think, initially put up without my permission, but I was later contacted and the guy was very polite about saying that he'd take it down if I wanted. In hindsight, I suppose Shae had something to do with that. I don't know about the ethics of it, per se, but having someone think enough of your material to repost it so more people will see it.... I found that pretty flattering.
-
Well, I'm still undecided.
I realised that I had been approached by the guy running the site regarding republishing Barriers there - I didn't really put two and two together. I replied to his Evemail, but my sub ran out before I could check for a response. Ho hum.
-
Funny that I'm just now seeing this thread...anyways, I'm the bloke "running" the Chronicles of Eve website, although lately, I wouldn't apply the verb "running" to what I've done on it, which is precisely nothing. I've been quite busy working on a big project that I hope to finish and publish within a couple of months.
I appreciate this thread; actually, this was something that cropped up quite early in my efforts to put up something online that was analogous to CCP's official "Chronicles"...that is, Eve fiction with its own online space, along with some artwork. Initially, I put up some stuff without permission, with my own artwork added. Part of the reason for that, was (as Wanoah pointed out), people like Herko were no longer contactable, and some of his work needed and deserved its own space with its own artwork, in my opinion. Quite an arbitrary point of view, and of course, with, incidentally, the artwork chosen being quite arbitrary, of course, I realize. But, I'm sure that many will agree with me.
It was only after being contacted by Ciarente Roth that it occurred to me to actually ask for permission to post these works online. Duh...I should have thought about that, but, no biggie, I rectified her work, by putting a big note at the beginning of her stories, explaining that hers was part of a long story-arc, and directed the reader to her website.
In fact, all of the featured writers - if they actually run websites - are linked into my website, often directly from the story, for which they receive credit. And, of course, I have always given credit to them for their stories.
With regard to the issue of making money off of the site...I am in an affiliate relationship with CCP and BattleClinic...neither of which has paid off. Which is fine, because I don't care about making money off of the site; I didn't put up a fiction site because I need money; in RL, I am actually quite highly-paid, and have the additional perk of actually controlling so much of my time, that much of my work for the site got done at work. Not bragging, just thankful that I have what I have (while I have it!). I actually probably spend about 20% of my day working on fiction-related projects at work (I hope this doesn't come back to bite me later in RL...). So, the site is for my own personal pleasure, and I had hoped, for the reading pleasure of at least a couple of the EVE Online public. Furthermore, when I used stories, not only did I make efforts to get permission, but I usually made a nominal reimbursement of between 2,000 to 5,000 isk per word (I said it was nominal). At the time, I couldn't afford to pay more than that; if and when I decide to start posting folk's works, I will pay a lot more, now that I can.
As far as the "ethics" of posting fan fiction...depending on one's point of view, the whole issue of fan fiction could be interpreted as not only an ethical violation of a company's original work, but also a legal one. As far as I understand it, CCP actually encourages fan fiction, so there really is no ethical issue at hand; if someone else wants to take another's work, and use it, alter it, trash it, etc., there really is nothing that could be done...or even anything that should be said.
Morally, on the other hand, it would seem to be the right thing to do to obtain permission from someone to publish their work. If one would like to be perceived as an honest and upstanding member of a community, then it would seem that obtaining permission to post, giving credit where credit is due, paying for the work, linking a website in with the work, etc., would be the right thing to do - not that the game actually encourages such behavior, now that I think about it. Nevertheless, these are things that I've attempted to do, in order to give the site - and by extension, myself - some credibility in the eyes of the EVE Online reading community. In fact, in many of the longer works, I generally have added an International Creative Commons License [prohibiting alteration of the work], things that were not in the original work.
Not that I'm saying that this subject is not valid; as I mentioned earlier, I appreciate this thread, and am glad that this matter is being discussed. It's actually been a good avenue to get my thoughts on this subject out in the open. And I thought that since this thread had to do with my site, I ought to have thrown in my own two cents-worth, also.
If anyone views my viewpoint as fallacious...I'm quite open to your suggestions, thoughts, advice, recriminations, etc.
Art
-
Just came back to check if there were any replies to this thread. Now that I'm here, I think I should add something that I forgot to add last time; which is that approximately fifty percent of the stories that I have posted on the site, were actually stories that writers themselves sent to me wishing for them to be posted on the site (these folks were paid for their contributions as well). Almost to a person, none of them presented illustrations with their stories, but hoped that I could whip something up. I'm not an illustrator, but Photoshop works wonders, and I composited illustrations together that would hopefully capture the essence of the story. While it is true that the stories written by Herko were posted without his express permission, I do believe that at this point in time, without communication from him for so long, these stories would possibly become "public domain", although the exact term really does not apply, as these stories are not copyrighted. Nonetheless, I hope people appreciate that there is a place where these stories can reside with a simple illustration provided to accompany them.
Additionally, I will soon be looking to start posting stories on the site again (as soon as I'm finished with this huge project I'm working on). I will be looking to pay writers for their contributions (10,000 isk per word - again, not much, but when you run into stories that are thousands of words long, it amounts to a sizeable payment. Those offering an appropriate, fairly "professional-looking" image will be offered an extra ten million isk). Any and all who have dealt with me in the past can testify that I am a man of my word.
Thanks,
Art
-
I missed this thread the first time around.
I have quite mixed feelings about the site for a number of reasons.
Is it strange that one of the most galling was seeing a piece of fiction published there without permission and with a word that had been asterisk-blocked by the CCP filter replaced with the wrong word.
Just... "Grah!".
-
I missed this thread the first time around.
I have quite mixed feelings about the site for a number of reasons.
Is it strange that one of the most galling was seeing a piece of fiction published there without permission and with a word that had been asterisk-blocked by the CCP filter replaced with the wrong word.
Just... "Grah!".
Which piece was that, may I ask?
Art
-
Which piece was that, may I ask?
Replied privately.
-
To clear the record from here on out...if any author has an issue with one of their stories being posted at Chronicles of Eve, I will be more than happy to remove the webpage. That offer stands even if I have paid you for being able to post your story on the site. As I mentioned before, I have no desire to appropriate anyone else's work, and have always exerted myself to give credit where credit was due.
Thanks.
Art
-
Just ran across the thread, thanks for adding artwork for "Impossible Child."
What mechanism did you use to try and contact folks? I (character: Dex Nederland) do not recall being contacted, but that may be a fault of the contact medium and not you.
-
Hey Dex:
I'm actually at a "meeting" at the moment, but I'll resend te original email to you. You may not remember, but I received a reply from you via the in-game email system. When I get home, I'll mail you a copy of our communications.
Art
-
No worries; I am fine with it. Just didn't remember.
-
People wrote their stories in the hope that people will read them and enjoy them without any expectation of financial gain and may well be happy that their stories continue to be read by someone out there, even if they have lost interest themselves.
I've written several pieces of EVE fiction... While i'd be pissed off if someone was profiting from something i'd written if i wasn;t getting a good cut, i'd definitely want other people that're really enjoying the EVE Universe to read my stories about New Eden and really "get" what i wrote.
While most online fiction writers place no caveats on their work, i do agree that its in the public domain and while some may argue the 'moral' or 'ethical' points, i feel that the point is being missed: its fiction made BY fans FOR fans, and as such, imho what it comes down to is whether the use of the old fiction written by long-forgotten players is within the spirit of why it was written in the first place.
Wordy.
In short, that stuff was written to be enjoyed by a community as a whole, and i'd be very surprised if anyone came out the woodwork and started complaining that their work is somehow being misused if it is among an archive of collected EVE fiction.
RC
-
This sounds like a discussion straight out of library school. The currents are always treacherous in the waters between preservation, use, and permissions. I'm taking classes in digital libraries and copyright law this fall, so perhaps then I can contribute something better than be aware of the TOS of whichever forums the fiction originates from. :)
-
I am a slow reader, which is a huge disadvantage since I enjoy reading, and would love to be able to assimilate all the apocryphal fiction put out by the wonderful base of writers we have in EVE.
However unpopular I may be for saying so, when it comes to EVE fiction in particular, I am much more drawn to works that contribute to the 'world building' aspect of personal fiction. I love to see when a writer takes a deep understanding of prime fiction, gives it their own twist through the lens of their character(s), and extends or extrapolates scenarios based on that.
Unfortunately (for me) this means that I end up missing a lot of good fiction, such as character blogs, IGS threads, etc. which appear to deal solely with character plotlines within the established PF but do not offer significant contribution to the base material.
All this to say that I wish there was an easier way to categorize between the two types of fiction, but the problem is likely too steeped in my own biases to allow simple classification. This is because, for example, I find in some cases I can form a better understanding of life and culture in Amarr is based on one cleric's poem, than some lengthier stories which exhibit deep character development but devote little attention to the broader society, the intricate workings of the surroundings, or the imagined history of a people/place.
:s